I don’t think Driscoll learned anything. He had his church fall apart. And now he just started a new church with no elders to hold him accountable. I don’t think he realizes that he’s the problem.
Everything that was cool yesterday becomes a gimmick tomorrow but God’s truth and the plain unveiling of scripture through prayer and sound teaching is timeless.
Interesting scene with Driscoll McDonald and Nobel . All canned by their own congregations. Pride cometh before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
To see these 3 now makes it so difficult to see my pastor of 20 plus years sitting in the back ground, Greg Laurie. my heart falls. this is one of the reasons I left harvest. I have so many friends there that I left behind. Then after I left I found more and more associations that turned my stomach. I loved harvest but things change now I feel as I'm alone I've yet to find another church that I can trust.
Im sorry to hear this my friend and I can relate. I was attending Jesus Culture for many years until I left because I had many questions that were not being answered. Then I did a 180 and started listening to the more orthodox reformed guys like John McArthur. At Least until he came out and said that you can still be saved after taking the mark of the beast. What do we do? Listen to clowns like those in this video. Who can I go to. Im sure your feeling the same way. These "Men of God" and I use that phrase loosely, continue to make millions of dollars, drive around in Bentleys and live in mansions while the people who they are supposed to serve are spiritually starving.
@@CultofGrace Yes, I feel the same thing. These mega churches seem to think that they can invite God's presence and save people by there new generation gimmicks and technologies. Look at the various revivals of the past such as Azusa Street Revival. People were drawn to the place due to the presence of the Holy Spirit. Having said that I do not feel qualified to judge these Pastors because I have not achieved 1% of what they have done for the Kingdom of God
@@micjohny Don't tell yourself that brother. These false teachers might "impact" millions around the world but their theologies are mostly based on a lie. Listen to me my friend, God would rather have one true soldier of Christ who marches even through the blackest of nights and hottest of days being motivated by love than 1 million phonies who will abandoned the very love for God they confess when the going gets tough. I only know because I was once part of that 1 million. The gate is narrow and few will find it brother. Don't sell yourself short, share the word with just one person and you would have done more than Joel Osteen ever has.
I would love to get the perspective of a couple small church pastors in this forum. These guys are/were megachurch guys. It seems to me the church in America, or the world for that matter, are churches made up of fifty to a hundred people. That's normal. I'm not against the megachurch. You can make a case for it in scripture. What I'm for is giving small church pastors more of a voice to equip this generation of pastors. Those small church guys are unknown, laboring faithfully in obedience to the Gospel call that Jesus put on their life. If anyone deserves a voice it's those men.
The lack of healthy exegesis is staggering. Paul was not building a bridge to appeal, but to shatter the Athenian structure. Platt is the only one who is saved in this entire conversation. He is also one of the few who remain steadfast to this day.
Three guys who have been revealed to have terrible personal character, serial plagiarism in Driscoll's case, alcoholism in Noble's, massive self-enrichment in MacDonald's, misuse of church funds in the case of at least 2, churches which imploded after they left in at least 2 cases (remains to be seen what happens to Harvest -- they're saddled with over $40 Million in debt and their "charismatic" leader is gone, so good luck paying that off), and all 3 were fired or resigned in disgrace. And this theological discussion you're watching was originally only available on a pay-to-view basis, like a heavyweight fight. First, you aren't anywhere near as entertaining. And guys, your personal opinions on how to do church should not require Christians to pay good money. You're pastors, aren't you, why isn't this provided free as part of your ministry to the Body? And no, you don't need all that money to pay the cost of production of this thing. All 3 could meet up thru free online tech and distributed the resulting free via RUclips, and promoted for no add'l cost on your 3 churches' existing web sites/social media, etc.
