The country has not gotten better the further away from Christianity it has gone, perhaps a consideration of common culture based upon traditions and Christianity is worth considering...
Having done volunteer work in the Republican Party at the local level for years, I can tell you we have all sorts of Christians, including pastors involved in politics outside of their churches. Our country has been set up for anyone to participate in politics at some level. Anyone interested in having more of a say, can find out where their local party meets, and go join them. No invitation required.
I'm a Caucasian American woman married to a Chinese. Because we are both in Christ, the cultural differences contribute to our Christian marriage and in the way we serve Christ. We have been married for 37 years.
Great points here! Indeed, you're right. The differences can certainly contribute and be amplified when living with humility and working toward harmony. Having some semblance of the same values, customs etc. guided by Christian practice helps. My wife is quite culturally different, and it has been good, made aspects more interesting, and, at times, challenging for both of us.
As a postmillenialist nothing frustrates me more than hearing that “we must wait for the outpouring of the Spirit of God before any of this is possible.” We can and must take political action now. Also Stephen should teach a class on reformed classical 2k. I would sign up.
@@mattborrusch8479 he’s new to postmil. He says it so much I had to turn him off. But postmil doesn’t necessitate non action. Modern example would be Andrew Isker
I've never heard anyone say we have to wait for the Spirit of God before we act. What I have heard is that the only thing that will secure true and lasting change is the transformation of human hearts by the Spirit, which is of course true. Any action that is not undergirded by true revival is doomed to go the way of Josiah's reformation.
The only bit I paid much attention to was the bit on the 'egalitarian impulse' and the guys hit the nail on the head. The church is completely useless on marriage and every time I hear a preacher talk on Ephesians 5 I come away confused and bewildered. I have no idea what marriage is meant to look like. They basically teach the husband exists for the wife and he is not allowed to enforce his authority in any way, but we know the woman was made for the man and that Christ punished the Church when she was naughty in both testaments? So I don't understand what the preachers are on about. This is from listening to Washer / Baucham / Piper / Mohler / Sproul / MacArthur.
So true. I think it's a problem from the feminisation of Evangelicalism. The non-progressive Mainlines and the Apostolic Churches don't have this problem.
I wonder if God has purposely allowed this confusion to get us away from leaders and media personalities and back to God alone. It's definitely heartbreaking to see our institutions and traditions collapse but it could be a good thing. Frankly, we Christians need this slap in the face to wake us up.
I’m Orthodox in training and they seem completely immune to this socio-cultural quagmire we call the left and right. If you want to change your country, you need to change hearts through the love of Jesus manifested in your life, one at a time.
I recently picked *Christian Nationalism* up again (because some of it is over my head), up to Wolfe's arguments for why civil governments ought to guide their people in the true religion, and its very thought provoking.
What you are talking about it is how we have been operating for years with church and politics? Maybe because I was raised on the farm and not waiting for someone to give us directives about our daily lives. The natural world is not evil, but the natural world is under the curse and in need of redemption which Christ will redeem when He returns. Until we are the salt of the earth.
"Choosing similar people over dissimilar people is not a result of fallenness, but is natural to man as man. Why? Because we are drawn by deep instinct to our good. Indeed, one ought to prefer and to love more those who are more similar to him, and much good would result in the world if we all preferred our own and minded our own business." Page 24-25 "Similarity enables you to exercise the highest love to your fellow man and to receive the highest love in return." Page 143 "People of different ethnic groups can exercise respect for difference, conduct some routine business with each other, join in inter-ethnic alliances for mutual good, and exercise common humanity (e.g., the good Samaritan), but they cannot have a life together that goes beyond mutual alliance." Page 148 This is unbiblical garbage, and yet it gets support in Christian circles. SMH!!🤦
Thank you for sharing these quotes. I agree that these ideas are unbiblical. It makes me sad to think that Jon Harris embraces them. In so many other ways he seems like such a godly young man. 🙏
Of all the interviews with Mr Wolfe, I was most encouraged by his going to practice carols, and join in carolling place to place. And for Mr Farris' credit, to concern over who his daughter might marry. Thanks, Jon.
Van Til had an outsized and unfortunate influence on 20th century reformed theology. He propagated many myths about theology written prior to his unique teachings. He's also one of the uniting factors in all the criticics you face Stephen. Until people are willing to face this fact and actually criticize the king, most people in this orbit won't be convinced.
Riiiight.... All the libs and lib-leaning evengelicals are Van Tillian. Checks out. He really messed up reformed theology... Yeah right. The only people I'm seeing do anything Biblical are Van Tillian... Unless of course you think the quality of politicians the SBC and the Catholic Church has discipled are high quality. In that case, welcome to your ideal world with your ideal president - he's not Van Tillian btw. In addition, the publishers of Wolfe's book, Canon Press - any idea where they are on the Van Til issue? Ah yeah... They're Van Tillian. Check out Doug Wilson - he's the pastor of the church that founded Wolfe's publisher.
