Hey Great clip. Everything went just like you showed. I have been riding and working on Triumphs for 30+ years and still learn from all the clips you have posted. You are doing us all a great dervice! Keep them coming.
I have a small inductive timing light made by Kowa Seiki that is powered by two AA batteries and the lead stores inside . It's about 8"x1 1/2"x1". I've had it for 25 years and it works well. Pardon me for horning in on you like I've been doing the last few days, but I was a Triumph mechanic for 35 years prior to retirement including being National service Manager for Triumph Motorcycles America back in the late '70s, and I think the stuff you show is fun. You know what you're doing.
Thanks for your Video. I have a Boyer set up on my 69' Beeza Thunderbolt. I really wanted to see you start the bike afterwards, and perhaps see the smile on your face at how easy it was or not, given carburetor considerations.
Doh! I realised how to do it as soon as I looked at it again. The thread in the middle of the rotor is there to use a 5/16 thread bolt to push it off the camshaft. Job done.
Thanks! gordonemoore that Kowa Seiki sounds like a handy bit of kit. 35 years on Triumph's, now that is a career to be proud of. Glad you approve of my stuff, thats a proper pat on the head for me :-D cheers!
Old habits die hard, I have always rotated the crank the same as yourself and get too the mark turning the crank in the right direction. I have had my degree disc for umpteen years most of that time its lived in a cupboard :-)
I got rid of "that" birds nest joiner yonks ago :-) its all point to point wiring now all soldered joints apart from some crimped spades at ends, but I do have to cut if I want to remove something. I'm glad the float level vid helped you :-)
I have riding Triumph for years and have owned the same two for 23 years and 15 years agao I put a Boyer on my Bonnie and loved it so much I put one on ym TR6, I am on the third box in 15 years on that bike and the other one is the first one I did and it is fine. I am going back to points on him untill I can afford a Pazon, I hear they are less finicky and more durable .
Also, I would say to go ahead and power your strobe with the bike's own battery. People say it screws with the reading, but I've never found that to be the case. Strobe timing is important. Here in the US particularly because our gasoline is crap. Think 'pool petrol'. I have to run my larger timing light with an external 12v power source because I use 2MCs in everything so I don't have to buy bike batteries.
Nice one. I am currently fitting a Wassell Electronic Ignition using a dual output coil. The principles are the same. I need to double check my static timing though, its running like its fully advanced.
@grant111 Hi grant :-) yes they are wasted spark so you can use either plug as long as there are two timing marks on the alternator. If after you have fitted the unit, it is hard to start try swapping round the two pickup wires first.
Hi again xfire7, :-) I left Mr triumph to do the math and he says 38. As the sparkplug sparks it lights the petrol, and as it is a burn (not an explosion) it takes time to light. This means at higher RPM's the "charge" has to be lit sooner as the piston is on the way up, so by the time its at TDC (just over) the fuel is lit and will push the piston back down (power stroke).
Hello, Thanks for the video 10 years ago and obviously still helping many people ;) I just installed mine with a podtronics regulator. Installed the podtronics and tested with original ignition, had sparks perfectly.. Then intalled the boyer MK4 yesterday and impossible to get sparks.... nothing... connected everything properly as on the picture and as you showed on your video and nothing at all... White cable from the boyer to the negative feed of the ignition feed. Battery is 12.5 v. When switch is on, I get -10.45 v out of the boyer and two times -5.31V to the coils. any idea why no sparks?
@pigpiple Hi pigpiple :-) thank you, I'm glad you found the vid straight forward 31yrs I've had my Bonnie now, lots o miles n lots o smiles and a fair bit of tinkering :-)
I have just fitted a boyer Mk3 but have 2 x 12 volt coils you have 2 x 6 volt coils is this what you were using on the points system before you fitted the boyer Mk3, I followed you when I rebuilt my 71 bonneville engine very impressed with your help
As Boyer say (or use to) in their fitting instructions, 2 x 6V (or 1 dual pole 12V) coils are recommended for highly tuned engines, but you can use the original 12V pair in series as long as total current draw is less than 5A. I ran mine with the original coils with no problems for several years until one of them failed, then replaced them with a pair of 6V.
I've had it fired up with static timing and it sounded very crisp, it also ticked over when cold, so I think it will make a big difference and hopefully cure that miss fire I had. :-)
Also, this probably doesn't matter with electronic ignition, but it might with CB points - I always back the engine past the full advance mark and then come back to it in the direction of engine rotation so as to take out all the slack like it would if it was running. I haven't seen a Wassell degree wheel in years. I met Ted Wassell once when I worked for Bud Ekins. Long time ago.
