Was about to comment this. Haha. Great video. Let me know how your workaround is if you have 1) A Atomos Ninja attached to the camera through HDMI Signal - AND 2) An external monitor through SDI. Whenever I change the EI on the Fx6, the Ninja + External SDI Monitor change brightness based of the EI. I know I can apply a LUT to the Atomos Ninja, but my SDI Monitor can't have LUTS Applied. So; As far as I'm aware, there's no way to turn off the LUT (EI) Signal on one of those signals. Correct me if I'm wrong. Highly appreciate your video. :)
@@sondreformolindheim7108 Alister Chapman made a pretty useful video about monitoring signals and LUTs and how to apply them to different outputs. Maybe this here can help: ruclips.net/video/hBllC9TUKJk/видео.html
@@RonaldKasper First time I've discovered your channel - I reply and you reply back in just a few minutes after my reply. THANK YOU! I'll look into the video right now. Much of love from Norway.
The clearest sign that exposure isn't changing, is by enabling auto-ND and watching eND NOT changing when changing EI value! Great video for a new FX6 user, thanks!
The best explanation of Cine EI mode is think of it as 1. Yes, you first expose your image as you normally do without changing EI at all while keeping at base ISO 2. Now think of different scenario of brighter or darker scene where whilst exposing (again) as you normally would but you have in back of mind that I want to retain the highlights or shadows by adjusting in post but you are not sure if the image exposed well enough to retain those in post, this is where you just crank up/down EI temporarily and just check on screen if you have those informations or not to be able to do in post. Also that amount of EI up/down can be stored in metadata so that one can achieve exact that in post while grading. Hope this helps.
Ahhh. So what you’re saying is... Using those “EI stops” either up or down - shows you virtually whether or not you have data to retain and what it would look like if you boost or cut in post? Effectively?
Cine EI lets you preview your desired final exposure when shooting in S-LOG3 - AGAIN, you clearly explained in minutes what others took an hour to make confusing! Danke
Would you mind making more videos about the Sony FX6. I would actually love to see a video about your steps in adjusting to get the perfect look using the nature lighting in any situation
Thanks you so much. I’ve watched several videos on CINE EI and they show how to use it, but don’t give a proper understanding of what it actually does. Your video is great, it sums it up perfectly! 🙂👍🎥
Thanks a lot, I‘m happy when it was helpful! I have several other videos about image noise or custom mode vs Cine Ei on my channel, maybe you‘re interested in these as well.
I finally understand how this works after almost a year of figuring it out. I though an ISO invariant sensor is needed for this but no. This feature can be achieved with a monitor that you can load LUTs into that adjust exposure -3EV to +3EV. Aka exposure correction luts. -1EV on a LUT is like EI400 and -2EV IS EI200. +2EV is EI3200. My 11 year old camera can take advantage of this same thing
Yes, that’s basically correct. But with cine EI you don’t need an external monitor for it. If you have a camera that lets you load correction luts on it, it would even work without cine EI directly in camera.
Perfect video to explain Cine Ei! Simple! I know how to use it but it’s this time is so easy to understand in a video. But you could over expose with Cine EI. Exemple : ISO 800 by 2 stops if you want expose a mountain (with snow) to get more dynamic range in highlight 😊
Thanks Emmanuel for your comment! And yes, in some situations it could eveb be useful to use a higher EI that ISO, but that's really only in situations that are very bright. Like the mountain-environment with snow you mentioned. But normally you're good to leave EI under the ISO value.
Iso doesn’t affect exposure it affects the perception of exposure. The only “iso” that matters is the native iso. Shoot at native iso you can raise it to whatever you want by iso or in your NLE and it will have the same amount of noise. Changing the iso for exposure is a videographers tool to bake in exposure changes not expecting to grade anything. If you are going to color correct the footage where 99% of pros will (including videographers now) changing iso isn’t useful. Shoot at the native and adjust exposure with t-stop,light output & ND like you’re supposed to do. Shutter angle obviously messes with motion blur so kinda locked into that but those are your tools. This just removes iso control forcing you to do what you should have been doing already
Just getting started with all this and trying to cram as much knowledge in my brain as possible. The video helped me a lot, still I have one question left. When using a greycard in a try to expose correct I would try to line up the waveform with the "dedicated" line - white: 70% grey 40% black 20%. Am I doing this on the SLOG Footage so without EI dropped down or monitor it with "the look I want"? Maybe another example is necessary: I want to overexpose the image for less noise in the final image so I either drop the ND or add more light. My EI is still at 800 - now my footage is overexposed a bit, but when I drop the EI to 400 or another stop lower it looks like I want it too look. Now if I then want to check the exposure and set a greycard as reference would I "adjust" the exposure as needed while looking on the waveforms of the 400 EI look or the 800EI look?
You have to expose for the final look, so when you lower the EI to 400, then you expose for white/middle grey at that value, not at the original slog3 values (EI 800). Because the EI400 is what you will see in your finished footage. Davinci Resolve even overtakes the EI value now when you import the footage, so you will exactly see how it looked like with the applied EI value in camera. There’s no need to take the extra step and bring it down in post. And that’s why you need to adjust your values for the final look.
Well, now you can maybe help me with this: Ive got a FX6. And if i change the EI values nothing is changing. The Monitor is not changing its "iso" at all. And yes i have different values at L M and H. Might be a LUT i think@@RonaldKasper
@@PeGenerqizR are you in the EI mode even? If yes, check your monitoring settings in the quick menu. You need to set the viewfinder to „mlut“ to be able to see the changes on the fx6 screen. I made another video about comparing custom mode vs EI mode where you can see what you have to set in the menu. ruclips.net/video/0i0I7IcSosg/видео.html
@@RonaldKasper yes I am actually. I will check the MLut setting on Monday. I think this will resolve the problem! Thank you very much! Your videos are awesome!
thank you for this video, I am almost at 100% understanding here. Can I ask why you set the zebra to 77%. This is what is confusing me as many are saying to set at 95, or 94 or 93
I am monitoring my signal after the 709 LUT is applied, so these are the recommended values from sony for white values. I found that in this video: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/?amp=1
If you increase the aperture you loose depth of field. Depth of field means that the foreground is sharp and the background isn’t. If that’s ok for your composition, then your method is fine.
so basically, the different cine ei's are just luts? Thats it? the iso is always one of the two base ISOs and whatever Cine EI you change it to is like changing the LUT you are looking at?
This!!! Yes, I was trying to think.. which wasn’t mentioned.. having the lut on is the most important small detail to get the “final” look in terms of using Cine EI. Because you won’t really tell a huge difference if everything is shown in regular SLog without a lut. The lut, on, will show you the corrected image with cine ei, although you’re recording overexposed. That’s what I’m getting from this, but I just didn’t hear was mentioned. That lut, is key. (At least I think lol)
@@LorenzoHines. the LUT „on“ makes that you see the exposure lines in the waveform after the LUT was applied. Otherwise it would show the slog3 exposure. And yes, for correcting the exposure with a whitecard like I‘ve shown, this is necessary.
