Water Temple. Nah but really that's a really hard pick for me so I'll make this a "choose your own" response. So I'd say my favorite is *insert popular pick here*
You showed it multiple times in the video, the Ancient Cistern! I hope with Skyward Sword HD, more people realize that SS’s dungeons are some of the best in the series.
If you want to know more about Zelda dungeon design, game maker's toolkit has series dedicated to it called "boss keys" where he breaks down different dungeons. Highly recommended
In the draft of the script (available on Patreon) I gave a shout out to Boss Keys. Watched the whole series before making this vid - excellent content!
There is no way my party would be okay with gating... wall of force? Dispel! Doesn't work? Tunnel under it! Doesn't work? Mold Earth! Doesn't work? Burn the dungeon down! I cast annoy DM!
Me I kind of like the idea of "Its not a wall of force, its an actual stone wall that was rendered invisible when you activated its magic.... Dispel magic? Doesn't work? Mold Earth? Doesn't work? Burn the dungeon down? Doesn't work? Maybe you should look through the magic window to see that there is a branching hallway off of the room you can now see into that probably indicates where the actual secrete entrance is.....) Of course I also kind of like the idea of a secrite door that's activated by a key in the wall... (The player looses the key not because it broke, but because it opens the secrete door on the floor directly under their feet leaving it behind in the wall when they drop down....) Could even hint at this by having them find it in a door on the other side of a set off pit trap....
I tried doing a Zelda style dungeon a while back, and it didn't really work, mostly for one reason: they were too high level and had a bunch of spells and magic items that let them circumvent a lot of the dungeon. The gimmick was that they were in a system of partly flooded caverns beneath a river which cintained the ruins of an ancient city of moon worshippers, and they needed to raise the water level using tidal magic nodes on the ceiling to get their boat out of the caves, while also drawing water out of the lower caverns and making them accessible, which they would need to get to other areas. They managed to mind control a bunch of enemies into helping them through to the boss, flying and teleporting up to areas that should have been inaccessible, and only discovered the water level mechanic after they'd already won. They still had a lot of fun, they liked the lore and design and everything, but they didn't interact with the macro puzzle mechanic once. I'm not even mad, I love when they outsmart me, but it made me rethink how I implement dungeon ideas.
I've been looking forward to this video dropping. Reminds me of the overblown pyramid dungeon, I created. The whole thing was a puzzle trap, made of smaller puzzle traps. One room had the falling floor tiles, inspired by Indiana Jones. I (correctly) guessed that once they figured out there would be a room underneath, they would choose to go underneath, to avoid the puzzle. It became just another branching path.
Can we get a more in-depth video or explanation of how to come up with a good macro-scale puzzle or interaction for the whole place? That's always been the most difficult thing for me when trying to design zelda-esque dungeons, because it feels like there's so much you have to plan out to make it good.
Excellent video, as they always are! I especially like the idea of having the key item be tied to the dungeon, where it has a unique use in the dungeon but a more general use outside of it.
Ever since I got really into DnD I've wanted to copy/paste the layout and story of Twilight Princess's Snowpeak Ruins, but give the players complete freedom. They can kill the yetis, they can use their body weight to hold down switches at the cost of the team splitting up. They can skip the entirety of the Ball and Chain by using fire magic or their own weapons to break through the ice. I just think it would be neat to see people go through that dungeon in ways the original game devs never intended.
One thing I enjoyed was ending the session on a riddle or puzzle. Then by the time the next session rolls around, we've been chatting about it the whole time and have probably figured it out.
Really good point about not doing anything which relies on players understanding their position in 3d space. I ran a very successful water temple with rising and lowering water levels, but to make it work i needed to make multiple 3D maps to share with the players
Awesome stuff, I've been wanting to implement multiple Zelda dungeons in my Campaign. I've watched 4 of your D&D videos now and I reckon you deserve more attention as D&D advice channel.
In terms of block puzzles, i have a War Mage who specializes in altering the world. It starts at level 1 with the Mold Earth cantrip; making trenches and higher ground to give my party the edge. Spells like stone shape and wall of force gives you many options to add onto this fortressing strategy.
