@@frolickinglions I guessed something like that, just hoping that they might be interested in making their own discount code. I'm well used to books being released months to years after "the world" in Australia, and not being eligible for discounts.
@mozismobile I just remembered I'm on Woodslane's mailing list. They have a code for 20% off autism & neurodiversity books until 30 April 2024 for Autism Acceptance Month. Code: AUTISM20.
The number one trauma of being autistic is being misunderstood. Our social environment is a huge factor in psychological safety, but being misunderstood by the very person you are reaching out to to help you with that is severely traumatic
Yeah. Just had that happen online - not with a formal therapist, but someone I was sincerely seeking help from regardless. They asserted I was "being a baby" "looking for a handout" because I _wanted very detailed explanation of what they were saying._ Apparently my repeated asks for details and clarifying questions just didn't go over well with them even though every single last ask was meant exactly as it was written. I wasn't looking for them to "do the work", I was looking for them to _COMMUNICATE,_ and they didn't want to do that.
I’ve felt extremely isolated throughout my whole life because of how much people have misunderstood me when I’ve tried communicating with them. It’s gotten to a point where if someone tells me they understand me, I have a doubting voice in my mind that says they don’t.
@@shimrrashai-rc8fq that is classic. "That autistic person is asking too many questions and I am mad!" This is why you need other autistic people for guidance. NTs don't understand why we need so much input. We need more input, more time and energy to process and more space for output. Because we have more neurons and more synapses on each one. They think we are exhausting and being difficult and challenging their authority. And we "don't understand how we are impacting" them. They think we are lacking empathy for them exactly because they are lacking empathy for us
@@ambassadoroftheandromedagalaxy "They made almost no effort to understand you, so why keep trying to reach out to them? stop trying to be understood, stop trying to explain yourself to people who aren't anything like you..." This really resonated. Thank you for sharing.
Therapists not getting any training in autism is like medical doctors not getting any training in nutrition. It's one of the most important things for them to know!
And yet both are true I don't expect to get help from a therapist and I don't expect to get nutritional advice from a doctor. It's a very sad Society we're living in.
My psychiatrist has always wanted me to "feel my feelings" and told me rationalising stuff won't work and was so surprised when it did work for me. Thinking about feelings *is* how I feel them, those aren't two oposing things.
I hadn't heard it put that way. I get so frustrated. I heard about the tarantula study via Dr. Megan Anna Neff (AuDHDer, herself). Something she shared convinced me to work on "identifying feelings" (sigh of resolution).
OMGGGG even my therapist said thinking about it is part of processing, sad ur therapist didn’t think of that 🙃🙃🙃. But yes as soon as I started to logical my feelings it got extremely easy to emotionally regulate. Now it’s more about learning what I can’t handle and prepare for that but also know that I can’t plan my life away there will be things I can’t control so I prefer to focus on what I can control to set up a better future when I lived my life doing what my adhd side says too
"No amount of exposure is going to reduce our physical sensations" I've been trying for roughly 75 years now to reduce my anxiety about socializing by socializing more. (Quick background: degrees in psychology, including studying conditioning). I self-diagnosed as having autism about a year ago and have spent a huge chunk of my time recalling and reconsidering events in my life, putting them in this new context of having autism. I, also, came to this conclusion about socializing and anxiety. Now I work on putting my energy into communicating my needs and limits about socializing; statements such as "Thanks for the invitation; I don't do parties" and "I need to finish up now, the noise is bothering me." Works a helluva lot better than trying to desensitize myself.
Yeah it took me 40 years to even realize that socializing was a choice and it was my choice. It's life changing. I dont socialize at all unless I feel I will receive substantial benefit from it. I don't do it out of routine, or obligation, or for the benefit of others.
Same, putting myself into uncomfortable situations as I was always being told I needed to step out of my comfort zone, doing things I hated just to please others, what a waste of time and energy that was.
Personally as someone who has had some success with reducing the impact of sensations, I think the thing people are missing is that it's not just having the sensations around, you also need to be able to integrate them, you need to be present, understand the sensation, feel it, and be able to understand that it's not threatening. But in an autistic brain and nervous system that is firing so much and already overwhelmed it's likely you have to instead actually go 10 steps back, start from the beginning, and learn to even be present with small sensations and feel and understand them rather than introducing new ones and hope that magically makes someone get used to it. The issue I see is that the wide perception of what is our comfort zone and the reality are ofen widely different. My experience has been that things others would label being our comfort zone is already outside of it, outside the growth zone, in the panic zone where you can't really learn. So growth doesn't happen with adding things, but substracting from it. That being said, I am not sure how far this works. It might just be because anxiety makes sensory stuff worse. I haven't had even improvement.
Yes, self regulation is a crazy thought to me. I have chronic pain, and I am always walking on glass. My Threshold is very small/thin for stress, then I have all the regular stressed of being an adult, a parent to an Autistic teenager, and finding out if I am Autistic. All these things eventually Elevate my pain leaving me bedridden. 😢
"Don't let therapy convince yourself that you cannot be the best judge of your own internal experience" This hit home! I am AuDHD. 3 therapies did nothing for me and the fourth harmed me. I ordered the book before completing the video. Thank you for all your validation! So much appreciated.
It's amazing how, even though we can vary so much in our traits, I feel more connected to those in the autistic community than I have in others (ADHD prevalent groups without autism).
I realise it is not completly true that all therapies did nothing for me, in one therapy the therapist directed me to look into ADHD, a topic which she herself knew nothing about, but had heard the term from another client.
@@sylviak824 That sounds about right. I think the only therapist who helped me was one who told me "maybe this is just the way you are" in response to me telling her approximately one thousand issues that I have with functioning and being social. Completely useless but at least not wrong!
I'm an autistic counsellor and this episode is so validating. Particularly the trouble with the whole "feel your feelings" thing. I've struggled with that immensely and was constantly criticised during my degree by lecturers for supposedly not being willing to be vulnerable or delve deep enough (when in the role of "client" in triads). It made me feel like I was broken, and the embarrassment and fear that this caused me sent my anxiety through the roof. Even with the knowledge that I am autistic, I felt so ashamed for what was clearly perceived by my teachers as a defecit. Still unpacking that as I navigate my practice. I so appreciate this wonderful conversation about such an important topic 💜
I’ve always struggled to identify the feeling in the moment, much less to feel the feeling itself. Feelings are so completely overwhelming that it makes it hard to function
I too am late diagnosed and also a therapist. I had the same experiences in training, so reading your comment is very validating to me. In addition to not being "emotionally focused" enough, I was often told that I'm "too pushy" because of my tendency to speak directly and with my genuine voice (instead of the sugary sweet "mother therapist" voice lol). Highly doubt a male clinician would have been told the same! I will add that emotionally-focused therapy (which is what I practice) can be impactful and useful to ND clients, *if* it's offered without underlying assumptions that this is "right way" to process our feelings. So many of us struggle with interoception, which is the ability to know what we feel in our bodies. Building interoceptive awareness helps us better care for our physical needs (hunger cues, for instance), recognize relationship red flags, recognize sensory overwhelm, and all that good stuff. Helping my clients become more attuned (and find strategies to tolerate) the physical sensations in their bodies is a big part of my work, but I also know that sometimes people need to process more logically and analytically and that it's not my job to dictate when or how people experience their feelings. Thank you for this video and all of the work you do on this channel. You were part of my process of discovering my Autism and it has opened up a whole new beautiful world for me
Every time i've tried therapy it has boiled down to being told I think incorrectly, like yeah this is what i've heard my entire life and part of the problem. Thanks for nothing
@@Catlily5 thank you! Some of us are (a) autistic and (b) person-centred, and that has nothing whatsoever in common with clumsy CBT delivered by non-autistic therapists.
I have had several therapists ask me, sarcastically but I think well intentionally, "what is so special about you?" when I tried to tell them I felt different from everyone and that the things that work for other people aren't going to work for me. It gave me the most helpless, frustrated feeling. Now I know why and it was such a relief to find an explanation, though I had to figure it out myself.
Nothing like expressing that you feel like you are different from other people, only to be told everyone feels like that sometimes, but it's not true. And yet the experiences others describe I don't relate to, and the experiences I describe others don't relate to. So how exactly am I not meaningfully different from everyone else? Learning I was AuDHD helped so much, because it validated that feeling. I *am* different from most people. It's not a distortion or a whiny teenage thing. Most people's brains simply don't work like mine.
When I was in third grade and complained that I didn't understand what the teacher was trying to explain she told me "you're not the center of the universe, the world does not revolve around you." I was devastated, this being the first time anyone had ever said anything like that to me. They had no idea I was autistic.
@@janicewinsor4793 wtf kind of response is that? teachers are supposed to help their students understand, not treat them like they're being self-centered for wanting help understanding.
I tried therapy exactly once. All the same issues people are talking about here applied to my experience, pretty much. Probably the only reason it didn't make things worse is that I got very frustrated pretty early in the process and quit wasting my money/stopped going. So many therapists are weirdly incapable of dealing with the neurodivergent. Edit: I'm glad to see so many in my age range (over 50) finally being able to put a name to our situation even if we're still trying to deal with it. When I was a kid, there was very little understanding of the spectrum, and if you weren't so debilitated you were nonresponsive, you'd just get written off as lazy, distracted, or otherwise just not trying.
I find it rather shocking that psychologists, psychiatrists, and other front line mental health professionals don't seem to know much about neurodivergence. Its like a general practitioner physician not knowing the warning signs for cancer. Sure they aren't the right person to treat it, but they would be the first person you would see who might refer you to a specialist who can. They were the first people I went to, since in my perception I had "PTSD, depression, and anxiety", you know, like most neurodivergent people. I even told them later in the process "I'm almost certain I have PTSD and also something else." They were absolutely no help in finding out what "something else" was, and actively discouraged me from pursuing it, even though I wasn't responding to treatments (which they seemed to blame me for, rather than exploring other avenues). I'll certainly grant them that my PTSD/military trauma/complex grief/survivor's guilt were hiding some of the more subtle issues, but once that was cleared away and there were still problems, I really think the response should have been something better than "but you should be cured" (implied), "people don't get diagnosed with all sorts of things" (direct quote), "you are a help-rejecting complainer" (direct quote). I "sElF dIaGnOsEd", got myself assessed against advice (at great expense), and got immediately diagnosed and treated for ADHD (possible AuDHDer, still getting re-assessed). I've also been "living as though I'm autistic" and managing sensory stimuli etc. I'm doing so much better now, as my "treatment resistant" depression and anxiety have greatly subsided, likely caused by untreated ADHD and powering through sensory over-stimulation. I apparently have an heroic capacity to damage myself by "toughing things out" and I've been learning to actually take care of myself. Neurodivergent self care is not the same as neurotypical self care. I don't think I've ever been this healthy, physically or psychologically.
I can relate to this so much! I need to get an official ADHD screening because I'm very sure that's part of the picture. I went against my last psychiatrist's recommendation a couple years back and sought an adult autism assessment which showed without a doubt that I was indeed autistic. Ended up firing my psychiatrist because she didn't accept that was what was really going on with my chronic, resistant to medication depression and anxiety. As if I hadn't spent the last 15+ years in and out of therapy and a psychiatrist's office trying all sorts of meds and CBT yet not feeling any better. Also I've recently learned some of my "anxiety" has a physical cause. I have Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. So when I get up from laying down, my heart rate shoots up and I get dizzy, etc. I will also get dizzy and feel ill if I don't get enough salt and water during the day, if I get stressed, and if I get overheated. This was completely missed by doctors for 20 years because they told me I was just anxious.
@thegracklepeck I have a strong suspicion I had POTS through my early forties. Never looked at, even when I ended up in the ER for what they decided was a “simple faint.” Nor when I had trouble with vasovagal syncope in my twenties. My BP has tended up over the years, so I don’t get dizzy standing up any more, but I still feel my anxiety increase when I get up and move around -and I spend too much time sitting as close to fully reclined as I can. All my EKGs have been sitting or lying down (!). I’d like to try a tilt test.
Same. The first therapist I had, when I brought up my executive dysfunction, said to me "No, you can't be that/that's not a part of autism because I've had autistic clients before and they're really structured and organised." He also repeatedly reminded me to make eye contact after he found out I was autistic. He should be glad I'm the flavour of aspie who doesn't really have a problem with eye contact due to habituating over the years, but it was repeatedly irritating and insulting. I''ve gladly changed therapists now. I have someone who works with neurodivergent clients and specialises in my comorbid disorder (OCD), and she's GREAT. I just have trouble trusting her, or trusting anyone with my vulnerability really, due to previous experiences.
Personal experience: I actually find my social skills are getting better after unmasking, because that is actually unlocking a natural learning process where I can test things out and see how they feel and what is productive. I find that I need to tune out all those people talking about what isn't normal enough and focus on my own goals.
I was airing out my struggles with basic social interactions with my therapist, and told that people were reacting to my tone and "attitude." And I was crying 😢 because it made me feel like all my efforts to mask were failing so what was the point
“I’m literally telling you” then they analyze the “deeper meaning” when you tell them you speak literally! I experienced this after my husband died with an AWFUL grief therapist. She admitted she’d never even met an autistic person as far as she knew, let alone treated one. She REFUSED to watch SHORT entertaining videos on communication with us. INSISTED that I was “being sarcastic & dismissive” bc of my “anger over my husband’s death”. I ended up sobbing in frustration, then she felt satisfied that she was somehow helping me by “bringing my emotions to the surface”. She did so much harm during a time when I REALLY needed support.
@@nicolesmith3486 Thank you. I’m glad this video was posted. And that more autistics are entering the field. Hopefully fewer people will go through this in the future.
@@TreeLore I randomly found someone on a reddit sub, who hooked me up with an amazing group. A bunch of complete strangers have become actual friends. I never did find a therapist. Several long time friends stuck around. 99% of my family & my husband’s too are gone and that is for the best. Sold our retirement home & moved. For an introvert I managed to make a few really supportive neighbor friends. We look out for each other. Our dog picked most of them haha! He also pulls me away from some people. He’s overly friendly so I pay attention when dislikes people. That’s unusual for him. People are usually fearful of him bc he’s really huge. They cross the street & then he flops onto his back and waves his long legs like he’s a large bug, jumps back up & wiggles his behind & tail at them & most will laugh. But some people cause his fur to stand up for no reason I can tell & he pulls me away HARD. I pay attention & follow him.
I am a 55 year-old late diagnosed Autistic. I've spent most of my life in therapy trying desperately to find out what was wrong with me that made life so recurrently difficult for me! I read every self help book on the planet and I've found it hard to click with many therapists, many who I felt knew less about psychology than I did! 😂 The psychiatrist who finally diagnosed me with ASD in my 50s was shocked that none of my previous therapists had ever suggested autism as a possibility as she said to her it was blatantly obvious immediately!
I was diagnosed at 55 by an excellent trauma therapist (a clinical psychologist). I'd suggested 4 years before when he and I first entered therapy together that I might be autistic... completely based on a book I read (Songs of the Gorilla Nation) only because I thought the book would be interesting. It was an autistic woman's journey and I found a narrator for the first time in my life whose thought processes were similar to mine. The therapist completely dismissed that because I was so insightful. And because I knew nothing else about autism, save for that book and the Rainman movie, I took his word. Mostly, I think the problem was that his experience had been with autistic men not women and that likely no autistic clients had ever suggested to him that they might be autistic. Over the course of the next three years it slowly dawned on him that I was autistic (likely because of the things he found himself saying to me that were keys to autistic behavior). Another year of observation and discretely testing out his theory he finally suggested to me that I was autistic and that was followed by much testing, which confirmed. Finally, my life made sense to me!
Hi Lisa. I’m a 54 year old woman who has just been diagnosed with autism. Your experience with therapy, reading self help books etc sounds almost identical to mine. Thankfully we now know!
Im 40, diagnosed adhd, same here, reading self help books trying to fix myself since I'm 16. therapy for the past 15 years. did not help. I feel exhausted tbh.
Diagnosed a few months ago at 51, I also read so many self-help and psychology books, and saw many therapists whom I felt did not understand me. My current therapist is young, open minded and non-judging, but she did not detect my autism, I found out by myself after watching a conference from Sarah Hendrickx. I am still grieving all these lost years of my life, thinking there was something wrong with me. What helped me the most in my decades of searching for answers, were books about spirituality and eastern philosophies. It helped me make sense of this life on Earth, and sail through rough waters.
Wow! I just realized that “Speaking the second language” of neurotypical behavior has been a survival mechanism for me. I think it’s a better descriptor for me than masking. It makes so much sense that learning to speak “neurotypical” helped me be successful in many ways, but of course, exhausting! Stellar podcast!
can you help me understand what neurotypical type language is to you? i am just exploring new ideas about this all and unclear what the binary is still like it’s a hard line how ppl talk about it. i also just don’t cognizantly know what behaviors are to be considered one or, the other. thanks for any insights
i actually didn't like that analogy because i do speak a second language 24/7, but it's not tiring at all. It's significantly more tiring to try to switch back to my native language, because i'm so unused to it. I feel like languages are more like software, whereas neurodivergence is closer to the basic physical functioning of the brain. It's more like running a windows virtual machine on linux.
@@DesimereI think being bilingual or multilingual may be like that, not exhausting. But what if you're monolingual, but living in a foreign country with a different language and the only thing you have to help you communicate is a small phrase book that *you* are writing as you go along, but it's full of guesses and errors. That's what it feels like to me. Now, at 63, my book is fairly thick and comprehensive, much has been figured out through trial and error, but I'm still monolingual, still have to try to painfully translate, and am aware that my phrase book is still full of errors and gaps.
Yeah, that works better for me, too. I've never felt like I really wore a 'mask', per se, that attempted to conceal my true self. Instead, I tried to translate my thoughts, behaviours, etc into a form that others would comprehend - with limited success and using almost all of my 'computing power' to do that, with little to none left over for making my way through life, achieving goals, or whatever.
I've often thought about it as permanently dealing with a certain amount of culture shock, like if you go to a place where you've maybe researched the customs and you know at least SOME of the language...but you still get caught off-guard sometimes with differences you didn't expect, and you have to be THINKING about what words to use or whether to bow or shake hands, rather than just going on automatic pilot as most people do in their home culture. You can kind of stumble through, or maybe you feel really proud of yourself when you manage to nail it...but it is still quite tiring! And, unfortunately, while foreigners with an accent or who look different from the local population may be given a bit of a pass because "they're not from around here"...autistic people usually don't because when it's YOUR culture you're not "supposed" to struggle with it to that extent!
I shutdown in a marriage counseling session once. Literally slumped across a pillow, but I kept answering the questions because I literally couldn't stop. Unfortunately, my wife was there too and it just made things worse between us. The next day, I had a meltdown in front of my wife. The next counseling session, he would not listen to me and kept calling it "rage", again in front of my wife. That was the last time I went to him and I have since found a therapist that actually listens to me and has been so helpful. She has an autistic son, and she has lately been considering if she's autistic as well.
I was told that I was being argumentive when I told my therapist to stop trying to speak for me and stop interrupting me when I speak. I speak slower because it takes time to process what they *might be saying*
I've been told I'm argumentative when I'm trying to explain something that they've misunderstood. I'm just trying to make sure they understand properly, and they see it as me arguing. I'm not being defensive.
@@LELIE- I relate to this so much! I'm not trying to argue, I just want to clarify they understand me, and I understand them. What is so wrong with that?!
I once took a dementia test and scored 30 out of 30. The shrink said I passed it but that I was slow in answering the questions. He always had to have his dig in. When I told him I wanted to see a psychiatrist, he was ready to say, I am a psychiatrist. I think he got the point.
When you said therapy teaches you 'you can't be the best judge of your internal experience' this really resonated with me. CBT taught me to gaslight myself about my socially anxious thoughts, when a lot of the time I was actually right about people not liking me 😅
Yes. Recent events in my life have made clear to me that when my instincts are screaming “something is wrong,” there can be an actual reason for that. I can have trouble understanding what it is my instincts are screaming about, but while my dysphoria can color it, it generally doesn’t invent something out of nothing. In theory, drilling down to what the problem is should be what therapy is for. It’s not all just a matter of changing your outlook, for crying out loud. And it’s not just about what happened when we were 3. Real sh*t happens to people all the time.
What's really boneheaded is how they'll do that, while at the same insisting on working on social skills. LIke "you're pathetically bad at 'normal' interaction-- but hey, why are you anxious?" Even when I was fired from a job due to clear discrimination, my therapist suggested I somehow brought it on myself. Like my so-called "awkwardness" was at fault rather than sexism. Rather than acknowledging that I'd been bullied, the therapist was on board with the bullies. While believing she was doing the right thing! NOTE: I called her on it, and she took responsibility, and she did help me during the next few months. But I feel like, why am I always having to train my therapists? Even the highly trained, highly experienced ones.
@@lilar1053 Yes. And sometimes they are also able to recognize that and take responsibility. When they don't, they often do harm. Part of their training is supposed to work on this... but their teachers can only make them go through the process, can't guarantee how much of it will stick.
