Why Is No One Talking About Nightshift? And Is That Ok?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
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Nightshift is a new game with a theme many wouldn’t expect out of a board game…and this has caused quite a stir. So let’s talk about it.
TimeStamps:
0:00:00 - Introduction
0:01:38 - Why I’m Not Covering It
0:06:32 - Consistency
0:10:51 - Is It Okay To Have Preferences?
0:12:32 - Pushing Boundaries
0:14:21 - Content Creator Coverage
0:16:22 - Wrapping Up
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For media inquiries, please email alex@boardgameco.com
For Gamefound inquiries, please email me at a.radcliffe@gamefound.com 
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If Kingdom Death is fine, I'm not sure why this would be beyond the pale. It seems very weird that strippers - women who intentionally strip - is too much, but a game entirely about sexploitation & bloodgore, is fine and gets covered a lot. Games where you play Jack the Ripper though? There's several, murdering the strippers is fine apparently!
It seems lopsided.
That people are angry about this particular game existing is just wild to me. I get not wanting to play it - I don't particularly and I didn't back it - but the anger to it just seems so weirdly puritanical.
This is a decent argument. I do think the 'unreal' setting of KDM softens the blow of the themes. It is an over the top game that does get coverage, but to be fair, rarely does the extreme stuff get shown in a video. With nightshift, the whole theme is 'extreme' to some people, so it's a bit different. To be clear, I don't have an issue with either game, but I can see why people have a problem with one and not the other, even it's a bit incongruous.
@@jadew1673 So the violence is ok in KDM, The Bloody Inn, Vengence, 6 Seige, This War of Mine, Vampire the Masquerade Chapters etc etc ... I find it strange we as a people are more comfortable with violence than our own bodies. - look at the violence in the video game industry, talk about desensitizing our kids
@@gasa5251 I mean, Western world values have trended towards the Puritanical/Victorian attitudes about our bodies for a good long time now. I absolutely think we should work to change that, but I'm hardly surprised that there's a measure of pearl clutching happening in regards to the game.
Basically, I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.
Thanks Alex, you’re one of the few who gave a thoughtful reply privately and I’m glad that the dialogue is now public.
I understand if a single reviewer has a family friendly channel, but it’s a bit harder to accept when 90%+ of reviewers selectively apply that reasoning to Nightshift.
When so few voices cover the game, the impact of a single reviewer deliberately misinterpreting the rules, skipping most key mechanics and using sensationalist controversy for views is especially disappointing.
Thankfully we have managed to get a couple of channels happy to do a play through so people can see an unbiased representation (releasing soon), however I’m conscious that many people don’t have time to watch that and remain reliant on reviewers.
It’s been unexpectedly challenging to say the least!
I'm honestly glad he did this video if only because it put the game on my radar. I'm still undecided on if I'm going to back it, but I like knowing about it, at least, and I wouldn't have even known about it without this video.
It does feel a bit odd to me that there are games that portray a variety of workers doing jobs that are less than safe and healthy, or games that portray women miniatures with the same level of clothing as your miniature models, or games about raking in the cash, but when it's specifically about stripping it's suddenly too taboo for words. I do have to wonder if my aroace nature has anything to do with me not really buying into the salaciousness everyone else seems to assign to a job that is essentially getting naked while doing gymnastics that would have killed me as a teen, and getting paid for it. Now I am ABSOLUTELY sure there's more to the job than that, of course, but that's sort of what it's known for, and even what it's known for (getting naked or semi-naked, pole dancing) isn't even specifically sexual in nature. We've just decided to portray the entire concept and industry (and sex itself) as so entirely taboo that it has become an inappropriate topic to talk about in all venues.
I agree that its stupid to tolerate violence more then sex in media / games. But its verry evident thats the case for the larger public, so It shouldnt be any surprise.
I’m not surprised, merely disappointed.
Sounds like an American bias. There is a lot less prudish reaction to sex as a topic in continental Europe in my experience.
But I do appreciate you spending the time to think about it and articulate your thoughts.
America is the country where the Christian right is trying to install an authoritarian theocracy where their "Christian values" dictate every other persons lives.
It's so North-American to not wanting to cover a theme around adult-topics (like nudity), while it's more then common for most North-American to indulge themselves with violence and blood-shed. Why all the anxiety for nudity? It's a shame that content creators have decided not to give attention to this game, probably being scared for bad comments. I would love to see more unique and rare themes like this being presented then gore slasher thematic board games of which more then thousands.
Apart from this I think it's good you covered this Alex and I am happy for exotic cancer the campaign is doing well.
It's okay for different cultures to have different preferences in what they want to engage in actually.
I agree it's a North American sensitivity, but I don't think that inherently means it should be ignored.
@@BoardGameCoAs a North American I find it frustrating that certain sensibility frequently overrides my own just because they are louder. I think as its success has shown the “North American sensibility” is not as unanimous as people think
I also think it's not just simple American sensibilities: I believe it's more about people who have kids not wanting them to see the game on a shelf at home. Personally, I'm finding the lack of reviews annoying, especially since the game is not about sex: it's about the business of strip clubs. I do feel Alex (and others) should be reviewing this game and offering their opinions afterwards like normal. Re: Alex's comments about not wanting to sit down and play a game about strippers, how is that different from not wanting to sit down and play a terrible game? Or a WWII game? Or a dry, dusty euro?