When I was a young single gal and joined a Bible translation missions organization, I thought I might well end up marrying a guy from another country and culture. Instead I ended up marrying a boy from Ohio. But if I had married an international, I'd have expected to learn his family's language, food, and cultural history and traditions ... *which they could only have obtained* through many generations of particularity, being in one place, having shared traditions and history. Even cross-cultural marriage and a fascination with other cultures assumes that particular cultures exist and are distinct from one another, and have a right to be.
I love this. Beautiful. The CN haters can cope and seethe, but it's inevitable. 😎👍🏻 ✝️☦️✝️ Just found out he's another North Carolina Boy! The Ws keep stacking up!
Aquinas, the man who had an experience of Gid andvthen said "burn everything I ever wrote because it is worthless." So which Thonas Aquinas am I supposed to believe? The "dumb ox" who wote BEFORE meeting God or the humbled man who realized his entire Summa was straw? I don't get it Pinky. Why can't people figure out such simple things? The Brain
There is a ecclesial centrism of a Leithart and of the R2K guys which are completely opposed. Biblically the church is sort of central. What PL is advocating is that the church (saints) needs to return to God-needs reform in its worship and life-which includes its participation in the culture. Christ is King in all areas including politics which we are called to transform as saints. We as Christians (church)are the transforming agents but if we have lost our saltiness our culture will continue to slide into chaos. I think it’s a matter of priorities, loyalties and a person’s specific area of influence/power. As a believer one’s family should be very much intertwined with other local believing households. Living and working together in community which includes being involved politically. I don’t think Leithart was represented well in the beginning of this conversation as far as the relationship between family and the church. The R2K guys limit Christ demands to within the church and perhaps to the wider culture or politics thru personal evangelism. For now culture/politics should be left “neutral”.
Individual Christians living their lives where they find/place themselves = Christian Nationalism hopefully and prayerfully in America, well all the West that the West may be stronger than we've ever been in Christ. It is all about the great commission of Matt28. ❤ great convo Jon.
Wow. So cool to hear this discussion. Just learned about Joshua Farris, exceĺlent new learning source. Looking up all podcasts with Joshua Farris. Keep up the good work of rolling back or lifting the lid off that elite CT voice saying pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. The Great Oz voice blairing out liberalism, ...
Thanks for the hat-tip to Anglicanism, Jon. After years of seeking Jesus, but being turned off by organized religion, I became Anglican in my 60s. It has been enormously fulfilling, because, in brief -- -- a faith grounded in Scripture, Tradition and Reason, not a "personal relationship with the Holy Spirit" --- catholic, with no Pope -- a beautiful liturgy with 10 minute sermons, instead of long-winded 40 minute sermons by a "charismatic" preacher -- priests that marry and raise children -- saints without superstitions And in my specific American Anglican denomination -- Anglican Province in America (APA) -- -- no women priests -- no CRT -- no blessing same-sex marriages -- no support for abortion -- no politics from the pulpit Basically, church as it was in the late 50s and 60s Cheers,
I think the most concerning aspect of the book is that it says from the outset that it is not making a biblical case for Christian Nationalism. In fact, in all the interviews I have heard of Wolfe, he is proud of the fact that his book is a kind of Lex Rex 2.0 that avoids "scripture prooftexts." He even seems to disdain the biblicism (read: bible-centeredness) of the last 200 years.
He doesn't disdain the Bible, but the Bible is sufficient to answer all questions it sets out to answer. You don't need to cite a verse to defend your ideology of nationalism any more than you do to defend the fact that table salt is natrium chloride. His issue with Bible-centeredness is this Evangelical idea that anything not explicitly stated in the Bible is wrong (although it'd be more accurate to say your reading and interpretation of the Bible) and anything good must be supported with a verse plucked out.
@@MeanBeanComedy "the Bible is sufficient to answer all questions it sets out to answer." wherein you pigeonhole it away from even the "christian nationalism" you are attempting to establish. NEXT!
In general, ya'll are all over the place. Wolfe says pastors need to stay out of discipling about politics. And then Josh ends with saying that more discipleship needs to happen. Idk who ya'll want to do the discipleship but according to this episode, pastors shouldnt disciple, currently Wolfe is trying to do it while denying that he "does theology," and so discipling apart from Scripture. And finally, our public schools and the David Frenches are happy to do it. I don't get all your philosophical waffling around. In the end, ya'll just arguing for the status quo - impotent pastors, discipleship in politics unhinged from theology and grounded in prudential conservatism instead, and a whole generation taught by Scripture-twisting libs. I know that's not what you meant, but in practice those are the vibes ya'll giving.
