I think that there is more to this than many of us have realized, and I don't know if you're exactly on the right track, but I do feel like it's a worthwhile discussion to have. There's something interesting about the death animation, our tarnished sort of fades away with these silvery bubbles, and many enemies share this animation, namely larger enemies (likely to remove the large body from the playing space) but some enemies when we kill them they leave a physical body behind while others don't. And it's not as clear cut as we may think because we know that bosses like Godrick and Margit they leave behind a physical body, and it's almost withered and drained of all of it's vitality or strength, almost like we have absorbed what was keeping them alive. Really interesting stuff, hope you enjoy your playthrough of the expansion!
Yeah I’m 100% ok with my conclusion being wrong, I hope there is something, ANYTHING in the DLC that might shed light on this. If someone comes up with a better theory I am all ears. To your point about some enemies vanishing like we do upon death, another wrinkle is that some enemies vanish into a cloud of golden particles…like what is that about? But anyways, thanks for watching!
Nah, Those with grace are fated to live until they earn an Erdtree burial, which granted them an exit from the loop. The spirit ashes don't really make sense in some cases
Powerful enemies have to respawn otherwise you wouldn't see other tarnished reaching the same points of progression as you. Remember each tarnished needs two great runes to be given right to become Elden Lord. We aren't the only ones getting boss kills that's just what you see.
There are a couple of things in game that are contrary to this, namely what happens when you interact with a Rosus statue it says “Guide and gatekeeper for those returning to the roots” and the Rosus axe says “the dead easily lose their way, and have always been in sore need of a guiding hand” so those seem to imply that Rosus guides spirits of the dead to the roots and that Erdtree burial was only done for the most “honorable” people. The spirit ashes are an interesting case though, I should have addressed this in the video
@Vaelithe this is true post shattering but not during our playthrough. By the time we start the game, there's hardly any true competition left because they've been weeded out over time and it's why we're able to find so many Lord runes, we are able to become the cream of the crop
@phantomleaves I am not sure if its the japanese text or the 1.00 text. Returning to the roots wasn't always what it said. I was actually under the impression Rosus is pointing to deathroot but this thought has never been verified. The erdtree burial and spirit ash connection is weird
@Vaelithe I don't take 1.0 descriptions as canon since they have been revised, I think that Fromsoftware was crafting the narrative right up to the deadline and had to make necessary changes that only made it into the day one patch. I'll find a good japanese translation though and edit my comment when I do. Also to note, the Lords Rune doesn't seem to imply to me that the previous holders of the Lord's Runes actually killed any demigods in this world, just that they were powerful and destined to be a Lord, that being a regular lord or Elden Lord is also unclear. And regarding the other Tarnished, I think its clear that there is a multiverse or many worlds interpretation at play here. I was actually going to include a whole section about that in this video, however I cut it and am saving it for another video. Yeah I don't have much regarding the spirit ashes, other than maybe they are mirrors or echoes of the spirits rather than the spirits themselves, since they always fight for us and if they were sentient spirits surely some of them would fight against us.
I share your understanding of Destined Death as being death by natural cause, death over time. I believe this to be the reason why the Greater Will abandoned Placidusax, as the Ancient Dragons with Gravel scales(which alter time) were immortal, and I believe this is also the reason for which the Golden Order and the Ancient Dragons eventually make peace; they share mutual interests in having immortality. As for Marika setting up our proving grounds to overcome the Elden Beast, I find it almost incontestable! Essay incoming lmao.. Marika tells Godfrey and his people(the soon to be Tarnished): "My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die... Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey." And she tells her children: "Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." Marika has already done the exact same thing with Godfrey and the Tarnished before, sent them to go fight, become stronger in the face of death, die, and be returned. She even tells her children that they may become Gods, directly opposing the principle for which Marika founded the Golden Order when she declared herself the "one true God", encouraging them to take up a position relative or greater than her own or be nothing more than a sacrifice to the one who will. She turned the Lands Between into a proving grounds for the one who eventually will carry out her will. Brother Corhyn: "The Golden Order is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god."