So it's basically a kind of monitoring option that helps you expose properly by giving you control on what would be visible under what lighting situation by giving you the possibility to expose relative to your Native ISO, so that you don't miss what kind of lighting in your scene and exposure that you want?
@@RonaldKasper Coming from a Panasonic GH5 I am going through hell right now with the menu's and clarity on what is going on with my shot and settings... Seriously considering selling the FX30 again for a S5IIX. Hope it gets easier.
Thank you for this very short and instructive video. The only thing i do not find is the function or button where i can change the exposure of the screen only (2:35) without affecting the HDMi output. thank you
Hi! You can change this in the "monitoring" section of the menu. Set "SDI/HDMI" to Slog3 and set "VF" to "MLUT". That way, the lut is only applied for the internal camera monitor and your EI-values change the monitor exposure. But on the SDI/HDMI outputs, the SLOG3 signal is sent so this exposure doesn't change.
thank you, in the monitoring section i do not see the place where i can set SDI/HDMI to Slog3 ? same for VF to MLUT ? i scrolled all the menu. can you point the place ? @@RonaldKasper
@@obmedias It's possible that you are in custom mode. Switch to the full menu (longpress menu button) and switch to Cine EI first. You can do that under "USER" - "Base Setting" - "Shooting mode" = "Cine EI". Then you enter the quick menu (leave full menu and press menu button quickly) and go to page 5. In there is my "Monitoring" Section where I can change Gamut/Gamma of SDI/HDMI to "MLUT off". If you do this you see "SG3C/SLOG3" afterwards in the setting. Strangely I couldn't find find these settings in the full menu. If you do, please tell me ;-) Thanks!
i do not understand where is what you can do that i can't ! i'm in Cine EI already but the rest (to simulate the color grading in the VF i do not see where you set the HDMI / SDI to Slog3... @@RonaldKasper
Clearest Cine EI explanation out there, thanks! So the Waveform DOES change while lowering EI below base/native, doesn't stay on the original native iso. Would you suggest overexposing on base iso 800 for cleaner shadows as well?
The Waveform on the monitor only changes, if you are monitoring the MLUT signal (not the SLOG3 signal). You can change this when you set "MLUT" in the SDI/HDMI output setting. If you use SLOG there, you are really monitoring the unchanged SLOG3 value that is recorded. And this does NOT change as we've heard in the video. So this is important to see a change in the waveform. The recording always stays on the native ISO, only the screen brightness does not when you set SDI/HDMI to "MLUT". In 800 ISO mode, I don't overexpose because I don't feel the need. The shadows are pretty clean out of camera. But I always overexpose by 1 stop when I use ISO 12.800. Maybe my newest video where I talk about noise is interesting for you as well: ruclips.net/video/7O21O9KSbMY/видео.html
Hi! You can change this in the "monitoring" section of the menu. Set "SDI/HDMI" to Slog3 and set "VF" to "MLUT". That way, the lut is only applied for the internal camera monitor and your EI-values change the monitor exposure. But on the SDI/HDMI outputs, the SLOG3 signal is sent so this exposure doesn't change.
I am curious on how to use catalyst browse to how to adjust ISO to get the right exposure in running gun situations. I do not want to manually change the exposure but instead access the metadata. I’m guessing this is possible. Can you make a video on that. Explaining the workflow? I’m guessing we will see a better picture quality doing it this way instead of using flexible ISO in camera. 🤔
Hi! No this is not possible, don't confuse LOG with RAW. Only in RAW footage you can change the ISO. Catalyst browse does not allow you to do this with FX6 footage (unless you record it in RAW with an external recorder). What you can change in Catalyst browse is just metadata like flags, title, creator and description of the clip.
Hi Ronald, Super video! Still i feel a little confused (probably that's just me) When for instance recording at high base ISO and lowering the EI value, you still need to make sure that on the non EI monitor the scene isn't overexposed? I now understand that you can lower the EI value to preview a 'closer to final product' image, but it's not really clear what the process is to expose the actual recorded image. How many stops can we overexpose, or do we just overexpose and make sure it's not blown out? Would we do this with the internal VND's or through other methods? You probably already explained this in others wors in the video, but this EI concept just totally eludes me... Thanks!
I think your thoughts about this are too complex. In my example you see that I recorded the deer and the crocodile with EI 3200, but I still recorded it with ISO 12.800. That means the FX6-screen shows how the image would look like when it was filmed with ISO 3200. On that image (that should be our final result), the white-level would be very dark, if we only bring down the EI but don't do anything else. Since we want our white to have a correct level in the end-footage, we need to brighten the scene or lower the ND. So in your recorded SLOG3 footage you bring up the white level more to 100% as you can see in the last part of the video. So the whole image is recorded much brighter, but this is NEEDED because you want to bring down everything in postproduction so that it looks like what was shown on the screen of the FX6. And then your whites have the needed levels in the endresult, although they were recorded buch brighter. your question of how much you can overexpose is difficult. Depends on the scene. But in my tests, where I brought the white level to 77% on the screen with the s709 LUT, I could easily drop down the EI by two stops. Then I re-exposed and brought up the whitelevel by two stops to again 77%. That means I overexposed by two stops and it was no problem.
Great video! Thank you! I have a question for you regarding your Gin & Tonic video which by the way is awesome! Do you think that I could achieve similar cinematic results shooting with my Fx6 and a Sony 24-70 2.8 lens or a 50 micro prime Sony lens and a slider? Also do you have more videos in general on exposure?
Hi! Thank you for your comment! Yes of course, a 24-70 lens is fine, I shoot most of my stuff with a Sigma 24-70 (or a Sony 35mm f1.8). I have another video which is called „Avoid Noise with Sony Cinema Cameras“, which is all about exposure as well. Maybe check it out! Bye!
Can you tell me if this is correct? You only have 2 Base ISOs that you can choose from in Cine EI. When changing the EI values in your camera you're not actually changing anything with the exposure of your real image file... it only changes how you see the image in your monitor. The reason to adjust your EI values are only for you to see how to adjust the exposure through lighting, ND, or Aperture, So if you want clean shadows you lower your EI value. This darkens the scene in your monitor and you realize you need to bring in more lights for your subject to be properly exposed because everything has gotten darker. Then when you bring this footage into your grading software all looks overexposed. But you'll just bring down the exposure to correctly expose your subject and your shadows will be clean! Is this correct?