I once tried therapy and before first session I said I'm AuDHD. She was surprised but said alright. At first session when I was explaining what's going on and said I had thought I had panic attacks but after diagnosis I realized those were meltdowns. She asked me "aren't those the same thing?" and that's when I decided that this is not gonna work and never showed up again
Yup, that seems to be a common misconception. (As is anxiety = panic attacks.) I can do both, and while they share some similarities, they are soooo different!
@@jimwilliams3816yep Always thought I had panick attacks, even I didn't shared the thought I would die or wanted to call ambulance. The opposite! Wanted to go somewhere dark and hidden where I can stay alone and wait until it is over. Then ONE TIME I had a panick attack with vomiting and feeling really sick, heart beat running, etc. It was horrible. Oh😮 it was at this last therapist, before I had to go in. Ha. To come back: when I realized I am AuDHD not just ADHD I got "oh, these had been those shutdowns/ meltdowns. I see.
I hate having to educate professionals about my own diagnosis lol. Good call. We shouldn’t have to be responsible for teaching them about autism and the terms. They need to be trained on this stuff.
I tried to get diagnosed recently and it was very traumatic. It was insane how the psychologists twist & turn what you’re trying to say and completely downplay the difficulties of language processing issues, even though a neuropsychologist discussed this with me after a QEEG. They do blame it on 2-3 decades old, definitely never updated, diagnoses that never took language processing issues into account while speaking to me. They talk down on you, you get shamed, just bc you can’t get across what you want to say. When I read words that describe how I felt as a child and what I experienced, I’m not trying to fit it into my childhood! They try to fit me into their mold and that’s supposed to be different and ‘better’. When I say “I don’t know” it’s bc I can’t access that information in my brain, bc it’s overwhelmed. In the Netherlands they say they can never diagnose me with Autism just bc I don’t have any reliable witnesses from childhood. Only my memories and they are considered ‘unreliable’. It’s frustrating, overwhelming, degrading, demotivating. I don’t ‘fit’ in that world. Thank you for addressing this 🙏🏼🌺
I'm wondering if you could have a diagnosis over zoom with a therapist from overseas? But I agree with the other commenter, it sounds like you already know!
I’m so sorry. But you are confirming my sense that trying for official diagnosis wouldn’t be useful at this point for me. (Open to the idea that it might be eventually, but I suspect that I’m too high-masking/“low support needs” to get a diagnosis or a diagnosis that would qualify me for any useful support/treatment…)
I tried online therapy and six therapists . None of them understood me and made me traumatised . I find channels like this a lot more helpful and helps me understand myself more
Peer support is so important. Ever notice how therapists never encourage us to seek it? They're afraid of losing clients...and should be, given how poor a job so many of them do. Many of us would never have "needed" therapy if we'd had support from our families and peers...
I hate the silent treatment accusation. I came back from work completely overstimulated so I just sat on the couch in earplugs and eyemask in the same room as my mom was and she asked "are you isolating yourself from me?". So instead of resting I was explaining how overstimulated I was and if I was isolating I wouldn't be sitting in the same room as her, would I?
I'm not diagnosed, but this was me during covid when I had to stay at my moms, pause school, and get some crappy job as a barista :( I'd come home and just sit in my bed to have silence in my mind and go on my phone because it distracted me from my body and mind from being stressed out and overwhelmed/underwhelmed....my mom would tell me I didn't like to spend time with her and was "always in my room". The time I actually got her to understand was I started crying talking about my feelings. She came back 10 minutes later and said I made her feel guilty on purpose by crying and that I was lying🤷♀️ my mom's bipolar and manic
And why would it be a problem if you are isolating yourself? You are your own person, not part of your mom. Does she struggle to understand that? Everyone needs their own time and space.
@@baronred7600 To be honest I was absent for 2 weeks because I liv3d at my workplace. I'm also young adult and still live with her when I'm not working and she's not used to me being away. I totally get that she's missing me and she's just more expressive with her feelings.
I remember how years ago one of my therapist decided that I should try exposure therapy in a "controlled" way. She explained to me that it was completely safe and proven to work. So I agreed, we opened "Pandora's box" in regards to one of my complex traumas and weeks later she told me that, despite this being proven to always work, I was getting worst and worst and worst, so we should stop it. She never taught me how to close the box, nor gave me tools to deal with the emotions. She expected me to feel them until they were all out and processed and, when she saw that I couldn't do it, just told me to stop(???). As I said, years had passen and there has not been a single day nor second on my life in which I havent feel the horrible consequences of what we did. I love all stuff related to brains, nervous systems and how they work. That one therapist helped me a lot in certain things, but istg if there's one, i haven't been so fucked up in my life as i've been then pasts years. Not all therapy is good for everyone, some therapy can be really bad for you and it may break you.
😳 uhh, that sounds horrible! How did You manage to "close the box", "stop" later? I mean, You didn't end up getting "pure crazyness" (don't know how to explain in english), so You Manager somehow later, unless still dealung with it. Maybe You can teach me a helpful thing... I mostly " felt" what therapist wanted to make me feel IN therapy session a bit later on my way home or home. And then I felt completly overwhelmed by it with np idea how to manage it. Took me days to recover. That took so much energy I decided it is not helpful. Then therapist/psychiatrists say "You have to go through it, can't run away from your feelings." Haha, You don't know. Sadly I didn't know too that time.
My dear sibling, I just want to remind you that feeling permanently broken is itself a symptom of PTSD, and isn't the truth. I had a similar experience with trauma therapy, and such damage does heal over time. We do process things differently than NT's. I am also skeptical of therapy, especially for the neurodivergent getting therapy from uneducated providers. Imagine a surgeon cutting a person open, deciding the treatment wasn't going to work, and exiting the room without closing the wound. Stay true to yourself and you can find your way back to a better place.
Literally just had to stop my CBT as I fell into a mental health crisis from it. This video and book recommendation couldn't have come at a more appropriate time. Thank you so much for putting this together.
As a member of the ASD community I always find it difficult to have any type of therapy. It always feels more like I am being studied for the benefit of the therapist than attempting to help me with anything. It just feels like you get pushed to your limits and sometimes beyond almost to see how I react. I find that happens to me in daily life regardless so it’s not really helping me. I’m not going to logic my way out of being ASD. Anyway, that’s my whinge. I’m sure the right type of treatment by the right therapist would have more of a benefit, but so far I haven’t found it useful.
what types of therapy did you try. Heard that CBT and autism don't really mix. Have you tried Cognative Analytic Therapy (CAT), I have heard thats a bit more approchable for neurodivergants.
@@antlerman7644I had CAT I didn’t even understand what it was trying to achieve. The only thing I could figure out was that they were trying to make me give up my coping mechanisms.
@@tracik1277@tracik1277 "I had cognitive behavioural therapy at one point, but my therapist's approach didn't work for me. They asked me to imagine myself in the middle of the ocean, which is something I'm terrified of, and then told me, "You have to want to get better." I felt ashamed and realized that I felt worse after the sessions, so I stopped going. It's become clear to me that not all therapists have the knowledge or understanding to help their clients effectively, and some are more focused on ticking boxes than providing personalized and helpful therapy."
The “being studied for the benefit of the therapist” part is the reason why I stopped CBT therapy 😔 I felt exactly as you described.. it really felt like I was going there just to talk to a friend and get validated for my everyday experience, without any helpful tip from the therapist. He also seemed to just ask me questions about how I react to certain things in daily life interactions and point out to me how neurotypicals do it differently. How is that even helpful? I felt he didn’t even empathize with me or my problems, as if I have no heart or no emotions. I think this experience showed me that neurotypical therapists are generally not well suited for Autistics.
I'm AuDHD with some anxiety disorders and bipolar II for spice. DBT has been massively helpful for me. I've struggled a lot with realistic framing for my thoughts and feelings in the past, and it's helped me both with identifying them and with correcting the unhelpful narratives I tell myself about them.
I doubt I have autism, cptsd is a more likely diagnosis, but I recognise myself in quite of a lot said. The fact that they refused to accept I know my own emotions and needs, confident that a few hours of chatting meant they knew me better than I knew myself... It was pretty damning.
Paul Micallef just did a piece on “9 mistakes therapists make.” They are really mistakes regardless of who the patient is. It’s especially bad for anyone experiencing serious mental health distress. Having it suggested that the person with the degree knows it all and you know nothing is not a healthy message for anyone, especially someone who might be questioning their own legitimacy as a person.
@@jimwilliams3816 Exactly why I consider it a sort of gaslighting and some of the worst kind because it makes you doubt your own ability to really know your own self. It's abuse!
It is really a golden rule of a lot of therapy schools that they're breaking. Unless the thing they're insisting on is like "no, you're wrong, you really aren't worthless" then they shouldnt be insisting at all and just offer it in the spirit of "total speculation"
@Mrhola-tz6wc Well, one trait of a sociopath is they are good at reading people, it's why they can manipulate so well. But here, I think we're just talking plain old arrogance. They obviously DON"T read us, but think they do.
Safety is the most important aspect. You have to acknowledge that nothing can be processed in therapy without it. If you feel unsafe with any therapist leave!
Yeah but, what if you've been so bullied and isolated your whole life, it's hard to feel safe with ANYONE you don't know well? Kind of a catch-22 for therapy.
OMG "you're very self aware" Is something I've heard so often in my life but especially from mental health professionals. "You're thinking wrong thoughts stop it" I feel this sentence so hard re enrich time I've tried CBT
@janicewinsor4793 I’ve never had a mental health professional tell me I was too self aware, just very self aware. I think they did mean that it was okay, though perhaps not something they experience with everyone. In my case I think they were reacting to the detailed observations I made about myself, and maybe my awareness of inner neurological sensations. I still have trouble telling if a lot of those sensations are emotions or not, though.
So it's because we analyze everything then. If someone is trying to figure out the world, they have to analyze everything. If the world doesn't make sense, you either analyze it or give up.
I was a very serious child constantly being told to lighten up. I tried to learn how to be a child. For me my emotions are on the surface I cried pert near constantly it seemed. All you had to do was yell at me, and it was like you'd slap me in the face and I would start to cry. Fortunately my parents had no money to take care of what was wrong with me. I had to figure it all out on my own, and now at 62 I think I have.
@@janicewinsor4793I am 61, born in '62, and am late-Dx ADHD & later self-IDed AuDHD. I relate to your experience that you've shared. I was (am) so sensitive to sharp reprimands, as a child I'd dissolve into tears & hide, trying hard not to cry. Along with other persistent experiences gotten worse w/ middle age, this leads me to be fairly certain I have RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria) which seems like it should be added to the DSM. Not that this is related, other than it seems to be a common profile or comorbidity with us AuDHDers: another profile that would explain some difficulties that rendered me unable to work is PDA: Pathological Demand Avoidance, aka Pervasive Drive for Autonomy. While I'm on a roll with what I call TLAs (three-letter acronyms) that are potentially relevant and sometimes helpful, EDS (Ehlers-Danlos syndrome) - hypermobile type, for me - was extremely helpful in my search to quantify my growing list of physical problems needing care. POTS & MCAS are frequently associated with EDS. Although I haven't been found to meet diagnostic criteria for these last 2, I personally recognize some of the symptoms even if on a subclinical scale. You may already know about these, but I thought I'd share for anyone else who is in a similar boat. I found each of these to be particularly helpful in my quest for answers.
I'm late diagnosed AuDHD. Thank you so much for this video!!!!!! I did feel CBT was not helping me and made me think there is something wrong with me. and one day I found a video about CBT and autistic people. now watching your video and it clicked me even more! very good content and I learned a lot from you guys. thank you.
I used to be PA to the senior MH commissioner for the our area. He was responsible for deciding funding for all MH services. Even he hated CBT, he used to call it 'whack-a-mole' therapy because even if it works all it does is redirects the behaviour and the problems to other behaviour which can be worse. But because the original behaviour may reduce it is successful. The truth is that it is repression which either becomes redirected or returns worse because the energy has been pushed down for a period of time. It does not deal with the issue that causes the behaviours at all. It's like putting a sticking plaster over a bullet hole and expecting it to be OK. I refuse to do CBT at all costs
Therapy went the same for my mom and me: We analyzed the therapists problems and what he/she wanted to hear and helped them get on with it.They were very proud of how well it went. :-))
They're so transparent in what they want to get out of a person, aren't they? Then we just produce a mask that fits their expectations and they think they've performed a miracle. The only problem is it leaves you feeling so minimized, knowing that you conformed to someone else like that
The problem isn't the therapies, when applied to the correct situations they have merit. The problem is this attitude that some therapists have that they know better than you do, and that they're never incorrect.
Exactly! It's like my one counselor did correctly identify an issue that came up in a "problem" situation but at the same time she was actively working hard to _deny_ another, _simultaneous_ issue that was going along with it in the same situation that I _knew_ was no less relevant.
Yeah, when I tried to tell my ex-therapist that some things she does don't work for me or that I need to slow down with them, she told me that she won't let me rule over her and control her, that she's the one who knows more and is directing what we do. It looked like she got triggered by me giving her feedback. But I also think that certain types of therapies help the therapists to be compassionate, understanding and curious and that there are some types that provoke and support 'I know better' kind of attitude. I.e. there's lots of power play wording in CBT guideline books
I don't fully agree with the idea that therapy itself can never be the problem (not every method is right for every person and every situation), but yeah. So many psychologists don't understand or make room for autistic experiences, and end up trying to force us to fit the therapy/denying or reframing our experiences instead.
It's actually really interesting what I am now getting out of CBT stuff now that I don't have a therapist and realized I don't need to reframe in a way that is socially acceptable. I ended up figuring that the general idea of reframing my thoughts to something better was often not very helpful. I am now realizing that those positive thoughts are actually the reason for my anxiety, they give me pressure, make me anxious to perform well so things work out or of the huge drop when things don't work out. So what I ended up changing is actually my strategy: From trying to reach specific goals to just learning from experience, from seeing threats to considering what risks are worth taking. I didn't need to be more positive, I needed to be more grounded in the here and now and what choices I can make. So a lot of the time my solution was actually "opt out of the unhelpful judging" but no one ever talked strategy with me, and that was really unhelpful for me, I needed an actual clear strategic picture of what I would be doing. The reason I'm the one laughing now is that now when a therapist is saying that I need to do this and that I can in my head go "that's an unhelpful thought" and dismiss it. I needed CBT to be free from judgy therapists. In a way I ended up learning from them. When life gives you lemons you make lemonade I guess.
And it's not just therapists. I have a rare, badly studied and lesser known medical condition, and initially I went to specialists to understand why I had those chronic pains. Only one of them had the humility and honesty to tell me "I don't know what you have", the others dismissed half of my symptoms to shoehorn a bs diagnosis in because of course they had to know better... I ended up finding what I had in an obscure scientific paper in a lesser known medical journal, which helped a lot with a couple of recommendations that were actually helpful. The medical community lets down so many people out of sheer arrogance...
Well put. The nervous system is designed to win fights in certain circumstances too. The concept of the triune brain did a lot for my understanding of my fight or flight. The nervous system goes way back to jellyfish. I think it was with mammals that the limbic system really got going. The cortex is the most recent addition to cognition, and humans have the largest prefrontal cortex of any species. All these additions piled new functionality on top of older systems without any ground-up redesign. When you do this to a computer program, it eventually becomes unstable -which is where I think humans have gotten to. As a species we are smart but kludgey. And produce a certain number of system errors.
@@jimwilliams3816 omg I absolutely love this. Unstable is a pretty good label. I imagine if we are an alien science experiment there is a label on our universe and that's exactly what it says "Unstable" 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Oh Sam this is such a good conversation and important topic! Few days ago I was recalling my therapies I went to few years ago (when I was undiagnosed and completely unaware I'm AuDHD) for depression who told me to "try harder" and "go out of my comfort zone" when I tried to explain how difficult I find interpersonal interactions - especially with people I didn't know or knew on a very not-deep way. These meetings left me thinking I'm even more failure at life than I was before. I'm now diagnosed and I talk with a therapist who 1) is autistic herself and 2) psychology especially of neurodivergent people is her special interest - so she's great and our conversations are so good.
Yeah I'm being told I'm not getting enough sleep and it's childhood trauma. No, I've been sleeping good, not tired, and I'm old enough that I've moved past any childhood trauma. My parents don't affect my life anymore.
And in reality we're just different and people treat us differently making us think there's something wrong with us, which just makes those situations all the more difficult. What we need are things that work for us and also allow us to get the human contact / connection we need.
@@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS yes precisely this! I think the knowledge about neurodiversity is spreading, so hopefully therapists will catchup with it, because this is essential for providing right type of therapy to the right type of brains.
My therapist denied I'm autistic. I'm only diagnosed because my psychiatrist referred me for evaluation shortly before turning 36 after decades of mental illness, social problems, emotional instability, poor self-esteem, and general failure at life, so it's not like I was fishing for a diagnosis.
I loved my last therapist, she helped me navigate my relationship with my mother, which at the time was my biggest problem. But the second my psychiatry diagnosis came in and I was believed to be AuDHD, she started getting so defensive about it and would tell me not to label myself ever and that I didn't have anything going on other than anxiety. I had to stop seeing her and I'm looking for another therapist who specializes on these issues.
So sorry. Thankfully teacher saw an issue. My K teacher made me cry and traumatized me pulling me by the arm saying “how do you spell your name?” Apparently was not putting my name on my work nor participating much. K teacher wrote letter home about “stern talking to” “ can siblings help me learn my name and write it”. Before you know it I “was better and participating”. None I remember 💞🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💞💙👊👊
My son is in school therapy and the therapist asked if I wanted her to tell me everything he said. I said no, that felt wrong to me! I said only if there are major concerns. I’m sorry your parents did this. It’s very sad.
As a therapist, (who is looking to support her autistic patient) I am deeply disappointed in the therapeutic practices you guys were hurt by. In my training (gestalt) we were taught to NOT do all those hurtful and dismissive things with anyone, let alone someone with a neurodivergent experience. Thanks for explaining the pitfalls to avoid with my clients!
As a late diagnosed (50's) Audhd student therapist, I am so appreciative of this content. I'm currently in the final year of a BSc in counselling and psychotherapy, not a single module dedicated to understanding neurodiverse clients. Thank you!
I presented with executive function issues, and was diagnosed depressed. Which started me on the same long path of wrong diagnosis after wrong diagnosis, like so many others. I am glad to know there is one up and coming therapist who won't do that to future clients!
yes yes yes!! i had such bad experiences with therapy. no one seemed willing to even consider my experience - that i didn't have "negative thoughts", at least nothing more than average and nothing i wasn't perfectly capable of questioning etc on my own, but rather that i *feel* anxious and depressed *regardless* of my thoughts. no matter how i explain it, no matter if i use personal metaphors or technical-ish language ("i need to regulate my nervous system, not change my thoughts" etc), therapists and counselors just cannot understand. it made me so so angry in the end, i just gave up. now i'm stuck being prescribed medication that i don't want to take, with no access to the kinds of treatment that could actually help me.
For me there's a disconnect between what my brain says and my body feels, maybe that's what you mean? There's also the masked me and the unmasked me trying to argue about how I should be, I wouldn't call it 2 personalities because it's ME but definitely different ideas on things.
Yeah, that was one of the things that frustrated me so much about CBT. My feelings are unrelated to my thoughts. I can believe I'm perfectly safe and still *feel* extremely anxious and unsafe. I'm not experiencing any kind of negative thought spiral. It's just an overwhelming sensation in my body that I cannot ignore and which is actively stressing me out and impairing my ability to function (so I can't just ignore it and get on with life). No amount of rational thinking is going to fix this, because I'm not being irrational in the first place.
Society is not made for nor doesn't want to accommodate for autistic needs, but demand so much from us for what we can do, but do not value our humanity. Therapists, especially those who have been therapists for a long time may have been in the career long enough when Autism did not exist in the social mainstream can be the most harmful, I found. I was diagnosed with autism as an infant, but I also have ADHD - so AuDHD. I have also been misdiagnosed for ASPD despite the fact I have exhibited multiple times to that therapist back when I was a teen that I love animals and caring for them and their needs, and want them to be safe and happy. I have CPTSD from having so many abusive people in my life that I had difficulty trusting anyone other than pets/animals, and love human creativity/arts and nature and hate money/greed, but sure, I'm "Functionally evil" to this therapist. My last therapist had demanded so much from me and not understanding why there was no feedback as the "advice" boiled down into: "Just do better at school!" "Get a job regardless of your needs!", or "Have you considered prayer?" and that was my cue to just drop her. Why is there so much ignorance on this that it turns into arrogance?
I am late diagnosed AuDHD, every therapy session I have ever had up until this point has been a total disaster.. to the point now that i don't trust therapists. the fact that they are not taught anything about Autism and neurodivergent thinking comes as no surprise to me at all.
