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@@calitaliarepublic6753 you are a disgusting person to be honest, and completely failed to address the fact that all TERF points boil down to picking whatever excludes trans people, regardless of whether it targets other women or makes even a tiny amount of sense. TERFs are sexist, innately; they seek to reduce women to a single biological property that not all women, or even cis women, could ever fit into. Forcing women into a tiny box is sexist.
As a cis woman with neither cervix nor uterus I’m very happy to no longer be on the receiving end of misogyny since my hysterectomy.oh, wait, that didn’t happen. And my trans and enby friends definitely don’t suffer misogyny because people always check chromosomes before discriminating against them.
@@AbandonedVoid Not really. Most intersex people has a predominant sex and just one of their sexual organ works. It's very, very rare the people who has both functioning completely right. Intersex people really vary a lot in an spectrum. Also chromossomes don't define only your sex, but also defines other caracteristics like how much you produce of each hormone. We should never take the exception and turn it intoo the ruel, that's not how science works. Just imagine, if you drop a ball into a ambient projected to be 0 gravity, can we say that gravity doesn't exist (Or that all of the planet earth is 0 gravity) because in this particular place it has 0 gravity? No, because it's an exception to the rule. The same works for anything in science, you can't say that chromossomes doesn't matter because less than 1% of total population "born with two sexes". That's anti scientific.
The point is biological males don't *have* to go through life suffering misogyny. They have an 'out' if they wish to take it. It's like that white woman who pretended to be black. What made her complaints of racism so egregious is that at any point she could have opted out. All females loose the capacity to reproduce at some point, indeed are born without it, so yours is a silly point.
@@AbandonedVoid intersex is a biological abnormality. Just like having 6 toes instead of 5.. Humans have 5 toes overall with the low percentage of people being born with six or less. Intersex is not a good agruement to prove that sex isn't binary.
As a Native person here in America, in the middle of all this discourse, it had been very confusing to navigate my gender. I think me and my family live under a multicultural lense, one which is our tribe's and the other which is the western American culture. And in terms of gender they readily conflict. I think especially when you said that Terfs don't actually care what your bio sex is, but what your assigned gender is, it immediately made me think of colonialism and cultural supremacy. You see there's a core practice of receiving your name that almost every culture has, and what's interesting is that in the West a baby shall receive it's name at birth and that will in general be it's name for life. I found that in my tribe and a few others children will be given a pet name until the age that this child develops their personality, then they will be given their true name. And there are also many religious ties to the process of adolescence and self discovery. While this is not gender, I think the process is very similar to how us trans people deal with oppression in the west and how we go through self discovery. And for me I don't like to discuss my gender much because the regular American wouldn't understand at all. In my tribe there are four genders, which are a man with a masculine spirit, a woman with a feminine spirit, a man with a feminine spirit, and a woman with a masculine spirit. And for me I identify most with being a man with a feminine spirit, but see this wouldn't make sense to a westerner because my assigned gender was female, I think at first glance a transphobe/terf would assume this gender to be akin to a trans woman, but it is not the same thing. With this, the way gender roles are understood in my tribe get further strayed away from the western mindset, like there are certain roles and places of labor designated to people with a feminine spirit, like the rice fields and the moon because they are both tied to feminity, and I've seen many academic articles written by observers say that these are "women's spaces" but that isn't really the case.
Thank you for sharing. The simple fact that your tribe has a very different way of seeing gender is one of those things the TERFs can't abide by. Gender, being a social construct, can be socially constructed differently in different societies. As a transgender woman studying sociology your tribe's concept of gender sounds fascinating.
@@SherriGlebus How does one "observe" chromosomes, genes, gametes, hormones, and internal genitalia in the moments between birth and the proclamation of "its a boy" or "its a girl"? They don't wait for all that testing; more accurately those things are almost never tested. Biological sex is 2 chromosomes in 8 viable combinations, 27 genes (and counting), a handful of hormones, internal and external genitals, and secondary sex characteristics. Sex isn't binary, it's bimodal. They assign sex based on one visible trait. The proportion of people who are intersex is largely unknown precisely because we do not test for it. People who know they are intersex find out either because the doctor was unable to easily assign their sex, based on indeterminate genitalia, or while investigating some other health concern. Some studies indicate the rate of undiagnosed intersex traits could be many times higher than currently thought.
This is very interesting. I would like to learn more about it. I didn't know the idea of giving babies a name could be a weird thing, but it makes sense.
When you mentioned the catholics protesting gender as a whole, I was like “hell yeah, fuck gender roles!” and then you explained what they ACTUALLY meant and I quickly became disappointed
As an intersex trans woman I never produced "male" gametes, and I never had a Y chromosome... But I was certainly assigned male at birth, much to my chagrin.
@@dogisgreat1 sex is a biological reality only in as much as humans experience sexual development. Sex confirmation when a person is born is simply the observation of if your newly birthed infant genitalia look appropriate at a glance, and the recording of that glance is a bureaucratic formality. People with a 46XX karyotype can be born with a penis and descended gonads(testes) that produce testosterone but not gametes. A person with a 46XY karyotype but an unexpressed SRY gene (swyers) will have a vagina and uterus and can carry a pregnancy. There are also many other karyotypes than just XY and XX not to mention mosaics and chimaera and genes of sexual development, and hormones. Medically speaking intersex people are extremely common. Sex as it is generally understood is as much a social construct as gender. It is a social construct that intersex people have been routinely abused to force us to align with a perisex binary that simply doesn't exist.
It's so interesting to hear phrases like "gender and sex are different" are now old to some people. Where I come from, people are still wrapping their heads around the idea that biological sex and sexuality are different 🙄
As a non-binary person, I'm just going to say that gender definitely matters. Without other people having it, I never would've figured out that I don't really experience it. The way it gets pushed on you every day and from every direction is total crap, though.
@Jaycee I figured I was on point. Lily was countering the TERFs on whether or not gender is real and matters, and I agree that it is, even though it is very much a construct. That's what I said. The last bit was a bit of venting on the subject because it happens all the time, and I hadn't seen anyone else saying they were non-binary in the "top" comments. It kind of followed the "themming" joke that was in the video and that Lily apologized for in the same video. I responded (and vented) to the video. I notice you're insinuating that this has nothing to do with the video or maybe that my observation about both of us using our free speech had nothing to do with how criticism is part of free speech while trying to skirt around how passive-aggressive you sounded in the moment. This just seems to be the way you are, though. Bye.
@Sweet Tea Got a notification of a reply asking about experience, but I can't find the reply. Had to reread my comment. Experiencing gender has been described to me as knowing you're a man or woman or fluid or something else, even if it's in spite of what others tell you you are. I've never had that kind of internal gender knowledge. I used to assume in high school that gender was something others put on you. Hearing other people's experiences with gender from within (and how it clashed with society) helped me figure out what my gender wasn't...and was. Hope that helps.
Made me think about saying such things are a societal construct, in every single way I'd say its more of a comparison as well is nationality. You wont ever change your place of birth, but you can change your nationality
@@TheAllomar 60? the number you people usually peddle is 40. and what do you think it is that causes trans people to kill themselves? could one contributing factor be,., oh, idk, a society that tells them they are abnormal freaks? you're obviously a ben shapiro watching troll so i'll leave it at that bye
Worth to point out that although yes, we can't change chromosomes (yet?), there ARE people with XY chromosomes who are born AFAB and develop as women, and vice versa. This is because most of our sex-different features hinge on a single gene called the SRY gene, which is supposed to be in the Y chromosome, but sometimes ends up in the X during meiosis. For this reason these people also have funky gametes making them hard to get placed in a binary worldview of sex. And even THEN, some people are born resistant to their sex hormones, making them not develop according to their chromosomes. So even in a deeply scientific level, sex is also not binary.
There's a syndrome where XY people are born resistant to testosterone, are assigned female at birth, and then their genitals develop (read: TAKE A HARD TURN) during puberty. They are XY, they have the biological traits of a male with NO medical intervention, they were simply assigned female at birth by the same people who would now assign them male. IT'S ALL FAKE.
Yes. Literally Caster Semenya, and another African afab athlete whose name I don't remember who got banned last month. It's such a Euro-imperialistic idea that things has to be divided like / that, and it only results in the people who belongs under umbrella term "women" having their cakes taken away, when NON of such scrutiny or harassment goes to male athletes for whom being physically better is just a thing they do. Also idk, doesn't cis euro athletes get better environment for athletic training or something? Do they even count that in when mentioning how chromosomes or genetics decide the result? I doubt it.
Fair point but what you've just highlighted there is the exception to the standard. Everything has exceptions and sex is no different. However, that's what they are. Exceptions. The standard is male and female. Always has been. Kinda has to be otherwise the human race would die out. So to cut a long story short, the Queer community as they call themselves are exceptions to the standard and there's nothing wrong with that. I myself am an exception since I was born disabled but it doesn't make me any less human than someone who isn't. The same applies to the Queer community. Just because they are exceptions doesn't mean they're any less human.
Those people make up about 0.02% of the population. That's far less likely than, say, polydactylism. So, unless you want to start teaching that humans generally have anywhere from 8 to 12 fingers, you should stop teaching that sex is a spectrum. Bringing up intersex in the first place is dodging the main point of the discussion. It's like saying that abortion is okay in the case of rape, so therefore abortion is okay in all cases. Sure, someone who is intersex could be allowed to identify with a sex different from the one assigned at birth. That doesn't make it okay for someone who by all measures is biologically female to identify as a male.
@@xa1551 Where do you get the "0.02%" number from? When I researched where you may have gotten this, I found that 0.02% of people born get "corrective" genit*l surgery, but it's important to point out that there are people who are intersex who do did not have corrective surgery when they were born. As I explained above, many intersex people look perfectly normal and don't find out that they're intersex until decades after they're born, sometimes never at all. A study as far back as 2000 titled "How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis" by Melanie Blackless (from the Department of Molecular and Cell Biology and Biochemistry in Brown University) et al estimates the incidence of intersex people may be as high as 2%. That makes intersex people as common as redheaded or green eyed people. So, unless you consider redheads and people with green eyes unnatural as well, I don't see why intersex people are any different. Because yes, I *would* teach that humans generally come in the eye colors of brown, blue, gray, or green, on a spectrum; hair colors of brown, blonde, gray, or red, on a spectrum; and sex of male or female, also on a spectrum. If you care to learn more about the subject and how high the incidence of nonbinary sex and gender is among humans (and other animals too), I suggest you watch a video called "Sex and Sensibility" on youtube by Forrest Valkai (a biologist, unlike me and, if I had to guess, unlike you too).
It irks me to no end when people think that saying something is a "social construct" means its not real. We point out that things are constructed in the same way we see a building as constructed, not to say its not there, but rather that it wasn't always, and that it can be destroyed.
an example: government is constructed by people, but if you going around claiming "France/USA/Ghana isn't real!" you are in for some surprises in this world
Growing up in the 1950's and 1960's I may not have known the words to describe myself -- or the far worse words to describe my Dad when at 5 years of age my Dad Went into a Rage of Severely Verbally Degrading me for being a girl. I wish that I would have been brave enough to have told my dad, "So what, I already know I am a girl and having that horrible thing my birth doctor looked at when he misgendered me does NOT define who I am." I grew up forbidden to do things female. Yet my parents would have gotten exactly the same results if they would have tried to verbally forbid the raging waters from flowing over Niagara Falls. It was seriously that degree of impossible for me to stop being a girl. I have never needed to learn how to be a woman because I have always been authentically female, with a female personality, feelings, and emotions - merely just myself - who I am and have been all of my life. I cannot even begin to share with you how many times all throughout my life that I have called my Mother in tears over the least little things that for me felt like the end of the world. By the time I finally came out to my family -- my 5th sister's first comment to me was, "Hmm, OK, now it all makes sense." We have since become Best Friends and are both here for each other no matter what time of the day or night either of us may just need someone with whom to talk. ❤
I am so sad so many within our society feel ostracized for just being who they are. If I were beside you I would ask if I could give you a hug. You are perfectly wonderful *just the way you are.*
If I am reading this correctly, you are a man, and the doctor who delivered you saw your penis and testicles and said "this is a boy," but according to the metrics of The Big 5 Personality Assessment, you fit in the 10% of men whose scores look like most women's scores (higher in Agreeableness and higher in Neuroticism,) with stereotypically female interests, and you have never quite felt like you "fit in." Is this correct?
Yeah rock on @@DrAbadie. Nice one haha, calling her white. You showed her. Don't wanna mess with you, you'll drive me into the ground with your arguments. Might call me white too. Also I thought people here are pussies that delete their comments, but someone else is obviously doing the deleting. Keep the echo chamber intact
@@_Sakidora_ No, they're really not. Misogyny stems from others perceiving you as a woman, and therefore lesser. There are intersex people who have usual female anatomy, including a vagina and breasts. Yet they possess XY chromosomes. It stems from androgen insensitivity, so the body never masculinizes since it can't respond to testosterone and other androgens in the typical way. So instead, the body responds to its estrogens and develops a female appearance instead. These people more often than not live as women, some may not even realize they have a different chromosomal mosaic until they investigate. Yet their chromosomes are what typically produce a male. But they developed female anatomy naturally, with no intervention other than a disordered response to hormones in their own body. Are these not women, who experience misogyny?
I am terrified by how much we are on the same wavelength. I was ranting to a friend the other day about how money is a social construct but you still need it to buy things and traffic laws too! Also, you have no right to be both this funny and this good. Leave some amazing for the rest of us!
@@MEOWMIX3DS Can you explain whether gender identity (or sex identity) is based on biology or on the gender/sex one believes oneself to be. Because it seems like the latter is the only criterion regarding how we determine who is a woman and who is a man (or non-binary), according to the current transgender consensus. So, if gender/sex are not based on biology, why is it even relevant talking about college or professional level science vs 5th grad biology--isn't biology irrelevant WRT to gender/sex identity?
@@emileconstance5851 it's a fake appeal to authority. And a bad one at that. Wr have known for a pretty decent time by now that human sex is bimodal, with many conditions in an intersex spectrum.
Well, some people have such essentialist views of labels they just glue them together and hold on to the lump for dear life. To some people not being what the world wants them to be seems like a complete loss of self rather than a liberation, what can be said to change that?
We don't complain of the "person" part (that shows u know a damn besides what these tras activists want to brainwash u to)... but to reduce us to "birthing individuals" or vagina holders or whatever shit is the problem, until men r not called eyaculators ull never sympathize with us bc that makes us feel as "the other ones", we face misogyny for being a woman which is a biological fact, for our sex not our gender so males defining what a woman is & to reduce us to "the other ones" bc it marginalizes a bunch of males (lmao)
Hi Lily. I don’t know if you’ll read this but it’s worth a shot. A few years ago we went to school with one another and we used to share the same spaces. Around this time I had fallen in with the Alt Right and so saying reactionary things about gender and LGBTQ+ issues (both online and in person) was normal to me. Over the years I have changed my views on these subjects and I can almost wholly credit watching video essayists like you. You are very composed and articulate (and hilarious), which makes learning about these topics really accessible and entertaining. I want to apologize for any harmful things I’ve said and thank you for the great work you do. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
I'm nonbinary and my gender and my sex are different, period. My existence shouldn't be seen as offensive... too radical, or not radical enough... or political. I'm not any of those things. I'm just nonbinary and trying to live my life. It sucks feeling disowned by cis-het society and queer society all at once.
There is no such thing as non binary. Dressing feminine and masculine or neutral doesn’t make your gender neutral. If you think so then you're literally supporting the fact that a guy can’t be feminine or else his gender is female and vice versa for females.
You are gender non conforming. Great, we should celebrate that. We've always had you so evolution obviously ensure you stuck around. However....ready for this? You are STILL male or female. Gender is a literary term co-opted by a paedophile named John Money. Please read up on it. You cannot perform a sex or gender and you cannot wear a sex or gender you just ARE a sex. You brain is part of your body and all you cells work together and are sexed (except blood cells), so unless you believe in mind/body dualism which has been debunked since the Enlightenment, you cannot be two things at once. In fact everyone is non binary because nobody "feels" they are a certain sex or even knows it....they just are.
yep, no one's identity needs to be 'radical' or 'not radical' it just needs to be yours. it's weird/wrong when a community that is supposed to be for the different (queer) people try to gatekeep, doesn't make any sense.
As someone comfortable as a cis man, I think it's easy to fall into a trap of mentally equating topics like these as some sort of attack. I guess it brings up the idea of _me_ having to act in a way that makes me uncomfortably, or doesn't line up with how I see myself. A bit ironic, isn't it? I bring this up because early in the video you make it clear that it's all about just being who you are, in a way that really came through to me. I think a lot of men don't really get that sort of acceptance these days. Maybe that's the key to getting people on the same page about all this? Also, your voice is super relaxing! I don't throw that out often, either.
i also love commenting to engage with videos completely apropos of nothing; i just love engagement, and any algorithmic metrics tracking engagement should note: i'm engaged with this
That was an ACTUAL galaxy brain take, you were not kidding! I'm very affected by transphobia in general, as I feel I live in a very cis-centric world that doesn't recognize me as me, and this and your "what is a woman?" video just pulled out all the thorns of the snappy and concise arguments that shouldn't bother me but often do because of their exclusionary and validating intent. Thank you so, so much. I have no idea how you're so good at this.
Your reminder that the book was born out of Janice Raymond getting *Angry* after learning that there was a trans lady, Sandy Stone, working at the local lesbian radio station. There is an episode of the podcast Hi-Phi Nation called "For Women Only", which features interviews from both of them on what was happening in queer circles back in the 70s. The podcast itself can often fall into what-about-isms, but these interviews are pretty insightful by themselves, I think.
@@blacktigerpaw1 in any way. You are probably not. Why now using insulting vocabulary of the rightwing cismale transphobes, also in other comments? Standard TERF language no more enough? TERF bot update?
i love the idea that i, as a transmasc non-binary person, am escaping sexism by transitioning. Ya totally Susan, being trans has definitely made my experience of gender easier to navigate /s
yeah susan, being a transmasc definitely keeps me free from oppression and definitely does not set me up for harm from sexist misogynistic transphobic nuts /s
@@drmobius2343 It's amazing, you're so incapable of comprehending that a trans person can also be GNC, that the moment he says he's feminine, you have to jump to assuming he's a trans woman, even though he literally said he's a trans man.
I feel that there is a difference between gender and gender roles? gender roles are behaviours that people around us try to teach us consciously or unconsciously based on their perception of our physical sex. And gender is the prioprioconception of ones own gender identity. An then there is gender performance...the gender role we choose to play, our conscious behaviors. I think making this distinction helps the discourse.
Are there any "toxic" gender roles? And if yes, who can rightly judge someone for inhabiting said toxic gender roles without denying those people their true gender identity?
@@lancewalker2595 Toxic gender roles things like telling women that mothers instinctively know how to raise a child and if they need help or get post-partum depression they are "defective". Toxic gender roles are things like telling men that they can only show anger and control, with no room for uncertainty or sadness or insecurity or else they're seen as "less than real men" and targetted with misogynistic insults and insinuations. Toxic gender roles are the idea that women are harmless and can't be predators so people excuse it when it's a female teacher having sex with male students. So yes, there are toxic gender roles, and they're toxic because they hurt everyone, INCLUDING THE PEOPLE PERFORMING THEM.