@@BoardGameCo You might find interesting that the country with the most backers for nightshift is the US. Are you certain that your sensitivity is an "American sensitivity"? Where'd you get the data to back that up? The KS data tells a different story
Sounds like a very American conversation. Gore, blood and splatter are fine but beware if one nipple is visible 😂
It is the one country that has had mass shootings for decades, but has done nothing to change things.
Meanwhile, Australia had one mass shooting, and there was an huge crackdown on guns.
It's very interesting what's acceptable in certain cultures/societies and not in others.
American conservatism.
reminds me of an older south park episode about sex and violence
@@stevenharris6161 The board game community and makers tend to be very progressive actually. This isn't prudishness so much as not wanting to step on the female objectification landmine. by contrast, dying or being killed tends to be disproportionality represented by male or monster or robot, so no one cares.
@@ScytheNoire Increasing gun restrictions doesn't prevent mass shootings in the US, and a lot of mass shootings are prevented or reduced in severity by citizens carrying guns themselves. What any of this has to do with finding gore and violence acceptable within a fictional game setting, I have no idea...
Haha yeah inconsistant is right. Everyone covered scarface 1920 where you could have brothels and sell "madams" for profit but now the game where you have to play as the stripper is too far? Guess its just cause its the main aspect of the game and not in the peripheral. Okay to play as the exploiter not the exploited? Anyways jist a thought i have no problem woth either game and scarface is alot of fun
Yep, half of these reviewers out there are the problem. They're going to stand behind some fake morals just to get street cred with their viewers
From what I read of the campaign, you're still playing an exploiter in this game. Maybe the controversy is so many men might not want to see themselves reflected in the exploited category.
It's like knowing something is happening and actively ignoring it which helps others profit off of it. Versus seeing what it is. Most folks aren't brave enough to do that or have a tough enough time as is surviving.
not knowing anything about the game until this video, i sorta expected it to include nudity, but (at least after a cursory glance at the KS page) there isn't any. and the artwork isn't any worse than something like Middara. so really, it's just the topic itself that's "taboo." but like Alex mentioned, it does seem like a double standard that some folks take issue with exotic dancing when they don't with way more graphic/vulgar/violent/insensitive topics in board games.
anyway. your channel, your choice to cover the games you want to cover. i appreciate you sharing your self reflection (lol i almost typed "shelf reflection") on the topic. :)
There is a double standard at work here, although I appreciate your explanation as to why you chose not to cover this game. I fail to understand where the Overton Window boundaries exist where a game like John Company is critically acclaimed but a game with adult themes won't be covered by many popular reviewers. Both are based on exploitation and the pursuit of profit. So be it. I'm happy that the designer has found a suitable audience willing to explore this theme, and think it both funny and thematic that the Collector's Edition will arrive with a "discreet box sleeve". Well done, madame!
Incidentally, this is NOT the first game to broach this kind of topic: I backed and received Lap Dance (Artipia Games, 2015), OrgasMe! (Michael Neumann, 2016) and Consentacle (Naomi Clark, 2018). The gameplay was meh, and I have since traded/sold the games except Consentacle (which had some very specific parameters that were part of the designers intent).
I appreciate your sensibilities and opinions, Alex, but on this topic I would politely disagree with you. 🖖
If you added swords to the figures with no other changes to a high fantasy rpg no one woulda batted an eye. Now that they're in a setting where they belong, there's pearl clutching.
How do you figure this? It's not about the art, it's about the theme. A fantasy rpg isn't dealing with sexwork.
Oh, there was plenty of pearl clutching with fantasy themed games. I remember specifically Tiny Epic Dungeons having faux outrage over cleavage on a fantasy character on the cover. It was ridiculous. The BGG forums are toxic, and the moderators there even worse.
@ScytheNoire are you referring to the post going over the unnecessary sexualization of female characters in settings and environments that don't call for it? Lol there was nothing wrong with that post and they made plenty of good points that make it a farcry from "faux outrage".
@@soporific9212 but sexualizing these women are ok?
@@jadew1673 I'm guessing this was figured by not considering stripping sexwork. Believe it or not, plenty of strippers are normal people who just take their clothes off for money. Considering all stripping sexwork would mean people who pose as nude models are also sexworkers, and by going out from there, the artists painting those models are sexworkers. It can continue to spiral out from there. Before too long the family growing flowers to use in pigments to make the paints are part of the sex trade.
There are plenty of games where women are objectified which people don't complain much about, but make a game where a woman is in control of their body, and it's apparently crossed a line.
I do think people are more and more becoming sensitive to games where women are objectified.
@@BoardGameCo definitely they are, which is great, but for the most part that doesn't stop people from reviewing and discussing those games. I respect everyone's decision to review what they want, but there is a distinct double standard in the United States about what is and isn't acceptable. I appreciate the honest and open discussion about why people would or wouldn't choose to cover this game, it just saddens me when we celebrate things like Game of Thrones on TV, and say that this game goes too far.
@@MarkBlasco Lol... game of thrones is thematically celebrated? It should be noted that the only way you can access GoT is by paying for the HBO service. Moreover, I didn't start watching the show for its sexual content. The crazines of me is how a game is considered cringy when we have a whole subgenre of websites known as OnlyFans which, largely, women find empowering.