I would even say that Gideon's dialogue supports such a conclusion, he says: "The pursuit of knowledge is without end, for knowledge is never a thing complete. Thus, I maintain the mantle of All-Knowing. Perhaps the same could be said of guidance." Gideon believes that the pursuit of guidance is like the pursuit of knowledge, without end. Which would explain why he says: "Ahh, I knew you'd come. To stand before the Elden Ring. To become Elden Lord. What a sad state of affairs. I commend your spirit, but alas, none shall take the throne. Queen Marika has high hopes for us. That we continue to struggle. Unto eternity." Gideon recognizes that Marika's intentions for us, but he personally just doesn't believe it to be possible. I posit that Gideon has been somewhat influenced/confused by the Two Fingers'. Gideon has seen how hands off the Two Fingers' have been and it isn't until we come around and start accomplishing some things, killing a Shardbearer, that the Two Fingers' realize that it can't just ignore us and let us do whatever we want, so they begin to try to utilize us. This is where I think most people get lost, the Two Fingers' coopt the idea of Grace from Marika and pretend as if they're the ones who are giving you it. Knowing that Marika will be guiding the Tarnished toward the Erdtree, they give us their own instructions for what to do when we get there, restore the Golden Order. Finger Reader Enia: "Great Elden Ring, root of the Golden Order. Anchor of all lands, giver of grace, wellspring of all joy. Until it was shattered. The tragic corruption of the Order has taken its toll. Across the realm, life lies in ruin. Fallen to pieces. Foul curses and misery spread, unabating. But the Greater Will has not abandoned the realm, nor the life that inhabits it. So it is that the Tarnished are guided by grace. Called to act. Brave Tarnished, your Great Rune is a handsome shard of the Elden Ring. Seek another of its kind. To become Elden Lord, and restore the Golden Order. After accomplishing far too much, even defeating Morgott and acquiring at least our 3rd Great Rune, the Fingers go silent. We were never meant to come this far, it's only happened once before with Vyke. We were being led this far by Marika and the Fingers were making use of that, but to the Fingers we were expected to be stopped somewhere along the way rather than actually reaching the Erdtree. One thing I am unsure of, is whether or not the Fingers truly represent the Greater Will at this time, or if they merely represent Radagon do to "corruption".. Varre does suggest that Shattering the Elden Ring caused the Greater Will to abandon the Lands Between, which supposedly corrupted the Fingers, so the possibility is at least thrown around. Varre also says that the Fingers are merely the "purported" masters of the grace that guides us, which is true, and that they have no love for our kind. I do believe that the Two Fingers of the Round Table represent Radagon, rather than being truly of the Greater Will, due to the fact that we are maidenless. It would seem that real guidance of the Fingers is typically offered through a Finger Maiden, like in the case of Hyetta(a Three Fingers Maiden but same idea), rather than through Grace. Restoring the Golden Order serves to accomplish what Radagon wishes for, to undo the Shattering, but what I think the Greater Will would likely wish for is for Death to be reintroduced into the Elden Ring; yet that's not what the Fingers ask of you. But Gideon cannot distinguish between these wants, he doesn't understand the nuance between what Marika wants, what Radagon wants, and what the Greater Will would likely want; he believes there's a contradiction at play here. Marika wants us to kill the Elden Beast, Radagon wants us to restore the Golden Order, and the Greater Will who previously had Fingers' "full of vigor" and communicated through writing methods like those found on the Coded Sword and Cipher Pata, may or may not even be present at all. He simply cannot parse these motives and concludes it to be intentionally contradictory, a fruitless endeavor.
Yes all of this! I hope more people analyze this aspect, because it’s so central to the game there must be a lore reason hidden somewhere. We need more eyes. GRANT US EYES
From my understanding, destined death is essentially death in its most concentrated form, in parallel to the way people are granted eternal life under the elden ring without destined death, people killed by destined death are outright annihilated. The goal of Killing Godwyn with destined death was to make it impossible to bring him back, and it's stated that he died in soul alone, as opposed to the body dying and the soul living on, Maliketh's armor also states that champions "Knew what was at stake" when challenging him, implying that something worse than death would happen if they failed
That is absolutely a valid point that I should have addressed dammit. However, even before the rune of death was removed from the ER, before the Erdtree existed, people/things still didn’t truly die on their own, as evidenced by the death rituals I discussed. Their spirits still lived on somehow until burned with Ghostflame, but even then it seems like the spirits just go to the Helphen after that. Perhaps (as you stated) it is the case that being killed with the rune of death *directly* (or its manifestation as the ancient black flame) is what causes the true death. Perhaps the ER is not the foundation of life and that life existed before its introduction to the world, but that would kinda go against the "fracturing of the one great" story told by Hyetta, and the fact that the ancient dragons, possibly the first life forms(speculative!) had an Elden Lord and Elden Ring. In the case of Godwyn and Ranni, Ranni's plot was designed to share the death, with Godwyn dying in spirit so that Ranni could die in body, I don't think the intention was ever to permanently kill him in both body and soul. Either way, regular people and creatures still didn’t seem to die “true deaths” before or after the RoD was removed on their own. Very good comment though, it adds even more wrinkles to this aspect of the game. Thank you for sharing! *Edited for clarification*
I really like this theory. It’s clearly a blessing of Marika that is resurrecting us, otherwise, what. It’s the Greater Will resurrecting us? Is it the Elden Beast? That doesn’t seem likely. I think there’s some innate resurrection power in the Erdtree, but I think it’s was weakened after Ranni stole a shard of destined death. It’s strong enough to resurrect generic enemies but not the demigods. But because we have Marika’s blessing, we can resurrect.