@@lancewalker2595 i personally believe that gender roles become toxic once they have to be the only thing that dictate how you should live, act and feel about yourself. for example if i, a cis woman, started wanting to act solely on what i think a feminine woman is, never tried to do anything that doesn’t fit that criteria even if i’m dying to do it, and it affects my self esteem and mental health whenever i fail to conform to it, then it becomes extremely toxic. that’s what toxic gender roles are, they can be harmful to oneself if they have to be the only way you value yourself as a human being, but we can’t prevent people from wanting to be that even if they end up worse than what they used to be. it is a problem but we can’t do anything as long as they’re only hurting themselves, which is kinda okay in this society somehow and we shouldn’t judge no matter how self destructive it can be HOWEVER, if all women suddenly started policing each other to act the way feminine women should act then not only does it because an even huge problem, it becomes much lire dangerous and critical to dismantle such behavior….but wait that already exists within many cultures and it creates a lot of self esteem problems, body image issues, shame, mental health issues and so on not only that, but the manosphere suddenly started using this as a way to « regain » their worth as men, while at the same time destroying each other’s notions of what a man is the second a man « doesn’t act like one », add to that the constant force fed misogyny…that’s what toxic masculinity is. men talking about suicide rates within the male population while at the same time bashing and bullying other men who do not conform to their idealistic view of what men are, who they should be and how they should act. this is toxic masculinity. as long as one makes himself abide by it, before inevitably dying from the pressure, it shouldn’t matter, but since many men are trying to force others into this same toxic mindset, it becomes an international problem toxic gender roles have always been taken to an extreme, historically, and they always had more or less impact on the people’s private lives and self esteem, but them coming back today is an unacceptable phenomenon, one that should be taken more seriously imo before more people end their own miserable lives this doesn’t only affect cisgender people, it’s far from being a cisgender only problem, it’s something that feeds on people’s insecurities and lack of comfort within their own skin, that they go out of their way seeking validation by following a strict set of rules and integrating like minded communities…kinda like how ppl with EDs who deny treatment will try to live through their disorder and seek validation from ppl suffering of the same illness
As someone with a very uncomfortable and complex relationship to gender, I would love for it to just... not exist. However, an alternative where binary sex is then the end-all, be-all is even more hellish.
Tbh I'd love to see a world with no bearing given to biological sex or gender. With only one third-person pronoun (or system of third-person syntax), no gendered clothing, etc. But I understand that would require a large population to both agree with my vision and voluntarily give up their previous cultures, so it probably wouldn't work.
@@charliekahn4205 toki pona is a constructed language that has basically no gender (and it's only third person pronoun is "ona" which could be he/she/they/it depending on context) so we should all like go learn that and go create a genderless utopia in bir tawil or some shit lmao toki pona li toki tan jan. ona li jo ala e unpa kulupu (li jo e nimi ijo wan: "ona") mi wile eni mi ale li kama sona e toki pona li pali e ma pona lon ma Pi Tawi anu ijo ante
my agender heaven: the gendered activities/adornments we enjoy still exist but they're free from gender which no longer exists, and sex is considered to have no more bearing on your essential self than your hair color or height. I feel like I could've saved the bundles I spent on my transition if I had been born into that universe but here we are, lol...
@@kimmmimemwest1895 You didn't remotely engage with the content of this video... Gender is often made congruent to sex, but in realizing better utlility, has been considered as something all its own. Historically, gender and gender expression are also very different across cultures. It's just an expression of the self...nothing to be afraid of.
10:00 I'm slightly confused by the term "chestfeeding" because isn't "breast" already gender-neutral? Hell, the word breast doesn't even have to mean boob (think "robin redbreast").
I remember having a conversation with a terf once about a trans girl who wanted to play on the girls team. She insisted that the girl would have an unfair advantage over "real girls", to which I pointed out that she hadn't even ever been through male puberty, the ONLY THING that could've given her said advantage. And what was her response? She didn't respond, she completely ignored my point, repeatedly, as she continued to reiterate that "He's a BOY! And everyone knows the boys are stronger than girls, it's just common sense". That conversation taught me a lot about how terfs perceive biological sex. It's not about any observable reality to them, it's just about these broad stereotypes about what a "biological male" is like, and what a "biological female" is like. That's why it makes complete sense to me that 'The Transexual Empire' uses those six criteria, because in the author's mind, all AMAB people fit all of the male criteria, and all AFAB people fit all of the female criteria, just like how all trans girls supposedly have an advantage over cis girls even without male puberty.
@@NanoNutrino Those advantages go away after some time on HRT, so it's not a valid reason to exclude any trans woman who's physically transitioned. I'm just saying, if you wanted to even begin arguing that she had an advantage, you'd need to connect that to her having gone through male puberty somehow, which you can't, because she never did. Idk what the other commenters are talking about though. I've tried googling this, and nothing I've come across has even hinted at what they're suggesting. Everything I've seen has reiterated that reproductive organs are the only primary sex characteristics.
@@username.not.known2473 Laurel Hubbard didn't do so well at the Olympics so not exactly a great example if you're trying to prove trans women have some kind of inherent advantage
And then you have me, who has always felt inherently connected to boyhood and manhood (despite boys constantly rejecting my presence because IDK, cooties or girls don't like games or something) even when I had NO IDEA there were trans people, much less that there was a WORD for them, and who always identified with male character, never saw myself in female characters, and clumsily used chest-binding as a teen because that made me feel like my body fit me more like that long before I even realized that's dysphoria and not just me thinking it's gross to be objectified because of chest lumps. There's just something in me that *knows* I'm a man and *tells* other dudes I'm a man. (The weirdest validation of my gender ever has happened when a straight guy found my AFAB body attractive when I was closeted, but he complained to me that my personality and way of talking were just like talking to one of the bros and that was a massive turn-off.)
"Themming it up" is such a good phrase, and given that we have DID *and* mostly use they/them for individual ones of us, we're fractally themming it up
When I've asked TERFs if they think intersex people should be assigned a gender identity that fits within a traditional 'male' or 'female' binary at birth, they usually say yes with all the confidence in the world. But when I hit them with the complexities of actual intersex conditions (like androgen insensitivity where a person is genetically male but develops in the womb and past puberty with outward female sex characteristics), I love watching as their confidence is crushed to smithereens. And then I show them the multitude of studies that show that the structural and functional aspects of trans brains resembles much more closely that of the gender that they identify as rather than the gender they were assigned at birth... oh do they get nervous...
well then show us the multitude of studies that show that the structural and functional aspects of trans brains resembles much more closely that of the gender that they identify as rather than the gender they were assigned at birth see how nervous anyone gets, everyone is aware ofthese supposed " multitude" of studies and they are debunked
Also woof, assigning intersex people a gender strictly at birth has had devastating effects for some intersex people, and I don't think enough TERFs realize how big the issue of IGM and related intersex topics really are.
@@mochatokah yeah, they do so by hyper focusing on all the metrics that are NOT implicated in gender identity, like grey and white matter densities, while completely ignoring the one organelle that is consistently shown to have taken on a cross-sex phenotype in trans people - the BSTc Of all the hundreds of studies I've seen arguing against trans people, a small handful have approached the topic through neurology. Of those, I have not yet seen one attempt to debunk the findings relating to the BSTc
I’ve been moving towards my real gender since early this year(thanks to people like Kat Blaque and SamanthaLux). I hope people are accepting of you and your discovery. What are your pronouns btw?
I have credentials in the field of genetics and I'm a trans woman with XX chromosomes, male gametes, and breasts (no external hormone treatment administered). I was curious what your take on biological sex would be because a lot of people (trans or otherwise) try to talk about it based on what they read on wikipedia or maybe through light reading and don't get it scientifically accurate. BUT you successfully avoided all of that and I commend you for the ultimately relevant take!
@@suigeneris2663 - Exceptions don't necessarily "invalidate or otherwise change the rules". You make exceptions for exceptions because the premises the rules are based on aren't infallable and work very poorly as an umbrella.
@@Junosensei Though when you find a SIGNIFICANT amount of exceptions that kind of tells you that the rules are not properly defined and require a new hypothesis that accounts for those divergences (or explains them in a way that reinforces the rules).
So your 'Intersex'. You are part of 1% , of the human population. 99% of the population are normal Males or Females. Exceptions do not change the rule. We are a dimorphic species just like cats and dogs.
@@aprilrae6551 - The intersex population is around 0.5%-1.7% of the world, meaning 40 million to 150 million people, which is about how many humans existed on the _entire planet_ when the U.S. as a country was first established. There are enough of us to dominate _an entire Earth-sized planet,_ but we're still too small a group to warrant consideration?
gender is fucking weird. im definitely not a man, but woman sometimes doesnt feel right either. but i dont think i have enough trouble with being seen as one, as to be nonbinary. and then also in my language, gender-neutral pronouns etc dont exist. every noun that describes a person is gendered basically. you cant just say "doctor" for example, you can only say "male doctor" or "female doctor", and it pisses me off. i wish it could be possible to literally just be a person without a gender lol. just me, no gender, thank you.
To me the gender component of language is just a custom to concede to at worst or to validate oneself with at best. Moreover it is there to imo lend physical description. Men and women differ variously but solidly, and so it at least gives you a context clue of how the person appears or comes to be. But it can get excessive. I mean, there was a whole debate last year in France about whether COVID is masculine or feminine. It’s nonsensical and arbitrary. One could argue there could be a poetry to it, grammatical gender, but that just isn’t always so. As for a human like you, from what I can tell, you are female, but that needn’t color everything about you. But I do sometimes have mixed feelings about obscuring the physical appearance & general presence of, say, a nonbinary friend of mine by saying they; sometimes I’ll say AFAB nonbinary or AMAB nonbinary. But it could cause fire. So I have to negotiate. Gender in its societal sense is an imposition on people I’ll admit. It does grant color to how we get to know people though. But there should be space to live without it. And after all, “they” can also color someone in one’s mind, as androgynous, or as a certain type of person. So there’s definitely room for it.
@@jannecapelle_art Sorry. I’d just woken up when I wrote that and my words tend to sound clinical when I’m not trying to sound casual. Especially since I was coming out of a discussion about “teleological sex”. I was basically saying that gender has its place and can be useful but can also be hurtful. Happy Holidays.
@@jannecapelle_art It’s interesting though, if you try to be too precise with language you become cold and actually a bit inscrutable. It’s a balancing act.
hell yes i am themming it up all the time. on a more serious note, specifically i am always in awe & wonder @ trans women who embrace & embody so fully an identity that always fit me poorly. i loved being a little girl and i am so glad that i get to kind of pass on the identity to people who love being a woman more than i ever could.
I kind of love that notion of gender being like pokemon cards or smth, trading one you don't like for a different one. It feels weirdly wholesome. Another silly thing it makes me think of is like...there being conservation of gender as a physical law of nature -- that gender can be neither created nor destroyed, only change its form.
I feel the same way! I couldn't find the words for it for a long time, but you really hit the proverbial nail on the head! I loved being a little kid, I loved being treated the way I was, and it was only as I got older that the way I was still being treated began to grow uncomfortable, as I became aware of the concept of social gender, and how I was percieved. I sometimes question if I would feel the same way about my gender as I do in this realm if I'd been born Assigned Male At Birth, or in a world without social gender expectations, but that's purely philosophical pondering, and there's nothing I can do to explore those avenues to their fullest extent.
Wow, you think heavy make-uo and fake tits make them more of a woman than a real woman? These men cause serious harm to real women, obviously. Their act is NOT what a real woman is. You area woman regardless.of make-up,.size, clothes. You are a woman without hormone blockers and surgeries. You are capable of things NONE of the transwomen/transvestites will ever be capable of. So sad ao many girls feel uncomfortqble because of some men put on a show because of a dysphoria.
Often when you point out people who don't produce gametes anymore, or never did, they will start talking in this vague teleological way about what gametes your body was "designed" to produce. They are literally promoting an Aristotlean view of biology and think they are the peak of science. It's maddening
*I can't decide to stop being gendered, the world wouldn't listen.* this is literally my experience with gender. I'm agender, a gender label to express my lack of gender, and while the agender experience varies, for me, it means I really identify with any pronouns or even a name. If I could, I would have either of those things, but modern society doesn't allow that, even though this is literally what the terfs want lmao. Even some trans people, like my sibling, don't accept this or think it's valid.
That's probably because how you see yourself doesn't change any part of objective reality for anyone else. Your gender identity is for you, and it shouldn't matter if everyone else is buying it or not.
Amazing video - thank you. Can I add that the ability to get pregnant *can* affect people in job interviews, if the interviewer is made aware of someone's bodily capacities, they may be discriminate against the person capable of becoming pregnant and not give them the job.
The idea that a woman is only a temp worker who will inevitably marry a man, become pregnant, and fall out of the workforce, and is therefore a risky hire is still alarmingly common
To those that don't think gender is real and just want to focus on sex: Okay, if you think sex is all biological with no social implications, then stop the harassment, violence and bullying of those who don't fit gender roles. Allow people to wear what they want and change their bodies to what makes them feel more comfortable. Allow people to apply for the careers they want and be attracted to any other consenting adult. If we can't win you over on the pronouns thing, at least don't be a discriminatory bully.
A battle of "comforts". They are uncomfortable, that's why they bully. You make them uncomfortable and don't care about that, so they will make you uncomfortable and not care about you. How are people confused by this. Society doesn't just change because you want it to or even know it should. You have to convince it it wants to change itself to make real changes, which is how you win any debate or engage in meaningful conversation, so like is this a social intelligence problem?
@@LadyVandMrT It is tiring having your very existence politicized and discriminated against is all. I'm not I'm not implying that people aren't out there making good arguments for trans rights. There are a lot of debates and things are changing. Are you trying to say that people who believe in trans and gender non conforming rights have bad arguments or something? Because the science is on our side and we have good arguments, but that doesn't mean every single trans person wants to be the one to engage in a debate or is a scholar about who they are. They just want to exist. But there are professionals out there discussing the issue and bringing awareness. Anyway, I don't see your point.
To give you an analogy, do you expect every black person to fully understand racism and discrimination and be prepared to battle for their own existence every single day? No, that's wrong. Minorities may have to do that at times, but they shouldn't have to, it's not the kind of society I want to live in. That's why we have to stand up and protect them. Be the change you want to see in the world. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Hello! I really appreciate you saying chromosomes and gametes don't matter because they're invisible, as opposed to what people often say "because intersex people". I am intersex and it often bothers me when trans people use intersex people to dunk on terfs. The idea that they don't matter because they're invisible is much better, it applies to everyone, regardless of whether they're intersex or not. Thank you for not using intersex at all in this argument!
"I read one sentence of Gender Trouble and enter a fugue state" I lost it at this. I keep reading the damned thing though because the 5% I do understand makes a lot of sense lmao
"Eventually you can’t help but figure out that, while gender is a construct, so is a traffic light, and if you ignore either of them, you get hit by cars. Which, also, are constructs." from Nevada, by Imogen Binnie
@@hyawill8944 no there's no difference between "green light means you may go" and "planet is an astronomical body orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, is not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and - according to the International Astronomical Union but not all planetary scientists - has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals."
@@ambientjohnny i could not ignore that you're being kind of a snarky jerk right now and insult you, but that would be considered "rude". Same principle. Yeah, we know we weren't assigned the right sex and most of us developed the wrong secondary sex characteristics n whatnot. Lots of us work on fixing it, we are uncomfortable with it, it's a sore subject. We don't like you saying that our biology doesn't match our genders because it's a rude thing to say, we already know and that's why a lot of us transition. it's not a gotcha moment, you're just being intentionally hurtful. Plus, spreading that idea infringes on our ability to get healthcare and increases discrimination, so it's beyond rude and actively harmful at that point
@@ambientjohnny Yeah, its assigned based on observations. Observations that were made within reason at the time but do not predict the future and thus no longer apply. They said I was one thing, They did their best, but the thing they told me I was, what they assigned me, was wrong. Also, brains are physical, right? Similarities in brain anatomy have been found between trans people and the gender they identify with. And hormones are physical, right? Hormones change things in your body, your biology, and that can reduce dysphoria. Being trans is also a physical condition. I'm legitimately curious, why are you a jerk on the internet but you wouldn't be in real life? That good ol' anonymity that allows you to exit the realm of politeness? Well if this is what you say when you don't have to be nice, I don't think I'd much care to be in your presence in real life at all. I'd rather not try to befriend people who disagree with my existence, thanks. But, regardless of how snarky and rude you are about it, I would still like to discuss this here, since I'm hoping I might get you to see a little bit of different perspective. I would say that a lot of the problems occurring here are actually due to people's inability to accept others (acceptance does not include hostile people, as that creates a paradox and an unaccepting place). For instance, your struggle with accepting that trans people's true selves are the gender they identify as has led to what I will hope is an honest misunderstanding, and this misunderstanding has led to you saying hurtful things that may inspire others and sow more division. Psychological help doesn't really work in these scenarios, it is ineffective and the "transness" persists, because guess what its an inherent characteristic, much like being gay. If you actually want to help trans people, the route that has been shown to work is acceptance, which brings down the suicide rate sharply and leads to more fulfilling lives. Transition often also helps, so advocating for accessible health care for trans people would also help them. I am sorry you've suffered through a lot of trauma, no one should have to go through that. I am glad you were able to grow and work through it, that is legitimately admirable. I really do want you to understand that trans people are in the same boat, or at least a wildly similar one. They are subject to harassment, discrimination, and abuse, or even death. Trans people often have psychological trauma from the way society treats them, and I know it may be unknowingly, but by denying the legitimacy of trans peoples identities and advocating against transition, you are actively contributing to this. I say this not to insult you or logically corner you, but in the hopes that you realize how damaging your words can be, and possibly even work to rectify your actions. I would also like to point out that trans people do TONS of self development. A lot of introspection is needed to understand yourself enough to know that you aren't the gender everyone says you are. It takes long hours of thinking, dread for what people will say, doubt that you've got it wrong, trying things out, thinking again, all smattered with moments of utter joy when someone finally manages to gender you correctly, or you get to wear that piece of clothing that helps you feel more like yourself. Then, it might take months or years of therapy to understand your identity, confirm things, and/or bounce thoughts off someone else, then months of shaping up so you can make sure your surgery is the best it can be, not to mention waiting ages for the surgery itself. Its a lot of work, and a lot of time, and that whole time the brain is in overdrive, actualizing itself in a few-several years when many cis people take a life time. Because its necessary. Because otherwise they would be trapped in their own discomfort, suffering often, until they die (which is often and unfortunately much earlier than cis people, due basically solely to societal unacceptance). Trans people really do want to be themselves, but everyone expects "themselves" to be what society told them they were. If you want to encourage a trans person to be themselves, accept them as the person they are, and accept that their gender is the one they identify with. Trans people's peace comes when they have the body and support they need to live the lives they want. We've already gone through the journey of inner peace and self actualization that you advocate for (i agree with it, i think everyone should look within themselves and find a way to love themselves, find inner peace as you put it). Theyve found themselves and through this actualization, found out it doesn't match the way they currently are. It takes tremendous inner strength to come out even when people claim you are wrong and that your identity is wrong, and even more sureity and inner strength to be themselves despite the momentous backlash. They already possess this inner strength because of their introspection and deep self exploration, so it would be best to encourage their journey and accept them if introspection and inner peace and strength are you goals/values. It would also be more peaceful for them if you stopped spreading the idea that they are wrong about their gender identity and need psychological help (They need to see a psychiatrist to transition anyway, if they needed psychological help the psychiatrists would say so). Essentially, kindness and respect towards trans people and their identities would encourage the things that you want. Please remember that trans people are human beings, who in many cases are in a similar boat to you, and treat them as they would like to be treated =)
loved this, you say so eloquently and hilariously stuff that's been rattling disorganised around my noggin for a while. there's something so incredibly satisfying about taking the definition of sex from the TERF's own foundational text and breaking down that it actually is quite fuzzy and malleable. keep being awesome ✨
@@kimmmimemwest1895 I think we all knew that? (Excluding Intersex ppl, for this arguments purpose) Where talking about gender, come back when you know what it is.
