NOTE: One thing I forgot to mention in the video is that I was doing only 1 entry per player, so if a player won multiple DPOYs, only the his most impressive DPOY would be eligible for the list. What was the most impressive DPOY season you’ve ever seen?
Not the most impressive but Rudy Gobert gets too much disrespect considering he’s a good enough defender to make teams with multiple cones on D top defensive teams.
This is a little off topic Jonny but regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that need to be addressed in your follow up video... The footage from those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and placed them accordingly. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited. The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column. Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
@@theresak2024 Lol that's what I said on his analysis. All 15 of those "possible stls" were deflections made by MJ regardless, per Jonny own definition of a steal, new rules or not. It was clear the definition of a stl & blk differed, on top of having to keep track of in-game occurrences in real time without the advent of replay technology & the analyzation of multiple angles in slowed time. The man movements were too fast, & given him being a two-guard decided as long as his defensive stop resulted in a change of possession, was more than likely a steal, & they misplaced (not inflated) it 15x when it actually a block, not accounting for Mj's contesting / blocking capabilities at 6'5
I'm surprised you didn't include Rudy Gobert here given how much better modern NBA offenses are Rudy's defensive abilities in the hardest era of NBA so far should be commended.
Aye brother. Can you do a top 10 Most Impressive Non-DPOY, Non-MVP seasons? Think that’d be awesome specially for some MVP caliber players that are frankly overshadowed and forgotten.
Imagine if Wilt, Bill and Nate Thurmond had blocks/steals tracked in their prime. People forget that an aging Nate Thurmond already got a quadruple double the first year they tracked blocks and steals
We don't need to imagine. We already know Wilt would hold all those records too then we would see some Russell and the rest. Just like we know their play would be deminshed by idiots claiming everyone was under 6 foot. 😂😂
@@jasonnelson6624Thats totally debatable. There was no 3 pt line in their era thats partly why some of the #s they posted cant be touched. Not to mention playing 45+ minutes a game. nobody in later eras logs the minutes per game they did.
@@FuShengAlex how? How is any shot different? A missed 2 is the same as a 3. The reason why some of the number won't be seen is because of how the game is officiated. Players today are allowed to travel there allowed to make contact and push their way to get dunks or close range shots. In older eras they were stuck shooting mid range and shots that were beyond the 3 point line. Steph isn't the 1st half court shooter. They been shooting and making them since the 60's just for 2 points.
@@FuShengAlex one question. Since they added the 3pt shot shouldn't they be breaking scoring records all the time? Which they did we saw all the older era fall. But how come Wilt is still the holder of something like 70 records today? Him and Russell both were elite Olympic level jumpers Russell held I think the high jump record. Im still waiting for a 7 footer to run a sub par 5 second 40 yard dash like Wilt did at 4.5. Plus a 7 footer that can run all day everyday. He's getting records any era. Hell they had to ban free throw dunks because of him. Who else could dunk behind the line without a run up? No one has so far it's been huge when a running ft dunk gets done specially in game like Dr. J did but again running and his foot was over the line like Jordan's. My point is too much gets put on their era's and not the athletic freaks some were like Wilt.
I always find it crazy that Hakeem did not win DPOTY the season he had 200blks and 200stls as he's the only player to ever do this. On top of totaling like 1000+ rebs that season to boot.
Yeah, I did another list of the greatest Non-DPOY seasons, and Hakeem was the Top spot there too. I love Rodman, but the 1990 DPOY is among the greatest robberies in NBA History. Social media would have exploded if it existed back then.
When Nolan Ryan killed the record for strikeouts, he didn’t win the Cy Young either. The success or improvement of your team also helps your cause for DPOTY
Because you can use your eyes, not just stats...Rodman was guarding Jordan Magic, bird, barkley..... Dude was a beast... And the rockets 41-41 Detroit 59-23 best defense on the league... That obviously played a part... In the 90s there was more competition than ever for dpoy, Rodman hakeem Robinson pippen Payton dikembe Jordan Ewing.... I think that's why some 90s players get underrated
@@reimixo Lol. My eyes tell me Hakeem lead the league in rebounding, avg 2.5x the steals Rodman did and 5x more blks as well as lead him in every adv def stats ... so you may wanna get those eyes checked chief. Rodman also wasn't guarding a few of the guys you mentioned namely Barkley and Jordan as at the time he was playing SF. For example Jordan was Dumars assignment. Hakeem was a better defender while being leagues ahead on offense to boot. Sure, Detroit was better but that was due to Dumars, Isiah, Laimbeer and Vinny. Not just Rodman. This was a case of them giving it to the defender on the better team because Rodman did not lead Hakeem IN ANY DEFENSIVE METRIC as well as played against a murder's row of talent at the 5 spot as well
@@jonnyarnett Your videos, and your conclusions, often show that you aren’t biased, when breaking down the players, footage and stats. You actually come up with some the best ways, to compare a lot of new guys, with the older players, especially the 80’s and 90’s guys.
I’m putting MJ’s ‘88 season over A. Rob, but agree w/ this list in general. Would love for the NBA’s archives to go back & track the stats from past great players b4 these stats were attributed
I think it must be credited that a player has to carry the load offensively and still be the best defensively. For Jordan to avg 35 ppg and still be the dpoty is remarkable. Same for the 2 way stars on this list like Hakeem and Robinson
Hakeem is the Michael Jordan of Centers. If he was born American, he'd probably have that flair and marketability too, but even so MJ would copy the dream shake himself. They are the two best two way superstars of all time IMO. Of all the top 25 players of all time, Hakeem arguably had the least help through his best years. Ralph was there early for a time and they were well on their way, but then he spent his athletic prime and best years with nada. Then declining Drexler came along by the time Hakeem was 32/33, but luckily he was already a champion to prove his worth winning with no all star teammate. Then the declining stars tagged along as Hakeem declined himself. I would say prime and best years, Wilt, Hakeem, Admiral, KG, and Chuck are the top 5 of the top 30 with the least help. I also believe the Admiral is extremely underrated and overlooked. Just as i'd love to see Wilt and Russell swap teams. I'd love to see how Duncan would have done having to carry Robinsons 80s and 90s Spurs teams vs those WC teams and how Admiral would have done in Pops era. Likewise KG and Duncan swapped teams.
@@krimezone I do the same, my all time team has 2 fixed players. Michael and Hakeem are not going anywhere and from there the other 3 spots change on how i'd view the team would play off each other, but Mike and Hakeem are versatile. Hakeem can be the 5/4 and 2nd 3 peat Mike can play the 2/3 or 89 Mike can play the 1 even.
C'mon Arnett... JORDAN'S DPOY has to be on this list. For a guard to avg 1.5 blks with at least 2.5-3 steals is ridiculous and has to be recognized! Dream is # 1 and great video as always.
Great video, Jonny! I had a feeling that Hakeem would be first. It's long amazed me how he was so great at stealing the ball. The 4.2 BPG is jaw dropping. So is his 1.8 SPG (particularly given that he's a center). His footwork, athleticism, defense, and scoring were amazing. It was cool to learn more about Alvin Robertson too. I hadn't learned as much about him, but it was awesome to learn more about his defensive abilities. Originally, I was a bit surprised to see Robinson's 91-92 season ranked at #5, but you made valid points about how he played 68 games. So, your ranking made sense to me. Cool video again :) Have a nice day, Jonny!