As I said above, I don't believe that @BoardgameCo needs to celebrate the game or its theme, whether Alex reviewed it or not. The part that confuses me why justification was necessary of a game that wasn't being reviewed more than any other game that is not reviewed. Just, why? BoardgameCo doesn't owe anyone an explanation.
@@donberdeen6518 MarkBlasco, Boardgameco, Yourself, Me, we all have a responsibility not only to ask these questions, but to stand up for people we think are marginalized. If someone, some group is disadvantaged, we should all collectively stand up for that group. That means both for people games are built around, built for AND the people reviewing them. The conversation is the point. :)
@@mglittle37 The game makes those women seen. I got the feeling there are people that don't want those women to be seen. Seen as humans. As people in charge rather than objects.
The main point is: it is made by an ex dancer to fight the Stigma surrounding by a certain humour (that isnt childish but realistic-sarcastic).
It is your choice obviously, but as someone covering board games it is your job to cover them. Like you said, many other games you covered have sensibilities. this is a double standard you should work on. A CW on every such games would be fine enough and doesnt incapacitates the viewer in their choice. The problem is: with not directly talking about it, you arent helping the Stigma and "part" of the problem.
I backed it as i like the look, mechanics and feel obviously, but also cause many of my friends are s*x workers and I almost did it myself. I know the stigma and stories, so it was cool to see this come about. And yeah, it was successful, but videos like those or their absence show how much it is needed.
Kudos for making a video at all, but I hope you rethink it. It is a missed chance.
little info for people that dont know: you play as the dancers, so it is not a client simulation.
little note: i know, you probably didnt mean it like that. but for others: kids are not an argument when plenty of games not for kids have been covered already.
My thoughts exactly. It almost seems like Alex is right on the cusp of getting it but falls short due to his western bias/indoctrination. Though I agree I'm glad he made a video on this at all, it's painful hearing him go on and on about the unfair inconsistencies at play here while simultaneously but most likely unknowingly contributing to said stigma and inconsistencies.
100%.
And for the other comment - it isn’t western bias/indoctrination, it’s just American conservatism at its finest.
@@soporific9212 well said. sometimes not easy to see the shortcomings if you are not aware. thats why hope he still might get it.
@@stevenharris6161 yeah, it is more universal, but to a degree i understand how they meant it. Dunno if say conservatism for him, but definitely the upbringing in that culture and no contact to that kind of worker demographic.
I 100% think you overestimated your audience's bias towards this theme/game. I wouldn't say it's unfair, the moral minority is quite vocal and it's a real concern for content creators. Obviusly if you personally don't want to cover a game then don't, but if your only hesitation is audience reception I'd say trust us on the next one. Or put out a community poll ahead of time! Always happy to participate in one of those.
Taking a cursory look at the KS, I don't think anyone is going to be sexually aroused by playing this game. In my profession, I have spoken to women who have done sex work in a wide range of activities. Their stories seem similar to what this game appears to portray. There seems to be a message behind the game. We play games that tell stories, and this game tells a story, too. Looking at the customer art for the game of nightshift, I was struck thinking, "Ugh... this is who I'd have to entertain??". It makes you think about the women who do this for a job. Games can make us think, and not playing this game made me think.
lol, yup, definitely backing the game now. :)
The point "there are loads of games about murder/violence but adult content and people lose their minds" is the exact reason why people shouldn't be angry about this game. Makes no sense at all. It's the equivalent of when you watch UFC and they bleep out swearing. People's values make no sense.
Games about: colonization, exploitation, war, murder , drug lords 😊
Strippers 😠
I appreciation that I’m not seeing any comments to this video that say “This game shouldn’t exist because of its theme.” Well done, BGC community!
This is fair commentary. Some of it is definitely content creators’s fear of pushback and being cancelled.
I support board games with adult themes if they are indeed good games.
That's absolutely fair.
While I understand people who won't buy this game because they feel it doesn't suit them or feel offended, I believe the people whose job is to cover games should not fall into the same category, they should just put a disclaimer at the start and review it as any other game
I think the game looks fine. I think I personally wouldnt play it because I play with kids or people who would not care for the adult theme but I have absolutely no issues with it being on the market.
I see no issues with reviewers passing on it for the same reasons...just a taste thing. You are a family man, it wouldnt really make sense for you to cover this. That said, I do always get surprised at how many Americans are so easily flustered over sex and totally ok with guns violence and school shooting and so on so forth. It feels like a weird disease from a Canadian point of view. Must be a religious thing. Catholic religion has pretty much always shamed sexuality while partaking casually in violence.
I’m an American citizen and I too find the hypocrisy absurd.
Not every game is for everyone.
I was surprised that you didn't discuss that this being designed by someone from an underrepresented group. Her perspective focused on the game from making money as a business. Board games have exploited women between mechanics (e.g., Letters from White Chapel) to art (e.g., Lords of Hellas) without anyone saying anything. While an adult-oriented theme, it gives the women agency to make money and includes diverse body types in its player pieces and diversity in its patrons.
I'm grateful for smaller RUclips channels for covering games like Night Shift, Gay Sauna, Dick Sits, etc. Games with LGBTQ+ themes get a lot less coverage as they also tend to be risque.