The Gospel overrides traditions and is the heritage that needs to be passed on to our children. As a missionary living overseas in the midst of this woke culture and pandemic mess, a lot of my cherished traditions had to go in order to hold steadfastly to the faith.
For one, family get togethers during the holidays. Lockdowns and travel restrictions kept us separated for three years. The woke ideology and its political influence on our adult children produced a lot of cynicism and a critical spirit toward Christianity and the church. Jon was the first person I found on the internet to explain what wokeness was and what it was doing to the Gospel and to the church in America. We were clueless and couldn't understand what was happening to our children and their faith while we were on the other side of the world dealing with the lies and fallout from the pandemic. The book of Ecclesiastes kept us sane and 1 John was a constant reminder to keep ourselves in the love of God. I am very grateful for Jon's Conversations That Matter. That has been so helpful in understanding what our adult children have been going through these last several years.
The Gospel does not override traditions that aren't anti-christian. I don't have to abolish my heritage and culture to be a Christian. My heritage and culture were built on Christianity.
For me, Joshua Farris wasn't very helpful for the conversation. He seemed to be distracted and it was very hard to follow and glean anything substantial from him. I think it reflects his anglicanism. Reminds me of a conservative version of NT Wright. Wolfe is extremely clear and helpful for the conversation. Very concrete in his examples for real life scenarios. But I do disagree with his opinion of the role pastors should have in the life of his flock and society at large. I think we desperately need our pastors to be more than simply a chaplain in politics. I believe we desperately need pastors to join the neo black robed regiment!!! Like yesterday. Or there's no hope
Which is the downside of a Congressional Republic. The voter must stay informed. The pastor was usually the most educated in the village so he must be political.
So I get to be the annoying one, again. Pinky, the Bible are the most talked about books thus year. Now, which one, my vote is the Revealing of Jesus Christ.
@@MeanBeanComedy Here’s a main point I have against Wolfe in the 10th chapter he asserted that religious liberty is a Christian virtue, but I believe that is begging the question since James Madison (the father of the 1st amendment) was more influenced by the enlightenment rather then a Bible believing perspective. Like many of the founding fathers he seemed to be more of a Deist instead of a Trinitarian. I’d prefer my founding fathers to come from a more Trinitarian and theocratic package. But be that as it may Wolfe wants to promote “christian nationalism” in a nation that constitutionally supports religious pluralism ??? I’m sorry but this is ludicrous and baffling to anybody who is familiar with the amount of criticism that can be had at the founding fathers for the mess we are in. It’s just funny hearing somebody advocate for their own personal religion to be the dominant religion while also saying nothing about this glaring contradiction. If anything he should be arguing for deism or more multiculturalism since that’s the obvious conclusion this leads to. Nobody wants to lay a finger on their precious constitution 😆
Regarding the Chrisrmas Carolling... I am an immigrant fom Africa to Canada (40 yesrs ago) married to a caucasian French Canadian. The last time carollers came to our door they were a group of young Philippino believers spreading gospel cheer through our mostly unchurched multi ethnic community. We had a wonderful spontaneous moment of Christian fellowship IN CHRIST and it encouraged my heart so much. I think this example of wanting a homogeaneous family is so shallow and undermines the beauty of how Jesus Christ makes ONE out of MANY. Another story - my parents had a Muslim neighbor drop by their house this Christmas and the first thing she said wad MERRY CHRISTMAS! So don't hold back from going door to door in your Hindu community. They may be more welcoming that your caucasian neighbours (who may be leftisists and take far greater offense). I love my multiethnic/multicultural marriage. I think it illustrates the important aspect of the gospel - unity IN CHRIST.
Wanting to preserve my culture is not shallow. I value my heritage and my ancestors, and I seek to continue the unbroken line of my grandchildren looking like me. This is not shallow, it's completely normal and natural. If God wanted us to interbreed all our biodiversity away, he would've never given us the gift of our culture, heritage, and traditions to begin with.
@@MeanBeanComedy with great respect, we were all one to begin with. Adam and Eve were created with all that beautiful biodiversity in their DNA and we are all descended from them, our first parents. And the reality is it was the prideful hubris of our ancestors at the tower of Babel that led to the ethnic differences we now see. Yet God in His mercy abd grace also brought beauty from that. I guess my point is, if a person looks around at their family and a homogeneous ethnicity and culture is what they seek, but oneness in Christ is missing, there is no ETERNAL value in that. I understand what you say about seeing yourself reflected in your children. Believe it or not, those traits shine through beautifully in multiethnic marriages too! God's creative hand is glorious!