Johnny, thanks again for another great video. You always have a good balance of recognizing defenders at every position. Curious if you'd ever do a video about the life of Sydney moncrief. Because he's a small market player, I never had the chance to really dig into what he was about on the court. He always seemed to be an excellent defender for a guard. Check me, but I think he's the only guard to win dpoy twice? Any chance you could do a video on him someday? Never mind. I just found a video 9 months ago that you made where you gave him his flowers again well done
Good list. I'm sure some people may ask about Jordans 88 season but you've already gone over how great that season was even with the controversy of the last few months around it. These seasons are just that great. I have a feeling Russell would have a few in the top 10 if the award was around.
Great list! Tough to debate them. I agree that if Admiral played 80-82 games, he could have been #1. The only one who could have knocked out Mourning or Green from the top ten is probably MJ. Olajuwon is probably the best defensive player in NBA history, narrowly above Robinson (for longevity) and Russell (for completeness) among big men as well as Rodman among all-purpose/multi-position defenders. Being the most skilled offensive center, too, Hakeem is the greatest big man ever overall (centers historically more valuable than even the best PF's) with the power to take on Shaq but the finesse to run with David. Dream's dominance and success really overshadowed others who would have otherwise dominated the decades prior or following, including Robinson, Shaq (in the earlier 90's), Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo (defensively). The era of rim protectors fearlessly challenging dunkers has largely died following the 90's and Dwight.
I agree with this list and the honorable mentions. One thing I will say is Marcus Camby's defensive excellence during his Denver Nuggets days gets completely overlooked and is forgotten about.
Honestly for me The Dream might be the most overlooked superstar with his credentials there has ever been . That man was other worldly . When you make Shaq look helpless defensively in his prime your a stud, but his dismantling of Robinson and Ewing in the same playoffs?? Legendary
How can a superstar be overlooked ? Also Hakeem has 2 NBA titles and 2 MVP trophies. Ask anyone to make a list of top 5 centers ever and he's likely to make the cut 99% of the time. He's not overlooked.
If you go by the eye test, Jordan is the best perimeter defender ever, and maybe Olajuwon is the best interior defender. Just look at how quick and skilled they were on the defensive end.
My top two and my greatest fantasy duo ever. Amazing they could have played their career together along with Drexler. Rockets turned down Blazers offer of #2 pick and Clyde Drexler for Ralph Sampson. The pick likely would have been Jordan or Chuck and remember Clyde was coming off the bench his rookie year so it was no guarantee they skip MJ just bc Clyde came in the trade. Clyde could play big PG or SF at the time as Clyde was a fucking specimen in his early days. He was jacked-idk why he lost so much muscle after the late 80s and he looked like he was in his 40s by the time he turned 30 lol.
Sometimes I see videos like these and wonder how accurate are they. Just so many great players that it's like playing with fire, no matter who you choose it's like you'll get burned no matter what.
Excellent! I’m glad it came out that order. The Dream is surely the greatest DPOY imo. He’s so quick he can steal a ball from anyone and I’ve always said his lateral quickness is unmatched. I wish Robinson was higher up but I understand he missed games. Olajuwon & Robinson are the only two modern players to reach quadruple doubles, of the 4 total players.
Imagine if Robertson had been old enough to play on the wing opposite the Iceman, or young enough to lob the ball in to the Admiral. Dog was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Great video! Is there a way you can do a video explaining how Magic made the 92 All Star game and 92 Olympics team despite having a retired/inactive player status?
I feel like the "how" is pretty straightforward: The All-Star Game was entirely based on fan ballot at the time, Magic was one of the most beloved players in the world, and he had only JUST retired under circumstances that were simultaneously tragic, but did not impede him from actually participating. While the 1992 Olympics were the first to ALLOW NBA players, there was no legal requirement that the players needed to be active on pro rosters. Now, the "why" is perhaps more interesting/offers more material for a video. Was he one of the best 2-3 PGs in the world in 1992, even accounting for the year off of professional play? Kinda hard to gauge, since the only sample size we have is the All-Star exhibition game and the Dream Team beating up on far inferior opponents (and stories/incomplete footage of their scrimmages against each other/college teams). But I'd say, based on him still being absolutely elite in the '91 season, and a combination of the eye test and stats in his 1992 games, he certainly appeared to belong. He may not have been able to play at his 100%, peak form, but I think people who suggest he was past his prime/washed, exaggerate just how significant the decline was. Again, some of this is hard to definitively prove just because of how limited the available data is for 1992 Magic. Also, particularly when considering the Dream Team and the unprecedented collection of star power and egos, Magic was a great asset for team chemistry. He was always known to make teammates better, and maintained good relationships with other members of the league as well. But that wasn't at the cost of competitive edge: Just check out any footage of him discussing the time he and Jordan each captained half of the Dream Team against each other...even being out of the league for a year and with no apparent plan to return, he was INTENT on winning.
@@Rodanguirus thanks for the throughout explanation. I was just curious because I thought you had to have an active status for that particular season to make the all star game and I recall Magic retiring just a few weeks before the start of the 91-92 season. Maybe his status was still active since he most likely would’ve been in training camp at that point which could’ve been enough to still have his name active within the ballots. And your explanation makes total especially since because Magic was retired from the NBA but not playing basketball in its purity which meant he could’ve played in other leagues if he wanted to during that time period.
I value versatility on defense which is why I think Giannis is underrated as a defender. He can play passing lanes, pick pockets, be the main rim protector, help side defender, shut down the paint and perimeter, and has the speed and strength to guard every position
Please make the same video, but make it about the Most Improved Player award. I'm interested in hearing about underrated breakout seasons from some underrated players throughout NBA history
Hakeem is the best defender, ever. No. 1 in blocks and top 10 in steals. As a center. BTW, Hakeem is the only (!!!) hall of famer in NBA history to win a championship without having another hall of famer on the team. Yes, that is correct, the only player in 70+ seasons. That applies of course to the 94’ rockets but NOT the 95’ team that had Drexler.
People often take that accomplishment by Olajuwon in 1994 lightly. As we see a lot of great HOFs won rings cause they had another HOF or all-star. LeBron, Steph, Kareem, Kobe, Bill Russell, Rodman, Shaq, everyone.
I'd love to see a video about best defensive seasons that didn't win DPOY. For example, Tim Duncan never won DPOY, yet is arguably the best defensive player of all time. Likewise, I think Wemby should have won DPOY last year. It would be cool to see how those stack up to the seasons in this video
Zo was just unlucky to play in the same era as Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, The Admiral, and Patrick Ewing. Zo was definitely the next best center of the 90s after those 4.
How would your list defer from mine. IT WOULDNT, I was happy to see the dream at number 1. I love this channel because you give praise to every player and you explain each take with evidence.
Rodman during his old days but Jordan still the greatest defensive player due to his ability to blocks big men and his steals were so spectacular that converted into points
Gary Payton in 1996 was an honorable mention but deserves top ten. His dominance directly resulted in the Sonics reaching the Finals, which is something that I don’t think that anyone else on the list can say outside of Rodman. He also helped hold Jordan to his worst Finals performance. Where’s the love for The Glove?
