Which FLY TYING VISE do I buy?!?
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2021
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Stonfo Transformer - • The Stonfo Transformer...
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Renzetti Traveler - amzn.to/2OwIC9q
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Peak vise - amzn.to/38G4FkT
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Regal Revolution - amzn.to/3vsX9n5
Regal Medallion - amzn.to/2OxBGJ9
Norvise - • Fly Tying: Norvise Sys...
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Regal Travel vise - amzn.to/3lgztxH
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Other unique vises:
HMH TRV vise - amzn.to/3vpcLIq
Cottarelli vise - amzn.to/3volSZO
Euro nymphing setup:
Rod: Orvis Helios 3F 10'6" 3 weight - amzn.to/3djzyuV
Reel: Ross Evolution LTX - amzn.to/2Nf0pxu
Line: Cortland Competition Braid Core - amzn.to/2NbZv4Z
Orvis Safe Passage Sling: amzn.to/2C2Akzs
Tippet: Cortland Ultra Premium - amzn.to/2VDeMjZ
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Buying a fly tying vise is no easy decision! This video goes over the main types of vises, as I share similarities, differences, and characteristics I look for when purchasing. Suggestions are given to help when you ask others for advice. This is a very personal decision that relates to the types of flies that you tie. Good luck making a decision, and feel free sharing this video with others who are also considering a new vise.
If you have any thoughts or questions based on this video, please leave them down below in the "Comments" section or you can email me: tcammisa@gmail.com
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Music credit: Joe Clark
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I’ve tied for 30+ years and this is an excellent discussion of vise options for anyone. Well done!
Had to come back and few this again you pack a lot of info in this video with great recommendations. All of which are excellent. Good job. Tim
Hi from Kansas City 🎣🤠. I've been tying for 65 years and still have the fire 🔥 for flytying. Enjoyed your show today and agreed with you on all points. When I was a kid your vicegrips was always in my tackle box,so I could make a fly to match the hatch in the boat. 🎣🤠. Dave Hughes
Hi Dave, and I hear you have some great BBQ sauce over there! ;-) This is the SECOND comment today I've responded to where others have tied with Vise-Grips...small world! I truly appreciate you taking the time to comment. If you're able, please share this video with some friends to keep the fun going. Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Well, you could always go with the vise Lee Wulff used!!! Your hands. Actually of late, I have been tying on an older Renzentti traveler. I like the rotary feature. I find I can set a wire rib much more precisely. It's a little short in the arm I may upgrade it. I tied on first-generation Regal, I still have that one, very simple to use. I also tied and still tie on an HMH. I do own a Dyna King Professional, that I guess I had had since around 1988. I tied commercially on that one for quite a few years. And I still have my vise I started with a Thompson A. What to buy I don't know since it's such a personal thing. With the jaws they do offer now, I think from an ease of use and hook range- Regal is the one. I am going to buy a new Regal it will be 40 years since I bought the first-gen. There is a lot of good vises around these days even a few custom-made machine jobs with price tags to match.
Thanks Tim. Your videos are exceptionally well done and informative. I've noticed exactly that - everyone has an opinion on 'the best vice'. But, like you said, what's best for them may not be best for you. I started on the Renzetti Traveller 2000. It was good and and did its job really well, but being big handed,, it became small for me. I then bit the bullet and bought a Dyna-King Barracuda. A tank. Robust as they get. I loved it, BUT, I soon realised hook sizes in size 8 to 10 which were round (rather than flat) would slip. I emailed Dyna-King several times and was told to tighten the adjusting cone more. To be honest, its the best jaw for salt water fly tying IMO (the two slots hold large hooks 4/0-8/0 amazingly well), but it's definitely not the best for fresh within the previously mentioned hook types. I bit the bullet again and purchased Dyna-King's midge jaws, but also found they didn't hold these hooks all that well either. After some thought, I decided to look into a different vise and saw your review on the the Norvise 'system'. A few weeks later I was tying on the revolutionary Norvise system and think its the one for me. Is it perfect? No. Sometimes spinning quickly and the auto bobbins can be a pain, but once you get the hang of it, it's a great system as you rightly pointed out. Just as I thought that was it for me with vises, I'm now looking into the another one haha.
