As a beginner I’ve noticed that boats like this CAN be marketed to both. Beginners are doing easier rivers and some want a boat that will challenge and some want a boat that will keep them up right and make it easier for them. So you can’t REALLY market a boat as a beginner boat. I wanted a tiny bit more challenge at first but now I want to move up in how challenging a river I want to go on so I want to now step up to a boat that will do a good job keeping me upright. So I can imagine an expert also wants this but they will be running harder rivers. But the refinements made it more responsive technically so an advanced paddler will be able to utilize those features and really enjoy higher class rivers and a beginner will feel safe while also getting a feel for how a ww kayak responds to technical input as well. That’s why I think this will be perfect for me and probably for a lot of smaller people.
I am not an expert, but in trying to choose a new boat with the right specifications is really hard as every review seems to say this boat is awesome in every regard, boofs brilliantly, carves like a champion and has also created a new niche for itself at the same time. Perhaps it has, as boat design is evolving. I could be wrong. Also I won’t be paddling over grade III, so videos with experts going down 10-30 metre drops are of no real interest to me.. Honest statements about what a boat is designed for without so much hype would be helpful.
My initial thoughts after paddling the Flow on the Pigeon & the Nantahala this weekend.. It has a good amount of primary stability, a lot more than any of my other boats as well as some nice secondary stability. That primary stability will serve beginners well. It takes good rolling technique to bring it back up. I admit, I had to work my roll out a little to begin to feel fluid rolling it. I feel that I can roll my medium Gnarvana & Medium Antix 2.0 a little easier. This boat wants to keep u safe & upright. It river runs really well, turns & boofs with ease, carves into eddies, able to get up to speed quickly, change direction mid rapid with ease, surfs & carves on the waves like a dream. I enjoyed the shorter length & hit some tight eddies that I sometimes slide out of. I felt like I could put the boat exactly where I wanted. I also really enjoyed the size of the medium. It fits me perfectly without feeling too big.
I really wish kayak companies would just market how the features of their boats can be used on the water and why. At the end of the day, that's all we are looking for.
Well allow me to ramble for a bit. I don’t know that I’d say the flow is necessarily a “niche” boat. I’m 5’11” 180lbs and it appeals to me a lot more than the Gnarvana based solely off the specs. To me the Gnarvana was way too much volume for what most paddlers need. Unless it was solely meant for people running class V or things at the top of their ability. But it wasn’t marketed that way. I think kayaks have been getting bigger and bigger in recent years, which has allowed the experts to go places they’ve never gone and run insane rapids in a safer way than ever before. But beginner boaters have gotten worse as they get in these massive creek boats that can barely flip over and blast over everything while they develop bad habits but still get down the river just fine. I like the sound of a shorter kayak with an adequate, not excessive amount of volume. Having said all that I can’t stand the knee position in Jackson boats and probably won’t ever own a gnar or a flow. But I’d definitely take the flow over the gnar. They should have definitely released a half slice with more bow rocker and less stern volume than the Antix 2 though. That would have been the move.
Smaller paddlers have their Gnarvana now. Period. When the get more volume in bow and stern ala Villain, I am in. ( I own three Large Villains and a Super Hero for steep micro micro creeking ).
I think your honest feedback is what is needed. I think it’s a fair assessment of your personal interpretation of the boat. I’ve always said team members promoting boats is the worst marketing technique you can do. Of course they are gonna say it’s the best and for everyone.
Great point you made about NOT marketing these boats to EVERYBODY. Like how not everyone will do well with a half slice. I think this boat is a good river runner, not for true beginners, but for those who have done it few seasons and want to get out of the high volume boats without going down to a half slice. And I doubt that it works in class 5 water as well as the puffed up creekers.
I’ve been in a Zen 3 and this is exactly how I feel. I’m looking to progress with a smaller volume boat as I’ve convinced myself the size of the Zen is holding me back but a half slice may be a step too far.
I totally agree with your assessment. One size definitely doesn’t fit all but that’s the common marketing theme at the moment it seems. As someone pretty new to the sport I’d love to see more accurate assessments of what skill level a boat is best for. Keep the content coming!
@@BeaterBoaterExactly. The real fallacy here is that just because a beginner might feel comfortable or more confident in a shorter length/higher volume boat, such a person is competent enough to take on the turns and drops of a fast moving, obstructed "creek." Hell, it took me several years to advance from beginner to Class IV. I never advanced to truly technical creeks because the only two boats I ever had were 10-footers, and those weren't made for tight creeks.