@@kimmmimemwest1895 according to western society as a whole. It doesn't take much to show that biological sex is not the monolithic barrier it once was. And in modern times, it's becoming less relevant. Not to mention as stated in the video, defining sex in the first place is a hard thing to do, as by limiting the criteria to sex assigned at birth, you also limit its relevancy to society
5:46 I love it when Ben flubs a line and either no one cares enough to reshoot it or just somehow didn't notice. Remember when he claimed that there were people saying that you're gay if you *don't* want to sleep with trans women? lol.
I love it! Thank you for these insights! I’m so tired of trans and enby people being a debate. Why is our existence so polarized and why must so many people have opinions on it? We exist! End of story! We are NOT up for debate!
@@johnc3525 You mean when we started telling people who we are and asking to be respected instead of forcing ourselves to try to fit into the boxes society made for us and shoved us into? So, again, your issue is with us existing as we are and asking to be addressed for who we are rather than who you think we should be.
@@jungmanriver Please don't take this the wrong way but: 1) This could be their third of fourth language, in which case they're very smart for writing in it at all. 2) This honestly seems like a joke spelling. 3) Let's not equate intelligence and spelling. I never make mistakes and my head is the hollow nest of a dancing carnival monkey.
HIIIIIIIIIII LILYYYYYYYYYYYY i love your jacket sm- also i love what you said at the beginning, i saw a tiktok about it and i can show you sometime :) you're such an incredible sister and im so proud of how far you've come! i tell all my friends about you and THEY. LOVE. YOUR. CHANNEL. we talk about it at lunch and it starts a lot of interesting convos :) i love you so much and i always will. I havent even finished this vid yet but i love it- I MISS UUUUUUUUUUU
I'm AFAB, went through female puberty, and I have wide shoulders (the only shirts that fit me, are boys/men's, or else the sleeves get ripped), and I have a lower voice and prefer singing tenor. I used to be insecure about it, then I questioned my gender and realized that I don't have a deeply felt sense of gender, and since I graduated high school, I've been focusing more on what works for me, without worrying what people think of me. I do prefer more neutral presentation, but the concept of gender is interesting, and confusing, yet important, as that's such a big way of how people see others.
god i have so many thoughts!!! but first of all: what an excellent video, you've done it again! Mainstreaming this conversation about sex is I think really really important and your arguments are so clear and well reasoned. I really hope this fuels some good discussion in this area, because often I feel like there is this odd hesitancy to discuss what's being discussed when terfs(and other transphobes) talk about biological sex, as if trans people will always be the losers in this arena(which is silly but I also sympathize with). Something I find striking in these sex vs gender discussions is how.. english speaking they are, I guess. In my language, there isn't a distinction like that. There's just one word, and it's always made me view the rethorical sex/gender split with a bit of distrust/suspicion for that reason ngl haha it's the same thing! it's just one thing!! But the internet and most easily accessible media is in english, so we get sex/gender split discourse foisted upon us Anyway, if anyone is reading these comments and interested in knowing more sexual differences here's some stuff I find interesting: The definition of biological sex varies across disciplines and also history, it's a very use-based system, and in biology gamete definition is generally used because dividing things into male/female using our human ideas thereof is actually really hard! Many animals have three or four sexes(see: Bees and Ruffs) and once we get to a microscopic level you might see over ten different types of gametes in one species since it allows reproduction between more individuals than the two-gamete system. It's a wild world out there. The chromosomal definition of sexual difference is even more recent than their discovery, and the chromosomal-endocrinological theory of sexual determination in the fetus was widely debated throughout the start of the 20th century, only winnning out in the 1920s. Notably, we have trans people(ahistorical term, but for ease of writing) medically transitioning before then, which I think it pretty cool. It's really interesting that the idea of sex as a binary is also something still debated in the literature. While not much to do with trans people, and a bit outdated now, Fausto-Sterling's proposal of five sexes is an interesting place to start, as is looking into intersex history. This is a super interesting topic and this video was very good!! thank you!! sorry for rambling in your comment section but at least it'll up engagement lol
@@markh.876 It seems w/ mammals, biologists are largely in agreement that there are two, but I'm happy to be corrected on this point if there's evidence to the contrary.
@@markh.876 the person who wrote that comment literally provided the example of bees and ruffs in the next line. And i can tell you there are others like clam shrimp and frogs. There is also an all female species of lizard, so there's a wide variety of numbers of sexes in the animal kingdom (which we are a part of) and it's largely a by species basis. So, you no longer need to doubt it, there is a precedent for a lot of different numbers of sexes within animal species
@@emileconstance5851 As far as i know you're right, but there are cases of things like lions who were supposedly female developing male biological features like manes. That doesn't really disprove your point, but it is interesting and i figured you might want to hear it, since it sounds like you want to learn =)
find it weird to see the complete mesh of gender and gender roles. you can be a woman, be born a male, and not follow "female gender roles"... and still be binary
Another great thing to add onto this is that chromosomal sex is surprisingly not binary. Intersexual cases are a lot more common than they would be if they were simply "the exception". Many of these chromosomal differences are labeled disorders, though with the number of people diagnosed yearly (as well as the vast number of people who never get diagnosed and have no idea they are not male or female chromosomally), these numbers seem too large to ignore, but they are ignored. Ignored by government, society as a whole, and it's crazy to me.
@Kel-Tec KSG Apologies if it came off that way, even 1-5% of people diagnosed is an extreme number of people out of 7.7 billion, especially when you realize that there are *many* people undiagnosed that have no idea they're even chromosomally not male or female. The numbers aren't extreme to the extent of 50/50 like our societal ideas of binary sex tend to be, but they are large enough to not be disorders as they're classified as currently, at least to me
@catch22 many people don't find out until we're older, because it's not every day you get your blood tested for your chromosomes. Hell, some people have ovaries but no v@g!n@l opening and dont realize that's not normal until many years later
When Lily was like "Now do TERFs have any credibility" I was like "WAIT!!! CRAP!!! WRONG VIDEO!!! WRONG PLACE!!! SHAPIRO GOT ME!!! I GOTTA RUN!!!" Then I heard "No" and then all became ok.
Everyone feels like that. No one "knows" or "feels" what sex they are, they just are that sex. No one is assigned a sex at birth the doctor observes what sex you are and records it. Feminists and women who are concerned about this virtue signalers such as this girl, are worried about the number of rapes that are happening in women prisons, for instance. 200 years ago a woman called Elizabeth Fry fought to make prisons single sex because women were being assaulted at an alarming rate. Now, in the UK, 60% of trans women in women's prisons are on the sex offenders register and women have been raped and in the US made pregnant via coertion by male bodied people claiming to be women to escape male prison conditions. This is just one result of self identity which is the main thing so-called TERFS are trying to prevent. We want to protect women's safe spaces is all.
@@ambientjohnny just because there are people who identify within certain degrees of femininity, doesn't mean women stop existing, doesn't mean women's right shouldn't be taken seriously.
i love listening to your voice. its just so easy to listen to, if that makes sense. and i love how you structured this video too, its a good flow that keeps may adhd brain fully engaged!
I can't really see anyone pointing this out and I'm surprised you didn't mention it but I feel it's also really important to point out that EVEN IF we were to only look at chromosomes it would not be the smoking gun they think it is. Not only because you can't know without a test, but also because CHROMOSOMES ARE WAY MORE COMPLICATED than the simple binary and what sex characteristics develop and when is way more complicated than XX equals vagina and XY equals penis. But also shouts to not having to engage at that level and spending your time dismantling their arguments per se, but critically examining how they're taken up discursively.
Yeah the fact that two women this year with XY chromosomes got pregnant and gave birth naturally. Sort of throws a wrench into the arguments that chromosomes = sex.....let alone gender.
Dude if u arent a troll, how have you gone xx years living on this planet and not realized there is a BIG Difference between other animals and humans. Like a LOT. We even have laws about how to treat us that are different! HUMAN rights! Because we have more complex thoughts. No of course we dont care about an animals gender, we cant ask them and if we could most if not all dont have the brain capacity for it. Humans can have complex thoughts. They can think about big things like who they are and what it means to have a certain genital, hormone balance, gametes, chromosomes, etc. And what its like to be told that you are in a group or not. We can question and consider these things. I cant believe Im telling some fucker that humans have bigger brains that animals jfc. I try not to be mean but society has failed u.
I think what I am coming to realize is that the view I have of sex and gender is held by a very small minority of people. And the idea that the majority of people have is so foreign and strange to me that I cannot and may never understand it. To me, defining a man or woman is purely physical. The fact that a person can look at even just a picture of a human being and make an assumption of whether they are a man or woman seems to me to make this obvious. If it were dependent on likes, dislikes, behaviours, thought processes, anything social like that then we wouldn't be able to do that. I identify as a woman because I was identified as one at birth and have developed the physical characteristics of a woman since then. No other reason. And to me, it does not define me in any other sense. And if someone else is making assumptions about me based on that alone, that's their problem and I feel no compulsion to match those stereotypes or not. I also realize assumptions will be made because we're human and that's how our brains work; we identify subsets of people and associate ideas about them dependant on what we generally experience or see from those groups of people. But that doesn't mean assumptions are correct and if you get to know someone and they are different from how you assume, that's just normal. Almost no one is going to fit all the stereotypes. I cannot understand then what people mean when they say they have a gender identity or a sense of self that includes a gender. There is no correct way to be a gender, so there is no correct way to feel in order to be valid as a given gender or not. Now maybe some people would call that idea being agender or non-binary or genderqueer or whatever... but I don't honestly want to identify myself that way, because to me this gives the idea of gender too much importance. To me, I'm a woman because I look like one... and any other attribute people associate with me because of that isn't going to change if I call myself something else, so what difference does it make? I would much prefer to just treat all people as people and recognize that no matter what assumptions your brain jumps to based on their appearance, just keep an open mind and change your perceptions of people as you get to know them. Is that so hard for people?
This is honestly *exactly* how I feel. Thank you for writing this down, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts better if I tried. The only thing is, I don't want to invalidate the experience of people who suffer from gender dysphoria, and I want them to have access to things that are proven to work in alleviating it. I do, however, have a theory that for many people, placing too much importance on gender only makes it worse. And I even dare to assume that there _might_ (possibly, maybe, maybe not) be a way for most people to reach a point where their gender/sex doesn't define the way they see themselves, and if that assumption is correct, it could help those people suffer much less. I realize that many would find my ideas transphobic, but how can anyone claim that I hate trans people when I'm actually theorizing about things that could potentially make their lives better by helping them get rid of dysphoria, just in a different way? I have a lot of trans people in my life whom I love and cherish dearly, and I have to stay silent about my thoughts with them because it would break my heart to be seen as an enemy by them... I'm glad I could at least talk about it here, maybe someday I will find the courage and confidence to voice my honest thoughts openly.
I would mostly agree with this except it ignores people like me who are visually perceived as a woman but experience extreme distress at that fact and at being called a woman. This distress can't be fixed by methods other than transition ( many many many studies show this). Maybe someday we will move beyond the point of gendering people so much that dysphoria stops existing but at this point tran health care saves lifes and referring to people by their preferred pronouns safes lives.
@@erika_the_jinni I dont find it transphobic to say that we might be able to move beyond gender some day. But I dont think we can, even if I was on a deserted island completely alone, looking at my body would make me want to rip the world apart and cry and scream.
As a retired ob-gyn I would like to point out that when assigning sec in the delivery room I almost never had chromosomal or more importantly genetic data (see complete androgen insensitivity and sry translocations)but went on the best estimate of what the infant looked like “down below”
@@monicadaniels784 These days it is better to just admit uncertainty and get the available chromosome studies before making the call. Surgery to correct genital malformations are rarely done even in childhood rather wait until adolescence unless urologic function is also compromised. The most extreme examples are not detected until after puberty such as complete androgen insensitivity where we typically make the diagnosis when anormal appearing young female does not undergo pubertal changes. Exam then shows a shortened vagina and no cervix or uterus. Then the question is discussing the fact that someone’s daughter is genetically male. The best plan is wait in all cases to do any surgery and listen to the child as well as the parents but make all aware of the chromosomal and genetic facts and then the surgical and hormonal options
@@roberthampton2820 I'm so glad they have stopped doing surgeries on intersex babies.I have had two intersex friends who had a surgeon 'fix' them up to be male, including surgery, only to have them go through an emotional hell until they transitioned. Thankfully, they are happy finally. Thank you for responding.
I remember having a nagging thought as a kid, before I knew what a TERF was, we had other more problematic names for that type of 'feminist' of which I identified my mother as pretty early, even self identified strait out of high school as, they where not looking for equality, they where looking to take the power structures for them selves. I remember wondering what effect being a 'male child' of these women who seemed to firmly believe that the mere possession of a penis at any point in ones life made them a predater but also inept , I still hurt for those children, but very recently as a 'cis' woman (maybe? its under consideration at this point) myself I realized there's a question I needed to be asking myself. What effects does being a 'female child' suffer growing up with that belief. Looking back I have had more troubles in relationships with both men and women that boil down to this notion nagging in the background, even as I work to deconstruct it, its there. It's even reared itself in the way I interact with my trans friends, I have much more ease using correct pronouns with women than men, my mind has a hard time understanding why someone would 'choose' to be a man (I know its not a choice) I am lucky to have forgiving friends, and I correct EVERY time, never putting it off, it is important, but theses types of feminist damage the children they raise, all of them.
I totally get you, my mother was never a TERF, but has her more radical streak, which means evety now and then she calls men just "perpetrators". And she has this idea, that men in power will have a tendency to be abusive. I was allways a little bit wary in the presents of men. But considering, that all women I met since then, that had some or another experience with sexual assault, I wonder if this distrist is not actually kinda necessary in a society, that fosters toxic men on a rate that makes it an inevitability to meet them in your life. I have to say though: my mother is rethinking her positions, since I started to present her studies on the effectvof Testosteron on brains, the effect of socialisation compared to hormones, studies on childabuse and sexual abuse etc We both still agree, that there is a problem with how men (on average) behave. Especcially towards women, but she starts to see, that this is not a feature of male biology, and that things are changing.
@@blacktigerpaw1 what are you talking about? Who says we should not hold penis havers accountable? Everybody should be held accountable for what they do... Or not do... What makes you think anybody only cares when it affects transwomen? This is a pretty scewed view on the world.
@@blacktigerpaw1 no one is converting anything up, predators exist in every group, but the numbers don't lie, statistically trans people don't represent a particularly increased risk over any other group so there is no reason to reject them from spaces, but marginalized groups are statistically more likely to be predated against so they should have all the protections we can offer. You've heard about certain types of predators because they make better news, not because they are particularly more common .
@@blacktigerpaw1 transwomen crimes? What are you talking about? Being naked in a womens changing room? This is not a crime for a woman, independent how her genitals look like. The obsession with genitals of other people that bigots have absolutly escapes me. What do you think happens to anyone if they see a penis.... Not even an erect one... Just a penis.... In WI Spa, no crime was done. There only was a sensitive snow flake throwing a temper tantrum because they saw a penis. We DO address toxic masculinity and the problems that come with it. But denying a transwoman protection AND validation in women spaces just because some bigot is afraid of penisses is not an ethical option. Because no one gets hurt by seeing a penis, but transwomen get hurt by being denied access to womens spaces. And please.... Do not equate media reports with what transpeople or their allies say on a topic. They are not the same. BTW food for thought: since the right wing started to push the whole bathroom issue on which you bigots jump so readily to defend patrichal structures in the name of feminism, those who got hurt were mostly cis-women, that presented less feminine, they suddenly got attacked when they went to the bath room because of course no one checks the genitals, People judge on how they think a woman looks like... And everyone that does not fit, because they are to large, have to small tits, have short hair, wear baggy cloths etc. has to fear now getting visciously attacked by bigots if they want to use a public bathroom for women. Well, done standing up for women's rights.... And a second thought: do you really think, that a rapist will ever be stopped by a sign that reads "for women". Do you really think, that rapists dress up as women to attack women? Because this has not happened outside of movies and books. Its a fiction. I lie spun by bigots to harm people that refuse to conform to the patriarchal gender structure, especcially when they are penis havers, because if you want to subjugate half of the human species based on their genitals, you have to demonize everyone who dares to question the binary hirarchical order of things. You made yourself a willing tool of oppression by the patriarchy against the very same people you claim to fight for.
@@blacktigerpaw1 I sided with the petson, that, to my information, did nothing wrong, that was dragged into the public eye for just one reason: a bigot saw her penis and threw a hissy fit. Undressing in a dressing room is not a crime. This is all this transwoman did. She undressed in a changing room for women, in a business that is transinclusive. Claiming that this is somehow something bad, unethical or criminal is assinine. So the bigot was a poc... So what? Poc can be assholes, too. I will allways side with the person, that just exists against the person that claims to be hurt by the other persons existance. You sound exactly like the bigots in the 60s that whined about black people sitting on their seats and how it made them feel violated to have to sit so close to a POC, and that this is a crime against them. You know there is an easy solution if you don't feel like using a dressing room with a transwoman: don't frequent businesses that are transinclusive.
This is so excellent. I've been looking for a video just like this, which picks apart and really engages with these TERF arguments. Not just dismissing them out of hand, but actually talking it through and countering them with logic and discussion. Thank you.
@@kg356 I kinda see where your going at, but in my opinion, it's not so much as the rejection of birth sex. I'm Cis, so if any Trans person may find my words to be a bit jarring, please tell me, I don't want to be purposefully offensive. Transness has been tied to not only gender, but biology, but in the way of the brain. There are studies that show that the trans brain is different that the brain of the sex they are, and moreover aligns to the opposite sex. What I mean is not the brain, as in thoughts, ideologies, yadda yadda. I mean as in the actual physical brain, how certain parts of the brain are shaped and built, which can surface AS thoughts. Let's be honest, gender makes no sense, not in the sense that "WhAt thESe LiBERals ARE TrYIn tO Do-" kinda way, but more that we as a society have made certain clothes, personality, jobs, and behaviors tied to a certain sex, which makes the concept of gender, and when people of a certain sex break out of this "gender binary", they are seen as more like the opposite sex. These can surface in a cis man wearing a dress and being called "woman", "girly", "feminine. I don't think it's rejecting the sex at birth, it's rejecting the gender binary that comes with it. Although there is the can of worms that gender expression does not equal gender identity, but that's a whole can of worms I don't think we're ready for.
@@kg356 the TERF view on sex is clearly human constructed. In nature, animals with intersex conditions which lead to infertility are treated like "not sexed" individuals by the others, not like "one or the other". There is no strict binary sex system for each and every individual in nature. Such is only with making arbitrary assumtions, what nature doesn't do.
@@kg356 I see where you're going at, but I don't necessarily believe that it's "making up new genders". I think it's to say that gender itself is not a rigid concept, and moreso goes on about the absence of gender. I don't know how to explain the absence of gender, but I think it can be seen in how we have a regid concept for the two ends "man" and "woman", and then the spectrum that is "nonbinary". It's like 2 pieces of land with a sea in between. Even without the human brain theory, you kinda have to have a way to explain why all these people are so unhappy with their gender, while not falling into gender role stereotypes. When I was a kid, I always wished to be a boy, but it wasn't because I "felt" like a boy, it was because I idealized the stereotypes that went with being "a boy". In addition, I think that the reason people "make up" new genders, it's to have some connection you can make with how you feel about gender. I'm not sure about "horse gender", but I know that there are other black people that feel such a connection to their blackness that they've made a connection to it and their gender. I think they've pitched the term gendernoir. Gender is moreover just a connection. How connected do you feel with the (non stereotypical) concept of a women, how connected do you feel with the concept of a man, or how absent that connection is. It all honesty, I don't think we need to label this connection. Just using whatever pronouns you want (as long as its not a harmful concept) is probably good enough. Adding labels to both sexuality and gender I think is harmful, but if people need it, then so be it. (Sorry if this isn't structured well)
What it means to be something is honestly up to the person. If you feel a connection to the word "woman" and you would rather be a woman that any other concept of gender than go for it. We all assign value to these words. Just because they have value to you doesn't mean it has the same value to you. It's like have a penny. For some people it's just some useless copper. For others, that penny could be the deciding factor of getting you food, water, shelter, anything you need/want. It doesn't make any of these less/more important
congrats on your nebula success. this is a lovely video. pulling apart inconsistencies in terf ideology that it saddens me aren’t more obvious to the well meaning women i know that get fooled by it.