This is exactly correct. Although the new Davinci Resolve already takes the EI value and sets it in the „RAW“ page of the color tab. So it automatically darkens it for you. Of course you can adjust this darkening to your liking.
Super great, thank you. Can I just clarify, shooting on an FX3 for example with SLOG3 and cine EI mode, should you always overexpose at least +2.0? For best colour grade and output? Thanks!
It all depends on the scot scene, but if there are no harsh highlights I need to protect, I overexpose by half a stop in the lower base iso. The results are fine without overexposing much. In the higher base iso (12.800) I overexpose about +1.7 otherwise I get too much noise.
Hi! These are the lines for the zebra values I set in camera. The lower one (value=45%) is for middle grey snd the upper one (value=77%) is for white areas. These values have been suggested by Alister Chapman and the detailed explanation can be found here: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/?amp=1
The first part announced as a simplification approach is obviously attractive and makes you want to go further. What I understood is that any modification of the EI does not change the setting of the recording. ? Then cine EI is useful for the purpose of recovering information or details either in the highlights or in the shadows by changing first the exposure, then to modify the appearance of the image of the monitor (cine EI ) by playing on several stops in order to obtain an image in accordance with our initial wishes. Right ? In fact you're offsetting your LUT to see the offset that you'll have to do in post to bring the clip into a normal range. And my question is how can we see, the difference between the two setting ? in any matter, in the metadata but may be as well in Catalyst Browse ?? When I change the EI on my display and then read it on my lap top, it looks the same than the cine EI display on my monitor and not the recording clip ??
Yes, you summarized it very well. I don't know exactly what you mean with "how can we see, the difference between the two setting", but I assume you mean how you see it in postproduction. The answer is: You don't. The EI value is not recorded in the footage or shown in any setting of the footage as far as I know. You have to bring it manually down the the correct exposure, there is no automation behind this (not even in catalyst browse).
😂 I‘d put one in here but I can’t post photos in the comments. What exactly are you interested in? You mean the shelf in the right part of the background? There are just a buch of aputure and godox bags basically. The „interesting“ stuff is in the cupboard 😉
Thank you! I feel like I ALMOST understand haha. I'm a currently A7S3 user so can't really try this out myself, so does the EI mode kinda "replace" your ISO? Meaning you can't adjust ISO values in EI mode? Where do you pick the recorded EI level? I mean if you lower the EI value shown in the video doesn't that just do the exact same thing as lowering the ISO? This is unless the camera always records 12800 if you like set it in the menu somewhere and changing the EI on the monitor is just an viewing exposure value like you described in the beginning. 😅
Hi! No the ISO does not replace the ISO. Like shown in the Video, you only have 2 ISO values available in EI mode. If you set the camera to 12.800 and the EI value to 12.800, you see on the screen exactly what you record. If you lower the EI value to 3.200, then you still record everything in 12.800 ISO but the screen looks darker, like if you have choosen 3.200 ISO. That‘s a nice tool for overexposing a bit to get cleaner shadows, but I explain that exactly in the video.
If I use a LUT like the Leeming LUT PRO in post, that actually brings the footage, I think two stops down and even use it with the monitor as a custom LUT wouldnt the cine EI be useless?
Well if you exactly want to overexpose by two stops then you’re right. But with cine ei you can quickly change the stops of overexposure (1/2 stop, 1 stop, 1 1/2 stop) which could be more convenient than changing the LUTs. Otherwise, the result should be nearly the same if the LUT is good and if you stay in the base ISOs of the camera.
I am usually doing shoots in less controlled lighting - my question - is it better for me to still use one of the native ISO's of the sensor and adjust exposure up/down in post - or expose 'properly' in camera by changing my ISO and doing digital noise reduction in Davinci Resolve? I am afraid that either under or over exposing at the native ISO in the Cine EI more will leave me with either blown highlights or lost shadow detail that can never be recovered. At least if the data is there doing noise reduction in post gives you a shot at rescuing the image... Thanks!
Using a lower EI value than ISO is the same as overexposing with a mirrorless camera. I wouldn’t say this gives you blown out highlights necessarily, but if you need a lot of dynamic range in your image, it could be of course. I typically stay at the native ISOs and didn’t adjust the cine EI too often in real shooting scenarios. What needs to be said though is, that raising the exposure in post has it‘s limitations especially when you work with dark footage. Because it only adds gain to an already noisy image. Cine ei (which is only a tool for controlled overexposure) can really help in these conditions to get an image you couldn’t create in post.
Hi Ronald, According to what I see in this video Sony FX6 monitor and Ninja monitor have different color balances. Ninja's monitor has yellow/green (warm) cast. Is this bother you? Or we should care less? Or do we have to calibrate Ninja? Thank You
Hi! Yes you are right, they differ quite a bit. I don’t care too much about the color shift although a calibration would definitely be a good idea. I‘m a lazy „fix it in post“ guy although I rely more on the big screen to be honest. and it looks pretty good after I‘ve put in in Davinci.
@@RonaldKasper Thank You I do the same - „fix it in the post“... It still bothers me anyway that something is not perfect, but the Atomos made the calibration process such an expensive pain, that I decided to invest in something better... Something that allows me to see better without the obstruction of ambient light.
When you switch to a lower ei value, your display exposure graph aldo shows lower values. Mine doesnt. Id like to be able to use the graph to expose correctly after having dialed in a lower ei value.
You can change what your waveform shows in the monitoring section of the FX6 menu. You can choose between the slog 3 signal and a lut that you can apply to the base signal. Probably you monitor the slog 3 signal which never changes when you lower the EI value.
Hi Ronald I know I'm late to the party. But for some reason, when Im in cine EI mode, when I lower the ISO on my camera my Shinobi also changes the exposure. As per your video when you brought the cine ei exposure your monitor didn't change. What am I doing wrong?
Don’t worry, the party is still going on 😉 When your external monitor changes as well, you have probably set the HDMI output signal to „mLUT“. You can change this in the SDI/HDMI output settings. If you use SLOG there, you are really monitoring the unchanged SLOG3 value that is recorded, like I did it in the video.
But if you use an ND filter and use your correction LUTs on the monitor, doesn’t that just do the exact same thing if you only use 800 or 12800 when you shoot?
If you are using levels or false colour will the readout be based on the true EI value or the simulated EI value? Also what role do preview LUTs and gamma assist have here when working in Cine EI mode. I'm just starting to move away from PP11!!
You can set in the monitoring section of the Fx6 whether you want to send the slog3 footage over HDMI or SDI to your EXTERNAL monitor (which doesn’t change at all when you change the EI value) or the signal with the LUT applied (which changes when you change the EI value). So you can decide what you want to monitor.
Sorry, no. I use Davinci Resolve. But I‘m sure there are plenty of videos on RUclips about doing this. What’s the issue you have with it? Does it look like already colorgraded because Premiere throws a LUT on it automatically?