Ethnic differences started at the tower of Babel due to man's pride and sinful nature. That curse was reversed at Pentecost when the opposite happened and everyone heard the gospel in their language. There in no room for ethnic purity in the body of Believers. It is idolatry.
One of the most difficult dilemmas in the Christian’s walk with God (at least for me) is trying to grasp how God’s eternal kingdom (the gospel) and His dominion over the earth (Noahic covenant) work in concert with each other. If we take John MacArthur’s view on this issue literally, it becomes hard to justify the two kingdoms issue without inviting compromise...
@CP-dk8oi No. I mean to say that through Jesus the kingdom is now in our midst. It is not a temporal kingdom but a spiritual kingdom. The gospel is the means by which we enter into that kingdom through God’s sovereign grace and “gift” of faith. In my opinion, trying to explain how the “two kingdoms” concept would work together (practically speaking) in a fluid multicultural society like ours is an impossible task. There’s no longer any commonality that would allow for a “so-called” Christian nationalism…
@CP-dk8oi The universal “Body of Christ” is a spiritual reality that transcends any geo-political nation having physical boundaries and a common identity. As Christians our citizenship is in heaven. The problem however is that we are also citizens in the temporal world. As long as a nation is governed by Judeo-Christian values, we can get along with others (non-Christians). The more multicultural that nation becomes, the more difficult it is to function as true believing Christians without compromising our biblical values and maintaining a commonality
Stephen says in his book that pastors are not experts on governance. A pastor giving a mayor detailed instructions about how to run the city makes as much sense as a pastor giving a Christian plumber detailed instructions about how to fix the bathroom.
@@sgabig The common law of their country, whatever that might be, developed over generations to apply to that particular people in that particular place. In the U.S., that means the national and state constitutions, and local laws that are particular to that locality. The point is that magistrates are supposed to have expertise in applying the law in practical ways for the good of the community. Admin, city planning, etc are complex and something you need experience and practical wisdom to get good at ... as well as a broader knowledge of the issues facing the community that an individual pastor might not be in a position to have. Of course, pastors can give spiritual guidance to the magistrates they shepherd... but they don't have the know-how to "tell them what to do" in a detailed way. It's more a matter of making sure they are loyal to Christ, and helping them develop wisdom.
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev My conclusion that during the 2020 health anxiety crisis is that some people who assert that they are experts have possible morally dubious motives to exploit a crisis for financial gain & to increase power. I believe it's prudent to hold secular powers accountable for their actions
The claim that this is the most talked about evangelical book of the year is ludricus. It is pretty much unknown and certainly not taken seriously by anyone outside the Christian Nationalist, White Separatist bubble.
It's undoubtedly the most talked about. It's all over the internet. You're just seventy years old and don't go online much or hang out with the intelligencia of Christendom.
@@MeanBeanComedyStephen Wolfe is certainly not the intelligentsia of Christiandom, as you call it. Not even close. And seventy year olds know how to use the internet. With discretion. But it' shouldn't be your main source to information. Too easy to end up in a bubble. I've never heard of Stephen Wolfe except here, and he certainly doesn't come across as an intellectual.
That book has nothing to do with evangelizing. It has nothing to do with the Bible. It breaks every commandment Jesus left for us. It just uses Jesus as a mascot for power in a kingdom that Jesus said is not his
The country has not gotten better the further away from Christianity it has gone, perhaps a consideration of common culture based upon traditions and Christianity is worth considering...
Maybe the country has gotten further away from Christ because Christianity has gotten further away from Christ
Having done volunteer work in the Republican Party at the local level for years, I can tell you we have all sorts of Christians, including pastors involved in politics outside of their churches. Our country has been set up for anyone to participate in politics at some level. Anyone interested in having more of a say, can find out where their local party meets, and go join them. No invitation required.
I'm a Caucasian American woman married to a Chinese. Because we are both in Christ, the cultural differences contribute to our Christian marriage and in the way we serve Christ. We have been married for 37 years.
I believe it. Humility and sacrifice can overcome potential for conflict.
Yes. And also humility and sacrifice can overcome potential for conflict in our nation as well. Well said, brother.
Great points here! Indeed, you're right. The differences can certainly contribute and be amplified when living with humility and working toward harmony. Having some semblance of the same values, customs etc. guided by Christian practice helps. My wife is quite culturally different, and it has been good, made aspects more interesting, and, at times, challenging for both of us.
That's great! I'm happy for you. I don't think that needs to be promoted as a "new normal," though, for a plethora of reasons.
If a soul is truly transformed and being fed at the pulpit rightly, how could it not be practically lived out?
because of the lusts of the flesh, and the snares of the enemy; but apparently that is a question on the table: "what is the right food?"
As a postmillenialist nothing frustrates me more than hearing that “we must wait for the outpouring of the Spirit of God before any of this is possible.” We can and must take political action now.