As a trans man I often feel like giving up what I've worked so hard for because people who would rather see my beginning than who I am now. Trans man are devalued and emasculated. We're seen as "silly girls" and we aren't even viscously attached like trans women are. I'm a metalhead and a punk and it shows so people don't often Mess with me but I have friends who aren't get shit all the time and its pathetic. People would rather pick on people who just want to live their life instead of challenging someone obviously ready for an argument.
As a trans guy I really don’t think gender neutral language like “people with uteruses” is right it does feel objectifying and trans people are a minority so it’s just not necessary to include them when the 99% of people with uteruses are women we should just refer to them as that you can call yourself a person with a uterus but I don’t think it’s right to use it as a term for everyone it doesn’t offend me and if it offends you you’re just soft and why people don’t take the trans community seriously
Perfectly willing to have that convo, personally my attraction is much about the vibes of the person and their general appearance than that the instant I see someone I am attracted to I consiously think about their genitals, for me the experience is more in the realm of gender.
@@tamarabrugara People have sex with each other, not gender with each other. Its not even about "thE firSt Thing yOU thInK abOUt wheN YoU liKe someonE is TheiR GeniTalS??" its about having a sexuality and (rightfully) presuming or assuming that the carpet should match the drapes if you catch my drift. Again you give all this purple prose about how its about the person and you would never think about their genitals right away, which I dont really believe, but whatever. But at the end of the day sexuality is rooted in *sex* .... that's kinda why sex is the root word in... sexuality. In online spaces ive personally seen trans activists trying to gaslight people about their own sexualities. Was on a gay subreddit a while ago and someone made a post asking if wed sleep with a trans men. Overwhelming majority said no. There was a lack of mean comments though the poll results were very.... stark, to say the least. The OP made an edit in the comments calling us transphobes. Another example I have was discussing trans rights in an AP Social Studies course I took some time ago. We had a hardcore lib girl, as every humanities class does. Ill never forget the moment she asked me, the only gay man in class, if Id sleep with a trans man who still had a vagina, and I said no. No insults or rant, just a simple flat no. She gave me the dirtiest, meanest glare. If specific genitalia dont belong to any sex and we're all just having gender with each other, then sexuality no longet exists. Put it this way: it is now the new wave for Trans activists to call straight men fascists/transphobes/bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women. By that same logic, are gay men hateful misogynists for not wanting to sleep with women? See how absurd the logic is? And its such a hoot and holler because trans people are such a miniscule part of the population. I dont understand why 98% of people have to destroy gender and re-conceptualize sexuality just to appease the 2%. Its weird and people are getting fed the hell up.
@@gamer1X12 why is it all these arguments revolve around prescriptivism and language tricks and strawpoles of online spaces ? Like I am lesbian if you were to have the same poll in r/actuallesbians that would not be the result, there are also actual studies on genital preferences that show they matter far less for certain sexualities. Also , you got a... glare ? Oh dear poor thing someone squinted their eyes.
Nobody said there's no such thing as sex. ofc sex is real, why do you think ppl physically transition? But because it exists doesn't mean gender doesn't
Why don't we see more trans-*inclusionary* radical feminists? It would be way easier to be one since it's less work, it lets more people into radical feminism (which to a radical feminist should be a good thing), and it makes more logical sense given what is being fought.
Because transgenderism and feminism are at odds. There are loads of good videos about it if you leave the echo chamber. Many of these "TERFs" make good points and aren't hateful at all, like Helen Joyce. Please just try exposing yourself to words stated by actual women instead of dismissing anyone with a different world view as hateful automatically. Labeling a woman to dismiss her and ignore her. Where have we seen that before?
This video essay was incredibly interesting, and brought to the forefront a lot of issues in a humorous yet still deeply introspective way. Thanks for sharing it.
since english is not my first lenguaje, I'll wrote my comment in spanish: En algún momento he estado de acuerdo con varios argumentos terf, ya que nunca fui completamente cerrada ante ninguna ideología. Sin embargo, en algún punto dejé de pensar en este tema de esa forma y progresivamente fui adoptando un punto de vista nuevo, más similar a este, no por haberme informado al respecto sino por experiencia. Este video fue muy calmado, sencillo de entender y me sirvió para cerrar mis ideas sobre este tema. Ahora siento que definitivamente me identifico con esta forma de pensar y que ahora sí tengo las palabras adecuadas para expresarlo. In summary, great video, it was very useful and easy to watch :]
"Terfs put a lot of stock in sex, the biological kind not the kind their husbands keep DMing me about" Only 4 minutes in and already instant like I don't even know why I like that joke so much but I do thanks Now to actually watch the video
@@xx-my5vh Trans people aren't the ones trying to put others into boxes based on their sex characteristics, terfs are. And not all trans people have surgery.
@@xx-my5vh All words are social constructions, and by extension, all categories are social constructions. Taxonomies need to be invented, they don't just spawn out of nothing.
@@xx-my5vh °c is a measurement. "Male" and "Female" do not measure any physical phenomena, we already have words for all sex characteristics. You'd only apply those words to them if you wanted to attribute a social connotation. Despite the pushback from terfs, the fact is, "person with penis/vagina/uterus/XY chromosomes/etc" is indeed the most objective description of a person's sex characteristics, but that wouldn't serve the anti-trans agenda.
@@xx-my5vh And more to the point, if someone tries to change their sex characteristics, and you try to stop them, YOU ARE TRYING TO FORCE THEM INTO A BOX!!! You're trying to keep them in the box they're in currently, to prevent mobility between the boxes. This isn't about "objective facts" anymore, this is about controlling behaviour. What if, in this argument, we replaced gender affirmation surgery with premarital sex, or being gay, or tattoos, or anything else that conservatives hate and try to police? The person doing the thing is not nearly as obsessed with it as the person going to great lengths to stop them from doing it and/or punish them for it.
god you're so right and i loved this video. when it popped up in my youtube home page i was so excited, a lot of it was thoughts i vaguely had before, but this put it all into such good perspective and proper language i was so happy watching it! definitely a banger. queen.
@@lily_lxndr I hope you're doing fine and taking care of yourself rn. Don't forget you have lots of people who love and appreciate your content and you as a person even If these are hard times.
A lot of this seems to stem from the fight for what is considered a "woman". Would it makes things easier if we're just more specific about it? Like "cis-woman" and "trans-woman"? This combine sex and gender. One of the biggest issue seems to be this confusion for some people that perceived trans-women claiming to be cis-women.
That specific language can be useful sometimes, but it seems like only trans people and allies are actually in favor of using it. TERFs say things like "Don't call me 'cis'" because they want the word "woman" to mean cis women only.
Yeah I think that's the biggest point that many people miss. Most trans women want to change their sex, but that doesn't mean they ignore it. They don't want to erase womanhood, but instead embrace their own.
I: Wow, I've never thought of it this way But to answer your question, I'm afraid being "more specific about it" wouldn't help much, unfortunately There's a very similar situation in the plural community, which your post reminded me of. It's tough to explain briefly, but gonna try: plural people are people who, for a multitude of possible reasons, have a brain structured in a way that there are multiple distinct identities/personhoods/simply put, _people_ co-existing within, instead of just one. The most common reason for a brain to be(come) structured this way is childhood trauma leading to the development of DID or OSDD. It's not the only possible origin, but many people with DID, much like terfs do with womanhood, sadly believe that they are the only plural people in existence, and any other people who claim to be plural (and _are)_ but without childhood trauma as the origin reason, are either lying, or "appropriating" plurality At one point, a certain system (collection of individuals within a plural brain) came up with the term "endogenic" to describe their origins, meaning a system who did not originate from trauma, but due to any other reason; and conversely, the term "traumagenic" to describe systems originating from trauma. They did so thinking that making the distinction would alleviate the animosity within the community, but unfortunately, the opposite happened - the "system medicalists" (the "terf equivalent" in the plural community) adopted the use of the labels, _and_ an "endos (as they oh-so-lovingly dubbed us) not welcome" approach at "best", and targeted harrassment raids on endogenic-friendly chatting servers at worst Those who discriminate against others by not allowing them the claim to an identity, won't change their mind if the title for said identity introduces more nuance 😔 Just to make it clear; most traumagenic systems _don't_ act/think this way; the hostile exclusionary folks are a loud minority
"oh you think being a woman is just about being beautiful and feminine, you think if i thought that i would look like THIS right now?`" THIS THIS THIS HOLY SHIT FINALLY THANK YOU
A friend provided me with a really useful breakdown. I now share it with thee: Generally speaking, in order to fully discuss this topic, you need to know someone's sex, gender identity, gender expression, alignment, and to a lesser degree, sexual orientation. Sex can refer to someone's biological sex, commonly referred to as their "assigned at birth" sex, or their sex based on physicality. Those who surgically transition will have changed their physical sex, without changing their biological sex, so there is a need for a distinction. As you have pointed out, neither of these are strictly binary. However, they will generally fall into the category of male/female/neuter. Gender is then a set of behaviors or roles that have come to be associated with the sexes, chiefly masculine (male), feminine (female), indefinite (either), and neutral (neuter). Gender roles are largely social constructs, and they are enforced through social pressure and expectations. There may be some biological inclinations for certain behaviors, but there there aren't any physical barriers to 'violating' gender roles. Men can be sensitive and nurturing just as much as women can be rugged and stalwart. It can be difficult to explain the problems with Gender Roles as their influence is subtle and pervasive. People have agency and they can freely choose how they behave at any given moment, so the effect is hard to see. Gender roles manifest over the scale of a lifetime, by skewing the values we hold, and then allowing us to choose 'freely' based on the skewed values we were given. As a metaphor, "You decided whether to turn left or right, but the roads were built long before you got here." Gender Identity is what manifests as a by-product of those instilled values and social pressures. It is the culmination of how you see yourself, your values, and the role you have in society and relationships. As with sex it generally falls into the binary macro categories of 'masculine' or 'feminine'. However, identity is more complicated, and has a whole host of nuances, which I won't get into here. Gender Expression is the ways in which you effectively act out your Gender Identity. There are myriad options here, but this is things like choosing to work for longer hours so you can provide for your family, or choosing to give up your own career so you can stay home and look after the kids. Expression doesn't come up as much in conversation as it probably should, but this is the part where others get to see your choices and judge you for them. It's the 'camp' gay, or the 'butch' lesbian... but even outside of LGBT, this is where judgements come for stay at home dads, or career women, or asexuals who haven't "found a girl and settled down". A lot of the toxicity of gender roles comes to bare in the realm of Gender Expression. It isn't just that you have masculine values/identity. It is the performative aspect of -being- masculine, in ways that others can see, and broadcasting your identity in that way. Which brings us to Gender Alignment. The simplest terms for this are "cis-" (same) and "trans-" (opposed). There are other alignments, such as "fluid" (variable) or "non-binary" (neutral, generally), but those are less common and require further discussion. At its core, this is a question of whether or not your personal gender identity is aligned with the gender role that is socially expected of you. Saying that you are "cisgendered" simply means that your gender is (mostly) aligned with social expectations. Saying you are "transgendered" simply means that your gender (mostly) does not align with social expectations. That doesn't strictly mean your identity is a binary masc/fem flip, but it is often interpreted that way, which is what terms like non-binary (enby) exist to specify. The important thing to remember about "cis-" and "trans-" is that they are prefixes. They don't exist in isolation. They can describe your sex and gender independently. You can be transgender without being transsexual, or visa versa. For a lot of trans people, they are perfectly content to change only their gender or their sex, and have no desire to change both. Trans does not have to be a blanket statement. Finally, the matter of Sexual Orientation... This is more complicated than it needs to be, since the terms we use for it are a dated mess. The language used here is from a time before distinctions were made between sex and gender, much less transitioning. Because of that, discussing sexuality is almost impossible without reverting back to a binary form of sex and gender. "Do you like dicks or vaginas? Masculinity or femininity? Is your sex/gender the same as their sex/gender?" We do our best with this, but the conversation is fundamentally broken at the moment, especially where transitions are concerned.
I often wonder what gender would look like in an egalitarian society where the discrimination against trans folks, non-binary people, and women as well as discrimination according to sexual characteristics didn't exist. What would transness or queerness look like? What would gender expression look like? When you're stuck in an oppressive structure it's hard to imagine what it's like to be free.
I was just talking about this stuff with my friend this morning! TERF ideology is just beginning its media moment in my country. While it breaks my heart to see the bullshit this heaps onto trans people, as a cis woman it also scares me to see increased social acceptability of a deterministic view of assigned sex. I don't particularly care for living in a separate sphere from men or my body's ability to *~*create life*~* as I don't plan on using it, thanks. I struggle with not wanting to center cis women in this conversation yet also acknowledging that TERF ideology does not only harm trans people, about which I think many cis people are oblivious.
Mhm. Terf ideology harms cis women too, and is often at its core stemmed from old misogynist ideas. But try to tell them that, and they'll try their hardest to dig their way out of it. They can't stand the idea that they *really are not* the feminists they claim to be
@@kezkai And the solution to misogyny is by changing definitions of a woman, for example? How will it change anything? I don't care if my wife has a gender identity of a woman or of a man if it only means "woman is a person having a woman's gender Identity". And what is "woman's gender identity"? It is not about personality. My wife may be stereotypically feminine in personality traits and preferences. It is not about being gender nonconforming? So my wife may be feminine in regards to social norms, roles. Yet you claim she may have a gender identity of a man. To me my wife would be a feminine female wishing to perform feminine roles. So what is your point?
@@kezkai You wish me to treat males as females because they identify themselves as women? And what exactly would that imply? I am already expected to be the same toward men and women, equal treatment. There are already gender nonconforming females whom I am expected to respect. So what does it change if a male identifying as a woman came up to me? Horseshit, horseshit, horseshit.
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*takes estrogen and progesterone pills while watching the video*
@@reaganeidemiller7132 that’s the canonical viewing experience
@@lily_lxndr drinking game where every time terfs suck you take a shot, but instead of shots it's estrogen lol
@@calitaliarepublic6753 you are a disgusting person to be honest, and completely failed to address the fact that all TERF points boil down to picking whatever excludes trans people, regardless of whether it targets other women or makes even a tiny amount of sense.
TERFs are sexist, innately; they seek to reduce women to a single biological property that not all women, or even cis women, could ever fit into.
Forcing women into a tiny box is sexist.
As a cis woman with neither cervix nor uterus I’m very happy to no longer be on the receiving end of misogyny since my hysterectomy.oh, wait, that didn’t happen. And my trans and enby friends definitely don’t suffer misogyny because people always check chromosomes before discriminating against them.
Theoretically, a lot of people might be intersex without even knowing it, too, making the chromosome thing kind of silly
@@AbandonedVoid Not really. Most intersex people has a predominant sex and just one of their sexual organ works. It's very, very rare the people who has both functioning completely right.
Intersex people really vary a lot in an spectrum. Also chromossomes don't define only your sex, but also defines other caracteristics like how much you produce of each hormone.
We should never take the exception and turn it intoo the ruel, that's not how science works.
Just imagine, if you drop a ball into a ambient projected to be 0 gravity, can we say that gravity doesn't exist (Or that all of the planet earth is 0 gravity) because in this particular place it has 0 gravity? No, because it's an exception to the rule. The same works for anything in science, you can't say that chromossomes doesn't matter because less than 1% of total population "born with two sexes". That's anti scientific.
The point is biological males don't *have* to go through life suffering misogyny. They have an 'out' if they wish to take it. It's like that white woman who pretended to be black. What made her complaints of racism so egregious is that at any point she could have opted out. All females loose the capacity to reproduce at some point, indeed are born without it, so yours is a silly point.
You had a uterus though. Your argument is invalid.
@@AbandonedVoid intersex is a biological abnormality. Just like having 6 toes instead of 5.. Humans have 5 toes overall with the low percentage of people being born with six or less. Intersex is not a good agruement to prove that sex isn't binary.
"The Transexual Empire" is a way cooler title than the book deserves.
If it makes it better the Slap-back is called "the empire strikes back", which is absolute banter
@@MadameCorgi Love this 😂
I'ts free to read in the internet, everyone who is interested in TERF ideology should read it. It's the ideological base of all today's TERFism.
@@miriamlana833 I'll keep that in mind if I ever have a free evening I feel like ruining.
@@sethk5396 please don't get triggered by it, it's partly very annoying.
"No propnouns? Damn... another victim of gender identity theft" LMAO
Does also call to mind the avoidance of pronouns with certain CLAMP characters who are Genderless/Agender and used their names all the way through?
*we’ll be right back folks!*
If a person has no pronouns, it's because that person got stuck with all the casualnouns
As a Native person here in America, in the middle of all this discourse, it had been very confusing to navigate my gender.
I think me and my family live under a multicultural lense, one which is our tribe's and the other which is the western American culture. And in terms of gender they readily conflict. I think especially when you said that Terfs don't actually care what your bio sex is, but what your assigned gender is, it immediately made me think of colonialism and cultural supremacy. You see there's a core practice of receiving your name that almost every culture has, and what's interesting is that in the West a baby shall receive it's name at birth and that will in general be it's name for life. I found that in my tribe and a few others children will be given a pet name until the age that this child develops their personality, then they will be given their true name. And there are also many religious ties to the process of adolescence and self discovery. While this is not gender, I think the process is very similar to how us trans people deal with oppression in the west and how we go through self discovery.
And for me I don't like to discuss my gender much because the regular American wouldn't understand at all. In my tribe there are four genders, which are a man with a masculine spirit, a woman with a feminine spirit, a man with a feminine spirit, and a woman with a masculine spirit. And for me I identify most with being a man with a feminine spirit, but see this wouldn't make sense to a westerner because my assigned gender was female, I think at first glance a transphobe/terf would assume this gender to be akin to a trans woman, but it is not the same thing. With this, the way gender roles are understood in my tribe get further strayed away from the western mindset, like there are certain roles and places of labor designated to people with a feminine spirit, like the rice fields and the moon because they are both tied to feminity, and I've seen many academic articles written by observers say that these are "women's spaces" but that isn't really the case.
Thank you for sharing!
Hi, if you don’t mind me asking can you explain more about what is “feminine and masculine spirit”? Or where can i read more about it
Thank you for sharing. The simple fact that your tribe has a very different way of seeing gender is one of those things the TERFs can't abide by. Gender, being a social construct, can be socially constructed differently in different societies. As a transgender woman studying sociology your tribe's concept of gender sounds fascinating.
@@SherriGlebus How does one "observe" chromosomes, genes, gametes, hormones, and internal genitalia in the moments between birth and the proclamation of "its a boy" or "its a girl"? They don't wait for all that testing; more accurately those things are almost never tested. Biological sex is 2 chromosomes in 8 viable combinations, 27 genes (and counting), a handful of hormones, internal and external genitals, and secondary sex characteristics. Sex isn't binary, it's bimodal. They assign sex based on one visible trait. The proportion of people who are intersex is largely unknown precisely because we do not test for it. People who know they are intersex find out either because the doctor was unable to easily assign their sex, based on indeterminate genitalia, or while investigating some other health concern. Some studies indicate the rate of undiagnosed intersex traits could be many times higher than currently thought.
This is very interesting. I would like to learn more about it.