Thanks for the tips. I have a game where the players are visiting a king's castle in the sky. They then discover that he has many exotic animals in the abandoned castle.
This was a great video! I have definitely fallen into some of the pitfalls of adapting video game dungeons into TTRPGS without realising ! Would love to see a Morrowind version of this as it is my first ever RPG/fantasy!
I concur. This is a good rundown of how to adapt this material to TTRPG's. Balancing the need for magic items, themes, mechanics, and mechanical role within the game. Good work.
I only missed one thing in this video the topic "visual aid support". As you said, movement, especially when going back and forth, can be a hassle in TTRpg, which is not in video games. However, once you consider it, a couple of things change. For instance, I like to use maps and even HeroQuest structure on my Table Top games, which help players to know where they visited and where they did not. In addition, I use the visited chamber dice skipping rule, which allows the players to move freely (without a die) unless a monster is in the room. Have you thought about this approach?
One of the ideas i had heard of when watching another creator talk about zelda-style dungeons: Make the key item an item with a small number of charges, that will limit the number of times the PCs can use it before needing to find a way to charge it... And if its not too powerful, give them an upgraded version with no charge limit. As an example straight from OoT: the Hookshot. It is powerful enough to kill skulltulas without waiting for them to turn their backs, but while its mobility is great, it has a short range. Eventually you get to upgrade it to the Longshot
It's weird that your channel doesn't have more subscribers. My favorite Zelda Dungeon is a hard choice but, I really like the Ancient Cistern from Skyward Sword. Despite all the horrible controls with the Wii Motion+ it is probably my favorite Zelda Game
Excellent video! Really excited to try some of these in my games. How do you go about mapping/keeping track of these more complex state changes in a dungeon? For example, in a water level shifting dungeon, potentially with multiple floors, how on earth do you map that? And how do you keep track of what state the dungeon is currently in and what that effects so you make sure you don't accidentally tell your players the gate is open/closed when it isn't? I've been thinking maybe you keep a sheet of paper with a footnote on each room about how if the Dungeon is in State 1, this gate is open, but State 0 it's closed. Something like that. That way you only need to ever know if the switch is on/off and let your notes take care of the rest. Thanks!
I agree with you that Zelda dungeons need special care when translating to D&D due to player actions and agency (nothing defeats the point of small keys faster than the presence of a rogue in the party). One of the best places to look at how to handle this is actually Metroid. Metroid games tend to allow for sequence breaking in their level design, which can lead to better items (or treasure in D&D), fun and challenging difficulty spikes, or both. Watching speed runs of both series can help prep DMs for potential ways PCs might break their designs (though, it’s still best to expect the unexpected, in the end).
I copied several Water Temple mechanics several times. They worked well, but tbh the players not always understood the task. What I really want to do is a sand temple riddle with light and mirrors, but I never finished designing it. And I also dont know why no other mechanics sticked with my head. 😅
I am actually running a "Zelda dungeon pretty effectively and here's how I'm doing it: 1: All chests that don't have a ton of gold in them have a unique/legendary treasure. Not just a legendary axe or sword but maybe a chair that allows anything balanced on it to be weightless, or a fork that can cast detect poison on food eaten with it as well as it give you resistance to poison food. 2: I still have locked doors and "gated areas, tho I also create "longways" around them, I allow lockpicks but it's a high level lock, and the gates are instead seemingly impassable obstacles that can be attacked however you like. 3: DO NOT have only humanoid enemies in your dungeon! There are things like beholders, displacer beasts, dragons, and many other more interesting things to fight besides man and zombies for fuck sake!! In d&d oftentimes these non humanoid enemies are even smarter than you! 4: allows the players to be able to complete the dungeon without killing anyone or being detected (even the boss!)