The one mainstream game I did not like was Puerto Rico for its white washing of slavery. Again, not every game is for everyone.
As the industry matures, there will be more divisive games as more diverse folks bring their unique ideas to the table. I'm here for it as it would be incredibly boring to only have Mediterranean trading, fantasy and space games.
It seems to have a lot of heart behind it, and the theme is fresh. That counts for a lot with me. A bit lighter than I'm interested in as a game, but I'm happy to see it doing well. And there is a massive audience out there that aren't following typical game reviewers.
While I don't personally see any issue with the topic, and support reducing stigma around it, I agree people should be able to choose whatever fits their interests and audience. What it highlights for me is the importance of having a diverse landscape of channels and reviewers. If it's true that most people chose not to cover it that is sad to me. The best coverage I've seen has been by women, and I hope some smaller channels have fun with it.
Really looking forward to the next set of random questions!
4300+ backers seem to not care what others think and are quite happy to support the project.
Indeed. It's doing very well to be honest. Good for them.
I follow a number of people on Kickstarter, to see what others back, and it's interesting to see who is backing it. It raised my opinion of certain people who did back it.
@@ScytheNoire why would it raise it? The gameplay looks terrible.
4300 but I bet many are definitely hypocrites that whine and complain about women’s rights and women’s dignity and then they support something like that which objectifies women and sees their bodies as a commodity. That’s fine, just so they are aware that their whining is 100% falling on deaf ears now.
People just want stripper minis.
Still playing Pandemic? I’m sure that’s a bit close to home for some people now.
I looked at this game and was tempted by the KS but in the end decided I didn’t need more games at the moment. There does seem to be a prudishness against adult themes compared to violence. I can understand as a channel wanting to not cover this because of having an audience which is focused on younger people. But let’s be very careful about refusing to cover certain things. I think this video is well done and appreciate that you’re talking about the topic. There is no right answer and all anybody can do is choose what’s right for them, but that choice should always be available.
Excluding this video, you need to add photos to games you are discussing. I’m always doing research to know what you’re talking about
The reward is the amount of videos that Boardgame Co offers on a regular daily basis. It would otherwise be a trade off. Extra time editing a video would mean less content, i.e. less videos per week.
I’ve been keenly watching the conversation around this, as I’m working with a group developing a game that’s not on the same theme but in the same general area. TBH I’m a little jealous of the attention it’s getting but also grateful to its designer for wading in and both taking the brunt of the shocked-shocked-I-tell-you reactions and blazing a path. I’m obviously on the side of the argument where I’d rather see more games from this perspective, about things grownups can discuss, than more games about lopping heads off monsters in sexy chainmail thongs. (The adventurers in the thongs, not the monsters. Maybe also the monsters.)
That said, I’d never get into a huff about a reviewer choosing to or not wanting to review something-you aren’t my employee-though I appreciate it when channels like No Pun Included confront uncomfortable topics head on and thoughtfully, and that makes me loyal to the channel. And if I don’t like a channel’s philosophy, I don’t watch it, it’s simple.
I'm glad to hear that this game was made by an exotic dancer
I have no problem with this game existing and one of my friends is backing it. I would probably play it. But I don’t really have an issue with the theme. I find it so weird that people freak out about nudity and not violence
A pet peeve of mine is when Canadian content creators use American metrics. Canada ≠ America, and even saying North American preferences is way too vague when it comes to sexual themes. Utah and Québec are on two VERY different wavelengths 😅. I'm not dissing on American values btw.
To each their own, including you, Alex. I have no problem with it, personally. But if I did, I can choose not to see it by just turning my head and playing another game...the way I do with all the horror and zombie games. 😆
😄👍
Good on you for reflecting on this and taking time to analyze your feelings and ideas on a complicated topic. As a European living in Canada, I am 1. stoked to find out that you're Canadian 2. amazed at the number of people in the comments acting like being uncomfortable with sex work is solely an American thing.
Thanks for mentioning in the poll podcast. I had skipped over this podcast because I was not interested in Night Shift. However, I did enjoy the conversation. I think it is important to keep asking what is not O.K. and why. The answer is not as important as the need to keep asking the question.
I appreciate this post. It seems fair to discuss content sensitivity. You give a very thoughtful and considerate deliberation of the topic.
I guess the concern is that if you start editing out certain board games (I'm specifically thinking of your To Back or Not To Back Series, not your other content), you stop being a reliable resource for learning about ongoing kickstarter campaigns. So even if you're uncomfortable about the subject matter, if it's large enough to warrant coverage, I would cover it and let people make their own judgments. As noted, this view only applies to To Back or Not to Back. What you choose to review, unbox etc. has no impact upon your credibility.
As an aside, the reality is that most of your audience is fine with this game existing. With most things online, it's usually a vocal fringe minority yelling into the void.
I have no issue with strip clubs, or games themed about it, having said that im not backing the game. In NZ prostitution is legal so that's a whole different level to teasing that stripclubs provide.
Boardgame reviewers exist because of boardgamers who buy and play boardgames.
This is obviously a boardgame that boardgamers are wanting. It’s not some weird campaign with 23 backers.
Elvis was too provocative at one point too. Look where we are now.