I didn't know the idea of giving babies a name could be a weird thing, but it makes sense.
The phrase Assigned Online At Birth is the most depressingly funny shit I've heard in a while
Nice to see your comment here! 😆
When you mentioned the catholics protesting gender as a whole, I was like “hell yeah, fuck gender roles!” and then you explained what they ACTUALLY meant and I quickly became disappointed
As an intersex trans woman I never produced "male" gametes, and I never had a Y chromosome... But I was certainly assigned male at birth, much to my chagrin.
It was really awkward when my sister ended up being a TERF, painful too.
@@Emily-pi3wg oh I'm sorry girl, that sucks
@@passionate_possum_pal I like your screen name... And your icon 💛💜💛
@@Emily-pi3wg thanks :)
@@dogisgreat1 sex is a biological reality only in as much as humans experience sexual development.
Sex confirmation when a person is born is simply the observation of if your newly birthed infant genitalia look appropriate at a glance, and the recording of that glance is a bureaucratic formality.
People with a 46XX karyotype can be born with a penis and descended gonads(testes) that produce testosterone but not gametes.
A person with a 46XY karyotype but an unexpressed SRY gene (swyers) will have a vagina and uterus and can carry a pregnancy.
There are also many other karyotypes than just XY and XX not to mention mosaics and chimaera and genes of sexual development, and hormones. Medically speaking intersex people are extremely common.
Sex as it is generally understood is as much a social construct as gender. It is a social construct that intersex people have been routinely abused to force us to align with a perisex binary that simply doesn't exist.
It's so interesting to hear phrases like "gender and sex are different" are now old to some people. Where I come from, people are still wrapping their heads around the idea that biological sex and sexuality are different 🙄
As a non-binary person, I'm just going to say that gender definitely matters. Without other people having it, I never would've figured out that I don't really experience it. The way it gets pushed on you every day and from every direction is total crap, though.
Thanks for sharing, I hadn't thought of it like this!
@Jaycee It’s called venting. You vent to complain about venting. This is free speech, and I’m glad it’s a thing. Yet another construct that’s a thing.
@Jaycee I figured I was on point. Lily was countering the TERFs on whether or not gender is real and matters, and I agree that it is, even though it is very much a construct. That's what I said. The last bit was a bit of venting on the subject because it happens all the time, and I hadn't seen anyone else saying they were non-binary in the "top" comments. It kind of followed the "themming" joke that was in the video and that Lily apologized for in the same video. I responded (and vented) to the video. I notice you're insinuating that this has nothing to do with the video or maybe that my observation about both of us using our free speech had nothing to do with how criticism is part of free speech while trying to skirt around how passive-aggressive you sounded in the moment. This just seems to be the way you are, though. Bye.
@Sweet Tea Got a notification of a reply asking about experience, but I can't find the reply. Had to reread my comment. Experiencing gender has been described to me as knowing you're a man or woman or fluid or something else, even if it's in spite of what others tell you you are. I've never had that kind of internal gender knowledge. I used to assume in high school that gender was something others put on you. Hearing other people's experiences with gender from within (and how it clashed with society) helped me figure out what my gender wasn't...and was. Hope that helps.
@@spacevspitch4028 more power to you
Your brave Ted talk of “I think women are people. Thank you.” caused me to do a spit-take of Lacroix. You are amazing
Made me think about saying such things are a societal construct, in every single way I'd say its more of a comparison as well is nationality. You wont ever change your place of birth, but you can change your nationality
@@TheAllomar no you're the ones causing their suicide by being a hateful asshole
@@TheAllomar 60? the number you people usually peddle is 40. and what do you think it is that causes trans people to kill themselves? could one contributing factor be,., oh, idk, a society that tells them they are abnormal freaks? you're obviously a ben shapiro watching troll so i'll leave it at that bye
@@TheAllomar it’s called subversive or self-aware humor, try to keep up luv
Worth to point out that although yes, we can't change chromosomes (yet?), there ARE people with XY chromosomes who are born AFAB and develop as women, and vice versa. This is because most of our sex-different features hinge on a single gene called the SRY gene, which is supposed to be in the Y chromosome, but sometimes ends up in the X during meiosis. For this reason these people also have funky gametes making them hard to get placed in a binary worldview of sex. And even THEN, some people are born resistant to their sex hormones, making them not develop according to their chromosomes. So even in a deeply scientific level, sex is also not binary.
There's a syndrome where XY people are born resistant to testosterone, are assigned female at birth, and then their genitals develop (read: TAKE A HARD TURN) during puberty. They are XY, they have the biological traits of a male with NO medical intervention, they were simply assigned female at birth by the same people who would now assign them male. IT'S ALL FAKE.
Yes. Literally Caster Semenya, and another African afab athlete whose name I don't remember who got banned last month. It's such a Euro-imperialistic idea that things has to be divided like / that, and it only results in the people who belongs under umbrella term "women" having their cakes taken away, when NON of such scrutiny or harassment goes to male athletes for whom being physically better is just a thing they do.
Also idk, doesn't cis euro athletes get better environment for athletic training or something? Do they even count that in when mentioning how chromosomes or genetics decide the result? I doubt it.
Fair point but what you've just highlighted there is the exception to the standard. Everything has exceptions and sex is no different. However, that's what they are. Exceptions. The standard is male and female. Always has been. Kinda has to be otherwise the human race would die out. So to cut a long story short, the Queer community as they call themselves are exceptions to the standard and there's nothing wrong with that. I myself am an exception since I was born disabled but it doesn't make me any less human than someone who isn't. The same applies to the Queer community. Just because they are exceptions doesn't mean they're any less human.
Those people make up about 0.02% of the population. That's far less likely than, say, polydactylism. So, unless you want to start teaching that humans generally have anywhere from 8 to 12 fingers, you should stop teaching that sex is a spectrum.
Bringing up intersex in the first place is dodging the main point of the discussion. It's like saying that abortion is okay in the case of rape, so therefore abortion is okay in all cases. Sure, someone who is intersex could be allowed to identify with a sex different from the one assigned at birth. That doesn't make it okay for someone who by all measures is biologically female to identify as a male.
@@xa1551 Where do you get the "0.02%" number from? When I researched where you may have gotten this, I found that 0.02% of people born get "corrective" genit*l surgery, but it's important to point out that there are people who are intersex who do did not have corrective surgery when they were born. As I explained above, many intersex people look perfectly normal and don't find out that they're intersex until decades after they're born, sometimes never at all. A study as far back as 2000 titled "How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis" by Melanie Blackless (from the Department of Molecular and Cell Biology and Biochemistry in Brown University) et al estimates the incidence of intersex people may be as high as 2%. That makes intersex people as common as redheaded or green eyed people. So, unless you consider redheads and people with green eyes unnatural as well, I don't see why intersex people are any different. Because yes, I *would* teach that humans generally come in the eye colors of brown, blue, gray, or green, on a spectrum; hair colors of brown, blonde, gray, or red, on a spectrum; and sex of male or female, also on a spectrum. If you care to learn more about the subject and how high the incidence of nonbinary sex and gender is among humans (and other animals too), I suggest you watch a video called "Sex and Sensibility" on youtube by Forrest Valkai (a biologist, unlike me and, if I had to guess, unlike you too).
It irks me to no end when people think that saying something is a "social construct" means its not real. We point out that things are constructed in the same way we see a building as constructed, not to say its not there, but rather that it wasn't always, and that it can be destroyed.
Race being a social construct always blows their little minds.
Transgender & gender identity is a social construct. Literally
an example: government is constructed by people, but if you going around claiming "France/USA/Ghana isn't real!" you are in for some surprises in this world
Religion is also a social construction, but tell a Christian that and oh boy the hate you'll get
In fact, language is a social construct.
Growing up in the 1950's and 1960's I may not have known the words to describe myself -- or the far worse words to describe my Dad when at 5 years of age my Dad Went into a Rage of Severely Verbally Degrading me for being a girl. I wish that I would have been brave enough to have told my dad, "So what, I already know I am a girl and having that horrible thing my birth doctor looked at when he misgendered me does NOT define who I am." I grew up forbidden to do things female. Yet my parents would have gotten exactly the same results if they would have tried to verbally forbid the raging waters from flowing over Niagara Falls. It was seriously that degree of impossible for me to stop being a girl. I have never needed to learn how to be a woman because I have always been authentically female, with a female personality, feelings, and emotions - merely just myself - who I am and have been all of my life. I cannot even begin to share with you how many times all throughout my life that I have called my Mother in tears over the least little things that for me felt like the end of the world. By the time I finally came out to my family -- my 5th sister's first comment to me was, "Hmm, OK, now it all makes sense." We have since become Best Friends and are both here for each other no matter what time of the day or night either of us may just need someone with whom to talk. ❤
So you feel you are female because you cry about the least little things? That's how you define being female? How regressive.
I am so sad so many within our society feel ostracized for just being who they are. If I were beside you I would ask if I could give you a hug. You are perfectly wonderful *just the way you are.*
If I am reading this correctly, you are a man, and the doctor who delivered you saw your penis and testicles and said "this is a boy," but according to the metrics of The Big 5 Personality Assessment, you fit in the 10% of men whose scores look like most women's scores (higher in Agreeableness and higher in Neuroticism,) with stereotypically female interests, and you have never quite felt like you "fit in." Is this correct?
@Genevieve Pilz Your backpfiefengesicht is showing.
26:30 "How could chromosomes be so essential to the oppression of women when most of us don't even know what our own are" - some good shit
@@ambientjohnny ok white girl living in a western country
@@ambientjohnny and tbh the countries where it does happens, trans women and girls have it as bad as this yes.
Yeah rock on @@DrAbadie. Nice one haha, calling her white. You showed her. Don't wanna mess with you, you'll drive me into the ground with your arguments. Might call me white too.
Also I thought people here are pussies that delete their comments, but someone else is obviously doing the deleting. Keep the echo chamber intact
Chromosomes are essential in making a woman a woman. If you think women are oppressed then their chromosomes played a vital role in that oppression.
@@_Sakidora_ No, they're really not. Misogyny stems from others perceiving you as a woman, and therefore lesser. There are intersex people who have usual female anatomy, including a vagina and breasts. Yet they possess XY chromosomes.
It stems from androgen insensitivity, so the body never masculinizes since it can't respond to testosterone and other androgens in the typical way. So instead, the body responds to its estrogens and develops a female appearance instead.
These people more often than not live as women, some may not even realize they have a different chromosomal mosaic until they investigate. Yet their chromosomes are what typically produce a male. But they developed female anatomy naturally, with no intervention other than a disordered response to hormones in their own body.
Are these not women, who experience misogyny?
I am terrified by how much we are on the same wavelength. I was ranting to a friend the other day about how money is a social construct but you still need it to buy things and traffic laws too! Also, you have no right to be both this funny and this good. Leave some amazing for the rest of us!
at a certain point, my argument for my own existence as a transman is; i don't care what you think, i'm happy.
"ItS BaSiC BiOLoGy!"
Okay well how 'bout we hit you with that _Advanced Biology_
Terf: It's 5th grade science!
Me, who graduated from 6th grade: 👁👄👁
@@LimeyLassen wait till they hear about college and professional level science
@@MEOWMIX3DS Can you explain whether gender identity (or sex identity) is based on biology or on the gender/sex one believes oneself to be. Because it seems like the latter is the only criterion regarding how we determine who is a woman and who is a man (or non-binary), according to the current transgender consensus. So, if gender/sex are not based on biology, why is it even relevant talking about college or professional level science vs 5th grad biology--isn't biology irrelevant WRT to gender/sex identity?
@@emileconstance5851 it's a fake appeal to authority. And a bad one at that. Wr have known for a pretty decent time by now that human sex is bimodal, with many conditions in an intersex spectrum.
TERFs grajeeated 5th grade and it only took them 4 years
I once got told not to say "people that have periods"*, because calling women "people" is... "dehumanising" 🤯🤯🤯🤯
What the fresh hell
Well, some people have such essentialist views of labels they just glue them together and hold on to the lump for dear life. To some people not being what the world wants them to be seems like a complete loss of self rather than a liberation, what can be said to change that?
@@Todesnuss huh?
@@Todesnuss "you're still allowed to paint your nails and sh*t"?
We don't complain of the "person" part (that shows u know a damn besides what these tras activists want to brainwash u to)... but to reduce us to "birthing individuals" or vagina holders or whatever shit is the problem, until men r not called eyaculators ull never sympathize with us bc that makes us feel as "the other ones", we face misogyny for being a woman which is a biological fact, for our sex not our gender so males defining what a woman is & to reduce us to "the other ones" bc it marginalizes a bunch of males (lmao)
Hi Lily. I don’t know if you’ll read this but it’s worth a shot. A few years ago we went to school with one another and we used to share the same spaces. Around this time I had fallen in with the Alt Right and so saying reactionary things about gender and LGBTQ+ issues (both online and in person) was normal to me. Over the years I have changed my views on these subjects and I can almost wholly credit watching video essayists like you. You are very composed and articulate (and hilarious), which makes learning about these topics really accessible and entertaining. I want to apologize for any harmful things I’ve said and thank you for the great work you do. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
Charles!! Wow dude, I didn’t think I’d ever hear from you again. Thank you! It’s good to hear you righted the ship.
welcome to the right side of history :) or should I say "left" side haha!
Charles, what are your thoughts on nepotism?
this is so heartwarming
@@resurgam75 We met at a free public college 5 years ago, what is this comment lol
I'm nonbinary and my gender and my sex are different, period. My existence shouldn't be seen as offensive... too radical, or not radical enough... or political. I'm not any of those things. I'm just nonbinary and trying to live my life. It sucks feeling disowned by cis-het society and queer society all at once.
There is no such thing as non binary. Dressing feminine and masculine or neutral doesn’t make your gender neutral. If you think so then you're literally supporting the fact that a guy can’t be feminine or else his gender is female and vice versa for females.
OK but a transgender 'woman'
raping women in a women's
prison & making them pregnant
is offensive . It happened.
Ngl, you put this better than I ever could
You are gender non conforming. Great, we should celebrate that. We've always had you so evolution obviously ensure you stuck around. However....ready for this? You are STILL male or female. Gender is a literary term co-opted by a paedophile named John Money. Please read up on it. You cannot perform a sex or gender and you cannot wear a sex or gender you just ARE a sex. You brain is part of your body and all you cells work together and are sexed (except blood cells), so unless you believe in mind/body dualism which has been debunked since the Enlightenment, you cannot be two things at once. In fact everyone is non binary because nobody "feels" they are a certain sex or even knows it....they just are.
yep, no one's identity needs to be 'radical' or 'not radical' it just needs to be yours. it's weird/wrong when a community that is supposed to be for the different (queer) people try to gatekeep, doesn't make any sense.
As someone comfortable as a cis man, I think it's easy to fall into a trap of mentally equating topics like these as some sort of attack. I guess it brings up the idea of _me_ having to act in a way that makes me uncomfortably, or doesn't line up with how I see myself. A bit ironic, isn't it?
I bring this up because early in the video you make it clear that it's all about just being who you are, in a way that really came through to me. I think a lot of men don't really get that sort of acceptance these days. Maybe that's the key to getting people on the same page about all this?
Also, your voice is super relaxing! I don't throw that out often, either.
literally like a couple days ago i was browsing nebula and was like "you know, lily should be on here" and now you are. incredible. i love to see it.
i also love commenting to engage with videos completely apropos of nothing; i just love engagement, and any algorithmic metrics tracking engagement should note: i'm engaged with this
You always comment the nicest stuff, thank you :)
That was an ACTUAL galaxy brain take, you were not kidding! I'm very affected by transphobia in general, as I feel I live in a very cis-centric world that doesn't recognize me as me, and this and your "what is a woman?" video just pulled out all the thorns of the snappy and concise arguments that shouldn't bother me but often do because of their exclusionary and validating intent. Thank you so, so much. I have no idea how you're so good at this.
oh my goodness thank you!
Agreed holy cow
Your reminder that the book was born out of Janice Raymond getting *Angry* after learning that there was a trans lady, Sandy Stone, working at the local lesbian radio station. There is an episode of the podcast Hi-Phi Nation called "For Women Only", which features interviews from both of them on what was happening in queer circles back in the 70s.
The podcast itself can often fall into what-about-isms, but these interviews are pretty insightful by themselves, I think.
I’ve heard of the Sandy Stone beef but not in depth. I’ll check it out, thank you!
@@blacktigerpaw1 you are probably none but a TERF bot. You can do nothing else but spread around standard TERF bs phrases.
@@blacktigerpaw1 biological sex is real and you aren't having any of it lmao
@@blacktigerpaw1 in any way. You are probably not. Why now using insulting vocabulary of the rightwing cismale transphobes, also in other comments? Standard TERF language no more enough? TERF bot update?
i love the idea that i, as a transmasc non-binary person, am escaping sexism by transitioning. Ya totally Susan, being trans has definitely made my experience of gender easier to navigate /s
yeah susan, being a transmasc definitely keeps me free from oppression and definitely does not set me up for harm from sexist misogynistic transphobic nuts /s
@@alienbeanboy just like this.
@@drmobius2343 a long haired feminine man sweatie
@@drmobius2343 thank you for the validation bestieee!!! 💕
@@drmobius2343 It's amazing, you're so incapable of comprehending that a trans person can also be GNC, that the moment he says he's feminine, you have to jump to assuming he's a trans woman, even though he literally said he's a trans man.
Me hearing anti-gender movement and thinking it was a bunch of agender people spreading awareness about their gender, lol .
God, I wish v.v
The ending is literally just "You became the thing you swore to destroy"
I feel that there is a difference between gender and gender roles? gender roles are behaviours that people around us try to teach us consciously or unconsciously based on their perception of our physical sex. And gender is the prioprioconception of ones own gender identity. An then there is gender performance...the gender role we choose to play, our conscious behaviors. I think making this distinction helps the discourse.
Are there any "toxic" gender roles? And if yes, who can rightly judge someone for inhabiting said toxic gender roles without denying those people their true gender identity?
@@lancewalker2595 Toxic gender roles things like telling women that mothers instinctively know how to raise a child and if they need help or get post-partum depression they are "defective". Toxic gender roles are things like telling men that they can only show anger and control, with no room for uncertainty or sadness or insecurity or else they're seen as "less than real men" and targetted with misogynistic insults and insinuations. Toxic gender roles are the idea that women are harmless and can't be predators so people excuse it when it's a female teacher having sex with male students.
So yes, there are toxic gender roles, and they're toxic because they hurt everyone, INCLUDING THE PEOPLE PERFORMING THEM.
@@lancewalker2595 i personally believe that gender roles become toxic once they have to be the only thing that dictate how you should live, act and feel about yourself.
for example if i, a cis woman, started wanting to act solely on what i think a feminine woman is, never tried to do anything that doesn’t fit that criteria even if i’m dying to do it, and it affects my self esteem and mental health whenever i fail to conform to it, then it becomes extremely toxic.
that’s what toxic gender roles are, they can be harmful to oneself if they have to be the only way you value yourself as a human being, but we can’t prevent people from wanting to be that even if they end up worse than what they used to be. it is a problem but we can’t do anything as long as they’re only hurting themselves, which is kinda okay in this society somehow and we shouldn’t judge no matter how self destructive it can be
HOWEVER, if all women suddenly started policing each other to act the way feminine women should act then not only does it because an even huge problem, it becomes much lire dangerous and critical to dismantle such behavior….but wait that already exists within many cultures and it creates a lot of self esteem problems, body image issues, shame, mental health issues and so on
not only that, but the manosphere suddenly started using this as a way to « regain » their worth as men, while at the same time destroying each other’s notions of what a man is the second a man « doesn’t act like one », add to that the constant force fed misogyny…that’s what toxic masculinity is. men talking about suicide rates within the male population while at the same time bashing and bullying other men who do not conform to their idealistic view of what men are, who they should be and how they should act. this is toxic masculinity. as long as one makes himself abide by it, before inevitably dying from the pressure, it shouldn’t matter, but since many men are trying to force others into this same toxic mindset, it becomes an international problem
toxic gender roles have always been taken to an extreme, historically, and they always had more or less impact on the people’s private lives and self esteem, but them coming back today is an unacceptable phenomenon, one that should be taken more seriously imo before more people end their own miserable lives
this doesn’t only affect cisgender people, it’s far from being a cisgender only problem, it’s something that feeds on people’s insecurities and lack of comfort within their own skin, that they go out of their way seeking validation by following a strict set of rules and integrating like minded communities…kinda like how ppl with EDs who deny treatment will try to live through their disorder and seek validation from ppl suffering of the same illness
@@immkk1125 I'm not a big fan of role playing, everyone would be better off just being; fuck all this "identity" talk, it's all pathetic nonsense.