Also Stephen should teach a class on reformed classical 2k. I would sign up.
Where does it say that in the Bible. Is it saving souls or owning libs now
That's interesting you say that because some postmillennialists like James White have said exactly that.
@@mattborrusch8479 he’s new to postmil. He says it so much I had to turn him off. But postmil doesn’t necessitate non action. Modern example would be Andrew Isker
I've never heard anyone say we have to wait for the Spirit of God before we act. What I have heard is that the only thing that will secure true and lasting change is the transformation of human hearts by the Spirit, which is of course true.
Any action that is not undergirded by true revival is doomed to go the way of Josiah's reformation.
@@ffrock1901 White functionally says this all the time. He sees Christian Nationalism as a future project rather than a present one.
The only bit I paid much attention to was the bit on the 'egalitarian impulse' and the guys hit the nail on the head. The church is completely useless on marriage and every time I hear a preacher talk on Ephesians 5 I come away confused and bewildered. I have no idea what marriage is meant to look like. They basically teach the husband exists for the wife and he is not allowed to enforce his authority in any way, but we know the woman was made for the man and that Christ punished the Church when she was naughty in both testaments? So I don't understand what the preachers are on about.
This is from listening to Washer / Baucham / Piper / Mohler / Sproul / MacArthur.
So true. I think it's a problem from the feminisation of Evangelicalism. The non-progressive Mainlines and the Apostolic Churches don't have this problem.
I wonder if God has purposely allowed this confusion to get us away from leaders and media personalities and back to God alone. It's definitely heartbreaking to see our institutions and traditions collapse but it could be a good thing. Frankly, we Christians need this slap in the face to wake us up.
Perhaps
I SURE DON'T HEAR CHRISTIANS DON'T TALK ABOUT FASTING AND PRAYING..
I’m Orthodox in training and they seem completely immune to this socio-cultural quagmire we call the left and right. If you want to change your country, you need to change hearts through the love of Jesus manifested in your life, one at a time.
@@marcyoverby3817They talk about it all the time outside of Evangelicalism.
I really don't think we're better off having our institutions collapse. Life without competent leaders rarely brings anyone closer to God.
I recently picked *Christian Nationalism* up again (because some of it is over my head), up to Wolfe's arguments for why civil governments ought to guide their people in the true religion, and its very thought provoking.
What you are talking about it is how we have been operating for years with church and politics? Maybe because I was raised on the farm and not waiting for someone to give us directives about our daily lives. The natural world is not evil, but the natural world is under the curse and in need of redemption which Christ will redeem when He returns. Until we are the salt of the earth.
"Choosing similar people over dissimilar people is not a result of fallenness, but is natural to man as man. Why? Because we are drawn by deep instinct to our good. Indeed, one ought to prefer and to love more those who are more similar to him, and much good would result in the world if we all preferred our own and minded our own business." Page 24-25
"Similarity enables you to exercise the highest love to your fellow man and to receive the highest love in return." Page 143
"People of different ethnic groups can exercise respect for difference, conduct some routine business with each other, join in inter-ethnic alliances for mutual good, and exercise common humanity (e.g., the good Samaritan), but they cannot have a life together that goes beyond mutual alliance." Page 148
This is unbiblical garbage, and yet it gets support in Christian circles. SMH!!🤦
It's not unbiblical. Show me the passage saying you have to have an interracial marriage.
@@MeanBeanComedy Where did I say you "have to have" interracial marriage?!!
Please either don't blatantly misrepresent me or learn how to read!!
Thank you for sharing these quotes. I agree that these ideas are unbiblical. It makes me sad to think that Jon Harris embraces them. In so many other ways he seems like such a godly young man. 🙏
@jackieperreault4737 You are welcome. Sadly, Jon and many others are not being Bereans with this.
Of all the interviews with Mr Wolfe, I was most encouraged by his going to practice carols, and join in carolling place to place. And for Mr Farris' credit, to concern over who his daughter might marry. Thanks, Jon.
Van Til had an outsized and unfortunate influence on 20th century reformed theology. He propagated many myths about theology written prior to his unique teachings. He's also one of the uniting factors in all the criticics you face Stephen. Until people are willing to face this fact and actually criticize the king, most people in this orbit won't be convinced.
Riiiight.... All the libs and lib-leaning evengelicals are Van Tillian. Checks out. He really messed up reformed theology... Yeah right. The only people I'm seeing do anything Biblical are Van Tillian... Unless of course you think the quality of politicians the SBC and the Catholic Church has discipled are high quality. In that case, welcome to your ideal world with your ideal president - he's not Van Tillian btw.
In addition, the publishers of Wolfe's book, Canon Press - any idea where they are on the Van Til issue? Ah yeah... They're Van Tillian. Check out Doug Wilson - he's the pastor of the church that founded Wolfe's publisher.
