Hey Sam, thanks for this post, after a fair bit of hand wringing I got into a 2015 leaf for 18k that’s a 24 kWh car with usable maybe realistically 20 kWh. I bought it as a ex Japanese import, it displayed 10 bars of battery health @ 30k kms on the clock, usually a new leaf displays 12 bars. The car is for an early electric car a relatively simple beast with no battery thermal management system and had been predominantly fast charged in its early life leading to I believe a more rapid decline than say other more gently charged leafs. Battery charge data is easily accessed via leaf spy a free app via android and an OBD dongle. So at 10 bars my 20 kWh usable energy will still get me an honest 80 kms that’s two days of commuting per charge with charge time via standard household 10 amp power plug home charger of around 4 hours. I only run my battery between 10 and 80 percent to attempt to maintain longevity. Removing and servicing the battery is relatively simple as no thermal management system and modules are easily interchangeable to ditch dodgy cells. I can buy a new pack for 10 k or repair my existing for shit loads cheaper or sell my complete old battery pack for around 3 k for house hold storage system. I’ve owned a few cars in my time but this electric thing kicks serious arse, quick,quiet,efficient, cheap, and reliable. The leaf is our first car our second one a diesel 4x4 comes out to tow the boat or do the big kms
In 2017, my wife's off grid property needed new batteries. The lead acid batteries provided +/- 4kWhrs of usable storage for around 6 years at a cost of approximately $2000 US, and would have cost her +/- 3000 US to replace with the same type of lead acid batteries. We replaced them with 4 used Tesla packs from the Daimler smart 4 two vehicles. These used Tesla batteries now provide +/- 10kWhrs of usable storage for approximate $4000 US. I just helped a neighbor install 10kWhrs of brand new lithium iron phosphate batteries for approximately $3000 US. The prices of lithium batteries continue to drop at an incredible rate.
My bro’ has got a Renault Zoe 2013, had it about a year and bought the lease contract, It needed a little bit of work and the garage balanced the battery at 92%.( appox £8000 in total for car and battery) and charging costs are peanuts, or free. 😎
I still can’t buy a 2013 Leaf with a munted battery for under $13K AUD. By the time the car is sold insured and refurbished it’s about $23k to me. Then I would have a 8 year old Leaf ZE0 with a new battery and the same design faults from new. Plus it’s Leaf and Nissan Motors Australia are not fans of the Leaf. Hard pass. There is no upside here. Edit: caveat is if you buy a new EV now or in a few years.
Hi Sam, I went EV in 2019. My biggest fear was being left with a car with a dud traction battery pack. Since 2019 we know so much more about the service life of these packs, and with the exception of the Nissan Leaf (because of the lack of thermal management), the pack should be just fine for the life of the vehicle unless you are unlucky - stuff breaks!
The Leaf does have the compensation of being relatively easy to sort though. A battery refurb is readily possible and viable, usually for much less cost that a total replacement. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere, but here in the UK, we have companies already offering battery refurbishments.
Excellent presentation This information is very relevant for us in the third world. I believe here we shall be using our cars for back up at home during peak hours ( at night ) when outages usually occur. And after a battery change the old one goes into out home solar system.
@@Alarix246 So?? That is good news. The battery can be swapped with better battery tech in it, meaning it would extend the range of the older vehicle too
The question is, will the batteries you can get in 2030 fit in your decade old car and will they be electronically compatible. Maybe they will standardize sometime in the future, but many EVs have bespoke battery packs that only fit that model.
@@macrumpton These batteries are all made up of a lot of cells or modules. You can easily make a different shape with them, atleast the way they are now.
The myth about EV needing new batteries every few years was “Top Gear” Clarksonism that was jumped upon by those not wanting to lose their suck squeeze bang and blow toys, strengthened by everyone’s experience of mobile phone batteries. Only recently did phone manufacturers latch on to the idea of halting charging at 80% until the phone was needed for use. This habit was founded by car battery management knowledge especially at Tesla. Top Gear did a lot of damage to the uptake of early EV adoption, but could not resist the tide of demand that has come out of 10 years of practical experiences debunking all those myths.
I think that you raise a valid point. My phone has a "bedtime mode" and it allows the phone to take all night to my morning alarm to 100%. One+ from Shenzen.
Nonsense, they were actually right! Battery degradation doesn’t just reduce your range but depending on how you use your car, with constant supercharging for example it slowly kills the battery, you can still easily drive a 20 years old ice with its original engine and gearbox, in fact even 30years old ice.
@@alanmay7929 both right then. I'm still running a 2006 VW Golf 1.9TDI DSG gearbox with 228k on it. The gearbox oil changes are eye-wateringly expensive £300 at a dealer. But my son bought the special tool and for a good bottle of whisky it's only about £100 for the oil and filter. The "Mechatronic" brain on the gearbox failed though and was £1000 from a scrap yard.
You pointed out pretty clearly that replacing the battery pack going forward will largely become a non issue (beyond upgrades). My question is, with battery packs becoming more and more part of the structure of the car, will this affect replacement?
I'm only guessing...it's maybe an issue but they only done it after the batteries got good enough to last the same time as the car (it seems). They probably wanted to make the battery a part of the car years ago but knew the batteries weren't good enough for it.
Battery being structural, does not mean it can not be replaced. The pack is often bolted to the frame at locations that add to the rigidity while somewhat shielded from impact but still can be removed. The main difference in some designs vs others is that batteries inside the backs may all be glued tightly together so replacing individual batteries would be difficult (I think this is how Tesla plan to put 4680 in the pack for Cybertruck but other configurations like GM Pack setup allows to replace sub units separately. I am not personally involved in any of these processes but that is my understanding.
@@Justwantahover wrong, the battery pack/ cells needs to be reused after the life of the car or after an accident or water damage for example, modular batteries are the way to remain/go.
Ah, Finland, average car life today is about 21 years.. Finland is member of European Union. So, there are countries where car is expected to last quite long, even in western world. FYI
@@timothykeith1367 I believe we have our reasons to like certain car brands more than others. Dinitrol has good stuff against rust, and we have quite a long distances. We use also engine heaters to prolong engine life winter time. Every cold start is said to equal 500km drive. I still believe in electric cars also here.
My kids not old enough to drive yet. Guess what their 1st cars will be? Yep the cheaper, reliable ICE. Case in point my 2006 Ford Focus Zx4 ST still alive and kicking with no issues. In fact I traded it in for a brand new Ranger 4x4 Sport and got way more for it than it should have, which allowed the Ranger to fit my budget very comfortably.
Tesla battery pack is still cheap considering it can last much more than8 years. The Etron is about 3 times the cost. Around 50kcdn estimate based on the US dealer price of 36500us in Calif.
Thanks for making informative interesting videos! I do have a request- i listen to these while commuting to work in an ice vehicle, and have to turn the volume to max and still struggle to hear. Is it possible for you to turn your mic up? Ice problems haha
Forgive me if this question has already been asked... If you buy an EV used, say 4yrs old. Is the warranty for battery life/ 70% transferable to 2nd owner etc? Thanks.
I always considered these warranties only worth anything against serious internal failure. Lifetime degenerative capacity loss is almost never going to go as low as 70% of original capacity. Especially with active battery thermal management, so the warranty will not be about regular degradation, ever. It is about internal catastrophic failure.
Exactly my thought. I drive a Zoe, and the only cases I heard about with replaced (or rather refurbished/repaired) battery packs have been cars that suddenly refused to charge, giving errors, etc.
It depends on how you use your car, supercharging constantly and driving in very cold erea could eventually deteriorate quickly, let's not forget low discharging
In some cases only a few dead cells need to be replaced, then if the pack is rebalanced it will come up again. There's a good video on Rich Rebuilds channel about that.
There's also a RUclips video posted by someone called James and Kate. They had a battery refurb carried out on their 10 year old Leaf at an independent EV specialist in the UK, and it cost them £600.....
Nothing if the battery is subscribed and swapped to another. No worries, extra cost or battery degradation headaches for customer or consumer. This would change the whole idea for EVs. I do not understand why consumers must pay the cost of used car damaged battery. The second option is that car manufacturers will offer at least 20 years warranty/performance guarantee for the ev-battery. After that there will be resale value for used EV-cars.
In case you are a hifi nut: Buy some 5" full range (single) drivers. Try and get the ones with the solid metal phase plug in the center. And preferably without a whizzer cone. You can cut them off with a hobby knife. Tang Band, Fostex and Coral are good middle priced FR driver brands. Make a stubby floor stand speaker box. Say 250mm X 270mm x700mm. Make a single speaker hole near the top so the driver fits in. And put some old rags or wadding inside the box (loosely). Now this is where thing get different. Make a 50 mm deep bass vent tube to fit the driver hole (yes the driver hole is also a bass vent). And mount the driver above the driver hole. A 10 mm gap on the top speaker screws and like 15 mm gap on the bottom speaker screws. Use longer screws and thin flexy hose as spacers (cut a bit longer than the gap). The soft garden hose easily squashes to the desired length. And you have to tweak the both gaps a little bit to get the best (overall) sound. The smaller the gap the more it shouts and the larger the gap the more bass and treble. So you can get it sounding great! The sound from the rear of the cone escapes from the gap giving a more spacial sound. Also the bass vent makes pure point source sound (more ghostly). You can add a crossover filter thing as well after getting it to sound best first. And use electrolytic capacitors on FR single drivers cos it makes them sound silky, ceramic capacitors make FR drivers sound more brittle. And you can add a woofer on the bottom panel facing the floor, with higher stubs on the bottom high enough to let the bass out. You need an 8 mh inductor for the woofer and maybe a resistor to tame the woofer. I hate the bass drowning out the nice high stuff. And speaking of high stuff, the open cone mounting EXTENDS the treble! And if you want more super high treble, use a 2 ohm resistor and a 270 ohm in parallel, connected to the + terminal of the driver. How it extends the top is a mystery but that is what I clearly can hear, I discovered it accidentally. I wanted to get just a tiny bit less resistance and I couldn't believe my ears! Or (even better) also use a 0.22 mh inductor and 1 mf (electolytic) speaker capacitor, all in parallel with the two resistors. Do all that and they will smoke any speaker regardless of price (for normal listening levels). They sound better than normal speakers cos they sound like panel speakers and better than panel speakers cos they are light years cheaper and haven't got 6 ft mouths. Want the best amp? Get the Audiolab 6000 Play. Costs 1,800 and Andrew Robinson (oh YoTube) said that the only amp he had that beat it, was a 10 grand tube amp. So I just got one and it's lovely. Cheers Big Ears!
