A BETTER METHOD! Fifth Wheel RV's Frame to Sidewall ATTACHMENT Improvement!
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Great video. I watch a lot of Rv related videos. Jared’s videos are also great. I watched his fix on his Rv with the lag bolts and the additional brackets he placed. You can tell which ‘Tubers are informational teachers and those who are just in it for their own benefit and self gain. I appreciate the teaching aspect of yours and Jared’s videos. I could name quite a few more. It has helped me when fixing or modifying things in my rv’s. Thanks again!
JD on my Sandpiper by forest river the vertical screw to the sidewall never moved what broke was the bottom flange. It both cracked and the welds broke from the flange to the tube frame. In my repaired we installed a much heavier bottom flange also made it wider because my tube frame was double and the flange only fasten to the outside tube frame. So by spanning both tube frames we were able to weld the bottom flange to the inside tube frame and then drilled 1/2 holes ever 2”so we could then tack weld each hole to the outside tube frame. We then reinstalled all the verticals screws back into the side wall of the camper. Hopefully it will never break again. So the weak link on mine was the flange itself. It looked very similar to the one in you video. Which in my opinion was to light, literally only about 1/8” metal. I can’t remember if the new flange we used was 1/4” or 3/16” but much heavier and wider to span the double tube frame. Again heavier material and fasteners should be used on these frames I still think they are under engineered. Not sure if Lippert’s or forest river selected the bottom flange to be used. Hope this helps and isn’t too confusing.
Right on for shouting out Northwood RV! The true benefit of Arctic Fox building in house frames is the frames are tailor made to the particular unit. They are also very robust. This is not saying other manufacturers don’t do their homework and take care of the engineering. For instance your Brookstone seems to be very robust nearly in every aspect.
Also great video!
The holes in the steel are sized for the bolts to be used. You wouldn't have movement unless you use undersized bolts. I do like the use of industrial structural fasteners for horizontal and vertical connections.
Why not design the bottom plate to extend up and wrap around the outside of the wall? This way, the wall would sit within a channel, and bolts could pass through to the beam as you suggested.
Then you create a channel that catches and holds water.
You could have a plate welded with nuts made by the frame manufacturer that goes inside the wall. That plate would have nuts welded onto it, then the holes on the frame rail a bit larger for manufacturing tolerances and the holes on the frame reinforced with a steel tube section so you can’t squish the tube/frame flex squish the tube thus making the screws loosen.
All the current methods ensure the screws will loosen overtime.
Great video, as a returning RV'er, I appreciate your efforts.
A very detailed explanation of your observations. Thank you for your efforts in this area of RV construction. These are some recommendations that hopefully will persuade manufacturers to increase budgets in this core area of a build.
Good information. I follow Jared’s channel too, and you both have addressed this issue very well. Thanks for sharing.
JD, the screws you suggesting are exactly what I was envisioning. I would even go a step further and have chassis frame manufacturers add an angle on top of the structural tube and being flush with the interior side of the trailer wall. In addition, the coach manufacturer would need to apply another aluminum/wood parallel to the bottom setup. This would allow coach mfr to add additional structural screws slightly above the chassis tube framing. The use of adhesive as you mentioned would still be employed. The fulcrum point now is anchored in two parallel planes to resist the lateral (East - West) movement. The coach wall is a rather long arm. Another thing I think would help is to have the chassis mfr install a wood section inside their tube. This would give additional bite to the structural screws. This would eliminate the sloppy hole scenario that I feel allows the lag bolts to work out and loose their intended purpose. Simpson even makes hurricane type screws, since RV's are often referred to roving earthquakes. JMO
Oh, I've been following your channel prior to this topic reared it's ugly head. That said, I feel your channel is great and hopefully is watched by, both the chassis mfr and coach mfr. They need to step up their game before this really has fatal consequences. As the Honey Badger says, "quit tripping over dollars to save pennies", hope my quote is accurate.
I like the idea of a full strip of stainless with bolts attached to go from outside to the inside with lock nuts and washers. I think the stainless would look fine. There are already many trim pieces with silicone all over the RV…plus it will be on the bottom edge….its not going to be in the center of the wall…..I have a 2021 Montana High Court 383TH and have already thought of this method since hearing about how the wall works with the frame together for strength therefore the wall doesn’t need to move independently of the frame…..Thanks for the great Video.
I did see someone installed a stainless steel backer plate (exterior) and bolted through the entire wall/chassis structure.
I agree, that would be the best attachment method and be a permanent repair. It’s not as aesthetically pleasing as a flush wall but the best repair method.