Great Podcast Jon.
When I was a young single gal and joined a Bible translation missions organization, I thought I might well end up marrying a guy from another country and culture. Instead I ended up marrying a boy from Ohio. But if I had married an international, I'd have expected to learn his family's language, food, and cultural history and traditions ... *which they could only have obtained* through many generations of particularity, being in one place, having shared traditions and history. Even cross-cultural marriage and a fascination with other cultures assumes that particular cultures exist and are distinct from one another, and have a right to be.
I love this. Beautiful. The CN haters can cope and seethe, but it's inevitable. 😎👍🏻
✝️☦️✝️
Just found out he's another North Carolina Boy! The Ws keep stacking up!
Aquinas, the man who had an experience of Gid andvthen said "burn everything I ever wrote because it is worthless." So which Thonas Aquinas am I supposed to believe? The "dumb ox" who wote BEFORE meeting God or the humbled man who realized his entire Summa was straw?
I don't get it Pinky. Why can't people figure out such simple things?
The Brain
There is a ecclesial centrism of a Leithart and of the R2K guys which are completely opposed. Biblically the church is sort of central. What PL is advocating is that the church (saints) needs to return to God-needs reform in its worship and life-which includes its participation in the culture. Christ is King in all areas including politics which we are called to transform as saints. We as Christians (church)are the transforming agents but if we have lost our saltiness our culture will continue to slide into chaos. I think it’s a matter of priorities, loyalties and a person’s specific area of influence/power. As a believer one’s family should be very much intertwined with other local believing households. Living and working together in community which includes being involved politically. I don’t think Leithart was represented well in the beginning of this conversation as far as the relationship between family and the church.
The R2K guys limit Christ demands to within the church and perhaps to the wider culture or politics thru personal evangelism. For now culture/politics should be left “neutral”.
Every CN hater thus far has failed the physiognomy check. 😬😬😬
Individual Christians living their lives where they find/place themselves = Christian Nationalism hopefully and prayerfully in America, well all the West that the West may be stronger than we've ever been in Christ. It is all about the great commission of Matt28. ❤ great convo Jon.
Another really good show.
We're in real trouble.
Lord have mercy!
Wow. So cool to hear this discussion. Just learned about Joshua Farris, exceĺlent new learning source. Looking up all podcasts with Joshua Farris. Keep up the good work of rolling back or lifting the lid off that elite CT voice saying pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. The Great Oz voice blairing out liberalism, ...
"We don't need a message from the pastor telling us to go vote, and how to vote!"
You're wrong.
Excellent work, Jon!! So glad to support you.
Thanks for the hat-tip to Anglicanism, Jon. After years of seeking Jesus, but being turned off by organized religion, I became Anglican in my 60s. It has been enormously fulfilling, because, in brief --
-- a faith grounded in Scripture, Tradition and Reason, not a "personal relationship with the Holy Spirit"
--- catholic, with no Pope
-- a beautiful liturgy with 10 minute sermons, instead of long-winded 40 minute sermons by a "charismatic" preacher
-- priests that marry and raise children
-- saints without superstitions
And in my specific American Anglican denomination -- Anglican Province in America (APA) --
-- no women priests
-- no CRT
-- no blessing same-sex marriages
-- no support for abortion
-- no politics from the pulpit
Basically, church as it was in the late 50s and 60s
Cheers,
Lovely. 😁😁 My favourite Protestants.
I think the most concerning aspect of the book is that it says from the outset that it is not making a biblical case for Christian Nationalism. In fact, in all the interviews I have heard of Wolfe, he is proud of the fact that his book is a kind of Lex Rex 2.0 that avoids "scripture prooftexts." He even seems to disdain the biblicism (read: bible-centeredness) of the last 200 years.
He doesn't disdain the Bible, but the Bible is sufficient to answer all questions it sets out to answer. You don't need to cite a verse to defend your ideology of nationalism any more than you do to defend the fact that table salt is natrium chloride. His issue with Bible-centeredness is this Evangelical idea that anything not explicitly stated in the Bible is wrong (although it'd be more accurate to say your reading and interpretation of the Bible) and anything good must be supported with a verse plucked out.
@@MeanBeanComedy "the Bible is sufficient to answer all questions it sets out to answer." wherein you pigeonhole it away from even the "christian nationalism" you are attempting to establish. NEXT!
In general, ya'll are all over the place. Wolfe says pastors need to stay out of discipling about politics. And then Josh ends with saying that more discipleship needs to happen. Idk who ya'll want to do the discipleship but according to this episode, pastors shouldnt disciple, currently Wolfe is trying to do it while denying that he "does theology," and so discipling apart from Scripture. And finally, our public schools and the David Frenches are happy to do it. I don't get all your philosophical waffling around. In the end, ya'll just arguing for the status quo - impotent pastors, discipleship in politics unhinged from theology and grounded in prudential conservatism instead, and a whole generation taught by Scripture-twisting libs. I know that's not what you meant, but in practice those are the vibes ya'll giving.
