For those who care. The "Enterpirse Class" for the MKIV simulator is correct. The Entrprise was renamed from the Constitution class to the Enterprises class after the completed refit in the previous movie. There were new design elements in the refit. I think that some were still in trials. The Federation probable the refits changed the ship enough that a new class designation was in order. I am sure that newer crusers would follow a similar design as the enterprise.
Yeah, this one feels intentional to me too. Once I "discovered" the sign on the door, I instantly thought of Spock's casket. They could have given the simulator any name they wanted, or simply left it unnamed, but instead they gave it a name that not only hints at Spock's coffin, but connects back to Space Seed as well. Pretty clever indeed!
Omg I just googled Mark 15 34 - It contains the line: "My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?" I know Star Trek had a few biblical references here and there, but this takes Easter eggs to a whole new level. AMAZINGLY INSIGHTFUL VIDEO! 🖖 yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep
I think there is a simpler Easter egg explanation. The VI and IV reflect the Vulcan 'Live long and prosper' gesture the V is obvious, and the I is the thumb.
I was gonna make a joke comment - that the answer is in - Mark 4-6, - watched further, and... oh. -- "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables"
Yes indeed "Truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." That's from John not Mark, but the sentiment overlaps I think. I'm sure you are spot on about the Mark IV connection. Especially with "Space Seed" being the inspiration for Star Trek II, and the fact that (aside from Khan) the major plot component of Star Trek II is actually named the GENESIS device. The Mark VI connection is not so clear to me though. Maybe it is as you suggested that Mark 6:14 is actually being referred to. Mark 6 is mainly known for the brilliant dichotomy between the sensual feast of Herod (where he kills John the Baptist) and the spiritual feast of Christ as he feeds the 5,000. But I'm not sure if Mark 6:14 is the lone referent for the Mark VI on the torpedo or what else it could be. Out of curiosity is the torpedo labeled Mark VI in Star Trek II or only in Star Trek III? I'd have to rewatch later to be sure. By the way, not that you need any suggestions for your excellent channel, but perhaps in the future, it might be an interesting idea to make a video about all the professional science fiction writers who worked on or inspired the episodes of the original series and the animated series (and perhaps the later shows too). This occurred to me since Strange New Worlds recently lifted a Le Guin story for one of their episodes (without crediting her I believe). I like TNG and DS9 as Star Trek shows, but I think everyone can admit that the original series was the most heavily influenced by science fiction writers and stories. Spinrad, Sturgeon, Niven, Fredric Brown (as a source), just to name a few. Oh well, just an idea I had. Keep up the great work on your channel, as we meta trek with you among the stars. :)
As a continuation of that sentiment, "And by their fruit you will recognize them." -Matthew 7:16 Admittedly, I had to reach a bit further than usual to find some Biblical connection with Mark VI. I've actually wondered if Mark VI wasn't a mistake made by the production crew. It would be easy enough to invert the numerals. Every other "Mark" reference in the movie is followed by a four. But it is what it is, regardless. I'm glad you mentioned the feeding of the 5,000, as one could argue that's another connection to The Wrath of Khan, as the Genesis device would have "feed the 5,000", metaphorically speaking, had it been used as intended. And btw, Mark IV is on Spock's torpedo casing in both movies. It's rather coincidental that you should mention the sf writers that wrote for TOS. I was just pondering a day or two ago if current Star Trek might benefit from hiring current sf writers. I would be interested in doing a video on the subject. I'd likely come at it from the perspective of how much better the writing was in TOS, and the reason why that is, including the caliber of writers they had writing for them. This is a topic that I've discussed at length with friends of mine, and have some pretty solid theories on. As always, your comments are much appreciated! Thank you for your support.
@@MetaTrek You know if the number on the torpedo was a mistake and it was supposed to say Mark IV that would tie everything together perfectly in a bow: the simulator where Spock "dies" having the same number as the torpedo where Spock was actually buried--then the two "mark 4" numbers in the coordinates would match perfectly too (the one the location of the pseudo-death and the other the location of the actual death). Meyer already packed several allusions into the film: from Dickens, Melville, Forester, and (continuing the beat established in the original episode) Milton--why not a Biblical reference too (beyond the name of the project being the Genesis Project)? Glad you liked the idea about the influence of professional science fiction writers and published s.f. stories on the original series. I suspected that would be a concept you would already be interested in. Another important professional author I meant to mention but forgot was Robert Bloch who penned three original episodes. TNG was excellent (from Season 3 onwards) at being TNG, with its focus on character development and political intrigue, but even the writers and producers of the show were aware that they did not have that many traditional science fiction concepts in the show as it moved through the seasons. For example, not too long ago I was reading on Memory Alpha the entry for the 5th season TNG episode "The Game," and the entry references Rick Berman reminding Michael Pillar (during the development of the episode) that they had been recently discussing the fact that TNG did not have that many science fiction premises on the series (and one of the selling points for "The Game" was that it had more of a science fiction feel to it). There are some exceptions of course (I think "Tin Man" was loosely based on a published s.f. story for example), but for the most part the connection to s.f. literature was more a province of the original series. Thanks and cheers!