It means you're probably under 35 and have no idea what real manhood looks like, because our culture has abandoned it during my lifetime (I'm 56). If I'm guessing wrong, I'll be happy to admit it. Real men act quietly and courageously to do what needs to be done for the benefit of others; faux-men like MacDonald and Driscoll talk about how "manly" they are while calling attention to themselves for their own benefit. Manliness is like "classiness"; if you have to talk about it, you don't have it. Look how Driscoll's multi-site church evaporated when he left; this is not a man interested in building something that belongs first to Christ and then to his flock; it all belonged to Driscoll, so when he left, his flock was left with nothing to build on. MacDonald is just a less charismatic version of Driscoll. Noble isn't even worth discussing. If you want an example to follow, try someone like John MacArthur. I say this despite the fact that I'm not a fan of MacArthur's Calvinist theology or young-earth creationism, but because he is an old-school man who never talks about himself or his own "manliness", he just keeps speaking and acting according to his understanding of what is required of a Christian preacher, no matter how unpopular that is or how hostile the forum to his own point of view (CNN, etc.). Follow a man like that, who is all about the message (which is all about Christ), not about himself. MacArthur doesn't even bother to defend himself when attacked, something I really admire; it squares with the Sermon on the Mount and also speaks of his own lack of insecurity. The three guys at the table are so consumed with their own image and opinions and being "right" and being seen to be right, they can't even let someone else finish speaking. MacDonald is the worst of all. Platt and Chandler are the only ones who know it's not about them; you can see how this annoys MacDonald as he baits them in an embarrassing attempt to get their egos as involved as his own. I'd bet large money that MacDonald left that venue and commented to someone about what arrogant punks Platt and Chandler were; a worldling like MacDonald can't understand why those two won't call attention to themselves, and always mistakes Christian humility for smugness, when it is the exact opposite. The real arrogant punk is Furtick, MacDonald's protege and celebrity-pastor-in-training.
Genavieve Shaw so you can judge someone else’s walk? I’m glad you’ve never fallen. But as someone who has fallen hard and hit rock bottom I see no reason for judgment.
No, I know who is the true judge. I just enjoy making fun of wolves and wicked people. You have to admit these guys don't deserve respect. Not mine anyways. I am sick of guys like this.
Timothy Chasm...i am sorry for your trouble. i hope things are going better for you. Mark Drissell and James MaDuck did not slip up and ate now sorry. They statted out with Bad motives. They are Opportunist and took advantage of God's people at every chance they had. I want nothing to do with these Evil Men. They are not Men of Honor. They do not possess an Honor!!!!
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASBS Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? [15] Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? [16] Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL dwell IN THEM AND walk AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] "Therefore, come OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. [18] "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
Three words that no one addresses that answer this question: regulative principle worship. Worship services are for the worship of God and building up of the saints. It's not a place for evangelism.
What’s crazy is that all three of these pastors lost their ministries over different moral failings. What a shame how little credibility is in the church these days.
As I watched this I almost wept! Eight years after this event occurred, the three at the table, all have experienced some sort of moral failure. The ones who could have lent a Biblical view that was backed up by godly Christian character supporting their calling to ministry, were given a couple 1 minute sound bites rather than being permitted to flesh out the substantive points that they made. So sad!!
Ivan Lobanov Frankly, we all are prone to sin. I don’t know specifics about the circumstances of two of the three but James McDonald had a pattern of misusing money given to various parts of the HBC ministries. When confronted with his sin he was harsh or verbally abusive rather than repenting. People were told to be quit, support the ministry (him) or leave. I don’t care how much he accomplished for the advancement of his own kingdom. We’re all accountable to God for our sin, and He often uses brothers or sisters to call us out in love when we sin. Are you saying because he, or other mega church Pastors should be given a free pass to do whatever they want because they’ve built a bigger church?