Did you read the book? What were your thoughts?
The Gospel overrides traditions and is the heritage that needs to be passed on to our children. As a missionary living overseas in the midst of this woke culture and pandemic mess, a lot of my cherished traditions had to go in order to hold steadfastly to the faith.
Curious- what are some of those cherished traditions that you gave up?
For one, family get togethers during the holidays. Lockdowns and travel restrictions kept us separated for three years. The woke ideology and its political influence on our adult children produced a lot of cynicism and a critical spirit toward Christianity and the church. Jon was the first person I found on the internet to explain what wokeness was and what it was doing to the Gospel and to the church in America. We were clueless and couldn't understand what was happening to our children and their faith while we were on the other side of the world dealing with the lies and fallout from the pandemic. The book of Ecclesiastes kept us sane and 1 John was a constant reminder to keep ourselves in the love of God. I am very grateful for Jon's Conversations That Matter. That has been so helpful in understanding what our adult children have been going through these last several years.
@@laurenkuo2333 Ah, gotcha. Hope your adult kids come around to biblical justice and truth instead of the mess that is worldy social justice.
The Gospel does not override traditions that aren't anti-christian. I don't have to abolish my heritage and culture to be a Christian. My heritage and culture were built on Christianity.
How crazy is it that the ad RUclips is showing as I watch this is for a woke board game called Disparity Trap?? 😂
🤢🤮🤮🤮
For me, Joshua Farris wasn't very helpful for the conversation. He seemed to be distracted and it was very hard to follow and glean anything substantial from him. I think it reflects his anglicanism. Reminds me of a conservative version of NT Wright. Wolfe is extremely clear and helpful for the conversation. Very concrete in his examples for real life scenarios. But I do disagree with his opinion of the role pastors should have in the life of his flock and society at large. I think we desperately need our pastors to be more than simply a chaplain in politics. I believe we desperately need pastors to join the neo black robed regiment!!! Like yesterday. Or there's no hope
Which is the downside of a Congressional Republic. The voter must stay informed. The pastor was usually the most educated in the village so he must be political.
Bingo. Bring back the Christian Monarchy.
So I get to be the annoying one, again. Pinky, the Bible are the most talked about books thus year. Now, which one, my vote is the Revealing of Jesus Christ.
Jon is so good at anticipating possible objections & misunderstandings!
Me: Can anybody give me biblical reasoning for Christian nationalism in America?
Stephen Wolfe: I want to go caroling!
🤦
What were your thoughts about the book after reading it?
@@MeanBeanComedy Here’s a main point I have against Wolfe in the 10th chapter he asserted that religious liberty is a Christian virtue, but I believe that is begging the question since James Madison (the father of the 1st amendment) was more influenced by the enlightenment rather then a Bible believing perspective. Like many of the founding fathers he seemed to be more of a Deist instead of a Trinitarian. I’d prefer my founding fathers to come from a more Trinitarian and theocratic package.
But be that as it may Wolfe wants to promote “christian nationalism” in a nation that constitutionally supports religious pluralism ???
I’m sorry but this is ludicrous and baffling to anybody who is familiar with the amount of criticism that can be had at the founding fathers for the mess we are in. It’s just funny hearing somebody advocate for their own personal religion to be the dominant religion while also saying nothing about this glaring contradiction. If anything he should be arguing for deism or more multiculturalism since that’s the obvious conclusion this leads to. Nobody wants to lay a finger on their precious constitution 😆
You got a new opening song!!!
Regarding the Chrisrmas Carolling... I am an immigrant fom Africa to Canada (40 yesrs ago) married to a caucasian French Canadian. The last time carollers came to our door they were a group of young Philippino believers spreading gospel cheer through our mostly unchurched multi ethnic community. We had a wonderful spontaneous moment of Christian fellowship IN CHRIST and it encouraged my heart so much. I think this example of wanting a homogeaneous family is so shallow and undermines the beauty of how Jesus Christ makes ONE out of MANY.
Another story - my parents had a Muslim neighbor drop by their house this Christmas and the first thing she said wad MERRY CHRISTMAS! So don't hold back from going door to door in your Hindu community. They may be more welcoming that your caucasian neighbours (who may be leftisists and take far greater offense).
I love my multiethnic/multicultural marriage. I think it illustrates the important aspect of the gospel - unity IN CHRIST.