Hi Sam! My 2015 VW e-Up! 18.7kw has the 8 years warranty too and probably the other VW EV’s I believe. I actually have GOM 135 Km range from the initial 160 Km, so the 30% range loss every 10 years for LNCM batteries 🔋 is quite spot on for me. My e-Up! has no battery pack thermal management. I hope 🤞🏻 VW will make an battery pack upgrade for 1st Gen. e-Up’s to replace it with the Gen 2 pack with doubled capacity in the same form factor. I adore this agile urban small car with 210nm torque, with the bigger pack it would be perfect 👍🏻
i have a vw e-up that i bought last year and it has the 8 year 70% warranty. it has the bigger battery and its a great car. very efficient too. i can regularly drive it with 10kWh/100km which is half of what some other evs need. and its very quick.
@@peterkonrad4364 This channel loves BYD but after watching a BYD Tang video where the temperature was between 5 and 10 degrees Celsius it was averaging over 30 kwh per 100km very bad range! Makes your VW look impressive!
@@gregb1599 yeah when it is cold, it is getting worse, but thats normal. may also have been a four wheel drive suv type vehicle they naturally consume more.
@@peterkonrad4364 3x worse? A compact ICE hatchback may get 40mpg while a small Japanese AWD SUV may get 30mpg, the same with your compact VW should be maybe 18 vs your 10 but no way 3x
Audi, BMW, Mini also has 8 year/160t.km. warrenty.In Europe, think they all have it. I drive > 50.000 km/year so that is just around 3 years warrenty. Not likely that its stop working but it is expensive if it happens.
Can you advise if the electricity you are using to charge your ev car and the factory making the ev car is solar powered? Also thank you for your explanation, it was clear and factual. Have a great day.
I still see this as a potential issue with used electric cars in the future. If someone keep a car 10 years, it would basically be considered totaled due to the price of a new battery. I think there will end up being a lot of battery extended warranty, battery replacement programs and cheaper refurbished battery shops around to supplement this!
Let's say the capacity of a 100 KW battery is at 80%, so it will hold only 80 KW charge at maximum. Let's say I get the battery down to 0% charge and then plug it in for recharging at home. Does this mean that my home will be sending a total of 100 KW to the battery during it's recharge cycle but the battery will max out at only 80 KW? I ask because over the decades, I have had laptop batteries which used to hold 3 hours of charge on demanding applications which then hold only 5-10 minutes of charge after a few years. I notice that these bad batteries will show "100% charged" after a few hours of idle charging and even become HOT during the time it is charging to full (so obviously, the HEAT GENERATED by that bad battery during it's recharge cycle is telling me that electric current is continuing to flow through that bad battery, thereby WASTING ENERGY in the form of HEAT GENERATION). NOBODY has EVER covered this particular question in ANY RUclips video. All they mention is that the battery will "degrade" over the years and hold less charge than brand new, but NEVER any mention if electricity is WASTED by trying to charge a battery that can reach only 80% of it's original capacity.
do not underestimate with the useful life. LFP batteries have a much longer life cycle about 2-3 time longer. this is very beneficial to the residual value. When an MNC bettery is end of life, the LFP battery still has half to go and have a higher value on the 2nd hand market.
I bought a silver model 3 LR over 3 years ago. It still charges to 303 miles. You have to take in account efficiency upgrades as well. I haven’t been back to the tezla dealership since I bought it.
The key for consumer battery benefits will be standardization of the battery packs/controllers/cases. Right now the industry is still in the frothy experimental phase to see what actually works along with rapid invention improvements. But we will need common features like the (mandated) USB-C ports on phones and AAA,AA,C,D consumer electronic device batteries. Look at the craziness of laptop battery modules (sure they often use the same Panasonic cells that were used in the early Teslas) but they were and are all unique by brand and model. Standardize battery features and the remanufacturing side of the business fixes all the long term vehicle battery replacement concerns.
BMS and liquid cooling is critical. Our Tesla cars from 2013 after 300.000 km have only lost a little more than 1% per year. Only thing is charging speed that is software controlled has been nerfed.
Or it is possible that the software update unlocked some of the battery buffer to hide more battery degradation, many EV have a 5-10kwh of unuseable capacity so it is quite easy for Tesla to release some of that buffer though an update just like they did by limiting the charging speeds
You know what's funny? Batteries degrade faster in extreme weather conditions. What means that developing nations might never fully rely on the waranty, as their machines are used in very high temperatures. They have barely any money to invest into the E grid. Now they face my mentioned problem. Grim outlook, right?
To be fair - the 8 years is darn good - but the miliage seems somewhat low. I would think that getting 10, or 12 years would be a ok trade off . I mean, 8 years is not bad - probably better then ICE cars. But that replacement cost is still quite high. If you take 10 years of ICE car maintains, and then say compare against a battery replacement after 10 years - I think the numbers should not be too bad. Good for you to address this elephant in the room. (some might try to sweep this issue under the carpet so to speak). Without question the battery pack replacement issue is a "big" deal, and a worry for EV owners. I would also suggest that a battery pack replacement in 8 or 10 years should be MUCH less - perhaps even half the cost. And in that case, then the EV car will win hands down. So, we just at the start of the battery pack drop in price. As it stands right now - this is still a "worry" issue, but over time it should become less of a worry. The same worry exists in Canada, since with cold winters, then those LFP battery packs may well suffer more degradation then in more mild climates. On the other hand, Norway has quite cold winters, and thus some good data will and is coming out on this issue. I mean, just like when you buy a used ICE car, you often get the mechanic to check/test the compression of the motor. If the car shows worse compression, then the value of that car is simply reduced. Same goes for a EV - that battery pack condition is going to quite much decide the value of that EV car at that point in time. Right now, the battery replacement cost is in fact quite high. You of course have to consider the maintains free operation during that time frame. This is still a big concern - but over time this issue will reduce. In 8 years from now, those battery packs should be MUCH less cost.
I drive a 30 year old car...works great and with proper maintenance will still be running strong after yall spend another 150,000 on your battery operated stompers
It seems that way. Although Tesla packs do seem to be lasting well. Witness the RUclips video posted by one Model S owner. His car had covered 400'000 kms on it's original battery....
How easy is it to access the batteries and replace or swap them out of various cars. Is access restricted to the manufacturer. Who can do the swap out ot the battery. Do and manufacturers restrict access to the battery area and prevent replacement or swapping of the battery modules.
Battery prices will only come down if there is competition... new technology will keep prices at a constant minimum (whatever that price minimum may be) just like computers... due to the sophistication of technology it will only be major companies producing high tech quality batteries, why "Battery Technology" is being chosen in the first place, as compared, for example, to hydrogen power (superior imo) i.e. 'Battery Tech' was 'chosen' to be the next "Fuel Source" because it will be easier to control the population (just cut off electricity for a week...) i.e. to maintain "Control of Distribution of..." in this case the manufacture of high quality battery production... Oh and nobody thinks the cost of electricity won't continue to rise?... Lol... Same deal... This principle applies even more to electricity... (i.e. "Control of the Distribution of...")
Unfortunately, "calendar aging" is a thing with lithium chemistries, so could fade to 70% sitting in a barn even if not driven. This may not be that relevant in the real world "for purpose" usage. I have not experienced this on my NCA recumbent etrike packs over the last 3 years, subjectively, but I rarely use the full charge cycle, and the packs are in parallel so easy usage.
4416 of the 2170 cells costs around $25-$28k, NOT $12k. Of course, that doesn't include service center costs, since the systems have to be flashed by a TESLA SERVICE TECH ONLY at a Tesla service e center for everything to work. And there's no guarantee Tesla will consider your battery failure a WARRANTY ITEM. The real car makers actually follow the rules, so they're more likely to honor the warranty.
Yeah I remember a case where a brand new Tesla Model 3 owner ran over something on the road and it damaged part of the battery, Tesla said the battery needs replacing at $16k and not under warranty due to road debris. A RUclipsr called Rich Rebuilds managed to fix it for $700. Just search about that and can find it, but it is a lot more expensive than $12k on a Tesla for battery replacement! And another one was a Tesla Model S that was $22k for a replacement and that one was repaired independently for $7k
@@billcichoke2534 I stand by it. The gentleman above says something, we are not aware of the complete context. Tesla has sold something like few million EV cars to date. I have no idea about how many cars have problem but let's say 2-3 % cars have problems or rather batteries, so it would be few thousand people who would have done battery replacements one way or the other. If it would have been a serious issue then you wouldn't get one off people but there would be hundreds of people who would be flooding and calling out Tesla. I haven't seen that on SM and I use it a lot. .
What would you need in Australia to use a second-hand ev battery in a solar panel off-grid system, without owning an ev? Judging from the information here it seems like that would be a cheaper and better system than the Tesla Powerwall as an ev battery would store a lot more electricity.
People wrongly think that because their cell phone battery only lasts several years, that EV's will be the same. The phone business model has been that is a disposable item that they want you to upgrade to the latest every few years so didn't try and make them last.
What happen if electric cars get accidents how much damage can it effect the batteries? Can it still running or do we have to replace the whole batteries and how much it cost?