Servus!!! „Natürlich“ habe ich auch eine Frage zum EI-Mode ( meine Kamera FX3). Verstehe ich es richtig…“der EI-Mode“ ist im Prinzip nur ein Hilfsmittel der Kamera…..ob ich EI benutze oder eben nicht …..im Prinzip kann ich auch „ganz klassisch“ manuell überbelichten…um dann in der Post das Video „dunkler zu machen“…um dann letztendlich das Rauschen besser in den Griff zu bekommen…Oder soll um am besten den EI Mode auch b benutzen um die „Fehler bei der Überbelichtung von Slog 3 Material“ zu vermeiden????ß Vielen Dank für jeden Tip! Danke
Servus! Ja, es ist nur ein Hilfsmittel wie du beschrieben hast und der aufgenommene Clip ändert sich rein gar nicht dadurch. Ich verwende es nur deswegen weil ich über HDMI das mLUT signal (also nicht das slog3 signal sondern eben das inklusive der Cine-EI Abdunklung) auch auf einen Monitor der Kamera durchschleuse. Und dort möchte ich eben sehen wie es dann in der Postproduktion aussehen wird ohne am Set ständig auf das überbelichtete Bild starren zu müssen 😉
@@RonaldKasperVielen Dank. noch eine Anschlussfrage: in der Nachbearbeitung sollen/müssen ausschließlich die Highlights „gesenkt“ werden um die Überlichtung / Rauschen zu reduzieren? Gibt es hier evtl. Eine „Faustregelung“??? Herzlichen Dank!
@@pictureworld-DG Nein, hier sollte das gesamte Signal abgedunkelt werden, nicht nur die Highlights. In Davinci Resolve gibt es dafür das Offset-Rad in den HDR-Einstellungen, das wirklich einer Reduktion des ISO-Werts gleichkommt. Ich weiß nicht ob es in Premiere etwas ähnliches gibt.
I have watched many videos on this but still don't "Get" it. I shoot with an external monitor and check false colors when I am shooting and have a LUT applied which basically does the same thing and shows me what my "end" result will be more or less. What's the difference? Is this just when you are using the cameras monitor and with out a gamma display applied? Otherwise it does not make that much sense to me or it is basically the same thing. I always shoot in my dual base ISO's manually .
Since you mentioned LUTS, I'll describe it in other words. Imagine you are on location and want to intentionally shoot a scene a bit brigher, because you want to avoid noise in the shadows. You know that you will bring down the footage in postproduction. What options do you have? You can look at the "too bright" image on your monitor but you don't really know what it will look like after you've brought it down. OR you use a LUT on your external monitor, that is designed to show the footage one stop darker. And that's exactly what you can do with Cine EI as well. It just shows your image 1, 2, 3 stops darker than you actually film it. You could do the same with a lut.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks, I do all that all manually for years and using false colors get's me where I need to. I understand the "theory" of Cine EI but I would rather set my ISO manually , over expose my scene by 1.7 or so and see what is clipping or not. I am only concerned about Skin exposure 99% of the time actually and would rather trust false colors for that. Thanks for your response by the way.
No it works with every monitor. I don’t even have a monitor with recording capabilities, I use the Atomos Shinobi. That’s all native FX6 functionalities.
I can't understand the necessity of cine ei? If it's to dark use iso 12800 and adjust with ND. If it's to bright I use iso 800 and adjust with ND. My ND almost never leaves the lens and what I see on my monitor is what I get on the file. Why make it more complicated?
If you manage to stick to ISO 800 and 12.800 you don‘t need to use cine ei. It has no advantage then. The advantage comes when you want to overexpose stuff in camera and want to see how it will look like after you’ve brought it down in post. Otherwise you have to monitor an overexposed image on set.
@@RonaldKasper I think everybody uses ND filters now, so why would you use anything but native ISO? And I don't get why you would want to overexpose anything in FX3. If you expose everything correct (using waveform, zebra or false color) and use a proper conversion LUT with a good shadow compression, you get super clean files. The files coming out of digital cameras today is so clean that we have to add glimmer glass, grain, halition and vignettes to make it look nice 😊
Thank you SO much for this! I do have a question, maybe I am just having a noob moment, but when I connect my Ninja V+ to the FX6 via SDI I get a direct feed with the menu and settings overlay from the Sony VF and when Rec using Ninja, it bakes the overlay in. I can't, for the life of me figure out what I messed up.
Hi! In the monitoring menu you can turn off sdi/hdmi output data display. I can’t habe a look right now to give you the exact name, I’m currently not at home. Then you get a clean signal with only the footage. I searched online. It should be found under „Full Menu > User > Output Display“ this has has on/off options for outputting the FX6 UI over HDMI or SDI.
I shoot news documentary and we are often at the mercy of the natural light in a scene (imagine a dim migrant shelter). If a window can't be opened, I'm used to creating more light by adjusting the camera settings, so if I'm already wide open with the aperture and I don't touch the shutter speed to preserve it's 180 angle, all I have is ISO. Does this mean that CineEI is not a good fit for this type of outside-the-studio shooting? It feels as though having only a high and low ISO setting isn't going to allow me enough control to get correctly exposed images in "wild" environments. Does this mean I should stick to Cinetone for this filed shooting? Or is there another way to film more flexibly and still see some benefits from the log format? Or perhaps I'm still misunderstanding how CineEI is to be used. Thank you!
Hi Todd! I do a lot of run and gun shooting as well and I found out that 12.800 iso is suitable for most of the conditions. In combination with the built in nd, I was able to film nighttime scenes as well as in bright sunlight. If you film in custom mode, and you raise the iso above 12.800 it is the same as if you film in 12.800 EI mode and raise the exposure in post. The camera just adds more gain to the signal, like you would do it in premiere or davinci. So there’s no benefit from using a higher iso in custom mode (or cine ei).
@@RonaldKasper Thanks Ronald, just sort of feels like a paradigm shift that I still need to wrap my head around. Maybe some more real world shooting will help. I just feel strange in that range that's between 800-12,800. My old way of thinking would say it's a bad idea to bump to 12,800 ISO when all I needed in custom mode was to put my ISO at maybe 1600 or 3200 to get a good exposure. The notion of bumping to 12,800 (!) ISO then using ND to dial it back just seems absurd (and like it would introduce way too much unnecessary noise from the high ISO) but I guess that's what you're saying one would do regularly with Cine EI. I suppose when shooting anything on real film you are locked into an ISO/ASA for the roll and don't have the ability to jump exposure around using digital ISO. Instead you have to control the light by adding or cutting with NDs or bringing in actual lights. Guess this is similar. Thanks again for explaining so well!