TBH, I think enemies respawning after coveting Destined Death is simply because of game mechanics because that's how the game is in the same way bosses and special enemies don't respawn. Bloodborne and Sekiro follow different universe rules yet enemies also respawn. Also, people would absolutely just murder every basic enemy in the game with Destined Death if the respawn mechanic was lore based as that would just permanently delete all enemies. Outside of that, I do find the conversation around death in particular interesting. Destined Death is pretty much TRUE death from what I gathered from the game and can not only kill the body, but also the soul so that neither are reborn. In general, fire in the Elden Ring universe seem to be particularly dangerous to life as a concept (specifically concept and not just literal because yeah, fire hurts most living things lol) and/or connected to death. Destined Death - Grants true death. Frenzied Flame - Also has the power to just completely kill someone and is stated to be able to kill ALL life including spirits. Blackflame - Has the ability to kill demi-gods and is pretty much Destined Death but neutered in lore. Ghostflame - Was used to burn the dead specifically and is directly tied to the Outer God of Death. Taker's Flame (Basically the explosive fire Rykard uses) - Straight up steals life (but I guess you could debate whether that's how the flame works and if it even is a unique flame) Sleep/Slumber Flame - It appears exclusively on the Torch of St. Trina and doesn't seem to deal with death. That said, sleep in it's purest form can basically kill you and the torch would be burning that I suppose. Death Blight Flame - A Flame that causes Death Blight. Omen Flame - A Flame that can summon specifically vengeful spirits of those who were cursed. Bloodflame - Flame that comes from the Formless Mother. Unclear how this connects to death, but since Bloodflame comes from an Outer God directly, it's safe to assume it probably has the ability to kill at least demi-gods. You can also argue that the flame directly deals with taking life (Formless Mother's Blood) and converting into fire. Mohgwyn's Spear also directly steals life from us and gives it to Mohg when he does the ritual. Giant's Flame/Flame of Ruin - A direct threat to the Golden Order and could burn the Erdtree, the thing responsible for giving "abundance" to the Lands Between before everything went sour. Considering the Erdtree is this massive thing that can grant life and literally absorb the dead through it's roots while allowing souls a proper burial, I'd say being able to burn said thing is enough to consider it dangerous to the concept of life. This power is also inherited from an Outer God on top of that. Messmerflame - Also used to burn people and cleanse people. This flame also has the power to burn the Scadutree and would likely be able to burn the Erdtree.
Golden Flame - Elden Beast straight up uses gold colored flames. Placidusax when channeling "Placidusax's Ruin" also start off with golden flames before it is concentrated into a beam. This beam is obviously associated with beings of high power with close ties to the Greater Will. Considering it's being spewed by the first Elden Lord and the Greater Will's representative, I imagine it likely has the power to kill people for real (Ulcerated Tree Spirits also spew gold fire and they are directly physically related to the Erdtree). Not to mention, pure Holy damage specifically kills those who live in death in one go. Messmerflame - New from the DLC!! Deep red flame with black serpentine coils within it. Does high fire damage, and has the unique property (in lore anyways) of seemingly never extinguishing/having a life of its own. You can even find embers of it still crawling around on the ground. Dragonfire (+ Glintstone Fire and Bayle's "Flame Lightning") - It is admittedly debatable whether or not you could consider Dragonfire as anything more than just regular fire and Glintstone Fire is simply what happens when Dragons consume WAY too many sorcerers. That said, considering Placi can channel and concentrate his flame into a Golden explosive beam, it makes me believe it might actually involve dragons (at the very least Ancient Dragons and Elder Drakes) using magic for or with their fire. I know you could argue that the fact that since Dragonfire can be affected by outside sources to create altered fire (or even become breath attacks), it must mean it's biological, but we can also see that Lightning can ALSO be affected (Death Blight Lightning, Ice Lightning, and Bayle's Flame Lightning) despite them literally summoning it as magic attacks. As for the connection to death, there's not much, but it is notable that people specifically went to Agheel in hopes of being burn to death to end their suffering and Bayle had the power to grievously wound Placi who was Elden Lord, so I imagine Dragonfire must me potent. Rot Flame - Like with the Glintstone Fire, this is just a case of an outside element (Rot) effecting the Flame of another (Ulcerated Tree Spirit). I might be missing a flame or two, but yeah, so many of the flames relate to Life or Death as a concept.