I personally would have liked it if Spock's torpedo casket had read "Mark IV," but as an alternative to "Mark VI" being a production error, the creators of Star Trek II might have felt using the exact name on both the simulator and the torpedo might have been too "on the nose." They may have wanted to make the connection, but not be too obvious about it. Although Mark IV/Mark VI is pretty obvious in its own right. Another Biblical reference can be found in ST:III, when David and Saavik find Spock's empty casket, and the creatures slithering around it, David comments, "They were fruitful and multiplied." Which is, of course, what God said to Adam and Eve. A bit ironic, wouldn't you say? As David could be seen as the "creator" of the Genesis planet, either directly or indirectly depending on how you look at it. We should add Harlen Ellison and George Clayton Johnson to the list of sf writers. I noticed the lack of sf concepts in a lot of Star Trek after TOS. In a lot of later series it seemed more like a light-hearted drama set against an outer space backdrop. TOS was definitely more SF than the rest, and as I've always said, it's SF literature made for TV. Cheers!
@Meta Trek, we would have to add Matheson to the list of writers too. A cool book idea for an anthology would be to include short stories by authors who either wrote for or inspired ST episodes. “The Man Who Lost the Sea” would be my suggestion for a Sturgeon story!
Matheson is definitely a noteworthy addition. That short story collection is a great idea. "Paladin of the Lost Hour" would be my suggestion for Harlan Ellison.
IV and VI are also opposites. One was simulated, and therefore not real, or false, while the other was real, and truthful. Also, if we examine the Gospel according to St. Mark, Chapter Six explains that a Prophet is not welcome and/or acknowledged among his own people. This happened with Spock as well. He was honored among the humans, receiving a human funeral permeated with human culture. Tears from Saavik, and even Scott playing Amazing Grace. The lyrics to the song also speak a lot about Spock, with many parallels. Spock was never welcome among the Vulcans. This lead him to pursuit a career in Starfleet and work among humans. Unlike the Vulcans, the humans seemed to accept him without reservations.
Those are some great insights! I originally wondered if the IV/VI discrepancy may have been a production error, as the torpedo tube and the simulator door would have been stenciled at different times, and inverting the Roman numerals would have been easy enough to do. I really like your take on it, however, as a positive/intentional reason is preferable to a mere mistake. I also love your insight into Mark 6, relating it to how Spock’s own people rejected him. Thanks for posting this well thought out comment!
This was very, very subtle and clever! I’ve never thought of this once in over 100 views of this film, and I’ve read the Bible front to back on multiple occasions, and focussed on specific parts of it uncountable times, for subtle allegorical use in my own works as a young, arrogant author who wanted very much to write (big-L) ‘Literature’.
It's amazing how many layers there can be in a film, even after multiple viewings. I hope that you’ve kept up with your own literary pursuits and I'm honored that this insight resonated with you!
You are right that there are still hidden surprises in this film. Recently I watched a video which claimed that on the directory on the wall behind Kirk and Spock one of the names of the Star Fleet officers listed is Xon. Hmmm…. Fascinating.
I guess that means that Xon is officially part of the canon. Apparently they created Commander Sonak for TMP so that they could retain the character of Xon in case they went to series afterwards, or if they wanted to include him in a future movie. Instead of using him, they developed Lt. Saavik instead, but he was part of the inspiration behind her character.
It is interesting to see how the ideas from the late 70s and early 80s developed into the form we know. I just checked the source again, and the directory is in the room with the big globe where Kirk was reading from A Tale of Two Cities. On the directory behind him, the name “Captain Xon” definitely appears.
I've always been fascinated by Star Trek's "lost years," the period between TAS and TMP. I don't think the names on that directory were even readable until they released the movie on Blu-ray. Thanks for posting this!
