LDS/Evangelical Dialog: Does it matter whether God sinned?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- FAIR (LDS apologetics group) says that, "The idea that God may once have been a sinner is speculation. Many Latter-day Saints find the idea impossible, while others consider it a possibility."
It goes on to ask, "Does it really matter all that much?"
www.fairlatter...
UCRC is hosting a dialog between Aaron Shafovaloff (evangelical; associate with Mormonism Research Ministry) and Connor Smith (Latter-day Saint; founding member of the BYU Apologetics Club) on that very question.
Does it matter whether God sinned?
More info: www.mrm.org/go...
To be fair in my comment, I have watched this video from start to finish to understand Connor in his context when he answers. The Mormons struggle with critical thinking and logical extension of their belief system. I ran into a lot of those, specially the LDS missionaries, they always fall back on "we don't know" when they face the logical collision in their doctrines, but we do know, the Bible is very clear on those positions like if God ever sinned or not. Aaron gave him the answer that God was always holy holy holy, its impossible for Him to have sinned in the past because He was always holy and He was always God. Joseph Smith refuted biblical God Who was God from all eternity is why this young Mormon is so confused if God ever sinned or not. I enjoyed every conversation I had with the LDS missionaries since 2017 is when I began witnessing to them. Connor is a very nice guy, those types are great to talk to.
Connor, sorry, I asked a bunch more questions in the last 20 minutes, even after agreeing to just ask "one" more question. Apologies for the disproportion.
Thanks again for participating, and for your honesty and clarity.
No worries, just means I got to talk more to answer the questions. When I said I was happy with how the discussion went, I wasn’t just saying that to be nice. I meant it. Happy to do this again sometime
@@ConnorSmith-lh7uw Thanks for your graciousness. Yes, let's do it again.
@@ConnorSmith-lh7uwThat would be super awesome. I want you two to talk about a lot of subjects lol. Really appreciated the respect between you two.
Thanks for the discussion y'all! Very cordial, informative, and entertaining. Again sorry for the no show!
I’m actually really interested, why is the King Follett not considered a General Conference talk even though it was at General Conference?
Fantastic. Really appreciated this. Thank you so much to both. I was really quite impressed with this LDS fellow’s honesty and intellect and his understanding of his own theology.
Aaron, you know how much I love what you do. I smiled warmly at your introductory points, and prayed and thanked God for how amazing He is. Your eloquence and earnestness to humbly share the AWEsome and breathtaking truths of God is encouraging and fills me with gratitude, and all the while shames me for not doing more to serve the King. Thanks for inspiring me.
One other thing: I couldn’t help but notice an inconsistency. I imagined asking the LDS fellow: “why would you be unsure whether how things have been in the remote past are any different than how they are today?” In other words, in terms of the ‘spiritual cycle of things’ it seems as if the underlying assumption is that this current cycle in particular is peculiar when comparing to remote past spiritual cycles, for, he undoubtedly knows all here today are sinners, with embarrassing behaviors, yet a select few of today’s batch of people will become as God is now (according to his view). And I guess the deeper questions are, does he himself believe he is worthy of worship now? If not, what exactly must he do to attain worthiness of worship? And if/when he becomes worthy of worship, is it only those who are lesser than him that are subject to worshipping him? And would he not want to honestly deflect all their worship of him, and instead direct it to his God, since there was one greater than he and he himself worships another?
And shoot, I have even another question which just now came to my mind: if I serve a bunch of people everyday, feed them, love them, care for them, and they love me back and are thankful, isn’t that enough that they can worship me? (This is while thinking about his qualifications as to why he himself worships God - because God loves him and does all these things for him)
From what I understand it started at a funeral then stopped due to the rain and the wind, then was given again in conference, probably with some variation.
When you seek answers from the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, God can't help you because you have turned your back on Him. Therefore this leaves the door open for Satan (II Corinthians 11:14-15) to step into your life with a false christ or prophet showing you signs and wonders to lead you away from the real Jesus of the Bible who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God. God Himself warns us about this in: MATTHEW 24: 23-24
"Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..."
Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God. So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in?
A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan.
OR
B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God.
Show me the word Trinity in the Bible.
LDS don’t just believe Jesus and Satan were brothers, but that we are all sons and daughters of God. Before we came to earth, we lived with God in heaven as a family - so as sons and daughters of God, we are spiritual brothers and sisters.
We were part of the war in Heaven, and because we (all who came to earth), chose to follow God’s plan of salvation, in which we would have agency to choose to follow Him, vs Satan’s plan to remove our agency and force us all to choose good by removing all opposition. We fought against the dragon and he and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out. The remaining 2/3 of us were allowed to come to earth, gain a body, experience mortality, and have the agency to choose good over evil.
Here are a few quick snipets from the Book of Mormon regarding Christ:
- “Feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do” (2 Nephi 32:3)
- “And now, my sons, remember, remember, that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation” (Helaman 5:12)
- “what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I (Christ) am” (3 Nephi 27:27)
- “Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him” (Moroni 10:32)
And there are so many more. In fact, the Book of Mormon references Jesus Christ by name or reference (Lord, Saviour, etc) a ton!
And, if you don’t already know this, we (LDS / Mormons) study the Bible WITH the Book of Mormon. We consider them companion scriptures - together they add testimony of the resurrected Lord.
Did not Travis Anderson already answer this question?
He answered it slightly differently.
I appreciated the respectful tone of the dialogue. I’m curious if someone who holds Connor’s position about God (that God is worshipped because of *who* He is as opposed to *what* He is) can truly maintain that God is inherently worthy of worship. It seems like if you ground your worship of God in who God is to you, then it is necessarily subjective.
I just love hearing the way Aaron talks about and describes God and His beauty just truly being in awe of who our God is.
The King Follett quote actually says God was once a man as Jesus was, so I believe his intent was God the Father played the role of a Messiah somewhere in the universe.
"the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible...Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again"
"The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will...For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;"
Our Father in Heaven lived a sinless life as Jesus did, when we see him he will have the same prints in his hands as Jesus does.
Having said that denying that God could not have sinned as one of us would be denying the complete cleansing effects of the atonement. In Christ's atoning sacrifice our sins are completely washed away as if they never happened.
"though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" Isa 1
When we enter the presence of our Heavenly Father we will be totally perfect as he is and he will fill us with his light.
I think one of the problems when using the word boasting is that we are thinking in human terms. While boasting is a sin of pride for man. God truely is the only one that has reason to boast. For humans we are making more of our accomplishments but for God it trully is just a statement of fact. Gods boast is the only boast that is completely and utterly true.
If Jesus Christ was sinless and he was humble (not boastful) then how could God the Father be sinless if He is boastful? Does God keep the laws He gave us?
What if we don’t want to become a God or Goddess but a better human being?
That is your choice. You will choose the place you are most comfortable.
Amen ty for your work