I think for the generic enemies the answer is easy. They do die, just that when you rest, the population refills. Remember the game is representative. There are more citizens than the few handful per area, so when we site of grace, their replacements come in.
@@arglebargle42 yeah that seems to be a common understanding so maybe that’s all there is to it. It’s just that the respawned enemies seem to be stuck in a loop doing the same things that make me question that take.
@@phantomleaves You know, I kind of see it now you mention the loop. And also i really liked the part where you said (paraphrased) 'Marika gives us a world of easily accessible runes so we can finish her plan'.
It's all a game mechanic to some degree. Bcuz once destined death is unbound, everyone should just die lol. EVERYONE is like hundreds of years old already, aside for maybe some tarnished
Erdtree burial is how you are reborn through the grace of the erdtree. Destined death would mean that burial wouldn’t work. Keep in mind like its name the lands between exist in between time and space and thus what is preceived by one may not match another. Meaning enemies respawn to us immediately even though they have to go through burial. It’s the same with our characters respawning instantly. To us it’s instant but in game I think it would be taking place over periods of time
I'll try to keep it brief but it's hard. Here's my take. So like you said in the video we know there's a spirit world where 'people' do stuff like follow the lampwood etc. We also know that the thing marika removed is 'DESTINED Death' when creating the golden order. Destiny is defined as one's unchangeable fate, determinism basically. To me what this means is that how it normally works (i.e. before the golden order, or 'naturally') is what a lot of people in real life believe. You live your life and then you die, and when you do your 'immortal essence' or soul passes on to the 'spirit realm'. It might even be called your 'destiny' to do so when you die in elden ring. What marika did essentially was remove this aspect of death by sealing the rune of Death. So now how it works instead is that when you die (which as stated in the video can only now occur when actively killed) your 'immortal essence' is *supposed* to be recycled back into the new system of life and death, the erdtree, to power it's blessing etc. This is what Rodarika means when she says she can 'see how immortal essence remains as SPIRIT under the golden order'. When someone dies somewhere where they are unable to be reabsorbed into the erdtree the immortal essence (that is destined for the spirit world but barred by the golden order) lingers and becomes a spirit. This accounts for all the spirits and spirit related phenomenon in game like spirit graves. All that is unrelated to why enemies respawn in the game. My crackpot theory on that part is that it might have something to do with the physical version of the roundtable hold as well as the memory of grace item. Everything in the physical location of the roundtable hold all suggest it was a very long time ago that it was used at all. That combined with the memory of grace to me kind of hints that the roundtable hold we use, that is all shiny until it's on fire in sync with the erdtree after burning, is itself some kind of memory, generated by grace itself or perhaps marika via grace. By extension this could imply that the sites of grace we use around the map are also related to memory in some way, and resting there somehow 'resets' the memory. After all, the color of grace, gold, is known to hold things in stasis (see beast blood, gold tinged excrement, healing incantations sustain your order, anything with gold in it, etc.). I'll stop there cause I doubt anyone will read it anyway and I''m probably wrong... but i've been itching to get that out of my system anyway so there it is lol.
lol that’s just the kind of crazy theory I’m into! It would imply that even those who live in death are captured in this “memory of gold” but idk I like it haha!
I think the lack of randomization is where gameplay takes precedent over lore. Considering the precision that From puts into enemy placement. However, I do feel like it makes sense that other people/creatures would eventualky show up in the same areas as the nameless mobs after they die. And it would explain why named enemies like NPCs/invaders/bosses don't come back.
It’s just that they perform the exact same actions(i.e. the redmanes fighting the dogs, the giants fighting the crows) and appear in the exact same places, it’s seems more like time is being rewound. But of course we know that time isn’t being rewound since the day progresses.
I think that there is more to this than many of us have realized, and I don't know if you're exactly on the right track, but I do feel like it's a worthwhile discussion to have. There's something interesting about the death animation, our tarnished sort of fades away with these silvery bubbles, and many enemies share this animation, namely larger enemies (likely to remove the large body from the playing space) but some enemies when we kill them they leave a physical body behind while others don't. And it's not as clear cut as we may think because we know that bosses like Godrick and Margit they leave behind a physical body, and it's almost withered and drained of all of it's vitality or strength, almost like we have absorbed what was keeping them alive. Really interesting stuff, hope you enjoy your playthrough of the expansion!
Yeah I’m 100% ok with my conclusion being wrong, I hope there is something, ANYTHING in the DLC that might shed light on this. If someone comes up with a better theory I am all ears. To your point about some enemies vanishing like we do upon death, another wrinkle is that some enemies vanish into a cloud of golden particles…like what is that about?