@@toddwiseman1421 Your comparison to film rolls nailed it. And yes, I really bump it up to 12800 and use the internal ND all the time in darker environments. I‘m working on a short „how to get clean shadows with the FX6“ RUclips Video, that‘s all about the different behaviour of the camera in 800 and 12800 ISO. Maybe you want to watch it when it comes out. Thanks and bye!
@@rasmuseriksson6805 I've already done the video about clean shadows, watch this or maybe even subscribe to my channel ;-) ruclips.net/video/7O21O9KSbMY/видео.html
This all makes sense, but I do have a question: You say that changing the EI value does not change the recorded footage whatsoever. I see that when you import the footage into Premiere, this is correct. But, in Resolve, The footage comes in with the EI value also. As a test, I filmed the same shot 3 times, raising the EI level each time. Each shot is brighter on my timeline in Resolve. Is there a setting that is making this happen?
I use Resolve as well and the EI value definitely does not change the brightness of the recorded slog3 signal. I don’t know your exact recording settings but I couldn’t reproduce your issue.
So - if I'm capturing 12800 ISO, and I'm previewing on 3200 ISO, I will retain ALL the info I get on 12800 ISO? And the same picture I will see on 3200 ISO - I will get with 12800 ISO, but lowering the brightness on post? And I will lose NO INFO in shadows?
On the FX6 go to the monitoring section of the menu and choose to send the slog3 signal over hdmi (not the „mLut“). The you see the slog3 signal on the external monitor and can activate a conversion lut to rec709 there.
@@RonaldKasper I'm still a little confused. Especially working with 2 monitors. At the moment I have an FX6 with a Cine 7 monitor. I uploaded the Phantom Slog3 to WDR pre-LUT on my FX6, with MLUT turned on for VF but OFF for SDI/HDMI. I also uploaded the same LUT to my monitor, with the LUT turned on there. Whenever I change the lower ISO/GAIN button, it only shows on the VF. Which is what I wanted. However, what I don't understand is that when I turn on the LUT on my FX6 for SDI/HDMI, the footage on my SMALLHD monitor actually looks more like raw slog footage than it looks like footage with an actual LUT. There must be something I'm doing wrong, no?
@@ThorCaes Hmm, I can't give you an adivce here, I've never loaded LUTs on my FX6 and wanted to send them to an external monitor via SDI/HDMI. So I don't know what could go wrong here. Sorry.
Hi! Yes the second one was at 77% for a whitecard and I set my first one to 44% for a greycard (18% grey). These are values when you use the s709 LUT and monitor these LUT levels as well (so sdi/hdmi output must be set to „MLUT“)
@@cjkalandek996 what he could have meant is that in film you don’t have the possibility to raise the iso. Have have to stick to the iso of the film roll, which is the same in cine ei. You habe to use a fix iso of 800 or 12.800, nothing in between is possible. But the postprocessing workflow of cine ei is a normal log workflow.
There are settings you can change, depending on what you want to see. If you want to have the SLOG3 signal on your external monitor, you can open your "quick menu" (pressing the menu button shortly) and on page 5 you set Gamut/Gamme for SDI and HDMI to "SG3C/SLog3". Then your monitor does NOT change when you change your EI settings because the EI value does not affect your recorded SLog3 signal. If you change the SDI and HDMI Output to "MLUT", the internal LUT of the FX6 and all EI-changes will be shown on the external monitor. hope that helps.
So let me get this right. The ONLY thing Ei mode does is show you how the video would look after brightening or darkening the image in post? I thought Ei mode was meant to let you set base ISO then CHOOSE whether you want to prioritise more highlight retention, or more dark retention? Is this wrong?
Your first assumption is correct. However if you change the ei value and expose differently you automatically give your highlights or your shadows more breathing room in the slog signal. I got this covered with an example shooting in the video as well!
@@RonaldKasper Right, so it does both? It gives you more breathing room in the highlights and shadows, AND shows you how it will look after post processing?
So I noticed you are seeing what you get on the built in monitor using a monitoring LUT. My question is I noticed the built in monitor doesn’t change when viewing in S-Log 3 (no lut) and changing EI value. Is that normal? I didn’t see a way to enable live view like on mirrorless cameras and I can’t find anything about this.
That's true. When you view SLOG3, the monitor CAN NOT change because the SLOG3 signal itself doesn't change at all when you change the EI value. That's the reason.
@@RonaldKasper yes! Thank you. You are the first person to actually answer that for me. Is that true for white balance too because I don’t see the change?
I’m not sure why but in Cine EI on the fx3 when I change the EI it changes the exposure on both the camera monitor and my Ninja V. Any thoughts about this?
Yes you can change this in the „Shooting“ settings. At least there it’s on the Fx6. In the menu for „Sdi/Hdmi“ you can choose if you want to show (and monitor) the internal 709 LUT (which I did in my example) or the slog3 signal (which never changes when you change the EI value). So if you want to NOT show your EI changes on your external monitor, switch the LUT for SDI/HDMI off
Yes, the FX6 has an electronic variable ND. with the FX30 and FX3 you could simply screw on a variable ND filter on the lens, like a PolarPro, Tiffen or K&F concept.
So you would try not to use a EI level lower than what you have set the base ISO to? I am still learning the cine ei so forgive me, but what purpose would cine ei if you don’t lower it lower than base iso? Like what purpose would it serve to film at base 800 and then have the EI set higher?
That‘s the main mistake I made in this video. This one sentence. I showed every example correctly but my sentence to sum it up was wrong. I already wrote the correction in the video description and pinned a first comment with the correction. Correct is: Don’t use an EI value HIGHER than your base ISO.
Thank you so much for the reply, I was hoping that was your answer because I have been struggling with the whole Cine EI set up. This helps tremendously. Thanks again.
@@RonaldKasper Glad I found this comment. I watched and it all made sense then when it got to that sentence, I was more confused than when it started lol
@BrandonBLysticLee I put the correction im the pinned comment and in the videodescription. i hoped everybody could find it there. Sorry for the confusion caused by this sentence 😉
Hallo Ronald! Stupid question. If i change EI , both Screens change . In your case its just the cameras Display not the Fieldmonitor? Whats my mistake? Greets from Austria :-)
Servus! I write in English just because others might be interested as well: You can change in the monitoring sections which signal you want to send over hdmi (or sdi) to the monitor. In my case I sent the Slog signal (without the lut) but you for sure set it that you send the signal with the baked in LUT. Schöne Grüße nach Österreich aus Österreich 😉
@@RonaldKasper uff :-) my Monitor is a cheap Feelworld F5proX where I can import LUTs. But now I know what to check out in the specs of this Monitor. But I think the Monitor is just an alternativ to the small FX 30 Display - and nothing more :-) besten Dank! :-)
Hey quick question, how do you get the image on the monitor to not change with the cine ei? I have an fx30 and everytime I change the ei value it changed on both the camera monitor and external monitor. Is it a setting of that specific monitor?