(This coming from someone not backing and having no interest in this game)
I do wonder what portion of this audience are mass market vs the typical board game audience
@@BoardGameCo I follow a lot of board gamer RUclipsrs and publishers on Kickstarter, and it's interesting to see who's backed Nightshift. :)
So a game like Scarface 1920 when you play gangsters is okay but a game when you plays stripper is not ? ....
From what I've seen, it isn't really an "adult" game, it's just a game about strippers. I would happily watch a video review about it just like any other. If someone isn't interested, can't they just not watch the review? The block against this game stained me as very bizarre and puritanical, esp since the designer is a former stripper.
Unfortunately some things are things people don't even want to see on a channel
Yes, I get that and you do cover a lot of family friendly and kids' games. Still, I'm hoping your next survey proves the vast majority of your followers are not so petty and would simply skip a Nightshift review the same way they'd skip a review for any game they're not interested in.
If this is the line in the sand then we really need to move the line. Agreed. And in your own way you are giving this game exposure.
Actually as a part of Ontable - Board news (50k subs on YT) i covered it few times in Polish :)
I haven't looked at the game at all so take my opinion as you want.
As an European I don't think I know a single person that would care about this.
If you (or any content creator) don't want to review it because it goes against your beliefs or you want to keep the channel child friendly I get it but someone stating that this game shouldn't exist purely because of its theme is completely asinine and I will automatically assume you live in the USA if you make this comment.
Have you asked Meg what she tought ?
I'm excited for this game. I'm disappointed it's not being covered more, but it's not surprising to me. Truthfully I don't care as a backer because I will hopefully enjoy it regardless of other people's feelings. We can all enjoy our own stuff.
I think questioning one’s consistency across themes is important. I also find the glorification of an “inappropriate” theme, however one may define that, is also a major sticking point. For example, violence in a game may be represented as violence against an evil force, violence as a necessary evil, the sinister enjoyment of partaking in violent acts, etc. Further, a player may even have to take on the role of a violent character however is it teaching a lesson on violence directly or indirectly such as witnessing the damage it causes, simulating its negative effects, or is it simply glorifying it as a good and encouraging its use in real life? In other words, the specific way the theme is represented is a major consideration for at least myself and may explain why some of my board game choices may on the surface appear somewhat inconsistent.
You aren't listening to The Secret Cabal then, if you are not hearing about this.
I find the board game Hobby is filled with the type of people that love to just hear their own voice. Too many people want to be a victim or feel like complaining. It's quite pathetic.
Choosing not to cover a product because the topic is sex, is downright cringy. I've seen every theme imaginable from the grotesque, to the Absurd when it comes to board games. And people draw the line when it comes to sexuality ? straight up embarrassing.
Card against Humanity has become one of the most popular party games in the world. And it thrives off the offensive. 🤷🏽♂️ But stripping =bad.. ?
I should add that you handle this video well. And you're right to bring up the fact that no one is covering a game with 400,000 in crowdfunding
Especially over at BGG. It's extremely toxic over there, especially the moderators.
You're a clown. People can cover what they want. It's the same as people liking what they want.
Bragging that people are paying to get the minis or making a political statement by backing doesn't mean the game "deserves" to be covered or reviewed by anyone.
Lots of bad games get a lot of money. Crowdfunding is dumb like that.
Appreciate the video and you discussing the topic.
Really like your nuanced view on this topic. Still think it's wild that you pretty much consciously decide not to act on this nuanced view and have a differing opinion. Still, cool video!
Thank you for mentioning the game, i really like the idea. and i would like to point out that we live in times, where children have access to the internet and grow up with "adult" videos. i would argue that this game has a more respectful approach to the nightlife scene, as it invites the players to see the perspective of the dancers. talking about creative new conceps is what kickstarter is all about, isnt it?
I don't disagree. There was a time when I wouldn't have even entertained the conversation. It's still not for me, but I'm more open to the idea than I used to be.
A difficult conversation, well covered.
Thank you
Not all things that are morally questionable are equitable.
I agree with that. But that doesn't provide a ranking
@@BoardGameCo you provide your ranking they're your values.
alex, really appreciate you addressing this and your willingness to grapple with these issues and include us in the conversation. For me, the idea of harming guides much of my morality, so games the celebrate violence, exploitation, and the suffering of others are morally reprehensible. I still play them myself because I'm subject to the same bias that most of us are (though i would never play that Prison Architect game you referenced). I wasn't clear from your video if your issue with night shift was that the feel like the theme is exploitative, that it deals with an industry in which women (typically) undress for the gratification of men, or something else. Would you mind clarifying? I suppose i find it troubling that board game reviewers would choose to effectively boycott a game about strippers while not batting an eye about games that glorify violence and sadism. I think it stems from our cultural bias that often celebrates 'heroic' violence in superhero and war movies while viewing women expressing their sexuality as somehow beyond the pale. If it's about women being exploited by the male gaze, I suppose i would like to here from folks who work professionally as strippers to hear if the majority of them feel exploited themselves. Either way, i appreciate you bringing the subject matter up rather than simply avoiding it altogether. Best!
I think everyone is allowed to their opinion and everyone's tolerance is different. What I find mind blowing though is the need to gate keep. Why can't any one enjoy something that you find offensive? Why should it be taboo and hidden? Something everyone should learn at some point is that the world doesn't resolve around you. You are allowed to feel the way you feel, can you stop imposing your view on others. This applies to everything even beyond board game and hobby.