But anyways, thanks for watching!
The last 5 minutes blew my mind but it makes perfect sense...i think you're right on the money with this one.
Thank you for watching! I’m glad you like my theory 😃
Nah, Those with grace are fated to live until they earn an Erdtree burial, which granted them an exit from the loop. The spirit ashes don't really make sense in some cases
Powerful enemies have to respawn otherwise you wouldn't see other tarnished reaching the same points of progression as you. Remember each tarnished needs two great runes to be given right to become Elden Lord. We aren't the only ones getting boss kills that's just what you see.
There are a couple of things in game that are contrary to this, namely what happens when you interact with a Rosus statue it says “Guide and gatekeeper for those returning to the roots” and the Rosus axe says “the dead easily lose their way, and have always been in sore need of a guiding hand” so those seem to imply that Rosus guides spirits of the dead to the roots and that Erdtree burial was only done for the most “honorable” people. The spirit ashes are an interesting case though, I should have addressed this in the video
@Vaelithe this is true post shattering but not during our playthrough. By the time we start the game, there's hardly any true competition left because they've been weeded out over time and it's why we're able to find so many Lord runes, we are able to become the cream of the crop
@phantomleaves I am not sure if its the japanese text or the 1.00 text. Returning to the roots wasn't always what it said. I was actually under the impression Rosus is pointing to deathroot but this thought has never been verified. The erdtree burial and spirit ash connection is weird
@Vaelithe I don't take 1.0 descriptions as canon since they have been revised, I think that Fromsoftware was crafting the narrative right up to the deadline and had to make necessary changes that only made it into the day one patch. I'll find a good japanese translation though and edit my comment when I do.
Also to note, the Lords Rune doesn't seem to imply to me that the previous holders of the Lord's Runes actually killed any demigods in this world, just that they were powerful and destined to be a Lord, that being a regular lord or Elden Lord is also unclear.
And regarding the other Tarnished, I think its clear that there is a multiverse or many worlds interpretation at play here. I was actually going to include a whole section about that in this video, however I cut it and am saving it for another video.
Yeah I don't have much regarding the spirit ashes, other than maybe they are mirrors or echoes of the spirits rather than the spirits themselves, since they always fight for us and if they were sentient spirits surely some of them would fight against us.
I share your understanding of Destined Death as being death by natural cause, death over time. I believe this to be the reason why the Greater Will abandoned Placidusax, as the Ancient Dragons with Gravel scales(which alter time) were immortal, and I believe this is also the reason for which the Golden Order and the Ancient Dragons eventually make peace; they share mutual interests in having immortality.
As for Marika setting up our proving grounds to overcome the Elden Beast, I find it almost incontestable! Essay incoming lmao..
Marika tells Godfrey and his people(the soon to be Tarnished):
"My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace.
With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between.
Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die...
Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed.
Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring.
Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord.
Lord Godfrey."
And she tells her children:
"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved.
Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord.
Be it a God.
But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken.
Amounting only to sacrifices..."
Marika has already done the exact same thing with Godfrey and the Tarnished before, sent them to go fight, become stronger in the face of death, die, and be returned. She even tells her children that they may become Gods, directly opposing the principle for which Marika founded the Golden Order when she declared herself the "one true God", encouraging them to take up a position relative or greater than her own or be nothing more than a sacrifice to the one who will. She turned the Lands Between into a proving grounds for the one who eventually will carry out her will.
Brother Corhyn:
"The Golden Order is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god."
I would even say that Gideon's dialogue supports such a conclusion, he says:
"The pursuit of knowledge is without end, for knowledge is never a thing complete.
Thus, I maintain the mantle of All-Knowing.
Perhaps the same could be said of guidance."
Gideon believes that the pursuit of guidance is like the pursuit of knowledge, without end. Which would explain why he says:
"Ahh, I knew you'd come.
To stand before the Elden Ring. To become Elden Lord.
What a sad state of affairs.
I commend your spirit, but alas, none shall take the throne.
Queen Marika has high hopes for us.
That we continue to struggle. Unto eternity."
Gideon recognizes that Marika's intentions for us, but he personally just doesn't believe it to be possible. I posit that Gideon has been somewhat influenced/confused by the Two Fingers'. Gideon has seen how hands off the Two Fingers' have been and it isn't until we come around and start accomplishing some things, killing a Shardbearer, that the Two Fingers' realize that it can't just ignore us and let us do whatever we want, so they begin to try to utilize us. This is where I think most people get lost, the Two Fingers' coopt the idea of Grace from Marika and pretend as if they're the ones who are giving you it. Knowing that Marika will be guiding the Tarnished toward the Erdtree, they give us their own instructions for what to do when we get there, restore the Golden Order.