Hi! On the FX6 you can set which signal you want to send to the external monitor. That's in the SDI/HDMI settings. I chose that the SLOG3 signal should be sent to the external monitor (I don't use the internal s709 LUT that I use for the internal monitor of the FX6). So on the monitor I simply add a phantom LUT to convert the SLOG3 to REC709. But since the SLOG3 signal doesn't change when you change the EI value, the external monitor doesn't change as well.
There is no ISO setting if you are shooting in Cine EI, ISO is only available if your shooting S-Cinetone? So I cant see how you can have an EI value greater than your ISO when ISO is not available to set.
Of course the camera uses an ISO value for recording in cone EI. You can’t record „without“ ISO. But you have to stick to either 800 or 12.800 which are the base ISO values in which the sensor operates the best.
In Cine EI it's gain (DB) in S- Cinetone it's ISO. But my point is you said "Never use an EI value that's HIGHER than your ISO" But there isn't two independent ISO values that you can set simultaneously one higher or lower from each other? Unless you mean not to use an EI value that is higher than the base Iso of 800 or 12,800? @@RonaldKasper
@@simoncohen8572 that‘s not true. ISO is nothing else than a calculated value out of your used base ISO in combination with your gain. You can set in camera if you want to show the gain values or the ISO values. What do you mean with „second independent value“? Of course you can set that, that’s what the EI value is all about. It’s an exposure index that displays your filmed footage at another exposure. It might be easier if you think of it as a lut that you throw on your camera monitor, that does nothing else than darkening the originally filmed footage
I'm just referring to your sentence which basically means dont use an iso higher than your iso, this is whats confusing me? Its a bit like saying make sure your camera on the tripod isnt higher than the other camera on the tripod when you only have one camera on a tripod. Where is this other iso that shouldnt be higher than your iso?@@RonaldKasper
@@simoncohen8572 I think you really misunderstood my explanations in the video. The EI value is NOT the same as the used ISO. Again: The camera records in ISO 800. If you set the EI value to 400, it STILL records in ISO 800 but shows the image on the camera monitor DARKER (as if it would be recorded with ISO 400). That way you can overexpose your footage a bit when it is very dark. You do this so that the dark parts aren't so noisy (you record them brighter than they are and bring down the whole footage by one stop in postproduction). That's a common thing and a quite basic concept, you do with most of the cameras out there. But with other cameras, you have to look at the much too bright image on set, you don't really know if the mood in the darkened endresult will be correct. The advantage with Cine CI is now, that you can already see at the camera monitor, how it will look like after you've brought it down one stop. Is it clear now?
You can’t control exposure with a single Rec709 LUT. Unless of course you have LUTs with different exposure corrections (-1 stop, -2 stops). Then you can do it that way as well. But why? Sony has this functionality built in.
@@RonaldKasper Maybe I still don't understand. I thought the whole point of your video was saying you're not controlling exposure with Cine EI; You're just previewing what your video will look like after you bring down the exposure in post. Wouldn't a rec 709 lut do that? It might not be able to show you various stops of exposure, but it'll give you a ballpark idea. So is Cine EI just a more tuned in, precise version of that or am I missing something?
@@bryanwendland235 maybe we’re talking about the same thing already, but I try it in different words. Yes you’re right, cine EI lets you view the image like it will look like after you brought it down in post. So you can record it one or two stops brighter to get less noise but you already see how your result will look like. How would you do that with a rec709 LUT that shows you the same exposure as the one you are recording right now?
@@RonaldKasper a rec.709 lut would not show you the same exposure as what you're looking at in slog 3. A proper slog3 to rec.709 lut will show your slog footage (relatively) "properly" exposed. *EDIT* Sony's own video about their own rec.709 LUT say this, too, so it's not just me. *EDIT* To me it seems like the benefit of Cine EI is just the control you have over how many stops of underexposure you're previewing vs a LUT.
@@bryanwendland235 yes of course a conversion LUT shows the correct exposure, but just the same exposure as what you record. Cine EI is about recording a DIFFERENT exposure than what you see on screen.
You can not lower the ISO when you set a base ISO of 800. it’s just 800. what you can do is overexposing by 1 stop and bringing down the footage in post by one stop to get cleaner shadows.
@@zarias2009 you are not lowering the ISO technically, you are lowering the EI value, so only the brightness of the monitor. Your monitor shows the image as if you would record with ISO 200, in reality the slog3 signal is recorded with ISO 800 and looks much brighter than what you see on your camera screen. In post, you have to bring down the footage so that it looks as dark as on your camera screen and the positive effect of thisball is that you get cleaner shadows. And yes, that’s totally a good way to record dark scenes that have nonreal highlights in them. If there were a lot of highlights as well, they would start clipping earlier with a lower EI value, as explained in the video.
It’s the same until you are happy with the exposure on either 800 or 12.800. But when you need to overexpose to bring the levels down in postproduction, you see a much too bright image on the screen of the a7siii. With cine ei you see exactly how your endresult will look like after you’ve brought it down by (let’s say) 2 stops. Just choose an ei value 2 stops under your current exposure (let’s say 200 instead of 800). By the way, the A7siii has a first base iso of 640, not 800.
Totally lost. Was hoping this would help me understand the mode on my FX6. The base is set to 800, but how do I set the high to 12800? Also, when I togged between the L/M/H the screen doesn't increase in brightness. what am I doing wrong?
Hi! Since these are very basic questions, I would highly recommend that you read this excellent description from Alister Chapman before you use the camera: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/
@@RonaldKasper very basic? Then can you not help? Can I not toggle from 800 to 12800 using the ISO switch on the side of my FX6? Additionally, when jumping from the different EI’s there’s no increase of screen brightness. Went through Chapmans notes. Still not getting anywhere. Can no one help?
@@propellavideo You can change the Base ISO in your menu. The little metal switch on the side is for changing the EI value in the currently selected base ISO. The iso doesn't change when you change the EI. And the reason that your screen doesn't change when you change the EI value is, that you probably haven't selected "MLUT" in HDMI/SDI output in your menu. You need this, otherwise the screen brightness doesn't change depending on your selected EI value. Does this help?
@@RonaldKasper we’re getting somewhere! Thank you! So even for the FX6 included monitor, you have to select MLUT etc? I thought would only be for external additional monitors? Or is it also for the included monitor? I feel this is now helping 👍🏻
@@propellavideo The waveform you see on your FX6-monitor gives you the signal from what you transfer via HDMI/SDI. So you have to set the LUT there and the internal FX6-monitor shows you the waveform of your signal AFTER THE LUT was applied. If you remove the lut from the hdmi/sdi output setting, your waveform shows you the values of the recorded SLOG3 signal. And yes, the EI-value is related to this as well. It only works when a lut is set for hdmi/sdi.