Therapy shouldn’t be a catch all. More Pediatricians need training on identifying traits before school age so kids can go to therapists that specialize in autistic care. Pediatricians are often so I’ll equipped and often times it’s teachers who identify an issue
I diagnosed myself at age 52. Lifetime of therapists and gp Dr missed it. They caught ocd and adhd, but not autism. They helped me somewhat. But missed the biggest thing of all. I hope they start being trained in this subject
Thank-God! For that! Do you realize the amount of control and discrimination and otherness they make for those labeled? You are literally branded a 2nd class citizen. Sometimes even 3rd Class.
@@Autisticheather The reason why I love my grandma her and not my mother, is because my grandmother actually treated me like a normal human being. Yes, throughout my life I had to consider political Strategy just to keep my head above the water.. But my grandma is the reason I can love.
My child, who has Autism is doing therapy with a very caring person, yet she is practing masking. She is told that to get a job, she needs to interview. I understand why, but I want my child to stop masking and be comfortable with themselves.
Preparation for interview should not be how to mask. It should be how to introduce yourself as an autistic person in a way that sets the stage for a good interview. How to negotiate interactions with normies WITHOUT having to mask. How to know and advocate for your rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But how many therapists know anything about all of that? Most of them don't even understand the very basics of autism. Disability Services department of local university might be good resource. Also if there are any support groups near you of and by auties.
An employer who won't hire you based on the real you as an autistic person will get rid of you at the first sign of difficulties. How do I know? Been there, several times. It's very hard to find an employer that will hire you knowing your cognitive deficits and all the consequences, but it's the only employer who will keep you.
The number one trauma of Autism (I'm AuDHD) is being homeless later in life due to being misunderstood and not getting jobs based on not often passing the interview. Luckily, it hasn't been a long time for me but still. I started to work on myself to help me mask later in life. But it was a bit too late. I envy you guys who have the luxury of not having to change your traits just to survive. You have a good thing always be thankful for it.
The lack of Autism awareness is a huge issue worldwide. People don’t understand it. Some just don’t want to understand it. My asd son has helped me see the world through different eyes.. different perspective. Autism =Unique in every way
When I encounter another aspie/autist in the wild, it's obvious right off the bat and I am thankful for finally having someone to engage in intelligent conversation with.
The thing about meditation making things worse is so spot on - 1. Body scans are torturous when I'm in any amount of pain 2. There was one that made you fake smile because your body allegedly realises endorphins even when not happy - nope only neurotypical bodies do that I got incredibly depressed from the cognitive dissonance of smiling when depressed.
My mother: " Just think positive thoughts, your day will improve. Don't let anything get to you!😀" Pretty sure that doesn't work for me, and the more I try, the worse the voices that counter those thoughts will get, but what do I know, eh?
And if the body doesn't release those endorphins, you will be told you didn't do it right, didn't do it long enough, or have unrealistic expectations. Never could it be that one size fits all solutions don't exist.
Meditation in the “try not to think” fashion made anxiety so much worse for me as it is compulsive. But I find the mantra ones helpful if u chant a phrase over and over again (like there’s a directive) or just rest and be loving to yourself and let your mind wander without judgment. IDK if it will help w you but I found it helpful a lot.
Best meditation ever is repeating a mantra that does the job for you. You dont even have to focus. You just do it. It helped me a lot. It helps calm the inside and bring harmony overtime.
the most traumatic for autistic person can be is group therapy where we can feel all the problems and still dont understand why all that happend and what to do, and therapist can tell you're not trying hard enough and the problem is in you.
Yeah, i had a therapist who wanted me to do group. Pretty sure her reason was to 'prove' to me that my social issues were all my own fault. Fortunately, she and the place she worked for never got their act together enough to find a group for me, so that's at least one bullet i dodged. I shiver thinking how much such a group could have traumatized.
I also had a therapist who wanted me to try online group...on Zoom 🤢I absolutely detest Zoom calls, so I was not keen on the idea. But to be "open-minded," I attended the online intake & info session, where the entire group who would be involved attended and introduced themselves to each other. One session of interacting with everyone else was enough to show me that I'd be doing myself harm by attempting to participate, and I refused to continue. I'm proud that I stood my ground on that. I avoided potential trauma and energetic exhaustion by recognizing that space was not appropriate for me.
I'm in my 50s and have spent my whole life trying not to be wrong, at times giving up, falling into addiction, had much therapy, "very self aware" was said a lot, yes it often overwhelmed me. self soothing has been seen as avoiding, etc. It has been messed up, I only hope this helps someone. Still trying to get diagnosis of autism: in the uk it is impossible atm as nhs is broken. One thing I will say is: I will not give up, and I implore everyone to adopt this attitude, then we will win in the end and be more recognised as autistic, different, but valuable for those differences, not despite them.
Re: self soothing as avoidance Lately I have been trying to recontextualize my "lazy" and procrastination-related behaviors (watching RUclips for example) as an unconscious attempt to recover from burnout.
I reiterate what I've been saying in another comment: I think one if the biggest problems is that people misjudge our comfort zone. Like there is comfort zone, growth zone and panic zone, and we're often in our panic zone and need to dial down to get into our growth zone and learn, rather than adding things, cuz you can't properly learn when you're panicking.
@@toni2309 one thing I did learn from traditional therapy is the importance of not comparing my inner experience with someone else’s outer appearance/apparent situation. Here’s hoping more neurotypical folks can understand that the line between growth and panic can be in a very different places for individuals, especially neurodiverse individuals. (Will try to be more aware of this myself after this also.)
I found a therapist who was so affirming but the difficulty was that I just talk in circles. I don’t get anywhere, and I don’t truly process and go into further distress when I don’t have someone guiding me and providing structure. I started somatic therapy and it was a huge difference from all my years of talk therapy, so that’s where I’m headed now. I’m so tired of talking. I don’t have capacity for so much verbal speech. And it’s just retraumatizing me instead of helping me heal c-PTSD. I wish more of us had access to body based approaches modified for us but I know it’s hard to find.
@@janicewinsor4793 well I want to do something about that. I used to be a therapist and I couldn’t offer somatic approaches because they always triggered me when I tried them. And I had no training in it and couldn’t go on that journey myself. Now that I do have that privilege I hope if I get less sick I can return to the community and provide more accessible supports someday. The way you feel is your reality and it isn’t fair. It needs to change. I’m only one person but I know many other autistic therapists since I am part of that community still and I want to see more positive changes.
But one thing that definitely has to be considered is that a person can definitely have more than one problem. I for example also cope with agoraphobia but there's other things as well. I'm sure the agoraphobia started out as me trying to cope with the way people reacted to me.
I feel the same way. I feel like I'm just talking and getting no further forward. I now have an autistic therapist and at least now he is challenging my internal ableism
And I wondered why CBT didn't help me. I am late diagnosed ADHD and I strongly suspect I might be autistic, too. Now I know why therapy wasn't helpful for me, although I often hear that I am very articulate and self aware and that I could be proud for such bravery to be so open. Thing is, I am *always* open and vocal about what is going on inside me. So many pieces coming together for me now as I am watching this video. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this video!
this is so validating. i’m sick of constantly being pushed to go back to therapy by the people around me when all therapy has done for me is make me more traumatized and ashamed of myself. my family doesn’t want to understand me or “deal” with me, they just want to pawn me off onto a therapist so they don’t have to listen to my struggles anymore, not realizing that therapy will never ever help me.
So sorry that is happening to you. My family doesn't want to deal with me either but they don't believe in therapy, they just shunt me aside. I have found peer support group helps way more than therapy did. Not saying you "should" do it, but mentioning because I don't see people talking much about it. At very least, we can find support online amongst each other.
I have autistic OCD and even well meanging therapists have not been able to help me stop my compulsions which stop me from functioning, I always logically understood my compulsioms not to finish ANY project was a unrealistic compulsion and only felt more damage explainimg my lack of improvement to therapists. The only therapy I haven’t done yet is exposure therapy for OCD. I just lost years of my MA studies due to perfectionism being unable to “finish researching”.
Exposure therapy for OCD helped me a lot (gave me my life back), but I think I was lucky with the therapist who was very experienced - she let me do it in my own pace. Unfortunately I sometimes relaps (not as bad as it was, but it still interfers with my life) and now she (the therapist) is retired and I have a new therapist, and while it is nice to have someone supportive to talk to I can also see that he doesn't have the same experience and understanding as she had.
As a ND, i naturally have some ND friends and either i see them going through therapys or we even have the same therapist. Over time i saw so many be broken by false 'repairs'. Childhood traumata being intensified by "let's put it all on the table again - and now: have you tried to not care anymore?". Gaslighted into a NT reality that just doesn't exist for us. Imprissonment in clinics/recreation centers where you got bunched up with all sort of broken people, with no privacy or protection, only able to get out once you admitt that you stopped being different. Druged with substances that doctors have some rough idea how they influence a NT's brain. And on and on again. I saw people trying to be NT and internally die about it. I saw drug additctions starting. I saw people deny there be the slightest chance of being ND for the programmed fear that this makes them an outcast or not even a human being. These are the expiriences that are engraved in my reality for its severity, and for sure there are lots of different outcomes. I just want to say to everyone even vaguely guessing to be ND - be carefull. Some might harm you by not knowing better, others will inflict harm deliberately. Go search for those who want and can actually help you. And whatever you do - don't agree on something just because it is supposedly good for NT's.
Therapists who aren’t trained in autism can be extremely dangerous. I came out of a narcissistic family system, so I needed someone who could handle severe abuse, as well as understand my neurology. The results over forty years have been disastrous. I was seriously destabilized each time and didn’t realize what happened for some time afterward. Sometimes I would develop PTSD. I only learned in my fifties that I was neurodivergent and now understand why therapy didn’t work. Today, there are many people who try to separate CPTSD from autism, as if they can’t be co-occurring. It is possible to have CPTSD, bipolar, etc overlaid on top of autism, and the autistic community needs to start recognizing this, just as the allistic therapy community needs to learn about autism. My life has been turned upside down over and over again because mental illness among the autistic isn’t well understood.
I’m stopping around 20:45 to thank Steph for the incredibly validating acknowledgement that we are biologically more vulnerable to trauma, which I know to be true - but which I rarely see acknowledged, even on autism channels. It’s important to me because there are so many people who insist that hypervigilance and persistent fear response are invariably caused by abuse. I am intellectually confident that my early childhood experiences are best described as “nothing too bad happened, but I take things hard.” But faced with people that insist otherwise, I struggle emotionally with this. And one thing I have figured out in therapy is that most of the really damaging messages I’ve internalized come from broader societal expectations, not individuals. Chief among these is the idea that emotions are the keystone to everything - which can be problematic, since I have big emotions. Also that, if I have issues with the “universally recognized” cognitive approach, it could not be because I know my own mind, but rather that I am being intransigent and refusing to heal myself. It’s hard to overstate how much damage these long-held “cognitive distortions” have done to me. It’s rather tough right now, with various people arguing that neudivergence is all repressed trauma. Yes, I have also been told many times that I am very self-aware! I also had a psychiatrist med-provider who told me that I described things mechanistically, which seemed right and bothered me not at all. A brief stint with an RN med provider who told me that she had patients she “knew” because they shared their inner life, whereas I did not, was another matter: there I did have massive panic attacks, and felt dehumanized and traumatized. I am an AuDHD overshare of the first degree. My language is simply different. And exposure therapy for social anxiety just makes me laugh. Exposure is how my social anxiety gradually grew debilitating over several decades.
I tried to convince myself that I had been abused just to find any reason. I knew deep down that I wasn't. But I just needed my trauma acknowledged and nobody would
Read the book in 24 hours and loved it... I laughed out loud in places as it resonated so much.. training to be a therapist at the moment so this book was great timing for me...
Even when you try to explain to someone that you have ADHD or Autistic because you hope they will be more understanding, but they just don't care. Some make things worse, by acting like something is wrong with us. The best people to be around if you ARE Autistic or ADHD (divergent) are others that are like us.
I understand that not all neurotypical (or people with a note neurotypical brain, I don't ascribe to binaries) will understand & we live in a society that caters by far more to people who are more neurotypical but I don't think saying that we should keep to our own is especially helpful. I have friends & colleagues from all walks of life and there is more to us cognitively and personally than just being neurodivergent or neurotypical. My boss is autistic like me & we're like chalk & cheese indeed she's a very spiteful & vindictive woman. We need to create dialogues between groups not division & recognise the inherent heterogeneity within our community. There's neurotypical people for instance who I have more in common with and vice versa. I understand we've been persecuted & misunderstood as a group but tarnishing all neurotypicals with the same brush is dangerous & doing nothing more than what they have done to us. We are individuals and everyone's individuality needs to be taken into account.
I'm certain I have autistism and adhd after hours, days, months, years of researching and watching everything I can. I went to a therapist the first one immediately diagnosed me with depression because of my struggles with socialization and going places. I'm not depressed in my opinion in any way shape or form. The next one diagnosed me with anxiety. Which I also don't believe I have. I feel like they easily mix up certain "symptoms" easily. And are super quick to diagnose without actually listening to me. I don't have any other options for therapy that's covered by my insurance so I'm kinda stuck. I want help sooooo bad because I always felt like an alien. Like I don't fit in with anyone. I hate trying to socialize with people who have no similar interests and it's impossible to find people irl who are into things I like such as toy/dolls collecting, science and art. And I struggle with literally everything in life. I feel like there's a roadblock to getting anything done in a "normal" productive way and I have played life in hard mode.
Therapists have to diagnose you before they can get paid but it should be a tentative diagnosis, open to being changed. Therapists in the US aren't considered expert enough to diagnose autism. One has to see a specialist for that.
I reckon one of the most validating things you can do is to immerse yourself in the autistic community, even if that's only online to begin with. Have you tried joining FB groups where only autistic people (including self diagnosed) are allowed?
@@bedlambelle Specialist. Right. All part of the gaslighting. There are clear criteria for autism, written in plain English that does not take a specialist to comprehend, and if you fit them, you fit them. It's gatekeeping. They do not want to have to admit how wrong they've gotten it all, how they have (for example) failed to diagnose millions of women. So they put up barriers to hold back the flood.
I told my therapist I was diagnosed autistic and ADHD, she tried to blame everything on covid and saying my problems were from “isolation during covid”. She also had me do that exercise for anxiety that’s like “hear, feel, see something”, where you focus on something outside yourself, I tried explaining those are anxiety triggers because I have sensory issues, so focusing on bright colors, how my clothes feel or loud noises is like the opposite of what will help. But if you explain that sitting in a dim lit quiet room feels better, then you’re not advancing or you’re letting the “anxiety control” you. I stopped going because it was more harmful than helpful.
Yes, I have found that Mindfulness doesn’t work well for things that are triggers! My therapist took me through an exercise where I would tense on set of muscles, then another, that “be aware of your body” thing that is supposed to show you you’re safe. When we got to my back muscles, I screamed. (I’ve long had debilitating trigger points there.) Another problem I’ve observed with awareness of my surroundings is that dysphoria colors everything. When I’m seriously depressed, a beautiful day is incredibly sad. It may be that somatic experiencing has techniques for adjusting that, but Mindfulness seems like somatic experiencing lite to me, and noticing my surroundings doesn’t cause me to suddenly realize “hey, I’m safe!” Maybe there’s no tiger behind the door, but that’s not what my hypervigilance is perceiving. And a lot of Mindfulness meditations seem to focus on intensifying self awareness. Maybe start wide, like looking down on the Earth, but then start zooming until I’m almost looking up my own nose. But I’ve felt trapped in my own dysfunctional mind my whole life, and always wanted out. So the meditations are moving in the wrong direction!
I tried advocating for myself. I told them exactly what was wrong with me they said they could help me. Only to tell me a few sessions later. we don't do that. I gave up on therapy.
@@janicewinsor4793 Advocating for yourself to someone who doesn't care isn't any different (that I can see) than trying to set boundaries with an abuser. The issue isn't that you didn't express yourself clearly enough, it's that the other party doesn't care about what you express. I've tried to do both things (self-advocate to a therapist and set boundaries with an abuser) and the results were roughly the same: the therapist and the abuser just kept (and keep) doing what they wanted.
@@janicewinsor4793 Oooh jeez, uh, not well? I actually had a similar thing happen with my latest therapist as you did? I went in, telling him my #1 biggest life-ruining problem. He said we could work on it. We tried to work on it for about 1 month (4 sessions) before he started changing the subject every time I brought it up. When I asked why he was changing the subject away from my #1 biggest life-ruining problem, he basically told me it was because we weren't making headway (rather, he thought I wasn't trying hard enough to fix it) and so he wanted to change the subject to something he thought he could make headway on.
@@janicewinsor4793I want to chime in as someone who is having good experiences: The thing about setting boundaries and clearly communicating isn't necessarily going to change people. It's that you stop bothering with people who can't help, you learn what's good for you and are quicker to shut down what isn't good for you so you have more free room to fill with what is good. One thing I learnt that wasn't very intuitive for me as an autistic person was how much people read you from your emotions and not what you say, and then unfortunately judge those emotions by neurotypical standards. I haven't found following other's path is very helpful, so I started considering what I want to learn, and what it is that would make me confident. I actually find people treating me better despite being unmasked and having gotten so much criticism because of my autistic traits, simply because I am more confident.
I'm currently self-identified, 14 month on a diagnosis waiting list, and I realised that my first therapy in elementary school harmed me so so much in the process. I had a big revellation yesterday that since elementary school, I had internalised around 99% of my meltdowns and my therapist back then taught me how. No wonder I have chronic pain and im constantly nervous... I'm so sad for my past self, all I needed was validation of the things I was experiencing and I've been to at least 6 different psychologists and psychiatrist throughout my childhood, none of them taking me seriously. I currently have a depression and BPD diagnosis and I think these resulted out of not being diagnosed.
Omg thank you!!! I’ve lost count of how many medical professionals have told me to breathe, do yoga & EFT tapping. When my body is severely disregulated it really doesn’t help
Omg… yoga, meditation, deep breathing… these are all things that stress me out SO much and I thought I was just doing it wrong and needed to try harder 😭🤯
Deep breathing made me so aware of my heartrate and breathing that I was getting panic attacks left and right. Luckily, my therapist said we could move on to different things. As for meditation, clearing my head and maintaining one focus is IMPOSSIBLE unless it’s my special interest So….what if you try something like imagination meditation? Just thinking about your special interest and things that you know calm you down in vivid detail. There are a bunch of different meditation techniques and I dunno why they always go to the “empty your mind” one first. An empty mind with barely a thought STRESSES ME OUT
I was institutionalized as a teen because the therapy was making things bad and then my mother would poke and poke until I would melt down. As an adult, going on my own volition, it's been immensely helpful.
Thank you for bringing up this topic. As an undiagnosed add-er i've also had my fair share of traumatic therapy experiences. I found some alternative (non talk) therapies very helpful, especially family constallations. They do it also with horses which is very effective, especially with autistic people. Sounds a bit vague but i wish people would give this a try.
Goodness me. Just diagnosed at 40. 6 maybe 7 different sets of therapy and I haven’t been understood or helped or validated by any of it. The last one I said, I do something wrong in therapy, help me figure it out. But no use, she was lovely but really didn’t understand what I was doing or saying. Thank you Sam x
Yes! I learned that my telling my therapist my history in the beginning is experienced by allistic therapists as me avoiding intimacy and other such nonsense when from an autistic perspective it's about getting necessary details out because I'm trying to gain insight about what's puzzling me. I got the depth... what I needed were ways to make sense of it in a way that would help me move forward and that's totally unrelated to my needs with how to cope as someone who is AuDHD. Wish I'd known I was because I don't think it would be all that hard to tease out the difference between the two.
As refreshing as it is to find a therapist who admits they don't understand and is willing to learn, it amounts to you having to train them. They should have to pay us instead of us paying them.
The getting misunderstood in therapy is very accurate. Add on having an only partially understood and still mostly undiagnosed chronic illness puts an extra layer to things. I've stopped going to therapy before when a therapist just kept pushing and pushing me to take on more. I've also had "oh you're all better now" because I'd worked through a lot of legitimate trauma but yet I was still struggling with normal day to day functioning and getting dropped from therapy didn't help that at all. Also, exposure therapy is very much not helpful. I've tried it and it's never helped the situation. Like I can slowly expose myself to a place I find overwhelming but it's not really helping me deal with it better. It's making me hide my intense discomfort and anxiety if anything because i don't like making a scene. Making a scene is likely going to get an adult woman put into a paych ward ajd that is more threatening than the situation currently being dealt with. Also, being "high functioning" (how they determined that, I have no idea), I apparently mask well enough to look semi-normal. Doesn't mean I function well. In fact, I don't function well at all. I've never been able to work full-time and I don't work at all now (especially with chronic illness on top of things). There's not much help for adults struggling with autism and adhd in adulthood. And a lot of doctors automatically ignore my autism diagnosis because they have something else in their mind to explain my behavior. So I'm afraid to go to doctors because I get misunderstood a lot.
High functioning just means you have an IQ over 70. I think that can be determined just from this comment. That terminology is a relic from the time when autism was almost synonymous with severely intellectually disabled children.
Excellent video. I have had rubbish therapy at some points in the past, especially CBT. But I have had two excellent therapists, both person centred. As luck would have it, when my husband died I had some free grief therapy with a therapist who just happened to understand autism, complex trauma and ME/CFS. I am now having a few private sessions with her but I can’t afford to do that for long enough.