@MrKevtat thank you MrKevtat :-) I'm not quite a Geordie though! but not far away I'm wot us up ear call a Smoggy! I'm pleased about your bike ride safe.
I tried again briefly yesterday and it ran for a short while only. It did not kick back and backfire so that's an improvement. I was short of time and I won't be able to try it for another couple of weeks. I need to check the fuel supply I think.
Hi Dave yep I have seen the video, later alternator marks are in the 38 degree BTDC place, I did notice though he melted the strobe HT lead on the exhaust, also of which I am guilty.
Hi xfire7 :-) Yes it does run wasted spark, as both pistons are in the same position (up) only one is on its exhaust stroke and that spark is wasted, as they say.
@triumph5ta Hi 5ta :-) most of these EI units are similar to set up, If the timing is advanced you will find the engine most likely pinks(pings) when the engine is put under load, you can load the motor using a high gear at low speed, then try to accelerate. These type of units are fully advanced around 3-4000 rpm.
Thanks for this lunmad. I need to get my timing cover off and even with the cap head bolt withdrawn I can't get the magnetic rotor off the end of the camshaft. Any ideas whats keeping it on there. Do I need a special tool perhaps or maybe the previous owner has loctited the bugger on! Any ideas please.
hello. thanks for all the great knowledge. i'm still trying to get this baby started. where should i order the boyer and timing wheel? what is a good price for them?
Hi Paul :-) sorry for the late reply, The rotor should have two marks on a raised portion opposite each other, the marks correspond to 38 btdc unless the rotor has come loose on its boss, this can be checked using the timing plug at the rear of cylinders find the correct cutaway in crank as there are two and the rotor should line up with pointer.
lunmad. Hi thanks. I'm struggling now with putting a new oil seal on my rocker rear rocker shaft. I'm trying to tap the shaft out. put the seal on. then tap he shaft back through the special tapered tool. but each time the seal gets shredded and pinched. any idea on what I am doing wrong here please?
Hi Paul :-) it should be fairly easy with the tool, I have used a thin feeler gauge with success. If the rocker box is still on get both valves closed and slacken off both tappets, use plenty of grease and instead of tapping put the banjo back on and draw it in with the dome nut.
Hi Paul :-) no such thing as a daft question, just daft answers! taking pressure off the valves allows the shaft to move freely. As the valves operate they push against the shaft, this will most likely shave the new oring at the top.
@SuperEvanw Hi superevan :-) thank you you could try swapping the two wires from the EI stator, you can do this at the coil/s end. The timing marks won't move until you rev the motor and they stop moving around 3500/4000rpm, you might also try giving the tappets a bit of extra gap. Did you use the correct hole in the stator to set the static timing?
thanks for all the help. Just one more question if you don't mind... what is the best way to actually see/test for spark? We're using an inline tester, but is there a method for seeing the spark? (sorry if this is a duplicate comment, but youtube was acting funny)
Good one with the burning the cable tie,I have cut myself lots on them things!Cheers for the vids,what is the bracket above your front engine mount for?
Hi Rubber21 :-) Cable ties ends can be a pain, usually down the back of your hand :-O That bracket thing is to hold my headers, I must make a better one, though it serves its purpose.
Hi DavidSeth2 :-) Glad it helped you and your dad. No spark though :-( I would be looking for loose connections. Make sure your battery is fully charged, don't use resistor plugs if you have resistor plug caps and copper leads are the best. Have you swapped the coils for 6v ones.
Hi Lunmad hows the Boyer ignition holding up over time, are you happy with it? My 6T pre unit currently has points and thinking of changing it , tossing up between electronic ignition or magneto?
Hi maxime :-) no I have not fitted a pazon but they are very similar and the same static settings would be used. Strobing should give exactly the same reading ie line on pointer @ max advance approx 4000 rpm.
You mention that it is customary to time the right side, but since there is a wasted spark, couldn't you attach your timing light to either plug wire? No big deal, just want clarification.
@scaringoldladies Hi scarin, :-) thats right two six volt coils wired in series (like mine) or as you have done and fitted a dual coil. whoops! for the late reply
Hello, great videos! I lost the timing settings while riding my 68 triumph. The bike stalled. Happened when engine revs were very high. Appreciate it if i can contact you over email
It appears as if part of my comment got eaten by the ether, but it's just as well. I suggested perhaps your next door neighbor wouldn't miss his car's battery if you had it back in by the time he needs to go to work.
Lucas was great system. the Boyer not good. The rotating magnet moves on the male shaft causing ignition to be advanced. Have seen this problem 4 times. If you do fit this Boyer my advise is to reset ignition timing every day because it will move. How Boyer won races with this system I do not know
still saving my ass 11 years later!!!! thanks so much, making these old triumphs come back to life has kept me sane.