I usually shoot on the GH5 from Panasonic, and I now got the Sony FS7, but the shooting process is so different. I think it is really hard to understand the EI. I really don’t see why we have the EI if it does not change the recorded image? If EI lowered or increased it is because my monitor is too dark and thereby also my recording. Can you help me understand easier? 😊🙏
It’s explained in the video. A lot of times we have to overexpose slog3 on set right? Because we record something dark and want to get clean shadows. In postproduction we lower the exposure of the footage that was shot brighter to get the darker image we want, but with the cleaner shadows. So far so good. But if we record it brighter on set, the image in the camera monitor is brighter as well and you do not really see how it will look after the exposure was brought down. And that’s why we need cine ei, it pretty much lets us „preview“ how the image will look after we’ve lowered it. Clear now?
@@RonaldKasper Okay yes that is better, thanks. So if the FS7 native iso is 2000. Would you use EI of 800 as a standard to ensure an overexposed image of 1.something?
@@Nqrgaard I‘ve never worked with the FS7 but with the FX6 I only need to overexpose with the second base ISO of 12.800. with the first base iso of 800 the shadows are very clean straight out of camera without overexposing.
Ah super, ein Nachbar meldet sich! 👍 Yes it takes some time to switch from a mirrorless camera to the FX6 Nd understand it totally, but it is a beast of a camera!
Hi! What do you mean? How I set up my room with the lights? That's all pretty standard: An aputure Amaron 200x keylight, a P60c fill-light, a Godox TL60 tubelight on the shelf and two Aputure MCs on the shelf. I think a whole video about this might be too boring ;-)
I just tested this on my FX6 and the histogram and waveform on the camera both remain locked when I adjust the EI. I’m using a LUT on the viewfinder but not the SDI or Internal Rec.
Its totally bizarre, because you lower the EI value to show required look but still need to add light to raise the white point which then raises exposure so you then you adjust EI again and then add more light to raise white point.... it makes no sense.
@@IanSnape the explanation is totally fine. It explains why you use dynamic range in the highlights when you lower the EI value AND CORRECTLY EXPOSE for middle grey at a certain brightness level. Because the level of middle grey is risen towards the brightest area the camera can capture with each lowering of the ei value.
My waveform won't change when I change the EI on my camera monitor. Why is this? What setting do I need to change? Also, for everyone watching: You need to have a LUT imported into your camera to see a change on your monitor when changing the exposure index. If you are monitoring in a raw SLOG image, the EI won't change a thing visually.
Hi! That is correct and very clear. Remember, the recorded SLOG3 signal doesn't change at all by changing the Cine EI value, so if you are viewing SLOG 3 on your monitor, of course nothing changes when you change the Cine EI value. You have to activate the LUT on the screen (either the standard s709 LUT that's preinstalled on the camera or any third-party LUT) to see changes when you switch the Cine EI value. But some people always want to see the waveform of the recordecd SLOG3 signal, so it's definitely not wrong to have no LUT on the monitor. It just depends on what you want to see there.
@@dny00001 Do you have "MLUT" on on the SDI/HDMI output? This is necessary setting so that the waveform changes. If you only have it on the viewfinder, the waveform does NOT change.
I still don’t get it. You overexpose the image but display a darker image? What’s the point? Visualisation? Don’t you clip the highlights by overexposing the scene by two stops?
Exactly, I display a darker image. The point us that you need to overexpose in darker environments when you want clean shadows. Like shown in the video.
And here it is. Cine EI only lets you film in your base ISO value, let's say this is 800. Lowering the EI from 800 to 400 is like applying monitoring-LUTs on your camera's monitor. They show the image one stop darker (like it was filmed with 400 ISO) but the camera still records in 800. That way you can overexpose what you are filming a bit (by recording it with the bright value of 800) but already see what it will look like after you've brought it down in your editing software by one stop (so that it looks like filmed with 400). That "bring down in post" is very helpful when you film in dark environments. Filming it brighter and reducing the brightness in post gets you cleaner shadows.
Yes because you primarily need it in darker environments. Outdoor the EI value should be the same as the ISO. In very rare cases, you could raise the EI value to something higher than the ISO, what happens is that what you see on screen is brighter than what you record. You basically record an underexposed footage then. I honestly I did never use these settings because there was no need for it.
CORRECTION! At 3:48 I of course meant "Never use an EI value thats HIGHER than your ISO". Thanks!
That makes sense. I was confused at first when you stated "never use EI value lower than your ISO". Thanks for your concise explanation about EI.
Was about to comment this. Haha. Great video. Let me know how your workaround is if you have 1) A Atomos Ninja attached to the camera through HDMI Signal - AND 2) An external monitor through SDI. Whenever I change the EI on the Fx6, the Ninja + External SDI Monitor change brightness based of the EI. I know I can apply a LUT to the Atomos Ninja, but my SDI Monitor can't have LUTS Applied.
So; As far as I'm aware, there's no way to turn off the LUT (EI) Signal on one of those signals. Correct me if I'm wrong. Highly appreciate your video. :)
@@sondreformolindheim7108 Alister Chapman made a pretty useful video about monitoring signals and LUTs and how to apply them to different outputs. Maybe this here can help: ruclips.net/video/hBllC9TUKJk/видео.html
@@RonaldKasper First time I've discovered your channel - I reply and you reply back in just a few minutes after my reply. THANK YOU! I'll look into the video right now. Much of love from Norway.
@@sondreformolindheim7108 good luck with the video, hope you find an answer there. Sending love back to Norway! Cheers!
Finally a channel that doesn’t drag out the information for a 10 minute video to appease the algorithm
Thanks! And yes, I often get bored as well when I have to watch for 5 minutes before a video gets interesting. Let’s keep them short 😉
The clearest sign that exposure isn't changing, is by enabling auto-ND and watching eND NOT changing when changing EI value! Great video for a new FX6 user, thanks!
The best explanation of Cine EI mode is think of it as 1. Yes, you first expose your image as you normally do without changing EI at all while keeping at base ISO 2. Now think of different scenario of brighter or darker scene where whilst exposing (again) as you normally would but you have in back of mind that I want to retain the highlights or shadows by adjusting in post but you are not sure if the image exposed well enough to retain those in post, this is where you just crank up/down EI temporarily and just check on screen if you have those informations or not to be able to do in post. Also that amount of EI up/down can be stored in metadata so that one can achieve exact that in post while grading. Hope this helps.
it didn't help.
It helped a lot thank you
Ahhh. So what you’re saying is...
Using those “EI stops” either up or down - shows you virtually whether or not you have data to retain and what it would look like if you boost or cut in post?