I was told by the Lead MH commissioner for S.E. England who was my boss at the time that CBT is only offered because it is the cheapest option. Its short term, limited scope, is pretty generalised for all conditions so not much training is needed for staff and it has good short term results because behaviours are either suppressed or redirected, there is no intention to solve the actual problems. He hated it but it was all that coud be afforded given the budgets he had and he was told that that was the main priority for treatment so he had to fund it over everything else.
Buh-buh-but...I was told that CBT was “the gold standard” of treatment, with a very high success rate! Someone this explanation seems more plausible, based on what I know of human society...
@@jimwilliams3816 the way it has been explained to me is that CBT addresses specific behaviors but it does not address the root cause. So, for example, if you have panic attacks in public places it can teach you to directly address the symptoms e.g. take deep breath (I'm simplifying greatly) but it does not take away the reasons for the anxiety and, except in very basic cases, symptoms are often replaced by other symptoms. If you suffer from something like complex PTSD a few sessions of being told to take a deep breath and think happy thoughts is not going to cure severe trauma. So, in paper, the person may be 'better' because the specific symptoms addressed may decrease but this is often because they have been deflected and there is also a high relapse rate for the original symptoms. The thing with symptoms of MH issues is that they are an indication of deeper causes and these causes are not addressed by CBT. So someone may have panic attacks as a protective mechanism as their brain is working in a particular way and, if panic attacks are removed the brain may find other, potentially more serious ways, to exhibit its distress. I think there is a place for CBT alongside other therapies but the issue is that because it's quick and generic and cheap it is given in place of other therapy because then the MH services can say you have been 'cured' in a nice easy tickbox way that shows up well in their stats. I have known people be given CBT for 6 weeks for everything from eating disorders to CPTSD to attempted suicide to biplor to BPD to severe self-harm. 6 hours of ticklist therapy and some homework is not going to cure these things, they need proper treatment not just to be fobbed off to massage the figures.
I was diagnosed with psychosis and placed on meds and talk therapy for 30 years. Of course, I never got better because most of the doctors didn't understand autonomic nervous system stress responses, compound trauma, avoidant social anxiety, interpersonal psychological abuse, neurodiversity, emotional sensitivity, etc. it was only after I stopped therapy and began to explore all of the aspects of a person's psychological makeup on my own that the pieces began to fall into place. I'm not saying that people should leave therapy, only that I never got the therapy I needed, and then being identified as a psychiatric patient was definitely debilitating. It wasn't only me. I saw this same problem across the board. Maintaining good enough was all that mattered, and one's life ticked away. Only a short therapy with DBT and interpersonal dynamics seemed to help. I wasn't aware that it was my job to teach the therapists, especially when they usually already knew all the answers. I'm talking about easily over 40 therapists, none of which ever treated me like an expert in my own condition. I think this says more about the brokenness of the system, than the brokenness of patients. Not everyone made it through in one piece. They basically assigned us a label and wished us luck. Basically, we need to diagnose ourselves and disregard the hopeless labels assigned, but don't try and tell a therapist that they are wrong. It's much easier and safer to go along to get along, even when nothing gets fixed or addressed. What do we know? More than they realize! They really needed to teach us how to think about our own problems and issues in constructive terms. Certainly, I'd think thirty years would be enough time to do that, rather than spinning one's wheels in futility, without resolution and without an effective strategy. Yes, we could write a book, but who'd read it? I found this discussion immensely helpful. TY.
I'm a self/un-diagnosed autistic person. I asked my primary care dr about getting diagnosed and he basically said it's going to be expensive and difficult to get a diagnosis but I should consider if it's just anxiety (I'm like 99% sure I'm autistic and like 50% sure I'm also ADHD), and go to therapy. The therapist keyed into me being an introvert but not the potential autism. The few sessions I went to just didn't really help. I always hear people tell me that everyone should go to therapy and I always feel guilty and like I'm a failure at it because I really struggled to open up to the therapist. I got the "you're really self aware" comment, and it just felt like he was telling me things I already knew. It wasn't necessarily a negative experience, but it just didn't really help with anything I was feeling (and my primary cares handling of the autism question made me not even comfortable bringing it up with my therapist). This video makes me feel a bit more validated in feeling that way about it. I think most of what I was looking for is understanding why I feel so different from the majority of society, and ive gotten more of that out of autism RUclips than I did in therapy. Learning about autism has put everything about my life into a new perspective and it explains so much. I still struggle with the imposter syndrome and feeling like I'm not high enough support needs to call myself autistic, but I also can see where in my life I did need support (and the things I've never thought of that way that I still really struggle with like taking something to the post office or other things I need to do as an adult that I just can't bring myself to do until I can't possibly put off, and sometimes even then I can't seem to handle it). Anyway, thanks for the free para social therapy session haha
Struggling to do things that I need to do and may even want to do is such a bizarre and frustrating experience. Have you read anything about PDA profile? There are some good content creators specifically for that on Facebook and RUclips (probably elsewhere as well, those are just the two venues I utilize the most.) there are even a few research papers on it as well, so hey Google search for scholarly papers on the subject can be helpful.
I'm one of those women who was "diganosed" with BPD and ever since I've been questioning it. It never truly "fit" for me and I always thought ... oh.... maybe it's CPTSD... that seemed to fit "better"... but then the MORE I've listened to others both online and in life of women "late in life" (over 40) who are late diganosed or are self diagnosed I am like.. you know what... "high functioning autistic" feels like the "fit". I had to pause at various times in this video as I was crying because I FEEL SEEN for the first time in ages and understanding why therapy hasn't worked for me.
There will be better versions of that phrase but it's a stalwart of a stand in for surviving the immediate emergency. It's a ragged flotation aid but it might be the best your mom can lay her hands on to throw to you when you fall overboard. Also, given the heritability of autism your mom might probably well be autistic also which means she is getting activated by you getting activated and both of your cognitive functionalities are failing fast. In that moment - she might be finding it impossible to think of a better way of supporting you.
I think both of my parents are undiagnosed autistic and unfortunately the result was that they taught me a bunch of their unhelpful coping skills, like basically just gaslighting yourself and trying to seem like you're fine when you're not.
I am almost 100% certain my father was autistic, and my mother may have been. She certainly was neurotypical, but it’s so hard to judge exactly how. I was always aware that the things she taught me made me somewhat less clueless about why people do what they do than my father, but a lot of her judgement crept in too. A plausible working theory for my gender self hate is that I am a male Aspie like my father, aspiring to be a high masking autistic woman like my mother. While she was actually very good at supporting my need to withdraw and have autonomy, your comment made me realize that having an autistic parent might be less successful if one thing they teach you is how to mask. It’s possible that this is why I still can’t really see masks (being diagnosed at 62 didn’t help either). My modus operandi for most of my life has been the same as hers...try not to let it bother you, then fail repeatedly. It was a bad way for both of us to live, and caught up with both of us late in life.
@@jimwilliams3816 excellent expansion of my comment. I’m female so more naturally copying my mom, but yeah I think my dad had ASD aspects too. (Older and British in the US make it extra confusing, but the more I learn the more I see ASD traits in his behavior.) I’m just beginning to sort out how all this affected and continues to affect me, and I also can waste less energy on anger as I realize even more that they were truly doing the best they knew how to do…
I'm 43, not formally diagnosed with autism although it's strongly suspected, late diagnosed ADHD (31years) My successful therapists both have now been diagnosed with autism. CBT never helped me, was in fact very harmful, but at the least encouraged a far more significant overanalysis interior which manifested in traits that became OCD.
Psychotherapists broke me. I am now 52- diagnosed autistic aged 45. I have an extreme ( and unusual) phobia that causes anxiety and depression. Over two decades, four different therapists tried CBT, NLP, psychodynamic psychotherapy and then a "new" CBT variant before declaring me too unstable for the therapy. This was a year before my ASD diagnosis. I had been on waiting list for 5 years at that point and asked the therapists if they had known from the start that I may be / am autistic- would they have treated me any differently?? They squirmed a bit and said that they would still have " used the same toolbox" but yes they would have had to apply those tools differently.... In fairness, my first round of therapy was 1992- 94 when autism spectrum conditions were still only recognised in more extreme cases and DEFINITELY didn't effect women/ girls.... But the end result is that my phobia is worse and I think I need therapy because of my therapy. Were I ever to consider it again, I would probably need at least the first 6 sessions to be in a field/ woods/ beach- anywhere that doesn't look like one of their usual consulting rooms.
CBT is so peculiar. Theres definitely a grain of truth to it, but what if your horrible thought is correct? What if your mental problems are caused by people around you abusing you etc. You then change your distressing thoughts and stay longer in the abusive situation. That happened to me. Id never in my life been in a setting that was healthy for me, going from dysfunctional family to dysfunctional adult relationships. So i was in active trauma when i was in therapy, and these CBT therapists just saw me as the target patient and taught me to be a more passive abuse victim. Very strange situation, and im angry because I paid for this mistreatment. Im considering therapy to get over therapy, but scared thats too much for most therapists.
Omg the thing you guys discussed about being called "self aware" and being so overwhelmed with everything feeling like a massive pile of unsortable details made me start to cry a bit because that's exactly how i feel and the reason im in therapy. I just said to my therapist last week that one of my biggest goals is to just make sense of all the random conflicting information. One of the most difficult things for me is that i feel ive lived my life in a state of confusion so often. Like i feel that i never know quite what the fuck is going on, although i am very intelligent. I see everything as a massive pile of details and i cant figure out what the essence is supposed to be without a lot of work and analysis A trap i can fall into is black and white thinking because its a relief from all the grey areas! In fact i was raised mormon (a cult) which gave me a basis for deciding what everything means. Once i lost that i had a hard time making any sense of the world.
I read this as "internet-based" nervous systems as if you were trying to imply our generation growing up on the internet affected our nervous systems, which like thats facts go off queen but how is that relevant to the video 😭 then I realized I made a mind typo lmfaoaoa
Wow! This was amazing and I really do identify and resonate so much. I just can’t believe others are also feeling the same things I am. Thank you to both of you 🥰
Thank you for having and sharing this discussion. I wish this issue had so much more awareness. I went through 6 mental health professionals before I was finally given the surprising diagnosis at 30 years old. The 4th was the head of the MH division at a large hospital in a large metropolitan. The 5th diagnosed the PTSD caused by the undiagnosed autism. The 6th was a MH specialist at a big hospital who told me that my undiagnosed autistic needs were unreasonable and unrealistic, ignored what I said, and organized with the family member who was destroying my mental health what I should do... while I was in the room. I spent about 1.5 months in the psych ward, with (I now realize) very obvious autistic behaviors, and when I was finally discharged I was given a form that just said that the reason for my hospitalization was 'stress'. Like actually just that one word. And even after diagnosis, no one touched upon the simple issue that had been harming me the most: getting proper sleep. Skipping every other trauma I've experienced in the endeavor of seeking help.. If not for the fact that I need diagnoses for additional issues, I'd happily go the rest of my life without having another MH session. Most critically, I don't ever dare talk at all about the most severe issue I have for fear that a mishandling of the issue could put me into a situation of perpetual and unwitting torture in a misguided attempt to 'help' me. And as the issue involves myself being a potential fatality, you should understand how messed up it is that 'getting help' for this issue could be fatal, or even worse. And as I've been dealing with it for over a decade, you can imagine how much damage it has caused in the interim. Even as I currently live and breathe, I've realized that it has made me susceptible to some very bad situations, and I have to guard very carefully against them. Others see it as irrational insecurities but I'm just here trying to stay alive. I don't even dare date without having someone on call to physicality pull me out of certain bad situations and get me the help I would need to recover.
Bless you both for this episode. So validating. I've been judged, corrected blamed, shamed and gaslit by the medical profession. I was told off for stimmingand shamed for it, when I was totally terrified and overwhelmed by the situation I was in. Thankfully I have since read, watched and researched nerodiversity, and saw so much of myself. I'm crying watching this and I'm so going to get her book.
Ooooh how much I love working with my autistic clients , this breaks my heart. How I wish this was titled 'bad therapy can be harmful.' In saying that I work with my clients to make sure the way I work is right for them and check in to make sure we're focusing on what they want support with.
I think perfectly “good” therapy can also be harmful, though, due to brain differences. For example, CBT is known to be pretty bad for ND brains but well-supported for NT ones. It’s not bad therapy, just the wrong one.
@@Cocoanutty0 Wrong therapy is bad therapy. Part of their responsibility is to assess what's helping vs harming. When they cannot do this, EVEN WHEN WE CLEARLY TELL THEM, that's malpractice level bad.
Yeah. It's like they don't get that these things aren't necessarily constant 100% of the time but they can go up and down depending on the situation. One could be having a great day and then WHAMMO ... something blindsides you and sends you into a tailspin!
Therapist: "How do you feel?" Me: "cold" Therapist: "I mean emotions" Me: "I dont know." Therapist: "you must know" Me: "All I felt was being cold but im beginning to feel annoyed now" 🙂
Hi Sam. I have been listening to you for a while but this is the first time I’ve commented, perhaps because at the age of 54 I got diagnosed several weeks ago with autism. A relief more than anything but a lot to work through. You were one of the people who helped the lightbulb go off. I particularly remember you mentioning you used to identify with being hsp and so did I. Just a clue along the way…. I think this episode is so important and validating. It is absolutely my experience with rubbish and often damaging therapy. I have never heard this opinion expressed before and it is so useful. I applaud your guest also. You are providing such an important service. Kudos to you! 🎉
I have tried therapy several time but it always end up me trying to explain myself and how i work so they can understand enough to actually help with my issues. But they never seem to grasp how i process stuff, so we never get anywhwere.
I went to therapy since i was a teenager and all through my 20s. As much as some of my therapists were good people, and some of these therapies did help me, i learned how to predict my therapists very quickly. I knew what they were going to tell me, i would predict this and apply it to what i said to them, how i interpreted verbally my situations and emotions. Not much came of it, and when i did allow myself to let down my mask my therapists woudl either get frustrated with me, invalidate me, or sit in silence feeling obsolete. I often pretended to consider things they suggested despite spending a huge ammount of time considering those things from many diffefent angles, i would do this out of a kind of submission and hopelessness. I would invalidate myself considering these things, searching for some other angle that i hadnt approached, and most of the time i had approached it at the angle they wanted me to but i felt forced to wipe everything clean and take on this incredibly simplified way of thinking that in no way touched my issues. One of my therapists knew me as someone who hated being asked how i was. I hated it because i couldnt answer it, i struggled with alexythymia, and when i did express how i felt it was considered dramatic. Everything about how i felt was over the top, whether it was my way of communicating, or my naturally intense state where i was constantly overhwhelmed, and the techniques i was taught in therapy only exasperated that. I thknk this is why i was diagnosed with bpd. One of the big things i have noticed about my being diagnosed as bpd, was that i was actually just a ND teenager with trauma, and trauma that others did not understand. I was told not to take my bullies seriously and was not believed when i told the therapists that the entire school hated me and i was known across multiple schools in my area. For them bullying happened with just one person or group of people towards an individual. Not almost every member of an entire school, and not with regular SA and physical assault mixed in. Bullying for an NT is someone stealing your pencil case, it is not going to school every day and finding bullying completely, and i mean completely, inescapeable. The bullying i faced was so extreme that it has affected me to this day, and it has contributed to my cptsd. During that time i was completely alone with my struggle, no one believed me and i was always blamed for it, i was told not to take it seriously, but how could i not when i couldnt go anywhere without shouts in the street and being seen as free game for quite horrific assaults by people that i did not even know the names of and hadnt even seen before, who certainly seemed to know everything about me. Moving schools 3 times did not help this. I suffer now from agoraphobia, and all therapists ever did was invalidate me. Telling me the bullies were 'silly' did nothing. Luckily now i have a therapist who is ND, i do not have to explain myself to her the way i did NT therapists, and she has been the most fantastic therapist ive ever had. I never have to put myself in a framework for her, she always listens and never invalidates me. In fact she never offers me any of that terrible advice, and never forces me to go over my traumatic experiences over and over again.
as someone who can relate to the experience you have described (not everything, obvi, as all of our circumstances are our own but a lot spoken here struck a strong chord with me): I don't know if there's a word to describe tremendous happiness coupled with relief, but I am so thrilled you were able to find a therapist who can actually accommodate to your needs and make you feel heard and seen in a world that wants to turn away. I can't begin to imagine the weight you have had to hold on your own and thank you for sparing the time + capacity to share this vulnerable part of you.
Thank you so much for bringing all of this up! I look forward to reading this book. As an Audhd person who started therapy at age 8 in 1973 and didn't get dx'd with Autism til 2021 ADHD in 2024 (!!!) misdiagnosed often and mis-medicated losing years of my life, it's horrific to me that people are trained to be mental health practitioners and they are so ignorant and damaging.
Discount code was wrong beforehand, "YoSam20" is the correct code. Apologies!
Sadly not valid on the JKP australian site
Thanks Sam, it's ordered!
@mozismobile Woodslane is the AU distributor of JKP, but they are separate to JKP (so have their own sales etc).
@@frolickinglions I guessed something like that, just hoping that they might be interested in making their own discount code. I'm well used to books being released months to years after "the world" in Australia, and not being eligible for discounts.
@mozismobile I just remembered I'm on Woodslane's mailing list. They have a code for 20% off autism & neurodiversity books until 30 April 2024 for Autism Acceptance Month. Code: AUTISM20.
The number one trauma of being autistic is being misunderstood. Our social environment is a huge factor in psychological safety, but being misunderstood by the very person you are reaching out to to help you with that is severely traumatic
❤️
Yeah. Just had that happen online - not with a formal therapist, but someone I was sincerely seeking help from regardless. They asserted I was "being a baby" "looking for a handout" because I _wanted very detailed explanation of what they were saying._ Apparently my repeated asks for details and clarifying questions just didn't go over well with them even though every single last ask was meant exactly as it was written. I wasn't looking for them to "do the work", I was looking for them to _COMMUNICATE,_ and they didn't want to do that.
I’ve felt extremely isolated throughout my whole life because of how much people have misunderstood me when I’ve tried communicating with them. It’s gotten to a point where if someone tells me they understand me, I have a doubting voice in my mind that says they don’t.
@@shimrrashai-rc8fq that is classic. "That autistic person is asking too many questions and I am mad!" This is why you need other autistic people for guidance. NTs don't understand why we need so much input. We need more input, more time and energy to process and more space for output. Because we have more neurons and more synapses on each one. They think we are exhausting and being difficult and challenging their authority. And we "don't understand how we are impacting" them. They think we are lacking empathy for them exactly because they are lacking empathy for us
@@ambassadoroftheandromedagalaxy "They made almost no effort to understand you, so why keep trying to reach out to them? stop trying to be understood, stop trying to explain yourself to people who aren't anything like you..."
This really resonated. Thank you for sharing.
Therapists not getting any training in autism is like medical doctors not getting any training in nutrition. It's one of the most important things for them to know!
And yet both are true
I don't expect to get help from a therapist and I don't expect to get nutritional advice from a doctor. It's a very sad Society we're living in.
It's also like doctors not getting any training in trans healthcare either 😅
@@salicaguillotines I totally agree with that one too
Everyone is autistic in a unique way…
Now that's just dead wrong. If "everyone" is autistic, then no one is!@@gothgammy666
My psychiatrist has always wanted me to "feel my feelings" and told me rationalising stuff won't work and was so surprised when it did work for me. Thinking about feelings *is* how I feel them, those aren't two oposing things.
Yes! I have to think through them usually to be able to ID them in the first place!
I hadn't heard it put that way. I get so frustrated. I heard about the tarantula study via Dr. Megan Anna Neff (AuDHDer, herself). Something she shared convinced me to work on "identifying feelings" (sigh of resolution).
@@RoseforthethornsYes, quite the process!
I think my feelings are being processed and come through my cognition as intuition. And I think that's a very valid way of being human.
OMGGGG even my therapist said thinking about it is part of processing, sad ur therapist didn’t think of that 🙃🙃🙃. But yes as soon as I started to logical my feelings it got extremely easy to emotionally regulate. Now it’s more about learning what I can’t handle and prepare for that but also know that I can’t plan my life away there will be things I can’t control so I prefer to focus on what I can control to set up a better future when I lived my life doing what my adhd side says too
"No amount of exposure is going to reduce our physical sensations"
I've been trying for roughly 75 years now to reduce my anxiety about socializing by socializing more. (Quick background: degrees in psychology, including studying conditioning). I self-diagnosed as having autism about a year ago and have spent a huge chunk of my time recalling and reconsidering events in my life, putting them in this new context of having autism. I, also, came to this conclusion about socializing and anxiety. Now I work on putting my energy into communicating my needs and limits about socializing; statements such as "Thanks for the invitation; I don't do parties" and "I need to finish up now, the noise is bothering me." Works a helluva lot better than trying to desensitize myself.