The successrate of a Zelda style dungeon depends alot on your players playstyle... My group wouldnt be able to get through much because their approach to dungeons is " If I cant see the solution and I have to look for it, It doesnt exist" :P So current dungeon they are in, there is an unlocked path to the room where the badguy is. but there are locked and hidden doors that lead to treasure.. They have, so far, walked past all locked/Hidden doors, except 2 :P 2 hidden doors they found by pure luck and accident :P
My observations: //Central Hub: arguably not true for the oldest Zelda games/dungeons, or at least not obvious (wh/ to player experience, is the same thing...). This is largely due to each room of the dungeon being the same fixed square size. Also, it's I think that it's worth noting that older Zeldas tend to make players work thru several initial rooms before they actually reach the hub zone //Back-Tracking: the central theories of 'Jaquaying' a dungeon seem relevant to consider here, as well as the ideas of a living dungeon with an ecology, which means a given room/corridor may contain different challenges over repeat visits... //Small-Keys: Another option is to have the small keys be physically part of the door hence why the 'key' is consumed upon use. Another spin is to make the door not really a door, eg. maybe it's a monster that needs to be placated. Zipp touched on that a bit already with his statue idea. And finally, there is the Metroid option, have the key be reusable, but have different colored doors. //Macro-Puzzles which require understanding of the virtual space not being good for groups: This is one point I find myself reaching for the 'respectfully disagree' button... although it might depend on the group in question. Some people will greatly enjoy this, others will grealy not, it becomes a problem when the 2 types of people mix. Also, gotta call out here that most Zelda dungeons can be beaten without that understanding, because they are carefully broken up into multiple discreet sub-puzzles (usually 1 per room). Players can focus & beat each room, without it ever clicking what they are doing on a macro level until the end. //Special Items considered Harmful: First off, I think Zipp's take was a bit colored by the assumption of standard, off-the-shelf 5th edition D&D, where people take it as a given they can have exactly what is listed in the core books. necessarilyCue the arguments on 5e characters being overpowered ;). One way that you could get permanent magic items to work is to go beyond dungeon/adventure design & into CAMPAIGN design; so the magnet glove doesn't just let them crack the dungeon, it expands access to the world at large. Which very notably is how Zelda (& Metroidvanias) do it... Zelda items usually don't have single dungeon utility, they are required to get to subsequent dungeons, access more pieces-of-heart, etc. Obviously that option requires a lot more effort, but it should work, and if used well would be complimentary with higher level abilities... eg. dive into a given dungeon to get an item, OR have the druid learn how to turn into a birb to access the mountain fortress. (& needless to say, it would probably be one hell of a cool campaign)
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What's your favorite Zelda dungeon?
I've only played the first on on NES as a 10 year old, so I'd say the first dungeon in that game as I kept dying before getting to any others.
Water Temple.
Nah but really that's a really hard pick for me so I'll make this a "choose your own" response.
So I'd say my favorite is *insert popular pick here*
You showed it multiple times in the video, the Ancient Cistern!
I hope with Skyward Sword HD, more people realize that SS’s dungeons are some of the best in the series.
Mine is the temple of fire from phantom hourglass, I love a dungeon that's all one big puzzle. Every water temple is a classic though
Favorite is hard, but I loved how spooky the Forest Temple in OoT is. I would love to see a Zelda game with that tone.
If you want to know more about Zelda dungeon design, game maker's toolkit has series dedicated to it called "boss keys" where he breaks down different dungeons. Highly recommended
In the draft of the script (available on Patreon) I gave a shout out to Boss Keys. Watched the whole series before making this vid - excellent content!
There is no way my party would be okay with gating... wall of force? Dispel! Doesn't work? Tunnel under it! Doesn't work? Mold Earth! Doesn't work? Burn the dungeon down! I cast annoy DM!
I feel your pain...my players once spent 2 hours trying to unlock a giant door...when the key was in the next room over!!
Me I kind of like the idea of "Its not a wall of force, its an actual stone wall that was rendered invisible when you activated its magic.... Dispel magic? Doesn't work? Mold Earth? Doesn't work? Burn the dungeon down? Doesn't work? Maybe you should look through the magic window to see that there is a branching hallway off of the room you can now see into that probably indicates where the actual secrete entrance is.....)
