The Dark Angles have the right idea. Each chapter functions as a company and can dispatch to threats easy yet have the Legion command structure for communication and resources
Especially considering that the ultramarines have an entire chapter of spares to refill their ranks on demand and that many ultramarine successors are directly under the unofficial authority of the ultramarine chapter masters Guilliman himself after his return put his stamp of approval to the broader authority of ultramarine over their successors Do granpa Smurf as always is applying rules only to other people but not to himslef
Exactly, trust the sons of the Lion to not only basically flip off Gulliman and his self imposed rules, but also manage to make it into yet another secret as they do so.
The idea of having the founding legions remaining Legions would be a great overwhelming force of the Imperium, with recognized individuals being able to create their own chapter. Chapters would be flexible and respond quicker to assess and begin preparations to defeat the enemy or be an advance force before the legions might
A chapter size force is like an appetizer before the full meal for a hive fleet Guilliman codex was good to create a many fast response teams scattered around the imperium It is awful to manage large scale. Invasions As the beast or even leviathan showed only the combined force of a reformed legion size force has the power to confront enemy of that size
@@brockwilkie6022 don t make me start ranting about the seemingly endless supply of chaos marines that somehow numbers in the milions in the eyes of terror or the fact that in a region of space devoid of human life, infrastructures like docks and shipyards factories resources extractors and processsors You know What you need to actually sustain a modern warfare endeavors Yet they are able to regularly produce entire invasion fleets always outnumbering an actual galaxy wide spanning empire with actual industrial capabilities But games workshop attitude towards chaos is like in fantasy Somehow milions of people live in a place situated north of Siberia and Scandinavia equivalent of the old world (norsca and kislev) in a place literally called chaos wastes on the polar region A place filled with demons and mutated beast where agriculture is impossibile and where every single roaming tribe eat each other on sight But somehow they are still capable of amassing armies the size of hundred k if not milions something that only slaves can match and have their “normal tier “ warrior wear elaborate full body plate armour more advanced of what civilized industrial nation can do
What if they turned the Deathwatch into a Legion? It is comprised of all lineages, it is over seen by the Ordo Xenos Inquisition, and it specializes in fighting Xenos. I think if Guilliman wanted a politic' way of bring back one or more legions, then this would be the best in lore rout.
I would allow it only if they loan a few of their Corvus Blackstars to the Raven Guard as much like the 1rst Legion Raven Wing models I feel these suffer from a bad case of "This was literally designed for a specific legion, probably by Corvus Corax himself" but wound up in the hands of other people. I have always said "Why do the White Scars and Raven Guard even have a rivalry? If anything the White Scars should be beefing with the Raven Wing and having bike races."
I'm honestly surprised Abbadon hasn't used the opportunity of Leviathan to defend humanity. It would make a dramatic statement and sway Imperial citizens to the side of Chaos potentially.
Hmm...not sure why RUclips deleted my comment. I'll just retype it. Abbadon doesn't care about the thoughts of normal people or public relations. He takes what he wants. He is not interested in winning the hearts and minds of Imperium Citizens.
The Lion could potentially be the one to bring about a semi legion sized force with all of the existing Dark angels successor chapters the new Primaris chapters and now with the Risen joining, he could easily be sitting on a force of over 15,000 marines
@@majorgrumpybum3161Correct. They all used to fluctuate somewhere around 100k with the exceptions being the Ultramarines who I believe mightve sat somewhere around 250k (and why Horus feared them so much) and next in distant second the Word Bearers I believe.
@@jmlaw8888 The Legions started at around 10,000 and then grew. Some, like the Ultramarines grew massively. But yeah most were between 100,000 to 200,000 strong. Word Bearers, and potentially Alpha legion, secretly grew rapidly in preparation for the Heresy but it is said the Word Bearers were really straining their system/gene seed to make it happen and had to lower standards. No one had a stable growth path like the Ultramarines. They had like 250,00 and were not even particularly trying to grow fast until post Calth and the Heresy.
I think the legions are just straight up better than the chapters, and thats by design, many legions, like the Whitescars, were very good at acting in smaller groups scattered across the galaxy. I think the breakup of the legions made the imperium weaker to any external threat, but we have to remember that back then, right after the heresy, the Imperium had pretty much total dominion of the galaxy, so they could afford to lose some ofensive power to prevent internal threats like a second heresy. Now tho, with all the endtimes big threats sprouting up, the legions are needed agin, its that simple.
It would. Honestly, I can't decide if the Imperial Fists or the Iron Hands would be a better Legion choice. The Fists would definitely do better when defending stationary structures and fortifications but the Hands would be far better at counter attacks and just offence in general (plus they have more fire-power than any other Legion which is always a help against the Space Bugs of Death).
I would LOVE to see Roboute Guilliman reinstate the legions, even if only temporarily. In fact, I'd love to see more legions created. I also think they should have dedicated elements that mirror the Orphans of War, in their mixed capabilities, small unit tactics, etc.
It's the kind of job the Emperor would have sent the Lion and his Legion to deal with. Sadly the Loss of the skills and stuff they had had has long gone.
I prefer the legions but by efficiency it should have kept the chapters at their original capacity of 10,000 members and not only 1,000 with a system of constant communication between the various chapters so as to be able to reinforce in case of need
Great video Wolf Lord! Personally I would genuinely love to see an incident where the the entire Black Templars chapter are called by Helbrecht to face a Tyranid hive fleet that would be something glorious! ⚔️
I think the chapters are fine as long as they can come together in legion strength and command structure quickly for large threats. Just as the modern military does. In my unit we deployed as individual platoons but could easily come together as a company, battalion or even regiment size force whenever necessary. And could of course be attached to divisions or even entire corps as the mission demanded. The chapters have distinct individual strengths that could play their part in the mission. Legions were powerful but typically were one type solution force, having legion strength with multiple chapters capable of conducting multiple different combat roles is a strength in its own.
I predict that, in the case where G-man has to pivot back into a legion system, they will be able to push back against the hive fleets just enough that things start to look hopeful, then we'll get Heresy 2: Abaddon Boogaloo.
Honestly, I think it would be kind of cool to see a reformation of the legions while still maintaining the chapter system. The Legion's would serve the purpose of powerful offensive swords, whereas the chapters would serve as defensive shields.
I think a mix of chapters who can response fast and legions to act as a hammer would work better, one could get there fast and deal with what's going until a legion could arrive
Well I think that when it comes to the Tyranids. To deal with the Hive fleet you need the strenght of the Legions and the Imperal guard to act as both the Hammer and the Anvil. But the Hive fleet also useing geanstealer cults let the chapters Hunt them down and to blind the hive.
With the return of Gulliman and the Lion, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. They can command as many Chapters as they need to counter the threat, and Dante himself proved that the Astartes are still capable of acting as a Legion when the need arrived while also keeping them dispersed (which also improve survivability and rapid response capability) when don't. You already have the benefits from both world with the current system.
Not quite. In Devastation of Baal, a lot of the Blood Angels successors clashed due to ideological differences. A legion would have way better coherence
@@nonyabuissness5128 I meant numerically. At Baal you had what, 30-40k marines at once place and they still nearly lost. My post was chapters-sized forces have become irrevalant against the Tyranids.