@@MetaTrek Well, you're right. I did like that reference, but the entire study was one of the best I've ever seen for Strek. You need to be saluted. Every once in a while, I find myself drifting away from Star Trek. It's YOUR videos that often bring me back. Are you on Facebook at all?
It really means a lot to know that you appreciate my efforts. I have so much more that I want to get into, and a lot of it will never be published at this rate. With my full time job, I can only produce 1 video per month. I'd love to do this full time, and double, or even triple my output. I'm not on Facebook really at all (my wife posts my videos in Facebook Trek groups for me), but I do correspond via email. It's on the about page on my Meta Trek channel if you're interested. Cheers!
@@MetaTrek I am trying to get a video series started. I've been a literature professor for years, now retired. I want to do a series on how to read and appreciate poetry. So many people say, "I hate poetry," and the only reason they hate it is that they never really learned how to read it. It's not like reading a story. There is a degree (a small degree, but still a degree) of skill in reading a poem over reading prose. Perhaps we can eventually help each other.
It's a bit of a stretch, but if Prometheus could make a world called LV 223 and then someone recalls Leviticus 22:3, from the Bible then anything is possible. I agree with the Mark designation being used for model numbers / versions And Star Trek has commonly used 'Mark' in piloting a course. 360 degrees horizontal and then 'Mark' to another 360 degrees vertical. For both the Klingon approach AND the Mutara nebula to be a mere '4' on the vertical set, implies that the ship I'd already very close to the heading. So; 153 'Mark' 4 would translate as; 'Turn that knob till we're at 153 on our 360 degree heading, then climb upwards by 4 degrees and we're nose to nose bearing.
Your editing of Spock's death as originally intended - during the first battle midst the movie - is quite elegant and "realistic".
Thanks!
For those who care. The "Enterpirse Class" for the MKIV simulator is correct. The Entrprise was renamed from the Constitution class to the Enterprises class after the completed refit in the previous movie. There were new design elements in the refit. I think that some were still in trials. The Federation probable the refits changed the ship enough that a new class designation was in order. I am sure that newer crusers would follow a similar design as the enterprise.
Nicholas Meyer was a clever movie maker, it would not surprise me if many or all of these connections were intentional
Yeah, this one feels intentional to me too. Once I "discovered" the sign on the door, I instantly thought of Spock's casket. They could have given the simulator any name they wanted, or simply left it unnamed, but instead they gave it a name that not only hints at Spock's coffin, but connects back to Space Seed as well. Pretty clever indeed!
Omg I just googled Mark 15 34 -
It contains the line: "My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"
I know Star Trek had a few biblical references here and there, but this takes Easter eggs to a whole new level. AMAZINGLY INSIGHTFUL VIDEO!
🖖 yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep
And the connections continue! Thanks for posting. 🖖 yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep
I think there is a simpler Easter egg explanation. The VI and IV reflect the Vulcan 'Live long and prosper' gesture the V is obvious, and the I is the thumb.
Very original, I love it!
I was gonna make a joke comment - that the answer is in - Mark 4-6, - watched further, and... oh. -- "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables"
"If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.” -Mark 4:23
Yes indeed "Truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." That's from John not Mark, but the sentiment overlaps I think. I'm sure you are spot on about the Mark IV connection. Especially with "Space Seed" being the inspiration for Star Trek II, and the fact that (aside from Khan) the major plot component of Star Trek II is actually named the GENESIS device.
The Mark VI connection is not so clear to me though. Maybe it is as you suggested that Mark 6:14 is actually being referred to. Mark 6 is mainly known for the brilliant dichotomy between the sensual feast of Herod (where he kills John the Baptist) and the spiritual feast of Christ as he feeds the 5,000. But I'm not sure if Mark 6:14 is the lone referent for the Mark VI on the torpedo or what else it could be. Out of curiosity is the torpedo labeled Mark VI in Star Trek II or only in Star Trek III? I'd have to rewatch later to be sure.