@@Cheryl7275 I think they should be given room for repentance and correction, rather than an "expose and discard" mentality. The "misuse" of funds is a highly subjective idea. People supported McDonald broadcasting and it is up to them to stop or not stop giving. What's completely unbiblical is coming on to a pastors work which he began (HBC) and then firing him - not because of a sinful pattern (because it was there and they didn't do anything), but because of bad publicity. Are you saying that now no one is allowed mistakes and flaws? That one first must get to be perfect, and THEN preach the word? They should have disciplined him and perhaps fixed the way finances worked, but not EXECUTING the guy so publically. There must be due process and because we are Christians - a path toward restoration)
@@ivanluther3823 I don't want to argue with you about this, but I want you to understand that I am heartbroken for what has happened in the life of the leaders and members of HBC. I agree that Pastor's and the kingdom of God are under attack. It is easy to throw stones when not knowing what is in a person's heart, or what has actually happened when an accusation is raised. The people (the Church) need to be cautious and follow scripture when an accusation is raised about a pastor/elder, or any other Chrisitan. Leadership bears responsibilities and pitfalls that the average person sitting in the church pew, doesn't understand. But there is a difference between a pastor, who when confronted with sin, repents and seeks to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, in obedience to the Word of God, and the pastor who has lost his spiritual focus somewhere along the way between building God's kingdom and building his own. Of course, none are perfect, whether they are pastors, or church members. In our mega churches, which I agree have done some amazing things to further the gospel, the temptations of the pastor being made a Christian celebrity, having more personal and fiscal financial resources and being distanced from the people he is supposed to shepherd and serve, makes it imperative that those close to the pastor are in mutual accountability relationships with him and each other. This is because we live in a fallen world, where we battle the flesh and the enemy of our souls. Wise pastors seem to understand this and guard themselves by being in those kinds of relationships. This situation at Harvest has been going on for a long time.The Elephant's Debt, a blog, has provided public records and testimonies of many who have been personally impacted by James McDonald. Multiple times, when confronted with abuse of funds and gambling, as well as a prideful and hurtfully, sarcastic manner, James McDonald has appeared on video or before the congregation to publicly repent and state his intention to do better. But according to friends and acquaintances who go, or have gone to Harvest, things have only become worse. It is many who have been close to McDonald, and those who served as elders, who have come out with public statements about the abuse and secretive culture that has been created. They have testified to calling McDonald to repentance over and over. I'm sure that there have been false accusations against pastors, and that is shameful, because God has appointed them to shepherd us, and the sheep don't always like the direction the shepherd is taking them. But the truth is, they have experienced failure, not only because they were doing something for the kingdom, but also because we all are tempted to put other things/people before our God. When that happens, we are fortunate if we are loved well, and accept correction, leading to repentance. James McDonald became one of the charlatans who had a free pass for years, giving out Rolex watches, motorcycles, and an antique car, to those whose favor he solicited. His financial misuse was so egregious that the agency that monitors Evangelical church's fiscal responsibility, removed Harvest from their membership. He fired an experienced contractor who was building Harvest Christian Academy, and tried to oversee the re-model project himself; running the church into excessive debt due to his unreadiness to be in that position. Further, he amassed a personal fortune, and used church funds for things like the gifts to others, gambling and living a lavish lifestyle. People who gave to Walk in the Word (radio ministry), didn't realize that he would take those donations and use them in non-ministry related areas. Under his watch he ran the church into over $40 million in debt, and had the arrogance and audacity to demand more money when he was fired. All of these things are public record, and to me put him square in the category of a charlatan.
"Services" aren't "God's area." The heart of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is the PRESENCE OF GOD in all places, at all times, in all cultures -- through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit IN HIS PEOPLE. Time for institutionalists to repent. The presence of God is not about Him "showing up" in a manmade, religious service.
I remember 8 years ago when I thought Driscoll was cool and funny... then he got booted out of his own church by his own elders because he’s angry and rebellious and controlling
Lots of haterade on these comments. YES some of these guys fell, but that doesn't mean they can't get back up? I thought Paul was a persecuting/killing Pharisee, Peter foot-in-mouth ear slicer.
Perry Noble only proves that God will use all our sin to reach the lost. It denotes a HUGE misunderstanding of what the corporate body, the church, is. The service that we in America call "church" should be a time of cleansing and refreshing for the body- the church- so that we can go forth and proclaim the Gospel to the culture. If you are performing church services for the lost, you are doing it wrong.
Passover is the only day that Jesus asks us to keep. Christmas is great, I love it, but just thinking about Easter and I get a lump in my throat , because as long as I have been a Christian, it always has and always will emotionally effect me when I think of the sacrifice our savior made taking on my sin. There is no part of me that feels that I need an attention grabbing demonic song to bring the message of Easter home to me. Want to be radical and “cool” ? Read Mark 14 with the Holy Spirit as your aid and I dare you not to feel heartaches and joy and love my Lord Jesus.
Rick Meunier - are you saying that all churches are ministered from God? I disagree with you! People build buildings and organize a way to govern them. The congregation chooses to live in a way that allows the Holy Spirit to work writhing the church. I don’t think there’s a lot of positive movement in a church that allows abominations to take place... THE CHURCH in a spiritual sense is not what I was talking about; even so, the Holy Spirit doesn’t make anyone do anything- we have free will.
This interview came to mind that I watched back in 2011. Sad how all these guys are now out of ministry due to their "relevance". The problem with that is to fallow Christ is not relevant to the ever changing current society. I think it's best to stay away from modern contemporary churches. Seems like they are on the highway away from God.