Do extended standby time have negative affects on these batteries? If a car sits for weeks, is used lightly, then parked for few more weeks; will that battery last many many years or does the standby times degrade the battery just b/c of entropy? Thanks.
I watch some Ukrainian garage channel that specializes in second hand imported EVs. They bring a lot of 3-5 year old cars on which they balance the batteries for very reasonable prices. Most of the time, if your battery degrades, it's a number of individual cells that degrade, and are significantly cheaper to replace. The electronics are not too difficult to understand and the tooling is common because it's generally the same as fixing consumer electronics. Here is an example of them building a LFP battery pack for a used Nissan Leaf. ruclips.net/video/oKHO6lNNXkY/видео.html
There is a company in the UK - Cleveleys Electric Vehicles - who offer EV battery refurbishing. They posted a video on RUclips a while ago of a battery refurb they did on a 10 year old Leaf. The work took 4 hours, and cost the owner £600.... As you point ot, significantly cheaper than a full replacement pack.
Only draw back gas cars can last 15 /20 years..By time the 8 years comes up the cost is going to by pass $12,.000 if the car is in good shape but battery needs replacement most won't be able to replace the battery..
30% of 300 miles which is probably really 290 leave only a 203 mile range after 8 years... not so great... why I think they need to make a car with at least 800 MILE range... that doesn't even take into consideration, heavy loads, extra passengers and cold/heat degradation...
But then the new asking price would reflect the fact the car had an 800 mile range. Not everyone wants or needs an 800 mile range. Here in the UK, the average *weekly* commute is around 140 miles, with the average UK motorway/freeway journey being 70 to 80 miles. If the charging infrastructure is large enough, and offers quick enough charging speeds, then massive range may not be such a big consideration....
I agree 8 year warranty beats any ice car, however if after th hat 8 years tiu have to replace that battery, it's difficult spend 12gees on an ice car, even if your motor and tranny went out together. I tend to keep car 10+ years. Current, my ice cars range from 20 to 34 years old. No, I'm not shitten you. However, keeping it real, the arguments you give for dealing with battery life to extend car life are good. Thank you!
Except for ICE cars like Mitsubishi where they have a 10 year drive train warranty and even their car warranty can be increased to 10 years with an additional cost. Kia is some countries gets a 7 year full warranty And remember Tesla has a very short 4 year 80,000km warranty on the rest of the car
@@Brian-om2hh My EV battery is still going strong at 7 years and apparently it's supposed to be the worst battery, but just like any car ICE or EV some come out of the production line with a undetected fault which is why some cars offer a very long warranty. But nothing lasts forever including batteries, which I guess is the reason Tesla dropped the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the Model S and X and replaced it with a 8 year 160,000 km warranty as too many high mileage Tesla's batteries were failing during that 8 years...
Truth is the only BEV's that really needed batteries replaced in a somewhat large number was the Nissan Leaf. They were one of the first BEV's. They didn't have a good battery management system and so a lot of their batteries degraded as much as 20% in just a year or two. Just like the VAST MAJORITY of people never worry about "how much it will cost to change the engine in my car"... NO ONE needs to worry about ever changing the battery on a Modern vehicle. The car itself will be a pile of junk before the battery gives out.
30 % of unwrarantied capacity on general ranger of 300 km range on a motorway means passing to 200 km range .. not acceptable ... but it is not to worst ... after 8 years will fresh pack available ? in my opinion no !
With technology improvements will a 15 year old car seem well behind the times. With technology improvements and rate of change is trying to see ten years into the future at best a educated guess.
So in say 8 years my battery might be down to 70%. But in 8 years the charging infrastructure will be what? Twice as big, three or four? Whatever it is it’s gonna be a vast improvement and there will be chargers all over the place so long journeys needing multiple charges will be at most an inconvenience rather than a deal breaker. I wonder if actually once the infrastructure improves battery sizes might get smaller and our worn 70% capacity batteries might actually be larger than the new cars being sold? No idea, but for sure I’ve zero worries about degradation as I’m sure the ever improving infrastructure will more than compensate.
I have no idea how it is anywhere else, but here in the UK we presently have around 26'000 public charging connections. A big contract has very recently been signed to increase this number to 190'000 public connections in the UK by 2030, which is when the ban on the sale of new ICE cars and vans arrives.
I have a 1998 Dodge Durango that I bought in 2000 (24 years old) that still gets 16 MPG highway and has 104,000 miles (167,000K) so no appreciable loss of performance. Considering that the EV battery (where the electricity is stored) is more akin to the fuel tank and not the engine, over the intervening 24 years since my Durango was new, a loss in capacity is more like the fuel tank going from 22 gallons to 15.4 gallon capacity. Since my fuel tank still holds 22 gallons, I have had ZERO loss in capacity and negligible performance over 24 years
The manufacturers should be designing cars where the battery can easily be replaced or upgraded when better batteries come out. That's not how they will do it though. They want you to go out and buy a whole new car. I have some late breaking news for you. There are a lot of people who can't afford, or who are unwilling to go out and spend $40,000 at a minimum for a new vehicle, or most likely way more than that. I have a 2015 Nissan LEAF with a 24kwh pack. I should be able to upgrade at an affordable price. I'm not going to go out and buy a whole new vehicle when all I need is a new battery. There should be laws requiring easy battery replacement. Furthermore, they are loading these new vehicles up with lots of extra technology, like self driving that isn't needed or wanted. They are doing it to drive up the prices. That isn't what's needed to address global warming. You need to make a slimmed down reliable affordable vehicle. Doing what's right runs counter to capitalism. Bottom line, none of what's going on right now is going to fix anything. Things will only get worse from here on out. Huge EV trucks and luxury cars isn't going to solve the problem. Furthermore, I don't like the vendor lock in. Tesla is just like Apple. Have someone else service your vehicle and they disable your charging.
Not sure about that $12k tesla battery Sam. Is that US$'s? Is that including instalation? I believe it's a more than that.Can someone please enlighten accuratly. In any case you don't need to worry about an expensive Auto tranny either and chemical plant fitted to ICE cars these days and so many other parts.
@@nicewknd Repairing is far from being a new pack. If you have an oldish battery, what's the point of replacing some dead cells to keep the car, when other cells will more than likely soon follow? What's the official price for a new M3 60kwh battery fitted?
@@nicewknd No issue get a tissue. Just wondering what that price is? Some have said its US$20k+ and Sam has said it's $12k. It's just educating yourself and it is a common question.
@@nicewknd And Sam here just telling us BYD increasing battery prices by 20%. To much speculation and misinformation around. Blind hype getting in the way of the truth. I'm a BEV fan that wants the truth, warts and all.
But just watch the cost of gas and diesel rocket in the next 5 years. Gas/petrol here in the UK now costs £1.45 per litre, with diesel at £1.50 per litre.... ICE cars will also doubtless have to contend with the introduction of emissions charging schemes in towns and cities. We in the UK are already seeing these appearing now....
With the current fuel and energy prices in my country, i would save about 16,000€ after 160,000km if i replace my current gasoline car for a BEV. Thats only for the fuel. If i add the savings in repairs, maintenance and tax, the number is above 20,000€.
The batteries only last about 8 years!!! So to GET that 1 million miles, you’d have to drive 125,000 miles a year, which you won’t. You’ll probably do 50,000 or MUCH less like the people who do automobile leasing figured out.
Great video. I do however think comparing BEV battery pack with ICE engine is misleading. Electric motor in BEV has the same functions engine has in ICE. Battery pack is BEV’s gas tank equivalent. The original gas tank in my ICE is 18 years old and I doubt it will ever need to be replaced. It’s capacity is exactly the same as the day it was produced and never leaked like batteries do. Our second car’s gas tank has 600 mile range. Don’t get me wrong, my next car will be electric for many reasons but this is not one of them.
The capacity of you gas tank might be exactly the same as the day you bought the car, but the cost of filling it isn't...... Plus there is no way your 18 year old car will be anything like as efficient as it was when new. It probably uses more fuel and oil now. An EV will retain a much higher percentage of it's efficiency throughout it's life if looked after. Also, you have the opportunity to generate your own "fuel" - or at least some of it - for an EV if you have solar, or are able to install it...
@@Brian-om2hh Great point about producing your own power. And having a gas station in your house is nice too but over all I still believe gas tank wins. Keep in mind I am arguing only gas tank vs battery pack not BEV vs ICE. Although my 18 year old truck is definitely less efficient than new, it's gas tank is much more efficient than a Rivian battery pack. R1T at 5% charge is carrying 2000 Ib extra dead weight. My truck is much lighter when tank is full and gets only more efficient as weight goes down. That is true for the life of the vehicle. Power density of gas and fill time still makes my gas tank beat BEV battery pack every time especially when towing long distance. And after 35 years of driving I have never paid to replace a gas tank. A Tesla owner that replaces his pack after 10 years for $16K to $20K wipes out any efficiency that he could have possibly had. If you look at average electricity prices and gas prices 18 years ago, you will see despite heavy regulations electricity has not done much better with price increase. As we use more EVs with laws and infrastructure always lagging, there is a good chance we will end up paying more for use of our refrigerators because of these battery packs while off peak pricing gradually disappear. As far as over all BEV vs ICE, my next car will be EV due to other reasons among which are not wanting to put poison into my own longs or contribute to international conflics. Having an inverter on board without running the engine, quiet at low speed, potentially more reliable, better performance, ..... you name it. Tons of great things but not the battery pack (yet). If we don't buy EVs, the research to overcome it's shortcomings won't be funded. I won't be surprised to see a 600 mile pack the size of a briefcase in a few decades.
A better question (or two) Will it be necessary to change the battery in an EV (en mass)? If so, how much will it cost IN THE FUTURE? Answers Probably not...... Warranty should weed out any bad ones. Substantially less than now, and will probably result in an upgrade.
10 year old Nissan Leafs seem to sell quite well here in the UK for £4 to £5k......but it doesn't cost a fortune to get a Leaf battery refurbished rather than replaced.....