I think the unforgiven have the answer for this question. Chapters dedicated for specific roles/tasks and when united can bring forth the might of a legion. Add the hexagrammaton into the mix and you've got an adaptable legion that can counter any situation.
I've proposed a structure that would have worked and covered both sets of possibilities. My proposed core unit of the Astartes, post-Heresy, is the Chapter. It consists of 10,000 marines, broken up into ten battalions of a thousand marines (the only exception is the Chapters of the First Founding, which have proven their loyalty by being allowed to maintain 20,000 marines in ten battalions of two thousand). In theory, the Chapter deploys to fight wars, but it’s usually a single battalion or two to a war zone. Some of these vary, of course-between iconoclast Chapters like the Space Wolves (who might be getting up to their previous legion size…) or the Minotaurs (who ONLY deploy as a Chapter). But, a battalion is a complete combat unit for the Astartes-they have ships, armor, equipment, etc, etc, etc…to do everything. Chapters recruit as per the current lore, and they don’t stop recruiting when they hit their nominal 10,000 marine limit. Instead, they keep growing until they hit 15,000 marines. Once they do, the Chapter is split in half. The most experienced officers and most junior enlisted remain as the Chapter. The least experienced officers and the most experienced enlisted will be sent out to accomplish something. Perhaps join a Crusade, maybe take a territory only brought back into the Imperium of Man, maybe fill a hole somewhere. Once they accomplish this task, the new splinter takes a Chapter name and becomes a Chapter of their own. (The First Founding Chapters have to grow to 30,000 before they split. The “new” Chapter of 15,000 will only operate at half recruiting rate until they fall to the 10,000 marine limit.
@@BloodyArchangelus well yes and no sadly, most the time they fought them sane but by the end of it there were only around 1.000 to 2.000 blood angles plus successors left which then all went badshit🤣
@@mitchelarchbold9219 they don’t need black rage to be powerful. Dante under thrist killed 6 marines by bare hands. Black rage just amplifies their abilities. And I ve read dov a lot of times.
A couple of points I would like to make. The Blood Angels took the (near) Legion approach. The Tyranids had numbers beyond count, a total disregard for losses. Had not Kabanda interfered & Mephiston been diverted, the Blood Angels & sucessor Chapters might have faired better. The Ultra Marines suffered horribly during the Tyranid invasion of Macragge. A major concentration of force is a good tactic, but the right one?
A focus on the naval side of things i think would be a surperior approach. Every ship the tyranids lose is potentially a loss they can't replace or will have to at cost. I dont know how long it would take the hive fleet to replace losses but if they can be stalled in the void, or even forced into retreat, there may still be hope
my take on the idea at hand is quite simple honestly. there should be only three legions and many more chapters, and it could make sense from how gw has played things out so far. now the ultra marines are a prime example of a wonder set up for a lot of chapters, and being able to adapt, respond and deploy all quite fast would be good for the idea of chapters. I also think salamanders, iron hands, raven guard, all act better as chapters. the space wolves the dark angels should be legions and blood angels or imperial fist could go to both ways. so have legions and chapters, different responsibility for different forces. also the fact that those who would genuinely be more effective as a legion force are the more "fuck the codex" and have there own books would work out well.
... What's ideal is a meshing of both chapters as well as legions (perhaps a ratio of one legion per fifty or so chapters?! 🤔). Allowing chapters to respond quickly while the legions can be brought to bear on greater threats.
Even during the great crusade the legions where broken up into smaller battle groups. In most cases different legion battle groups worked together for a diverse expertice
It would make sense to me to have a nodal approach to legions. Each segmentum gets a 100k strong legion . based at the segmentum capital or somewhere else with excellent transport links. The legion is kept together and trains together. Segmentum Solar get four legions. One for itself. The other as ready reinforcements for the the other segmentum legions. This is in addition to the existing chapters. Yes, its still woefully lacking in what really needed. But we are no going to magic up several hundred MILLION SM to cover whats needed. 800k-to 1M new SM for my legions is doable in the current setting. As, unlike Cawls Primaris, Its done with the full backing and resource's of the Imperium. The new legions should NOT be spinoffs from existing chapters. They should be all new formations. Saves on any old baggage and shenanigan's. As the Imperium seems to be able to magic thousands of new ships out of the Emporers back pocket whenever needed for a crusade. The new legions could use several, basically Ark Mechnicus vessels to help with their logistics. So, even if cut off. A legion in combat still has some organic ability to manufacture replacement armour, Bolters and ammunition. Ideally, the legion would have lots of bulk transports that are not Strike Cruisers. Real troop ships with good defences and speed. The Imperial Navy is the one needing warships. During the Heresy, its glossed over how they were transported. Even Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers were hard to manufacture even then.
The thought experiment of 'what would Guilliman have done if he'd known of the Tyranids at the Time of the codex.' How would he prepare for an existential threat that won't land a blow for 9k year?
I understand why Gilman broke up the legions, but in hindsight you have so many Legions of Destruction down upon the Imperium where chapters are nice but an entire Legion. You do the math.
Well the nimble Tyranids would just kite the legions around. At the same time the chapters would just be overwhelmed. The Astartes will have to adapt beyond both
Definitely prefer the legions. It would be a great story trying to tell all the chapters that they all fall under their primarch’s legion. That would not sit well with Flesh Tearers and definitely not the Black Templars. Great story to tell in trying to reform the legions that could lead to its own civil war.
Great topic. In my opinion, the Legions would be better at dealing with the Tyranids. Which legions? The Dark Angels. They are literally the monster slayers of the legions, and they had access to Unification Era/ Dark Age of Technology weapons. The Imperium would end up with a few less worlds, but leave an Eskaton at the head of every Tyranid tendril and watch the Xenos be beaten back. Combine the Dark Angels with the Death Guard against the Tyranids, and they would be wiped.
I Didn't think of the Iron Tenth until you said it but now I think that may be the single best force of Loyalists to handle a HiveFleet. Given their penchant for tech and that they are the closest to a machine of war, figurative and literal, I think they would be perfect Legion to use as a counter. Sure you can add the Lion and his Dark Age tech.
You forget one of the main functions of splitting the Legions. If a full legion falls to chaos again, it would be a catastrophe. If a chapter falls to chaos, it can be dealt with.
Aren't the entire Thousand Suns legion on Prospero at the moment (less Ahriman and some)? I feel like a conflict of ideas between the united front of a legion vs. the strikeforces of chapters could be played out in a story where the Tyranids represent an existential threat great enough to united Magnus and the Imperium for a very short time. Maybe not in an organized fashion, but the disorganized chaos of "oh, wtf are the Thousand Suns doing here?? They're not fighting us???" type of thing. Seems like Prospero's interests (and Magnus' about humanity's ascension as a psychic race) would be very much threatened otherwise. Also, chaos vs. Tyranids? Heck yeah.
GW are gonna release all the primarchs eventually, except ferrus and Horus. Rogal Dorn shall return, realise the mistake of chapters, but not admit he was wrong because he’s stubborn. He’ll active the last wall protocol and unofficially reform a legion. Defeat the big bad of the edition he’d be released in.