The post was on Grand Design RV Major Issue at Facebook.
Perhaps a bit better than the status quo, but still relying on a very small number of threads into a thin wall aluminum box and some threads into wood of unknown quality/density. The wood may actually be floating above the metal since cinching the screw tightly into the wood may end up stripping out any threads in the aluminum to do so. With the main concern on the sidewall attachment being in a relatively small area of overhang there is a more positive method that may be worth a look. There are expansion bolts of the proper size for hollow structural metal that only require drilling from the finished side just like the install you did. They are as solid as Riv-nuts but do not require pre-installing into the receiving component like Riv-nuts do (they are referred to as a “blind connection”). Easy to use and provide a positive fixed connection that would be very hard to improve on. I’d post a link but RUclips won’t permit it. Anyway, just my two cents worth, Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the informative video. I now have a few ideas on how to fix my 2015 Keystone Cougar. The flange on the bottom broke in the front on both sides. It has 8 vertical holes with 7 screws on each side and several are loose. Surprisingly it has zero horizontal holes, so no horizontal screws whatsoever!
I had this exact conversation with Brinkley last Monday when I was there on a factory tour.
My suggestion was to use a plate either built into the wall or one that was intertable on the line with internal rivnuts/nutserts so you wouldn't need to change the exterior trim, but still allow a bolted connection. This would allow everything to be hidden within the wall, use the appropriate strength fastener, and spread the point load over a greater area.
I think there is absolutely room for improvement here, but what and if/how the manufacturers decide to explore this is the real question.
I always look to other industries and how they do it since the problem at hand isn't rocket science. Buses and trains with a similar body on frame don't exhibit these issues. Maybe look at how those vehicles are constructed.
Just some food for thought. Keep up the great work sir!!
Awesome video. Thanks for caring so much.
Fantastic idea
Screws into wood will always fail in something subject to flex and stress. Look at screwed together (not glued) furniture for example. Brinkley bolts *through* their sidewalls using wood bocks only to prevent crushing the aluminum channel. This is the way. Fun factoid - non-welded metal-to-metal attachment relies on friction to prevent movement and not shear (sideways) forces on the screws themselves. The friction force is significantly higher than the shear strength of the fastener. This is also why the holes in the metal rail in the video are larger than the lag screws (they aren't bolts!)
they have those same screws with teeth under the big washer size head which when installed right it will bite the aluminum and add resistance to letting them back outcor start to waller out the hole
Your words to the manufacturer ears
This is very valuable information. Thank you!
It’s simple the outside wall should have a internal full piece of wood like 2x6 running the length of the steel shaft. Then use lag or construction screws from below up into the wood! The way it is now, there is a better chance the screws are just threading into aluminum or air space! Then use threaded bolts from outside to inside with the nuts on inside. Using a aluminum or plastic cap or covering on the outside to cover the bolt heads! As someone who works on aluminum aircraft, rivets are used due to vibration harmonics backing out fasteners! Which is why door plugs fly off of planes in mid air?
Instead of lag screws why not use carriage bolts with adhesive? Vibration will cause the lags to work their way out. Also they should use a thicker pice of wood that one isn’t thick enough to hold any screw. I’ve seen the back walls coming off of the 370FB, so it’s pretty obvious that the way they put them together isn’t working. I watched your series on Riverstone made me think it’s the one for me! Don’t remember if Riverstone used an aluminum side wall or if they are wood. JD, this may increase the cost of the RV BUT IMHO it would be worth it. We use those screws on rafters they make the use of hurricane clips not needed. The only place to break now is the weld. Do you think wood in the steel box would help?
JD, you need to start your own RV company! I would buy from you
On my particular RV, the bottom plate that is welded to the box frame, those welds gave way. Also no bolts through the box steel to the wall. Only bolted from bottom up. The thin plate on the bottom was firmly attached to the wall still, however the frame was able to flex up over 1’
Faulty welds right there.
JD another great video. Two things to mention. Those structural screws cost at least 10 times what the hardware the manufacturers use costs and second if they do use adhesive between the wall and frame the powder coat should be removed to get a good adhesion .
I'm really a good Welder and I feel so bad to hear about bad welding
Awesome demonstration. Hopefully all of the RV manufacturers will adopt this attachment method. The question is how is a perspective buyer going to know what method was used in the upper deck sidewall attachment.
Great video! Really like your ideas! Hope the mfgrs see this.
Also, while the use of industrial structural fasteners would cost more I would be willing to pay the difference for a stronger assembly.