I would have thought MJ would have made the list but after watching your vid about that season, there is an asterisk that takes him out. I’m looking forward to the vid where you look at others to see if it was a widespread thing. I know that has to be time consuming. I’m with you with Dream at number 1. I think he is the greatest defensive player of all time and I think he should even be in the goat debate.
There is no asterisk next to Jordan's DPOY award and his 1987/88 season absolutely should have made this Top 10 DPOY list. As you mentioned, Jonny recently released a video dissecting 10 of Jordan's home games from his DPOY season (6 of these were games referenced in Tom Haberstroh's recent Article), however, unlike Tom Haberstroh, Jonny actually released the game footage alongside his breakdown. The footage from these 10 games revealed that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited and his steals appeared to be over credited, by a very similar number. Over the course of the 10 games, there were 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, causing a deflection...Jonny labelled these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but discovered that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of these games. Ask yourself this question...If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, he UNDOUBTEDLY would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. Surprisingly though, despite discovering this surplus of blocks which MJ was not credited with, Jonny still concludes at the end of the video that his steals were intentionally inflated! This is where Jonny lost me and countless other viewers because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals...the Statistician clearly assessed and categorised those 15 'possible blocks' as STEALS! It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited. The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals or should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection...this is not consistent with how Jonny or Haberstroh analysed MJ's steals during their analysis. Countless people in the comment section of Jonny's video made the very same observation, that steals were interpreted differently in the 80's/90's, rendering Jonny's assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in Jonny's video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column. Finally, it's important to note, even if Jonny is correct and his research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think Jonny did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work he put into it but there is little doubt that his analysis of the steals was inaccurate. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games. EDIT: Jonny has since acknowledged that his breakdown of Jordan's steals in his original video was indeed flawed and has vowed to release a follow up video.
Rodman was an absolute beast on defense. He could shut down Shaq one night and John Stockton the next night. We are talking Shaq in his prime and any player. His positioning, footwork and hustle were out of this world.
This video would really be Wilt and Bill but without stats and accolades its understandable to omit. As with any list I'm just glad Robinson got some love.
yeah and they had shorter seasons. So the comparisons would be harder to make. It like comparing the teams of the 80 and early 90. To teams and players of today. It's a different game and rulers.
David Robinson by himself is a better defender than both Wilt and Russell, I would even argue Alonzo Mourning over them too considering he was guarding players like Shaq, Robinson and Olajuwon effectively
@@hakeemolajuwon4352 60s and the 90s are the toughest decades to be a Center. I love me some Robinson but I can't put him or Hakeem over dudes who avg triple doubles if blocks were counted. But since its a modern game yeah sure. Hakeem and Robinson are my fav modern defenders.
@@andrewcook1246 the 60s are nowhere near as tough as the 90s, and both Robinson and Olajuwon would easily average far better numbers than Wilt and Russell
@@hakeemolajuwon4352 Nate, Walt, Elvin, Russell, Wilt + young Kareem vs Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq and Ewing? Seems pretty one sided since the 60s feature the only dudes who were avg 20pts/20rebs for a season, double digit shot blocking and who played in a time where you could not run over your opponent or travel. I got love for the 90s Centers and Centers in general who I believe will akways be the most imoortsnt position and I'm sticking with the pillars. Kareem, Bill and Russell are the 3 highest ranking Centers in every poll and all 3 are considered top 10 players ever.
My problem with Draymond being on this list is, why he deserved to be DPOY that year, he had help in many defensive areas on that team that others on this list didn't. KD lead the team in blocks and rebounds, Steph was a close 2nd in steals to Dray, and you had Klay and Iggy to guard the tougher offensive wings. Everyone else on this list was dominate in either blocks, rebounds, steals, or a combo of those...but I see Draymond's DPOY as the best interior defender for a very good defensive team at the time. So I feel MJ's 88 season or GP 96 season could replace Dray on this list. Just IMO.
What is also impressive about the Dream is that him being a practicing Muslim, he played all 82 and fasted when the holy month of Ramadan came around. Special player indeed
ITS MY FAULT AND IM SORRY lmao we haven't forgotten either 😂 I have to get a PS5, and im getting one this month, so before the summer ends we'll begin the simulation that I can promise
Not throwing an Honorable mention KG or Tim Duncan’s way is understandable considering they either were out of their prime when they won or didn’t win, but 02 Timmy and 04 KG are two of the best defensive seasons of all time
@jonnyarnett Regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks Jonny, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that need to be addressed in your follow up video... The footage from those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and placed them accordingly. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited. The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column. Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
It's a shame there weren't DPOY's before the 80's because Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, and Bill Walton would have to be top 10 for sure
Most of the people reading this comment are probably too young, but the best season I've ever seen a player playing defense was an older Wilt Chamberlain nearing the end of his career in 1972, the year the Lakers won 69 games, 33 in a row, and won the chip. Wilt was dominant that year and at the request of ex-Celtic and new head coach Bill Sharman, Wilt changed his game and played more of a Bill Russell style game. Wilt emphasized defense, shutting down the paint, and dominating the boards, which he did. That team was lead by Wilt and Jerry West, who was also an all-NBA defender. I should also mention the great Bill Russell who was cat quick on defense, had off the charts athletic ability, and Russell was a great shot blocker/rebounder. Either Russell or Wilt could easily be 1 or 2 on this list because they were dominant on the defensive end of the court.
@@inefekt While what you say may be the case, the best defensive players of the year, even if it was unofficial, was Russell and Chamberlain...in my opinion.
Not yet. My editor is going to run the simulation from his end, and he wanted to upgrade to a PS5 first. lol. He just texted me yesterday and said he's just about financially ready to pull the trigger on the PS5, so we should start recording soon!
Because there were some elite defenders, I don’t knock players who didn’t win DPOY. I do knock players who were supposedly one of the best to ever play when they don’t make All nba defense teams. Duncan never won DPOY but he played defense great enough to be on All Defensive Teams yearly.
Ben Wallace is the greatest defense player for a 6 year stretch. There was no one more dominant and intimidating on the defensively. I believe voter figure may have cost him from win a fith DPOY award
Alvin is greater than you realize. He has the record for most steals per game, averaging 2.71 steals his career. And only player with 300+ steals in a season. The only non-center who made quadruple double of the 4 players who did.
I feel like Jonny is overstating Rodman's contribution to the Pistons when he said their defensive prowess was largely due to him. They were an elite defensive team before Rodman was a major factor. Also, it had to be helpful to a perimeter defender, knowing that your assignment probably wouldnt shoot and eould get slammed by endless huge Detroit bodies if they drive past you. On the other hand, Jazz were too defensive team for years, snd I know it wasnt stockton, malone or bailey!