I'm doing same sane thing!
Hey Great clip. Everything went just like you showed. I have been riding and working on Triumphs for 30+ years and still learn from all the clips you have posted. You are doing us all a great dervice! Keep them coming.
We sadly lost John a couple of years ago, but he will live on forever in his videos.
I have a small inductive timing light made by Kowa Seiki that is powered by two AA batteries and the lead stores inside . It's about 8"x1 1/2"x1". I've had it for 25 years and it works well.
Pardon me for horning in on you like I've been doing the last few days, but I was a Triumph mechanic for 35 years prior to retirement including being National service Manager for Triumph Motorcycles America back in the late '70s, and I think the stuff you show is fun. You know what you're doing.
Thanks for your Video. I have a Boyer set up on my 69' Beeza Thunderbolt. I really wanted to see you start the bike afterwards, and perhaps see the smile on your face at how easy it was or not, given carburetor considerations.
Doh! I realised how to do it as soon as I looked at it again. The thread in the middle of the rotor is there to use a 5/16 thread bolt to push it off the camshaft. Job done.
Thanks! gordonemoore that Kowa Seiki sounds like a handy bit of kit. 35 years on Triumph's, now that is a career to be proud of.
Glad you approve of my stuff, thats a proper pat on the head for me :-D cheers!
Old habits die hard, I have always rotated the crank the same as yourself and get too the mark turning the crank in the right direction.
I have had my degree disc for umpteen years most of that time its lived in a cupboard :-)
Your videos are a big help. I've got a 1972 650 triumph and a 1966 bsa 500 I've just started on. Thanks for your instructions.
Thanks, just checked re-checked my setup and I was miles out, will try and start it tomorrow and see how it goes. Thanks for your advice.
Thanks for making this video... very helpful!
runnin a Pazon in my 66 TR6,,love it,,I likeit way better than the Boyer,,and hey your videos are awesome keep em coming..thanks
Alreet lad shes doing fine after following vid .hope your good up there . Take care
I got rid of "that" birds nest joiner yonks ago :-)
its all point to point wiring now all soldered joints apart from some crimped spades at ends, but I do have to cut if I want to remove something.
I'm glad the float level vid helped you :-)
Yup, Boyer is shit. ruclips.net/video/_B1UYVYYXHg/видео.html
I have riding Triumph for years and have owned the same two for 23 years and 15 years agao I put a Boyer on my Bonnie and loved it so much I put one on ym TR6, I am on the third box in 15 years on that bike and the other one is the first one I did and it is fine. I am going back to points on him untill I can afford a Pazon, I hear they are less finicky and more durable .
Thank you sir....I'm working on a 71 Bonnie, and you're making it a bit easier...lol
Hi Rodger :-) you are welcome.
Also, I would say to go ahead and power your strobe with the bike's own battery. People say it screws with the reading, but I've never found that to be the case. Strobe timing is important. Here in the US particularly because our gasoline is crap. Think 'pool petrol'.
I have to run my larger timing light with an external 12v power source because I use 2MCs in everything so I don't have to buy bike batteries.
Nice one. I am currently fitting a Wassell Electronic Ignition using a dual output coil. The principles are the same. I need to double check my static timing though, its running like its fully advanced.
@grant111
Hi grant :-)
yes they are wasted spark so you can use either plug as long as there are two timing marks on the alternator.
If after you have fitted the unit, it is hard to start try swapping round the two pickup wires first.
Hi again xfire7, :-)
I left Mr triumph to do the math and he says 38.
As the sparkplug sparks it lights the petrol, and as it is a burn (not an explosion) it takes time to light.
This means at higher RPM's the "charge" has to be lit sooner as the piston is on the way up, so by the time its at TDC (just over) the fuel is lit and will push the piston back down (power stroke).
Hello, Thanks for the video 10 years ago and obviously still helping many people ;) I just installed mine with a podtronics regulator. Installed the podtronics and tested with original ignition, had sparks perfectly.. Then intalled the boyer MK4 yesterday and impossible to get sparks.... nothing... connected everything properly as on the picture and as you showed on your video and nothing at all... White cable from the boyer to the negative feed of the ignition feed. Battery is 12.5 v. When switch is on, I get -10.45 v out of the boyer and two times -5.31V to the coils. any idea why no sparks?
Hi bigblockrat :-)
thanks, just glad to help welcome to the wonderful world of owld Triumphs.