The main advantage I see of legion strength forces is the concentration of warships. If the swarm can be slowed or even halted in the void, every loss they suffer is one they will have to replace at cost. Hive ships are incredibly big and tough but they are not invincible, even the loss of one is a tremendous blow. I know it is much easier said than done to defeat the xenos in space combat but it is something we have to consider. Denying the enemy access to resources is one of the best ways to slow down or outright defeat an enemy that cares little for its losses
What if the answer is both. You combine certain chapters(7-10) that compliment the others strengths/weakness into a Legion. That way the "Legion" can a multitude of threats and be more effective. A plus would be moral amongst the Chapters. Learning to fight together and prosecuting campaigns would form new bonds. Imagine 10-12 "Legions" of diverse SM ready for whatever the imperium needs.
More Space Marines are needed to combat the threats of the Imperium. I comprehend the whole stagnant grim-dark esthetic, but they gotta get over that for the sake of the narrative.
Each chapter has 1000 space marines + possibly 200 initiates and specialists. If you assume that 20 successor chapters responded to Dante's plea that's 20,000 marines. By rights they should have lost so there was a heck of a lot of plot armour that allowed the Blood Angels to win.
The pre-heresy legions would do better than if all the successor chapters came together now for several reasons. 1. Pre-Heresy all the Primarchs were still about so legendary warriors were led by a Demi God which is massively significant. 2. Much higher numbers to call upon even the lesser legions like Night Lords still had decent numbers. 3. Unified under one command structure so everyone knew their part but also despite some having rivalries within the Legion they all followed one voice. 4. The uniting of a legion would also bring about a number of the expedition fleets together so it wouldn't just be the legion fighting but a massive army of non-astartes and more importantly a hell of a lot more Titans. So to summarise Guilliman's chapters structure have done extremely well to even stand a chance against the Tyranid menace
Ultimately the legions were meant to work in concert. The best compromise is the deathwatch. Which I argue is similar to the primarche project in miniature
Honestly chapters are actually better. Because of the changes to space marine recruitment post hersey as well as changes to training, the average firstborn adeptus astartes is far better than an average legionary. Legions have many weaknesses, the primary ones being logistical, inflexible battle doctrine, high attrition and the need for a primarch to lead them. The problem with the tyranids is that you ultimately cannot go on the offensive against them, which the legions were designed for, as the tyranids don't hold planets, you are forced to fight on the defensive as they come to planets and if you do go on the offensive, to attack their hive ships, small elite kill teams are more efficient than large formations. And this is where chapters excel, if coordinating with local imperial guard and PDF forces, a company or two can hold out for quite some time against a hive fleet as evidence with the tyranid assault on Taris Ultra. And because of the smaller chapter formations, deployment of assets is much quicker than a legions deployment. Its ultimately a moot point, the Imperium cannot support legion sized formations, they can barely supply the current chapters with power armor, vehicles and ships not to mention that the Imperium cannot mass produce geneseed anymore and needs to harvest it. So chapters are the way to go whether you like it or not, after the scouring no legion could have been supported.
Seems most legions have a protocol in place to reassemble the chapters. The only legion i could think not able to return to meaningful strength right now are the space wolves. For all we know there are enough of legions 2 and 11 to pop up in a bind.
If there are roughly 1000 chapters. They could all offer 200 marines creating a legion of 200,000 with the combined strength of all. Therefore keeping a quick strike force in the chapters over the imperium imperium and a sledgehammer force to take on bigger threats.
obviously with both primarch and legion....the 30k crusade set up might body a whole fleet instead of staving off tendrils. Without primarchs the chapters offer more adaptability that can spread. You look at what individual marines become and they are way more than what a rank and file space marine is on paper. The space marines are the greatest threat in the end because ...yes they have unending tactics. They become leaders of chaos warbands, creators of NuMen, wtf is Mephiston , Cypher or Ahriman, or explain the Grey Knight to me... who beat a primarch... demonic prince primarch waves upon waves of enemies is a great tactic but I think the Orcs should get the win if GW ever ends the Tyranid faction, it would be fitting.
The Legions hands down sheerly for logistics and cohesion. Now if you get 20k marines together you've got 20 Chapter Masters that need to have a constant gene seed measuring contest. The Legions could field 200k men with a clear chain of command and unity of tactical doctrines. The Chapters are the most egregious thing Guilliman ever did, especially as he had Cawl secretly creating him multiple legions worth of Primaris that were all directly under his control.
That implies that the Legions could keep that manpower over the 10k years of degradation. And when then, some legions would have less Marines than the BA and their successors did at Baal. 200k Marines is the kinda number that only Pre-Heresy Dark Angels and Ultramarines could boast. The Chapters were perfect for what the Imperium needed for the last few thousand years before the nids showed up.
The whole point of the legions is to be an unstoppable offensive to reclaim the galaxy for humanity. Do bear in mind that it wasn't just the legions that were involved in conquering planets. They worked closely in tandem with titan legions, solar auxillia, and naval elements in combined arms warfare. Most importantly, the primarchs were able to utilize these elements successfully because they were demigods that had the tactical and strategic brilliance that made them unstoppable on the battlefield. The Devastation of Baal perfectly portrayed the reality of trying to bring a legion back together. Dante was barely able to get the different Blood Angels chapters to work together due to how distant they have become and they didn't even come close to the size of any of the other legions prior to the Horus Heresy. Can you imagine Marnius Calgar trying to do the same thing with the Ultramarine successor chapters before Guiliman returned? The only legion I can see getting its chapters back together would be the Dark Angels and that's because they never really split apart in the first place.
Increase the size of the second founding chapters to 10,000 space marines. That's about 40 to 50 chapters so 400,000 to 500,000 spaces marines. All other chapters to 2,000 space marines. The second founding chapter would still be smaller than legions but would react faster than a fully legion, and would serve as a core if larger formations were needed.
People really forget that Legions had Chapters/Orders/Exploration fleet depening what legion they where in. A good example with the Dark angels they had Orders that similar to Chapters. In all honesty GW can bring back the legion with out messing with people Chapters/Homebrew. They will just be categories in what legion are in and what order/Chapter/Exploration fleet. As in a sense they can send 1000 marines into a battle instead of a Squad. Because they can reproduce legionaries faster than ever
Necrons are going to require more than a Chapter. Just imagine Imperial fists holding ground, while Crimson Fists and Black Templars lead withering direct action. I do not many forces of being able to deal with the Sons of Dorn gathered together.
I believe this comes down to organising of scale. 10 chapters working independently against an opponent isn't as effective or powerful as 10.000 marines under a singular command-structure. The Imperial military is fundamentally design to prevent singular Command structures from forming... which has upsides and downsides.
I don't see why we can't have both, take the chapters and reform the legions for large scale threats while allowing the Chapter Masters to retain the ability to command their chapters so that the chapter size threats need to be handled
Ultimately, legions would be better. As tooth to tail entirely being marines is always going to function more effectively than a chapter that is relying on multiple elements to allow them to engage key targets on interest. But chapters function well as the imperial war machine can sustain engagements against tyranids whilst they.do their thing. But the major problem comes about as the space marines are ultimately relying on various elementss to work together to set the conditionss for their strategy.
In the United State we have the US Army and the Marine Corps. The army is the sledgehammer, and the Marines are the war hammer. Legion and chapter. Quick Reaction Force (Marines) and Large Scale Strategic Force (Army). The situation being faced decides which one is better.
