Luke's Order Terrified the Original Jedi
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
- Luke had to work with what he could, but the New Jedi Order series covered why Luke's order terrified a member of the original Jedi Order
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_"Jedi shouldn't be allowed to get married. Back in my day, it was forbidden."_
"Yes, but have you considered that women are cute and soft and they smell nice?"
Problematic, in case the complainant is understandably gay or asexual/aromantic.
Luke: You got my nephews killed. Shut up before i gut you like i did to Lumina. Because i CAN kick the collective ass of your order. Just like father before me.
So do Wookies. Aaand that's why Kylo burned down the academy.
@@michaelandreipalon359 LGBTQIAMOUSE+ people leave normal people alone for five femtoseconds challenge - IMPOSSIBLE.
Maybe it's being gay or ace that is problematic, not being normal? Bet that makes you mad.
@@justinhammer3196wookies canonically stink.
This is the New Jedi Order I wanted in the Sequel Trilogy.
One of the interesting things that strikes me, learning about how legends handled the gulf between the Old and New Jedi orders, is how much Timothy Zahn was almost prophetic in *the first chapter* of Heir to the Empire, when Luke has his last conversation with Obi-Wan's Ghost. They have a great exchange where Luke calls himself something along the lines of "The Last of the Jedi of Old" and Obi-Wan directly contradicts him "Not the last of the old- the first if the new."
Like, that captures the divide so beautifully and with the full blessing of the main symbol of the Jedi of old throught the OT no less- in a short chapter that's really just setup for Luke spending the trilogy feeling inadequate to found a new Jedi Order and learning that he needs to make it anyways, and possibly flirt with that cute red-headed ex-assassin.
The idea and the problem of Jedi Dynasties amassing power within the Republic is a fun one, because its in a way a human problem with our own lifespan. Because if some generations of human Jedi-Dynasties are a problem, what about species like Yoda who can live several hundred years and amass that same power within the same person? Yoda, in a strange way and not by his own choice, had what Palpatine always wanted and that seems not to be seen as a problem for people like Vergere.
🤣oh man thats funny, destroys her Argument kinda
The no attachments rule directly led to the downfall of the Jedi since they didn’t evolve. Why would Luke perpetuate that mistake when forming his new order? The old order fell, proving the no attachment rule was wrong. Luke righted it.
Luke be like: “Hmm, you have all this advice about how to be a jedi. I’m going to ignore that and no one is alive to tell me no”
“I can save every sith!”
Blue Ghosts: Alright ladies and gents- time to get really haunting.
Some other guy, possibly Kyle Katarn: "Define 'save'?"
Jedi having families and forming dynasties still seems to me less immoral than telling families to give up Force sensitive kids.
Yeah, it's in stark contrast with George's recent comments about his sequels "Luke never got married (because apparently marriage is ownership), but kept recruiting 3 or 4 year olds"
True, but where's the fun in that?
@@liamclarke91Multiverse Theory is a b***h, and Lucas is no sacred cow anymore.
The families only gave their kids away by choice, though.
@@papawedge7396 It wasn't a matter of exigency such as the child having an almost, conventionally, uncurable form of cancer and the jedi had a successful treatment but it was only successful when applied for 40 years, they gave their perfectly healthy children.
Thank you for clarifying Vergere's original intention! It drives me bonkers when fans can only see the retcon, and fail to understand the original concept of the character... she was intended to be an old republic era Jedi who simply missed out on the Clone Wars.
Even when you point out to them that even Troy Denning himself admitted he had to research and write why he could do that retcon to her character to have Lucasfilm editorial approve it. There are just some fans who fail to listen and will actively attack you for not saying she was a secret Sith the entire time and that was always the plan.
Stories and fictional franchise are, well, works in progress. If you can only see the in universe conclusion, you fail to understand writers implications along the way... you only get the final writers take on events, often not the characters creators
There is a worse take on this IMHO, because this whole thing about Vergere being a sith, as well as the "dark-sider who did no harm" Darth Vectivus, is all from claims that Lumiya makes to manipulate Jacen Solo, yet both fans and even Wookiepedia took it verbatim without even questioning whether she might be talking a completely fabricated bullshit... And all that even after it was estabilished that she used an advanced, dark-side variation of Force Illusion for the entire time and thus wasn't below altering the perception of reality for anyone around.