@pigpiple
Hi pigpiple :-) thank you, I'm glad you found the vid straight forward
31yrs I've had my Bonnie now, lots o miles n lots o smiles
and a fair bit of tinkering :-)
I have just fitted a boyer Mk3 but have 2 x 12 volt coils you have 2 x 6 volt coils is this what you were using on the points system before you fitted the boyer Mk3, I followed you when I rebuilt my 71 bonneville engine very impressed with your help
As Boyer say (or use to) in their fitting instructions, 2 x 6V (or 1 dual pole 12V) coils are recommended for highly tuned engines, but you can use the original 12V pair in series as long as total current draw is less than 5A. I ran mine with the original coils with no problems for several years until one of them failed, then replaced them with a pair of 6V.
Thank you Iunmad .Great job on the vids very helpful for those new to the Trumps.
I've had it fired up with static timing and it sounded very crisp, it also ticked over when cold, so I think it will make a big difference and hopefully cure that miss fire I had. :-)
Also, this probably doesn't matter with electronic ignition, but it might with CB points - I always back the engine past the full advance mark and then come back to it in the direction of engine rotation so as to take out all the slack like it would if it was running.
I haven't seen a Wassell degree wheel in years. I met Ted Wassell once when I worked for Bud Ekins. Long time ago.
i thought its micro mk11 transitor box needs ventilation,is the rubber inner tube cover used ok for this
lunmad: brilliant video m8 :-) just a quickie, do I need make any additional adjustment to 38 tdc for modern fuel on same bike?
@MrKevtat
thank you MrKevtat :-) I'm not quite a Geordie though! but not far away
I'm wot us up ear call a Smoggy!
I'm pleased about your bike
ride safe.
I tried again briefly yesterday and it ran for a short while only. It did not kick back and backfire so that's an improvement. I was short of time and I won't be able to try it for another couple of weeks. I need to check the fuel supply I think.
Great video, it really helped me and my dad with his m3 unit. Still not getting a spark though :-/
Seen a bloke named DACHPR timing his Bonnie exactly as you said, ON THE WRONG MARKS!!! I advised him to watch YOUR VIDEOS. Cheers Dave
Hi Dave yep I have seen the video, later alternator marks are in the 38 degree BTDC place, I did notice though he melted the strobe HT lead on the exhaust, also of which I am guilty.
Hi xfire7 :-)
Yes it does run wasted spark, as both pistons are in the same position (up) only one is on its exhaust stroke and that spark is wasted, as they say.
Thanks mcra3005, :-)
I've always worked the spanners, trying to get it on camera is something else.
@triumph5ta
Hi 5ta :-)
most of these EI units are similar to set up, If the timing is advanced you will find the engine most likely pinks(pings) when the engine is put under load, you can load the motor using a high gear at low speed, then try to accelerate.
These type of units are fully advanced around 3-4000 rpm.
What is the reason for using two pick-up coils
A Boyer made a big difference to my Commando :-) Anth.
Thanks for this lunmad. I need to get my timing cover off and even with the cap head bolt withdrawn I can't get the magnetic rotor off the end of the camshaft. Any ideas whats keeping it on there. Do I need a special tool perhaps or maybe the previous owner has loctited the bugger on! Any ideas please.
hello. thanks for all the great knowledge. i'm still trying to get this baby started. where should i order the boyer and timing wheel? what is a good price for them?
Been there and done it, He did not suspect a thing :-D
Hi
i am trying the same on my 750 T140E'. Does the single marker on the T140E's rotor signify TDC or 38 before?
Hi Paul :-) sorry for the late reply,
The rotor should have two marks on a raised portion opposite each other, the marks correspond to 38 btdc
unless the rotor has come loose on its boss, this can be checked using the timing plug at the rear of cylinders
find the correct cutaway in crank as there are two and the rotor should line up with pointer.
lunmad. Hi thanks. I'm struggling now with putting a new oil seal on my rocker rear rocker shaft. I'm trying to tap the shaft out. put the seal on. then tap he shaft back through the special tapered tool. but each time the seal gets shredded and pinched. any idea on what I am doing wrong here please?
Hi Paul :-) it should be fairly easy with the tool, I have used a thin feeler gauge with success.
If the rocker box is still on get both valves closed and slacken off both tappets, use plenty of grease and instead of tapping put the banjo back on and draw it in with the dome nut.
lunmad Thanks. i hadn't looked at the rocker/valves. if it's not a daft question why does it matter?
Hi Paul :-) no such thing as a daft question, just daft answers!
taking pressure off the valves allows the shaft to move freely.
As the valves operate they push against the shaft,
this will most likely shave the new oring at the top.
@SuperEvanw
Hi superevan :-) thank you
you could try swapping the two wires from the EI stator, you can do this at the coil/s end.