You should paddle one and review that
As a beginner I’ve noticed that boats like this CAN be marketed to both. Beginners are doing easier rivers and some want a boat that will challenge and some want a boat that will keep them up right and make it easier for them. So you can’t REALLY market a boat as a beginner boat. I wanted a tiny bit more challenge at first but now I want to move up in how challenging a river I want to go on so I want to now step up to a boat that will do a good job keeping me upright. So I can imagine an expert also wants this but they will be running harder rivers. But the refinements made it more responsive technically so an advanced paddler will be able to utilize those features and really enjoy higher class rivers and a beginner will feel safe while also getting a feel for how a ww kayak responds to technical input as well. That’s why I think this will be perfect for me and probably for a lot of smaller people.
I am not an expert, but in trying to choose a new boat with the right specifications is really hard as every review seems to say this boat is awesome in every regard, boofs brilliantly, carves like a champion and has also created a new niche for itself at the same time. Perhaps it has, as boat design is evolving. I could be wrong.
Also I won’t be paddling over grade III, so videos with experts going down 10-30 metre drops are of no real interest to me..
Honest statements about what a boat is designed for without so much hype would be helpful.
completely agree....
My initial thoughts after paddling the Flow on the Pigeon & the Nantahala this weekend.. It has a good amount of primary stability, a lot more than any of my other boats as well as some nice secondary stability. That primary stability will serve beginners well. It takes good rolling technique to bring it back up. I admit, I had to work my roll out a little to begin to feel fluid rolling it. I feel that I can roll my medium Gnarvana & Medium Antix 2.0 a little easier. This boat wants to keep u safe & upright. It river runs really well, turns & boofs with ease, carves into eddies, able to get up to speed quickly, change direction mid rapid with ease, surfs & carves on the waves like a dream. I enjoyed the shorter length & hit some tight eddies that I sometimes slide out of. I felt like I could put the boat exactly where I wanted. I also really enjoyed the size of the medium. It fits me perfectly without feeling too big.
I really wish kayak companies would just market how the features of their boats can be used on the water and why. At the end of the day, that's all we are looking for.
I watched the promo and send videos but came away with a different conclusion. I dont think this is a gnar replacement but instead a z3 replacement.
Well allow me to ramble for a bit. I don’t know that I’d say the flow is necessarily a “niche” boat. I’m 5’11” 180lbs and it appeals to me a lot more than the Gnarvana based solely off the specs. To me the Gnarvana was way too much volume for what most paddlers need. Unless it was solely meant for people running class V or things at the top of their ability. But it wasn’t marketed that way. I think kayaks have been getting bigger and bigger in recent years, which has allowed the experts to go places they’ve never gone and run insane rapids in a safer way than ever before. But beginner boaters have gotten worse as they get in these massive creek boats that can barely flip over and blast over everything while they develop bad habits but still get down the river just fine. I like the sound of a shorter kayak with an adequate, not excessive amount of volume. Having said all that I can’t stand the knee position in Jackson boats and probably won’t ever own a gnar or a flow. But I’d definitely take the flow over the gnar. They should have definitely released a half slice with more bow rocker and less stern volume than the Antix 2 though. That would have been the move.
Great input... We're definitely in a bloated boat phase of the sport. Maybe this is the pendulum swinging back. Food for thought.
but the gnarvana was already a slightly smaller nirvana
@@williamnewton5556 not smaller by volume... very slightly shorter and more rocker, but not smaller
Smaller paddlers have their Gnarvana now. Period. When the get more volume in bow and stern ala Villain, I am in. ( I own three Large Villains and a Super Hero for steep micro micro creeking ).
I think your honest feedback is what is needed. I think it’s a fair assessment of your personal interpretation of the boat. I’ve always said team members promoting boats is the worst marketing technique you can do. Of course they are gonna say it’s the best and for everyone.
Great point you made about NOT marketing these boats to EVERYBODY. Like how not everyone will do well with a half slice. I think this boat is a good river runner, not for true beginners, but for those who have done it few seasons and want to get out of the high volume boats without going down to a half slice. And I doubt that it works in class 5 water as well as the puffed up creekers.
I’ve been in a Zen 3 and this is exactly how I feel. I’m looking to progress with a smaller volume boat as I’ve convinced myself the size of the Zen is holding me back but a half slice may be a step too far.
I totally agree with your assessment. One size definitely doesn’t fit all but that’s the common marketing theme at the moment it seems. As someone pretty new to the sport I’d love to see more accurate assessments of what skill level a boat is best for. Keep the content coming!
I think boat manufacturers are all afraid to really speak plainly about who a particular boat is aimed at. A broad appeal means more sales.
@@BeaterBoaterExactly. The real fallacy here is that just because a beginner might feel comfortable or more confident in a shorter length/higher volume boat, such a person is competent enough to take on the turns and drops of a fast moving, obstructed "creek." Hell, it took me several years to advance from beginner to Class IV. I never advanced to truly technical creeks because the only two boats I ever had were 10-footers, and those weren't made for tight creeks.
Nice report--tell it like you see it