Yeah it took me 40 years to even realize that socializing was a choice and it was my choice. It's life changing. I dont socialize at all unless I feel I will receive substantial benefit from it. I don't do it out of routine, or obligation, or for the benefit of others.
Same, putting myself into uncomfortable situations as I was always being told I needed to step out of my comfort zone, doing things I hated just to please others, what a waste of time and energy that was.
Personally as someone who has had some success with reducing the impact of sensations, I think the thing people are missing is that it's not just having the sensations around, you also need to be able to integrate them, you need to be present, understand the sensation, feel it, and be able to understand that it's not threatening. But in an autistic brain and nervous system that is firing so much and already overwhelmed it's likely you have to instead actually go 10 steps back, start from the beginning, and learn to even be present with small sensations and feel and understand them rather than introducing new ones and hope that magically makes someone get used to it.
The issue I see is that the wide perception of what is our comfort zone and the reality are ofen widely different. My experience has been that things others would label being our comfort zone is already outside of it, outside the growth zone, in the panic zone where you can't really learn. So growth doesn't happen with adding things, but substracting from it.
That being said, I am not sure how far this works. It might just be because anxiety makes sensory stuff worse. I haven't had even improvement.
This is good advice. We need to be honest with ourselves and be vocal about it, otherwise, we'll be walked all over.
Thank you so much for your comment! Wow.❤
Yes, self regulation is a crazy thought to me. I have chronic pain, and I am always walking on glass. My Threshold is very small/thin for stress, then I have all the regular stressed of being an adult, a parent to an Autistic teenager, and finding out if I am Autistic. All these things eventually Elevate my pain leaving me bedridden. 😢
"Don't let therapy convince yourself that you cannot be the best judge of your own internal experience" This hit home! I am AuDHD. 3 therapies did nothing for me and the fourth harmed me. I ordered the book before completing the video. Thank you for all your validation! So much appreciated.
It's amazing how, even though we can vary so much in our traits, I feel more connected to those in the autistic community than I have in others (ADHD prevalent groups without autism).
I realise it is not completly true that all therapies did nothing for me, in one therapy the therapist directed me to look into ADHD, a topic which she herself knew nothing about, but had heard the term from another client.
@@sylviak824 That sounds about right. I think the only therapist who helped me was one who told me "maybe this is just the way you are" in response to me telling her approximately one thousand issues that I have with functioning and being social. Completely useless but at least not wrong!
It's like an internal form of gaslighting.
Can’t find the name of the title of the book, 📖 What’s the title and author ? Thank you !
I'm an autistic counsellor and this episode is so validating. Particularly the trouble with the whole "feel your feelings" thing. I've struggled with that immensely and was constantly criticised during my degree by lecturers for supposedly not being willing to be vulnerable or delve deep enough (when in the role of "client" in triads). It made me feel like I was broken, and the embarrassment and fear that this caused me sent my anxiety through the roof. Even with the knowledge that I am autistic, I felt so ashamed for what was clearly perceived by my teachers as a defecit. Still unpacking that as I navigate my practice. I so appreciate this wonderful conversation about such an important topic 💜
I’ve always struggled to identify the feeling in the moment, much less to feel the feeling itself. Feelings are so completely overwhelming that it makes it hard to function
Do u do counselling online?
@@minniethomas6206 I would love to know that too
We need more autistic Counselors like you!❤
I too am late diagnosed and also a therapist. I had the same experiences in training, so reading your comment is very validating to me. In addition to not being "emotionally focused" enough, I was often told that I'm "too pushy" because of my tendency to speak directly and with my genuine voice (instead of the sugary sweet "mother therapist" voice lol). Highly doubt a male clinician would have been told the same!
I will add that emotionally-focused therapy (which is what I practice) can be impactful and useful to ND clients, *if* it's offered without underlying assumptions that this is "right way" to process our feelings. So many of us struggle with interoception, which is the ability to know what we feel in our bodies. Building interoceptive awareness helps us better care for our physical needs (hunger cues, for instance), recognize relationship red flags, recognize sensory overwhelm, and all that good stuff. Helping my clients become more attuned (and find strategies to tolerate) the physical sensations in their bodies is a big part of my work, but I also know that sometimes people need to process more logically and analytically and that it's not my job to dictate when or how people experience their feelings.
Thank you for this video and all of the work you do on this channel. You were part of my process of discovering my Autism and it has opened up a whole new beautiful world for me
Every time i've tried therapy it has boiled down to being told I think incorrectly, like yeah this is what i've heard my entire life and part of the problem. Thanks for nothing
Inb4 "but CBT is evidence-based!"
@@amazinggrapes3045Haha, also "DBT is a safe modality!"
This! I say how my brain works and they go "it will get better and calmer with therapy" 🙄🤦♀️ THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS
That is why I hated CBT. But there are other types of therapy that can work if you get the right therapist.
@@Catlily5 thank you! Some of us are (a) autistic and (b) person-centred, and that has nothing whatsoever in common with clumsy CBT delivered by non-autistic therapists.
I have had several therapists ask me, sarcastically but I think well intentionally, "what is so special about you?" when I tried to tell them I felt different from everyone and that the things that work for other people aren't going to work for me. It gave me the most helpless, frustrated feeling. Now I know why and it was such a relief to find an explanation, though I had to figure it out myself.
All of that is so true, please tell me how you're doing now?
Nothing like expressing that you feel like you are different from other people, only to be told everyone feels like that sometimes, but it's not true. And yet the experiences others describe I don't relate to, and the experiences I describe others don't relate to. So how exactly am I not meaningfully different from everyone else? Learning I was AuDHD helped so much, because it validated that feeling. I *am* different from most people. It's not a distortion or a whiny teenage thing. Most people's brains simply don't work like mine.
When I was in third grade and complained that I didn't understand what the teacher was trying to explain she told me "you're not the center of the universe, the world does not revolve around you." I was devastated, this being the first time anyone had ever said anything like that to me. They had no idea I was autistic.
@@janicewinsor4793 wtf kind of response is that? teachers are supposed to help their students understand, not treat them like they're being self-centered for wanting help understanding.
@@janicewinsor4793sounds like a narcissist bat 🦇 projecting.
I tried therapy exactly once. All the same issues people are talking about here applied to my experience, pretty much. Probably the only reason it didn't make things worse is that I got very frustrated pretty early in the process and quit wasting my money/stopped going. So many therapists are weirdly incapable of dealing with the neurodivergent.
Edit: I'm glad to see so many in my age range (over 50) finally being able to put a name to our situation even if we're still trying to deal with it. When I was a kid, there was very little understanding of the spectrum, and if you weren't so debilitated you were nonresponsive, you'd just get written off as lazy, distracted, or otherwise just not trying.
I find it rather shocking that psychologists, psychiatrists, and other front line mental health professionals don't seem to know much about neurodivergence. Its like a general practitioner physician not knowing the warning signs for cancer. Sure they aren't the right person to treat it, but they would be the first person you would see who might refer you to a specialist who can.
They were the first people I went to, since in my perception I had "PTSD, depression, and anxiety", you know, like most neurodivergent people. I even told them later in the process "I'm almost certain I have PTSD and also something else." They were absolutely no help in finding out what "something else" was, and actively discouraged me from pursuing it, even though I wasn't responding to treatments (which they seemed to blame me for, rather than exploring other avenues). I'll certainly grant them that my PTSD/military trauma/complex grief/survivor's guilt were hiding some of the more subtle issues, but once that was cleared away and there were still problems, I really think the response should have been something better than "but you should be cured" (implied), "people don't get diagnosed with all sorts of things" (direct quote), "you are a help-rejecting complainer" (direct quote).
I "sElF dIaGnOsEd", got myself assessed against advice (at great expense), and got immediately diagnosed and treated for ADHD (possible AuDHDer, still getting re-assessed). I've also been "living as though I'm autistic" and managing sensory stimuli etc. I'm doing so much better now, as my "treatment resistant" depression and anxiety have greatly subsided, likely caused by untreated ADHD and powering through sensory over-stimulation. I apparently have an heroic capacity to damage myself by "toughing things out" and I've been learning to actually take care of myself. Neurodivergent self care is not the same as neurotypical self care. I don't think I've ever been this healthy, physically or psychologically.
I forgot to say, I really appreciated this video, this channel, and the people who put it on.
You should have a RUclips channel
I can relate to this so much! I need to get an official ADHD screening because I'm very sure that's part of the picture. I went against my last psychiatrist's recommendation a couple years back and sought an adult autism assessment which showed without a doubt that I was indeed autistic. Ended up firing my psychiatrist because she didn't accept that was what was really going on with my chronic, resistant to medication depression and anxiety. As if I hadn't spent the last 15+ years in and out of therapy and a psychiatrist's office trying all sorts of meds and CBT yet not feeling any better.
Also I've recently learned some of my "anxiety" has a physical cause. I have Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. So when I get up from laying down, my heart rate shoots up and I get dizzy, etc. I will also get dizzy and feel ill if I don't get enough salt and water during the day, if I get stressed, and if I get overheated. This was completely missed by doctors for 20 years because they told me I was just anxious.
@@thegracklepeck I'm going to ask you something really personal right now, what other things have you changed in your diet that have helped?
@thegracklepeck I have a strong suspicion I had POTS through my early forties. Never looked at, even when I ended up in the ER for what they decided was a “simple faint.” Nor when I had trouble with vasovagal syncope in my twenties. My BP has tended up over the years, so I don’t get dizzy standing up any more, but I still feel my anxiety increase when I get up and move around -and I spend too much time sitting as close to fully reclined as I can. All my EKGs have been sitting or lying down (!). I’d like to try a tilt test.
I was shamed too often for my social skills by therapists. Always trying to "help" me mask better rather than sort out my griefs and bad habits.
Unmasking has help me figure out who I am. You get to decide who you want to be not them.
Same. The first therapist I had, when I brought up my executive dysfunction, said to me "No, you can't be that/that's not a part of autism because I've had autistic clients before and they're really structured and organised." He also repeatedly reminded me to make eye contact after he found out I was autistic. He should be glad I'm the flavour of aspie who doesn't really have a problem with eye contact due to habituating over the years, but it was repeatedly irritating and insulting. I''ve gladly changed therapists now. I have someone who works with neurodivergent clients and specialises in my comorbid disorder (OCD), and she's GREAT. I just have trouble trusting her, or trusting anyone with my vulnerability really, due to previous experiences.
Personal experience: I actually find my social skills are getting better after unmasking, because that is actually unlocking a natural learning process where I can test things out and see how they feel and what is productive. I find that I need to tune out all those people talking about what isn't normal enough and focus on my own goals.
I was airing out my struggles with basic social interactions with my therapist, and told that people were reacting to my tone and "attitude." And I was crying 😢 because it made me feel like all my efforts to mask were failing so what was the point
“I’m literally telling you” then they analyze the “deeper meaning” when you tell them you speak literally! I experienced this after my husband died with an AWFUL grief therapist. She admitted she’d never even met an autistic person as far as she knew, let alone treated one. She REFUSED to watch SHORT entertaining videos on communication with us. INSISTED that I was “being sarcastic & dismissive” bc of my “anger over my husband’s death”. I ended up sobbing in frustration, then she felt satisfied that she was somehow helping me by “bringing my emotions to the surface”. She did so much harm during a time when I REALLY needed support.
😢 that is awful. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
@@nicolesmith3486 Thank you. I’m glad this video was posted. And that more autistics are entering the field. Hopefully fewer people will go through this in the future.
I’m so sorry you went through this. Did you get the support you needed??
@@TreeLore I randomly found someone on a reddit sub, who hooked me up with an amazing group. A bunch of complete strangers have become actual friends. I never did find a therapist. Several long time friends stuck around. 99% of my family & my husband’s too are gone and that is for the best. Sold our retirement home & moved. For an introvert I managed to make a few really supportive neighbor friends. We look out for each other. Our dog picked most of them haha! He also pulls me away from some people. He’s overly friendly so I pay attention when dislikes people. That’s unusual for him. People are usually fearful of him bc he’s really huge. They cross the street & then he flops onto his back and waves his long legs like he’s a large bug, jumps back up & wiggles his behind & tail at them & most will laugh. But some people cause his fur to stand up for no reason I can tell & he pulls me away HARD. I pay attention & follow him.
Boy, what a gaslighting piece of s**f therapist o.O
I am a 55 year-old late diagnosed Autistic. I've spent most of my life in therapy trying desperately to find out what was wrong with me that made life so recurrently difficult for me! I read every self help book on the planet and I've found it hard to click with many therapists, many who I felt knew less about psychology than I did! 😂
The psychiatrist who finally diagnosed me with ASD in my 50s was shocked that none of my previous therapists had ever suggested autism as a possibility as she said to her it was blatantly obvious immediately!
I was diagnosed at 55 by an excellent trauma therapist (a clinical psychologist). I'd suggested 4 years before when he and I first entered therapy together that I might be autistic... completely based on a book I read (Songs of the Gorilla Nation) only because I thought the book would be interesting. It was an autistic woman's journey and I found a narrator for the first time in my life whose thought processes were similar to mine. The therapist completely dismissed that because I was so insightful. And because I knew nothing else about autism, save for that book and the Rainman movie, I took his word. Mostly, I think the problem was that his experience had been with autistic men not women and that likely no autistic clients had ever suggested to him that they might be autistic. Over the course of the next three years it slowly dawned on him that I was autistic (likely because of the things he found himself saying to me that were keys to autistic behavior). Another year of observation and discretely testing out his theory he finally suggested to me that I was autistic and that was followed by much testing, which confirmed. Finally, my life made sense to me!
Hi Lisa. I’m a 54 year old woman who has just been diagnosed with autism. Your experience with therapy, reading self help books etc sounds almost identical to mine. Thankfully we now know!
Im 40, diagnosed adhd, same here, reading self help books trying to fix myself since I'm 16. therapy for the past 15 years. did not help. I feel exhausted tbh.
I was 30 by the time I got my dx, young compared to many late diagnosed autists, but already accumulated too much damage.
Diagnosed a few months ago at 51, I also read so many self-help and psychology books, and saw many therapists whom I felt did not understand me. My current therapist is young, open minded and non-judging, but she did not detect my autism, I found out by myself after watching a conference from Sarah Hendrickx. I am still grieving all these lost years of my life, thinking there was something wrong with me. What helped me the most in my decades of searching for answers, were books about spirituality and eastern philosophies. It helped me make sense of this life on Earth, and sail through rough waters.
Wow! I just realized that “Speaking the second language” of neurotypical behavior has been a survival mechanism for me. I think it’s a better descriptor for me than masking. It makes so much sense that learning to speak “neurotypical” helped me be successful in many ways, but of course, exhausting!
Stellar podcast!
can you help me understand what neurotypical type language is to you? i am just exploring new ideas about this all and unclear what the binary is still like it’s a hard line how ppl talk about it. i also just don’t cognizantly know what behaviors are to be considered one or, the other. thanks for any insights
i actually didn't like that analogy because i do speak a second language 24/7, but it's not tiring at all. It's significantly more tiring to try to switch back to my native language, because i'm so unused to it. I feel like languages are more like software, whereas neurodivergence is closer to the basic physical functioning of the brain. It's more like running a windows virtual machine on linux.
@@DesimereI think being bilingual or multilingual may be like that, not exhausting. But what if you're monolingual, but living in a foreign country with a different language and the only thing you have to help you communicate is a small phrase book that *you* are writing as you go along, but it's full of guesses and errors. That's what it feels like to me. Now, at 63, my book is fairly thick and comprehensive, much has been figured out through trial and error, but I'm still monolingual, still have to try to painfully translate, and am aware that my phrase book is still full of errors and gaps.
Yeah, that works better for me, too. I've never felt like I really wore a 'mask', per se, that attempted to conceal my true self. Instead, I tried to translate my thoughts, behaviours, etc into a form that others would comprehend - with limited success and using almost all of my 'computing power' to do that, with little to none left over for making my way through life, achieving goals, or whatever.
I've often thought about it as permanently dealing with a certain amount of culture shock, like if you go to a place where you've maybe researched the customs and you know at least SOME of the language...but you still get caught off-guard sometimes with differences you didn't expect, and you have to be THINKING about what words to use or whether to bow or shake hands, rather than just going on automatic pilot as most people do in their home culture. You can kind of stumble through, or maybe you feel really proud of yourself when you manage to nail it...but it is still quite tiring!
And, unfortunately, while foreigners with an accent or who look different from the local population may be given a bit of a pass because "they're not from around here"...autistic people usually don't because when it's YOUR culture you're not "supposed" to struggle with it to that extent!
I shutdown in a marriage counseling session once. Literally slumped across a pillow, but I kept answering the questions because I literally couldn't stop. Unfortunately, my wife was there too and it just made things worse between us. The next day, I had a meltdown in front of my wife. The next counseling session, he would not listen to me and kept calling it "rage", again in front of my wife. That was the last time I went to him and I have since found a therapist that actually listens to me and has been so helpful. She has an autistic son, and she has lately been considering if she's autistic as well.
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
I am glad however you found someone for you. 🙏
I was told that I was being argumentive when I told my therapist to stop trying to speak for me and stop interrupting me when I speak. I speak slower because it takes time to process what they *might be saying*
I agree a therapist should be someone who's able to meet you on your level.
I've been told I'm argumentative when I'm trying to explain something that they've misunderstood. I'm just trying to make sure they understand properly, and they see it as me arguing. I'm not being defensive.
@@LELIE- I relate to this so much! I'm not trying to argue, I just want to clarify they understand me, and I understand them. What is so wrong with that?!
I once took a dementia test and scored 30 out of 30. The shrink said I passed it but that I was slow in answering the questions. He always had to have his dig in. When I told him I wanted to see a psychiatrist, he was ready to say, I am a psychiatrist. I think he got the point.
When you said therapy teaches you 'you can't be the best judge of your internal experience' this really resonated with me. CBT taught me to gaslight myself about my socially anxious thoughts, when a lot of the time I was actually right about people not liking me 😅
Yes. Recent events in my life have made clear to me that when my instincts are screaming “something is wrong,” there can be an actual reason for that. I can have trouble understanding what it is my instincts are screaming about, but while my dysphoria can color it, it generally doesn’t invent something out of nothing. In theory, drilling down to what the problem is should be what therapy is for. It’s not all just a matter of changing your outlook, for crying out loud. And it’s not just about what happened when we were 3. Real sh*t happens to people all the time.
What's really boneheaded is how they'll do that, while at the same insisting on working on social skills. LIke
"you're pathetically bad at 'normal' interaction-- but hey, why are you anxious?" Even when I was fired from a job due to clear discrimination, my therapist suggested I somehow brought it on myself. Like my so-called "awkwardness" was at fault rather than sexism. Rather than acknowledging that I'd been bullied, the therapist was on board with the bullies. While believing she was doing the right thing! NOTE: I called her on it, and she took responsibility, and she did help me during the next few months. But I feel like, why am I always having to train my therapists? Even the highly trained, highly experienced ones.
@@annamyobbecause they're ultimately just human just like you, with bias and stereotyped ideas that they don't even know they have. 😅
@@lilar1053 Yes. And sometimes they are also able to recognize that and take responsibility. When they don't, they often do harm. Part of their training is supposed to work on this... but their teachers can only make them go through the process, can't guarantee how much of it will stick.
SAME
I once tried therapy and before first session I said I'm AuDHD. She was surprised but said alright. At first session when I was explaining what's going on and said I had thought I had panic attacks but after diagnosis I realized those were meltdowns. She asked me "aren't those the same thing?" and that's when I decided that this is not gonna work and never showed up again
Yup, that seems to be a common misconception. (As is anxiety = panic attacks.) I can do both, and while they share some similarities, they are soooo different!
@@jimwilliams3816yep
Always thought I had panick attacks, even I didn't shared the thought I would die or wanted to call ambulance. The opposite! Wanted to go somewhere dark and hidden where I can stay alone and wait until it is over.
Then ONE TIME I had a panick attack with vomiting and feeling really sick, heart beat running, etc.
It was horrible.
Oh😮 it was at this last therapist, before I had to go in. Ha.
To come back: when I realized I am AuDHD not just ADHD I got "oh, these had been those shutdowns/ meltdowns. I see.
Good call, you dodged a bullet.
I hate having to educate professionals about my own diagnosis lol. Good call. We shouldn’t have to be responsible for teaching them about autism and the terms. They need to be trained on this stuff.
As an autist... What is the difference? Mental breakdown's a mental breakdown to me
„The problem is not the behavior, it‘s the experience.“ Thank you! I just can‘t get over the fact that almost nobody gets it …
Thought policing oneself is exhausting
I tried to get diagnosed recently and it was very traumatic. It was insane how the psychologists twist & turn what you’re trying to say and completely downplay the difficulties of language processing issues, even though a neuropsychologist discussed this with me after a QEEG. They do blame it on 2-3 decades old, definitely never updated, diagnoses that never took language processing issues into account while speaking to me. They talk down on you, you get shamed, just bc you can’t get across what you want to say. When I read words that describe how I felt as a child and what I experienced, I’m not trying to fit it into my childhood! They try to fit me into their mold and that’s supposed to be different and ‘better’. When I say “I don’t know” it’s bc I can’t access that information in my brain, bc it’s overwhelmed.