Yeah, but a ICE battery costs only couple hundred bucks. Transmission maybe a few thousands including labor. How much does it cost to replace EV motors, axles, all the cumputer shit in them? I will keep buying ICE for as long as it doesn't have an human killing AI controlling it.
I don't agree with your engine v battery comparison over 8 years. Even if you claim batteries won't need replacing after 8 years, engines are proven and easily go on 100k miles with no 70% distance covered worry, and if they do go faulty replacing an engine is very rare, normally parts on it or around it are replaced, costing nothing like a huge full battery replacement. Charging times and range is the area engineers need to focus on. This technology is still too new and needs some serious evolution before clumsy governments jump on the 'ban of fossil fuel cars' bandwagon.
Are you just a troll or what!? Other car manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia have been offering 7 and 10 years of warranty on their cars, also you can easily repair an old ice compared to EV depending on if you even find the battery replacement after warranty lol……
This is the point even after eight years whatever you still have to replace the battery if it doesn't die before it expired the warranty people caught you $12,000 does it make sense this is what makes electric cars no good are used electric cars causes $15,000 350 miles of charge from taking 10-hour charge 30 minutes I'm not sure how many hours you got left after the charge now New York is 1100 miles away and you only get 350 miles of charge that mean I would have to make arrangement in hotels going to New York it shows that electric car is not good
Cars are becoming disposable. And they are automating driving anyway. Because they don’t want you to drive. And they can shut you out of places if they want via the GPS. So don’t worry about how much batteries cost. You are going to have an app for an automated Uber soon. So don’t worry about it…. 😂 😊
So the best warranty is a car that has just shy of 100,000 miles and only drives 70 percent of what used to be 100 percent? That really doesn’t sound great. A battery will usually mess up right after that and then it costs at least $12,000 to replace and that’s the only option. You can’t trade it in with a bad battery unless you want a few dollars for a car you paid way too much for. Well this video just made electric cars look a lot worse. Also where can an electric car battery be recycled at? Hmm 🤔. Answer please. Haha 😂. Better for the environment is just a guess at this point.
Wait a minute ,wait a minute , what about people who’ve never bought a new car and never intend to buy a new car?I bought a 2011 Lincoln town car 2 years ago at 680000 Kms for $1500 . It’s on its original engine that uses no oil( this is why Ford no longer makes them)The only things I’ve replaced is the starter and battery.I assume the alternator is next.I’m hearing a lot of maybes and what if’s on possible battery life etc I’ll stick to the here and now and proven , thank you . And if an environmental Waco says I’m destroying the planet point to the propane sticker on the ex airport taxi’s trunk lid
The companies with best batteries that REALLY BELIEVE in their Batteries should offer a 400,000 mile replacement so they can sell more cars then their competitors. People will feel good about a purchase like that and by time companies have to replace them in future.if they need to the cost.of Batteries will be dirt cheap. Its a EASY WAY TO WIN now.and it.cost.you NOTHING in the future really but the Marketing miles you can get out of a sales pitch like that will get you to the moon
As you point out replacing EV batteries is not really an issue. However the cost of converting perfectly OK ICE vehicles to EV is more immediate and sustainable solution. There are not enough companies looking at this issue and the service garages for major auto manufacturers really could benefit.
There is a lot of BULLSHIT here!! Gas engine vehicles rarely get a factory new engine......... It would be foolish to buy one when a properly remanufactured engine will last as long or longer at 1/3 or less of the cost. It is a thriving industry. I personally have remanufactured literally hundreds of car engines, diesels, for tractors and machinery, etc over the last 40 years in my own shop with my own equipment. EVs will kill this industry....... You cannot rebuild batteries composed of multiple cells.... The cells must be matched to work together properly. The electric car will require less maintenance in most areas, which on the face of it looks like a good thing, but it will kill off most small shops forcing owners into dealer shops where the same procedure often costs double what it would in an independent shop.... or more. Without the competition, you are handing dealers a blank check! In addition of course owners can do almost none of the maintenance. As the independents go out of business, so too will the aftermarket parts suppliers. I'm seeing this already in agriculture and construction equipment. Companies like Agco, John Deere, Caterpillar, CaseIH, etc... are maintaining tight control of diagnostic technology and parts, making repair hugely expensive because a dealer mechanic must make a remote service call to fix anything but a flat tire or some other trivial mechanical issue. At least in automotive we have OBD II, and anybody can access diagnostic information to a greater or lesser degree depending on your equipment. RIGHT TO REPAIR is a huge issue, and has been the subject of a number of attempted legislations. If you buy something, it should come with the right to be able without too much expense to diagnose and repair it. That's just common sense. In the US, people are already in a 3 way squeeze between outrageous healthcare costs, and outrageous housing costs, and outrageous transportation costs......... This will just make it worse. To make matters worse, EVs are fine in mild climates. Where I live temps often drop into the sub zero (f) temps for weeks at a time. Experience shows that not only is battery capacity reduced at these temps, but also battery life. I've seen lithium ion batteries for power tools last as little as one year after being subjected to these temps. In addition to reduced capacity due to temp, you have the issue of heating the cabin, which will result in a significant reduction in range. They are NOT a panacea.... not even close. BEVs are an interim "solution", and not a really great one IMHO. The ultimate solution will probably be electric, but it will not be the current BEVs or fuel cell EVs. The internal combustion engine is doomed......... thankfully, as it is complex, maintenance intensive, dirty, and only about 20% efficient. The long term replacement technology may be in a lab somewhere. Humanity / modern civilization is well on the path of self destruction due to our grotesque overpopulation and wanton destruction of the environment we depend on......... we've been on this path all my life. One climatologist said something to the effect that humanity will consist of "a few mating pairs" in areas where the climate would sustain them by the turn of the century.... I suspect he was not far wrong!! Our efforts appear too little too late, and will always be complicated by the wacko evangelicals who are constantly, and foolishly looking to the horizon for Gabriel to take the faithful to the side of God!! And of course the greedy who seem to value their own prosperity relative to everybody else more than the survival of the species (which of course is of concern ONLY to humans), and those engineered creatures we have created to be dependent on us.
"You cannot rebuild batteries composed of multiple cells". Mmm. Cleveleys Electric Vehicles in Gloucestershire in the UK are already doing just that....... They posted a RUclips video of a 10 year old Leaf battery refurb they carried out. The work cost the Leaf owner £600... They also carry out repair and servicing work on other EV's, including Teslas, both in their own workshop plus on a mobile basis.
@@Brian-om2hh …….I stand corrected. At this point there of course isn’t the kind of “cottage industry” doing rebuilds that there is at least proportionally, but EVs are in their infancy as a mass market transportation option. Replacement of individual failed cells in a battery pack is going to be quite a challenge where the battery packs are becoming structural elements, and the individual batteries have spot welded connections on both top and bottom joining them into series and parallel. Identifying which of the many batteries are degraded, and matching others so that they function properly within an ecosystem of used / aged batteries is not a simple undertaking. For optimal results battery packs should have all the cells removed and separated, and the individual cells tested and graded. New (rebuilt) packs of equivalent graded cells that will perform together optimally and reliably long term would be assembled. To do a proper job would be labor intensive and require some really good testing equipment. I suspect it will not end up being inexpensive. The real value in this industry will be the development of a downcycle market for standardized form factor of battery packs to be used where the weight / capacity equation is not critical as it is in vehicles. There are numerous such applications, grid storage and home energy systems are the most obvious.
Hey Sam, thanks for this post, after a fair bit of hand wringing I got into a 2015 leaf for 18k that’s a 24 kWh car with usable maybe realistically 20 kWh. I bought it as a ex Japanese import, it displayed 10 bars of battery health @ 30k kms on the clock, usually a new leaf displays 12 bars. The car is for an early electric car a relatively simple beast with no battery thermal management system and had been predominantly fast charged in its early life leading to I believe a more rapid decline than say other more gently charged leafs. Battery charge data is easily accessed via leaf spy a free app via android and an OBD dongle. So at 10 bars my 20 kWh usable energy will still get me an honest 80 kms that’s two days of commuting per charge with charge time via standard household 10 amp power plug home charger of around 4 hours. I only run my battery between 10 and 80 percent to attempt to maintain longevity. Removing and servicing the battery is relatively simple as no thermal management system and modules are easily interchangeable to ditch dodgy cells. I can buy a new pack for 10 k or repair my existing for shit loads cheaper or sell my complete old battery pack for around 3 k for house hold storage system. I’ve owned a few cars in my time but this electric thing kicks serious arse, quick,quiet,efficient, cheap, and reliable. The leaf is our first car our second one a diesel 4x4 comes out to tow the boat or do the big kms
In 2017, my wife's off grid property needed new batteries. The lead acid batteries provided +/- 4kWhrs of usable storage for around 6 years at a cost of approximately $2000 US, and would have cost her +/- 3000 US to replace with the same type of lead acid batteries. We replaced them with 4 used Tesla packs from the Daimler smart 4 two vehicles. These used Tesla batteries now provide +/- 10kWhrs of usable storage for approximate $4000 US. I just helped a neighbor install 10kWhrs of brand new lithium iron phosphate batteries for approximately $3000 US. The prices of lithium batteries continue to drop at an incredible rate.
My bro’ has got a Renault Zoe 2013, had it about a year and bought the lease contract, It needed a little bit of work and the garage balanced the battery at 92%.( appox £8000 in total for car and battery) and charging costs are peanuts, or free. 😎
I still can’t buy a 2013 Leaf with a munted battery for under $13K AUD. By the time the car is sold insured and refurbished it’s about $23k to me. Then I would have a 8 year old Leaf ZE0 with a new battery and the same design faults from new. Plus it’s Leaf and Nissan Motors Australia are not fans of the Leaf. Hard pass. There is no upside here.
Edit: caveat is if you buy a new EV now or in a few years.