Question- do you guys feel that defensive greats are overlooked when talking about all time rankings? Aside from Hakeem and Robinson you’d be hard pressed to include anyone else in the Top 25 list of all time (even though maybe we should)
That's a great question, with some pretty odd preface. Hakeem and Robinson are elite offensive players, so they aren't good examples in your own scenario. Similar two-way players like that include Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain and Tim Duncan. And those are just top-10 players, and 3 of them are centers. Bill Russell is a lock on the average top-10 list. He's just about the only example of a player on the top-10 list, who was far better on the defense than on the offense. So yes, defense-first players are generally left outside the top-10, or the top-25. And yes, they should get more respect. I'd say Rajon Rondo and Ben Wallace should be given consideration making the top-25 list, scoring less than 10 points per game. Aside from those, there isn't many clearly defense-first players worth the consideration. The reason great defenders are disrespected, is because the league front office has decided to try to market high-scoring players playing in a high-scoring league. The referees are instructed to favor the players on the offense over the defenders, even though the rulebook states otherwise. However, there's a ton of different basketball statistics, and my take is that the same effort given on defense just doesn't have the same impact on winning, than the same effort given on offense. The game is played 5v5 and there's only one basketball. It's harder for one great defender to stop the whole opposing team, than one great offensive player to dominate the game. All regular season MVP award winners are great offensive players, without exceptions. Some are also great defenders, but there seems to be zero requirement for defense to win the MVP. Some say that's what the defensive player of the year award is for. But that's far from being as esteemed as the MVP trophy. This affects the top-25 conversation. So, yes, great defensive players deserve more respect on the all time list. But, no, the top-25 list shouldn't be mostly defense-first players.
The nba has been actively trying their best to sabotage Dwight’s legacy. I refuse to let them act like that man wasn’t one of the best players of all time
He came 2nd in the MVP-race in 2011, and came close to winning a ring as the main guy but didn't. Either accomplishment would've improved his position on the average all time list. But I don't think he was as good as you think. He had similarities with Shaq, but wasn't quite as good. Dwight did only a tad more on defense, while Shaq did more on offense. I don't think Dwight deserved 3 defensive player of the year awards. Not sure if he deserved any. I'd say Kevin Garnett should've won 1 or 2 of those.
NOTE: One thing I forgot to mention in the video is that I was doing only 1 entry per player, so if a player won multiple DPOYs, only the his most impressive DPOY would be eligible for the list.
What was the most impressive DPOY season you’ve ever seen?
Not the most impressive but Rudy Gobert gets too much disrespect considering he’s a good enough defender to make teams with multiple cones on D top defensive teams.
This is a little off topic Jonny but regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that need to be addressed in your follow up video...
The footage from those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and placed them accordingly. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited.
The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column.
Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
@@theresak2024 Lol that's what I said on his analysis. All 15 of those "possible stls" were deflections made by MJ regardless, per Jonny own definition of a steal, new rules or not. It was clear the definition of a stl & blk differed, on top of having to keep track of in-game occurrences in real time without the advent of replay technology & the analyzation of multiple angles in slowed time. The man movements were too fast, & given him being a two-guard decided as long as his defensive stop resulted in a change of possession, was more than likely a steal, & they misplaced (not inflated) it 15x when it actually a block, not accounting for Mj's contesting / blocking capabilities at 6'5
I'm surprised you didn't include Rudy Gobert here given how much better modern NBA offenses are Rudy's defensive abilities in the hardest era of NBA so far should be commended.
Aye brother. Can you do a top 10 Most Impressive Non-DPOY, Non-MVP seasons? Think that’d be awesome specially for some MVP caliber players that are frankly overshadowed and forgotten.
Imagine if Wilt, Bill and Nate Thurmond had blocks/steals tracked in their prime. People forget that an aging Nate Thurmond already got a quadruple double the first year they tracked blocks and steals
I always think about this too.
We don't need to imagine. We already know Wilt would hold all those records too then we would see some Russell and the rest. Just like we know their play would be deminshed by idiots claiming everyone was under 6 foot. 😂😂
@@jasonnelson6624Thats totally debatable. There was no 3 pt line in their era thats partly why some of the #s they posted cant be touched.
Not to mention playing 45+ minutes a game. nobody in later eras logs the minutes per game they did.
@@FuShengAlex how? How is any shot different? A missed 2 is the same as a 3. The reason why some of the number won't be seen is because of how the game is officiated. Players today are allowed to travel there allowed to make contact and push their way to get dunks or close range shots. In older eras they were stuck shooting mid range and shots that were beyond the 3 point line. Steph isn't the 1st half court shooter. They been shooting and making them since the 60's just for 2 points.
@@FuShengAlex one question. Since they added the 3pt shot shouldn't they be breaking scoring records all the time? Which they did we saw all the older era fall. But how come Wilt is still the holder of something like 70 records today? Him and Russell both were elite Olympic level jumpers Russell held I think the high jump record. Im still waiting for a 7 footer to run a sub par 5 second 40 yard dash like Wilt did at 4.5. Plus a 7 footer that can run all day everyday. He's getting records any era. Hell they had to ban free throw dunks because of him. Who else could dunk behind the line without a run up? No one has so far it's been huge when a running ft dunk gets done specially in game like Dr. J did but again running and his foot was over the line like Jordan's. My point is too much gets put on their era's and not the athletic freaks some were like Wilt.
next year we finna talk about wemby like this
Agreed!!!
I always find it crazy that Hakeem did not win DPOTY the season he had 200blks and 200stls as he's the only player to ever do this. On top of totaling like 1000+ rebs that season to boot.
Yeah, I did another list of the greatest Non-DPOY seasons, and Hakeem was the Top spot there too. I love Rodman, but the 1990 DPOY is among the greatest robberies in NBA History. Social media would have exploded if it existed back then.
When Nolan Ryan killed the record for strikeouts, he didn’t win the Cy Young either. The success or improvement of your team also helps your cause for DPOTY
Because you can use your eyes, not just stats...Rodman was guarding Jordan Magic, bird, barkley..... Dude was a beast... And the rockets 41-41 Detroit 59-23 best defense on the league... That obviously played a part... In the 90s there was more competition than ever for dpoy, Rodman hakeem Robinson pippen Payton dikembe Jordan Ewing.... I think that's why some 90s players get underrated
@@reimixo Lol. My eyes tell me Hakeem lead the league in rebounding, avg 2.5x the steals Rodman did and 5x more blks as well as lead him in every adv def stats
... so you may wanna get those eyes checked chief. Rodman also wasn't guarding a few of the guys you mentioned namely Barkley and Jordan as at the time he was playing SF. For example Jordan was Dumars assignment. Hakeem was a better defender while being leagues ahead on offense to boot.
Sure, Detroit was better but that was due to Dumars, Isiah, Laimbeer and Vinny. Not just Rodman. This was a case of them giving it to the defender on the better team because Rodman did not lead Hakeem IN ANY DEFENSIVE METRIC as well as played against a murder's row of talent at the 5 spot as well
@@reimixo Wrong season bro. Hakeem had 200+ steals & blocks once in his career, 1988/89. That season Eaton was named DPOY, not Rodman.
This is why Jonny is the best basketball RUclipsr on this app
..this is RUclips. What "app"?
Arnett is probably the most unbiased NBA youtuber there is
My fondness of Kobe is a little bold sometimes, but I do appreciate that! 😂
I concur.