Finger Reader Enia:
"Great Elden Ring, root of the Golden Order.
Anchor of all lands, giver of grace, wellspring of all joy.
Until it was shattered.
The tragic corruption of the Order has taken its toll.
Across the realm, life lies in ruin. Fallen to pieces.
Foul curses and misery spread, unabating.
But the Greater Will has not abandoned the realm, nor the life that inhabits it.
So it is that the Tarnished are guided by grace. Called to act.
Brave Tarnished, your Great Rune is a handsome shard of the Elden Ring.
Seek another of its kind.
To become Elden Lord, and restore the Golden Order.
After accomplishing far too much, even defeating Morgott and acquiring at least our 3rd Great Rune, the Fingers go silent. We were never meant to come this far, it's only happened once before with Vyke. We were being led this far by Marika and the Fingers were making use of that, but to the Fingers we were expected to be stopped somewhere along the way rather than actually reaching the Erdtree.
One thing I am unsure of, is whether or not the Fingers truly represent the Greater Will at this time, or if they merely represent Radagon do to "corruption".. Varre does suggest that Shattering the Elden Ring caused the Greater Will to abandon the Lands Between, which supposedly corrupted the Fingers, so the possibility is at least thrown around. Varre also says that the Fingers are merely the "purported" masters of the grace that guides us, which is true, and that they have no love for our kind. I do believe that the Two Fingers of the Round Table represent Radagon, rather than being truly of the Greater Will, due to the fact that we are maidenless. It would seem that real guidance of the Fingers is typically offered through a Finger Maiden, like in the case of Hyetta(a Three Fingers Maiden but same idea), rather than through Grace. Restoring the Golden Order serves to accomplish what Radagon wishes for, to undo the Shattering, but what I think the Greater Will would likely wish for is for Death to be reintroduced into the Elden Ring; yet that's not what the Fingers ask of you.
But Gideon cannot distinguish between these wants, he doesn't understand the nuance between what Marika wants, what Radagon wants, and what the Greater Will would likely want; he believes there's a contradiction at play here. Marika wants us to kill the Elden Beast, Radagon wants us to restore the Golden Order, and the Greater Will who previously had Fingers' "full of vigor" and communicated through writing methods like those found on the Coded Sword and Cipher Pata, may or may not even be present at all. He simply cannot parse these motives and concludes it to be intentionally contradictory, a fruitless endeavor.
Yes all of this! I hope more people analyze this aspect, because it’s so central to the game there must be a lore reason hidden somewhere. We need more eyes. GRANT US EYES
From my understanding, destined death is essentially death in its most concentrated form, in parallel to the way people are granted eternal life under the elden ring without destined death, people killed by destined death are outright annihilated. The goal of Killing Godwyn with destined death was to make it impossible to bring him back, and it's stated that he died in soul alone, as opposed to the body dying and the soul living on, Maliketh's armor also states that champions "Knew what was at stake" when challenging him, implying that something worse than death would happen if they failed
That is absolutely a valid point that I should have addressed dammit. However, even before the rune of death was removed from the ER, before the Erdtree existed, people/things still didn’t truly die on their own, as evidenced by the death rituals I discussed. Their spirits still lived on somehow until burned with Ghostflame, but even then it seems like the spirits just go to the Helphen after that.
Perhaps (as you stated) it is the case that being killed with the rune of death *directly* (or its manifestation as the ancient black flame) is what causes the true death. Perhaps the ER is not the foundation of life and that life existed before its introduction to the world, but that would kinda go against the "fracturing of the one great" story told by Hyetta, and the fact that the ancient dragons, possibly the first life forms(speculative!) had an Elden Lord and Elden Ring. In the case of Godwyn and Ranni, Ranni's plot was designed to share the death, with Godwyn dying in spirit so that Ranni could die in body, I don't think the intention was ever to permanently kill him in both body and soul. Either way, regular people and creatures still didn’t seem to die “true deaths” before or after the RoD was removed on their own. Very good comment though, it adds even more wrinkles to this aspect of the game. Thank you for sharing!
*Edited for clarification*
I really like this theory. It’s clearly a blessing of Marika that is resurrecting us, otherwise, what. It’s the Greater Will resurrecting us? Is it the Elden Beast? That doesn’t seem likely.
I think there’s some innate resurrection power in the Erdtree, but I think it’s was weakened after Ranni stole a shard of destined death. It’s strong enough to resurrect generic enemies but not the demigods. But because we have Marika’s blessing, we can resurrect.