Of course I also kind of like the idea of a secrite door that's activated by a key in the wall... (The player looses the key not because it broke, but because it opens the secrete door on the floor directly under their feet leaving it behind in the wall when they drop down....) Could even hint at this by having them find it in a door on the other side of a set off pit trap....
I tried doing a Zelda style dungeon a while back, and it didn't really work, mostly for one reason: they were too high level and had a bunch of spells and magic items that let them circumvent a lot of the dungeon.
The gimmick was that they were in a system of partly flooded caverns beneath a river which cintained the ruins of an ancient city of moon worshippers, and they needed to raise the water level using tidal magic nodes on the ceiling to get their boat out of the caves, while also drawing water out of the lower caverns and making them accessible, which they would need to get to other areas. They managed to mind control a bunch of enemies into helping them through to the boss, flying and teleporting up to areas that should have been inaccessible, and only discovered the water level mechanic after they'd already won.
They still had a lot of fun, they liked the lore and design and everything, but they didn't interact with the macro puzzle mechanic once. I'm not even mad, I love when they outsmart me, but it made me rethink how I implement dungeon ideas.
Oh goodness! My heart goes out to you on that one 😭
I dig that you talked about the differences between ttrpg logic and vg logic
I've been looking forward to this video dropping. Reminds me of the overblown pyramid dungeon, I created. The whole thing was a puzzle trap, made of smaller puzzle traps. One room had the falling floor tiles, inspired by Indiana Jones. I (correctly) guessed that once they figured out there would be a room underneath, they would choose to go underneath, to avoid the puzzle. It became just another branching path.
Can we get a more in-depth video or explanation of how to come up with a good macro-scale puzzle or interaction for the whole place? That's always been the most difficult thing for me when trying to design zelda-esque dungeons, because it feels like there's so much you have to plan out to make it good.
That sound like a good idea for a stream!
The Dominion Rod could be a cool dungeon item. It controls automations in the dungeon, which could even be used in a boss fight
Excellent video, as they always are! I especially like the idea of having the key item be tied to the dungeon, where it has a unique use in the dungeon but a more general use outside of it.
I think it helps tell a good story too, makes the magic item feel more grounded in the world
Ever since I got really into DnD I've wanted to copy/paste the layout and story of Twilight Princess's Snowpeak Ruins, but give the players complete freedom. They can kill the yetis, they can use their body weight to hold down switches at the cost of the team splitting up. They can skip the entirety of the Ball and Chain by using fire magic or their own weapons to break through the ice. I just think it would be neat to see people go through that dungeon in ways the original game devs never intended.
That's a good point I never thought of! Bet it would be fun to try
One thing I enjoyed was ending the session on a riddle or puzzle. Then by the time the next session rolls around, we've been chatting about it the whole time and have probably figured it out.
Good idea! Never done that!
Really good point about not doing anything which relies on players understanding their position in 3d space. I ran a very successful water temple with rising and lowering water levels, but to make it work i needed to make multiple 3D maps to share with the players
Or if you made an EPIC tile dungeon set!
Your video’s, views, and discussions are SO great! I really enjoy them. Content, function, and presentation are all wonderful. Thank you!
Glad you like them!
Awesome stuff, I've been wanting to implement multiple Zelda dungeons in my Campaign.
I've watched 4 of your D&D videos now and I reckon you deserve more attention as D&D advice channel.
Why thank you! You can help spread the word by sharing!
I'm trying to plan a LOZ campaign as a first time DM, this was really helpful for me with planning thank you!
Glad it was helpful! You can join my Discord and get all sorts of tips and advice when planning from loads of DMs discord.gg/tgzVTzpt
In terms of block puzzles, i have a War Mage who specializes in altering the world. It starts at level 1 with the Mold Earth cantrip; making trenches and higher ground to give my party the edge. Spells like stone shape and wall of force gives you many options to add onto this fortressing strategy.
Thanks for the tips. I have a game where the players are visiting a king's castle in the sky. They then discover that he has many exotic animals in the abandoned castle.
This was a great video! I have definitely fallen into some of the pitfalls of adapting video game dungeons into TTRPGS without realising ! Would love to see a Morrowind version of this as it is my first ever RPG/fantasy!