This is IGNORANCE! So many false comparisons were made to justify REBELLION AND WICKEDNESS. TO justify the REFUSAL to be holy and separate from the world. Is the church to be turned into a nightclub and to plays its ungodly music in the name of God. Yes, according to these carnal false teachers
You wouldn't have to try and "use" these ungodly songs if you weren't listening to them, in disobedience to God! There is an blissful ignorance of the things of the world that we are to walk in. COME OUT AND BE SEPARATE
It would be awesome if all these guys came back together to talk about what they have learned since the filming of the elephant room.
What is interesting is that Perry Nobel had problems with alcoholism and was removed from his church because of it in 2017.
@@profmo pray for him and all of them instead of bashing- God can redeem and use what devil means for evil, for good.
I don’t think Driscoll learned anything. He had his church fall apart. And now he just started a new church with no elders to hold him accountable. I don’t think he realizes that he’s the problem.
Everything that was cool yesterday becomes a gimmick tomorrow but God’s truth and the plain unveiling of scripture through prayer and sound teaching is timeless.
What troubling ministries these guys have had; Noble, Driscoll, Macdonald.
Was just thinking that....
Mark Sellers - not familiar with them, just found the videos. How do you mean?
Platt was spot on in his response !
Interesting scene with Driscoll McDonald and Nobel . All canned by their own congregations. Pride cometh before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
What is this the megachurch hall of shame?
Did He just say "Give God's spirit a little credit ". Eish the wording these guys use made my skin crawl.
I hope he was being sarcastic...
Many will come in my name.
To see these 3 now makes it so difficult to see my pastor of 20 plus years sitting in the back ground, Greg Laurie. my heart falls. this is one of the reasons I left harvest. I have so many friends there that I left behind. Then after I left I found more and more associations that turned my stomach. I loved harvest but things change now I feel as I'm alone I've yet to find another church that I can trust.
Im sorry to hear this my friend and I can relate. I was attending Jesus Culture for many years until I left because I had many questions that were not being answered. Then I did a 180 and started listening to the more orthodox reformed guys like John McArthur. At Least until he came out and said that you can still be saved after taking the mark of the beast. What do we do? Listen to clowns like those in this video. Who can I go to. Im sure your feeling the same way. These "Men of God" and I use that phrase loosely, continue to make millions of dollars, drive around in Bentleys and live in mansions while the people who they are supposed to serve are spiritually starving.
@@CultofGrace Yes, I feel the same thing. These mega churches seem to think that they can invite God's presence and save people by there new generation gimmicks and technologies. Look at the various revivals of the past such as Azusa Street Revival. People were drawn to the place due to the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Having said that I do not feel qualified to judge these Pastors because I have not achieved 1% of what they have done for the Kingdom of God
@@micjohny Don't tell yourself that brother. These false teachers might "impact" millions around the world but their theologies are mostly based on a lie. Listen to me my friend, God would rather have one true soldier of Christ who marches even through the blackest of nights and hottest of days being motivated by love than 1 million phonies who will abandoned the very love for God they confess when the going gets tough. I only know because I was once part of that 1 million. The gate is narrow and few will find it brother. Don't sell yourself short, share the word with just one person and you would have done more than Joel Osteen ever has.
These conversations are so important and still relevant. Where can we find the rest?
Cain and Abel. Both offered something to God. Only one sacrifice was accepted by God.
I'd love to listen to pastor Paul Washer responses to any of these questions! I would subscribe just to hear......
These videos are suddenly private. how do I get an invitation for viewing?
so difficult to listen to them talk, how sad
Do you have the Steven Furtick part of this?
I would love to get the perspective of a couple small church pastors in this forum. These guys are/were megachurch guys. It seems to me the church in America, or the world for that matter, are churches made up of fifty to a hundred people. That's normal. I'm not against the megachurch. You can make a case for it in scripture. What I'm for is giving small church pastors more of a voice to equip this generation of pastors. Those small church guys are unknown, laboring faithfully in obedience to the Gospel call that Jesus put on their life. If anyone deserves a voice it's those men.
The lack of healthy exegesis is staggering. Paul was not building a bridge to appeal, but to shatter the Athenian structure. Platt is the only one who is saved in this entire conversation. He is also one of the few who remain steadfast to this day.
I cannot imagine a video that has aged worse than this one.
I couldn't had said it better myself.