Hi Sam, I went EV in 2019. My biggest fear was being left with a car with a dud traction battery pack. Since 2019 we know so much more about the service life of these packs, and with the exception of the Nissan Leaf (because of the lack of thermal management), the pack should be just fine for the life of the vehicle unless you are unlucky - stuff breaks!
The Leaf does have the compensation of being relatively easy to sort though. A battery refurb is readily possible and viable, usually for much less cost that a total replacement. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere, but here in the UK, we have companies already offering battery refurbishments.
Can't wait for salvage parts to become more readily available for my Mazda RX-8 nostalgia class conversion project!
Excellent presentation
This information is very relevant for us in the third world.
I believe here we shall be using our cars for back up at home during peak hours ( at night ) when outages usually occur.
And after a battery change the old one goes into out home solar system.
My prediction is that batteries will become way cheaper in the future, meaning a battery swap after 10 years could actually make sense
But the batteries available in eight years will give more mileage for sure, so this is largely hypothetical thought.
@@Alarix246 So?? That is good news. The battery can be swapped with better battery tech in it, meaning it would extend the range of the older vehicle too
The question is, will the batteries you can get in 2030 fit in your decade old car and will they be electronically compatible. Maybe they will standardize sometime in the future, but many EVs have bespoke battery packs that only fit that model.
@@macrumpton These batteries are all made up of a lot of cells or modules. You can easily make a different shape with them, atleast the way they are now.
Can somebody share that driven page that Sam Evans has been talking about. I can't seem to get that website or web page. Thank you in advance.
My ice car has 265000kms and it's barely broken in. Also 12,000 for a car engine sounds extremely high!
Yes, a well maintained quality motor vehicle can outlast many of its owners.
As a comparison, try looking out for the RUclips video posted by a Tesla Model S owner. His car had covered 400'000 kms on it's original battery...
@@timothykeith1367 a well made ICE actually last generations, I still see 30 years old cars on the roads for example.
The myth about EV needing new batteries every few years was “Top Gear” Clarksonism that was jumped upon by those not wanting to lose their suck squeeze bang and blow toys, strengthened by everyone’s experience of mobile phone batteries. Only recently did phone manufacturers latch on to the idea of halting charging at 80% until the phone was needed for use. This habit was founded by car battery management knowledge especially at Tesla. Top Gear did a lot of damage to the uptake of early EV adoption, but could not resist the tide of demand that has come out of 10 years of practical experiences debunking all those myths.
I think that you raise a valid point.
My phone has a "bedtime mode" and it allows the phone to take all night to my morning alarm to 100%.
One+ from Shenzen.
And not to mention ten additional years of development and practical experience?
Nonsense, they were actually right! Battery degradation doesn’t just reduce your range but depending on how you use your car, with constant supercharging for example it slowly kills the battery, you can still easily drive a 20 years old ice with its original engine and gearbox, in fact even 30years old ice.
@@alanmay7929 both right then.
I'm still running a 2006 VW Golf 1.9TDI DSG gearbox with 228k on it.
The gearbox oil changes are eye-wateringly expensive £300 at a dealer. But my son bought the special tool and for a good bottle of whisky it's only about £100 for the oil and filter. The "Mechatronic" brain on the gearbox failed though and was £1000 from a scrap yard.
You pointed out pretty clearly that replacing the battery pack going forward will largely become a non issue (beyond upgrades). My question is, with battery packs becoming more and more part of the structure of the car, will this affect replacement?
I'm only guessing...it's maybe an issue but they only done it after the batteries got good enough to last the same time as the car (it seems). They probably wanted to make the battery a part of the car years ago but knew the batteries weren't good enough for it.
Battery being structural, does not mean it can not be replaced. The pack is often bolted to the frame at locations that add to the rigidity while somewhat shielded from impact but still can be removed. The main difference in some designs vs others is that batteries inside the backs may all be glued tightly together so replacing individual batteries would be difficult (I think this is how Tesla plan to put 4680 in the pack for Cybertruck but other configurations like GM Pack setup allows to replace sub units separately. I am not personally involved in any of these processes but that is my understanding.
@@Justwantahover wrong, the battery pack/ cells needs to be reused after the life of the car or after an accident or water damage for example, modular batteries are the way to remain/go.
@@Tooradj lol…. New form factors batteries and electronics could come in the future and render the actual ones obsolete.
Ah, Finland, average car life today is about 21 years.. Finland is member of European Union. So, there are countries where car is expected to last quite long, even in western world. FYI
21 years is a long time for a vehicle to last. Rust alone can destroy cars in less time. The Finns must be strict on maintenance.
@@timothykeith1367 I believe we have our reasons to like certain car brands more than others. Dinitrol has good stuff against rust, and we have quite a long distances. We use also engine heaters to prolong engine life winter time. Every cold start is said to equal 500km drive. I still believe in electric cars also here.
My kids not old enough to drive yet. Guess what their 1st cars will be? Yep the cheaper, reliable ICE. Case in point my 2006 Ford Focus Zx4 ST still alive and kicking with no issues. In fact I traded it in for a brand new Ranger 4x4 Sport and got way more for it than it should have, which allowed the Ranger to fit my budget very comfortably.
Hey Sam, great info but just to clarify that my 2015 BMW i3 has an 8 year 70% battery degradation warranty as well. In the USA
You must test your battery on a 'standard' or average temperature day as much as possible, not always easy to do.
Tesla battery pack is still cheap considering it can last much more than8 years. The Etron is about 3 times the cost. Around 50kcdn estimate based on the US dealer price of 36500us in Calif.
All the testing has been done in a controlled environment. The batteries will age much faster in cold or hot states.
Thanks for making informative interesting videos! I do have a request- i listen to these while commuting to work in an ice vehicle, and have to turn the volume to max and still struggle to hear. Is it possible for you to turn your mic up? Ice problems haha
Forgive me if this question has already been asked... If you buy an EV used, say 4yrs old. Is the warranty for battery life/ 70% transferable to 2nd owner etc? Thanks.
It's not necessarily 8 years, it depends on what comes first between miles given an years. Some hit given miles within 2 years
I always considered these warranties only worth anything against serious internal failure. Lifetime degenerative capacity loss is almost never going to go as low as 70% of original capacity. Especially with active battery thermal management, so the warranty will not be about regular degradation, ever. It is about internal catastrophic failure.
Exactly my thought. I drive a Zoe, and the only cases I heard about with replaced (or rather refurbished/repaired) battery packs have been cars that suddenly refused to charge, giving errors, etc.
It depends on how you use your car, supercharging constantly and driving in very cold erea could eventually deteriorate quickly, let's not forget low discharging
In some cases only a few dead cells need to be replaced, then if the pack is rebalanced it will come up again. There's a good video on Rich Rebuilds channel about that.
There's also a RUclips video posted by someone called James and Kate. They had a battery refurb carried out on their 10 year old Leaf at an independent EV specialist in the UK, and it cost them £600.....
Nothing if the battery is subscribed and swapped to another. No worries, extra cost or battery degradation headaches for customer or consumer. This would change the whole idea for EVs. I do not understand why consumers must pay the cost of used car damaged battery. The second option is that car manufacturers will offer at least 20 years warranty/performance guarantee for the ev-battery. After that there will be resale value for used EV-cars.
In case you are a hifi nut:
Buy some 5" full range (single) drivers. Try and get the ones with the solid metal phase plug in the center. And preferably without a whizzer cone. You can cut them off with a hobby knife. Tang Band, Fostex and Coral are good middle priced FR driver brands.
Make a stubby floor stand speaker box. Say 250mm X 270mm x700mm. Make a single speaker hole near the top so the driver fits in. And put some old rags or wadding inside the box (loosely). Now this is where thing get different.
Make a 50 mm deep bass vent tube to fit the driver hole (yes the driver hole is also a bass vent).
And mount the driver above the driver hole. A 10 mm gap on the top speaker screws and like 15 mm gap on the bottom speaker screws. Use longer screws and thin flexy hose as spacers (cut a bit longer than the gap). The soft garden hose easily squashes to the desired length.
And you have to tweak the both gaps a little bit to get the best (overall) sound. The smaller the gap the more it shouts and the larger the gap the more bass and treble. So you can get it sounding great! The sound from the rear of the cone escapes from the gap giving a more spacial sound. Also the bass vent makes pure point source sound (more ghostly).
You can add a crossover filter thing as well after getting it to sound best first. And use electrolytic capacitors on FR single drivers cos it makes them sound silky, ceramic capacitors make FR drivers sound more brittle. And you can add a woofer on the bottom panel facing the floor, with higher stubs on the bottom high enough to let the bass out. You need an 8 mh inductor for the woofer and maybe a resistor to tame the woofer. I hate the bass drowning out the nice high stuff.
And speaking of high stuff, the open cone mounting EXTENDS the treble! And if you want more super high treble, use a 2 ohm resistor and a 270 ohm in parallel, connected to the + terminal of the driver. How it extends the top is a mystery but that is what I clearly can hear, I discovered it accidentally. I wanted to get just a tiny bit less resistance and I couldn't believe my ears!
Or (even better) also use a 0.22 mh inductor and 1 mf (electolytic) speaker capacitor, all in parallel with the two resistors. Do all that and they will smoke any speaker regardless of price (for normal listening levels). They sound better than normal speakers cos they sound like panel speakers and better than panel speakers cos they are light years cheaper and haven't got 6 ft mouths.
Want the best amp? Get the Audiolab 6000 Play. Costs 1,800 and Andrew Robinson (oh YoTube) said that the only amp he had that beat it, was a 10 grand tube amp. So I just got one and it's lovely. Cheers Big Ears!
Hi Sam! My 2015 VW e-Up! 18.7kw has the 8 years warranty too and probably the other VW EV’s I believe.
I actually have GOM 135 Km range from the initial 160 Km, so the 30% range loss every 10 years for LNCM batteries 🔋 is quite spot on for me. My e-Up! has no battery pack thermal management.