In the Netherlands they say they can never diagnose me with Autism just bc I don’t have any reliable witnesses from childhood. Only my memories and they are considered ‘unreliable’.
It’s frustrating, overwhelming, degrading, demotivating.
I don’t ‘fit’ in that world.
Thank you for addressing this 🙏🏼🌺
Diagnose yourself... who cares what the medical profession thinks! I wont even ask German medical professionals.
I'm wondering if you could have a diagnosis over zoom with a therapist from overseas? But I agree with the other commenter, it sounds like you already know!
@@Roswell33its illégal unfortunately
I’m so sorry. But you are confirming my sense that trying for official diagnosis wouldn’t be useful at this point for me. (Open to the idea that it might be eventually, but I suspect that I’m too high-masking/“low support needs” to get a diagnosis or a diagnosis that would qualify me for any useful support/treatment…)
@@aliceanneacts6164 just need to practice unmasking before then
I feel like I need therapy just to help me overcome the therapy I've already had.
Where do you stand spiritually?
@@janicewinsor4793 Agnostic atheist.
I believe we're in a simulation, our true self on the outside and that is what our God is.
@@janicewinsor4793well if that's true it's utterly useless information
So what are the characters in a game being played out my individual Gods. Which means anything that happens here is not important right?
I tried online therapy and six therapists . None of them understood me and made me traumatised . I find channels like this a lot more helpful and helps me understand myself more
Peer support is so important. Ever notice how therapists never encourage us to seek it? They're afraid of losing clients...and should be, given how poor a job so many of them do. Many of us would never have "needed" therapy if we'd had support from our families and peers...
@@annamyob yes you’re so right
I hate the silent treatment accusation. I came back from work completely overstimulated so I just sat on the couch in earplugs and eyemask in the same room as my mom was and she asked "are you isolating yourself from me?". So instead of resting I was explaining how overstimulated I was and if I was isolating I wouldn't be sitting in the same room as her, would I?
I'm not diagnosed, but this was me during covid when I had to stay at my moms, pause school, and get some crappy job as a barista :( I'd come home and just sit in my bed to have silence in my mind and go on my phone because it distracted me from my body and mind from being stressed out and overwhelmed/underwhelmed....my mom would tell me I didn't like to spend time with her and was "always in my room". The time I actually got her to understand was I started crying talking about my feelings. She came back 10 minutes later and said I made her feel guilty on purpose by crying and that I was lying🤷♀️ my mom's bipolar and manic
just readign that made me feel exhausted... ^^'
And why would it be a problem if you are isolating yourself? You are your own person, not part of your mom. Does she struggle to understand that? Everyone needs their own time and space.
@@baronred7600 To be honest I was absent for 2 weeks because I liv3d at my workplace. I'm also young adult and still live with her when I'm not working and she's not used to me being away. I totally get that she's missing me and she's just more expressive with her feelings.
I remember how years ago one of my therapist decided that I should try exposure therapy in a "controlled" way. She explained to me that it was completely safe and proven to work. So I agreed, we opened "Pandora's box" in regards to one of my complex traumas and weeks later she told me that, despite this being proven to always work, I was getting worst and worst and worst, so we should stop it. She never taught me how to close the box, nor gave me tools to deal with the emotions. She expected me to feel them until they were all out and processed and, when she saw that I couldn't do it, just told me to stop(???). As I said, years had passen and there has not been a single day nor second on my life in which I havent feel the horrible consequences of what we did.
I love all stuff related to brains, nervous systems and how they work. That one therapist helped me a lot in certain things, but istg if there's one, i haven't been so fucked up in my life as i've been then pasts years.
Not all therapy is good for everyone, some therapy can be really bad for you and it may break you.
Oh dear! Sorry it went that way and left damage.
Sometimes if you try tap therapy it helps you overcome things.
😳 uhh, that sounds horrible!
How did You manage to "close the box", "stop" later?
I mean, You didn't end up getting "pure crazyness" (don't know how to explain in english), so You Manager somehow later, unless still dealung with it.
Maybe You can teach me a helpful thing...
I mostly " felt" what therapist wanted to make me feel IN therapy session a bit later on my way home or home. And then I felt completly overwhelmed by it with np idea how to manage it. Took me days to recover. That took so much energy I decided it is not helpful. Then therapist/psychiatrists say "You have to go through it, can't run away from your feelings." Haha, You don't know.
Sadly I didn't know too that time.
My dear sibling, I just want to remind you that feeling permanently broken is itself a symptom of PTSD, and isn't the truth. I had a similar experience with trauma therapy, and such damage does heal over time. We do process things differently than NT's. I am also skeptical of therapy, especially for the neurodivergent getting therapy from uneducated providers. Imagine a surgeon cutting a person open, deciding the treatment wasn't going to work, and exiting the room without closing the wound. Stay true to yourself and you can find your way back to a better place.
Just one tool that I personally used is TRE, just dropping that in case it's helpful.
Literally just had to stop my CBT as I fell into a mental health crisis from it. This video and book recommendation couldn't have come at a more appropriate time. Thank you so much for putting this together.
As a member of the ASD community I always find it difficult to have any type of therapy. It always feels more like I am being studied for the benefit of the therapist than attempting to help me with anything. It just feels like you get pushed to your limits and sometimes beyond almost to see how I react. I find that happens to me in daily life regardless so it’s not really helping me. I’m not going to logic my way out of being ASD. Anyway, that’s my whinge. I’m sure the right type of treatment by the right therapist would have more of a benefit, but so far I haven’t found it useful.
what types of therapy did you try. Heard that CBT and autism don't really mix. Have you tried Cognative Analytic Therapy (CAT), I have heard thats a bit more approchable for neurodivergants.
@@antlerman7644I had CAT I didn’t even understand what it was trying to achieve. The only thing I could figure out was that they were trying to make me give up my coping mechanisms.
@@tracik1277@tracik1277 "I had cognitive behavioural therapy at one point, but my therapist's approach didn't work for me. They asked me to imagine myself in the middle of the ocean, which is something I'm terrified of, and then told me, "You have to want to get better." I felt ashamed and realized that I felt worse after the sessions, so I stopped going. It's become clear to me that not all therapists have the knowledge or understanding to help their clients effectively, and some are more focused on ticking boxes than providing personalized and helpful therapy."
The “being studied for the benefit of the therapist” part is the reason why I stopped CBT therapy 😔 I felt exactly as you described.. it really felt like I was going there just to talk to a friend and get validated for my everyday experience, without any helpful tip from the therapist. He also seemed to just ask me questions about how I react to certain things in daily life interactions and point out to me how neurotypicals do it differently. How is that even helpful? I felt he didn’t even empathize with me or my problems, as if I have no heart or no emotions. I think this experience showed me that neurotypical therapists are generally not well suited for Autistics.
I'm AuDHD with some anxiety disorders and bipolar II for spice. DBT has been massively helpful for me. I've struggled a lot with realistic framing for my thoughts and feelings in the past, and it's helped me both with identifying them and with correcting the unhelpful narratives I tell myself about them.
I doubt I have autism, cptsd is a more likely diagnosis, but I recognise myself in quite of a lot said. The fact that they refused to accept I know my own emotions and needs, confident that a few hours of chatting meant they knew me better than I knew myself... It was pretty damning.
Paul Micallef just did a piece on “9 mistakes therapists make.” They are really mistakes regardless of who the patient is. It’s especially bad for anyone experiencing serious mental health distress. Having it suggested that the person with the degree knows it all and you know nothing is not a healthy message for anyone, especially someone who might be questioning their own legitimacy as a person.
@@jimwilliams3816 Exactly why I consider it a sort of gaslighting and some of the worst kind because it makes you doubt your own ability to really know your own self. It's abuse!
@@jimwilliams3816 Thanks for pointing me that way. Will watch it soon.
It is really a golden rule of a lot of therapy schools that they're breaking. Unless the thing they're insisting on is like "no, you're wrong, you really aren't worthless" then they shouldnt be insisting at all and just offer it in the spirit of "total speculation"
@Mrhola-tz6wc Well, one trait of a sociopath is they are good at reading people, it's why they can manipulate so well. But here, I think we're just talking plain old arrogance. They obviously DON"T read us, but think they do.
Safety is the most important aspect. You have to acknowledge that nothing can be processed in therapy without it. If you feel unsafe with any therapist leave!
Yeah but, what if you've been so bullied and isolated your whole life, it's hard to feel safe with ANYONE you don't know well? Kind of a catch-22 for therapy.
OMG "you're very self aware"
Is something I've heard so often in my life but especially from mental health professionals.
"You're thinking wrong thoughts stop it" I feel this sentence so hard re enrich time I've tried CBT
I've never heard anybody tell me I was too self aware, what does that mean. I would think being a self-aware was a good thing.
@janicewinsor4793 I’ve never had a mental health professional tell me I was too self aware, just very self aware. I think they did mean that it was okay, though perhaps not something they experience with everyone. In my case I think they were reacting to the detailed observations I made about myself, and maybe my awareness of inner neurological sensations. I still have trouble telling if a lot of those sensations are emotions or not, though.
So it's because we analyze everything then. If someone is trying to figure out the world, they have to analyze everything. If the world doesn't make sense, you either analyze it or give up.
I was a very serious child constantly being told to lighten up. I tried to learn how to be a child. For me my emotions are on the surface I cried pert near constantly it seemed. All you had to do was yell at me, and it was like you'd slap me in the face and I would start to cry. Fortunately my parents had no money to take care of what was wrong with me. I had to figure it all out on my own, and now at 62 I think I have.
@@janicewinsor4793I am 61, born in '62, and am late-Dx ADHD & later self-IDed AuDHD. I relate to your experience that you've shared. I was (am) so sensitive to sharp reprimands, as a child I'd dissolve into tears & hide, trying hard not to cry. Along with other persistent experiences gotten worse w/ middle age, this leads me to be fairly certain I have RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria) which seems like it should be added to the DSM.
Not that this is related, other than it seems to be a common profile or comorbidity with us AuDHDers: another profile that would explain some difficulties that rendered me unable to work is PDA: Pathological Demand Avoidance, aka Pervasive Drive for Autonomy.
While I'm on a roll with what I call TLAs (three-letter acronyms) that are potentially relevant and sometimes helpful, EDS (Ehlers-Danlos syndrome) - hypermobile type, for me - was extremely helpful in my search to quantify my growing list of physical problems needing care. POTS & MCAS are frequently associated with EDS. Although I haven't been found to meet diagnostic criteria for these last 2, I personally recognize some of the symptoms even if on a subclinical scale.
You may already know about these, but I thought I'd share for anyone else who is in a similar boat. I found each of these to be particularly helpful in my quest for answers.
I'm late diagnosed AuDHD. Thank you so much for this video!!!!!! I did feel CBT was not helping me and made me think there is something wrong with me. and one day I found a video about CBT and autistic people. now watching your video and it clicked me even more! very good content and I learned a lot from you guys. thank you.
Anthony William Medical Medium for autistic and adhd protocols.
I used to be PA to the senior MH commissioner for the our area. He was responsible for deciding funding for all MH services. Even he hated CBT, he used to call it 'whack-a-mole' therapy because even if it works all it does is redirects the behaviour and the problems to other behaviour which can be worse. But because the original behaviour may reduce it is successful. The truth is that it is repression which either becomes redirected or returns worse because the energy has been pushed down for a period of time. It does not deal with the issue that causes the behaviours at all. It's like putting a sticking plaster over a bullet hole and expecting it to be OK. I refuse to do CBT at all costs
Therapy went the same for my mom and me: We analyzed the therapists problems and what he/she wanted to hear and helped them get on with it.They were very proud of how well it went. :-))
This!
Been there. Many times.
Oh yes, especially my last one. 😂
They're so transparent in what they want to get out of a person, aren't they? Then we just produce a mask that fits their expectations and they think they've performed a miracle. The only problem is it leaves you feeling so minimized, knowing that you conformed to someone else like that
The problem isn't the therapies, when applied to the correct situations they have merit. The problem is this attitude that some therapists have that they know better than you do, and that they're never incorrect.
Exactly! It's like my one counselor did correctly identify an issue that came up in a "problem" situation but at the same time she was actively working hard to _deny_ another, _simultaneous_ issue that was going along with it in the same situation that I _knew_ was no less relevant.
Yeah, when I tried to tell my ex-therapist that some things she does don't work for me or that I need to slow down with them, she told me that she won't let me rule over her and control her, that she's the one who knows more and is directing what we do. It looked like she got triggered by me giving her feedback.
But I also think that certain types of therapies help the therapists to be compassionate, understanding and curious and that there are some types that provoke and support 'I know better' kind of attitude. I.e. there's lots of power play wording in CBT guideline books
I don't fully agree with the idea that therapy itself can never be the problem (not every method is right for every person and every situation), but yeah. So many psychologists don't understand or make room for autistic experiences, and end up trying to force us to fit the therapy/denying or reframing our experiences instead.
It's actually really interesting what I am now getting out of CBT stuff now that I don't have a therapist and realized I don't need to reframe in a way that is socially acceptable.
I ended up figuring that the general idea of reframing my thoughts to something better was often not very helpful. I am now realizing that those positive thoughts are actually the reason for my anxiety, they give me pressure, make me anxious to perform well so things work out or of the huge drop when things don't work out. So what I ended up changing is actually my strategy: From trying to reach specific goals to just learning from experience, from seeing threats to considering what risks are worth taking. I didn't need to be more positive, I needed to be more grounded in the here and now and what choices I can make.
So a lot of the time my solution was actually "opt out of the unhelpful judging" but no one ever talked strategy with me, and that was really unhelpful for me, I needed an actual clear strategic picture of what I would be doing.
The reason I'm the one laughing now is that now when a therapist is saying that I need to do this and that I can in my head go "that's an unhelpful thought" and dismiss it. I needed CBT to be free from judgy therapists. In a way I ended up learning from them. When life gives you lemons you make lemonade I guess.
And it's not just therapists. I have a rare, badly studied and lesser known medical condition, and initially I went to specialists to understand why I had those chronic pains. Only one of them had the humility and honesty to tell me "I don't know what you have", the others dismissed half of my symptoms to shoehorn a bs diagnosis in because of course they had to know better... I ended up finding what I had in an obscure scientific paper in a lesser known medical journal, which helped a lot with a couple of recommendations that were actually helpful.
The medical community lets down so many people out of sheer arrogance...
I've told my therapist my nervous system is crazy, I'm not. This video is so validating.
Well put. The nervous system is designed to win fights in certain circumstances too.
The concept of the triune brain did a lot for my understanding of my fight or flight. The nervous system goes way back to jellyfish. I think it was with mammals that the limbic system really got going. The cortex is the most recent addition to cognition, and humans have the largest prefrontal cortex of any species.
All these additions piled new functionality on top of older systems without any ground-up redesign. When you do this to a computer program, it eventually becomes unstable -which is where I think humans have gotten to. As a species we are smart but kludgey. And produce a certain number of system errors.
@@jimwilliams3816 omg I absolutely love this. Unstable is a pretty good label. I imagine if we are an alien science experiment there is a label on our universe and that's exactly what it says "Unstable" 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Oh Sam this is such a good conversation and important topic! Few days ago I was recalling my therapies I went to few years ago (when I was undiagnosed and completely unaware I'm AuDHD) for depression who told me to "try harder" and "go out of my comfort zone" when I tried to explain how difficult I find interpersonal interactions - especially with people I didn't know or knew on a very not-deep way. These meetings left me thinking I'm even more failure at life than I was before.
I'm now diagnosed and I talk with a therapist who 1) is autistic herself and 2) psychology especially of neurodivergent people is her special interest - so she's great and our conversations are so good.
Yeah I'm being told I'm not getting enough sleep and it's childhood trauma. No, I've been sleeping good, not tired, and I'm old enough that I've moved past any childhood trauma. My parents don't affect my life anymore.
And in reality we're just different and people treat us differently making us think there's something wrong with us, which just makes those situations all the more difficult. What we need are things that work for us and also allow us to get the human contact / connection we need.
@@AKcess_Dnied (like, "Uh, yeah.... AND I am autistic!).
@@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS yes precisely this! I think the knowledge about neurodiversity is spreading, so hopefully therapists will catchup with it, because this is essential for providing right type of therapy to the right type of brains.
My therapist denied I'm autistic. I'm only diagnosed because my psychiatrist referred me for evaluation shortly before turning 36 after decades of mental illness, social problems, emotional instability, poor self-esteem, and general failure at life, so it's not like I was fishing for a diagnosis.
Yes🎉
I loved my last therapist, she helped me navigate my relationship with my mother, which at the time was my biggest problem. But the second my psychiatry diagnosis came in and I was believed to be AuDHD, she started getting so defensive about it and would tell me not to label myself ever and that I didn't have anything going on other than anxiety. I had to stop seeing her and I'm looking for another therapist who specializes on these issues.
So sorry. Thankfully teacher saw an issue. My K teacher made me cry and traumatized me pulling me by the arm saying “how do you spell your name?” Apparently was not putting my name on my work nor participating much. K teacher wrote letter home about “stern talking to” “ can siblings help me learn my name and write it”. Before you know it I “was better and participating”. None I remember 💞🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💞💙👊👊
@@kellyschroeder7437😖 argh! What a pity!
Keep looking. Find someone who specializes in diagnosing adults.
I was ruined on therapy in grade school. The therapist told my parents everything I said to them. Now, I trust nobody.
this is criminal jfc...
Religious school? May have not been a therapist, may have been a family friend pretending to get info
@@TheAlyconaria I had a medical issue and I think they were trying to figure out how tweaked my brain was from a high fever.
My son is in school therapy and the therapist asked if I wanted her to tell me everything he said. I said no, that felt wrong to me! I said only if there are major concerns. I’m sorry your parents did this. It’s very sad.
@@jennacallahan1 what the hell this is so unethical... I wouldn't trust this therapist, frankly
As a therapist, (who is looking to support her autistic patient) I am deeply disappointed in the therapeutic practices you guys were hurt by. In my training (gestalt) we were taught to NOT do all those hurtful and dismissive things with anyone, let alone someone with a neurodivergent experience. Thanks for explaining the pitfalls to avoid with my clients!
So where did you get into being the therapist, what's the problem you wanted to fix about yourself?
As a late diagnosed (50's) Audhd student therapist, I am so appreciative of this content. I'm currently in the final year of a BSc in counselling and psychotherapy, not a single module dedicated to understanding neurodiverse clients. Thank you!
I presented with executive function issues, and was diagnosed depressed. Which started me on the same long path of wrong diagnosis after wrong diagnosis, like so many others. I am glad to know there is one up and coming therapist who won't do that to future clients!
yes yes yes!! i had such bad experiences with therapy. no one seemed willing to even consider my experience - that i didn't have "negative thoughts", at least nothing more than average and nothing i wasn't perfectly capable of questioning etc on my own, but rather that i *feel* anxious and depressed *regardless* of my thoughts. no matter how i explain it, no matter if i use personal metaphors or technical-ish language ("i need to regulate my nervous system, not change my thoughts" etc), therapists and counselors just cannot understand. it made me so so angry in the end, i just gave up. now i'm stuck being prescribed medication that i don't want to take, with no access to the kinds of treatment that could actually help me.
For me there's a disconnect between what my brain says and my body feels, maybe that's what you mean?
There's also the masked me and the unmasked me trying to argue about how I should be, I wouldn't call it 2 personalities because it's ME but definitely different ideas on things.
@@AKcess_Dniedthat sounds familiar
Yeah, that was one of the things that frustrated me so much about CBT. My feelings are unrelated to my thoughts. I can believe I'm perfectly safe and still *feel* extremely anxious and unsafe. I'm not experiencing any kind of negative thought spiral. It's just an overwhelming sensation in my body that I cannot ignore and which is actively stressing me out and impairing my ability to function (so I can't just ignore it and get on with life). No amount of rational thinking is going to fix this, because I'm not being irrational in the first place.
Society is not made for nor doesn't want to accommodate for autistic needs, but demand so much from us for what we can do, but do not value our humanity. Therapists, especially those who have been therapists for a long time may have been in the career long enough when Autism did not exist in the social mainstream can be the most harmful, I found. I was diagnosed with autism as an infant, but I also have ADHD - so AuDHD. I have also been misdiagnosed for ASPD despite the fact I have exhibited multiple times to that therapist back when I was a teen that I love animals and caring for them and their needs, and want them to be safe and happy. I have CPTSD from having so many abusive people in my life that I had difficulty trusting anyone other than pets/animals, and love human creativity/arts and nature and hate money/greed, but sure, I'm "Functionally evil" to this therapist.
My last therapist had demanded so much from me and not understanding why there was no feedback as the "advice" boiled down into: "Just do better at school!" "Get a job regardless of your needs!", or "Have you considered prayer?" and that was my cue to just drop her. Why is there so much ignorance on this that it turns into arrogance?
Yes! 👏 I felt so many times that society is unnecessarily cruel to us!