Thanks for the kind words and I hope to hear more from you on some of my other videos. It sounds like we definitely are similar and have both tied on some great vises...but there's always "one more" to try! ;-) Tim www.troutandfeather.com
I’ve had my eyes on the Stonfo Elite for a while now. I don’t really have a need for the full transformer setup. The Elite just has everything I want…parachute clip, rotary handle, expandability, etc.
Love my Stonfo Transformer per your review. It's met all of my needs.
Tim, excellent video on one of the most asked about fly tying subjects . Like you I have been tying a long time and when the Renzetti traveler came out it changed my world of tying . Tied with it exclusively for many years went through two sets of jaws all my tying was for trout but when I started going after larger fish found out I was limited to hook size with this vice . Looked around spoke with my tying friends and people who were tying salt water patterns , salmon , pike etc and purchased a Dyna King . Today for big flys I use the Dyna King for smaller flies the Renzetti . I wish when I was looking for a vice that could do it all the Stonfo Transformer was available, my friend has one and was kind enough to let me use it for a couple of months what a versatile vice , Rotary head , streamer head and tube fly head easy set up wow .
Tim the problem with buying vises, is (for a Neophyte in particular) they cannot try out a vice or rather all types of vices (not brands). I started with a pressed steel vice that came in the 1969 kit my dad bought me. It was a terrible vice but to me, it was wonderful. I tied with that silly little voice for years. I knew no better! I lived on Vancouver Island at the time and when I was five I got a job through my mother packaging his flies, but I was too young to think about vises. One day in about 1973/74 I got a call when a fellow I met I forget where, had a box of fly tying equipment for sale and I was introduced to the Thompson AA and that tied hundreds and hundreds of flies for me. It is sad that they don't exist anymore. That was a great vise for beginners or more experienced tyers.
I went to a Gryphon Odyssey rotary next and that tied another pile of flies for me, I sold it to a local fellow, it may still be working still. I bought a double headed Vosselar vise that was Maybe the best holding jaws in the industry. I tied with that for a good few years and then a friend of mine bought a Nor-vise and I knew immediately I wanted one. I sold off my vise and some well used saddles went to the fashion industry. Made enough to buy a Nor-Vise and an extra bobbin and a box of spools. Along with wading boots. I've been tying on the Nor-Vise for around 20 years now. I love the thing. The learning curve is steep but get through it and it will amaze you. Thanks for all the work you did on this Tim , I enjoyed it.
I owned the original Regal vise, and I now have a Standard, and a Magnum. I don't recommend the Magnum, all it is is the same jaw, cut as a single bevel rather than a double bevel, which given that the vise is angle adjustable doesn't make much difference. Though it makes the jaw look more massive in pictures. AND it actually opens up less than the Standard. My Standard will hold a 75 thou wire jig hook, that will not fit into the Magnum! On the other hand, being a single bevel the Magnum is actually finer at the tips, and holds a size 20 with more clearance. Though it can on occasion spit them out at velocity.
Regal has the best bite in the business, and I am happy with my purchases, because having bought both for teaching I can use whichever works best when I am using them. I would look them over carefully when deciding.
Thanks for sharing some thoughts with the Regal vises, they are a solid vise that has produced for many years! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Still loving the transformer after all these years thanks to your first review of it! Thanks for the info.
Hi Tim. Long time fan. I started like most with a kit style vise. Upgraded to a Renzetti Presentation 2000. Tied on it for years. Excellent vise. About a year ago I took the plunge (risk) and bought a J-Vise after years of eyeing it online and watching videos. Am I glad I did. I love it. Not only is it eye candy, the functionality is also the best. His unique “Goose Neck” design is super comfortable and has given me the best access to the back of the hooks I use. I tie an array of flies. From size 22-24 midges to 3/0 saltwater flies for yellowtail and calico bass. It’s been great. Holds the hook very well. He also has midge jaws but I haven’t yet swapped the standard. I haven’t had the need. I highly recommend this vise. Jay makes it South Africa and is a fantastic guy.