The discussion between David Platt and James MacDonald might have this one beat, in light of James's fall from the ministry.
Three guys who have been revealed to have terrible personal character, serial plagiarism in Driscoll's case, alcoholism in Noble's, massive self-enrichment in MacDonald's, misuse of church funds in the case of at least 2, churches which imploded after they left in at least 2 cases (remains to be seen what happens to Harvest -- they're saddled with over $40 Million in debt and their "charismatic" leader is gone, so good luck paying that off), and all 3 were fired or resigned in disgrace. And this theological discussion you're watching was originally only available on a pay-to-view basis, like a heavyweight fight. First, you aren't anywhere near as entertaining. And guys, your personal opinions on how to do church should not require Christians to pay good money. You're pastors, aren't you, why isn't this provided free as part of your ministry to the Body? And no, you don't need all that money to pay the cost of production of this thing. All 3 could meet up thru free online tech and distributed the resulting free via RUclips, and promoted for no add'l cost on your 3 churches' existing web sites/social media, etc.
Yes. 18:24
I fired narcissistic Pastor, a fired gambler Pastor and a fired alcoholic Pastor go into a debate...
Soooooooo crazy though, man I really admired Mark D., and James M.. I didn't know about Perry, but yeah, I'm not sure what that says about me.
It means you're probably under 35 and have no idea what real manhood looks like, because our culture has abandoned it during my lifetime (I'm 56). If I'm guessing wrong, I'll be happy to admit it. Real men act quietly and courageously to do what needs to be done for the benefit of others; faux-men like MacDonald and Driscoll talk about how "manly" they are while calling attention to themselves for their own benefit. Manliness is like "classiness"; if you have to talk about it, you don't have it. Look how Driscoll's multi-site church evaporated when he left; this is not a man interested in building something that belongs first to Christ and then to his flock; it all belonged to Driscoll, so when he left, his flock was left with nothing to build on. MacDonald is just a less charismatic version of Driscoll. Noble isn't even worth discussing.
If you want an example to follow, try someone like John MacArthur. I say this despite the fact that I'm not a fan of MacArthur's Calvinist theology or young-earth creationism, but because he is an old-school man who never talks about himself or his own "manliness", he just keeps speaking and acting according to his understanding of what is required of a Christian preacher, no matter how unpopular that is or how hostile the forum to his own point of view (CNN, etc.). Follow a man like that, who is all about the message (which is all about Christ), not about himself. MacArthur doesn't even bother to defend himself when attacked, something I really admire; it squares with the Sermon on the Mount and also speaks of his own lack of insecurity.
The three guys at the table are so consumed with their own image and opinions and being "right" and being seen to be right, they can't even let someone else finish speaking. MacDonald is the worst of all. Platt and Chandler are the only ones who know it's not about them; you can see how this annoys MacDonald as he baits them in an embarrassing attempt to get their egos as involved as his own. I'd bet large money that MacDonald left that venue and commented to someone about what arrogant punks Platt and Chandler were; a worldling like MacDonald can't understand why those two won't call attention to themselves, and always mistakes Christian humility for smugness, when it is the exact opposite. The real arrogant punk is Furtick, MacDonald's protege and celebrity-pastor-in-training.
Glad to see that responses to this video are as judgmental as I thought they would be.
As it should be! They earned every ounce of criticism they get and more!!
Genavieve Shaw so you can judge someone else’s walk? I’m glad you’ve never fallen. But as someone who has fallen hard and hit rock bottom I see no reason for judgment.
No, I know who is the true judge. I just enjoy making fun of wolves and wicked people. You have to admit these guys don't deserve respect. Not mine anyways. I am sick of guys like this.
Timothy Chasm...i am sorry for your trouble. i hope things are going better for you. Mark Drissell and James MaDuck did not slip up and ate now sorry. They statted out with Bad motives. They are Opportunist and took advantage of God's people at every chance they had. I want nothing to do with these Evil Men. They are not Men of Honor. They do not possess an Honor!!!!
You watched this video and didn’t make any kind of judgement? I doubt that. Didn’t Jesus say to judge with righteous judgement(John 7:24)??
Why dont they invite one of the Swaggarts...they will have a good time...
Macdonald is right, Highway to Hell doesn't belong in a church whatsoever!
All of these pastors ended up in crazy scandals. 😂
Hey Parry the question is who is your lord. It was you who use that song not God. Be careful what you credit to God, and evil song?