By the way, not that you need any suggestions for your excellent channel, but perhaps in the future, it might be an interesting idea to make a video about all the professional science fiction writers who worked on or inspired the episodes of the original series and the animated series (and perhaps the later shows too). This occurred to me since Strange New Worlds recently lifted a Le Guin story for one of their episodes (without crediting her I believe). I like TNG and DS9 as Star Trek shows, but I think everyone can admit that the original series was the most heavily influenced by science fiction writers and stories. Spinrad, Sturgeon, Niven, Fredric Brown (as a source), just to name a few. Oh well, just an idea I had. Keep up the great work on your channel, as we meta trek with you among the stars. :)
As a continuation of that sentiment, "And by their fruit you will recognize them." -Matthew 7:16
Admittedly, I had to reach a bit further than usual to find some Biblical connection with Mark VI. I've actually wondered if Mark VI wasn't a mistake made by the production crew. It would be easy enough to invert the numerals. Every other "Mark" reference in the movie is followed by a four. But it is what it is, regardless. I'm glad you mentioned the feeding of the 5,000, as one could argue that's another connection to The Wrath of Khan, as the Genesis device would have "feed the 5,000", metaphorically speaking, had it been used as intended. And btw, Mark IV is on Spock's torpedo casing in both movies.
It's rather coincidental that you should mention the sf writers that wrote for TOS. I was just pondering a day or two ago if current Star Trek might benefit from hiring current sf writers. I would be interested in doing a video on the subject. I'd likely come at it from the perspective of how much better the writing was in TOS, and the reason why that is, including the caliber of writers they had writing for them. This is a topic that I've discussed at length with friends of mine, and have some pretty solid theories on.
As always, your comments are much appreciated! Thank you for your support.
@@MetaTrek You know if the number on the torpedo was a mistake and it was supposed to say Mark IV that would tie everything together perfectly in a bow: the simulator where Spock "dies" having the same number as the torpedo where Spock was actually buried--then the two "mark 4" numbers in the coordinates would match perfectly too (the one the location of the pseudo-death and the other the location of the actual death).
Meyer already packed several allusions into the film: from Dickens, Melville, Forester, and (continuing the beat established in the original episode) Milton--why not a Biblical reference too (beyond the name of the project being the Genesis Project)?
Glad you liked the idea about the influence of professional science fiction writers and published s.f. stories on the original series. I suspected that would be a concept you would already be interested in. Another important professional author I meant to mention but forgot was Robert Bloch who penned three original episodes. TNG was excellent (from Season 3 onwards) at being TNG, with its focus on character development and political intrigue, but even the writers and producers of the show were aware that they did not have that many traditional science fiction concepts in the show as it moved through the seasons. For example, not too long ago I was reading on Memory Alpha the entry for the 5th season TNG episode "The Game," and the entry references Rick Berman reminding Michael Pillar (during the development of the episode) that they had been recently discussing the fact that TNG did not have that many science fiction premises on the series (and one of the selling points for "The Game" was that it had more of a science fiction feel to it). There are some exceptions of course (I think "Tin Man" was loosely based on a published s.f. story for example), but for the most part the connection to s.f. literature was more a province of the original series.
Thanks and cheers!
I personally would have liked it if Spock's torpedo casket had read "Mark IV," but as an alternative to "Mark VI" being a production error, the creators of Star Trek II might have felt using the exact name on both the simulator and the torpedo might have been too "on the nose." They may have wanted to make the connection, but not be too obvious about it. Although Mark IV/Mark VI is pretty obvious in its own right.
Another Biblical reference can be found in ST:III, when David and Saavik find Spock's empty casket, and the creatures slithering around it, David comments, "They were fruitful and multiplied." Which is, of course, what God said to Adam and Eve. A bit ironic, wouldn't you say? As David could be seen as the "creator" of the Genesis planet, either directly or indirectly depending on how you look at it.
We should add Harlen Ellison and George Clayton Johnson to the list of sf writers. I noticed the lack of sf concepts in a lot of Star Trek after TOS. In a lot of later series it seemed more like a light-hearted drama set against an outer space backdrop. TOS was definitely more SF than the rest, and as I've always said, it's SF literature made for TV.
Cheers!
@Meta Trek, we would have to add Matheson to the list of writers too. A cool book idea for an anthology would be to include short stories by authors who either wrote for or inspired ST episodes. “The Man Who Lost the Sea” would be my suggestion for a Sturgeon story!
Matheson is definitely a noteworthy addition. That short story collection is a great idea. "Paladin of the Lost Hour" would be my suggestion for Harlan Ellison.
IV and VI are also opposites. One was simulated, and therefore not real, or false, while the other was real, and truthful.
Also, if we examine the Gospel according to St. Mark, Chapter Six explains that a Prophet is not welcome and/or acknowledged among his own people.