I am late diagnosed AuDHD, every therapy session I have ever had up until this point has been a total disaster.. to the point now that i don't trust therapists. the fact that they are not taught anything about Autism and neurodivergent thinking comes as no surprise to me at all.
Therapy shouldn’t be a catch all. More Pediatricians need training on identifying traits before school age so kids can go to therapists that specialize in autistic care. Pediatricians are often so I’ll equipped and often times it’s teachers who identify an issue
I diagnosed myself at age 52. Lifetime of therapists and gp Dr missed it. They caught ocd and adhd, but not autism. They helped me somewhat. But missed the biggest thing of all. I hope they start being trained in this subject
Thank-God! For that! Do you realize the amount of control and discrimination and otherness they make for those labeled? You are literally branded a 2nd class citizen. Sometimes even 3rd Class.
@Oysters176 yes... ive considered this when deciding whether or not to get the official diagnosis
@@Autisticheather The reason why I love my grandma her and not my mother, is because my grandmother actually treated me like a normal human being. Yes, throughout my life I had to consider political Strategy just to keep my head above the water.. But my grandma is the reason I can love.
My child, who has Autism is doing therapy with a very caring person, yet she is practing masking. She is told that to get a job, she needs to interview. I understand why, but I want my child to stop masking and be comfortable with themselves.
Preparation for interview should not be how to mask. It should be how to introduce yourself as an autistic person in a way that sets the stage for a good interview. How to negotiate interactions with normies WITHOUT having to mask. How to know and advocate for your rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But how many therapists know anything about all of that? Most of them don't even understand the very basics of autism. Disability Services department of local university might be good resource. Also if there are any support groups near you of and by auties.
@@annamyob Thank you ❣️
An employer who won't hire you based on the real you as an autistic person will get rid of you at the first sign of difficulties. How do I know? Been there, several times. It's very hard to find an employer that will hire you knowing your cognitive deficits and all the consequences, but it's the only employer who will keep you.
In 1991-92 I was the victim of a therapist on a power trip. I'm 58 & still undiagnosed. THANK YOU FOR THIS!
The number one trauma of Autism (I'm AuDHD) is being homeless later in life due to being misunderstood and not getting jobs based on not often passing the interview. Luckily, it hasn't been a long time for me but still. I started to work on myself to help me mask later in life. But it was a bit too late. I envy you guys who have the luxury of not having to change your traits just to survive. You have a good thing always be thankful for it.
Your experience is valid. Autistic People in vulnerable position are masking for survival and it breaks my heart
Thank you for understanding. I wish I could be myself. The world sucks. I wish I would've persisted in trying for the IT field when younger.
The lack of Autism awareness is a huge issue worldwide. People don’t understand it. Some just don’t want to understand it.
My asd son has helped me see the world through different eyes.. different perspective.
Autism =Unique in every way
I love autistic people. We’re amazing.
When I encounter another aspie/autist in the wild, it's obvious right off the bat and I am thankful for finally having someone to engage in intelligent conversation with.
We are the best ❤️❤️❤️
The thing about meditation making things worse is so spot on - 1. Body scans are torturous when I'm in any amount of pain 2. There was one that made you fake smile because your body allegedly realises endorphins even when not happy - nope only neurotypical bodies do that I got incredibly depressed from the cognitive dissonance of smiling when depressed.
My mother: " Just think positive thoughts, your day will improve. Don't let anything get to you!😀" Pretty sure that doesn't work for me, and the more I try, the worse the voices that counter those thoughts will get, but what do I know, eh?
And if the body doesn't release those endorphins, you will be told you didn't do it right, didn't do it long enough, or have unrealistic expectations.
Never could it be that one size fits all solutions don't exist.
Meditation in the “try not to think” fashion made anxiety so much worse for me as it is compulsive. But I find the mantra ones helpful if u chant a phrase over and over again (like there’s a directive) or just rest and be loving to yourself and let your mind wander without judgment. IDK if it will help w you but I found it helpful a lot.
Best meditation ever is repeating a mantra that does the job for you. You dont even have to focus. You just do it. It helped me a lot. It helps calm the inside and bring harmony overtime.
Therapy can often be a waste of time and money. My experience.
I totally agree, and I would love you to hear you elaborate further?
Agree!
the most traumatic for autistic person can be is group therapy where we can feel all the problems and still dont understand why all that happend and what to do, and therapist can tell you're not trying hard enough and the problem is in you.
Yeah, i had a therapist who wanted me to do group. Pretty sure her reason was to 'prove' to me that my social issues were all my own fault. Fortunately, she and the place she worked for never got their act together enough to find a group for me, so that's at least one bullet i dodged. I shiver thinking how much such a group could have traumatized.
I also had a therapist who wanted me to try online group...on Zoom 🤢I absolutely detest Zoom calls, so I was not keen on the idea. But to be "open-minded," I attended the online intake & info session, where the entire group who would be involved attended and introduced themselves to each other.
One session of interacting with everyone else was enough to show me that I'd be doing myself harm by attempting to participate, and I refused to continue. I'm proud that I stood my ground on that. I avoided potential trauma and energetic exhaustion by recognizing that space was not appropriate for me.
Yes! Body dysmorphia, deep self hate and life long trauma is what I got out of that
I'm in my 50s and have spent my whole life trying not to be wrong, at times giving up, falling into addiction, had much therapy, "very self aware" was said a lot, yes it often overwhelmed me. self soothing has been seen as avoiding, etc. It has been messed up, I only hope this helps someone. Still trying to get diagnosis of autism: in the uk it is impossible atm as nhs is broken. One thing I will say is: I will not give up, and I implore everyone to adopt this attitude, then we will win in the end and be more recognised as autistic, different, but valuable for those differences, not despite them.
Yes! I’ve been “accused” of being too self aware! Sigh.
Re: self soothing as avoidance
Lately I have been trying to recontextualize my "lazy" and procrastination-related behaviors (watching RUclips for example) as an unconscious attempt to recover from burnout.
I reiterate what I've been saying in another comment: I think one if the biggest problems is that people misjudge our comfort zone. Like there is comfort zone, growth zone and panic zone, and we're often in our panic zone and need to dial down to get into our growth zone and learn, rather than adding things, cuz you can't properly learn when you're panicking.
@@toni2309 one thing I did learn from traditional therapy is the importance of not comparing my inner experience with someone else’s outer appearance/apparent situation. Here’s hoping more neurotypical folks can understand that the line between growth and panic can be in a very different places for individuals, especially neurodiverse individuals. (Will try to be more aware of this myself after this also.)
Maybe not in my lifetime, but it is something I could passionately work torwards, in helping that change to take place.
I found a therapist who was so affirming but the difficulty was that I just talk in circles. I don’t get anywhere, and I don’t truly process and go into further distress when I don’t have someone guiding me and providing structure. I started somatic therapy and it was a huge difference from all my years of talk therapy, so that’s where I’m headed now. I’m so tired of talking. I don’t have capacity for so much verbal speech. And it’s just retraumatizing me instead of helping me heal c-PTSD. I wish more of us had access to body based approaches modified for us but I know it’s hard to find.
Try impossible,
@@janicewinsor4793 well I want to do something about that. I used to be a therapist and I couldn’t offer somatic approaches because they always triggered me when I tried them. And I had no training in it and couldn’t go on that journey myself. Now that I do have that privilege I hope if I get less sick I can return to the community and provide more accessible supports someday. The way you feel is your reality and it isn’t fair. It needs to change. I’m only one person but I know many other autistic therapists since I am part of that community still and I want to see more positive changes.
But one thing that definitely has to be considered is that a person can definitely have more than one problem. I for example also cope with agoraphobia but there's other things as well. I'm sure the agoraphobia started out as me trying to cope with the way people reacted to me.
@@janicewinsor4793 I have agoraphobia too!
I feel the same way. I feel like I'm just talking and getting no further forward. I now have an autistic therapist and at least now he is challenging my internal ableism
And I wondered why CBT didn't help me. I am late diagnosed ADHD and I strongly suspect I might be autistic, too. Now I know why therapy wasn't helpful for me, although I often hear that I am very articulate and self aware and that I could be proud for such bravery to be so open. Thing is, I am *always* open and vocal about what is going on inside me.
So many pieces coming together for me now as I am watching this video. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this video!
Yes, the always open and aware...sigh
I find it hard to apologize for something I did not choose. There is no need to apologize for who you are and how you work while in your own video. :)
this is so validating. i’m sick of constantly being pushed to go back to therapy by the people around me when all therapy has done for me is make me more traumatized and ashamed of myself. my family doesn’t want to understand me or “deal” with me, they just want to pawn me off onto a therapist so they don’t have to listen to my struggles anymore, not realizing that therapy will never ever help me.
So sorry that is happening to you. My family doesn't want to deal with me either but they don't believe in therapy, they just shunt me aside. I have found peer support group helps way more than therapy did. Not saying you "should" do it, but mentioning because I don't see people talking much about it. At very least, we can find support online amongst each other.
I have autistic OCD and even well meanging therapists have not been able to help me stop my compulsions which stop me from functioning, I always logically understood my compulsioms not to finish ANY project was a unrealistic compulsion and only felt more damage explainimg my lack of improvement to therapists.
The only therapy I haven’t done yet is exposure therapy for OCD. I just lost years of my MA studies due to perfectionism being unable to “finish researching”.
Exposure therapy for OCD helped me a lot (gave me my life back), but I think I was lucky with the therapist who was very experienced - she let me do it in my own pace. Unfortunately I sometimes relaps (not as bad as it was, but it still interfers with my life) and now she (the therapist) is retired and I have a new therapist, and while it is nice to have someone supportive to talk to I can also see that he doesn't have the same experience and understanding as she had.
Somatic therapy techniques BY FAR have been the most helpful.
As a ND, i naturally have some ND friends and either i see them going through therapys or we even have the same therapist.
Over time i saw so many be broken by false 'repairs'. Childhood traumata being intensified by "let's put it all on the table again - and now: have you tried to not care anymore?". Gaslighted into a NT reality that just doesn't exist for us. Imprissonment in clinics/recreation centers where you got bunched up with all sort of broken people, with no privacy or protection, only able to get out once you admitt that you stopped being different. Druged with substances that doctors have some rough idea how they influence a NT's brain. And on and on again.
I saw people trying to be NT and internally die about it. I saw drug additctions starting. I saw people deny there be the slightest chance of being ND for the programmed fear that this makes them an outcast or not even a human being.
These are the expiriences that are engraved in my reality for its severity, and for sure there are lots of different outcomes. I just want to say to everyone even vaguely guessing to be ND - be carefull. Some might harm you by not knowing better, others will inflict harm deliberately. Go search for those who want and can actually help you.
And whatever you do - don't agree on something just because it is supposedly good for NT's.
Therapists who aren’t trained in autism can be extremely dangerous. I came out of a narcissistic family system, so I needed someone who could handle severe abuse, as well as understand my neurology. The results over forty years have been disastrous. I was seriously destabilized each time and didn’t realize what happened for some time afterward. Sometimes I would develop PTSD. I only learned in my fifties that I was neurodivergent and now understand why therapy didn’t work.
Today, there are many people who try to separate CPTSD from autism, as if they can’t be co-occurring. It is possible to have CPTSD, bipolar, etc overlaid on top of autism, and the autistic community needs to start recognizing this, just as the allistic therapy community needs to learn about autism. My life has been turned upside down over and over again because mental illness among the autistic isn’t well understood.
25:40 THANK YOU! Hearing you validate distrations as a de-stressing method makes me feel seen, loved, comfortable, valid. 🥰💜
I’m stopping around 20:45 to thank Steph for the incredibly validating acknowledgement that we are biologically more vulnerable to trauma, which I know to be true - but which I rarely see acknowledged, even on autism channels. It’s important to me because there are so many people who insist that hypervigilance and persistent fear response are invariably caused by abuse. I am intellectually confident that my early childhood experiences are best described as “nothing too bad happened, but I take things hard.” But faced with people that insist otherwise, I struggle emotionally with this. And one thing I have figured out in therapy is that most of the really damaging messages I’ve internalized come from broader societal expectations, not individuals. Chief among these is the idea that emotions are the keystone to everything - which can be problematic, since I have big emotions. Also that, if I have issues with the “universally recognized” cognitive approach, it could not be because I know my own mind, but rather that I am being intransigent and refusing to heal myself. It’s hard to overstate how much damage these long-held “cognitive distortions” have done to me. It’s rather tough right now, with various people arguing that neudivergence is all repressed trauma.
Yes, I have also been told many times that I am very self-aware! I also had a psychiatrist med-provider who told me that I described things mechanistically, which seemed right and bothered me not at all. A brief stint with an RN med provider who told me that she had patients she “knew” because they shared their inner life, whereas I did not, was another matter: there I did have massive panic attacks, and felt dehumanized and traumatized. I am an AuDHD overshare of the first degree. My language is simply different.
And exposure therapy for social anxiety just makes me laugh. Exposure is how my social anxiety gradually grew debilitating over several decades.
I loved your comment , thank you for sharing
I tried to convince myself that I had been abused just to find any reason. I knew deep down that I wasn't. But I just needed my trauma acknowledged and nobody would
Read the book in 24 hours and loved it... I laughed out loud in places as it resonated so much.. training to be a therapist at the moment so this book was great timing for me...
I hope you succeed
Even when you try to explain to someone that you have ADHD or Autistic because you hope they will be more understanding, but they just don't care. Some make things worse, by acting like something is wrong with us. The best people to be around if you ARE Autistic or ADHD (divergent) are others that are like us.
I understand that not all neurotypical (or people with a note neurotypical brain, I don't ascribe to binaries) will understand & we live in a society that caters by far more to people who are more neurotypical but I don't think saying that we should keep to our own is especially helpful. I have friends & colleagues from all walks of life and there is more to us cognitively and personally than just being neurodivergent or neurotypical. My boss is autistic like me & we're like chalk & cheese indeed she's a very spiteful & vindictive woman. We need to create dialogues between groups not division & recognise the inherent heterogeneity within our community. There's neurotypical people for instance who I have more in common with and vice versa. I understand we've been persecuted & misunderstood as a group but tarnishing all neurotypicals with the same brush is dangerous & doing nothing more than what they have done to us. We are individuals and everyone's individuality needs to be taken into account.
I'm certain I have autistism and adhd after hours, days, months, years of researching and watching everything I can. I went to a therapist the first one immediately diagnosed me with depression because of my struggles with socialization and going places. I'm not depressed in my opinion in any way shape or form. The next one diagnosed me with anxiety. Which I also don't believe I have. I feel like they easily mix up certain "symptoms" easily. And are super quick to diagnose without actually listening to me. I don't have any other options for therapy that's covered by my insurance so I'm kinda stuck. I want help sooooo bad because I always felt like an alien. Like I don't fit in with anyone. I hate trying to socialize with people who have no similar interests and it's impossible to find people irl who are into things I like such as toy/dolls collecting, science and art. And I struggle with literally everything in life. I feel like there's a roadblock to getting anything done in a "normal" productive way and I have played life in hard mode.
Therapists have to diagnose you before they can get paid but it should be a tentative diagnosis, open to being changed. Therapists in the US aren't considered expert enough to diagnose autism. One has to see a specialist for that.
I feel like I'm looking into a mirror, when I read what you wrote. All I've ever wanted to do was leave this planet and go home.
@@janicewinsor4793😊😅😢
I reckon one of the most validating things you can do is to immerse yourself in the autistic community, even if that's only online to begin with. Have you tried joining FB groups where only autistic people (including self diagnosed) are allowed?
@@bedlambelle Specialist. Right. All part of the gaslighting. There are clear criteria for autism, written in plain English that does not take a specialist to comprehend, and if you fit them, you fit them. It's gatekeeping. They do not want to have to admit how wrong they've gotten it all, how they have (for example) failed to diagnose millions of women. So they put up barriers to hold back the flood.
You couldn't even begin to conceive what happened to me when I sought therapy and help. All I can say is it's a miracle I am still alive.
I feel you!😶🙄
Same
I told my therapist I was diagnosed autistic and ADHD, she tried to blame everything on covid and saying my problems were from “isolation during covid”. She also had me do that exercise for anxiety that’s like “hear, feel, see something”, where you focus on something outside yourself, I tried explaining those are anxiety triggers because I have sensory issues, so focusing on bright colors, how my clothes feel or loud noises is like the opposite of what will help. But if you explain that sitting in a dim lit quiet room feels better, then you’re not advancing or you’re letting the “anxiety control” you. I stopped going because it was more harmful than helpful.
Yes, I have found that Mindfulness doesn’t work well for things that are triggers! My therapist took me through an exercise where I would tense on set of muscles, then another, that “be aware of your body” thing that is supposed to show you you’re safe. When we got to my back muscles, I screamed. (I’ve long had debilitating trigger points there.)
Another problem I’ve observed with awareness of my surroundings is that dysphoria colors everything. When I’m seriously depressed, a beautiful day is incredibly sad. It may be that somatic experiencing has techniques for adjusting that, but Mindfulness seems like somatic experiencing lite to me, and noticing my surroundings doesn’t cause me to suddenly realize “hey, I’m safe!” Maybe there’s no tiger behind the door, but that’s not what my hypervigilance is perceiving.
And a lot of Mindfulness meditations seem to focus on intensifying self awareness. Maybe start wide, like looking down on the Earth, but then start zooming until I’m almost looking up my own nose. But I’ve felt trapped in my own dysfunctional mind my whole life, and always wanted out. So the meditations are moving in the wrong direction!
🤯”what do we need to learn BEFORE we go to therapy” to better self advocate
❤ this episode!! And quite enjoyed this podcast where you had a guest.
I tried advocating for myself. I told them exactly what was wrong with me they said they could help me. Only to tell me a few sessions later. we don't do that. I gave up on therapy.
@@janicewinsor4793 Advocating for yourself to someone who doesn't care isn't any different (that I can see) than trying to set boundaries with an abuser. The issue isn't that you didn't express yourself clearly enough, it's that the other party doesn't care about what you express.
I've tried to do both things (self-advocate to a therapist and set boundaries with an abuser) and the results were roughly the same: the therapist and the abuser just kept (and keep) doing what they wanted.
@@TalkingWeirdStuff24 so tell me how have you fared?
@@janicewinsor4793 Oooh jeez, uh, not well? I actually had a similar thing happen with my latest therapist as you did? I went in, telling him my #1 biggest life-ruining problem. He said we could work on it. We tried to work on it for about 1 month (4 sessions) before he started changing the subject every time I brought it up. When I asked why he was changing the subject away from my #1 biggest life-ruining problem, he basically told me it was because we weren't making headway (rather, he thought I wasn't trying hard enough to fix it) and so he wanted to change the subject to something he thought he could make headway on.
@@janicewinsor4793I want to chime in as someone who is having good experiences: The thing about setting boundaries and clearly communicating isn't necessarily going to change people. It's that you stop bothering with people who can't help, you learn what's good for you and are quicker to shut down what isn't good for you so you have more free room to fill with what is good.
One thing I learnt that wasn't very intuitive for me as an autistic person was how much people read you from your emotions and not what you say, and then unfortunately judge those emotions by neurotypical standards. I haven't found following other's path is very helpful, so I started considering what I want to learn, and what it is that would make me confident. I actually find people treating me better despite being unmasked and having gotten so much criticism because of my autistic traits, simply because I am more confident.
I'm currently self-identified, 14 month on a diagnosis waiting list, and I realised that my first therapy in elementary school harmed me so so much in the process. I had a big revellation yesterday that since elementary school, I had internalised around 99% of my meltdowns and my therapist back then taught me how. No wonder I have chronic pain and im constantly nervous... I'm so sad for my past self, all I needed was validation of the things I was experiencing and I've been to at least 6 different psychologists and psychiatrist throughout my childhood, none of them taking me seriously. I currently have a depression and BPD diagnosis and I think these resulted out of not being diagnosed.
Omg thank you!!! I’ve lost count of how many medical professionals have told me to breathe, do yoga & EFT tapping. When my body is severely disregulated it really doesn’t help
Omg… yoga, meditation, deep breathing… these are all things that stress me out SO much and I thought I was just doing it wrong and needed to try harder 😭🤯
Deep breathing made me so aware of my heartrate and breathing that I was getting panic attacks left and right.
Luckily, my therapist said we could move on to different things.
As for meditation, clearing my head and maintaining one focus is IMPOSSIBLE unless it’s my special interest
So….what if you try something like imagination meditation? Just thinking about your special interest and things that you know calm you down in vivid detail. There are a bunch of different meditation techniques and I dunno why they always go to the “empty your mind” one first.
An empty mind with barely a thought STRESSES ME OUT
I was institutionalized as a teen because the therapy was making things bad and then my mother would poke and poke until I would melt down.
As an adult, going on my own volition, it's been immensely helpful.
Thank you for bringing up this topic. As an undiagnosed add-er i've also had my fair share of traumatic therapy experiences. I found some alternative (non talk) therapies very helpful, especially family constallations. They do it also with horses which is very effective, especially with autistic people. Sounds a bit vague but i wish people would give this a try.