And while I am inclined to believe Vergere might have been playing a darker, sithier game with Jacen (as I have found some of her methods and claims rather un-Jedi-like), I don't buy the Vectivus story at all. Yet it is on Wookiepedia written as a fact and people cite it as lore.
And the worst thing about this all is that when people don't question an obviously manipulative antagonist (and one that we know has a goal to turn our protagonist into a monster) in a fictional setting and take their words as fact, I can't even imagine what real life implications that might have...
@@chheinrich8486 I would recommend otherwise, I quite liked Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi, but you do you...
It's better just to believe Lumiya was lying.
@@RevanX77 From a Watsonian point of view she was, but this is a Doylian explanation.
@@Red-zh7vq I have it other way around... I see no trouble with Lumiya and Starkiller, but Maul should have stayed dead (with maybe one reappearance as Palpatine's clonning/essence transfer experiment) and Talon should have stayed in the SW: Legacy comics era...
But neither changes my point that fans and Wookiepedia shouldn't have trusted Lumiya's words in LotF, or at least nowhere near to the level they did...
George: "No attachment."
Other writers: "... @#$%."
The question of Jedi Dynasties is kind of a non-starter in the greater context of the universe. The Republic allowed hereditary monarchies to be represented in the Republic, and had countless other forms of heritable power like noble houses and political dynasties right up to the top of the structure, like the Organa's and Valorum's.
And I mean, just look at Yoda. Here we are talking about a few generations of Skywalkers, when we have a single person leading the Jedi as Grandmaster for like 800 years. At least in their case it's successive individuals with different experiences and perspectives.
I'm probably misinterpreting what you're saying, Corey, but it seems like you're implying that Ahsoka existed as a character (or concept) before TCW?
On an unrelated subject, would you make a video or short on the lost Jedi sport of Manuku? There's barely any source for it online.
Edit: Oops, sorry. No idea why this was a reply to you!
So right, its science fantasy, and love it or hate it, nobles/royals are a part of fantasy,
8:28 Jedi Lords once again being forgotten :/
Deliberately so.
The legacy of the Jedi Lords was probably what weighed on Vergere the most; it's the clear historical precedent that she would have been very familiar with.
So i guess vader's family did end up ruling the galaxy....
Let's not forget that Master Ikrit, who was trained by Yoda, lived and worked at Luke's Praxeum for 4 years, and so far as we know, never had any objections to the way Luke was running things. Yes, the fact most of his appearances pre-date the Prequels, but in universe, that's an interesting fact to consider.
Maybe he just really likes the idea of Jedi finally being able to marry
Congratulations for the 50k! 🎉
TBH I am not sure if Jedi dynasties don't also show up in some way without bloodlines. I am not sure where I first saw it mentioned, but many of the members of the Jedi Council during the Prequel era are former padawans of other Jedi Council members:
Tyvokka -> Plo Koon
Yaddle -> Oppo Rancisis
Omo Bouri -> Saesee Tiin
Mace Windu -> Depa Billaba
Yoda -> Ki Adi Mundi
Yoda -> (Dooku -> Qui-Gon-Jin (who could potentially have been on the council if he clashed less)) -> Obi-Wan -> (technically) Anakin
Yoda (according to Wook) -> Kit Fisto
Stass Allie, while not directly her padawan, is related to Adi Gallia
That's most of the Jedi Council members that have established masters as far as I am aware.
Surprised and disappointed these Old Jedi Order folks didn't just leave, make their own splinter cell, and prepare themselves for a civil war scenario post-Yuuzhan Vong War. Would have made a better, if still divisive conflict than what we got on the Denning-verse. Well timed with similar works like Justice League Unlimited and its CADMUS arc, even.
1:17: An Elseworlds doesn't count. Not canon to Legends or the Alt-universe anymore due to obvious reasons.
Congrats on 50K, Corey!
Will admit that Vergere is no Sith in my mind, but I am into the possibility that she's the Traya reincarnation of the Skywalker era. There always has to be a Traya in the galaxy, when they're needed.
6:04: Helps that they don't know everything that really happened during the Clone Wars in-universe. They're still finding out the facts, and I bet they finally knew at least most of the truth during the Legacy era.