As someone with a very uncomfortable and complex relationship to gender, I would love for it to just... not exist. However, an alternative where binary sex is then the end-all, be-all is even more hellish.
Tbh I'd love to see a world with no bearing given to biological sex or gender. With only one third-person pronoun (or system of third-person syntax), no gendered clothing, etc. But I understand that would require a large population to both agree with my vision and voluntarily give up their previous cultures, so it probably wouldn't work.
@@charliekahn4205 toki pona is a constructed language that has basically no gender (and it's only third person pronoun is "ona" which could be he/she/they/it depending on context) so we should all like go learn that and go create a genderless utopia in bir tawil or some shit lmao
toki pona li toki tan jan. ona li jo ala e unpa kulupu (li jo e nimi ijo wan: "ona") mi wile eni mi ale li kama sona e toki pona li pali e ma pona lon ma Pi Tawi anu ijo ante
@@thezipcreator I take it you've heard of Jan Misali
my agender heaven: the gendered activities/adornments we enjoy still exist but they're free from gender which no longer exists, and sex is considered to have no more bearing on your essential self than your hair color or height. I feel like I could've saved the bundles I spent on my transition if I had been born into that universe but here we are, lol...
@@kimmmimemwest1895 You didn't remotely engage with the content of this video... Gender is often made congruent to sex, but in realizing better utlility, has been considered as something all its own.
Historically, gender and gender expression are also very different across cultures. It's just an expression of the self...nothing to be afraid of.
10:00 I'm slightly confused by the term "chestfeeding" because isn't "breast" already gender-neutral? Hell, the word breast doesn't even have to mean boob (think "robin redbreast").
I remember having a conversation with a terf once about a trans girl who wanted to play on the girls team. She insisted that the girl would have an unfair advantage over "real girls", to which I pointed out that she hadn't even ever been through male puberty, the ONLY THING that could've given her said advantage. And what was her response? She didn't respond, she completely ignored my point, repeatedly, as she continued to reiterate that "He's a BOY! And everyone knows the boys are stronger than girls, it's just common sense".
That conversation taught me a lot about how terfs perceive biological sex. It's not about any observable reality to them, it's just about these broad stereotypes about what a "biological male" is like, and what a "biological female" is like. That's why it makes complete sense to me that 'The Transexual Empire' uses those six criteria, because in the author's mind, all AMAB people fit all of the male criteria, and all AFAB people fit all of the female criteria, just like how all trans girls supposedly have an advantage over cis girls even without male puberty.
Haha! That’s absolutely wild.
So you observe the reality that male puberty has athletic advantages over female puberty?
@@NanoNutrino Those advantages go away after some time on HRT, so it's not a valid reason to exclude any trans woman who's physically transitioned. I'm just saying, if you wanted to even begin arguing that she had an advantage, you'd need to connect that to her having gone through male puberty somehow, which you can't, because she never did.
Idk what the other commenters are talking about though. I've tried googling this, and nothing I've come across has even hinted at what they're suggesting. Everything I've seen has reiterated that reproductive organs are the only primary sex characteristics.
@@username.not.known2473 Laurel Hubbard didn't do so well at the Olympics so not exactly a great example if you're trying to prove trans women have some kind of inherent advantage
@@username.not.known2473 Hey, can I get a link to the page you found that quote? It sounds like an interesting read.
I love the "sex is your gametes" thing because I have streak gonads that don't produce gametes, which validates my agender identity 🤷
Being intersex has been my best shield against TERFs, they are so out of their depth with me
It's so ironic when someone say "I have no pronoun"
Hmmm... So I guess poor "I" is not a pronoun anymore.
Ppl talk about a "woman soul" or a "man soul", is that really a thing? If I dont have a body, I dont think I would have a gender at all.
And then you have me, who has always felt inherently connected to boyhood and manhood (despite boys constantly rejecting my presence because IDK, cooties or girls don't like games or something) even when I had NO IDEA there were trans people, much less that there was a WORD for them, and who always identified with male character, never saw myself in female characters, and clumsily used chest-binding as a teen because that made me feel like my body fit me more like that long before I even realized that's dysphoria and not just me thinking it's gross to be objectified because of chest lumps.
There's just something in me that *knows* I'm a man and *tells* other dudes I'm a man. (The weirdest validation of my gender ever has happened when a straight guy found my AFAB body attractive when I was closeted, but he complained to me that my personality and way of talking were just like talking to one of the bros and that was a massive turn-off.)
"Themming it up" is such a good phrase, and given that we have DID *and* mostly use they/them for individual ones of us, we're fractally themming it up
omg i love that for you (plural)!
When I've asked TERFs if they think intersex people should be assigned a gender identity that fits within a traditional 'male' or 'female' binary at birth, they usually say yes with all the confidence in the world. But when I hit them with the complexities of actual intersex conditions (like androgen insensitivity where a person is genetically male but develops in the womb and past puberty with outward female sex characteristics), I love watching as their confidence is crushed to smithereens.
And then I show them the multitude of studies that show that the structural and functional aspects of trans brains resembles much more closely that of the gender that they identify as rather than the gender they were assigned at birth... oh do they get nervous...
Neurosexism has been debunked numerous times.
well then show us the multitude of studies that show that the structural and functional aspects of trans brains resembles much more closely that of the gender that they identify as rather than the gender they were assigned at birth see how nervous anyone gets, everyone is aware ofthese supposed " multitude" of studies and they are debunked
Also woof, assigning intersex people a gender strictly at birth has had devastating effects for some intersex people, and I don't think enough TERFs realize how big the issue of IGM and related intersex topics really are.
Just wanted to respectfully point out that there are also numerous studies disproving the "gendered brain" theory.
@@mochatokah yeah, they do so by hyper focusing on all the metrics that are NOT implicated in gender identity, like grey and white matter densities, while completely ignoring the one organelle that is consistently shown to have taken on a cross-sex phenotype in trans people - the BSTc
Of all the hundreds of studies I've seen arguing against trans people, a small handful have approached the topic through neurology. Of those, I have not yet seen one attempt to debunk the findings relating to the BSTc
one year later and i’m already a different gender😭can’t even begin to describe how much i adore this channel
simply LOVE that for you
@@lily_lxndr i do too tbh!!! glad this has been a semi-good year for u too 😌
I’ve been moving towards my real gender since early this year(thanks to people like Kat Blaque and SamanthaLux). I hope people are accepting of you and your discovery. What are your pronouns btw?
@@drmobius2343 ruclips.net/video/sKez9rjJaNo/видео.html
@@blacktigerpaw1 cringe comment
I have credentials in the field of genetics and I'm a trans woman with XX chromosomes, male gametes, and breasts (no external hormone treatment administered). I was curious what your take on biological sex would be because a lot of people (trans or otherwise) try to talk about it based on what they read on wikipedia or maybe through light reading and don't get it scientifically accurate. BUT you successfully avoided all of that and I commend you for the ultimately relevant take!
@@suigeneris2663 - Exceptions don't necessarily "invalidate or otherwise change the rules". You make exceptions for exceptions because the premises the rules are based on aren't infallable and work very poorly as an umbrella.
@@Junosensei Rules are never perfect, after all.
@@Junosensei Though when you find a SIGNIFICANT amount of exceptions that kind of tells you that the rules are not properly defined and require a new hypothesis that accounts for those divergences (or explains them in a way that reinforces the rules).
So your 'Intersex'. You are part of 1% , of the human population. 99% of the population are normal Males or Females. Exceptions do not change the rule. We are a dimorphic species just like cats and dogs.
@@aprilrae6551 - The intersex population is around 0.5%-1.7% of the world, meaning 40 million to 150 million people, which is about how many humans existed on the _entire planet_ when the U.S. as a country was first established. There are enough of us to dominate _an entire Earth-sized planet,_ but we're still too small a group to warrant consideration?
gender is fucking weird. im definitely not a man, but woman sometimes doesnt feel right either. but i dont think i have enough trouble with being seen as one, as to be nonbinary. and then also in my language, gender-neutral pronouns etc dont exist. every noun that describes a person is gendered basically. you cant just say "doctor" for example, you can only say "male doctor" or "female doctor", and it pisses me off. i wish it could be possible to literally just be a person without a gender lol. just me, no gender, thank you.
That is why I adore the terms Agender and Genderflux and Genderqueer to describe that feeling
To me the gender component of language is just a custom to concede to at worst or to validate oneself with at best. Moreover it is there to imo lend physical description. Men and women differ variously but solidly, and so it at least gives you a context clue of how the person appears or comes to be. But it can get excessive. I mean, there was a whole debate last year in France about whether COVID is masculine or feminine. It’s nonsensical and arbitrary.
One could argue there could be a poetry to it, grammatical gender, but that just isn’t always so. As for a human like you, from what I can tell, you are female, but that needn’t color everything about you. But I do sometimes have mixed feelings about obscuring the physical appearance & general presence of, say, a nonbinary friend of mine by saying they; sometimes I’ll say AFAB nonbinary or AMAB nonbinary. But it could cause fire.
So I have to negotiate. Gender in its societal sense is an imposition on people I’ll admit. It does grant color to how we get to know people though. But there should be space to live without it. And after all, “they” can also color someone in one’s mind, as androgynous, or as a certain type of person. So there’s definitely room for it.
@@gillianomotoso328 i was just talking abt my own personal experience and honestly why do you talk like that lmao😭
@@jannecapelle_art Sorry. I’d just woken up when I wrote that and my words tend to sound clinical when I’m not trying to sound casual. Especially since I was coming out of a discussion about “teleological sex”. I was basically saying that gender has its place and can be useful but can also be hurtful. Happy Holidays.
@@jannecapelle_art It’s interesting though, if you try to be too precise with language you become cold and actually a bit inscrutable. It’s a balancing act.
“Not the kind their husbands dm me about” left me crying😂
When you said "the biological sex they are DMIng you about " that was so true and funny. Found you through reddit. Love the video. You are awesome.
hell yes i am themming it up all the time.
on a more serious note, specifically i am always in awe & wonder @ trans women who embrace & embody so fully an identity that always fit me poorly. i loved being a little girl and i am so glad that i get to kind of pass on the identity to people who love being a woman more than i ever could.
I kind of love that notion of gender being like pokemon cards or smth, trading one you don't like for a different one. It feels weirdly wholesome.
Another silly thing it makes me think of is like...there being conservation of gender as a physical law of nature -- that gender can be neither created nor destroyed, only change its form.
I feel the same way! I couldn't find the words for it for a long time, but you really hit the proverbial nail on the head! I loved being a little kid, I loved being treated the way I was, and it was only as I got older that the way I was still being treated began to grow uncomfortable, as I became aware of the concept of social gender, and how I was percieved.
I sometimes question if I would feel the same way about my gender as I do in this realm if I'd been born Assigned Male At Birth, or in a world without social gender expectations, but that's purely philosophical pondering, and there's nothing I can do to explore those avenues to their fullest extent.
Well said!
Wow, you think heavy make-uo and fake tits make them more of a woman than a real woman? These men cause serious harm to real women, obviously. Their act is NOT what a real woman is. You area woman regardless.of make-up,.size, clothes. You are a woman without hormone blockers and surgeries. You are capable of things NONE of the transwomen/transvestites will ever be capable of. So sad ao many girls feel uncomfortqble because of some men put on a show because of a dysphoria.
@@richardkovacs2006 ok
Often when you point out people who don't produce gametes anymore, or never did, they will start talking in this vague teleological way about what gametes your body was "designed" to produce. They are literally promoting an Aristotlean view of biology and think they are the peak of science. It's maddening
They really tell on themselves with this one!
Yeah these bigots straight up talk like 18th century race scientists and expect everyone to take them seriously. It's scary that a lot of people do
@@guy-sl3kr Sex realism is just race realism.
It's literally the pathways that produce the gametes. Not the gametes themselves that determine biological sex
@@pythonjava6228 Why? Wouldn't the current biological state of a body be more relevant that the way the body developped?
*I can't decide to stop being gendered, the world wouldn't listen.* this is literally my experience with gender. I'm agender, a gender label to express my lack of gender, and while the agender experience varies, for me, it means I really identify with any pronouns or even a name. If I could, I would have either of those things, but modern society doesn't allow that, even though this is literally what the terfs want lmao. Even some trans people, like my sibling, don't accept this or think it's valid.
That's probably because how you see yourself doesn't change any part of objective reality for anyone else. Your gender identity is for you, and it shouldn't matter if everyone else is buying it or not.
Amazing video - thank you. Can I add that the ability to get pregnant *can* affect people in job interviews, if the interviewer is made aware of someone's bodily capacities, they may be discriminate against the person capable of becoming pregnant and not give them the job.
The idea that a woman is only a temp worker who will inevitably marry a man, become pregnant, and fall out of the workforce, and is therefore a risky hire is still alarmingly common
To those that don't think gender is real and just want to focus on sex: Okay, if you think sex is all biological with no social implications, then stop the harassment, violence and bullying of those who don't fit gender roles. Allow people to wear what they want and change their bodies to what makes them feel more comfortable. Allow people to apply for the careers they want and be attracted to any other consenting adult. If we can't win you over on the pronouns thing, at least don't be a discriminatory bully.
A battle of "comforts". They are uncomfortable, that's why they bully. You make them uncomfortable and don't care about that, so they will make you uncomfortable and not care about you. How are people confused by this. Society doesn't just change because you want it to or even know it should. You have to convince it it wants to change itself to make real changes, which is how you win any debate or engage in meaningful conversation, so like is this a social intelligence problem?
@@LadyVandMrT It is tiring having your very existence politicized and discriminated against is all. I'm not I'm not implying that people aren't out there making good arguments for trans rights. There are a lot of debates and things are changing. Are you trying to say that people who believe in trans and gender non conforming rights have bad arguments or something? Because the science is on our side and we have good arguments, but that doesn't mean every single trans person wants to be the one to engage in a debate or is a scholar about who they are. They just want to exist. But there are professionals out there discussing the issue and bringing awareness. Anyway, I don't see your point.
To give you an analogy, do you expect every black person to fully understand racism and discrimination and be prepared to battle for their own existence every single day? No, that's wrong. Minorities may have to do that at times, but they shouldn't have to, it's not the kind of society I want to live in. That's why we have to stand up and protect them. Be the change you want to see in the world. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Hello! I really appreciate you saying chromosomes and gametes don't matter because they're invisible, as opposed to what people often say "because intersex people". I am intersex and it often bothers me when trans people use intersex people to dunk on terfs. The idea that they don't matter because they're invisible is much better, it applies to everyone, regardless of whether they're intersex or not. Thank you for not using intersex at all in this argument!
So we cannot bring up the issue. They think it's binary even when our sex isn't binary
"I read one sentence of Gender Trouble and enter a fugue state"
I lost it at this. I keep reading the damned thing though because the 5% I do understand makes a lot of sense lmao
"Eventually you can’t help but figure out that, while gender is a construct, so is a traffic light, and if you ignore either of them, you get hit by cars. Which, also, are constructs."
from Nevada, by Imogen Binnie
Oh my God, I probably unconsciously stole my bit about traffic laws from the time I read Nevada 5 years ago… Didn’t realize this was in there!
@@hyawill8944 If I’m not female why are you being blatantly misogynistic right now lol
@@hyawill8944 no there's no difference between "green light means you may go" and "planet is an astronomical body orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, is not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and - according to the International Astronomical Union but not all planetary scientists - has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals."
@@ambientjohnny i could not ignore that you're being kind of a snarky jerk right now and insult you, but that would be considered "rude". Same principle. Yeah, we know we weren't assigned the right sex and most of us developed the wrong secondary sex characteristics n whatnot. Lots of us work on fixing it, we are uncomfortable with it, it's a sore subject. We don't like you saying that our biology doesn't match our genders because it's a rude thing to say, we already know and that's why a lot of us transition. it's not a gotcha moment, you're just being intentionally hurtful. Plus, spreading that idea infringes on our ability to get healthcare and increases discrimination, so it's beyond rude and actively harmful at that point
@@ambientjohnny Yeah, its assigned based on observations. Observations that were made within reason at the time but do not predict the future and thus no longer apply. They said I was one thing, They did their best, but the thing they told me I was, what they assigned me, was wrong. Also, brains are physical, right? Similarities in brain anatomy have been found between trans people and the gender they identify with. And hormones are physical, right? Hormones change things in your body, your biology, and that can reduce dysphoria. Being trans is also a physical condition.
I'm legitimately curious, why are you a jerk on the internet but you wouldn't be in real life? That good ol' anonymity that allows you to exit the realm of politeness? Well if this is what you say when you don't have to be nice, I don't think I'd much care to be in your presence in real life at all. I'd rather not try to befriend people who disagree with my existence, thanks. But, regardless of how snarky and rude you are about it, I would still like to discuss this here, since I'm hoping I might get you to see a little bit of different perspective.
I would say that a lot of the problems occurring here are actually due to people's inability to accept others (acceptance does not include hostile people, as that creates a paradox and an unaccepting place). For instance, your struggle with accepting that trans people's true selves are the gender they identify as has led to what I will hope is an honest misunderstanding, and this misunderstanding has led to you saying hurtful things that may inspire others and sow more division.
Psychological help doesn't really work in these scenarios, it is ineffective and the "transness" persists, because guess what its an inherent characteristic, much like being gay. If you actually want to help trans people, the route that has been shown to work is acceptance, which brings down the suicide rate sharply and leads to more fulfilling lives. Transition often also helps, so advocating for accessible health care for trans people would also help them.
I am sorry you've suffered through a lot of trauma, no one should have to go through that. I am glad you were able to grow and work through it, that is legitimately admirable. I really do want you to understand that trans people are in the same boat, or at least a wildly similar one. They are subject to harassment, discrimination, and abuse, or even death. Trans people often have psychological trauma from the way society treats them, and I know it may be unknowingly, but by denying the legitimacy of trans peoples identities and advocating against transition, you are actively contributing to this. I say this not to insult you or logically corner you, but in the hopes that you realize how damaging your words can be, and possibly even work to rectify your actions.
I would also like to point out that trans people do TONS of self development. A lot of introspection is needed to understand yourself enough to know that you aren't the gender everyone says you are. It takes long hours of thinking, dread for what people will say, doubt that you've got it wrong, trying things out, thinking again, all smattered with moments of utter joy when someone finally manages to gender you correctly, or you get to wear that piece of clothing that helps you feel more like yourself. Then, it might take months or years of therapy to understand your identity, confirm things, and/or bounce thoughts off someone else, then months of shaping up so you can make sure your surgery is the best it can be, not to mention waiting ages for the surgery itself. Its a lot of work, and a lot of time, and that whole time the brain is in overdrive, actualizing itself in a few-several years when many cis people take a life time. Because its necessary. Because otherwise they would be trapped in their own discomfort, suffering often, until they die (which is often and unfortunately much earlier than cis people, due basically solely to societal unacceptance).