@@jonnyarnett
Your videos, and your conclusions, often show that you aren’t biased, when breaking down the players, footage and stats.
You actually come up with some the best ways, to compare a lot of new guys, with the older players, especially the 80’s and 90’s guys.
@@jonnyarnettI think your Bias towards the Lakers is higher than the Kobe Bias, both not being big.
Wilson sy deserve more love
I’m putting MJ’s ‘88 season over A. Rob, but agree w/ this list in general. Would love for the NBA’s archives to go back & track the stats from past great players b4 these stats were attributed
Yeah I was also surprised to see Alvin over MJ with 1,6 blocks as a guard lol
I think it must be credited that a player has to carry the load offensively and still be the best defensively. For Jordan to avg 35 ppg and still be the dpoty is remarkable. Same for the 2 way stars on this list like Hakeem and Robinson
@@HailKingCeezer 100% agree. I was disappointed to see Admiral s season at 5 spot. Definitely top 2 at worst in my book
Probably not enough footage
Good content! Hakeem Olajuwon's defense was on different level.
To Me Hakeem Is The Best Center All Time. And Greatest Defender Of All Time. Also Im Biased But I Believe This As Fact.
Hakeem is the Michael Jordan of Centers. If he was born American, he'd probably have that flair and marketability too, but even so MJ would copy the dream shake himself. They are the two best two way superstars of all time IMO. Of all the top 25 players of all time, Hakeem arguably had the least help through his best years. Ralph was there early for a time and they were well on their way, but then he spent his athletic prime and best years with nada. Then declining Drexler came along by the time Hakeem was 32/33, but luckily he was already a champion to prove his worth winning with no all star teammate. Then the declining stars tagged along as Hakeem declined himself.
I would say prime and best years, Wilt, Hakeem, Admiral, KG, and Chuck are the top 5 of the top 30 with the least help.
I also believe the Admiral is extremely underrated and overlooked. Just as i'd love to see Wilt and Russell swap teams. I'd love to see how Duncan would have done having to carry Robinsons 80s and 90s Spurs teams vs those WC teams and how Admiral would have done in Pops era. Likewise KG and Duncan swapped teams.
He is my number 2 player all time
All time team tho I am taking Wilt as my center and moving Hakeem to Power Forward
@@krimezone I do the same, my all time team has 2 fixed players. Michael and Hakeem are not going anywhere and from there the other 3 spots change on how i'd view the team would play off each other, but Mike and Hakeem are versatile. Hakeem can be the 5/4 and 2nd 3 peat Mike can play the 2/3 or 89 Mike can play the 1 even.
Arnett must be at the gun range with all these bangers great video
C'mon Arnett... JORDAN'S DPOY has to be on this list. For a guard to avg 1.5 blks with at least 2.5-3 steals is ridiculous and has to be recognized! Dream is # 1 and great video as always.
nah, he doesn’t belong on this list, i’d even have KG in 08 and rudy in 18 over him
he might not even by top 20 if we’re talking compared to height then sure but as a raw defender not top 20
I think the two way impact is impressive, but I think that Gary Payton’s dpoy are more impressive guard dpoys
Great video, Jonny! I had a feeling that Hakeem would be first. It's long amazed me how he was so great at stealing the ball. The 4.2 BPG is jaw dropping. So is his 1.8 SPG (particularly given that he's a center). His footwork, athleticism, defense, and scoring were amazing.
It was cool to learn more about Alvin Robertson too. I hadn't learned as much about him, but it was awesome to learn more about his defensive abilities.
Originally, I was a bit surprised to see Robinson's 91-92 season ranked at #5, but you made valid points about how he played 68 games. So, your ranking made sense to me.
Cool video again :) Have a nice day, Jonny!
Johnny, thanks again for another great video. You always have a good balance of recognizing defenders at every position. Curious if you'd ever do a video about the life of Sydney moncrief. Because he's a small market player, I never had the chance to really dig into what he was about on the court. He always seemed to be an excellent defender for a guard. Check me, but I think he's the only guard to win dpoy twice? Any chance you could do a video on him someday?
Never mind. I just found a video 9 months ago that you made where you gave him his flowers again well done
Good list. I'm sure some people may ask about Jordans 88 season but you've already gone over how great that season was even with the controversy of the last few months around it. These seasons are just that great. I have a feeling Russell would have a few in the top 10 if the award was around.
Not if the video is one entry per player like this one.
Great list! Tough to debate them. I agree that if Admiral played 80-82 games, he could have been #1. The only one who could have knocked out Mourning or Green from the top ten is probably MJ.
Olajuwon is probably the best defensive player in NBA history, narrowly above Robinson (for longevity) and Russell (for completeness) among big men as well as Rodman among all-purpose/multi-position defenders. Being the most skilled offensive center, too, Hakeem is the greatest big man ever overall (centers historically more valuable than even the best PF's) with the power to take on Shaq but the finesse to run with David. Dream's dominance and success really overshadowed others who would have otherwise dominated the decades prior or following, including Robinson, Shaq (in the earlier 90's), Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo (defensively). The era of rim protectors fearlessly challenging dunkers has largely died following the 90's and Dwight.
I agree with this list and the honorable mentions. One thing I will say is Marcus Camby's defensive excellence during his Denver Nuggets days gets completely overlooked and is forgotten about.
6:43 The worm got about four tips on that possession. I wonder if he was credited with four rebounds
Honestly for me The Dream might be the most overlooked superstar with his credentials there has ever been . That man was other worldly . When you make Shaq look helpless defensively in his prime your a stud, but his dismantling of Robinson and Ewing in the same playoffs?? Legendary
It was actually MVP David Robinson and scoring champ Shaq that Olajuwon dominated in only 10 games to repeat as champion
How can a superstar be overlooked ? Also Hakeem has 2 NBA titles and 2 MVP trophies. Ask anyone to make a list of top 5 centers ever and he's likely to make the cut 99% of the time. He's not overlooked.
Ben Wallace made me LOVE defense
You're saying Ben Wallace made you love D? Hm.
If you go by the eye test, Jordan is the best perimeter defender ever, and maybe Olajuwon is the best interior defender. Just look at how quick and skilled they were on the defensive end.
Yup
My top two and my greatest fantasy duo ever. Amazing they could have played their career together along with Drexler. Rockets turned down Blazers offer of #2 pick and Clyde Drexler for Ralph Sampson. The pick likely would have been Jordan or Chuck and remember Clyde was coming off the bench his rookie year so it was no guarantee they skip MJ just bc Clyde came in the trade. Clyde could play big PG or SF at the time as Clyde was a fucking specimen in his early days. He was jacked-idk why he lost so much muscle after the late 80s and he looked like he was in his 40s by the time he turned 30 lol.
I never saw jordan as better than Gary Payton at permiter defense
Joe Dumars
no he’s not 😂
Do top ten most clutch seasons next! Love the vids! 👍🏿
Sometimes I see videos like these and wonder how accurate are they. Just so many great players that it's like playing with fire, no matter who you choose it's like you'll get burned no matter what.