Goodness me. Just diagnosed at 40. 6 maybe 7 different sets of therapy and I haven’t been understood or helped or validated by any of it. The last one I said, I do something wrong in therapy, help me figure it out. But no use, she was lovely but really didn’t understand what I was doing or saying.
Thank you Sam x
Yes! I learned that my telling my therapist my history in the beginning is experienced by allistic therapists as me avoiding intimacy and other such nonsense when from an autistic perspective it's about getting necessary details out because I'm trying to gain insight about what's puzzling me. I got the depth... what I needed were ways to make sense of it in a way that would help me move forward and that's totally unrelated to my needs with how to cope as someone who is AuDHD. Wish I'd known I was because I don't think it would be all that hard to tease out the difference between the two.
As refreshing as it is to find a therapist who admits they don't understand and is willing to learn, it amounts to you having to train them. They should have to pay us instead of us paying them.
The getting misunderstood in therapy is very accurate. Add on having an only partially understood and still mostly undiagnosed chronic illness puts an extra layer to things. I've stopped going to therapy before when a therapist just kept pushing and pushing me to take on more.
I've also had "oh you're all better now" because I'd worked through a lot of legitimate trauma but yet I was still struggling with normal day to day functioning and getting dropped from therapy didn't help that at all.
Also, exposure therapy is very much not helpful. I've tried it and it's never helped the situation. Like I can slowly expose myself to a place I find overwhelming but it's not really helping me deal with it better. It's making me hide my intense discomfort and anxiety if anything because i don't like making a scene. Making a scene is likely going to get an adult woman put into a paych ward ajd that is more threatening than the situation currently being dealt with.
Also, being "high functioning" (how they determined that, I have no idea), I apparently mask well enough to look semi-normal. Doesn't mean I function well. In fact, I don't function well at all. I've never been able to work full-time and I don't work at all now (especially with chronic illness on top of things).
There's not much help for adults struggling with autism and adhd in adulthood. And a lot of doctors automatically ignore my autism diagnosis because they have something else in their mind to explain my behavior. So I'm afraid to go to doctors because I get misunderstood a lot.
High functioning just means you have an IQ over 70. I think that can be determined just from this comment.
That terminology is a relic from the time when autism was almost synonymous with severely intellectually disabled children.
Excellent video. I have had rubbish therapy at some points in the past, especially CBT. But I have had two excellent therapists, both person centred. As luck would have it, when my husband died I had some free grief therapy with a therapist who just happened to understand autism, complex trauma and ME/CFS. I am now having a few private sessions with her but I can’t afford to do that for long enough.
Ooh are you willing to share this last ones name?
I need to check that with her when I next see her. Sorry not to respond straightaway .
@@AlexLouiseWest Oh, please do! Because it's a rare bird that understands all three of those.
That was such an insightful conversation! Many thanks from a fellow AUDHDer :)
I was told by the Lead MH commissioner for S.E. England who was my boss at the time that CBT is only offered because it is the cheapest option. Its short term, limited scope, is pretty generalised for all conditions so not much training is needed for staff and it has good short term results because behaviours are either suppressed or redirected, there is no intention to solve the actual problems. He hated it but it was all that coud be afforded given the budgets he had and he was told that that was the main priority for treatment so he had to fund it over everything else.
😳😟 wow
I have heard this too.
Buh-buh-but...I was told that CBT was “the gold standard” of treatment, with a very high success rate!
Someone this explanation seems more plausible, based on what I know of human society...
@@jimwilliams3816 the way it has been explained to me is that CBT addresses specific behaviors but it does not address the root cause. So, for example, if you have panic attacks in public places it can teach you to directly address the symptoms e.g. take deep breath (I'm simplifying greatly) but it does not take away the reasons for the anxiety and, except in very basic cases, symptoms are often replaced by other symptoms. If you suffer from something like complex PTSD a few sessions of being told to take a deep breath and think happy thoughts is not going to cure severe trauma. So, in paper, the person may be 'better' because the specific symptoms addressed may decrease but this is often because they have been deflected and there is also a high relapse rate for the original symptoms. The thing with symptoms of MH issues is that they are an indication of deeper causes and these causes are not addressed by CBT. So someone may have panic attacks as a protective mechanism as their brain is working in a particular way and, if panic attacks are removed the brain may find other, potentially more serious ways, to exhibit its distress.
I think there is a place for CBT alongside other therapies but the issue is that because it's quick and generic and cheap it is given in place of other therapy because then the MH services can say you have been 'cured' in a nice easy tickbox way that shows up well in their stats.
I have known people be given CBT for 6 weeks for everything from eating disorders to CPTSD to attempted suicide to biplor to BPD to severe self-harm. 6 hours of ticklist therapy and some homework is not going to cure these things, they need proper treatment not just to be fobbed off to massage the figures.
Yup this hence why I can't get funding as an NHS employee to do my psychotherapy training
I was diagnosed with psychosis and placed on meds and talk therapy for 30 years. Of course, I never got better because most of the doctors didn't understand autonomic nervous system stress responses, compound trauma, avoidant social anxiety, interpersonal psychological abuse, neurodiversity, emotional sensitivity, etc. it was only after I stopped therapy and began to explore all of the aspects of a person's psychological makeup on my own that the pieces began to fall into place.
I'm not saying that people should leave therapy, only that I never got the therapy I needed, and then being identified as a psychiatric patient was definitely debilitating.
It wasn't only me. I saw this same problem across the board. Maintaining good enough was all that mattered, and one's life ticked away.
Only a short therapy with DBT and interpersonal dynamics seemed to help. I wasn't aware that it was my job to teach the therapists, especially when they usually already knew all the answers. I'm talking about easily over 40 therapists, none of which ever treated me like an expert in my own condition.
I think this says more about the brokenness of the system, than the brokenness of patients. Not everyone made it through in one piece. They basically assigned us a label and wished us luck.
Basically, we need to diagnose ourselves and disregard the hopeless labels assigned, but don't try and tell a therapist that they are wrong. It's much easier and safer to go along to get along, even when nothing gets fixed or addressed.
What do we know? More than they realize! They really needed to teach us how to think about our own problems and issues in constructive terms. Certainly, I'd think thirty years would be enough time to do that, rather than spinning one's wheels in futility, without resolution and without an effective strategy.
Yes, we could write a book, but who'd read it?
I found this discussion immensely helpful. TY.
I'm a self/un-diagnosed autistic person. I asked my primary care dr about getting diagnosed and he basically said it's going to be expensive and difficult to get a diagnosis but I should consider if it's just anxiety (I'm like 99% sure I'm autistic and like 50% sure I'm also ADHD), and go to therapy. The therapist keyed into me being an introvert but not the potential autism. The few sessions I went to just didn't really help. I always hear people tell me that everyone should go to therapy and I always feel guilty and like I'm a failure at it because I really struggled to open up to the therapist. I got the "you're really self aware" comment, and it just felt like he was telling me things I already knew. It wasn't necessarily a negative experience, but it just didn't really help with anything I was feeling (and my primary cares handling of the autism question made me not even comfortable bringing it up with my therapist). This video makes me feel a bit more validated in feeling that way about it. I think most of what I was looking for is understanding why I feel so different from the majority of society, and ive gotten more of that out of autism RUclips than I did in therapy. Learning about autism has put everything about my life into a new perspective and it explains so much. I still struggle with the imposter syndrome and feeling like I'm not high enough support needs to call myself autistic, but I also can see where in my life I did need support (and the things I've never thought of that way that I still really struggle with like taking something to the post office or other things I need to do as an adult that I just can't bring myself to do until I can't possibly put off, and sometimes even then I can't seem to handle it). Anyway, thanks for the free para social therapy session haha
That sounds like a agoraphobia, which I also suffer from.
Struggling to do things that I need to do and may even want to do is such a bizarre and frustrating experience. Have you read anything about PDA profile? There are some good content creators specifically for that on Facebook and RUclips (probably elsewhere as well, those are just the two venues I utilize the most.) there are even a few research papers on it as well, so hey Google search for scholarly papers on the subject can be helpful.
Yes cbt is telling you that you don’t think correctly and you have to stand there and correct 500,000 thoughts a day , which are all “wrong”.
I'm one of those women who was "diganosed" with BPD and ever since I've been questioning it. It never truly "fit" for me and I always thought ... oh.... maybe it's CPTSD... that seemed to fit "better"... but then the MORE I've listened to others both online and in life of women "late in life" (over 40) who are late diganosed or are self diagnosed I am like.. you know what... "high functioning autistic" feels like the "fit". I had to pause at various times in this video as I was crying because I FEEL SEEN for the first time in ages and understanding why therapy hasn't worked for me.
Yep❤❤❤❤
I now think my mom was also neurodivergent, but the number of times she said “don’t let it get to you…”sigh
There will be better versions of that phrase but it's a stalwart of a stand in for surviving the immediate emergency. It's a ragged flotation aid but it might be the best your mom can lay her hands on to throw to you when you fall overboard. Also, given the heritability of autism your mom might probably well be autistic also which means she is getting activated by you getting activated and both of your cognitive functionalities are failing fast. In that moment - she might be finding it impossible to think of a better way of supporting you.
I think both of my parents are undiagnosed autistic and unfortunately the result was that they taught me a bunch of their unhelpful coping skills, like basically just gaslighting yourself and trying to seem like you're fine when you're not.
I am almost 100% certain my father was autistic, and my mother may have been. She certainly was neurotypical, but it’s so hard to judge exactly how. I was always aware that the things she taught me made me somewhat less clueless about why people do what they do than my father, but a lot of her judgement crept in too. A plausible working theory for my gender self hate is that I am a male Aspie like my father, aspiring to be a high masking autistic woman like my mother. While she was actually very good at supporting my need to withdraw and have autonomy, your comment made me realize that having an autistic parent might be less successful if one thing they teach you is how to mask. It’s possible that this is why I still can’t really see masks (being diagnosed at 62 didn’t help either). My modus operandi for most of my life has been the same as hers...try not to let it bother you, then fail repeatedly. It was a bad way for both of us to live, and caught up with both of us late in life.
@@jimwilliams3816 excellent expansion of my comment. I’m female so more naturally copying my mom, but yeah I think my dad had ASD aspects too. (Older and British in the US make it extra confusing, but the more I learn the more I see ASD traits in his behavior.) I’m just beginning to sort out how all this affected and continues to affect me, and I also can waste less energy on anger as I realize even more that they were truly doing the best they knew how to do…
I'm 43, not formally diagnosed with autism although it's strongly suspected, late diagnosed ADHD (31years)
My successful therapists both have now been diagnosed with autism.
CBT never helped me, was in fact very harmful, but at the least encouraged a far more significant overanalysis interior which manifested in traits that became OCD.
Psychotherapists broke me.
I am now 52- diagnosed autistic aged 45.
I have an extreme ( and unusual) phobia that causes anxiety and depression.
Over two decades, four different therapists tried CBT, NLP, psychodynamic psychotherapy and then a "new" CBT variant before declaring me too unstable for the therapy.
This was a year before my ASD diagnosis.
I had been on waiting list for 5 years at that point and asked the therapists if they had known from the start that I may be / am autistic- would they have treated me any differently??
They squirmed a bit and said that they would still have " used the same toolbox" but yes they would have had to apply those tools differently....
In fairness, my first round of therapy was 1992- 94 when autism spectrum conditions were still only recognised in more extreme cases and DEFINITELY didn't effect women/ girls....
But the end result is that my phobia is worse and I think I need therapy because of my therapy. Were I ever to consider it again, I would probably need at least the first 6 sessions to be in a field/ woods/ beach- anywhere that doesn't look like one of their usual consulting rooms.
CBT is so peculiar. Theres definitely a grain of truth to it, but what if your horrible thought is correct? What if your mental problems are caused by people around you abusing you etc. You then change your distressing thoughts and stay longer in the abusive situation. That happened to me. Id never in my life been in a setting that was healthy for me, going from dysfunctional family to dysfunctional adult relationships. So i was in active trauma when i was in therapy, and these CBT therapists just saw me as the target patient and taught me to be a more passive abuse victim. Very strange situation, and im angry because I paid for this mistreatment. Im considering therapy to get over therapy, but scared thats too much for most therapists.
Omg the thing you guys discussed about being called "self aware" and being so overwhelmed with everything feeling like a massive pile of unsortable details made me start to cry a bit because that's exactly how i feel and the reason im in therapy. I just said to my therapist last week that one of my biggest goals is to just make sense of all the random conflicting information. One of the most difficult things for me is that i feel ive lived my life in a state of confusion so often. Like i feel that i never know quite what the fuck is going on, although i am very intelligent. I see everything as a massive pile of details and i cant figure out what the essence is supposed to be without a lot of work and analysis
A trap i can fall into is black and white thinking because its a relief from all the grey areas! In fact i was raised mormon (a cult) which gave me a basis for deciding what everything means. Once i lost that i had a hard time making any sense of the world.
I too am a survivor of that cult
@@janicewinsor4793I'm glad you got out. I've been out five years and my life is so changed.
Thank you for putting this in a much more concise way than I have been able to describe previously :)
I think about how hellfire and brimstone religions leave lasting mental damage, but unless it is some hardcore cult, it doesn't get recognized.
We have "interest-based" nervous systems, so OF COURSE we're sensitive!
If it's so important for us to get it done, then it should be fun!
me trying to apply for jobs
I read this as "internet-based" nervous systems as if you were trying to imply our generation growing up on the internet affected our nervous systems, which like thats facts go off queen but how is that relevant to the video 😭 then I realized I made a mind typo lmfaoaoa
Wow! This was amazing and I really do identify and resonate so much.
I just can’t believe others are also feeling the same things I am.
Thank you to both of you 🥰
Thank you for having and sharing this discussion. I wish this issue had so much more awareness.
I went through 6 mental health professionals before I was finally given the surprising diagnosis at 30 years old. The 4th was the head of the MH division at a large hospital in a large metropolitan. The 5th diagnosed the PTSD caused by the undiagnosed autism. The 6th was a MH specialist at a big hospital who told me that my undiagnosed autistic needs were unreasonable and unrealistic, ignored what I said, and organized with the family member who was destroying my mental health what I should do... while I was in the room. I spent about 1.5 months in the psych ward, with (I now realize) very obvious autistic behaviors, and when I was finally discharged I was given a form that just said that the reason for my hospitalization was 'stress'. Like actually just that one word.
And even after diagnosis, no one touched upon the simple issue that had been harming me the most: getting proper sleep.
Skipping every other trauma I've experienced in the endeavor of seeking help..
If not for the fact that I need diagnoses for additional issues, I'd happily go the rest of my life without having another MH session.
Most critically, I don't ever dare talk at all about the most severe issue I have for fear that a mishandling of the issue could put me into a situation of perpetual and unwitting torture in a misguided attempt to 'help' me. And as the issue involves myself being a potential fatality, you should understand how messed up it is that 'getting help' for this issue could be fatal, or even worse. And as I've been dealing with it for over a decade, you can imagine how much damage it has caused in the interim.
Even as I currently live and breathe, I've realized that it has made me susceptible to some very bad situations, and I have to guard very carefully against them. Others see it as irrational insecurities but I'm just here trying to stay alive. I don't even dare date without having someone on call to physicality pull me out of certain bad situations and get me the help I would need to recover.
Bless you both for this episode. So validating.
I've been judged, corrected blamed, shamed and gaslit by the medical profession. I was told off for stimmingand shamed for it, when I was totally terrified and overwhelmed by the situation I was in. Thankfully I have since read, watched and researched nerodiversity, and saw so much of myself.
I'm crying watching this and I'm so going to get her book.
Ooooh how much I love working with my autistic clients , this breaks my heart. How I wish this was titled 'bad therapy can be harmful.' In saying that I work with my clients to make sure the way I work is right for them and check in to make sure we're focusing on what they want support with.
I think perfectly “good” therapy can also be harmful, though, due to brain differences. For example, CBT is known to be pretty bad for ND brains but well-supported for NT ones. It’s not bad therapy, just the wrong one.
@@Cocoanutty0 Exactly.
The wrong type of therapy can be harmful then, not therapy as a whole. Especially for those who work from a person-centred approach
@@Cocoanutty0 Wrong therapy is bad therapy. Part of their responsibility is to assess what's helping vs harming. When they cannot do this, EVEN WHEN WE CLEARLY TELL THEM, that's malpractice level bad.
My experience so far with therapists is they are poorly trained, unprofessional and unable to see their own prejudice about the diagnosis.
"What are you feeling right now?"
....
"I do not presently feel sick."
Aha! It's such an open ended and deranging question. Even 'now' doesn't really exist (it's already in the past if your brain has noticed it).
How am I feeling about what? This is like the vague test question. Autistic people need precise directions academically.
Yeah. It's like they don't get that these things aren't necessarily constant 100% of the time but they can go up and down depending on the situation. One could be having a great day and then WHAMMO ... something blindsides you and sends you into a tailspin!
This quote alone is so identifiable.
Therapist: "How do you feel?" Me: "cold"
Therapist: "I mean emotions"
Me: "I dont know."
Therapist: "you must know"
Me: "All I felt was being cold but im beginning to feel annoyed now" 🙂
Hi Sam. I have been listening to you for a while but this is the first time I’ve commented, perhaps because at the age of 54 I got diagnosed several weeks ago with autism. A relief more than anything but a lot to work through. You were one of the people who helped the lightbulb go off. I particularly remember you mentioning you used to identify with being hsp and so did I. Just a clue along the way…. I think this episode is so important and validating. It is absolutely my experience with rubbish and often damaging therapy. I have never heard this opinion expressed before and it is so useful. I applaud your guest also. You are providing such an important service. Kudos to you! 🎉
I have tried therapy several time but it always end up me trying to explain myself and how i work so they can understand enough to actually help with my issues. But they never seem to grasp how i process stuff, so we never get anywhwere.
I went to therapy since i was a teenager and all through my 20s. As much as some of my therapists were good people, and some of these therapies did help me, i learned how to predict my therapists very quickly. I knew what they were going to tell me, i would predict this and apply it to what i said to them, how i interpreted verbally my situations and emotions. Not much came of it, and when i did allow myself to let down my mask my therapists woudl either get frustrated with me, invalidate me, or sit in silence feeling obsolete. I often pretended to consider things they suggested despite spending a huge ammount of time considering those things from many diffefent angles, i would do this out of a kind of submission and hopelessness. I would invalidate myself considering these things, searching for some other angle that i hadnt approached, and most of the time i had approached it at the angle they wanted me to but i felt forced to wipe everything clean and take on this incredibly simplified way of thinking that in no way touched my issues.
One of my therapists knew me as someone who hated being asked how i was. I hated it because i couldnt answer it, i struggled with alexythymia, and when i did express how i felt it was considered dramatic. Everything about how i felt was over the top, whether it was my way of communicating, or my naturally intense state where i was constantly overhwhelmed, and the techniques i was taught in therapy only exasperated that. I thknk this is why i was diagnosed with bpd.
One of the big things i have noticed about my being diagnosed as bpd, was that i was actually just a ND teenager with trauma, and trauma that others did not understand. I was told not to take my bullies seriously and was not believed when i told the therapists that the entire school hated me and i was known across multiple schools in my area. For them bullying happened with just one person or group of people towards an individual. Not almost every member of an entire school, and not with regular SA and physical assault mixed in. Bullying for an NT is someone stealing your pencil case, it is not going to school every day and finding bullying completely, and i mean completely, inescapeable. The bullying i faced was so extreme that it has affected me to this day, and it has contributed to my cptsd. During that time i was completely alone with my struggle, no one believed me and i was always blamed for it, i was told not to take it seriously, but how could i not when i couldnt go anywhere without shouts in the street and being seen as free game for quite horrific assaults by people that i did not even know the names of and hadnt even seen before, who certainly seemed to know everything about me. Moving schools 3 times did not help this. I suffer now from agoraphobia, and all therapists ever did was invalidate me. Telling me the bullies were 'silly' did nothing.
Luckily now i have a therapist who is ND, i do not have to explain myself to her the way i did NT therapists, and she has been the most fantastic therapist ive ever had. I never have to put myself in a framework for her, she always listens and never invalidates me. In fact she never offers me any of that terrible advice, and never forces me to go over my traumatic experiences over and over again.
as someone who can relate to the experience you have described (not everything, obvi, as all of our circumstances are our own but a lot spoken here struck a strong chord with me): I don't know if there's a word to describe tremendous happiness coupled with relief, but I am so thrilled you were able to find a therapist who can actually accommodate to your needs and make you feel heard and seen in a world that wants to turn away. I can't begin to imagine the weight you have had to hold on your own and thank you for sparing the time + capacity to share this vulnerable part of you.
Thank you so much for bringing all of this up! I look forward to reading this book. As an Audhd person who started therapy at age 8 in 1973 and didn't get dx'd with Autism til 2021 ADHD in 2024 (!!!) misdiagnosed often and mis-medicated losing years of my life, it's horrific to me that people are trained to be mental health practitioners and they are so ignorant and damaging.