Glad you enjoyed it! Let's get those likes up!!
I concur.
This is a good rundown of how to adapt this material to TTRPG's.
Balancing the need for magic items, themes, mechanics, and mechanical role within the game.
Good work.
Awesome! I'm binging your stuff right now!
I love it when folks discover my channel! Welcome aboard!
I only missed one thing in this video the topic "visual aid support".
As you said, movement, especially when going back and forth, can be a hassle in TTRpg, which is not in video games.
However, once you consider it, a couple of things change. For instance, I like to use maps and even HeroQuest structure on my Table Top games, which help players to know where they visited and where they did not.
In addition, I use the visited chamber dice skipping rule, which allows the players to move freely (without a die) unless a monster is in the room.
Have you thought about this approach?
One of the ideas i had heard of when watching another creator talk about zelda-style dungeons:
Make the key item an item with a small number of charges, that will limit the number of times the PCs can use it before needing to find a way to charge it... And if its not too powerful, give them an upgraded version with no charge limit.
As an example straight from OoT: the Hookshot. It is powerful enough to kill skulltulas without waiting for them to turn their backs, but while its mobility is great, it has a short range. Eventually you get to upgrade it to the Longshot
cool idea with limited charges!
I have a dungeon delve coming up soon, gonna be so epic if I can manage to use all tips from lots of creators.
Good luck
Let me know how it goes!
I've come back to rewatch this a few times - still defo wanna run a Zelda style game sometime!
Look out for my next vid!!
@@ZipperonDisney hype!
It's weird that your channel doesn't have more subscribers. My favorite Zelda Dungeon is a hard choice but, I really like the Ancient Cistern from Skyward Sword. Despite all the horrible controls with the Wii Motion+ it is probably my favorite Zelda Game
Excellent video! Really excited to try some of these in my games.
How do you go about mapping/keeping track of these more complex state changes in a dungeon?
For example, in a water level shifting dungeon, potentially with multiple floors, how on earth do you map that?
And how do you keep track of what state the dungeon is currently in and what that effects so you make sure you don't accidentally tell your players the gate is open/closed when it isn't?
I've been thinking maybe you keep a sheet of paper with a footnote on each room about how if the Dungeon is in State 1, this gate is open, but State 0 it's closed. Something like that. That way you only need to ever know if the switch is on/off and let your notes take care of the rest.
Thanks!
I agree with you that Zelda dungeons need special care when translating to D&D due to player actions and agency (nothing defeats the point of small keys faster than the presence of a rogue in the party). One of the best places to look at how to handle this is actually Metroid. Metroid games tend to allow for sequence breaking in their level design, which can lead to better items (or treasure in D&D), fun and challenging difficulty spikes, or both. Watching speed runs of both series can help prep DMs for potential ways PCs might break their designs (though, it’s still best to expect the unexpected, in the end).
That does sound like a good place to draw inspiration
Zipperon this is a banger, thank you so much for sharing
Thanks for watching - please share the vid so others can see it too!
Man your videos are a gold mine
Thank you!! I put a lot of effort into each one 😊 💓 ☺
I copied several Water Temple mechanics several times. They worked well, but tbh the players not always understood the task.
What I really want to do is a sand temple riddle with light and mirrors, but I never finished designing it.
And I also dont know why no other mechanics sticked with my head. 😅
I've always wanted to do a mirror puzzle too, but whiffed the opportunity to do so when I had it
This video is too good well thought out for the amount of likes and subscribes it has. You have earned a fan friend.
Why thank you!! I have a few other pop culture as DnD tips vids. Hope you like them too 😊
I love how you always make original content
Thank you very much! I try really hard 😄
I am actually running a "Zelda dungeon pretty effectively and here's how I'm doing it:
1: All chests that don't have a ton of gold in them have a unique/legendary treasure. Not just a legendary axe or sword but maybe a chair that allows anything balanced on it to be weightless, or a fork that can cast detect poison on food eaten with it as well as it give you resistance to poison food.