Trans people really do want to be themselves, but everyone expects "themselves" to be what society told them they were. If you want to encourage a trans person to be themselves, accept them as the person they are, and accept that their gender is the one they identify with. Trans people's peace comes when they have the body and support they need to live the lives they want. We've already gone through the journey of inner peace and self actualization that you advocate for (i agree with it, i think everyone should look within themselves and find a way to love themselves, find inner peace as you put it). Theyve found themselves and through this actualization, found out it doesn't match the way they currently are. It takes tremendous inner strength to come out even when people claim you are wrong and that your identity is wrong, and even more sureity and inner strength to be themselves despite the momentous backlash. They already possess this inner strength because of their introspection and deep self exploration, so it would be best to encourage their journey and accept them if introspection and inner peace and strength are you goals/values. It would also be more peaceful for them if you stopped spreading the idea that they are wrong about their gender identity and need psychological help (They need to see a psychiatrist to transition anyway, if they needed psychological help the psychiatrists would say so). Essentially, kindness and respect towards trans people and their identities would encourage the things that you want. Please remember that trans people are human beings, who in many cases are in a similar boat to you, and treat them as they would like to be treated =)
loved this, you say so eloquently and hilariously stuff that's been rattling disorganised around my noggin for a while. there's something so incredibly satisfying about taking the definition of sex from the TERF's own foundational text and breaking down that it actually is quite fuzzy and malleable. keep being awesome ✨
@@kimmmimemwest1895 did you... watch the video?
@@kimmmimemwest1895 I think we all knew that? (Excluding Intersex ppl, for this arguments purpose)
Where talking about gender, come back when you know what it is.
@@kimmmimemwest1895 yet it ends up being so malleable or inconsequential irl
@@kimmmimemwest1895 according to western society as a whole. It doesn't take much to show that biological sex is not the monolithic barrier it once was. And in modern times, it's becoming less relevant.
Not to mention as stated in the video, defining sex in the first place is a hard thing to do, as by limiting the criteria to sex assigned at birth, you also limit its relevancy to society
@@kimmmimemwest1895 so are women who don't have children unimportant?
5:46 I love it when Ben flubs a line and either no one cares enough to reshoot it or just somehow didn't notice. Remember when he claimed that there were people saying that you're gay if you *don't* want to sleep with trans women? lol.
He makes so little sense that his editors can't tell what's a flub.
I love it! Thank you for these insights! I’m so tired of trans and enby people being a debate. Why is our existence so polarized and why must so many people have opinions on it? We exist! End of story! We are NOT up for debate!
@@johnc3525 You mean when we started telling people who we are and asking to be respected instead of forcing ourselves to try to fit into the boxes society made for us and shoved us into? So, again, your issue is with us existing as we are and asking to be addressed for who we are rather than who you think we should be.
as someone doing an msc who litchrally just finished an essay on the history of sexual difference/how we categorize it I cannot WAIT for this
Thank you! Hope you dig it!
yo is there anywhere i can read your essay?? sounds vary interesting
Hi! The OP is probably more qualified than me but Making Sex by Thomas Laqueur is really interesting IMHO.
Omg where can i find this?
@@jungmanriver Please don't take this the wrong way but:
1) This could be their third of fourth language, in which case they're very smart for writing in it at all.
2) This honestly seems like a joke spelling.
3) Let's not equate intelligence and spelling. I never make mistakes and my head is the hollow nest of a dancing carnival monkey.
HIIIIIIIIIII LILYYYYYYYYYYYY i love your jacket sm- also i love what you said at the beginning, i saw a tiktok about it and i can show you sometime :) you're such an incredible sister and im so proud of how far you've come! i tell all my friends about you and THEY. LOVE. YOUR. CHANNEL. we talk about it at lunch and it starts a lot of interesting convos :) i love you so much and i always will.
I havent even finished this vid yet but i love it-
I MISS UUUUUUUUUUU
I'm AFAB, went through female puberty, and I have wide shoulders (the only shirts that fit me, are boys/men's, or else the sleeves get ripped), and I have a lower voice and prefer singing tenor. I used to be insecure about it, then I questioned my gender and realized that I don't have a deeply felt sense of gender, and since I graduated high school, I've been focusing more on what works for me, without worrying what people think of me. I do prefer more neutral presentation, but the concept of gender is interesting, and confusing, yet important, as that's such a big way of how people see others.
terfs: simple biology!
lily: ✨ advanced biology ✨
@@ambientjohnny Nuance. Common edge cases. Uncommon genetic positioning. Neurology. Psychiatry. Take your pick.
@@こなた-m1o they do, however, change just about everything else.
god i have so many thoughts!!! but first of all: what an excellent video, you've done it again! Mainstreaming this conversation about sex is I think really really important and your arguments are so clear and well reasoned. I really hope this fuels some good discussion in this area, because often I feel like there is this odd hesitancy to discuss what's being discussed when terfs(and other transphobes) talk about biological sex, as if trans people will always be the losers in this arena(which is silly but I also sympathize with).
Something I find striking in these sex vs gender discussions is how.. english speaking they are, I guess. In my language, there isn't a distinction like that. There's just one word, and it's always made me view the rethorical sex/gender split with a bit of distrust/suspicion for that reason ngl haha it's the same thing! it's just one thing!! But the internet and most easily accessible media is in english, so we get sex/gender split discourse foisted upon us
Anyway, if anyone is reading these comments and interested in knowing more sexual differences here's some stuff I find interesting:
The definition of biological sex varies across disciplines and also history, it's a very use-based system, and in biology gamete definition is generally used because dividing things into male/female using our human ideas thereof is actually really hard! Many animals have three or four sexes(see: Bees and Ruffs) and once we get to a microscopic level you might see over ten different types of gametes in one species since it allows reproduction between more individuals than the two-gamete system. It's a wild world out there.
The chromosomal definition of sexual difference is even more recent than their discovery, and the chromosomal-endocrinological theory of sexual determination in the fetus was widely debated throughout the start of the 20th century, only winnning out in the 1920s. Notably, we have trans people(ahistorical term, but for ease of writing) medically transitioning before then, which I think it pretty cool.
It's really interesting that the idea of sex as a binary is also something still debated in the literature. While not much to do with trans people, and a bit outdated now, Fausto-Sterling's proposal of five sexes is an interesting place to start, as is looking into intersex history.
This is a super interesting topic and this video was very good!! thank you!! sorry for rambling in your comment section but at least it'll up engagement lol
We should really look into the human genome classification again, just to make sure that one of the numbered chromosomes might actually need a letter.
@@markh.876 It seems w/ mammals, biologists are largely in agreement that there are two, but I'm happy to be corrected on this point if there's evidence to the contrary.
@@markh.876 the person who wrote that comment literally provided the example of bees and ruffs in the next line. And i can tell you there are others like clam shrimp and frogs. There is also an all female species of lizard, so there's a wide variety of numbers of sexes in the animal kingdom (which we are a part of) and it's largely a by species basis. So, you no longer need to doubt it, there is a precedent for a lot of different numbers of sexes within animal species
@@emileconstance5851 As far as i know you're right, but there are cases of things like lions who were supposedly female developing male biological features like manes. That doesn't really disprove your point, but it is interesting and i figured you might want to hear it, since it sounds like you want to learn =)
@@_Lyricris_ Appreciate it, thanks for pointing that out!
every once in awhile i watch a video essay that just makes me so hype in support the whole time, this is one of those
find it weird to see the complete mesh of gender and gender roles. you can be a woman, be born a male, and not follow "female gender roles"... and still be binary
Another great thing to add onto this is that chromosomal sex is surprisingly not binary. Intersexual cases are a lot more common than they would be if they were simply "the exception". Many of these chromosomal differences are labeled disorders, though with the number of people diagnosed yearly (as well as the vast number of people who never get diagnosed and have no idea they are not male or female chromosomally), these numbers seem too large to ignore, but they are ignored. Ignored by government, society as a whole, and it's crazy to me.
@Kel-Tec KSG Apologies if it came off that way, even 1-5% of people diagnosed is an extreme number of people out of 7.7 billion, especially when you realize that there are *many* people undiagnosed that have no idea they're even chromosomally not male or female. The numbers aren't extreme to the extent of 50/50 like our societal ideas of binary sex tend to be, but they are large enough to not be disorders as they're classified as currently, at least to me
@catch22 many people don't find out until we're older, because it's not every day you get your blood tested for your chromosomes. Hell, some people have ovaries but no v@g!n@l opening and dont realize that's not normal until many years later
"Why should exclusion be our starting point?"
Yes! Subscribed. Fantastic video
When Lily was like "Now do TERFs have any credibility" I was like "WAIT!!! CRAP!!! WRONG VIDEO!!! WRONG PLACE!!! SHAPIRO GOT ME!!! I GOTTA RUN!!!"
Then I heard "No" and then all became ok.
As a cis woman, I don't know why I'm a woman, so I'll trust you guys on this one 😂
as a cis man, same.
You trust Males to tell you what a woman is?
Everyone feels like that. No one "knows" or "feels" what sex they are, they just are that sex. No one is assigned a sex at birth the doctor observes what sex you are and records it. Feminists and women who are concerned about this virtue signalers such as this girl, are worried about the number of rapes that are happening in women prisons, for instance. 200 years ago a woman called Elizabeth Fry fought to make prisons single sex because women were being assaulted at an alarming rate. Now, in the UK, 60% of trans women in women's prisons are on the sex offenders register and women have been raped and in the US made pregnant via coertion by male bodied people claiming to be women to escape male prison conditions. This is just one result of self identity which is the main thing so-called TERFS are trying to prevent. We want to protect women's safe spaces is all.
@@ambientjohnny just because there are people who identify within certain degrees of femininity, doesn't mean women stop existing, doesn't mean women's right shouldn't be taken seriously.
i love listening to your voice. its just so easy to listen to, if that makes sense. and i love how you structured this video too, its a good flow that keeps may adhd brain fully engaged!
I can't really see anyone pointing this out and I'm surprised you didn't mention it but I feel it's also really important to point out that EVEN IF we were to only look at chromosomes it would not be the smoking gun they think it is. Not only because you can't know without a test, but also because CHROMOSOMES ARE WAY MORE COMPLICATED than the simple binary and what sex characteristics develop and when is way more complicated than XX equals vagina and XY equals penis.
But also shouts to not having to engage at that level and spending your time dismantling their arguments per se, but critically examining how they're taken up discursively.
Yeah the fact that two women this year with XY chromosomes got pregnant and gave birth naturally. Sort of throws a wrench into the arguments that chromosomes = sex.....let alone gender.
@@kimmmimemwest1895 you 11 month old troll accounts are hilarious
@@kimmmimemwest1895 we don't buy and breed humans in slavery nor do we control those slave's reproduction, so the dog analogy falls short.
@@kimmmimemwest1895 shut up lol
Dude if u arent a troll, how have you gone xx years living on this planet and not realized there is a BIG Difference between other animals and humans. Like a LOT. We even have laws about how to treat us that are different! HUMAN rights! Because we have more complex thoughts. No of course we dont care about an animals gender, we cant ask them and if we could most if not all dont have the brain capacity for it. Humans can have complex thoughts. They can think about big things like who they are and what it means to have a certain genital, hormone balance, gametes, chromosomes, etc. And what its like to be told that you are in a group or not. We can question and consider these things. I cant believe Im telling some fucker that humans have bigger brains that animals jfc. I try not to be mean but society has failed u.
I think what I am coming to realize is that the view I have of sex and gender is held by a very small minority of people. And the idea that the majority of people have is so foreign and strange to me that I cannot and may never understand it. To me, defining a man or woman is purely physical. The fact that a person can look at even just a picture of a human being and make an assumption of whether they are a man or woman seems to me to make this obvious. If it were dependent on likes, dislikes, behaviours, thought processes, anything social like that then we wouldn't be able to do that. I identify as a woman because I was identified as one at birth and have developed the physical characteristics of a woman since then. No other reason. And to me, it does not define me in any other sense. And if someone else is making assumptions about me based on that alone, that's their problem and I feel no compulsion to match those stereotypes or not. I also realize assumptions will be made because we're human and that's how our brains work; we identify subsets of people and associate ideas about them dependant on what we generally experience or see from those groups of people. But that doesn't mean assumptions are correct and if you get to know someone and they are different from how you assume, that's just normal. Almost no one is going to fit all the stereotypes. I cannot understand then what people mean when they say they have a gender identity or a sense of self that includes a gender. There is no correct way to be a gender, so there is no correct way to feel in order to be valid as a given gender or not. Now maybe some people would call that idea being agender or non-binary or genderqueer or whatever... but I don't honestly want to identify myself that way, because to me this gives the idea of gender too much importance. To me, I'm a woman because I look like one... and any other attribute people associate with me because of that isn't going to change if I call myself something else, so what difference does it make? I would much prefer to just treat all people as people and recognize that no matter what assumptions your brain jumps to based on their appearance, just keep an open mind and change your perceptions of people as you get to know them. Is that so hard for people?
Totally agree!
This is honestly *exactly* how I feel. Thank you for writing this down, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts better if I tried. The only thing is, I don't want to invalidate the experience of people who suffer from gender dysphoria, and I want them to have access to things that are proven to work in alleviating it. I do, however, have a theory that for many people, placing too much importance on gender only makes it worse. And I even dare to assume that there _might_ (possibly, maybe, maybe not) be a way for most people to reach a point where their gender/sex doesn't define the way they see themselves, and if that assumption is correct, it could help those people suffer much less. I realize that many would find my ideas transphobic, but how can anyone claim that I hate trans people when I'm actually theorizing about things that could potentially make their lives better by helping them get rid of dysphoria, just in a different way? I have a lot of trans people in my life whom I love and cherish dearly, and I have to stay silent about my thoughts with them because it would break my heart to be seen as an enemy by them... I'm glad I could at least talk about it here, maybe someday I will find the courage and confidence to voice my honest thoughts openly.
I would mostly agree with this except it ignores people like me who are visually perceived as a woman but experience extreme distress at that fact and at being called a woman. This distress can't be fixed by methods other than transition ( many many many studies show this). Maybe someday we will move beyond the point of gendering people so much that dysphoria stops existing but at this point tran health care saves lifes and referring to people by their preferred pronouns safes lives.
@@erika_the_jinni I dont find it transphobic to say that we might be able to move beyond gender some day. But I dont think we can, even if I was on a deserted island completely alone, looking at my body would make me want to rip the world apart and cry and scream.
As a retired ob-gyn I would like to point out that when assigning sec in the delivery room I almost never had chromosomal or more importantly genetic data (see complete androgen insensitivity and sry translocations)but went on the best estimate of what the infant looked like “down below”
What do they do if you can't tell? You are saying a guess is made? Are surgeries still being done on babies?
@@monicadaniels784 These days it is better to just admit uncertainty and get the available chromosome studies before making the call. Surgery to correct genital malformations are rarely done even in childhood rather wait until adolescence unless urologic function is also compromised. The most extreme examples are not detected until after puberty such as complete androgen insensitivity where we typically make the diagnosis when anormal appearing young female does not undergo pubertal changes. Exam then shows a shortened vagina and no cervix or uterus. Then the question is discussing the fact that someone’s daughter is genetically male. The best plan is wait in all cases to do any surgery and listen to the child as well as the parents but make all aware of the chromosomal and genetic facts and then the surgical and hormonal options
@@roberthampton2820 I'm so glad they have stopped doing surgeries on intersex babies.I have had two intersex friends who had a surgeon 'fix' them up to be male, including surgery, only to have them go through an emotional hell until they transitioned. Thankfully, they are happy finally. Thank you for responding.
I remember having a nagging thought as a kid, before I knew what a TERF was, we had other more problematic names for that type of 'feminist' of which I identified my mother as pretty early, even self identified strait out of high school as, they where not looking for equality, they where looking to take the power structures for them selves. I remember wondering what effect being a 'male child' of these women who seemed to firmly believe that the mere possession of a penis at any point in ones life made them a predater but also inept , I still hurt for those children, but very recently as a 'cis' woman (maybe? its under consideration at this point) myself I realized there's a question I needed to be asking myself. What effects does being a 'female child' suffer growing up with that belief. Looking back I have had more troubles in relationships with both men and women that boil down to this notion nagging in the background, even as I work to deconstruct it, its there. It's even reared itself in the way I interact with my trans friends, I have much more ease using correct pronouns with women than men, my mind has a hard time understanding why someone would 'choose' to be a man (I know its not a choice) I am lucky to have forgiving friends, and I correct EVERY time, never putting it off, it is important, but theses types of feminist damage the children they raise, all of them.
I totally get you, my mother was never a TERF, but has her more radical streak, which means evety now and then she calls men just "perpetrators". And she has this idea, that men in power will have a tendency to be abusive.
I was allways a little bit wary in the presents of men.
But considering, that all women I met since then, that had some or another experience with sexual assault, I wonder if this distrist is not actually kinda necessary in a society, that fosters toxic men on a rate that makes it an inevitability to meet them in your life.
I have to say though: my mother is rethinking her positions, since I started to present her studies on the effectvof Testosteron on brains, the effect of socialisation compared to hormones, studies on childabuse and sexual abuse etc
We both still agree, that there is a problem with how men (on average) behave. Especcially towards women, but she starts to see, that this is not a feature of male biology, and that things are changing.
@@blacktigerpaw1 what are you talking about? Who says we should not hold penis havers accountable?
Everybody should be held accountable for what they do... Or not do...
What makes you think anybody only cares when it affects transwomen? This is a pretty scewed view on the world.
@@blacktigerpaw1 no one is converting anything up, predators exist in every group, but the numbers don't lie, statistically trans people don't represent a particularly increased risk over any other group so there is no reason to reject them from spaces, but marginalized groups are statistically more likely to be predated against so they should have all the protections we can offer. You've heard about certain types of predators because they make better news, not because they are particularly more common .
@@blacktigerpaw1 transwomen crimes? What are you talking about? Being naked in a womens changing room? This is not a crime for a woman, independent how her genitals look like.
The obsession with genitals of other people that bigots have absolutly escapes me. What do you think happens to anyone if they see a penis.... Not even an erect one... Just a penis....
In WI Spa, no crime was done. There only was a sensitive snow flake throwing a temper tantrum because they saw a penis.
We DO address toxic masculinity and the problems that come with it.
But denying a transwoman protection AND validation in women spaces just because some bigot is afraid of penisses is not an ethical option. Because no one gets hurt by seeing a penis, but transwomen get hurt by being denied access to womens spaces.
And please.... Do not equate media reports with what transpeople or their allies say on a topic. They are not the same.
BTW food for thought: since the right wing started to push the whole bathroom issue on which you bigots jump so readily to defend patrichal structures in the name of feminism, those who got hurt were mostly cis-women, that presented less feminine, they suddenly got attacked when they went to the bath room because of course no one checks the genitals, People judge on how they think a woman looks like... And everyone that does not fit, because they are to large, have to small tits, have short hair, wear baggy cloths etc. has to fear now getting visciously attacked by bigots if they want to use a public bathroom for women.
Well, done standing up for women's rights....
And a second thought: do you really think, that a rapist will ever be stopped by a sign that reads "for women". Do you really think, that rapists dress up as women to attack women? Because this has not happened outside of movies and books. Its a fiction. I lie spun by bigots to harm people that refuse to conform to the patriarchal gender structure, especcially when they are penis havers, because if you want to subjugate half of the human species based on their genitals, you have to demonize everyone who dares to question the binary hirarchical order of things.
You made yourself a willing tool of oppression by the patriarchy against the very same people you claim to fight for.
@@blacktigerpaw1 I sided with the petson, that, to my information, did nothing wrong, that was dragged into the public eye for just one reason: a bigot saw her penis and threw a hissy fit.