I’ve put my All-Time starters in many other videos:
AIR GOAT(Team Captain)
MAGIC
BIRD
RODMAN
DREAM
Excellent! I’m glad it came out that order. The Dream is surely the greatest DPOY imo. He’s so quick he can steal a ball from anyone and I’ve always said his lateral quickness is unmatched. I wish Robinson was higher up but I understand he missed games. Olajuwon & Robinson are the only two modern players to reach quadruple doubles, of the 4 total players.
Thank you for shouting out Alonzo
Imagine if Robertson had been old enough to play on the wing opposite the Iceman, or young enough to lob the ball in to the Admiral.
Dog was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Great video! Is there a way you can do a video explaining how Magic made the 92 All Star game and 92 Olympics team despite having a retired/inactive player status?
I feel like the "how" is pretty straightforward: The All-Star Game was entirely based on fan ballot at the time, Magic was one of the most beloved players in the world, and he had only JUST retired under circumstances that were simultaneously tragic, but did not impede him from actually participating.
While the 1992 Olympics were the first to ALLOW NBA players, there was no legal requirement that the players needed to be active on pro rosters.
Now, the "why" is perhaps more interesting/offers more material for a video. Was he one of the best 2-3 PGs in the world in 1992, even accounting for the year off of professional play? Kinda hard to gauge, since the only sample size we have is the All-Star exhibition game and the Dream Team beating up on far inferior opponents (and stories/incomplete footage of their scrimmages against each other/college teams). But I'd say, based on him still being absolutely elite in the '91 season, and a combination of the eye test and stats in his 1992 games, he certainly appeared to belong. He may not have been able to play at his 100%, peak form, but I think people who suggest he was past his prime/washed, exaggerate just how significant the decline was. Again, some of this is hard to definitively prove just because of how limited the available data is for 1992 Magic.
Also, particularly when considering the Dream Team and the unprecedented collection of star power and egos, Magic was a great asset for team chemistry. He was always known to make teammates better, and maintained good relationships with other members of the league as well. But that wasn't at the cost of competitive edge: Just check out any footage of him discussing the time he and Jordan each captained half of the Dream Team against each other...even being out of the league for a year and with no apparent plan to return, he was INTENT on winning.
@@Rodanguirus thanks for the throughout explanation. I was just curious because I thought you had to have an active status for that particular season to make the all star game and I recall Magic retiring just a few weeks before the start of the 91-92 season. Maybe his status was still active since he most likely would’ve been in training camp at that point which could’ve been enough to still have his name active within the ballots. And your explanation makes total especially since because Magic was retired from the NBA but not playing basketball in its purity which meant he could’ve played in other leagues if he wanted to during that time period.
Feel like KG DPOY season should've been mentioned but a great list nonetheless.
I value versatility on defense which is why I think Giannis is underrated as a defender. He can play passing lanes, pick pockets, be the main rim protector, help side defender, shut down the paint and perimeter, and has the speed and strength to guard every position
Please make the same video, but make it about the Most Improved Player award. I'm interested in hearing about underrated breakout seasons from some underrated players throughout NBA history
Hakeem is the best defender, ever. No. 1 in blocks and top 10 in steals. As a center.
BTW, Hakeem is the only (!!!) hall of famer in NBA history to win a championship without having another hall of famer on the team. Yes, that is correct, the only player in 70+ seasons.
That applies of course to the 94’ rockets but NOT the 95’ team that had Drexler.
People often take that accomplishment by Olajuwon in 1994 lightly. As we see a lot of great HOFs won rings cause they had another HOF or all-star. LeBron, Steph, Kareem, Kobe, Bill Russell, Rodman, Shaq, everyone.
KG 2008 season should be here. Best defender against the pick n roll I had seen in my life.
I'd love to see a video about best defensive seasons that didn't win DPOY. For example, Tim Duncan never won DPOY, yet is arguably the best defensive player of all time. Likewise, I think Wemby should have won DPOY last year. It would be cool to see how those stack up to the seasons in this video
The dunk Carter did on mourning is still my personal favorite
Would love for you to do Top 10 Two-Way Forces!
Zo was just unlucky to play in the same era as Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, The Admiral, and Patrick Ewing. Zo was definitely the next best center of the 90s after those 4.
Zo was better than Ewing.
Not tryna be funny but where’s kg? Isn’t he usually regarded as one of the greatest defenders no?
How would your list defer from mine. IT WOULDNT, I was happy to see the dream at number 1. I love this channel because you give praise to every player and you explain each take with evidence.
Rodman during his old days but Jordan still the greatest defensive player due to his ability to blocks big men and his steals were so spectacular that converted into points
Glove is a sleeper (being a point guard and winning dpoy).
With all these defensive dudes out here Draymond dont need no pics.
Gary Payton in 1996 was an honorable mention but deserves top ten. His dominance directly resulted in the Sonics reaching the Finals, which is something that I don’t think that anyone else on the list can say outside of Rodman. He also helped hold Jordan to his worst Finals performance. Where’s the love for The Glove?
WHY is Draymond in the thumbnail for this video??? With these dudes? C'mon Jonny. J/K, great content as always.
I know you're playin', but he was a beast in 2017. lol.
@@jonnyarnett Yeah. For his size, he handled business that season. Can't take that from him.
@@pasigiridude, Draymond forced centers to have skills. He absolutely changed the NBA defensively.
I would have thought MJ would have made the list but after watching your vid about that season, there is an asterisk that takes him out. I’m looking forward to the vid where you look at others to see if it was a widespread thing. I know that has to be time consuming. I’m with you with Dream at number 1. I think he is the greatest defensive player of all time and I think he should even be in the goat debate.
There is no asterisk next to Jordan's DPOY award and his 1987/88 season absolutely should have made this Top 10 DPOY list. As you mentioned, Jonny recently released a video dissecting 10 of Jordan's home games from his DPOY season (6 of these were games referenced in Tom Haberstroh's recent Article), however, unlike Tom Haberstroh, Jonny actually released the game footage alongside his breakdown. The footage from these 10 games revealed that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited and his steals appeared to be over credited, by a very similar number. Over the course of the 10 games, there were 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, causing a deflection...Jonny labelled these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but discovered that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of these games. Ask yourself this question...If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, he UNDOUBTEDLY would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. Surprisingly though, despite discovering this surplus of blocks which MJ was not credited with, Jonny still concludes at the end of the video that his steals were intentionally inflated! This is where Jonny lost me and countless other viewers because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals...the Statistician clearly assessed and categorised those 15 'possible blocks' as STEALS! It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited.
The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals or should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection...this is not consistent with how Jonny or Haberstroh analysed MJ's steals during their analysis. Countless people in the comment section of Jonny's video made the very same observation, that steals were interpreted differently in the 80's/90's, rendering Jonny's assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in Jonny's video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column.
Finally, it's important to note, even if Jonny is correct and his research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think Jonny did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work he put into it but there is little doubt that his analysis of the steals was inaccurate. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
EDIT: Jonny has since acknowledged that his breakdown of Jordan's steals in his original video was indeed flawed and has vowed to release a follow up video.
Rodman was an absolute beast on defense. He could shut down Shaq one night and John Stockton the next night. We are talking Shaq in his prime and any player. His positioning, footwork and hustle were out of this world.
This video would really be Wilt and Bill but without stats and accolades its understandable to omit.