This is no longer a game for me. Back when I was younger I worked for a while as a DJ in strip club. I would have picked up the game back then as I would have had a group that was interested in playing it. Just like I no longer have the old game Passout as I no longer have a group of Young Adults that found that drinking game amusing. Am I offended by the game looking at the Kickstarter? No, if anything I find it being handled properly and accurately by a person that used to be in that line of work. Good on them. I'd play it, if at a con. But it wouldn't get tabled by my gaming group, so not buying it.
I think as a community the board game space is very different than other spaces. Most people that sit down for a board game are playing for the same reasons. One of those main reasons is usually because of the human interaction. I think nightshift doesn't resonate with the community is because it counters that human interaction due to the fact that people that enjoy board games are probably not into going out and partying. Finding a group of people that enjoy board games and enjoy strip dancing seems to clash pretty hard. Its like trying to convince a vegan to eat meat. Or getting a lion to eat veggies. It just doesn't work.
From a wider perspective, everybody SHOULD have and follow their own moral code. It isn't inconsistent to follow your own moral code, but when you're asking yourself if our society has a moral line in the sand that is too far to cross, that is subjecting yourself to some arbitrary collective moral code. Just follow your own code. Nightshift has every right to exist, but that doesn't mean that reviewers ought to feel compelled to cover it if they don't feel like it.
As a reviewer, if you WANT to cover it, but don't cover it because you are fearful of backlash, then that is a moral wuandey that you need to navigate for yourself, based on your own moral values.
I think it's reasonable to choose to not play particular games or categories of game; based on personal preference. That implies there are likely games that a person would thus not be able to review: though they may still have an opinion.
I find it interesting, that of a quoted 30 requests to review _Nightshift_ only 2 did so.
I find it interesting that in the USofA, schoolchildren are drilled in hiding from murderers invading schools, while those same murderous weapons are readily available to all & sundry.
I find it interesting that in the USofA, media include graphic scenes of 'blood & gore', yet gentle 'bedroom' scenes are blurred out.
Are there parallels?
I did ask if you were going to cover this game well before it was released and you said it wasn’t your cup of tea. I was disappointed but seeing how well the campaign is going it wasn’t needed. Being a fan of her humorous books and art I was always going to buy it. Would be interesting to see a poll on people backing if they are existing or new to the scene. Being someone who visits clubs and works as a tradie nothing in this game will be a surprise and looking forward to having a laugh playing.
This game doesnt bother me at all.
It’s your channel. Review whatever you want, but don’t blame the audience. The audience doesn’t need to be handled with kid gloves. They choose whether to click on your videos or not. If it’s a personal reason, cool. Views and engagement with let you know if your audience likes the content or not.
I'm not blaming anyone. But I also won't pretend that my perception of the audience's opinion isn't a factor in my choices.
It"s odd that people dismiss and/or hide something that drives human behavior to such a substantial degree. I'm not quite convinced that it's a wise career, but female seduction and the charm of female beauty are undeniably an aspect of life. How about wearing makeup? If women have a problem with being admired for looks, why wear any? I have a psychological view, I don't care much about the theme or the game, but do you really have to get all riled up about an exotic dancer game? Why not get upset about the nude female Greek statues? Or the fact that people are born naked? Or have sexual impulses? I am not a backer, but I don't see the problem.
I think the point you touched on an important aspect of the conversation. The level of abstraction. We may be ok with board games about violence and colonization because the theme is abstracted. If the game had graphic art of death or had slavery it would not get very far. A game like Nightshift might be more welcomed if it didn't have sexy art and the act was more abstracted.
For me, I don't really get bothered by "colonization" in board games because most games aren't doing colonization perse. If the game had shackles and slave boats, I would be very reluctant to try the game out.
The last thing I thought on the topic was for people to not be afraid to look at your biases and see if they should change, but be ok if you feel like they should not. I have been told that I should be ok will some music that has bad language and values but I just can't.
The moment I saw this game, I want it immediately - but with ancient Japan setting. Geishas double as assassin and informer etc.
People can like what they like and dislike what they don't. That doesn't mean everyone else has to hold the same values. That's ok. It's not for you. With this game and others, it becomes a morality question, and everyone looks at things differently
Agreed completely.
You nailed it. I can’t ever see myself wanting to play a theme like this, but if others enjoy it then awesome.
It all comes back to people being too conservative. In 10-20 years this type of game will be more accepted and people will care less than they do now.
I agree with the first part, very unsure on the second paet
@@BoardGameCo maybe in a America sure, but a lot of the world is becoming more and more progressive. This means being more accepting and understanding of a wider range of topics and themes.
I backed it just to support them. Maybe it’ll help her stay out of that lifestyle herself. Could be fun to play as a party game if it’s super light. There’s always house rules to make it fun or change if we want to. I’m sick of this weak era we’re in double standards galore.
If something isn't for you as a gamer ignore it and move on, very easily done. Not everything needs to be drama or content.
I do think some things make for interesting conversations
@@BoardGameCo Sorry I should have stipulated neither of my statements concerned you or this video/topic, having conversations is how we expand are knowledge and learn different points of view. They were aimed at gamers/backers in general. We know sex sells, look at Films/TV/Books/Adverts or anything in life, as others have said I think living in a religious country you probably see more kick back over there to this sort of thing.