6:46: Actually sounds a grand idea. Would even make a fine modus operandi for how exactly occasional Jedi Knights-turned Multiversal operatives work in the field... one can easily imagine a happy dagashi store owner in a Japanese boondocks just being an undercover Kyle Katarn-esque operative keeping tabs on, hmm, magical girls that may become prospective new members for their benevolent organization.
Never understood the hate on the Jedi dynasties though. They're kinda like the bloodline of Elessar/Aragorn the Second in Middle-earth lore for me.
Wish Jacen became the Grandmaster though. Stupid Troy Denning.
The old jedi carried robes and holocrons. The new jedi carried blasters and condems
Substitute condoms with intergalactic special forces, and we're golden.
Not only did Jedi dynasties end up gaining vast political power after the war, the ancient past of Legends shows that that was a common occurrence when Jedi were allowed to marry.
The Shans & Sunriders were extremely politically influential for centuries in the old republic, Jedi Lords held sway over vast chunks of the galaxy during the New Sith Wars, Valenthyne Farfalla was in line to *inherit* the position of Grandmaster & Supreme Chancellor both before agreeing to reforms in the aftermath of the Ruusan campaign, etc. Vergere believing that allowing Jedi to marry, procreate, & form attachments outside the order would lead to their gaining vast political power wasn’t just hypothesizing on her part, it happened every time the Jedi relaxed or abolished their attachment policy.
Then all i can say is fuck the force, if it demands that social sentient beings give up the oppertunity to form attachments, its the worst thing in the star wars galaxy
@@chheinrich8486 The Force across Star Wars seems to be a failed fictionalisation of real Christianity. It's not attachment that leads to Darkness - for God is Love. Jesus did not warn against love, but rather against Lust. Promiscuity, adultery, and - extremely politically incorrectly these days - homosexual acts. (Interestingly, the queer lobby also considers it homophobic to point out that Muslims want to exterminate gay people. It's only evil for Christians to want them to live more fulfilling lives.)
Satene hid her son... while, allowing those old notions to continue to be pushed.
@@KopperNeoman it's a failed fictionilazition because George is Methodist and Buddhist at the same time. I heard current Methodists have some weird heresies
@@chheinrich8486 And that's why Darth Kreia did nothing wrong. The only person who did something wrong was Lucas, who turned into a gross weirdo who thinks sex and marriage are no nos but abducting toddlers to train them into becoming super soldiers for your cult is totally fine.
congrats on 50K! this channel was so small when i started watching!
Congrats on 50k! And great analysis!
I'm still of the opinion that Alana either never assumed the Hapan throne, or something terrible happened to her that led to Ania living as as nobody vagabond. Otherwise we have a situation where a branch of the Skywalker-Solo family tree decided to abandon the rest of it and isolate the Hapes Consortium from the rest of the galaxy.
As well, pointing to the Skywalkers' roles as Grand Masters of the Order can feel just a bit disingenuous. While yes Luke (of course) and, several centuries later, Kol served in that capacity, we only have assumptions that Ben will take that position while Cade, Kol's son, isn't even a proper member of the Order at least for a good chunk of Legacy. Meantime there are multiple other Jedi who take up the role of Grand Master even while Luke is still alive, with K'Kruhk having that position at the end of Legacy, and no confirmation (far as I've seen) that Kol's father was Grand Master at any point. So yes, while the Skywalkers are closely linked with the Order (which is honestly to be expected), there's nothing to indicate they absolutely dominate it or automatically inherit the position of Grand Master.
Congrats to 50k Subs, Corey and thank you for the content
Congratulations on reaching 50K
Congrats on 50K subs Corey!
Solid analysis as usual :) and congrats on the 50k subscribers on that channel!
Congratulations for getting to 50k!
Great video Corey!
I haven’t I haven’t been around like that with your videos and I do apologize but congratulations on hitting 50 K subs
Congrats on 50K!
One thing to note, regardless of source, Palpatine did a pretty good purge on knowledge of the Jedi! So lots of gaps in Luke's new Jedi!
things best left forgotten, perhaps?
Lovely shot on the Praetor BC
Star wars was so much fun back then. I loved those books.
50k let's goooooo🎉🎉🎉
I think, ultimately, nothing is a problem of doctrine, but of the tendencies, as well as the type of education, of individuals (nature and nurture, in other words). You can try to do things this one way or the opposite way, or whichever way you wish, regardless of what you do, there will be a set of people who will eventually take your system in a direction you did not intend for it to go, and prove it to be problematic.