As with any list I'm just glad Robinson got some love.
yeah and they had shorter seasons. So the comparisons would be harder to make. It like comparing the teams of the 80 and early 90. To teams and players of today. It's a different game and rulers.
David Robinson by himself is a better defender than both Wilt and Russell, I would even argue Alonzo Mourning over them too considering he was guarding players like Shaq, Robinson and Olajuwon effectively
@@hakeemolajuwon4352 60s and the 90s are the toughest decades to be a Center. I love me some Robinson but I can't put him or Hakeem over dudes who avg triple doubles if blocks were counted. But since its a modern game yeah sure. Hakeem and Robinson are my fav modern defenders.
@@andrewcook1246 the 60s are nowhere near as tough as the 90s, and both Robinson and Olajuwon would easily average far better numbers than Wilt and Russell
@@hakeemolajuwon4352 Nate, Walt, Elvin, Russell, Wilt + young Kareem vs Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq and Ewing?
Seems pretty one sided since the 60s feature the only dudes who were avg 20pts/20rebs for a season, double digit shot blocking and who played in a time where you could not run over your opponent or travel.
I got love for the 90s Centers and Centers in general who I believe will akways be the most imoortsnt position and I'm sticking with the pillars. Kareem, Bill and Russell are the 3 highest ranking Centers in every poll and all 3 are considered top 10 players ever.
In 135 games recorded of Bill Russell playing he averaged 8. 2 and 8.1 steals
Who recorded these stats?
My problem with Draymond being on this list is, why he deserved to be DPOY that year, he had help in many defensive areas on that team that others on this list didn't. KD lead the team in blocks and rebounds, Steph was a close 2nd in steals to Dray, and you had Klay and Iggy to guard the tougher offensive wings. Everyone else on this list was dominate in either blocks, rebounds, steals, or a combo of those...but I see Draymond's DPOY as the best interior defender for a very good defensive team at the time. So I feel MJ's 88 season or GP 96 season could replace Dray on this list. Just IMO.
What is also impressive about the Dream is that him being a practicing Muslim, he played all 82 and fasted when the holy month of Ramadan came around. Special player indeed
Hey when is the ultimate team 2k sim video coming? I almost forgot all about that
ITS MY FAULT AND IM SORRY lmao we haven't forgotten either 😂 I have to get a PS5, and im getting one this month, so before the summer ends we'll begin the simulation that I can promise
Not throwing an Honorable mention KG or Tim Duncan’s way is understandable considering they either were out of their prime when they won or didn’t win, but 02 Timmy and 04 KG are two of the best defensive seasons of all time
Don't know if youve had this on ur channel but would love to see you make The Most Charismatic players ever
Kevin Garnett 2008 should absolutely be on this list
Kawhi's 2016 campaign should've definitely been on here
Alonzo Mourning is one of the most underrated players all time in my opinion
I like it when you hate some nba teams but still honest on their ratings
🏀
Was MJ 87-88 considered for this list? That season is probably top 15 but i could see an argument for top 10 personally
It was. Just missed out for me. 11-13 range. 2nd highest DPOY among Guards just behind Alvin Robertson.
@jonnyarnett Regarding your recent breakdown of Jordan's DPOY steals and blocks Jonny, you concluded at the end of that video that MJ's blocks were actually UNDER credited but you believe his steals were inflated. Since the release of that video, countless people in your comment section have noted that your conclusion that the steals were inflated simply does not explain the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that you tracked in those 10 games. Additionally, many of your viewers have also pointed to the fact that steals were interpreted differently in that Era, rendering your assessment of MJ's steals using today's rules, inapplicable. I note that you have since acknowledged these observations in your comment section and vowed to release a follow up video. My apologies in advance if my comment is a little lengthy but there are several important factors omitted from your original analysis that need to be addressed in your follow up video...
The footage from those 10 games revealed 15 occasions where Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball, disrupting the offense and causing a deflection, you assessed these deflections as 15 'possible blocks' but noted that the Statistician did NOT credit these 15 blocks to MJ's official block count. That's a crucial discovery, and incidentally, one that Haberstroh completely failed to mention in his article, despite claiming to have analysed 6 of those games. Here is an important question that has not yet been answered... If that Statistician in 1987/88 was purposely inflating Jordan's defensive stats, why would he UNDER credit Jordan's blocks? If his goal truly was to inflate Jordan's defensive stats, there is no question that he would have credited every single one of those 15 'possible blocks' to MJ's block count...but he didn't. However, despite this surplus of blocks, you still conclude at the end of the video that the steals were intentionally inflated! I'm sorry Jonny but I don't understand how you didn't connect the dots here because it's obvious to any rational person that there was no 'gifting' of steals, the Statistician clearly assessed those 15 'possible blocks' as steals and placed them accordingly. It's the most logical explanation for Jordan's block count being UNDER credited.
The question is, was the Stat-keeper correct in categorising those 15 deflections as steals...should they have been labelled as blocks? In order to answer that question, more detailed research needs to be conducted into the rules of that Era and how blocks and steals were consistently interpreted at that time. I watched an old 1992 Bulls regular season game last week and noticed that on 2 separate occasions Jordan got his hand on the opponent's ball in the passing lane, deflecting the ball to two of his teammates and the commentator announced 'another steal for MJ ' on both occasions, indicating that steals were credited to the player causing the deflection, which is not consistent with how you analysed MJ's steals during your original breakdown. Also, something else that wasn't accounted for in your video is the fact that the Statisticians in the 80's didn't have the luxury of relying on instant replay or multiple camera angles, they had to make an assessment in real time, from the sidelines, so it's highly plausible that, from the vantage point of the Statistician, an occasional block may have been mistakenly interpreted as a steal. Either way, logic dictates Jordan's steals were not 'gifted' in those 10 games, the Statistician clearly placed those 15 'possible blocks' in the steals column.
Finally, it's important to note, even if you are correct Jonny and your research into the rules of that Era proves that those 15 deflections should have been assessed as blocks and not steals, that would amount to stat misplacement, NOT stat inflation. There's a very important distinction there. In such case, Jordan's official steals count for those 10 games would indeed need to be reduced by 15, however, his official block count would then need to be INCREASED by 15. So no matter which way you slice it, whether those 15 deflections are placed in the steals column or in the blocks column, it wouldn't change Jordan's overall defensive stats in those 10 games because you would essentially be subtracting 15 from one defensive column and adding 15 to another defensive column, which of course would have zero impact on the validity of MJ's DPOY award. Just to reiterate, I think you did a great job overall on this topic, it's clear how much effort and hard work you put into it but a closer look at those steals is 100% warranted. It just doesn't make sense that a Stat-keeper intent on inflating Jordan's defensive stats would UNDER credit his blocks by 15 over the course of 10 games.