The Malaketh fight should make you restart the whole game if he kills you
Don’t give Miyazaki any ideas
im watching this during a meeting because the drawing is nice, ready for this dlc >:)
Hey thanks for watching, glad you liked the art!
TBH, I think enemies respawning after coveting Destined Death is simply because of game mechanics because that's how the game is in the same way bosses and special enemies don't respawn. Bloodborne and Sekiro follow different universe rules yet enemies also respawn. Also, people would absolutely just murder every basic enemy in the game with Destined Death if the respawn mechanic was lore based as that would just permanently delete all enemies.
Outside of that, I do find the conversation around death in particular interesting. Destined Death is pretty much TRUE death from what I gathered from the game and can not only kill the body, but also the soul so that neither are reborn. In general, fire in the Elden Ring universe seem to be particularly dangerous to life as a concept (specifically concept and not just literal because yeah, fire hurts most living things lol) and/or connected to death.
Destined Death - Grants true death.
Frenzied Flame - Also has the power to just completely kill someone and is stated to be able to kill ALL life including spirits.
Blackflame - Has the ability to kill demi-gods and is pretty much Destined Death but neutered in lore.
Ghostflame - Was used to burn the dead specifically and is directly tied to the Outer God of Death.
Taker's Flame (Basically the explosive fire Rykard uses) - Straight up steals life (but I guess you could debate whether that's how the flame works and if it even is a unique flame)
Sleep/Slumber Flame - It appears exclusively on the Torch of St. Trina and doesn't seem to deal with death. That said, sleep in it's purest form can basically kill you and the torch would be burning that I suppose.
Death Blight Flame - A Flame that causes Death Blight.
Omen Flame - A Flame that can summon specifically vengeful spirits of those who were cursed.
Bloodflame - Flame that comes from the Formless Mother. Unclear how this connects to death, but since Bloodflame comes from an Outer God directly, it's safe to assume it probably has the ability to kill at least demi-gods. You can also argue that the flame directly deals with taking life (Formless Mother's Blood) and converting into fire. Mohgwyn's Spear also directly steals life from us and gives it to Mohg when he does the ritual.
Giant's Flame/Flame of Ruin - A direct threat to the Golden Order and could burn the Erdtree, the thing responsible for giving "abundance" to the Lands Between before everything went sour. Considering the Erdtree is this massive thing that can grant life and literally absorb the dead through it's roots while allowing souls a proper burial, I'd say being able to burn said thing is enough to consider it dangerous to the concept of life. This power is also inherited from an Outer God on top of that.
Messmerflame - Also used to burn people and cleanse people. This flame also has the power to burn the Scadutree and would likely be able to burn the Erdtree.
Golden Flame - Elden Beast straight up uses gold colored flames. Placidusax when channeling "Placidusax's Ruin" also start off with golden flames before it is concentrated into a beam. This beam is obviously associated with beings of high power with close ties to the Greater Will. Considering it's being spewed by the first Elden Lord and the Greater Will's representative, I imagine it likely has the power to kill people for real (Ulcerated Tree Spirits also spew gold fire and they are directly physically related to the Erdtree). Not to mention, pure Holy damage specifically kills those who live in death in one go.
Messmerflame - New from the DLC!! Deep red flame with black serpentine coils within it. Does high fire damage, and has the unique property (in lore anyways) of seemingly never extinguishing/having a life of its own. You can even find embers of it still crawling around on the ground.
Dragonfire (+ Glintstone Fire and Bayle's "Flame Lightning") - It is admittedly debatable whether or not you could consider Dragonfire as anything more than just regular fire and Glintstone Fire is simply what happens when Dragons consume WAY too many sorcerers. That said, considering Placi can channel and concentrate his flame into a Golden explosive beam, it makes me believe it might actually involve dragons (at the very least Ancient Dragons and Elder Drakes) using magic for or with their fire. I know you could argue that the fact that since Dragonfire can be affected by outside sources to create altered fire (or even become breath attacks), it must mean it's biological, but we can also see that Lightning can ALSO be affected (Death Blight Lightning, Ice Lightning, and Bayle's Flame Lightning) despite them literally summoning it as magic attacks. As for the connection to death, there's not much, but it is notable that people specifically went to Agheel in hopes of being burn to death to end their suffering and Bayle had the power to grievously wound Placi who was Elden Lord, so I imagine Dragonfire must me potent.
Rot Flame - Like with the Glintstone Fire, this is just a case of an outside element (Rot) effecting the Flame of another (Ulcerated Tree Spirit).
I might be missing a flame or two, but yeah, so many of the flames relate to Life or Death as a concept.