This happened with Spock as well. He was honored among the humans, receiving a human funeral permeated with human culture. Tears from Saavik, and even Scott playing Amazing Grace. The lyrics to the song also speak a lot about Spock, with many parallels.
Spock was never welcome among the Vulcans. This lead him to pursuit a career in Starfleet and work among humans. Unlike the Vulcans, the humans seemed to accept him without reservations.
Those are some great insights! I originally wondered if the IV/VI discrepancy may have been a production error, as the torpedo tube and the simulator door would have been stenciled at different times, and inverting the Roman numerals would have been easy enough to do. I really like your take on it, however, as a positive/intentional reason is preferable to a mere mistake. I also love your insight into Mark 6, relating it to how Spock’s own people rejected him. Thanks for posting this well thought out comment!
This was very, very subtle and clever! I’ve never thought of this once in over 100 views of this film, and I’ve read the Bible front to back on multiple occasions, and focussed on specific parts of it uncountable times, for subtle allegorical use in my own works as a young, arrogant author who wanted very much to write (big-L) ‘Literature’.
It's amazing how many layers there can be in a film, even after multiple viewings. I hope that you’ve kept up with your own literary pursuits and I'm honored that this insight resonated with you!
You are right that there are still hidden surprises in this film. Recently I watched a video which claimed that on the directory on the wall behind Kirk and Spock one of the names of the Star Fleet officers listed is Xon. Hmmm…. Fascinating.
I guess that means that Xon is officially part of the canon. Apparently they created Commander Sonak for TMP so that they could retain the character of Xon in case they went to series afterwards, or if they wanted to include him in a future movie. Instead of using him, they developed Lt. Saavik instead, but he was part of the inspiration behind her character.
It is interesting to see how the ideas from the late 70s and early 80s developed into the form we know.
I just checked the source again, and the directory is in the room with the big globe where Kirk was reading from A Tale of Two Cities. On the directory behind him, the name “Captain Xon” definitely appears.
I've always been fascinated by Star Trek's "lost years," the period between TAS and TMP.
I don't think the names on that directory were even readable until they released the movie on Blu-ray. Thanks for posting this!
WOW! Profound! Well done!
Thank you kindly!
And insightful and brilliant analysis.
I had a feeling that you'd appreciate the reference to the Parable of the Sower. It's good to hear from you again!
@@MetaTrek Well, you're right. I did like that reference, but the entire study was one of the best I've ever seen for Strek. You need to be saluted.
Every once in a while, I find myself drifting away from Star Trek. It's YOUR videos that often bring me back. Are you on Facebook at all?
It really means a lot to know that you appreciate my efforts. I have so much more that I want to get into, and a lot of it will never be published at this rate. With my full time job, I can only produce 1 video per month. I'd love to do this full time, and double, or even triple my output. I'm not on Facebook really at all (my wife posts my videos in Facebook Trek groups for me), but I do correspond via email. It's on the about page on my Meta Trek channel if you're interested. Cheers!
@@MetaTrek I am trying to get a video series started. I've been a literature professor for years, now retired. I want to do a series on how to read and appreciate poetry. So many people say, "I hate poetry," and the only reason they hate it is that they never really learned how to read it. It's not like reading a story. There is a degree (a small degree, but still a degree) of skill in reading a poem over reading prose. Perhaps we can eventually help each other.
I'd like to hear more, but let's move this off the comment section. Shoot me an email when you have the chance.
I think you are reaching with the Mark 4 reference. It could be just simply like lazy writing.
316 mark 4 ..... Sent his son to die so other may live John 316? Foreshadowing Spock's sacrifice?
Can't believe I missed that! Thank you for the comment.
Fascinating 🖖 🤔
It's a bit of a stretch, but if Prometheus could make a world called LV 223 and then someone recalls Leviticus 22:3, from the Bible then anything is possible.
I agree with the Mark designation being used for model numbers / versions
And Star Trek has commonly used 'Mark' in piloting a course. 360 degrees horizontal and then 'Mark' to another 360 degrees vertical.
For both the Klingon approach AND the Mutara nebula to be a mere '4' on the vertical set, implies that the ship I'd already very close to the heading.
So; 153 'Mark' 4 would translate as;
'Turn that knob till we're at 153 on our 360 degree heading, then climb upwards by 4 degrees and we're nose to nose bearing.
I like your explanation of how the spatial coordinates used in Star Trek work. Very informative. Thanks for posting!
Nonsense.
fascinating...