The Bible says that Elders/Pastors should not be lovers of Money. These guys are. They were supposed to premiere examples of Chrst-likeness, of
These 3 taking a shot at Mel Gibson? Holy smokes, they see that guy fall and don't realize they are next!
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASBS
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? [15] Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? [16] Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL dwell IN THEM AND walk AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] "Therefore, come OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. [18] "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
Three words that no one addresses that answer this question: regulative principle worship.
Worship services are for the worship of God and building up of the saints. It's not a place for evangelism.
What’s crazy is that all three of these pastors lost their ministries over different moral failings. What a shame how little credibility is in the church these days.
As I watched this I almost wept! Eight years after this event occurred, the three at the table, all have experienced some sort of moral failure. The ones who could have lent a Biblical view that was backed up by godly Christian character supporting their calling to ministry, were given a couple 1 minute sound bites rather than being permitted to flesh out the substantive points that they made. So sad!!
They experienced failure because they where doing something for the kingdom, unlike many who did and do nothing.
Ivan Lobanov Frankly, we all are prone to sin. I don’t know specifics about the circumstances of two of the three but James McDonald had a pattern of misusing money given to various parts of the HBC ministries. When confronted with his sin he was harsh or verbally abusive rather than repenting. People were told to be quit, support the ministry (him) or leave. I don’t care how much he accomplished for the advancement of his own kingdom. We’re all accountable to God for our sin, and He often uses brothers or sisters to call us out in love when we sin. Are you saying because he, or other mega church Pastors should be given a free pass to do whatever they want because they’ve built a bigger church?
@@Cheryl7275 I think they should be given room for repentance and correction, rather than an "expose and discard" mentality. The "misuse" of funds is a highly subjective idea. People supported McDonald broadcasting and it is up to them to stop or not stop giving. What's completely unbiblical is coming on to a pastors work which he began (HBC) and then firing him - not because of a sinful pattern (because it was there and they didn't do anything), but because of bad publicity. Are you saying that now no one is allowed mistakes and flaws? That one first must get to be perfect, and THEN preach the word? They should have disciplined him and perhaps fixed the way finances worked, but not EXECUTING the guy so publically. There must be due process and because we are Christians - a path toward restoration)
@@Cheryl7275 I keep seeing good minister's mistakes exploited to damage the kingdom, and charlatans given a free pass.
@@ivanluther3823 I don't want to argue with you about this, but I want you to understand that I am heartbroken for what has happened in the life of the leaders and members of HBC. I agree that Pastor's and the kingdom of God are under attack. It is easy to throw stones when not knowing what is in a person's heart, or what has actually happened when an accusation is raised. The people (the Church) need to be cautious and follow scripture when an accusation is raised about a pastor/elder, or any other Chrisitan. Leadership bears responsibilities and pitfalls that the average person sitting in the church pew, doesn't understand. But there is a difference between a pastor, who when confronted with sin, repents and seeks to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, in obedience to the Word of God, and the pastor who has lost his spiritual focus somewhere along the way between building God's kingdom and building his own. Of course, none are perfect, whether they are pastors, or church members. In our mega churches, which I agree have done some amazing things to further the gospel, the temptations of the pastor being made a Christian celebrity, having more personal and fiscal financial resources and being distanced from the people he is supposed to shepherd and serve, makes it imperative that those close to the pastor are in mutual accountability relationships with him and each other. This is because we live in a fallen world, where we battle the flesh and the enemy of our souls. Wise pastors seem to understand this and guard themselves by being in those kinds of relationships. This situation at Harvest has been going on for a long time.The Elephant's Debt, a blog, has provided public records and testimonies of many who have been personally impacted by James McDonald. Multiple times, when confronted with abuse of funds and gambling, as well as a prideful and hurtfully, sarcastic manner, James McDonald has appeared on video or before the congregation to publicly repent and state his intention to do better. But according to friends and acquaintances who go, or have gone to Harvest, things have only become worse. It is many who have been close to McDonald, and those who served as elders, who have come out with public statements about the abuse and secretive culture that has been created. They have testified to calling McDonald to repentance over and over.