An idea may sound nice in our minds, when we come up with it, and it only applies exclusively to us, but when we ask others to follow it and adhere to it, that idea will inevitably be transformed by the intepretations, hopes, expectations, desires, and the living conditions of those who are following it, as such, that idea is no longer as we envisioned, but more of a guideline. It very much is like a "death of the author", to put it that way.
Similarly, if you got an individual whose goals are self-serving or problematic, they will act in such a way regardless of what system of ideas you try to enforce on them, they will simply adapt it to their ends, make it their own, much like everyone else does. They may figure out how to use the rules to their own benefit, or learn how to walk the line between respecting the rules and doing what was not foreseen when the rules were conceived; there is no way to prepare for such a scenario when coming up with those rules, one can only try to adapt to them as it happens.
There are some systems of ideas that can be better than others, granted, but there is no definitive solution for anything, because the ideas themselves are not the problem -- the individuals are.
Congrats on the 50 thousand, Corey!
I know that the release of the Phantom Menace heavily affected the new Jedi Order series going forward. But in what ways did the release of Attack of the Clones influence the series further?
The Order is always evolving and stuff
The thing is, no one is going to force these kids to be jedi. they might get jedi training, but it will be up to them to continue on being a jedi or taking up another occupation sometime down the line. The old order of jedi didnt give those they kidnap no other alternative.
They didn’t
Yes, vecause cults that indoctrinate you from before you could talk, and teach strict dogma, and a firm detachment from all outside influence are surely benevolent, and in no way manipulative to discourage desertion.
Always hated vergere. She saw Luke as a heretic, yet ended up becoming a sith in the end lol.
Denning-verse retcons don't count, sir/ma'am.
@@michaelandreipalon359 good thing inplan to avoid troy dennings work🤣
@@chheinrich8486 Well, I can at least still recommend Tatooine Ghost and Star by Star. Those are way before he went overboard.
@@michaelandreipalon359 tatooine ghost does sound cool
'L-l-love???!!?!'
Certainly some of the things that Luke allowed in his new Jedi order might have seen as reckless and dangerous to a member of the old order. However they were a direct response to outdated doctrine that destroyed the old order and replacing it with something better.
Basically seeing a return to the era of the Jedi lords of the new Sith wars in respect of Skywalker and associated family dynasties ruling over the order and force string monarchies as well as politically active in galactic politics that would be key to defeating Darth Krayt one Sith a century later.
If you think about it, Cal Kestis fits the criteria of Luke's order perfectly
Don’t see how the jedi attachments leads to corruption, especially since Jedi are enlighten individuals. Also the old order fell by the will of the force in order to bring balance.
the, perhaps, they were not.
Damn I’m here already lol
Viewers: man RUclips recs is lame
Star Wars Content: *Hello There!!!!*
Viewers: GENERAL KENOBI!!!
As far as cole is concerned I dont think that was inherited but elected plus the boost of th fam rep. Otherwise his brother would have taken over
Well it's also explained that Calista wasn't a part of the regular Jedi order, so she kinda gets a pass.
And then it turns out he was right 😂
Like most of these problems all came from the horrible denningverse so if we stop after NJO it’s all good
The dynastic storytelling of the post-Endor period of Legends has indeed always rubbed me the wrong way. And it’s very interesting to see Canon Luke’s order following more closely to the prequels as a result of authors/writers knowing what actually happened then
Im still wondering if i should plan to read any legends novels set after the Yuuzhan vong war,
Pity Legacy of the force and Star Wars legacy 1 & 2 are pretty good and well worth it.
@@JediAcolyte94 ok I rethink it, by the way, I take a light side force sensitive dynasty over a Sith controlled galaxy anyday, also lighten up vergere, the Star Wars galaxy still has it pretty light, THEY COULD LIVE IN 40K AFTERALL🤣🤣
@@chheinrich8486 the retcons don't even really get noticed to be honest...
Feel free to skip from the NJO to the Legacy comics though. Just try to take liberties on a certain Darth Krayt reminiscing scene about Vergere and Caedus on the latter thoughts.
The swarm wars are kind of boring but but the book series about darth caedus pretty good
Congrats on the 50k, well deserved.