Thanks for sharing, Artin, and that vise has always looked like a special one. I appreciate your comments and thanks for taking the time. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Great Video Tim. I have to say I like watching your channel, your delivery is superb, you have a truly enthusiastic nature. I like tying flies and thought “mmm, I would like a new vice” I know who would know a few things. You video supplied me with the correct analytical approach to follow. I most tie carp fly’s at the moment. (I’m a fly fishing nut for UK carp!) Mostly tie in 6-12 size(8/10 being more frequent) Thanks for the information
David
Appreciate the kind words, David, and when you purchase a new vise, be sure to let me know which one and some thoughts on it. Good luck with the decision! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Overcome Temptation by fulfilling it! Keep them all Tim!!!!!
Great video as always. Love my Peak. Looked at a lot of vices.
Thanks, Russell, and I've heard good stuff about the Peak. Will you share with others the types of flies you tie and anything specific on the vise? I know some are looking for that one and any details may help them with the decision. Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Hi Tim I like the rensetti vice.
That'a a great, vise, Shane! Hope all is well. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
This is an incredibly good overview! Thank you!
Appreciate the kind words, and if you have any thoughts re: vises, be sure to add them in the comments section. Thanks again! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Thanks Tim. This is a very informative video. Wish I had access to it several years ago when I was searching.
You're welcome, Paul, and I appreciate the kind words. Which vise do you tie on today? Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Tim: I started with a Danville. I now use two vises: a DyaKing for my mid to larger flys. I have a Mayfly (an off brand developed by a friend of mine) for my smaller flyers.
Great demo Tim!
Great overview, thank you Tim
You're welcome, Lee, and I hope all is well! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
I haven't tried the Norvise. But with regular true rotary vises, I don't see a speed advantage. Human hands are pretty fast, and there are steps to preparing a rotary prior to using the rotation. Normally I would be done on a regular vise before I was set up to rotate a rotary. I haven't market tied in a while, but back when I did, nobody was using the true rotaries for production tying. Possibly that might have been cost, but I look at it this way. Non rotary vises are never set up like rotary vises. If rotary is not part of the package, you don't see awkward horizontal head angles with the hand rest being above the fly. One of the critical skills in tying is how your vise supports your weak hand, and how that hand supports your strong hand. All that is easier when the headstock of a vise is angled. Rotary is cool for beginners who want to check 360 for errors...
Some of this depends on the flies themselves. The more winding of materials the more rotary might have an advantage. For the most part, I don't see those flies being all that popular. Thread and floss bodies are not super popular, particularly on straight shank hooks.
Speaking of popular flies. A lot of them are tied on bent shank hooks that don't rotate well. So if one did have a thread body, it might be on a Polish nymph, or a jig nymph, with a body that was probably small, and usually is curved.
Appreciate the feedback, and I see all types of bodies tied with rotary-style vises, even dubbing noodles. But as I love to say, ask 10 tiers about their favorite vise, you're going to get 15 replies! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Great video, Tim! My daily vise is a Regal revolution, which I love. I also have a Kaiman for travel, but the lever on it is very hard to squeeze and it also curves away, which makes it even more uncomfortable. There are many great vises on the market, I wish I could have tried a few out before buying, but I’ll tie on my Revolution for many years to come.
How is the hard is the lever squeeze on the revolution?
@@fishdikk super easy
great video i would like a recommendation for a vise that can hold a 9/0 pole hook thanks for the help
Just a few words FYI. If you're still not shure how to pronounce the name of this vise, just take a look at the stylised bird image on the cover of the case and I think the hint will be evident to you as to what this italian word means and how it should be pronounced.
Thank you for your excellent videos, love them.
Again FYI, I'm a french canadian trout and salmon fly fisherman from Quebec and I love everything Stonfo.
Keep up your fantastic work and thank you again.
Thanks for the kind words and suggestion, Guy! Which vise were you referring to? Tim
Thank you, Tim. perfect, like always.
Thank you for the kind words...though "perfect" is a little much! ;-) Tim www.troutandfeather.com
I love my Regal Odyssey Spider vice with the new lever locking jaws...I had the former model with the screw locking jaws but have fallen in love with the new model levered jaws...I tie size 4 hooks through to 7/0 hooks on it and also find the rotary function handy...Great review mate and best regards from Australia...
B.J.sCustom Baits Australia...