It wasn't just the Ultramarines, There were millions of Ultramar planetary defence forces that died. Just like the 300 Spartans, they don't mention 4000 Greeks who also fought and died in the battle. Plot armour at its best.
A legion has a better chance higher numbers more equipment and better logistics than they do now ( chapters) But the problem being is legions tended tp use force and shock and awe the brute force works until the tyranids adapt something that most legions didnt do it its a...its a 50/50 to me so many factors play into it but i do love these mental exercises
the legions wouldnt the dark angels fleet with its dark age of technology tech would, the lion noted in one of the heresy books he could have beat all the other legions combined in a war based on his fleet and his dark age of technology tech
I wonder if the current Imperium can logistically support multiple Legions? I agree, the Legions are the better counter to the Hive Fleets but the Imperium was way more efficient during the Great Crusade era.
this lore about 100k marines in legion is dumb as f8ck. It just makes marines useless, coz they just stomp everything with those numbers and IOM should be dead after HH ended and war of beast came. coz no marines. we had 2 mil marines in lore, where are they? we had damn only 25k marines on baal and they were op as F*ck. gw should return to old numbers of 10k legions.@@SupaGooby
Whilst seeing a fully fledged legion would be something else, it would not be possible without a new sundering. 10 000 years of independently operating cannot be cast aside so easily. Much like in real world military it is very easy and cheap to get rid of a capability, but very difficult, expensive and time consuming to get it back. Re-building the legions now would be nigh impossible. I would instead suggest increasing the overall size of the chapters from the codex limit of 1000 to something between 6000 and 20 000 Astartes. Even increasing the size would be a monumental task considering how long it takes to produce space marines.
If the current 40k had Legions with proper leaders or the Primarchs themselves. No fallen to chaos etc. The same Legions from old. Tyranids would be absolutely wrecked. Edit - Same scenario. Old Legions. Before Horus Heresy. No corruption etc. Vs Necrons? Thoughts
Guillimans statesmanship must be use to talk to eldary and necrons to fight tyranids before emperium silent king face the tyranids and manage to defeat them since necrons has no organic material to regenerate
Unfortunately I think this question is a moot point. To discount the Legions ability to act in the modern 40k manner of chapters in a more defensive role is confirmation bias based on what they have now. It has zero bearing on whether a larger, more well supported, supplied and logistically capable organisation would be able to dispatch smaller strike forces to deal with localised threats. If anything, legion would simply be responsible for a far, far wider area of operation than a chapter. The breaking of the Legions was an act made out of fear, a knee jerk reaction to a temporary problem that was a poor decision for a forethinking empire builder like Guilliman. Do you think that only thr loyal Legions would be left as they were, maybe with only 10000 marines in each? The Legions had no logistical ceiling and by the time of thr 41st milennium may have had millions of brethren. This also totally discounts a Legion or multiple Legions ability to completely eradicate a threat, not just contain it or drive it off, reducing the logistical and strategic considerations that plague the 41st milenniums imperium.
In my mind a legion should come with its Primarch, while chapters don't. Given how much of a power multiplier a Primarch would be, obviously the legion would win in that case. But a legion without their daddy is no better than just many chapters together.
Using the ironhands will end up like tyrant primus tyranids adapt so we need a force that vast can evolve its strategy for me mixing imperium eldary and the necrons specially necrons they thier weapons is fit to fight even large tyranids
i'm thinking everyone is forgetting 1 important fact as powerful as the legions were space marines have never been the backbone of imperial power each legion was supported by the imperial army while the legions got all the credit they did not pacify every planet during the crusade the imperial navy and armies did most of that. even the legions had standing divisions of troops from their homeworlds.
The chapters were good most of the time in the 10K years. However the Harrowing, War of the Beast, Necrons, Tyranids and Black Crusades the Legions would have beat them all except maybe the Necrons depending on how early they caught them waking.
Here's my two cents. I think disbanding the legions was a stupid mistake lore wise but I understand the reasons for it both in universe and from Games Workshop's view. I think, if not bring back the legions, they should enlarge the size limitations on Chapters. I think 5,000 or 10,000 would be a good size both in universe and out. I argue it allows players to still have their special snowflakes and freedom to personalize whatever chapter they use. I think it will reconcile a lot of inconsistencies in lore, art, and stories. It will give chapters a boon to fight threats like the tyranids while still limiting the damage they could do if they turned traitor. They would still be a maneuverable and elite but would also be afforded more flexibility and options. Hell, at 10,000 you could call them legions and divide each legion into chapters like it was in the old days.
I see no reason why a Legion couldn’t be dispersed to act like chapters but have the ability to rally for tyrannid like threats. The chapters worked for 10,000 years. To reverse the decision doesn’t mean he was wrong, it just means times have changed the playing field.
The legions get all the press but Marines were never the hammer. The guard is 90% of the Emperors strength. They need to start showing some guard victories of the Nids. That said, I don't think a hive fleet would have enjoyed a fight with the pre-fall Death Guard. I can't imagine a better weapon to fight bugs that mass phosphex
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The Dark Angles have the right idea. Each chapter functions as a company and can dispatch to threats easy yet have the Legion command structure for communication and resources
Especially considering that the ultramarines have an entire chapter of spares to refill their ranks on demand and that many ultramarine successors are directly under the unofficial authority of the ultramarine chapter masters
Guilliman himself after his return put his stamp of approval to the broader authority of ultramarine over their successors
Do granpa Smurf as always is applying rules only to other people but not to himslef
Exactly, trust the sons of the Lion to not only basically flip off Gulliman and his self imposed rules, but also manage to make it into yet another secret as they do so.
The idea of having the founding legions remaining Legions would be a great overwhelming force of the Imperium, with recognized individuals being able to create their own chapter. Chapters would be flexible and respond quicker to assess and begin preparations to defeat the enemy or be an advance force before the legions might
A chapter size force is like an appetizer before the full meal for a hive fleet
Guilliman codex was good to create a many fast response teams scattered around the imperium
It is awful to manage large scale. Invasions
As the beast or even leviathan showed only the combined force of a reformed legion size force has the power to confront enemy of that size
To a lesser extent, the Black Crusades as well.
@@brockwilkie6022 don t make me start ranting about the seemingly endless supply of chaos marines that somehow numbers in the milions in the eyes of terror or the fact that in a region of space devoid of human life, infrastructures like docks and shipyards factories resources extractors and processsors
You know
What you need to actually sustain a modern warfare endeavors
Yet they are able to regularly produce entire invasion fleets always outnumbering an actual galaxy wide spanning empire with actual industrial capabilities
But games workshop attitude towards chaos is like in fantasy
Somehow milions of people live in a place situated north of Siberia and Scandinavia equivalent of the old world (norsca and kislev) in a place literally called chaos wastes on the polar region
A place filled with demons and mutated beast where agriculture is impossibile and where every single roaming tribe eat each other on sight
But somehow they are still capable of amassing armies the size of hundred k if not milions something that only slaves can match and have their “normal tier “ warrior wear elaborate full body plate armour more advanced of what civilized industrial nation can do
What if they turned the Deathwatch into a Legion? It is comprised of all lineages, it is over seen by the Ordo Xenos Inquisition, and it specializes in fighting Xenos. I think if Guilliman wanted a politic' way of bring back one or more legions, then this would be the best in lore rout.