I’ve generally subscribed to the motto that if I can see the insides of a person in violent media or medical work, why would I be offended by the surface level of the body. I don’t mind Night Shift existing but it’s not a theme I am interested in playing either.
The takeaway is that the audience knows what they like, and reviewers shouldnt pick and choose what they should or should not like. Reviewers should review all games (to the limit of their capacity, of course) and let the audience decide if they want to back it or not.
Most people don't care about the themes of games to the extent that they would complain and throw a riot. The loud minority do that, and they get a disproportionate amount of attention.
I do believe reviewers should only cover games they believe themselves to be the target audience for.
@@BoardGameCo Its like saying movie reviewers should only review movies they are the target audience for. Same goes for any industry that produces consumer goods. But leaving that logic aside...of course no one can force a reviewer to review anything. Its up to the reviewer to make the call.
Im a big fan of yours, dont take my tone to make you think otherwise. I just think this game was shot down by the collective BG reviewer community unfairly, probably due to underlying political alignment expectations, and the general audience clearly wants it.
I find that people like to get upset about things for the sake of being upset about something, as if it gives them purpose. I don't care about the game's theme. It doesn't affect me in any way. People need to focus on bigger issues.
Everyone has their thing. I don't like to play most horror themed games, especially with a lot of blood & gore. Just not my bag. I think Nightshift is hilarious. I'd give it try, but I wouldn't own it.
Thanks for covering this. In my culture, stripping is still a taboo. I live in Asia. It's not just an american thing. But based on the comments, seems like that's not the case in Europe. It will be hard for you find a consensus, because all our opinions are subjective to our culture. Everyone has a line: incest? slavery? LGBT (I think there was a game with gay theme)? or even lets say a game about raising family and you get negative points if you raise a gay kid?
It's like someone who watch horror/crime/murder scene wouldnt mind playing games with that theme. Me and my wife dislike horror movie, and we don't play the board game. And the same goes for this. Who is the audience for the game? Probably someone who is accustomed to the idea of stripping either through media, or personal experience.
I myself am curious how many women backed the game.
Good point, definitely not just north America but for sure culture dependant
While I agree with a lot of what you said, the comparison being made is built on a false premise that equal degrees of violence is the same as equal degrees of sex. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything that some people wouldn’t bat an eye at violence while those same people are less comfortable with topics related to sex. One big difference is that sex is generally a private act among humans. Violence, especially as a part of nature happens more regularly and out in the open.
I feel like a lot of the detractors of Nightshift just dismiss it immediately as "smut" without really giving it further thought - which is totally okay, but then attempting to negatively affect the game over that opinion becomes un-okay (i.e., the review bombing, negative posts / comments). It's not "smut" for "smut's" sake, the designer has a larger message with the design, using the game to encourage empathy and fight the stigma against exotic dancers and sex workers in general - which again, that's okay if that's not your thing, but its not just "smut" for shock value... there's a purpose.
Additionally, I do wonder about the point about the rather large success of the campaign despite all the reviewers that are declining to review it - what's that say about relevancy of reviewers in general?
I remember watching Will Wheaton rename the slaves in Five Tribes to helpers because it was objectionable. Assassination he is apparently fine with.
Or a conversation I had with someone upset that MB Ragnarok had a bare breast on a non sexual pose because he wanted to play with his young son. MB:R where gods have mortals and monsters fight in a war and kill each other for the god to gain power.
People lack perspective, consistency, and especially in the board game space seem to like to complain when a game clearly isn’t for them.
You thinks nerds would be stoked to actually find out what happens in a strip joint
I would imagine this isnt a perfect simulation
My only question for not coverd it's more a problem of the subject or more fear backslash of group on the channel. The cover of geisha on game have not problem.
I can see your reluctance to do something that might lose you some subscribers as I doubt you will gain many just because of this coverage …little upside for the risk. However, personally, reviewers that cover it and include context around the designer and what they are looking to achieve with the game, would raise them in my esteem. Board games are for fun but they do have a role in expanding our understanding of the world. Too often that is in violent or horror or such….this game is trying to show perspective of the workers. I am not backing it as I can’t see it being played at my table but I am glad it is doing well on KS. Thanks for the discussion!
That's American society for you. No problem with murder, torture and mutilation, but sex related theme... OH MY G!
I'm truly curious how many content creators declined to cover because of their personal preference vs. fear from backlash.
Better never cover middara on the channel then cuz it shows more skin than this game
I do think Middara is iffy...but I also think that theme matters as much as the literal skin
Ask Professor Meg if she want to give it a try.
I'll let her decide that, doesn't really impact my opinion on it
The theme doesn’t interest me personally, but it isn’t nearly as offensive as Cards Against Humanity or Secret Hitler, which each somehow achieved mass-market appeal.
Your own sensitivity probably... But I do understand you not covering it... The problem is that people that are upset only because this game exists are much louder then the rest of us.
You're Canadian as well?! All the good boardgame RUclipsrs are it seems!
Lol I am indeed
Its the same bias that is directed at real life adult entertainers .... why do we do that? The people that work in the industry are just as human as anyone else.