Wanting to preserve my culture is not shallow. I value my heritage and my ancestors, and I seek to continue the unbroken line of my grandchildren looking like me. This is not shallow, it's completely normal and natural. If God wanted us to interbreed all our biodiversity away, he would've never given us the gift of our culture, heritage, and traditions to begin with.
@@MeanBeanComedy with great respect, we were all one to begin with. Adam and Eve were created with all that beautiful biodiversity in their DNA and we are all descended from them, our first parents. And the reality is it was the prideful hubris of our ancestors at the tower of Babel that led to the ethnic differences we now see. Yet God in His mercy abd grace also brought beauty from that.
I guess my point is, if a person looks around at their family and a homogeneous ethnicity and culture is what they seek, but oneness in Christ is missing, there is no ETERNAL value in that.
I understand what you say about seeing yourself reflected in your children. Believe it or not, those traits shine through beautifully in multiethnic marriages too! God's creative hand is glorious!
Ethnic differences started at the tower of Babel due to man's pride and sinful nature. That curse was reversed at Pentecost when the opposite happened and everyone heard the gospel in their language. There in no room for ethnic purity in the body of Believers. It is idolatry.
Great podcast
Yes!
One of the most difficult dilemmas in the Christian’s walk with God (at least for me) is trying to grasp how God’s eternal kingdom (the gospel) and His dominion over the earth (Noahic covenant) work in concert with each other. If we take John MacArthur’s view on this issue literally, it becomes hard to justify the two kingdoms issue without inviting compromise...
@CP-dk8oi No. I mean to say that through Jesus the kingdom is now in our midst. It is not a temporal kingdom but a spiritual kingdom. The gospel is the means by which we enter into that kingdom through God’s sovereign grace and “gift” of faith. In my opinion, trying to explain how the “two kingdoms” concept would work together (practically speaking) in a fluid multicultural society like ours is an impossible task. There’s no longer any commonality that would allow for a “so-called” Christian nationalism…
@CP-dk8oi The universal “Body of Christ” is a spiritual reality that transcends any geo-political nation having physical boundaries and a common identity. As Christians our citizenship is in heaven. The problem however is that we are also citizens in the temporal world. As long as a nation is governed by Judeo-Christian values, we can get along with others (non-Christians). The more multicultural that nation becomes, the more difficult it is to function as true believing Christians without compromising our biblical values and maintaining a commonality
That’s why so-called “Christian nationalism” is a misnomer
@CP-dk8oi I’m talking about the moral and civil traditions derived from the Bible (The Ten Commandments)
@@thomashemeon2069The commonality comes largely from elites. When we replace the elites. The commonality returns.
Stephen says in his book that pastors are not experts on governance. A pastor giving a mayor detailed instructions about how to run the city makes as much sense as a pastor giving a Christian plumber detailed instructions about how to fix the bathroom.
Who should the politicians take their marching orders from?
@@sgabig The common law of their country, whatever that might be, developed over generations to apply to that particular people in that particular place. In the U.S., that means the national and state constitutions, and local laws that are particular to that locality.
The point is that magistrates are supposed to have expertise in applying the law in practical ways for the good of the community. Admin, city planning, etc are complex and something you need experience and practical wisdom to get good at ... as well as a broader knowledge of the issues facing the community that an individual pastor might not be in a position to have.
Of course, pastors can give spiritual guidance to the magistrates they shepherd... but they don't have the know-how to "tell them what to do" in a detailed way. It's more a matter of making sure they are loyal to Christ, and helping them develop wisdom.
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev My conclusion that during the 2020 health anxiety crisis is that some people who assert that they are experts have possible morally dubious motives to exploit a crisis for financial gain & to increase power. I believe it's prudent to hold secular powers accountable for their actions
The claim that this is the most talked about evangelical book of the year is ludricus. It is pretty much unknown and certainly not taken seriously by anyone outside the Christian Nationalist, White Separatist bubble.
It's undoubtedly the most talked about. It's all over the internet. You're just seventy years old and don't go online much or hang out with the intelligencia of Christendom.
@@MeanBeanComedyStephen Wolfe is certainly not the intelligentsia of Christiandom, as you call it. Not even close. And seventy year olds know how to use the internet. With discretion. But it' shouldn't be your main source to information. Too easy to end up in a bubble. I've never heard of Stephen Wolfe except here, and he certainly doesn't come across as an intellectual.
The threat is this : look at the Curse. No commentator will touch it.
Leadership ? I vote for Voddie Bauchum as an Apostle
That book has nothing to do with evangelizing. It has nothing to do with the Bible. It breaks every commandment Jesus left for us. It just uses Jesus as a mascot for power in a kingdom that Jesus said is not his
Legitimate critiques exist. This is not one of them.
Is this owen strachan?
It is his burner account lol
Christ rules over every square inch.
"All authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth" Matt 28:19