I would allow it only if they loan a few of their Corvus Blackstars to the Raven Guard as much like the 1rst Legion Raven Wing models I feel these suffer from a bad case of "This was literally designed for a specific legion, probably by Corvus Corax himself" but wound up in the hands of other people. I have always said "Why do the White Scars and Raven Guard even have a rivalry? If anything the White Scars should be beefing with the Raven Wing and having bike races."
It sounds good on paper until you realise you would have the full might of a Legion under the direct control of the INQUISITION. No thank you.
I'm honestly surprised Abbadon hasn't used the opportunity of Leviathan to defend humanity. It would make a dramatic statement and sway Imperial citizens to the side of Chaos potentially.
No way. Abaddon isn't an anti-hero. He takes what he wants. He doesn't care about winning hearts and minds of the sheep.
"It is not enough that I must succeed, the Imperium must also fail." -Abbadon, probably
Hmm...not sure why RUclips deleted my comment. I'll just retype it.
Abbadon doesn't care about the thoughts of normal people or public relations. He takes what he wants. He is not interested in winning the hearts and minds of Imperium Citizens.
Abbadon is a puppet of chaos gods. Shadow in the warp severs connection.
Abbadon is:
-not smart enough to think about that
-wouldn't bother because he think the strong must crush the weak
-probably busy elsewhere
The Lion could potentially be the one to bring about a semi legion sized force with all of the existing Dark angels successor chapters the new Primaris chapters and now with the Risen joining, he could easily be sitting on a force of over 15,000 marines
Easily. Theres at least 30 unforgiven chapters pre-Primaris.
@@astormofwrenches5555 Legions used to be about 100,000+ Marines!
@@majorgrumpybum3161Correct. They all used to fluctuate somewhere around 100k with the exceptions being the Ultramarines who I believe mightve sat somewhere around 250k (and why Horus feared them so much) and next in distant second the Word Bearers I believe.
@@jmlaw8888 The Legions started at around 10,000 and then grew. Some, like the Ultramarines grew massively. But yeah most were between 100,000 to 200,000 strong. Word Bearers, and potentially Alpha legion, secretly grew rapidly in preparation for the Heresy but it is said the Word Bearers were really straining their system/gene seed to make it happen and had to lower standards. No one had a stable growth path like the Ultramarines. They had like 250,00 and were not even particularly trying to grow fast until post Calth and the Heresy.
I think the legions are just straight up better than the chapters, and thats by design, many legions, like the Whitescars, were very good at acting in smaller groups scattered across the galaxy. I think the breakup of the legions made the imperium weaker to any external threat, but we have to remember that back then, right after the heresy, the Imperium had pretty much total dominion of the galaxy, so they could afford to lose some ofensive power to prevent internal threats like a second heresy.
Now tho, with all the endtimes big threats sprouting up, the legions are needed agin, its that simple.
A Legion of Imperial Fists defending against the bugs would be EPIC!.
It would. Honestly, I can't decide if the Imperial Fists or the Iron Hands would be a better Legion choice. The Fists would definitely do better when defending stationary structures and fortifications but the Hands would be far better at counter attacks and just offence in general (plus they have more fire-power than any other Legion which is always a help against the Space Bugs of Death).
I would LOVE to see Roboute Guilliman reinstate the legions, even if only temporarily. In fact, I'd love to see more legions created. I also think they should have dedicated elements that mirror the Orphans of War, in their mixed capabilities, small unit tactics, etc.
It's the kind of job the Emperor would have sent the Lion and his Legion to deal with. Sadly the Loss of the skills and stuff they had had has long gone.
He would have sent two complimentary legions for a threat so serious. Dark angels and space wolves together would be a sure victory
I prefer the legions but by efficiency it should have kept the chapters at their original capacity of 10,000 members and not only 1,000 with a system of constant communication between the various chapters so as to be able to reinforce in case of need
Great video Wolf Lord! Personally I would genuinely love to see an incident where the the entire Black Templars chapter are called by Helbrecht to face a Tyranid hive fleet that would be something glorious! ⚔️
Primaris legions would be nice to see but a legion of Custodians..... that would be a sight to see.
I think the chapters are fine as long as they can come together in legion strength and command structure quickly for large threats. Just as the modern military does. In my unit we deployed as individual platoons but could easily come together as a company, battalion or even regiment size force whenever necessary.
And could of course be attached to divisions or even entire corps as the mission demanded.
The chapters have distinct individual strengths that could play their part in the mission. Legions were powerful but typically were one type solution force, having legion strength with multiple chapters capable of conducting multiple different combat roles is a strength in its own.
I think Guilliman will rethink his strategy at some point. He will have to. The HH 2.0 is a small concern when compared to Leviathan.
I predict that, in the case where G-man has to pivot back into a legion system, they will be able to push back against the hive fleets just enough that things start to look hopeful, then we'll get Heresy 2: Abaddon Boogaloo.
Honestly, I think it would be kind of cool to see a reformation of the legions while still maintaining the chapter system. The Legion's would serve the purpose of powerful offensive swords, whereas the chapters would serve as defensive shields.
I think a mix of chapters who can response fast and legions to act as a hammer would work better, one could get there fast and deal with what's going until a legion could arrive
Well I think that when it comes to the Tyranids. To deal with the Hive fleet you need the strenght of the Legions and the Imperal guard to act as both the Hammer and the Anvil. But the Hive fleet also useing geanstealer cults let the chapters Hunt them down and to blind the hive.
I listen to your videos everyday while im working they get me through some hard days you're the best.
With the return of Gulliman and the Lion, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. They can command as many Chapters as they need to counter the threat, and Dante himself proved that the Astartes are still capable of acting as a Legion when the need arrived while also keeping them dispersed (which also improve survivability and rapid response capability) when don't. You already have the benefits from both world with the current system.
Ultimately irrelevant. At this point you need to send a legions-worth of chapters just to hold back one invasion front.
Not quite. In Devastation of Baal, a lot of the Blood Angels successors clashed due to ideological differences.
A legion would have way better coherence
@@nonyabuissness5128they argued but in the end worked and died together - it doesn’t matter how the food is organized when it ends up in the stomach
@@nonyabuissness5128 I meant numerically. At Baal you had what, 30-40k marines at once place and they still nearly lost.
My post was chapters-sized forces have become irrevalant against the Tyranids.
@@ruinerblodsinn6648 nids would agree, nom nom
Good thing proper legions were atleast twice the size of that, even the smaller ones @@JcBravo8
I think the unforgiven have the answer for this question. Chapters dedicated for specific roles/tasks and when united can bring forth the might of a legion. Add the hexagrammaton into the mix and you've got an adaptable legion that can counter any situation.
I've proposed a structure that would have worked and covered both sets of possibilities.
My proposed core unit of the Astartes, post-Heresy, is the Chapter. It consists of 10,000 marines, broken up into ten battalions of a thousand marines (the only exception is the Chapters of the First Founding, which have proven their loyalty by being allowed to maintain 20,000 marines in ten battalions of two thousand).