I hope 🤞🏻 VW will make an battery pack upgrade for 1st Gen. e-Up’s to replace it with the Gen 2 pack with doubled capacity in the same form factor. I adore this agile urban small car with 210nm torque, with the bigger pack it would be perfect 👍🏻
i have a vw e-up that i bought last year and it has the 8 year 70% warranty. it has the bigger battery and its a great car. very efficient too. i can regularly drive it with 10kWh/100km which is half of what some other evs need. and its very quick.
@@peterkonrad4364 This channel loves BYD but after watching a BYD Tang video where the temperature was between 5 and 10 degrees Celsius it was averaging over 30 kwh per 100km very bad range! Makes your VW look impressive!
@@gregb1599 yeah when it is cold, it is getting worse, but thats normal. may also have been a four wheel drive suv type vehicle they naturally consume more.
@@peterkonrad4364 3x worse? A compact ICE hatchback may get 40mpg while a small Japanese AWD SUV may get 30mpg, the same with your compact VW should be maybe 18 vs your 10 but no way 3x
Audi, BMW, Mini also has 8 year/160t.km. warrenty.In Europe, think they all have it. I drive > 50.000 km/year so that is just around 3 years warrenty. Not likely that its stop working but it is expensive if it happens.
Can you advise if the electricity you are using to charge your ev car and the factory making the ev car is solar powered? Also thank you for your explanation, it was clear and factual. Have a great day.
I still see this as a potential issue with used electric cars in the future. If someone keep a car 10 years, it would basically be considered totaled due to the price of a new battery. I think there will end up being a lot of battery extended warranty, battery replacement programs and cheaper refurbished battery shops around to supplement this!
Let's say the capacity of a 100 KW battery is at 80%, so it will hold only 80 KW charge at maximum. Let's say I get the battery down to 0% charge and then plug it in for recharging at home. Does this mean that my home will be sending a total of 100 KW to the battery during it's recharge cycle but the battery will max out at only 80 KW?
I ask because over the decades, I have had laptop batteries which used to hold 3 hours of charge on demanding applications which then hold only 5-10 minutes of charge after a few years. I notice that these bad batteries will show "100% charged" after a few hours of idle charging and even become HOT during the time it is charging to full (so obviously, the HEAT GENERATED by that bad battery during it's recharge cycle is telling me that electric current is continuing to flow through that bad battery, thereby WASTING ENERGY in the form of HEAT GENERATION).
NOBODY has EVER covered this particular question in ANY RUclips video. All they mention is that the battery will "degrade" over the years and hold less charge than brand new, but NEVER any mention if electricity is WASTED by trying to charge a battery that can reach only 80% of it's original capacity.
do not underestimate with the useful life. LFP batteries have a much longer life cycle about 2-3 time longer. this is very beneficial to the residual value. When an MNC bettery is end of life, the LFP battery still has half to go and have a higher value on the 2nd hand market.
I bought a silver model 3 LR over 3 years ago. It still charges to 303 miles. You have to take in account efficiency upgrades as well. I haven’t been back to the tezla dealership since I bought it.
Very informative, you saved me hours of research. It has cleared up a lot of q's. Cheers Big Ears.
Great to hear!
The key for consumer battery benefits will be standardization of the battery packs/controllers/cases. Right now the industry is still in the frothy experimental phase to see what actually works along with rapid invention improvements. But we will need common features like the (mandated) USB-C ports on phones and AAA,AA,C,D consumer electronic device batteries. Look at the craziness of laptop battery modules (sure they often use the same Panasonic cells that were used in the early Teslas) but they were and are all unique by brand and model. Standardize battery features and the remanufacturing side of the business fixes all the long term vehicle battery replacement concerns.
Yeah, battery tech is now like we had to purchase tires made only for a specific vehicle.
BMS and liquid cooling is critical. Our Tesla cars from 2013 after 300.000 km have only lost a little more than 1% per year. Only thing is charging speed that is software controlled has been nerfed.
Or it is possible that the software update unlocked some of the battery buffer to hide more battery degradation, many EV have a 5-10kwh of unuseable capacity so it is quite easy for Tesla to release some of that buffer though an update just like they did by limiting the charging speeds
You know what's funny? Batteries degrade faster in extreme weather conditions. What means that developing nations might never fully rely on the waranty, as their machines are used in very high temperatures. They have barely any money to invest into the E grid. Now they face my mentioned problem. Grim outlook, right?
The packs need to work with the Thermal Management system in the vehicle, not sure what that means though.
To be fair - the 8 years is darn good - but the miliage seems somewhat low. I would think that getting 10, or 12 years would be a ok trade off . I mean, 8 years is not bad - probably better then ICE cars. But that replacement cost is still quite high. If you take 10 years of ICE car maintains, and then say compare against a battery replacement after 10 years - I think the numbers should not be too bad.
Good for you to address this elephant in the room. (some might try to sweep this issue under the carpet so to speak).
Without question the battery pack replacement issue is a "big" deal, and a worry for EV owners.
I would also suggest that a battery pack replacement in 8 or 10 years should be MUCH less - perhaps even half the cost. And in that case, then the EV car will win hands down. So, we just at the start of the battery pack drop in price.
As it stands right now - this is still a "worry" issue, but over time it should become less of a worry. The same worry exists in Canada, since with cold winters, then those LFP battery packs may well suffer more degradation then in more mild climates. On the other hand, Norway has quite cold winters, and thus some good data will and is coming out on this issue.
I mean, just like when you buy a used ICE car, you often get the mechanic to check/test the compression of the motor. If the car shows worse compression, then the value of that car is simply reduced. Same goes for a EV - that battery pack condition is going to quite much decide the value of that EV car at that point in time.
Right now, the battery replacement cost is in fact quite high. You of course have to consider the maintains free operation during that time frame.
This is still a big concern - but over time this issue will reduce. In 8 years from now, those battery packs should be MUCH less cost.
Actually ICE last longer than EVs especially the well made ones, people still drive around with 30 to 40 years old ICE and it says alot tbh.
EVs are actually used in a very soft environment compared to ICE that can basically go everywhere and survive harsch conditiond.
What happen if that car leave there for 5 year never drive. Will the battery have problems?
I drive a 30 year old car...works great and with proper maintenance will still be running strong after yall spend another 150,000 on your battery operated stompers
What about structural battery packs in tesla, where all the cells are glued together. Then you only have the option of replacing the whole thing, no?
It seems that way. Although Tesla packs do seem to be lasting well. Witness the RUclips video posted by one Model S owner. His car had covered 400'000 kms on it's original battery....
@@Brian-om2hh lol...... What about over a million miles on an ice?
How easy is it to access the batteries and replace or swap them out of various cars. Is access restricted to the manufacturer. Who can do the swap out ot the battery.
Do and manufacturers restrict access to the battery area and prevent replacement or swapping of the battery modules.
Battery prices will only come down if there is competition... new technology will keep prices at a constant minimum (whatever that price minimum may be) just like computers... due to the sophistication of technology it will only be major companies producing high tech quality batteries, why "Battery Technology" is being chosen in the first place, as compared, for example, to hydrogen power (superior imo) i.e. 'Battery Tech' was 'chosen' to be the next "Fuel Source" because it will be easier to control the population (just cut off electricity for a week...) i.e. to maintain "Control of Distribution of..." in this case the manufacture of high quality battery production... Oh and nobody thinks the cost of electricity won't continue to rise?... Lol... Same deal... This principle applies even more to electricity... (i.e. "Control of the Distribution of...")
Battery replacement will kill the used car market in the future.
Unfortunately, "calendar aging" is a thing with lithium chemistries, so could fade to 70% sitting in a barn even if not driven. This may not be that relevant in the real world "for purpose" usage. I have not experienced this on my NCA recumbent etrike packs over the last 3 years, subjectively, but I rarely use the full charge cycle, and the packs are in parallel so easy usage.
4416 of the 2170 cells costs around $25-$28k, NOT $12k. Of course, that doesn't include service center costs, since the systems have to be flashed by a TESLA SERVICE TECH ONLY at a Tesla service e center for everything to work.
And there's no guarantee Tesla will consider your battery failure a WARRANTY ITEM. The real car makers actually follow the rules, so they're more likely to honor the warranty.
Mr. Troll, on what basis did you come with this idea that they won't honor any warranties.
Yeah I remember a case where a brand new Tesla Model 3 owner ran over something on the road and it damaged part of the battery, Tesla said the battery needs replacing at $16k and not under warranty due to road debris. A RUclipsr called Rich Rebuilds managed to fix it for $700. Just search about that and can find it, but it is a lot more expensive than $12k on a Tesla for battery replacement!
And another one was a Tesla Model S that was $22k for a replacement and that one was repaired independently for $7k
@@shirishag75able You were saying?
@@billcichoke2534 I stand by it. The gentleman above says something, we are not aware of the complete context. Tesla has sold something like few million EV cars to date. I have no idea about how many cars have problem but let's say 2-3 % cars have problems or rather batteries, so it would be few thousand people who would have done battery replacements one way or the other. If it would have been a serious issue then you wouldn't get one off people but there would be hundreds of people who would be flooding and calling out Tesla. I haven't seen that on SM and I use it a lot. .
@@shirishag75able They have actually sold 1.9 million EV to date still impressive but not a few million yet...
What would you need in Australia to use a second-hand ev battery in a solar panel off-grid system, without owning an ev? Judging from the information here it seems like that would be a cheaper and better system than the Tesla Powerwall as an ev battery would store a lot more electricity.
People wrongly think that because their cell phone battery only lasts several years, that EV's will be the same. The phone business model has been that is a disposable item that they want you to upgrade to the latest every few years so didn't try and make them last.
What happen if electric cars get accidents how much damage can it effect the batteries? Can it still running or do we have to replace the whole batteries and how much it cost?
That's what car insurance is for...
Will you be able to change batteries with the new battery pack about to be launched by Tesla?