Undressing in a dressing room is not a crime. This is all this transwoman did. She undressed in a changing room for women, in a business that is transinclusive. Claiming that this is somehow something bad, unethical or criminal is assinine.
So the bigot was a poc... So what? Poc can be assholes, too. I will allways side with the person, that just exists against the person that claims to be hurt by the other persons existance.
You sound exactly like the bigots in the 60s that whined about black people sitting on their seats and how it made them feel violated to have to sit so close to a POC, and that this is a crime against them.
You know there is an easy solution if you don't feel like using a dressing room with a transwoman: don't frequent businesses that are transinclusive.
How can I possibly be expected recover from the absolute SICK burn of “assigned online at birth” . Omggg. I’ve been ROASTED.
This is so excellent. I've been looking for a video just like this, which picks apart and really engages with these TERF arguments. Not just dismissing them out of hand, but actually talking it through and countering them with logic and discussion. Thank you.
Thank you!
@@kg356 I kinda see where your going at, but in my opinion, it's not so much as the rejection of birth sex. I'm Cis, so if any Trans person may find my words to be a bit jarring, please tell me, I don't want to be purposefully offensive.
Transness has been tied to not only gender, but biology, but in the way of the brain. There are studies that show that the trans brain is different that the brain of the sex they are, and moreover aligns to the opposite sex. What I mean is not the brain, as in thoughts, ideologies, yadda yadda. I mean as in the actual physical brain, how certain parts of the brain are shaped and built, which can surface AS thoughts.
Let's be honest, gender makes no sense, not in the sense that "WhAt thESe LiBERals ARE TrYIn tO Do-" kinda way, but more that we as a society have made certain clothes, personality, jobs, and behaviors tied to a certain sex, which makes the concept of gender, and when people of a certain sex break out of this "gender binary", they are seen as more like the opposite sex. These can surface in a cis man wearing a dress and being called "woman", "girly", "feminine.
I don't think it's rejecting the sex at birth, it's rejecting the gender binary that comes with it. Although there is the can of worms that gender expression does not equal gender identity, but that's a whole can of worms I don't think we're ready for.
@@kg356 the TERF view on sex is clearly human constructed. In nature, animals with intersex conditions which lead to infertility are treated like "not sexed" individuals by the others, not like "one or the other". There is no strict binary sex system for each and every individual in nature. Such is only with making arbitrary assumtions, what nature doesn't do.
@@kg356 I see where you're going at, but I don't necessarily believe that it's "making up new genders". I think it's to say that gender itself is not a rigid concept, and moreso goes on about the absence of gender.
I don't know how to explain the absence of gender, but I think it can be seen in how we have a regid concept for the two ends "man" and "woman", and then the spectrum that is "nonbinary". It's like 2 pieces of land with a sea in between.
Even without the human brain theory, you kinda have to have a way to explain why all these people are so unhappy with their gender, while not falling into gender role stereotypes. When I was a kid, I always wished to be a boy, but it wasn't because I "felt" like a boy, it was because I idealized the stereotypes that went with being "a boy".
In addition, I think that the reason people "make up" new genders, it's to have some connection you can make with how you feel about gender. I'm not sure about "horse gender", but I know that there are other black people that feel such a connection to their blackness that they've made a connection to it and their gender. I think they've pitched the term gendernoir. Gender is moreover just a connection. How connected do you feel with the (non stereotypical) concept of a women, how connected do you feel with the concept of a man, or how absent that connection is.
It all honesty, I don't think we need to label this connection. Just using whatever pronouns you want (as long as its not a harmful concept) is probably good enough. Adding labels to both sexuality and gender I think is harmful, but if people need it, then so be it. (Sorry if this isn't structured well)
What it means to be something is honestly up to the person. If you feel a connection to the word "woman" and you would rather be a woman that any other concept of gender than go for it. We all assign value to these words. Just because they have value to you doesn't mean it has the same value to you. It's like have a penny. For some people it's just some useless copper. For others, that penny could be the deciding factor of getting you food, water, shelter, anything you need/want. It doesn't make any of these less/more important
congrats on your nebula success. this is a lovely video. pulling apart inconsistencies in terf ideology that it saddens me aren’t more obvious to the well meaning women i know that get fooled by it.
Holy shit new lily alexandre but it's dropping at 3am.
Haha, sorry!!
@@lily_lxndr it's fine lol
As a trans man I often feel like giving up what I've worked so hard for because people who would rather see my beginning than who I am now. Trans man are devalued and emasculated. We're seen as "silly girls" and we aren't even viscously attached like trans women are. I'm a metalhead and a punk and it shows so people don't often Mess with me but I have friends who aren't get shit all the time and its pathetic. People would rather pick on people who just want to live their life instead of challenging someone obviously ready for an argument.
As a trans guy I really don’t think gender neutral language like “people with uteruses” is right it does feel objectifying and trans people are a minority so it’s just not necessary to include them when the 99% of people with uteruses are women we should just refer to them as that you can call yourself a person with a uterus but I don’t think it’s right to use it as a term for everyone it doesn’t offend me and if it offends you you’re just soft and why people don’t take the trans community seriously
If there is no such thing as sex then there's no such thing as sexuality either but yall not ready for that convo
unfathomably based
Perfectly willing to have that convo, personally my attraction is much about the vibes of the person and their general appearance than that the instant I see someone I am attracted to I consiously think about their genitals, for me the experience is more in the realm of gender.
@@tamarabrugara People have sex with each other, not gender with each other. Its not even about "thE firSt Thing yOU thInK abOUt wheN YoU liKe someonE is TheiR GeniTalS??" its about having a sexuality and (rightfully) presuming or assuming that the carpet should match the drapes if you catch my drift. Again you give all this purple prose about how its about the person and you would never think about their genitals right away, which I dont really believe, but whatever. But at the end of the day sexuality is rooted in *sex* .... that's kinda why sex is the root word in... sexuality. In online spaces ive personally seen trans activists trying to gaslight people about their own sexualities. Was on a gay subreddit a while ago and someone made a post asking if wed sleep with a trans men. Overwhelming majority said no. There was a lack of mean comments though the poll results were very.... stark, to say the least. The OP made an edit in the comments calling us transphobes. Another example I have was discussing trans rights in an AP Social Studies course I took some time ago. We had a hardcore lib girl, as every humanities class does. Ill never forget the moment she asked me, the only gay man in class, if Id sleep with a trans man who still had a vagina, and I said no. No insults or rant, just a simple flat no. She gave me the dirtiest, meanest glare. If specific genitalia dont belong to any sex and we're all just having gender with each other, then sexuality no longet exists. Put it this way: it is now the new wave for Trans activists to call straight men fascists/transphobes/bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women. By that same logic, are gay men hateful misogynists for not wanting to sleep with women? See how absurd the logic is? And its such a hoot and holler because trans people are such a miniscule part of the population. I dont understand why 98% of people have to destroy gender and re-conceptualize sexuality just to appease the 2%. Its weird and people are getting fed the hell up.
@@gamer1X12 why is it all these arguments revolve around prescriptivism and language tricks and strawpoles of online spaces ? Like I am lesbian if you were to have the same poll in r/actuallesbians that would not be the result, there are also actual studies on genital preferences that show they matter far less for certain sexualities.
Also , you got a... glare ? Oh dear poor thing someone squinted their eyes.
Nobody said there's no such thing as sex. ofc sex is real, why do you think ppl physically transition? But because it exists doesn't mean gender doesn't
Lily has very easily become my favourite RUclipsr covering LGBTQ+ content
This is the first time I'm hearing the eunuch argument and I was not ready for how ridiculous it is.
I love that Ben is so upset that he's stumbling over his words: "cervically screened"🤣
I'm so excited to hear you're coming to Nebula! RUclips ads are the worst, especially in December and January.
Why don't we see more trans-*inclusionary* radical feminists? It would be way easier to be one since it's less work, it lets more people into radical feminism (which to a radical feminist should be a good thing), and it makes more logical sense given what is being fought.
They’re totally a thing, going back to the roots of radical feminism! My next video talks about a few of them.
Because transgenderism and feminism are at odds. There are loads of good videos about it if you leave the echo chamber. Many of these "TERFs" make good points and aren't hateful at all, like Helen Joyce. Please just try exposing yourself to words stated by actual women instead of dismissing anyone with a different world view as hateful automatically. Labeling a woman to dismiss her and ignore her. Where have we seen that before?
This video essay was incredibly interesting, and brought to the forefront a lot of issues in a humorous yet still deeply introspective way. Thanks for sharing it.
since english is not my first lenguaje, I'll wrote my comment in spanish:
En algún momento he estado de acuerdo con varios argumentos terf, ya que nunca fui completamente cerrada ante ninguna ideología. Sin embargo, en algún punto dejé de pensar en este tema de esa forma y progresivamente fui adoptando un punto de vista nuevo, más similar a este, no por haberme informado al respecto sino por experiencia.
Este video fue muy calmado, sencillo de entender y me sirvió para cerrar mis ideas sobre este tema. Ahora siento que definitivamente me identifico con esta forma de pensar y que ahora sí tengo las palabras adecuadas para expresarlo.
In summary, great video, it was very useful and easy to watch :]
"Terfs put a lot of stock in sex, the biological kind not the kind their husbands keep DMing me about"
Only 4 minutes in and already instant like
I don't even know why I like that joke so much but I do thanks
Now to actually watch the video
@@xx-my5vh Trans people aren't the ones trying to put others into boxes based on their sex characteristics, terfs are. And not all trans people have surgery.
@@xx-my5vh Categories are inherently socially constructed. Stop treating "nature" like it's some kind of deity.
@@xx-my5vh All words are social constructions, and by extension, all categories are social constructions. Taxonomies need to be invented, they don't just spawn out of nothing.
@@xx-my5vh °c is a measurement. "Male" and "Female" do not measure any physical phenomena, we already have words for all sex characteristics. You'd only apply those words to them if you wanted to attribute a social connotation.
Despite the pushback from terfs, the fact is, "person with penis/vagina/uterus/XY chromosomes/etc" is indeed the most objective description of a person's sex characteristics, but that wouldn't serve the anti-trans agenda.
@@xx-my5vh And more to the point, if someone tries to change their sex characteristics, and you try to stop them, YOU ARE TRYING TO FORCE THEM INTO A BOX!!! You're trying to keep them in the box they're in currently, to prevent mobility between the boxes. This isn't about "objective facts" anymore, this is about controlling behaviour.
What if, in this argument, we replaced gender affirmation surgery with premarital sex, or being gay, or tattoos, or anything else that conservatives hate and try to police? The person doing the thing is not nearly as obsessed with it as the person going to great lengths to stop them from doing it and/or punish them for it.
official apology merch on pre-sale LMAO you’re incredible
god you're so right and i loved this video. when it popped up in my youtube home page i was so excited, a lot of it was thoughts i vaguely had before, but this put it all into such good perspective and proper language i was so happy watching it! definitely a banger. queen.
this video turned me into a biological woman
thanks
This is such a great video Lily, you keep outdoing yourself
That means a lot! Thank you :)
@@lily_lxndr I hope you're doing fine and taking care of yourself rn.
Don't forget you have lots of people who love and appreciate your content and you as a person even If these are hard times.
@@LenaShrimpSo sweet of you, thank you. Despite some shitty comments I'm doing alright! Def no reason to worry.
A lot of this seems to stem from the fight for what is considered a "woman". Would it makes things easier if we're just more specific about it? Like "cis-woman" and "trans-woman"? This combine sex and gender. One of the biggest issue seems to be this confusion for some people that perceived trans-women claiming to be cis-women.
That specific language can be useful sometimes, but it seems like only trans people and allies are actually in favor of using it. TERFs say things like "Don't call me 'cis'" because they want the word "woman" to mean cis women only.
Yeah I think that's the biggest point that many people miss. Most trans women want to change their sex, but that doesn't mean they ignore it. They don't want to erase womanhood, but instead embrace their own.
I: Wow, I've never thought of it this way
But to answer your question, I'm afraid being "more specific about it" wouldn't help much, unfortunately
There's a very similar situation in the plural community, which your post reminded me of. It's tough to explain briefly, but gonna try:
plural people are people who, for a multitude of possible reasons, have a brain structured in a way that there are multiple distinct identities/personhoods/simply put, _people_ co-existing within, instead of just one. The most common reason for a brain to be(come) structured this way is childhood trauma leading to the development of DID or OSDD. It's not the only possible origin, but many people with DID, much like terfs do with womanhood, sadly believe that they are the only plural people in existence, and any other people who claim to be plural (and _are)_ but without childhood trauma as the origin reason, are either lying, or "appropriating" plurality
At one point, a certain system (collection of individuals within a plural brain) came up with the term "endogenic" to describe their origins, meaning a system who did not originate from trauma, but due to any other reason; and conversely, the term "traumagenic" to describe systems originating from trauma. They did so thinking that making the distinction would alleviate the animosity within the community, but unfortunately, the opposite happened - the "system medicalists" (the "terf equivalent" in the plural community) adopted the use of the labels, _and_ an "endos (as they oh-so-lovingly dubbed us) not welcome" approach at "best", and targeted harrassment raids on endogenic-friendly chatting servers at worst
Those who discriminate against others by not allowing them the claim to an identity, won't change their mind if the title for said identity introduces more nuance 😔
Just to make it clear; most traumagenic systems _don't_ act/think this way; the hostile exclusionary folks are a loud minority
It truly makes me sad and disappointed in words I can't describe of people's just unwillingness to understand and hatred..
Ah this was perfect! I rarely ever see adequate discussions of biological sex
"oh you think being a woman is just about being beautiful and feminine, you think if i thought that i would look like THIS right now?`"
THIS THIS THIS HOLY SHIT FINALLY THANK YOU
If biological sex doesn't exist why do people bother trying to present as the opposite sex? 🤔
Who said biological sex doesn’t exist?
A friend provided me with a really useful breakdown.
I now share it with thee:
Generally speaking, in order to fully discuss this topic, you need to know someone's sex, gender identity, gender expression, alignment, and to a lesser degree, sexual orientation.
Sex can refer to someone's biological sex, commonly referred to as their "assigned at birth" sex, or their sex based on physicality.
Those who surgically transition will have changed their physical sex, without changing their biological sex, so there is a need for a distinction.
As you have pointed out, neither of these are strictly binary. However, they will generally fall into the category of male/female/neuter.
Gender is then a set of behaviors or roles that have come to be associated with the sexes, chiefly masculine (male), feminine (female), indefinite (either), and neutral (neuter).
Gender roles are largely social constructs, and they are enforced through social pressure and expectations. There may be some biological inclinations for certain behaviors, but there there aren't any physical barriers to 'violating' gender roles. Men can be sensitive and nurturing just as much as women can be rugged and stalwart.
It can be difficult to explain the problems with Gender Roles as their influence is subtle and pervasive. People have agency and they can freely choose how they behave at any given moment, so the effect is hard to see.
Gender roles manifest over the scale of a lifetime, by skewing the values we hold, and then allowing us to choose 'freely' based on the skewed values we were given.
As a metaphor, "You decided whether to turn left or right, but the roads were built long before you got here."
Gender Identity is what manifests as a by-product of those instilled values and social pressures. It is the culmination of how you see yourself, your values, and the role you have in society and relationships.
As with sex it generally falls into the binary macro categories of 'masculine' or 'feminine'. However, identity is more complicated, and has a whole host of nuances, which I won't get into here.
Gender Expression is the ways in which you effectively act out your Gender Identity.
There are myriad options here, but this is things like choosing to work for longer hours so you can provide for your family, or choosing to give up your own career so you can stay home and look after the kids.
Expression doesn't come up as much in conversation as it probably should, but this is the part where others get to see your choices and judge you for them. It's the 'camp' gay, or the 'butch' lesbian... but even outside of LGBT, this is where judgements come for stay at home dads, or career women, or asexuals who haven't "found a girl and settled down".
A lot of the toxicity of gender roles comes to bare in the realm of Gender Expression. It isn't just that you have masculine values/identity. It is the performative aspect of -being- masculine, in ways that others can see, and broadcasting your identity in that way.
Which brings us to Gender Alignment. The simplest terms for this are "cis-" (same) and "trans-" (opposed). There are other alignments, such as "fluid" (variable) or "non-binary" (neutral, generally), but those are less common and require further discussion.
At its core, this is a question of whether or not your personal gender identity is aligned with the gender role that is socially expected of you.
Saying that you are "cisgendered" simply means that your gender is (mostly) aligned with social expectations.
Saying you are "transgendered" simply means that your gender (mostly) does not align with social expectations. That doesn't strictly mean your identity is a binary masc/fem flip, but it is often interpreted that way, which is what terms like non-binary (enby) exist to specify.
The important thing to remember about "cis-" and "trans-" is that they are prefixes. They don't exist in isolation. They can describe your sex and gender independently. You can be transgender without being transsexual, or visa versa.
For a lot of trans people, they are perfectly content to change only their gender or their sex, and have no desire to change both. Trans does not have to be a blanket statement.
Finally, the matter of Sexual Orientation...
This is more complicated than it needs to be, since the terms we use for it are a dated mess. The language used here is from a time before distinctions were made between sex and gender, much less transitioning.
Because of that, discussing sexuality is almost impossible without reverting back to a binary form of sex and gender. "Do you like dicks or vaginas? Masculinity or femininity? Is your sex/gender the same as their sex/gender?"
We do our best with this, but the conversation is fundamentally broken at the moment, especially where transitions are concerned.
You’re incredible!!! I’ve never seen your content before. So well spoken, easy to understand, fantastic content thank you
I often wonder what gender would look like in an egalitarian society where the discrimination against trans folks, non-binary people, and women as well as discrimination according to sexual characteristics didn't exist. What would transness or queerness look like? What would gender expression look like? When you're stuck in an oppressive structure it's hard to imagine what it's like to be free.
Your videos have helped me understand gender and my own gender identity. Thank you
"assigned online at birth" i feel so unbelievably called out
Don't do hate speech is like the hardest rule to follow for some
I was just talking about this stuff with my friend this morning! TERF ideology is just beginning its media moment in my country. While it breaks my heart to see the bullshit this heaps onto trans people, as a cis woman it also scares me to see increased social acceptability of a deterministic view of assigned sex.
I don't particularly care for living in a separate sphere from men or my body's ability to *~*create life*~* as I don't plan on using it, thanks.
I struggle with not wanting to center cis women in this conversation yet also acknowledging that TERF ideology does not only harm trans people, about which I think many cis people are oblivious.
You are so brave. Emotional, struggling, irrational, easily infludnced by fashion, empathetic to a crazy level, but brave. What are your plonouns?
Mhm. Terf ideology harms cis women too, and is often at its core stemmed from old misogynist ideas. But try to tell them that, and they'll try their hardest to dig their way out of it. They can't stand the idea that they *really are not* the feminists they claim to be
@@kezkai And the solution to misogyny is by changing definitions of a woman, for example? How will it change anything? I don't care if my wife has a gender identity of a woman or of a man if it only means "woman is a person having a woman's gender Identity". And what is "woman's gender identity"? It is not about personality. My wife may be stereotypically feminine in personality traits and preferences. It is not about being gender nonconforming? So my wife may be feminine in regards to social norms, roles. Yet you claim she may have a gender identity of a man. To me my wife would be a feminine female wishing to perform feminine roles. So what is your point?
@@kezkai You wish me to treat males as females because they identify themselves as women? And what exactly would that imply? I am already expected to be the same toward men and women, equal treatment. There are already gender nonconforming females whom I am expected to respect. So what does it change if a male identifying as a woman came up to me?
Horseshit, horseshit, horseshit.
@@hyawill8944 those are certainly all words. Not sure what you expect me to do with them though