The timing marks won't move until you rev the motor and they stop moving around 3500/4000rpm,
you might also try giving the tappets a bit of extra gap.
Did you use the correct hole in the stator to set the static timing?
thanks for all the help. Just one more question if you don't mind... what is the best way to actually see/test for spark? We're using an inline tester, but is there a method for seeing the spark? (sorry if this is a duplicate comment, but youtube was acting funny)
thanks, you saved my day!!
no... the coils are the originals. Should we swap them?
What is the trick for pulling the contact breaker plate and shaft? It aint moving, I don't have a puller, and I am afraid of buggering the thing...
Great job thank you!!!!
The originals are most likely 12v,
(if you have replaced points)
so you should swap them for two 6v,
or a dual output (2 HT leads) 12v coil.
Is it still positive earth?
Good one with the burning the cable tie,I have cut myself lots on them things!Cheers for the vids,what is the bracket above your front engine mount for?
Hi Rubber21 :-)
Cable ties ends can be a pain, usually down the back of your hand :-O
That bracket thing is to hold my headers, I must make a better one, though it serves its purpose.
Hi DavidSeth2 :-)
Glad it helped you and your dad. No spark though :-( I would be looking for loose connections.
Make sure your battery is fully charged, don't use resistor plugs if you have resistor plug caps and copper leads are the best.
Have you swapped the coils for 6v ones.
is the same electronic sistem in my BSA 71 .. 650 .. scrambler ????
i can used that ...... cheers .......
Hi SILVERHORSE347 :-)
Only time will tell if the Boyer is as reliable as the Rita
Fingers crossed.
lunmad where can I obtain an ignition system like that for my triumph here in the states mate
klempfs british parts
Hi Lunmad hows the Boyer ignition holding up over time, are you happy with it? My 6T pre unit currently has points and thinking of changing it , tossing up between electronic ignition or magneto?
Hi Chris :-)
the Boyer is still going strong it's 9 yrs since I fitted it, around 20,000 miles so no complaints.
Have you ever fit a Pazon "Sure Fire " on a triumph?
Hi maxime :-)
no I have not fitted a pazon but they are very similar and the same static settings would be used.
Strobing should give exactly the same reading ie line on pointer @ max advance approx 4000 rpm.
You mention that it is customary to time the right side, but since there is a wasted spark, couldn't you attach your timing light to either plug wire? No big deal, just want clarification.
@triumph5ta
Did you get it going 5ta?
Cheers ttwilightzzone :-)
strobe timing next, when I can borrow another battery for my strobe.
In that case they will be 6v you should be ok.
As the Lucas Rita has 2-6v coils
Excellent :D
lunmad what does mean TDC?
how can find it?
thanks a lot! Max
Top Dead Centre
If it has boyer fitted yes, it could have Lucas Rita which is similar.
@scaringoldladies
Hi scarin, :-) thats right two six volt coils wired in series (like mine)
or as you have done and fitted a dual coil.
whoops! for the late reply
no, we didn't replace points... my dads 79 was the first to use electric ignition (or that's what we've been told)
Hello, great videos! I lost the timing settings while riding my 68 triumph. The bike stalled. Happened when engine revs were very high. Appreciate it if i can contact you over email
Hi Zaid :-) thank you, drop me a pm with your email and I will get in touch.
lunmad zaid.alsaad@gmail.com
lunmad thanks for the reply :)
Top Dead Center
Thanks Ken :-)
TDC = Top Dead Centre.
BTDC = Before Top Dead Centre.
what are you doing here dad! :)
EVEN CAPTION COULD NOT INTERPRET WHAT YOUR SAYING, BUT, A DECENT VIDEO.
"screws with the reading"
Well, maybe if the seat slams shut on the leads...
now going Mag........... I like punishment
It appears as if part of my comment got eaten by the ether, but it's just as well. I suggested perhaps your next door neighbor wouldn't miss his car's battery if you had it back in by the time he needs to go to work.
Lucas was great system. the Boyer not good. The rotating magnet moves on the male shaft causing ignition to be advanced. Have seen this problem 4 times. If you do fit this Boyer my advise is to reset ignition timing every day because it will move. How Boyer won races with this system I do not know
Hi Peter :-) I fit the Boyer 10 years ago now approx 20-30,000 miles and it's still going, I would guess that is pretty reliable.
y u telling people to set tdc after intake valve has opened???
its not overhead cam. intake is irelivant.
just set tdc on right cylinder.
LOL!
What is the trick for pulling the contact breaker plate and shaft? It aint moving, I don't have a puller, and I am afraid of buggering the thing...