In theory, the Chapter deploys to fight wars, but it’s usually a single battalion or two to a war zone. Some of these vary, of course-between iconoclast Chapters like the Space Wolves (who might be getting up to their previous legion size…) or the Minotaurs (who ONLY deploy as a Chapter). But, a battalion is a complete combat unit for the Astartes-they have ships, armor, equipment, etc, etc, etc…to do everything.
Chapters recruit as per the current lore, and they don’t stop recruiting when they hit their nominal 10,000 marine limit. Instead, they keep growing until they hit 15,000 marines. Once they do, the Chapter is split in half. The most experienced officers and most junior enlisted remain as the Chapter. The least experienced officers and the most experienced enlisted will be sent out to accomplish something. Perhaps join a Crusade, maybe take a territory only brought back into the Imperium of Man, maybe fill a hole somewhere. Once they accomplish this task, the new splinter takes a Chapter name and becomes a Chapter of their own.
(The First Founding Chapters have to grow to 30,000 before they split. The “new” Chapter of 15,000 will only operate at half recruiting rate until they fall to the 10,000 marine limit.
The blood angles numbered 30.000 for the defence of baal if they had even a fraction more it would've been a slaughterhouse
It is blood angels. They are basically 2-3 marines as one during rage and etc. we can say that we have 100k marines on baal.
@@BloodyArchangelus well yes and no sadly, most the time they fought them sane but by the end of it there were only around 1.000 to 2.000 blood angles plus successors left which then all went badshit🤣
@@mitchelarchbold9219 they don’t need black rage to be powerful. Dante under thrist killed 6 marines by bare hands. Black rage just amplifies their abilities. And I ve read dov a lot of times.
A couple of points I would like to make. The Blood Angels took the (near) Legion approach. The Tyranids had numbers beyond count, a total disregard for losses. Had not Kabanda interfered & Mephiston been diverted, the Blood Angels & sucessor Chapters might have faired better. The Ultra Marines suffered horribly during the Tyranid invasion of Macragge. A major concentration of force is a good tactic, but the right one?
A focus on the naval side of things i think would be a surperior approach. Every ship the tyranids lose is potentially a loss they can't replace or will have to at cost. I dont know how long it would take the hive fleet to replace losses but if they can be stalled in the void, or even forced into retreat, there may still be hope
I am the 1st. I am the lion.
I love terminators and I love hell blasters.
With the Lion back, he just has to say, enact the dreadwing protocol. 😂
Do the Legions in question possess the same logistical elements that were available to the Legionnes Astartes?
my take on the idea at hand is quite simple honestly. there should be only three legions and many more chapters, and it could make sense from how gw has played things out so far. now the ultra marines are a prime example of a wonder set up for a lot of chapters, and being able to adapt, respond and deploy all quite fast would be good for the idea of chapters. I also think salamanders, iron hands, raven guard, all act better as chapters. the space wolves the dark angels should be legions and blood angels or imperial fist could go to both ways. so have legions and chapters, different responsibility for different forces. also the fact that those who would genuinely be more effective as a legion force are the more "fuck the codex" and have there own books would work out well.
... What's ideal is a meshing of both chapters as well as legions (perhaps a ratio of one legion per fifty or so chapters?! 🤔). Allowing chapters to respond quickly while the legions can be brought to bear on greater threats.
I like this idea, where all the first founding chapters can return to legion strength
@@totalNERD-eo7wx ... Like what Rogal Dorn had in mind
Even during the great crusade the legions where broken up into smaller battle groups. In most cases different legion battle groups worked together for a diverse expertice
It would make sense to me to have a nodal approach to legions. Each segmentum gets a 100k strong legion . based at the segmentum capital or somewhere else with excellent transport links. The legion is kept together and trains together. Segmentum Solar get four legions. One for itself. The other as ready reinforcements for the the other segmentum legions. This is in addition to the existing chapters.
Yes, its still woefully lacking in what really needed. But we are no going to magic up several hundred MILLION SM to cover whats needed. 800k-to 1M new SM for my legions is doable in the current setting. As, unlike Cawls Primaris, Its done with the full backing and resource's of the Imperium. The new legions should NOT be spinoffs from existing chapters. They should be all new formations. Saves on any old baggage and shenanigan's.
As the Imperium seems to be able to magic thousands of new ships out of the Emporers back pocket whenever needed for a crusade. The new legions could use several, basically Ark Mechnicus vessels to help with their logistics. So, even if cut off. A legion in combat still has some organic ability to manufacture replacement armour, Bolters and ammunition. Ideally, the legion would have lots of bulk transports that are not Strike Cruisers. Real troop ships with good defences and speed. The Imperial Navy is the one needing warships. During the Heresy, its glossed over how they were transported. Even Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers were hard to manufacture even then.
The thought experiment of 'what would Guilliman have done if he'd known of the Tyranids at the Time of the codex.' How would he prepare for an existential threat that won't land a blow for 9k year?
I understand why Gilman broke up the legions, but in hindsight you have so many Legions of Destruction down upon the Imperium where chapters are nice but an entire Legion. You do the math.
Sillyman already has legions of primaris stashed all over the galaxy.
I think the answer is to increase the size of chapters to what they were during the Great Crusade: 10,000 Astartes.
Well the nimble Tyranids would just kite the legions around.
At the same time the chapters would just be overwhelmed.
The Astartes will have to adapt beyond both
Definitely prefer the legions. It would be a great story trying to tell all the chapters that they all fall under their primarch’s legion. That would not sit well with Flesh Tearers and definitely not the Black Templars. Great story to tell in trying to reform the legions that could lead to its own civil war.
Great topic. In my opinion, the Legions would be better at dealing with the Tyranids. Which legions? The Dark Angels. They are literally the monster slayers of the legions, and they had access to Unification Era/ Dark Age of Technology weapons. The Imperium would end up with a few less worlds, but leave an Eskaton at the head of every Tyranid tendril and watch the Xenos be beaten back. Combine the Dark Angels with the Death Guard against the Tyranids, and they would be wiped.
I Didn't think of the Iron Tenth until you said it but now I think that may be the single best force of Loyalists to handle a HiveFleet. Given their penchant for tech and that they are the closest to a machine of war, figurative and literal, I think they would be perfect Legion to use as a counter. Sure you can add the Lion and his Dark Age tech.
You forget one of the main functions of splitting the Legions. If a full legion falls to chaos again, it would be a catastrophe. If a chapter falls to chaos, it can be dealt with.
Aren't the entire Thousand Suns legion on Prospero at the moment (less Ahriman and some)? I feel like a conflict of ideas between the united front of a legion vs. the strikeforces of chapters could be played out in a story where the Tyranids represent an existential threat great enough to united Magnus and the Imperium for a very short time. Maybe not in an organized fashion, but the disorganized chaos of "oh, wtf are the Thousand Suns doing here?? They're not fighting us???" type of thing. Seems like Prospero's interests (and Magnus' about humanity's ascension as a psychic race) would be very much threatened otherwise. Also, chaos vs. Tyranids? Heck yeah.
GW are gonna release all the primarchs eventually, except ferrus and Horus.
Rogal Dorn shall return, realise the mistake of chapters, but not admit he was wrong because he’s stubborn. He’ll active the last wall protocol and unofficially reform a legion. Defeat the big bad of the edition he’d be released in.