Do extended standby time have negative affects on these batteries? If a car sits for weeks, is used lightly, then parked for few more weeks; will that battery last many many years or does the standby times degrade the battery just b/c of entropy? Thanks.
Should I buy an ev if I drive 35k-50k miles per year?
I watch some Ukrainian garage channel that specializes in second hand imported EVs.
They bring a lot of 3-5 year old cars on which they balance the batteries for very reasonable prices.
Most of the time, if your battery degrades, it's a number of individual cells that degrade, and are significantly cheaper to replace.
The electronics are not too difficult to understand and the tooling is common because it's generally the same as fixing consumer electronics.
Here is an example of them building a LFP battery pack for a used Nissan Leaf.
ruclips.net/video/oKHO6lNNXkY/видео.html
There is a company in the UK - Cleveleys Electric Vehicles - who offer EV battery refurbishing. They posted a video on RUclips a while ago of a battery refurb they did on a 10 year old Leaf. The work took 4 hours, and cost the owner £600.... As you point ot, significantly cheaper than a full replacement pack.
Only draw back gas cars can last 15 /20 years..By time the 8 years comes up the cost is going to by pass $12,.000 if the car is in good shape but battery needs replacement most won't be able to replace the battery..
30% of 300 miles which is probably really 290 leave only a 203 mile range after 8 years... not so great... why I think they need to make a car with at least 800 MILE range... that doesn't even take into consideration, heavy loads, extra passengers and cold/heat degradation...
But then the new asking price would reflect the fact the car had an 800 mile range. Not everyone wants or needs an 800 mile range. Here in the UK, the average *weekly* commute is around 140 miles, with the average UK motorway/freeway journey being 70 to 80 miles. If the charging infrastructure is large enough, and offers quick enough charging speeds, then massive range may not be such a big consideration....
I agree 8 year warranty beats any ice car, however if after th hat 8 years tiu have to replace that battery, it's difficult spend 12gees on an ice car, even if your motor and tranny went out together. I tend to keep car 10+ years. Current, my ice cars range from 20 to 34 years old. No, I'm not shitten you. However, keeping it real, the arguments you give for dealing with battery life to extend car life are good. Thank you!
Except for ICE cars like Mitsubishi where they have a 10 year drive train warranty and even their car warranty can be increased to 10 years with an additional cost. Kia is some countries gets a 7 year full warranty
And remember Tesla has a very short 4 year 80,000km warranty on the rest of the car
Why do you think the battery will need replacing after 8 years? Does an ICE car engine suddenly stop working when the warranty expires?
@@Brian-om2hh My EV battery is still going strong at 7 years and apparently it's supposed to be the worst battery, but just like any car ICE or EV some come out of the production line with a undetected fault which is why some cars offer a very long warranty. But nothing lasts forever including batteries, which I guess is the reason Tesla dropped the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the Model S and X and replaced it with a 8 year 160,000 km warranty as too many high mileage Tesla's batteries were failing during that 8 years...
A guy on youtube said it cost him $ 22,000 to replace a Tesla battery
That's one of the reasons I chose to avoid buying a Tesla. Most other EV's batteries can be refurbished rather than replaced.
They don’t replace faulty cells on disconnect them because the rest of the cells are ok and if 1 or 10 cells are cut of you won’t even notice this.
Truth is the only BEV's that really needed batteries replaced in a somewhat large number was the Nissan Leaf. They were one of the first BEV's. They didn't have a good battery management system and so a lot of their batteries degraded as much as 20% in just a year or two. Just like the VAST MAJORITY of people never worry about "how much it will cost to change the engine in my car"... NO ONE needs to worry about ever changing the battery on a Modern vehicle. The car itself will be a pile of junk before the battery gives out.
30 % of unwrarantied capacity on general ranger of 300 km range on a motorway means passing to 200 km range .. not acceptable ... but it is not to worst ... after 8 years will fresh pack available ? in my opinion no !
will 2022 EV cars' battery be capatible for 2035 battery technology?
Do a future vid with a guy selling batteries out of a bag outside a convenience store at night
This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks for sharing.
Great to hear!
are you jokin ? there is also a millage limit to the warranty !, on my last deisel engine I did 400.000 km before any degradation
With technology improvements will a 15 year old car seem well behind the times.
With technology improvements and rate of change is trying to see ten years into the future at best a educated guess.
So when it is warranted but without stating the %, how do you prove it needs replaced
What do you think of the VW I4?
1,000,000 km WOW!! BYD
But it's not the motors guaranteed it's the batteries.
So in say 8 years my battery might be down to 70%. But in 8 years the charging infrastructure will be what? Twice as big, three or four? Whatever it is it’s gonna be a vast improvement and there will be chargers all over the place so long journeys needing multiple charges will be at most an inconvenience rather than a deal breaker. I wonder if actually once the infrastructure improves battery sizes might get smaller and our worn 70% capacity batteries might actually be larger than the new cars being sold? No idea, but for sure I’ve zero worries about degradation as I’m sure the ever improving infrastructure will more than compensate.
I have no idea how it is anywhere else, but here in the UK we presently have around 26'000 public charging connections. A big contract has very recently been signed to increase this number to 190'000 public connections in the UK by 2030, which is when the ban on the sale of new ICE cars and vans arrives.
I have a 1998 Dodge Durango that I bought in 2000 (24 years old) that still gets 16 MPG highway and has 104,000 miles (167,000K) so no appreciable loss of performance. Considering that the EV battery (where the electricity is stored) is more akin to the fuel tank and not the engine, over the intervening 24 years since my Durango was new, a loss in capacity is more like the fuel tank going from 22 gallons to 15.4 gallon capacity. Since my fuel tank still holds 22 gallons, I have had ZERO loss in capacity and negligible performance over 24 years
The manufacturers should be designing cars where the battery can easily be replaced or upgraded when better batteries come out. That's not how they will do it though. They want you to go out and buy a whole new car. I have some late breaking news for you. There are a lot of people who can't afford, or who are unwilling to go out and spend $40,000 at a minimum for a new vehicle, or most likely way more than that. I have a 2015 Nissan LEAF with a 24kwh pack. I should be able to upgrade at an affordable price. I'm not going to go out and buy a whole new vehicle when all I need is a new battery. There should be laws requiring easy battery replacement. Furthermore, they are loading these new vehicles up with lots of extra technology, like self driving that isn't needed or wanted. They are doing it to drive up the prices. That isn't what's needed to address global warming. You need to make a slimmed down reliable affordable vehicle. Doing what's right runs counter to capitalism. Bottom line, none of what's going on right now is going to fix anything. Things will only get worse from here on out. Huge EV trucks and luxury cars isn't going to solve the problem. Furthermore, I don't like the vendor lock in. Tesla is just like Apple. Have someone else service your vehicle and they disable your charging.
Not sure about that $12k tesla battery Sam. Is that US$'s? Is that including instalation? I believe it's a more than that.Can someone please enlighten accuratly. In any case you don't need to worry about an expensive Auto tranny either and chemical plant fitted to ICE cars these days and so many other parts.
@@nicewknd Repairing is far from being a new pack. If you have an oldish battery, what's the point of replacing some dead cells to keep the car, when other cells will more than likely soon follow? What's the official price for a new M3 60kwh battery fitted?
@@nicewknd No issue get a tissue. Just wondering what that price is? Some have said its US$20k+ and Sam has said it's $12k. It's just educating yourself and it is a common question.
@@nicewknd And Sam here just telling us BYD increasing battery prices by 20%. To much speculation and misinformation around. Blind hype getting in the way of the truth. I'm a BEV fan that wants the truth, warts and all.
@@nicewknd I really hope so. Because as it stands, Bevs are way of price parity at the lower end of the market, hindering major take-up.
The Korean brands have battery warranty like everyone else here in Sweden.
An excellent presentation. Cheers.
Thank you kindly!
Missing alot of points actually, like reduced charging time with degraded batteries....
Kia gives a 7 year / 200 000 km warranty and costs half the price of a EV
But just watch the cost of gas and diesel rocket in the next 5 years. Gas/petrol here in the UK now costs £1.45 per litre, with diesel at £1.50 per litre.... ICE cars will also doubtless have to contend with the introduction of emissions charging schemes in towns and cities. We in the UK are already seeing these appearing now....
With the current fuel and energy prices in my country, i would save about 16,000€ after 160,000km if i replace my current gasoline car for a BEV. Thats only for the fuel.
If i add the savings in repairs, maintenance and tax, the number is above 20,000€.
Will the new toyota BZ4X EV have the better lithium ion phosphate batteries?
Well it is reported to get a 10 year 90% retention warranty, good luck finding a better warranty than that!
The batteries only last about 8 years!!!
So to GET that 1 million miles, you’d have to drive 125,000 miles a year, which you won’t. You’ll probably do 50,000 or MUCH less like the people who do automobile leasing figured out.
Supercharging and other factors also reduces the range/capacities of batteries.
Great video. I do however think comparing BEV battery pack with ICE engine is misleading. Electric motor in BEV has the same functions engine has in ICE. Battery pack is BEV’s gas tank equivalent. The original gas tank in my ICE is 18 years old and I doubt it will ever need to be replaced. It’s capacity is exactly the same as the day it was produced and never leaked like batteries do. Our second car’s gas tank has 600 mile range. Don’t get me wrong, my next car will be electric for many reasons but this is not one of them.
The capacity of you gas tank might be exactly the same as the day you bought the car, but the cost of filling it isn't...... Plus there is no way your 18 year old car will be anything like as efficient as it was when new. It probably uses more fuel and oil now. An EV will retain a much higher percentage of it's efficiency throughout it's life if looked after. Also, you have the opportunity to generate your own "fuel" - or at least some of it - for an EV if you have solar, or are able to install it...
@@Brian-om2hh Great point about producing your own power. And having a gas station in your house is nice too but over all I still believe gas tank wins. Keep in mind I am arguing only gas tank vs battery pack not BEV vs ICE.