Ah yes, Defensive Pox Blus-Minus, my favorite statistic
It's a shame there weren't DPOY's before the 80's because Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, and Bill Walton would have to be top 10 for sure
Most of the people reading this comment are probably too young, but the best season I've ever seen a player playing defense was an older Wilt Chamberlain nearing the end of his career in 1972, the year the Lakers won 69 games, 33 in a row, and won the chip. Wilt was dominant that year and at the request of ex-Celtic and new head coach Bill Sharman, Wilt changed his game and played more of a Bill Russell style game. Wilt emphasized defense, shutting down the paint, and dominating the boards, which he did. That team was lead by Wilt and Jerry West, who was also an all-NBA defender. I should also mention the great Bill Russell who was cat quick on defense, had off the charts athletic ability, and Russell was a great shot blocker/rebounder. Either Russell or Wilt could easily be 1 or 2 on this list because they were dominant on the defensive end of the court.
Thank you for that comment. I wish I saw those seasons, you brought perspective and eye test.
this video is very specifically about players who WON the DPOY...neither Russell nor Wilt won it, mainly because it didn't exist when they played
@@inefekt While what you say may be the case, the best defensive players of the year, even if it was unofficial, was Russell and Chamberlain...in my opinion.
Hakeem should’ve won many more dpoy. If award was also around in Russell and Wilts day they’d of both won a lot of them.
15 rebs per game is wild for a 6'9 C time Ben wallace
#1 : “I hit them with the LATERAL MOVEMENT!!! 🤓”
I would love to see Mark Eaton try to guard Shaq.
Have a good day!!
Very interesting that you had Bill Russell as the best defender ever on the other clip. But he didn't make TOP TEN HERE ? WHAT
Did you ever do the 2k simulation for the all time team line ups?
Not yet. My editor is going to run the simulation from his end, and he wanted to upgrade to a PS5 first. lol. He just texted me yesterday and said he's just about financially ready to pull the trigger on the PS5, so we should start recording soon!
@@jonnyarnettCan’t wait!
I can confirm this 😂
@@jonnyarnett thats awesome , definitely looking forward to it
7:55💚🟢🟩🐸💵🏀nice throwbks💯
off topic but Bob Lanier is the most underrated player ever.
Not sure about ever, but I think he should have been on the 75 greatest list.
I wonder where Bill Russel would be on the list if we counted his best MVP season.
🍄
Hey Jonny, I shot you an email about the 2k stuff. Not sure if you’ve seen it but wanted to give you a heads up if you don’t check it that often.
Can you make a video of the best two-way player of all time?
Because there were some elite defenders, I don’t knock players who didn’t win DPOY. I do knock players who were supposedly one of the best to ever play when they don’t make All nba defense teams. Duncan never won DPOY but he played defense great enough to be on All Defensive Teams yearly.
It’s crazy the player with the most def all team selections ever never won dpoy award TD21
Can we get a top 10 non dpoy, defensive seasons
I'm surprised Kawhi didn't make the cut
Jonny, Hakeem is one of the best players of all time.
My favorite dpoy is Big Ben Wallace
Did Rodman play the 3 or 4 in the year you referenced in the video?
Ben Wallace is the greatest defense player for a 6 year stretch. There was no one more dominant and intimidating on the defensively. I believe voter figure may have cost him from win a fith DPOY award
Why aint bro at 200k yet?????????
0:48 If you think Alonzo Mourning should be in the Top 75 players, then which player are you TAKING OUT??????
Actually made a video about this topic when they announced the list. Lillard or AD. Either one is fine. Was too premature for both of em.
If wemby won the dpoy he could make the list..3.6 blocks 1.2 steals
To me Big Ben always looked kinda small without his fro. Do we have stats of fro vs no fro?
This proves Jordan got it hard
How can you have Alvin Robertson in the top ten and not MJ? 88, MJ also was the MVP that year with over 200 steals and 128 blocks🤷🏾
Alvin is greater than you realize. He has the record for most steals per game, averaging 2.71 steals his career. And only player with 300+ steals in a season. The only non-center who made quadruple double of the 4 players who did.
I feel like Jonny is overstating Rodman's contribution to the Pistons when he said their defensive prowess was largely due to him.
They were an elite defensive team before Rodman was a major factor.
Also, it had to be helpful to a perimeter defender, knowing that your assignment probably wouldnt shoot and eould get slammed by endless huge Detroit bodies if they drive past you.
On the other hand, Jazz were too defensive team for years, snd I know it wasnt stockton, malone or bailey!
Meanwhile any seasons in bills entire career besides his rookie years puts all these to shame
Question- do you guys feel that defensive greats are overlooked when talking about all time rankings? Aside from Hakeem and Robinson you’d be hard pressed to include anyone else in the Top 25 list of all time (even though maybe we should)
That's a great question, with some pretty odd preface. Hakeem and Robinson are elite offensive players, so they aren't good examples in your own scenario. Similar two-way players like that include Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain and Tim Duncan. And those are just top-10 players, and 3 of them are centers. Bill Russell is a lock on the average top-10 list. He's just about the only example of a player on the top-10 list, who was far better on the defense than on the offense. So yes, defense-first players are generally left outside the top-10, or the top-25. And yes, they should get more respect. I'd say Rajon Rondo and Ben Wallace should be given consideration making the top-25 list, scoring less than 10 points per game. Aside from those, there isn't many clearly defense-first players worth the consideration.
The reason great defenders are disrespected, is because the league front office has decided to try to market high-scoring players playing in a high-scoring league. The referees are instructed to favor the players on the offense over the defenders, even though the rulebook states otherwise.
However, there's a ton of different basketball statistics, and my take is that the same effort given on defense just doesn't have the same impact on winning, than the same effort given on offense. The game is played 5v5 and there's only one basketball. It's harder for one great defender to stop the whole opposing team, than one great offensive player to dominate the game.
All regular season MVP award winners are great offensive players, without exceptions. Some are also great defenders, but there seems to be zero requirement for defense to win the MVP. Some say that's what the defensive player of the year award is for. But that's far from being as esteemed as the MVP trophy. This affects the top-25 conversation.
So, yes, great defensive players deserve more respect on the all time list. But, no, the top-25 list shouldn't be mostly defense-first players.
Compare the combined blocks and steals against fouls.
Hey Jonny are you not putting bill and wilt cause there stats aren’t available?which I understand
It’s not that, it’s just that they TECHNICALLY never won the DPOY. Unfortunately the award didn’t exist until the early 1980s
@@jonnyarnett a dont yell at me😂😂nah tbh I was going to fast should have thought alil more before typing
Joachim Noah anchored arguably the best defense ever or at least the best to never win a chip.
They might've played great defense as a team, but I don't think Noah played defense worthy of being in the top-10 all time.
Pretty much it...
🎉❤
The nba has been actively trying their best to sabotage Dwight’s legacy. I refuse to let them act like that man wasn’t one of the best players of all time
He came 2nd in the MVP-race in 2011, and came close to winning a ring as the main guy but didn't. Either accomplishment would've improved his position on the average all time list.
But I don't think he was as good as you think. He had similarities with Shaq, but wasn't quite as good. Dwight did only a tad more on defense, while Shaq did more on offense. I don't think Dwight deserved 3 defensive player of the year awards. Not sure if he deserved any. I'd say Kevin Garnett should've won 1 or 2 of those.
David roberson #1
Garnett got snubbed imo
How is Hakeems 1989-90 season not better defensively? 4.6 BPG, 2.1 SPG, 14 RPG... i thought those stats were typos but their real