The main advantage I see of legion strength forces is the concentration of warships. If the swarm can be slowed or even halted in the void, every loss they suffer is one they will have to replace at cost. Hive ships are incredibly big and tough but they are not invincible, even the loss of one is a tremendous blow. I know it is much easier said than done to defeat the xenos in space combat but it is something we have to consider. Denying the enemy access to resources is one of the best ways to slow down or outright defeat an enemy that cares little for its losses
What if the answer is both. You combine certain chapters(7-10) that compliment the others strengths/weakness into a Legion. That way the "Legion" can a multitude of threats and be more effective.
A plus would be moral amongst the Chapters. Learning to fight together and prosecuting campaigns would form new bonds.
Imagine 10-12 "Legions" of diverse SM ready for whatever the imperium needs.
More Space Marines are needed to combat the threats of the Imperium. I comprehend the whole stagnant grim-dark esthetic, but they gotta get over that for the sake of the narrative.
Warhammer is nobledark since 8edition
Each chapter has 1000 space marines + possibly 200 initiates and specialists.
If you assume that 20 successor chapters responded to Dante's plea that's 20,000 marines.
By rights they should have lost so there was a heck of a lot of plot armour that allowed the Blood Angels to win.
What do you think about increasing the chapters size from 1000 to 5000 or 10000
Answer: use both
Chapters are great for rapid response, legions are great for large scale deployment
The pre-heresy legions would do better than if all the successor chapters came together now for several reasons.
1. Pre-Heresy all the Primarchs were still about so legendary warriors were led by a Demi God which is massively significant.
2. Much higher numbers to call upon even the lesser legions like Night Lords still had decent numbers.
3. Unified under one command structure so everyone knew their part but also despite some having rivalries within the Legion they all followed one voice.
4. The uniting of a legion would also bring about a number of the expedition fleets together so it wouldn't just be the legion fighting but a massive army of non-astartes and more importantly a hell of a lot more Titans.
So to summarise Guilliman's chapters structure have done extremely well to even stand a chance against the Tyranid menace
Ultimately the legions were meant to work in concert. The best compromise is the deathwatch. Which I argue is similar to the primarche project in miniature
they just need to send in Sly Marbo.
Honestly chapters are actually better. Because of the changes to space marine recruitment post hersey as well as changes to training, the average firstborn adeptus astartes is far better than an average legionary. Legions have many weaknesses, the primary ones being logistical, inflexible battle doctrine, high attrition and the need for a primarch to lead them. The problem with the tyranids is that you ultimately cannot go on the offensive against them, which the legions were designed for, as the tyranids don't hold planets, you are forced to fight on the defensive as they come to planets and if you do go on the offensive, to attack their hive ships, small elite kill teams are more efficient than large formations. And this is where chapters excel, if coordinating with local imperial guard and PDF forces, a company or two can hold out for quite some time against a hive fleet as evidence with the tyranid assault on Taris Ultra. And because of the smaller chapter formations, deployment of assets is much quicker than a legions deployment. Its ultimately a moot point, the Imperium cannot support legion sized formations, they can barely supply the current chapters with power armor, vehicles and ships not to mention that the Imperium cannot mass produce geneseed anymore and needs to harvest it. So chapters are the way to go whether you like it or not, after the scouring no legion could have been supported.
Seems most legions have a protocol in place to reassemble the chapters. The only legion i could think not able to return to meaningful strength right now are the space wolves. For all we know there are enough of legions 2 and 11 to pop up in a bind.
If there are roughly 1000 chapters. They could all offer 200 marines creating a legion of 200,000 with the combined strength of all. Therefore keeping a quick strike force in the chapters over the imperium imperium and a sledgehammer force to take on bigger threats.
obviously with both primarch and legion....the 30k crusade set up might body a whole fleet instead of staving off tendrils. Without primarchs the chapters offer more adaptability that can spread. You look at what individual marines become and they are way more than what a rank and file space marine is on paper.
The space marines are the greatest threat in the end because ...yes they have unending tactics. They become leaders of chaos warbands, creators of NuMen, wtf is Mephiston , Cypher or Ahriman, or explain the Grey Knight to me... who beat a primarch... demonic prince primarch
waves upon waves of enemies is a great tactic but I think the Orcs should get the win if GW ever ends the Tyranid faction, it would be fitting.
GW needs to add zero on all of their space marine numbers for them to make sense in my opinion 1,000 members for chapter is kind of ridiculous
The Legions hands down sheerly for logistics and cohesion. Now if you get 20k marines together you've got 20 Chapter Masters that need to have a constant gene seed measuring contest. The Legions could field 200k men with a clear chain of command and unity of tactical doctrines.
The Chapters are the most egregious thing Guilliman ever did, especially as he had Cawl secretly creating him multiple legions worth of Primaris that were all directly under his control.
That implies that the Legions could keep that manpower over the 10k years of degradation. And when then, some legions would have less Marines than the BA and their successors did at Baal. 200k Marines is the kinda number that only Pre-Heresy Dark Angels and Ultramarines could boast.
The Chapters were perfect for what the Imperium needed for the last few thousand years before the nids showed up.
The whole point of the legions is to be an unstoppable offensive to reclaim the galaxy for humanity. Do bear in mind that it wasn't just the legions that were involved in conquering planets. They worked closely in tandem with titan legions, solar auxillia, and naval elements in combined arms warfare. Most importantly, the primarchs were able to utilize these elements successfully because they were demigods that had the tactical and strategic brilliance that made them unstoppable on the battlefield.
The Devastation of Baal perfectly portrayed the reality of trying to bring a legion back together. Dante was barely able to get the different Blood Angels chapters to work together due to how distant they have become and they didn't even come close to the size of any of the other legions prior to the Horus Heresy. Can you imagine Marnius Calgar trying to do the same thing with the Ultramarine successor chapters before Guiliman returned? The only legion I can see getting its chapters back together would be the Dark Angels and that's because they never really split apart in the first place.
I think we might see this in the Dark angles
Increase the size of the second founding chapters to 10,000 space marines. That's about 40 to 50 chapters so 400,000 to 500,000 spaces marines. All other chapters to 2,000 space marines. The second founding chapter would still be smaller than legions but would react faster than a fully legion, and would serve as a core if larger formations were needed.
Why not both? Independent chapters with segmentum legions for larger threats.
People really forget that Legions had Chapters/Orders/Exploration fleet depening what legion they where in.
A good example with the Dark angels they had Orders that similar to Chapters. In all honesty GW can bring back the legion with out messing with people Chapters/Homebrew. They will just be categories in what legion are in and what order/Chapter/Exploration fleet.
As in a sense they can send 1000 marines into a battle instead of a Squad. Because they can reproduce legionaries faster than ever
Rally to the Legion banner. Stand with your brothers.
Full legion + some chapters still active for fast response
Necrons are going to require more than a Chapter. Just imagine Imperial fists holding ground, while Crimson Fists and Black Templars lead withering direct action. I do not many forces of being able to deal with the Sons of Dorn gathered together.
I believe this comes down to organising of scale.
10 chapters working independently against an opponent isn't as effective or powerful as 10.000 marines under a singular command-structure.
The Imperial military is fundamentally design to prevent singular Command structures from forming... which has upsides and downsides.