Thanks for the kind words, and is this the one you mean: amzn.to/3rw8PCn I appreciate you taking the time to mention the hook sizes, too. Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
@@TimCammisa Yes mate sorry for the confusion but your right...My memory is a bit lacking these days... Even though it's a cheap vice it's a great vice to work with...best regards B.J.
I bought the Stonfo Transformer last year (upgraded from an old Renzetti Traveler) and love it except for two things: (1) I can't get the material spring to stay on--the screw that holds it in keeps working itself loose. (2) the stem is a little thicker than most other vise stems, and my old accessories that I mounted on my Renzetti stem (magnifier, lamp, waste bag, hackle gage) won't fit on the new Stonfo stem.
hi similar issue i used a small drop of engineers thread lock
I don't get mixing the cam lever and rotary as a type. Cam levers appeared on regular vises long before they appeared on rotary vises. Initially rotary vises had screw closing, as the Renzetti still offers. After 50 years of tying, I don't really have a preference. My HMH original has a lever, my Waldron has a screw. I don't really care. I don't really enjoy having to adjust to things to get a hook in. The only system that is decidedly superior is the Regal, but it comes with a lot of baggage as far as taking up a huge amount of space.
Thanks for the thoughts on vises, and great to know that you have 50 years of experience and still going strong! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Great video Tim. I am currently in the market to upgrade my vise and was thinking of the renzetti traveler. Seems to meet my needs and will be an improvement from my 1998 metz kit vise.
You got it, William, and if you select the Renzetti, be sure to check in with me after tying with it for a few months to let me know your thoughts: tcammisa@gmail.com Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
@@TimCammisa I actually went with the peak base camp vise.
Which vice do you like I saw the demo you did on the Stonfo Transformer & how good it was. I also watched the one on the Norvice. (These two were separate videos on RUclips of yours not this one).
My first vice was a cheap clamp style I bought for $50 AUS at a conventional Brisbane fishing expo. It was the only fly fishing product I found in the whole show. My next vice was the Danica which is quite good for the money. My last vice was a Renzetti Traveler vice. I want to get a new vice, I’m tossing up between getting a Regal or the Stonfo because it’s 3 in 1
I tie mostly Saltwater flies because we don’t have trout in Queensland but my wife is from NZ
I’ve watched this current video but would appreciate some advice, thanks Mr Cammis🧑🌾👍🎣🐟
A true honest review!
Thanks, Terry, and I tried to make it more informational than a review. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
I like my griffin montana mongoose vise, ive used vises 3 times more expensive and cant find feel, fit ,function difference enough to pony up the dough for any other vise.....360 rotary comes with accessories you would normally have to pay for ie: base, C clamp, bobbin rest, mterial rest. it travels but it would be a driver not a flyer the case it comes with is the sizze of a cordless drill but not as thick
Appreciate your comments about the vise, Spike. Do you Euro nymph with the 2 weight, or mainly dry flies? Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Tim, I started out using a cheap vise, like most of us. When you’re ready to move up from the initial vise, as you said this is the time to do a lot of research. I looked at it as an “investment”. Keep in mind, everyone has their particular “needs” and those needs have to dictate which vise you invest in. To continually purchase different vises will quickly add up to an investment of one of the first class systems or more. The second vise I was going to purchase was going to be my last vise. I compared every vise on the market and did my “pros” and “Cons”. I bought the Nor Vise System. I’ve tied hooks and tubes of every size. As you said, the Nor Vise has it all and does it all easily, fast and accurately with less effort. I had to modify the Nor Vise to meet my needs which made it much more friendly to use. This would be the same problem with every vise that I would have purchased. My feeling is, if you’re going to invest in a fly tying vise and you tie more then a few different size hooks and tubes, invest in a system that does it all. It will save you money in the long run.
Thanks for the comments, Richard, and you got a good one there. I'm curious, do you use it with the full rotary as intended, or do you prefer to lock the head in place and tie more traditional? Also, do you mind sharing the types and sizes of flies you typically tie, which will help others considering the Norvise? Thanks again! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
@@TimCammisa I use the full rotary as often as I can. It's like being thirsty, do you pass up a drink of water or do drink as much as you can? If you got it, use it! I made some modifications to the vise over the years to suit my needs and it made the vise much easier to use. Norm Norlander and I had many conversations since I bought the NorVise from him. There were modifications that I thought would make the NorVise better, but Norm didn't want to make the investments. So I made them myself.