Although my 18 year old truck is definitely less efficient than new, it's gas tank is much more efficient than a Rivian battery pack. R1T at 5% charge is carrying 2000 Ib extra dead weight. My truck is much lighter when tank is full and gets only more efficient as weight goes down. That is true for the life of the vehicle. Power density of gas and fill time still makes my gas tank beat BEV battery pack every time especially when towing long distance. And after 35 years of driving I have never paid to replace a gas tank. A Tesla owner that replaces his pack after 10 years for $16K to $20K wipes out any efficiency that he could have possibly had.
If you look at average electricity prices and gas prices 18 years ago, you will see despite heavy regulations electricity has not done much better with price increase. As we use more EVs with laws and infrastructure always lagging, there is a good chance we will end up paying more for use of our refrigerators because of these battery packs while off peak pricing gradually disappear.
As far as over all BEV vs ICE, my next car will be EV due to other reasons among which are not wanting to put poison into my own longs or contribute to international conflics. Having an inverter on board without running the engine, quiet at low speed, potentially more reliable, better performance, ..... you name it. Tons of great things but not the battery pack (yet).
If we don't buy EVs, the research to overcome it's shortcomings won't be funded. I won't be surprised to see a 600 mile pack the size of a briefcase in a few decades.
A better solution for all. Lease don't own a ev. Battery dies, swap whole car for a new one.
A better question (or two)
Will it be necessary to change the battery in an EV (en mass)?
If so, how much will it cost IN THE FUTURE?
Answers
Probably not...... Warranty should weed out any bad ones.
Substantially less than now, and will probably result in an upgrade.
But the electric car also has a electric motor so how far can that go?
Hell no use gas
Will any electric vehicle have any value after eight years ?
10 year old Nissan Leafs seem to sell quite well here in the UK for £4 to £5k......but it doesn't cost a fortune to get a Leaf battery refurbished rather than replaced.....
Yeah, but a ICE battery costs only couple hundred bucks. Transmission maybe a few thousands including labor. How much does it cost to replace EV motors, axles, all the cumputer shit in them? I will keep buying ICE for as long as it doesn't have an human killing AI controlling it.
I don't agree with your engine v battery comparison over 8 years. Even if you claim batteries won't need replacing after 8 years, engines are proven and easily go on 100k miles with no 70% distance covered worry, and if they do go faulty replacing an engine is very rare, normally parts on it or around it are replaced, costing nothing like a huge full battery replacement.
Charging times and range is the area engineers need to focus on.
This technology is still too new and needs some serious evolution before clumsy governments jump on the 'ban of fossil fuel cars' bandwagon.
Are you just a troll or what!? Other car manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia have been offering 7 and 10 years of warranty on their cars, also you can easily repair an old ice compared to EV depending on if you even find the battery replacement after warranty lol……
This is the point even after eight years whatever you still have to replace the battery if it doesn't die before it expired the warranty people caught you $12,000 does it make sense this is what makes electric cars no good are used electric cars causes $15,000 350 miles of charge from taking 10-hour charge 30 minutes I'm not sure how many hours you got left after the charge now New York is 1100 miles away and you only get 350 miles of charge that mean I would have to make arrangement in hotels going to New York it shows that electric car is not good
Cars are becoming disposable. And they are automating driving anyway. Because they don’t want you to drive. And they can shut you out of places if they want via the GPS.
So don’t worry about how much batteries cost.
You are going to have an app for an automated Uber soon. So don’t worry about it…. 😂 😊
$12,000 for a petro motor replacement? I can buy a brand new crate motor for under $4000.00 and get it installed for $1000.00 or do it myself.
A used car with good inspections even cost around that 4k tbh
A bit cheaper and a bit safer, all good.
So the best warranty is a car that has just shy of 100,000 miles and only drives 70 percent of what used to be 100 percent? That really doesn’t sound great. A battery will usually mess up right after that and then it costs at least $12,000 to replace and that’s the only option. You can’t trade it in with a bad battery unless you want a few dollars for a car you paid way too much for. Well this video just made electric cars look a lot worse. Also where can an electric car battery be recycled at? Hmm 🤔. Answer please. Haha 😂. Better for the environment is just a guess at this point.
Wait a minute ,wait a minute , what about people who’ve never bought a new car and never intend to buy a new car?I bought a 2011 Lincoln town car 2 years ago at 680000 Kms for $1500 . It’s on its original engine that uses no oil( this is why Ford no longer makes them)The only things I’ve replaced is the starter and battery.I assume the alternator is next.I’m hearing a lot of maybes and what if’s on possible battery life etc I’ll stick to the here and now and proven , thank you . And if an environmental Waco says I’m destroying the planet point to the propane sticker on the ex airport taxi’s trunk lid
9 year old Nissan Leafs have no value
The companies with best batteries that REALLY BELIEVE in their Batteries should offer a 400,000 mile replacement so they can sell more cars then their competitors. People will feel good about a purchase like that and by time companies have to replace them in future.if they need to the cost.of Batteries will be dirt cheap. Its a EASY WAY TO WIN now.and it.cost.you NOTHING in the future really but the Marketing miles you can get out of a sales pitch like that will get you to the moon
Main worry is that the brain dies, and you can’t get a new one.
I bet insurance will total evs easy
As you point out replacing EV batteries is not really an issue. However the cost of converting perfectly OK ICE vehicles to EV is more immediate and sustainable solution. There are not enough companies looking at this issue and the service garages for major auto manufacturers really could benefit.
Lol..... Not all ICE are suited for EV conversion and there is actually not enough battery to even make brand new EVs.
There is a lot of BULLSHIT here!! Gas engine vehicles rarely get a factory new engine......... It would be foolish to buy one when a properly remanufactured engine will last as long or longer at 1/3 or less of the cost. It is a thriving industry. I personally have remanufactured literally hundreds of car engines, diesels, for tractors and machinery, etc over the last 40 years in my own shop with my own equipment. EVs will kill this industry....... You cannot rebuild batteries composed of multiple cells.... The cells must be matched to work together properly. The electric car will require less maintenance in most areas, which on the face of it looks like a good thing, but it will kill off most small shops forcing owners into dealer shops where the same procedure often costs double what it would in an independent shop.... or more. Without the competition, you are handing dealers a blank check! In addition of course owners can do almost none of the maintenance. As the independents go out of business, so too will the aftermarket parts suppliers. I'm seeing this already in agriculture and construction equipment. Companies like Agco, John Deere, Caterpillar, CaseIH, etc... are maintaining tight control of diagnostic technology and parts, making repair hugely expensive because a dealer mechanic must make a remote service call to fix anything but a flat tire or some other trivial mechanical issue. At least in automotive we have OBD II, and anybody can access diagnostic information to a greater or lesser degree depending on your equipment. RIGHT TO REPAIR is a huge issue, and has been the subject of a number of attempted legislations. If you buy something, it should come with the right to be able without too much expense to diagnose and repair it. That's just common sense. In the US, people are already in a 3 way squeeze between outrageous healthcare costs, and outrageous housing costs, and outrageous transportation costs......... This will just make it worse. To make matters worse, EVs are fine in mild climates. Where I live temps often drop into the sub zero (f) temps for weeks at a time. Experience shows that not only is battery capacity reduced at these temps, but also battery life. I've seen lithium ion batteries for power tools last as little as one year after being subjected to these temps. In addition to reduced capacity due to temp, you have the issue of heating the cabin, which will result in a significant reduction in range. They are NOT a panacea.... not even close.
BEVs are an interim "solution", and not a really great one IMHO. The ultimate solution will probably be electric, but it will not be the current BEVs or fuel cell EVs. The internal combustion engine is doomed......... thankfully, as it is complex, maintenance intensive, dirty, and only about 20% efficient. The long term replacement technology may be in a lab somewhere.
Humanity / modern civilization is well on the path of self destruction due to our grotesque overpopulation and wanton destruction of the environment we depend on......... we've been on this path all my life. One climatologist said something to the effect that humanity will consist of "a few mating pairs" in areas where the climate would sustain them by the turn of the century.... I suspect he was not far wrong!! Our efforts appear too little too late, and will always be complicated by the wacko evangelicals who are constantly, and foolishly looking to the horizon for Gabriel to take the faithful to the side of God!! And of course the greedy who seem to value their own prosperity relative to everybody else more than the survival of the species (which of course is of concern ONLY to humans), and those engineered creatures we have created to be dependent on us.
"You cannot rebuild batteries composed of multiple cells". Mmm. Cleveleys Electric Vehicles in Gloucestershire in the UK are already doing just that....... They posted a RUclips video of a 10 year old Leaf battery refurb they carried out. The work cost the Leaf owner £600... They also carry out repair and servicing work on other EV's, including Teslas, both in their own workshop plus on a mobile basis.
@@Brian-om2hh …….I stand corrected. At this point there of course isn’t the kind of “cottage industry” doing rebuilds that there is at least proportionally, but EVs are in their infancy as a mass market transportation option. Replacement of individual failed cells in a battery pack is going to be quite a challenge where the battery packs are becoming structural elements, and the individual batteries have spot welded connections on both top and bottom joining them into series and parallel. Identifying which of the many batteries are degraded, and matching others so that they function properly within an ecosystem of used / aged batteries is not a simple undertaking. For optimal results battery packs should have all the cells removed and separated, and the individual cells tested and graded. New (rebuilt) packs of equivalent graded cells that will perform together optimally and reliably long term would be assembled. To do a proper job would be labor intensive and require some really good testing equipment. I suspect it will not end up being inexpensive. The real value in this industry will be the development of a downcycle market for standardized form factor of battery packs to be used where the weight / capacity equation is not critical as it is in vehicles. There are numerous such applications, grid storage and home energy systems are the most obvious.
U can buy a whole Chinese Ev for price of battery replacement of a Tesla . Lol