2: I still have locked doors and "gated areas, tho I also create "longways" around them, I allow lockpicks but it's a high level lock, and the gates are instead seemingly impassable obstacles that can be attacked however you like.
3: DO NOT have only humanoid enemies in your dungeon! There are things like beholders, displacer beasts, dragons, and many other more interesting things to fight besides man and zombies for fuck sake!! In d&d oftentimes these non humanoid enemies are even smarter than you!
4: allows the players to be able to complete the dungeon without killing anyone or being detected (even the boss!)
Always wanted to do this, so this is great! ✌🏽😁
Let me know if you make a dungeon in this style!!
The successrate of a Zelda style dungeon depends alot on your players playstyle... My group wouldnt be able to get through much because their approach to dungeons is " If I cant see the solution and I have to look for it, It doesnt exist" :P So current dungeon they are in, there is an unlocked path to the room where the badguy is. but there are locked and hidden doors that lead to treasure.. They have, so far, walked past all locked/Hidden doors, except 2 :P 2 hidden doors they found by pure luck and accident :P
I don't even know how to play DnD, but this is interesting
Glad you're intrigued!
Uncanny, I've been thinking about Zelda-style D&D dungeons this past week.
Hope this helped!!
Did you watch the video by "Master the Dungeon" before making this video?
think I read their blog? Def watched Boss Keys
Great video! And if you hate your players you can just put together a water dungeon.
Love this so much
Did you ever do a Morrowind vid?
My observations:
//Central Hub: arguably not true for the oldest Zelda games/dungeons, or at least not obvious (wh/ to player experience, is the same thing...).
This is largely due to each room of the dungeon being the same fixed square size.
Also, it's I think that it's worth noting that older Zeldas tend to make players work thru several initial rooms before they actually reach the hub zone
//Back-Tracking: the central theories of 'Jaquaying' a dungeon seem relevant to consider here, as well as
the ideas of a living dungeon with an ecology, which means a given room/corridor may contain different challenges over repeat visits...
//Small-Keys: Another option is to have the small keys be physically part of the door hence why the 'key' is consumed upon use. Another spin is to make the door not really a door, eg. maybe it's a monster that needs to be placated.
Zipp touched on that a bit already with his statue idea.
And finally, there is the Metroid option, have the key be reusable, but have different colored doors.
//Macro-Puzzles which require understanding of the virtual space not being good for groups:
This is one point I find myself reaching for the 'respectfully disagree' button... although it might depend on the group in question.
Some people will greatly enjoy this, others will grealy not, it becomes a problem when the 2 types of people mix. Also, gotta call out here that most Zelda dungeons can be beaten without that understanding, because they are carefully broken up into multiple discreet sub-puzzles (usually 1 per room). Players can focus & beat each room, without it ever clicking what they are doing on a macro level until the end.
//Special Items considered Harmful:
First off, I think Zipp's take was a bit colored by the assumption of standard, off-the-shelf 5th edition D&D,
where people take it as a given they can have exactly what is listed in the core books.
necessarilyCue the arguments on 5e characters being overpowered ;).
One way that you could get permanent magic items to work is to go beyond dungeon/adventure design & into CAMPAIGN design; so the magnet glove doesn't just let them crack the dungeon, it expands access to the world at large.
Which very notably is how Zelda (& Metroidvanias) do it... Zelda items usually don't have single dungeon utility,
they are required to get to subsequent dungeons, access more pieces-of-heart, etc.
Obviously that option requires a lot more effort, but it should work, and if used well would be complimentary with higher level abilities... eg. dive into a given dungeon to get an item, OR have the druid learn how to turn into a birb to access the mountain fortress. (& needless to say, it would probably be one hell of a cool campaign)
Or they are encouraged to cultivate their own exploding flowers. It works great if you want players who are pyromaniacs with green thumbs.
Yup. That sounds like a player plan
This guy Zeldas.
Oooh... Morrowind :)
GOAT
would you be ageist talking about Zelda Bosses in D&D
In theory, no. But this vid didn't go over well and it took a TON of time to make :(
Your eyes, bro
It's got a thousand likes. Wheres the morrowind?