I got my 1st vise, the Colorado Angler's Z797 fly tying kit for Christmas 2020. So far, nothing has worn out, but I've come to recognize the limitations. At the same time, I don't need a super expensive, top of the line, rotary vise. I'm looking for a sturdy, rotating vise, not necessarily a full rotary vise. I'm considering the Colorado Angler's 102 Supreme due to the price and simplicity. There's a vise out there for just about anyone's needs and budget.
Thanks for taking a moment to share your experience, and I'm glad you've found a vise for you! Do you mind sharing the types of flies that you tie and the water types you fish? Thanks again! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
So further to my other comment, this is what people need! They don't need someone to tell them to run and buy a Renzetti, Norvise, Peak, honestly they need to know what aspects of a vise are important and what are less important. Then they can go look. It surely would be nice if there was a way to tie on a bunch of vises so you have a better idea of what you will like. I have gone through a few, but not without trying to upgrade each time. There are some differences in the vises function but not many. I think Norvise is the only radically different vise there is. Tim can correct me if I'm wrong. Other than that you are just looking for a bunch of different features and Tim has done a great job. I have seen a lot of changes since I started in 1969, I think this pretty much sums them up.
Thanks for adding on, Kerry, and we're on the same page there! We're fortunate with so many excellent vises on the market today, each with positives that can steer someone in their direction. I appreciate you taking the time to comment and hope all is well! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Great presentation of various types of vices Tim. I have a Jvice and I enjoy it's simple yet great design and functionality. I'd like to get your feedback on it if you have an opportunity to test one.
Hi Roger, I've had a chance to use the Jvice in a very limited capacity. It sounds like you like yours, which is all that matters. Do you mind sharing the types of flies you tie on it? Thanks for the comments. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
As a lefty, I don't have much choices so I went with the Renzetti Traveler Saltwater 2200 Left Hand. Sure I could reach over to make adjustments on right handed vises but why? I want the adjustments in front of me for the full experience of "fly tying" without compromises.
Great suggestion, thanks for talking about it. That's a vise I don't have much knowledge about, thus any additional information you have to share is appreciated. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Good video but isn’t Dyna King the best rotary vise out there? It definitely should be mentioned at the very least. I’m not a pro but of all the vises I’ve used it was the best or close to it
No.
Thanks! 👍
Considering buying a new vice now I have a decent one now but want to upgrade
You have so many great options! When you narrow down your list, shoot me an email and I can offer suggestions: tcammisa@gmail.com
Buy Marc Petitjean, tried quite a few but MP is the one I`ll use…
Thanks for the comments, Bjorn. Can you give us a few details? Types of flies you typically tie, sizes, etc? Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Thanks for this posting. For what it's worth, after 50 years of fly tying; everything from midges to dumbell eyed pilchard imitations, I have found no better engineered vise than a Dyna-king Barracuda fitted with their standard jaws and bobbin hanger. As a secondary comment/observation, I am regularly puzzled as to why I see so many You Tube tutorials on tying a particular pattern, wherein the tyer is using a rotary vise, but still applies materials such as hackles, chenille, wire, synthetic ribbing, dubbed thread etc by wrapping rather than winding. I suspect that this may be because, in such instances, I never see them using the bobbin cradle/hanger that I know must have come with their vise. Could this be because they can't tie with the camera showing sufficient close-up detail of the actual fly construction, while also keeping the cradle in frame?? I'd appreciate people who know about such things disabusing me. Otherwise, I would strongly suggest they make that clear at the start of each tutorial posting. Failing to do this is, in my opinion, depriving many learners of the the very important opportunity to see just how superior a full rotary vise is.
Hi Will, and thanks for the comments and kind words. Re: rotary vises on RUclips, I can only speak to my videos personally. In short, I know not all tiers have a full rotary vise and many tie along with me on the videos. I want to ensure all are able to follow step-by-step throughout the process. From my comments in this video, I believe that full rotary vises are some of the finest out there and recommend them to many. Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts, and if you find out from others on RUclips, be sure to let me know their replies. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
@@TimCammisa The Feather Bender has said same thing in some of his videos. Not everyone uses a rotary vise and wants everyone to be able to keep up
Thanks for sharing
You're welcome, and if you have any questions, shoot me an email: tcammisa@gmail.com Tim
Instead of taping down the travel vise plate to prevent backward movement, why not use a separate C clamp to clamp the plate down?