I'm sure that there have been false accusations against pastors, and that is shameful, because God has appointed them to shepherd us, and the sheep don't always like the direction the shepherd is taking them. But the truth is, they have experienced failure, not only because they were doing something for the kingdom, but also because we all are tempted to put other things/people before our God. When that happens, we are fortunate if we are loved well, and accept correction, leading to repentance. James McDonald became one of the charlatans who had a free pass for years, giving out Rolex watches, motorcycles, and an antique car, to those whose favor he solicited. His financial misuse was so egregious that the agency that monitors Evangelical church's fiscal responsibility, removed Harvest from their membership. He fired an experienced contractor who was building Harvest Christian Academy, and tried to oversee the re-model project himself; running the church into excessive debt due to his unreadiness to be in that position. Further, he amassed a personal fortune, and used church funds for things like the gifts to others, gambling and living a lavish lifestyle. People who gave to Walk in the Word (radio ministry), didn't realize that he would take those donations and use them in non-ministry related areas. Under his watch he ran the church into over $40 million in debt, and had the arrogance and audacity to demand more money when he was fired. All of these things are public record, and to me put him square in the category of a charlatan.
"Services" aren't "God's area." The heart of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is the PRESENCE OF GOD in all places, at all times, in all cultures -- through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit IN HIS PEOPLE. Time for institutionalists to repent. The presence of God is not about Him "showing up" in a manmade, religious service.
Rick Meunier yes!
lol I've seen videos of Driscoll proclaim calvinism and deny it....
I remember 8 years ago when I thought Driscoll was cool and funny... then he got booted out of his own church by his own elders because he’s angry and rebellious and controlling
Lots of haterade on these comments. YES some of these guys fell, but that doesn't mean they can't get back up? I thought Paul was a persecuting/killing Pharisee, Peter foot-in-mouth ear slicer.
We as humans redeem nothing.
Does anybody know when they talked RACISM
Perry Noble only proves that God will use all our sin to reach the lost. It denotes a HUGE misunderstanding of what the corporate body, the church, is. The service that we in America call "church" should be a time of cleansing and refreshing for the body- the church- so that we can go forth and proclaim the Gospel to the culture. If you are performing church services for the lost, you are doing it wrong.
Passover is the only day that Jesus asks us to keep. Christmas is great, I love it, but just thinking about Easter and I get a lump in my throat , because as long as I have been a Christian, it always has and always will emotionally effect me when I think of the sacrifice our savior made taking on my sin. There is no part of me that feels that I need an attention grabbing demonic song to bring the message of Easter home to me.
Want to be radical and “cool” ? Read Mark 14 with the Holy Spirit as your aid and I dare you not to feel heartaches and joy and love my Lord Jesus.
stack of discredited pastors at the table
Perry Noble is confused and rebellious
Mark Driscoll is no longer a pastor
Google "Trinity church Scottsdale" check out who the pastor is ✌
MacDonald was fired and is trying to resurrect his ministry on-line instead of in church.
My point would've been heaven is not a culture...
All 3 unqualified for the pastorate.
Oh, I just noticed Furtick is there, too -- another overpaid, overhyped clown, an entertainer not a servant leader.
Cody Laumeister - start your own church.
@@johnstown2451 No man can start a church. It's Holy Spirit's business to build Christ's Church. His Church is sourced in the heavenly realm.
Rick Meunier - are you saying that all churches are ministered from God?
I disagree with you! People build buildings and organize a way to govern them. The congregation chooses to live in a way that allows the Holy Spirit to work writhing the church. I don’t think there’s a lot of positive movement in a church that allows abominations to take place...
THE CHURCH in a spiritual sense is not what I was talking about; even so, the Holy Spirit doesn’t make anyone do anything- we have free will.
This interview came to mind that I watched back in 2011. Sad how all these guys are now out of ministry due to their "relevance". The problem with that is to fallow Christ is not relevant to the ever changing current society. I think it's best to stay away from modern contemporary churches. Seems like they are on the highway away from God.
I thank God none of these guys are my pastors what a joke.
God used astrology to find the wise men....
Oof, no. The wise men used astrology to find God... and it led them to Harod.
No. Actually it was astroNOmy
This is IGNORANCE! So many false comparisons were made to justify REBELLION AND WICKEDNESS. TO justify the REFUSAL to be holy and separate from the world. Is the church to be turned into a nightclub and to plays its ungodly music in the name of God. Yes, according to these carnal false teachers
You wouldn't have to try and "use" these ungodly songs if you weren't listening to them, in disobedience to God! There is an blissful ignorance of the things of the world that we are to walk in. COME OUT AND BE SEPARATE