Fastners in high vibration environments vs stationary decks. Through clamping forces please. Much like using small screws designed to fasten cabinet drawers in a kitchen vs in a bounce house. They come loose and tear out.
I would venture to bet that most manufacturers aren't putting adhesive between the wall and beam. That change would make a big improvement alone. A stronger screw would obviously be better than the cheap mild steel screws they use. On my last 5th wheel, at least 2 of them were broken after 18 months of travel.
I don't like the idea of using plates outside, as it introduces a point of failure in the fiberglass skin. That could potentially lead to leaks.
Great video
I forgot to add the wood should be treated wood? Due to the possibility of water intrusion! Not to mention it holds screws tighter in decks and outside walls. Compared to kiln dried lumber?
Very informative video
I like your idea, but couldn’t they also just wood inside of the steel frame? It would add a little bit of more weight of course. But around the 25 minute mark in your video when you are showing the inside of the frame, add wood inside of the frame. It should add to the strength so that the screws should not move as much. I’m presuming that you are going to send this idea to the manufacturers? Nice job on the video. Your thoughts on my idea?
I just had a similar repair done on my fifth wheel. The wall was separating from the frame. Repair shop opened it up and found a lot of the screws were busted. Talked with Forest River and they advised larger screws and replacing the lag bolts. Did all that and the driver side still moves when I put it on the truck. Beyond frustrated at this point. My camper is 2016 so I get to deal with this all on my own. No clue what to do from here. I think I have a video on my YT showing the movement.
You said all RV frames have sloppy human welds. Apparently you’ve not seen Northwood Mnfg frames.
I showed a Northwood frame.. yes I'm also talking about them.
I think the structural adhesive plays a much greater role than you give it credit for.
It appears that the lag screws act as a clamp to hold the assembly till the adhesive fully cures. Lag screws going through thin wall aluminum and a piece of crap pine could never be expected to hold in the long term. I presume that the structural adhesive is the Primary strength of the design. Replacing the horizontal lags with carriage bolts and aircraft locknuts would be a great improvement, although that would require some kind of cosmetic trim to cover the heads.
For sure mfg
are not predrilling the holes.
Any info on the distance between the holes on the side of the frame rail?
With out those lags being self drilling they would go into the wood strip but just push on the aluminum and strip out?
Those structural screws are absolutely self drilling into aluminum and wood. You would probably want to drill a pilot into structural steel but they will drill into thin mild sheet metal pretty easily.
I used similar ones with a different head to attach the new decking to a camper frame when I replaced the rotted out floor. I also secured the walls to the floor using the same style fasteners shown in this video.
The manufacturer had secured the walls to the floor using something similar to a cabinet screw found in a Kreg cabinet pocket screw kit, only not nearly as strong. Over half of the original screws had popped heads.
What keeps the wood in the wall?
100 dollars extra probably to use those screws, especially buying them in bulk.
If RV manufacturers haven't figured out how to construct these RV's properly by now, then they are purposely building them to fail. They build them "pretty" for the RV shows but structurally, well, you don't see that at the shows.
Not all mfg. use the adhesive. I think that's the solution here
And big lags into junk wood isn't going to last. You predrilled and you for sure he mfg. are not doing that.
The real issue is the use of coarse pitch screws and wood as a structural member. Wood and screws are fine if you are building a deck, but not a moving structure like an RV. The manufacturers need to wake up.
Not sure that's accurate. I never heard of a detachment on a stick and tin fifth wheel. It's all wood and screws.
@@BigTruckBigRV so you're saying that wood-screwed connections never loosen on RV's over time? Cuz my class A has loose screw connections that need periodic tightening continually and the whole frame flex issue seems to prove it as well. So my point is that bolted connections are the only way to go when structural integrity is required. As a retired mechanical engineer, I'm quite sure that is accurate.
you mention the steel thickness, but not what the engineered rating it has to carry given the entire design. If ther are that many faulty welds in certain areas, then that is highly problematic and QC inspections need to be improved significantly. A tech and inspector needs to sign off on eac element and ultimately be held responsible for problems that show up later. I am amazed at how often I see videos showing how poorly the manufacturer and the dealers purport to repair these problems. It is a joke.
No different than class a dp wall attachments with lower extruded alum and beltline trim. Nothing new - they are just cheap on these fifth wheels.
Elevator bolt in the aluminum frame before laminating wall
I don’t know why more and more people don’t buy livestock living quarters type trailers. Have pulled many Elite and 4 star trailers with 800k plus miles. They are built 1000x better than the junk out of Indiana