I wish you had covered the game but totally respect your decision not to. I backed because I find it interesting in just being something different and want to support someone trying something new and pushing boundaries. I think if there were actual nudity the argument would be more valid personally but keeping it tasteful in the no nudity aspect to me tames it down and makes it less extreme than it could have been.
To say "Anyone who would play this game, I would never want to sit down at a table and play with them." is a pretty bold statement, and feels very judgmental. Maybe that isn't exactly what you meant, but dang.
And maybe the better boundary pushing question would be people examining their own biases around this. Why is it ok for kids to see violence all over the place which is just normalizing hate, divide and literally hurting other people, while it isn't ok for kids to see nudity, which when it comes down to it is basically about love, understanding and recognition?
Which to the statement of "This bad thing is fine so this other bad thing should be fine", but as I (someone who was born and grew up in north america) view it, violence is bad, there is almost no way in which violence is a positive for society. While nudity on the other hand, is not. It is only viewed as bad, but when viewed respectfully (which our society isn't great at) it is very hard for it to be a negative for society.
I appreciate you talking about it at all!
Great video and at least some coverage of the game, rather than just pretending it doesn't exist. I hope someone reviews this game, because clearly there is an audience. Having said that, it's not for me, just like WW2, blood and gore, and slavery aren't for me. There are asptof these themes that depress me and I don't want to have to spend time pretending I'm part of that story/world.
Board game bollocks did!
I think the problem is when there's a split between those who agree and those who disagree with a certain theme.
Everyone knows that killing is bad. No one is making a problem out a serial killer game because everyone knows it's wrong. It's the same thing with a battlefield type of game.
The problem with this game (night) is because half the population thinks it's bad while the other side thinks it's okay. That's why it's conflictual. It's a social/political issue. No one is gonna dispute the fact that a serial killer game is bad. Does that make sense?
American hypocrisy all around this game. Here in Europe it's just another board game. The theme comes up because you don't see it a lot which makes it interesting, but it's really no more taboo than any game with for example violence out there. No theme can please everyone so really more variety should be seen as a positive thing in the hobby. A shame to see it 'boycotted' like this.
Personally speaking, I dont have anything agaist the topic. But it dont apeal to me at all eighter.
I like area control games where I control an army to prove my superioty against my friends (or try at least, as Im not verry good on most games). I have zero interest in sex, but i do enjoy some games about menaging resources (in this case strippers) for profit.
Thar said, i think its stupid to tolerate violence more then sex.
Not talking about because Bollocks said it was crap. After watching his review I would tend to agree. So...........
I am intrigued about the game & would check it out at a convention if there were people playing it. I would visit the booth it is was at a convention. I noticed in the video that adult = sex, but murder = murder, that is, “sex” gets euphimized but “murder” doesn’t. I am going to look for what coverage there is & watch it.
A board game is a board game, it should be covered.
But youtubers are people too... so because he is a boardgame reviewer is bound to review all? He is human too so he is in his right to cover it or not depending on his own criteria no?
@@sabamesa1748 Totally Agree, i'm not saying he should. I'm saying the game should be covered.
18+ board game, 18+ coverage content creators should cover maybe...
@@GI-JOEs I think Alex mentioned 2 reviewers are doing it. And yes, I agree it should be covered by of course by someone who is passionate about it. Saying that because I believe all the ones who said no are being judged by saying no.
I guess at least you have the integrity to explain why you are not covering the game. But, the sheer hypocrisy. A society and culture that openly embraces guns and often gratuitous violence on screen. But then reflexively censors swearing and anything 'inappropriately' sexual in order to 'protect the children'.
To be honest, I'm increasingly tempted to support the game and its creator just to make a stand against this type of utter bullshit (not censored very much on purpose).
I don't have an aversion to it, but recognize it would be difficult to find others to play with. It would probably just be me and my fiance and maaaybe my best man and his gf. So if its so limited, why wouldn't I just use my board game budget for something EVERYONE likes? Such as Thunder Road Vendetta! Oh wait... I did 😂
I think this is a culture issue. Sexuality is frowned upon in certain cultures, whereas some other cultures are more open.
America, for example, is okay with violence, murder, guns, war, but anything sexual is "won't somebody thing of the children" while those same children are dying from mass shootings.
Meanwhile, over in many European countries, they have kid's cartoons where the characters are genital or has a lasso penis or UK Sun having topless women on Page 3 for decades.
I think it should be covered, and those who don't like it have the choice not to watch the content. There are plenty of game videos, such as every dungeon crawlers, that I just pass on and don't watch.
Shame on reviewers who didn't cover this game simply because it might offend a few snowflakes.
idk why adult content in board games matter... who the hell cares, its mostly an adult hobby when you really start to dive deep into it anyway.... man the fact that this even a topic is ridiculous
You kinda lost me at the "that's the table I want to sit down at" bit. What do you think the "kind" of people are who are going to be playing this? They're going to be icky? No normal people would play this game? I would hazard to guess that you could encounter icky people playing just about any game.
I feel like we've drawn the line in the wrong place. Why is murder good but boobies are bad? Seems like it should be the other way around.
We might just have a difference of opinion then, if I saw this on the table I just don't think it's a table I would want to sit down at.
Just cover the game if it interests you, spend so much time worried about what others think.... There will come a day where you wonder why you worried so much.