Great suggestion, Tom, thanks for suggesting it! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
It would be nice if you had a gauge on your adjustor that gave hook size then just flip the cam never hurt jaws by overtightening
Thanks for the suggestion, Andrew, as I like that idea for beginner tiers. I hope all is well! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
I paid $125.-- for it, rotates 360 deg. And still services me well in 2022, bought in 1996.
Hi David, they make a great vise and glad you've enjoyed it. What types of flies do you prefer to tie? Tim
I still use a Rinzetti Traveler.
That's a SOLID vise and one I recommend frequently! Have you had to change the o-ring yet? Tim
@@TimCammisa Not yet, it's still smooth and solid.
Great video for people made of money. Sure would be nice if someone would help us get started with equipment that doesn’t cost a weeks wages.
I would REALLY like to see YOU do an independent comparison with the upper end vises like the Dyna King Ultimate Indexer, the Petitjean rotary and all the rest simply to critique their FUNCTION……REAL pros and cons !!!! It seems like everyone shy’s away from angering the gods of the top vise manufacturers….this would help US choose wisely and THEM to improve their vises if needed. I like your videos and value your opinion. L 👍🎣👍
Hi Leonard and thanks for the comments. I appreciate you as a viewer and I think if you've watched my videos, then you know my opinions of some favorites already. To do a pros/cons of more than a handful of vises will take a significant amount of time, as you know. Instead, I like to share with others some of the similarities and differences amongst vises, then encourage them to do digging based on the type they're looking for. If there is a vise you really like, I'd love to hear your thoughts why. Thanks again for the kind words! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
The Elite is elite!
Agreed, it's such a solid vise. Do you mind sharing the types and sizes of flies you tie to help others who are considering the Stonfo Elite? Thanks! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Best buy for the money is a Regal Vise..
Thanks for the comment, David. I saw that you purchased one in 1996, glad it's still going strong! What model do you prefer and what type of flies do you tie with it? Thanks! Tim
Don’t buy an expensive vice for your first vice. A high percentage of people find out they really don’t like tying flies as much as they think they will after spending a TON of money to get started. I bought a few starter kits and failed but ended if getting a decent like 75 dollar vice and buying some fly kits like smittys monthly fly box offers. Sportsman’s warehouse sells a few of the smittys kits. Pick one or two and tie as many as you can with the material they provide back to back. Then see if you still want to go further into it. Try the smittys tackle box beaded pheasant tail nymph it’s a good fly to get started on and the materials in the kit were pretty decent.
Thanks for the suggestion, Luke, and I do agree that spending closer to $100 will give most a better start when it comes to learning tying. A vise I plan on sharing with others is one I use for my fly tying classes: amzn.to/3M07GNJ This vise is far from perfect, but the ease of use and price point makes it a great starter vise! Thanks again. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
яка ціна
It depends on your country. Thanks for checking! Tim www.troutandfeather.com
Regal Revolution. Period. End of video.
Thanks for sharing, and are you able to offer some reasons why you prefer the Evolution (such as types of flies you tie, size range, etc.)? Regal makes an excellent vise for sure. Tim www.troutandfeather.com
The Stonfo Transformer gives the utility and quality of the Regal *and* a Renzetti, and for about the same money as just one of them. Period. End of statement.
You do more memory lane stuff than educating.
Hi Scott, thanks for taking a moment to comment. Let's cut to it: Which style of vise do you prefer? Tim www.troutandfeather.com
You can discuss these things 24/7. But for best advice on all matters you should go back to your bible. There we read that the Saints and all angels tie on various Renzetti vises. St. Peter has a Petitjean Master, and God himself ties on a LAW. That just about covers the correct pecking order, and alternatives are blasphemous.
I must have missed that section, for me, the Stonfo vises continue to be some of the best in the business! ;-) Tim www.troutandfeather.com