1000 marines is simply too small to handle major enemies. However you can't unscramble an egg. Just have to make do with whats available
I don't see why we can't have both, take the chapters and reform the legions for large scale threats while allowing the Chapter Masters to retain the ability to command their chapters so that the chapter size threats need to be handled
Ultimately, legions would be better. As tooth to tail entirely being marines is always going to function more effectively than a chapter that is relying on multiple elements to allow them to engage key targets on interest. But chapters function well as the imperial war machine can sustain engagements against tyranids whilst they.do their thing. But the major problem comes about as the space marines are ultimately relying on various elementss to work together to set the conditionss for their strategy.
In the United State we have the US Army and the Marine Corps. The army is the sledgehammer, and the Marines are the war hammer. Legion and chapter. Quick Reaction Force (Marines) and Large Scale Strategic
Force (Army). The situation being faced decides which one is better.
It wasn't just the Ultramarines,
There were millions of Ultramar planetary defence forces that died.
Just like the 300 Spartans, they don't mention 4000 Greeks who also fought and died in the battle.
Plot armour at its best.
More than 1 Legion sized force will be needed
Using legion size is a risk may lose if they need to defeat the tyranids emperium eldar and necrons must consolidate a force
A legion has a better chance higher numbers more equipment and better logistics than they do now ( chapters)
But the problem being is legions tended tp use force and shock and awe the brute force works until the tyranids adapt something that most legions didnt do it its a...its a 50/50 to me so many factors play into it but i do love these mental exercises
the legions wouldnt the dark angels fleet with its dark age of technology tech would, the lion noted in one of the heresy books he could have beat all the other legions combined in a war based on his fleet and his dark age of technology tech
I wonder if the current Imperium can logistically support multiple Legions? I agree, the Legions are the better counter to the Hive Fleets but the Imperium was way more efficient during the Great Crusade era.
Papa smurf had 300k primaris marines.
@@BloodyArchangelus 3 Legions worth is still multiple 100k marines off from old. The Bobby G better start opening more spreadsheets
this lore about 100k marines in legion is dumb as f8ck. It just makes marines useless, coz they just stomp everything with those numbers and IOM should be dead after HH ended and war of beast came. coz no marines. we had 2 mil marines in lore, where are they? we had damn only 25k marines on baal and they were op as F*ck. gw should return to old numbers of 10k legions.@@SupaGooby
Whilst seeing a fully fledged legion would be something else, it would not be possible without a new sundering. 10 000 years of independently operating cannot be cast aside so easily. Much like in real world military it is very easy and cheap to get rid of a capability, but very difficult, expensive and time consuming to get it back. Re-building the legions now would be nigh impossible. I would instead suggest increasing the overall size of the chapters from the codex limit of 1000 to something between 6000 and 20 000 Astartes. Even increasing the size would be a monumental task considering how long it takes to produce space marines.
If the current 40k had Legions with proper leaders or the Primarchs themselves. No fallen to chaos etc. The same Legions from old.
Tyranids would be absolutely wrecked.
Edit - Same scenario. Old Legions. Before Horus Heresy. No corruption etc. Vs Necrons? Thoughts
Guillimans statesmanship must be use to talk to eldary and necrons to fight tyranids before emperium silent king face the tyranids and manage to defeat them since necrons has no organic material to regenerate
Unfortunately I think this question is a moot point. To discount the Legions ability to act in the modern 40k manner of chapters in a more defensive role is confirmation bias based on what they have now. It has zero bearing on whether a larger, more well supported, supplied and logistically capable organisation would be able to dispatch smaller strike forces to deal with localised threats. If anything, legion would simply be responsible for a far, far wider area of operation than a chapter. The breaking of the Legions was an act made out of fear, a knee jerk reaction to a temporary problem that was a poor decision for a forethinking empire builder like Guilliman. Do you think that only thr loyal Legions would be left as they were, maybe with only 10000 marines in each? The Legions had no logistical ceiling and by the time of thr 41st milennium may have had millions of brethren.
This also totally discounts a Legion or multiple Legions ability to completely eradicate a threat, not just contain it or drive it off, reducing the logistical and strategic considerations that plague the 41st milenniums imperium.
YES bring back the legions and then we will see the pure unbridled domination of a Legion of the Minotaurs protectors of holy Terra.
The advantage for a legion is better coordination in battle.
Blood Angel is a legion now. Dante was always a trusted figure and a living primarch of echo. Even primarchs feel this echo in Dante.
In my mind a legion should come with its Primarch, while chapters don't. Given how much of a power multiplier a Primarch would be, obviously the legion would win in that case. But a legion without their daddy is no better than just many chapters together.
Legion of fists and iron warriors... nothing is getting trhough that.
Death guard would be a good counter. Tough and bog them down
Using the ironhands will end up like tyrant primus tyranids adapt so we need a force that vast can evolve its strategy for me mixing imperium eldary and the necrons specially necrons they thier weapons is fit to fight even large tyranids
i'm thinking everyone is forgetting 1 important fact as powerful as the legions were space marines have never been the backbone of imperial power each legion was supported by the imperial army while the legions got all the credit they did not pacify every planet during the crusade the imperial navy and armies did most of that. even the legions had standing divisions of troops from their homeworlds.
LAST WALL PROTOCOL ENGAAAAAAAGEDDDDD!!!!!!
Like I always said, both Gilliman and Dorn were correct about splitting the legions. Gilliman was correct then and Dorn is correct now.
The chapters were good most of the time in the 10K years. However the Harrowing, War of the Beast, Necrons, Tyranids and Black Crusades the Legions would have beat them all except maybe the Necrons depending on how early they caught them waking.
Easy, send the Lion and the Unforgiven. You have a Primarch, legion and chapters all at the same time
Here's my two cents. I think disbanding the legions was a stupid mistake lore wise but I understand the reasons for it both in universe and from Games Workshop's view.
I think, if not bring back the legions, they should enlarge the size limitations on Chapters. I think 5,000 or 10,000 would be a good size both in universe and out. I argue it allows players to still have their special snowflakes and freedom to personalize whatever chapter they use. I think it will reconcile a lot of inconsistencies in lore, art, and stories. It will give chapters a boon to fight threats like the tyranids while still limiting the damage they could do if they turned traitor. They would still be a maneuverable and elite but would also be afforded more flexibility and options.
Hell, at 10,000 you could call them legions and divide each legion into chapters like it was in the old days.
i think each chapter should be brought up to legion strength ie blood angels legion then flesh tearers legion and so on
It really comes down to bandwidth. The only one who is truly capable of commanding a legion is a Primarch. That’s why they were created.
Some where between the two
I see no reason why a Legion couldn’t be dispersed to act like chapters but have the ability to rally for tyrannid like threats. The chapters worked for 10,000 years. To reverse the decision doesn’t mean he was wrong, it just means times have changed the playing field.
Many chapters have been wiped out by the Tyranids. What happens if a legion gets wiped out? It’s irreplaceable
The legions get all the press but Marines were never the hammer. The guard is 90% of the Emperors strength. They need to start showing some guard victories of the Nids.
That said, I don't think a hive fleet would have enjoyed a fight with the pre-fall Death Guard. I can't imagine a better weapon to fight bugs that mass phosphex
the tyranids are a fleet based problem, so just let the necrons deal with them