I think for the generic enemies the answer is easy. They do die, just that when you rest, the population refills. Remember the game is representative. There are more citizens than the few handful per area, so when we site of grace, their replacements come in.
@@arglebargle42 yeah that seems to be a common understanding so maybe that’s all there is to it. It’s just that the respawned enemies seem to be stuck in a loop doing the same things that make me question that take.
@@phantomleaves You know, I kind of see it now you mention the loop. And also i really liked the part where you said (paraphrased) 'Marika gives us a world of easily accessible runes so we can finish her plan'.
It's all a game mechanic to some degree. Bcuz once destined death is unbound, everyone should just die lol. EVERYONE is like hundreds of years old already, aside for maybe some tarnished
Erdtree burial is how you are reborn through the grace of the erdtree. Destined death would mean that burial wouldn’t work. Keep in mind like its name the lands between exist in between time and space and thus what is preceived by one may not match another. Meaning enemies respawn to us immediately even though they have to go through burial. It’s the same with our characters respawning instantly. To us it’s instant but in game I think it would be taking place over periods of time
I'll try to keep it brief but it's hard. Here's my take.
So like you said in the video we know there's a spirit world where 'people' do stuff like follow the lampwood etc. We also know that the thing marika removed is 'DESTINED Death' when creating the golden order. Destiny is defined as one's unchangeable fate, determinism basically. To me what this means is that how it normally works (i.e. before the golden order, or 'naturally') is what a lot of people in real life believe. You live your life and then you die, and when you do your 'immortal essence' or soul passes on to the 'spirit realm'. It might even be called your 'destiny' to do so when you die in elden ring.
What marika did essentially was remove this aspect of death by sealing the rune of Death. So now how it works instead is that when you die (which as stated in the video can only now occur when actively killed) your 'immortal essence' is *supposed* to be recycled back into the new system of life and death, the erdtree, to power it's blessing etc. This is what Rodarika means when she says she can 'see how immortal essence remains as SPIRIT under the golden order'. When someone dies somewhere where they are unable to be reabsorbed into the erdtree the immortal essence (that is destined for the spirit world but barred by the golden order) lingers and becomes a spirit. This accounts for all the spirits and spirit related phenomenon in game like spirit graves.
All that is unrelated to why enemies respawn in the game. My crackpot theory on that part is that it might have something to do with the physical version of the roundtable hold as well as the memory of grace item. Everything in the physical location of the roundtable hold all suggest it was a very long time ago that it was used at all. That combined with the memory of grace to me kind of hints that the roundtable hold we use, that is all shiny until it's on fire in sync with the erdtree after burning, is itself some kind of memory, generated by grace itself or perhaps marika via grace. By extension this could imply that the sites of grace we use around the map are also related to memory in some way, and resting there somehow 'resets' the memory. After all, the color of grace, gold, is known to hold things in stasis (see beast blood, gold tinged excrement, healing incantations sustain your order, anything with gold in it, etc.).
I'll stop there cause I doubt anyone will read it anyway and I''m probably wrong... but i've been itching to get that out of my system anyway so there it is lol.
lol that’s just the kind of crazy theory I’m into! It would imply that even those who live in death are captured in this “memory of gold” but idk I like it haha!
Great work again!! Loving your lore and theory vids. Glad I found you, subscribing!
Thank you very much!!
Solid theory !
Personally I think we're stuck in a time loop.
@@azureascendant994 yeah that crossed my mind too
Bro is stoned af
lol
@@phantomleaves nice vid by the way
@@thesis_gaia7960 haha thanks!
and for the record, I'm Californian so I just sound that way 🏄♂
Great video! I had to watch at 1.25x speed for my brain to not fall out of my head, though
Haha thanks for the feedback. I’m still trying to figure out a good speed for my dialogue while enunciating well enough
If nobody ages, does that mean that new births are fully-grown adults?
Asking the real questions here 👆 but…maybe? I think Tarnished Archeologist seems to think so based on their video(s?) about the Erdtree circle of life
Where does phantom go?
Maybe the mobs respawning are just new people populating the area by the time you respawn.
If the enemies were randomized at all this is totally what I would think. Thanks for watching!
I think the lack of randomization is where gameplay takes precedent over lore. Considering the precision that From puts into enemy placement. However, I do feel like it makes sense that other people/creatures would eventualky show up in the same areas as the nameless mobs after they die. And it would explain why named enemies like NPCs/invaders/bosses don't come back.
It’s just that they perform the exact same actions(i.e. the redmanes fighting the dogs, the giants fighting the crows) and appear in the exact same places, it’s seems more like time is being rewound. But of course we know that time isn’t being rewound since the day progresses.