Effectively?
Yes, that’s basically it.
Yes!
Cine EI lets you preview your desired final exposure when shooting in S-LOG3 - AGAIN, you clearly explained in minutes what others took an hour to make confusing! Danke
Thanks a lot Chris! I‘m happy you liked it!
Would you mind making more videos about the Sony FX6. I would actually love to see a video about your steps in adjusting to get the perfect look using the nature lighting in any situation
Hi! yes, I will for sure make some more videos about my new Fx6.
@@RonaldKasper thanks man make sure to tag me
Thanks you so much. I’ve watched several videos on CINE EI and they show how to use it, but don’t give a proper understanding of what it actually does. Your video is great, it sums it up perfectly! 🙂👍🎥
Thanks a lot, I‘m happy when it was helpful! I have several other videos about image noise or custom mode vs Cine Ei on my channel, maybe you‘re interested in these as well.
Excellent video. Using the two monitors was a great way to explain it.
Thanks, I‘m happy you liked it!
great video! So many people try to explain this but most videos only explain in fragments. This is very thorough, thank you!
Oh thanks, it means a lot to me
I finally understand how this works after almost a year of figuring it out. I though an ISO invariant sensor is needed for this but no. This feature can be achieved with a monitor that you can load LUTs into that adjust exposure -3EV to +3EV. Aka exposure correction luts.
-1EV on a LUT is like EI400 and -2EV IS EI200. +2EV is EI3200.
My 11 year old camera can take advantage of this same thing
Yes, that’s basically correct. But with cine EI you don’t need an external monitor for it. If you have a camera that lets you load correction luts on it, it would even work without cine EI directly in camera.
Perfect video to explain Cine Ei! Simple! I know how to use it but it’s this time is so easy to understand in a video.
But you could over expose with Cine EI. Exemple : ISO 800 by 2 stops if you want expose a mountain (with snow) to get more dynamic range in highlight 😊
Thanks Emmanuel for your comment! And yes, in some situations it could eveb be useful to use a higher EI that ISO, but that's really only in situations that are very bright. Like the mountain-environment with snow you mentioned. But normally you're good to leave EI under the ISO value.
@@RonaldKasper and yet in this video you are saying the complete opposite, major fail 03:47
@@petrub27 I mentioned that mistake in the description and in the pinned comment.
Is there a reason to use cine ei if you can just do the editing in post? Does it actually change anything?
Iso doesn’t affect exposure it affects the perception of exposure. The only “iso” that matters is the native iso. Shoot at native iso you can raise it to whatever you want by iso or in your NLE and it will have the same amount of noise. Changing the iso for exposure is a videographers tool to bake in exposure changes not expecting to grade anything. If you are going to color correct the footage where 99% of pros will (including videographers now) changing iso isn’t useful. Shoot at the native and adjust exposure with t-stop,light output & ND like you’re supposed to do. Shutter angle obviously messes with motion blur so kinda locked into that but those are your tools. This just removes iso control forcing you to do what you should have been doing already
Yes, all this is automatically fulfilled when you use the cine ei mode
Just getting started with all this and trying to cram as much knowledge in my brain as possible. The video helped me a lot, still I have one question left.
When using a greycard in a try to expose correct I would try to line up the waveform with the "dedicated" line - white: 70% grey 40% black 20%. Am I doing this on the SLOG Footage so without EI dropped down or monitor it with "the look I want"?
Maybe another example is necessary: I want to overexpose the image for less noise in the final image so I either drop the ND or add more light. My EI is still at 800 - now my footage is overexposed a bit, but when I drop the EI to 400 or another stop lower it looks like I want it too look. Now if I then want to check the exposure and set a greycard as reference would I "adjust" the exposure as needed while looking on the waveforms of the 400 EI look or the 800EI look?
You have to expose for the final look, so when you lower the EI to 400, then you expose for white/middle grey at that value, not at the original slog3 values (EI 800).
Because the EI400 is what you will see in your finished footage.
Davinci Resolve even overtakes the EI value now when you import the footage, so you will exactly see how it looked like with the applied EI value in camera. There’s no need to take the extra step and bring it down in post. And that’s why you need to adjust your values for the final look.
@@RonaldKasperMakes sense, thank you very much!
Just switched to Sony system and this is the video I needed. Thank you man!
You‘re welcome! And have fun with your Sony camera!
Agreed. The BEST explanation out there in a minefield of a topic! Bravo!! 🙌🏼 and thank you!!
Thanks man, I really appreciate it!
True to the title of the video, I have UNDERSTOOD Cine EI 😎Thanks for the excellent video!
Thats‘s great! Thanks for your comment!
You have pulled me from the frying pan and served me well done
Thanks! Great to know that I saved a life today 😉
Yep hands down the best explainer of Cine EI!
Thanks a lot! And happy new year!🎆
Thank you for this breakdown. Clear, concise and to the point. Well done.
Thanks a lot!
The Cine EI mode seems to be so complicated until you understand it. Thanks a lot! Finally it makes sense in my head
Yes it does at first, but after you used it a few times you wonder why you didn’t understand it at the beginning 😉
Well, now you can maybe help me with this: Ive got a FX6. And if i change the EI values nothing is changing. The Monitor is not changing its "iso" at all. And yes i have different values at L M and H. Might be a LUT i think@@RonaldKasper
@@PeGenerqizR are you in the EI mode even? If yes, check your monitoring settings in the quick menu. You need to set the viewfinder to „mlut“ to be able to see the changes on the fx6 screen. I made another video about comparing custom mode vs EI mode where you can see what you have to set in the menu.
ruclips.net/video/0i0I7IcSosg/видео.html
@@RonaldKasper yes I am actually. I will check the MLut setting on Monday. I think this will resolve the problem! Thank you very much! Your videos are awesome!
The best explanation so far on youtube. Thank you!
Thanks! I really appreciate it!
thank you for this video, I am almost at 100% understanding here. Can I ask why you set the zebra to 77%. This is what is confusing me as many are saying to set at 95, or 94 or 93
I am monitoring my signal after the 709 LUT is applied, so these are the recommended values from sony for white values. I found that in this video: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/?amp=1
@@RonaldKasper thank you very much!
Thanks for sharing knowledge.. For FX3, i increaes apeture to adjust exposure instead of ND filters while shooting at 12800 iso. Hope thats ok.
If you increase the aperture you loose depth of field. Depth of field means that the foreground is sharp and the background isn’t. If that’s ok for your composition, then your method is fine.
Dude omg this is it right here watched soooo many people try and explain this and I did not get what the point was. Now I do. Sub.
Thanks a lot for your comment, I’m glad you liked the video and welcome to the channel! 🎆
Awesome! So with Cine EI, are you still recording in log technically too?
Yes, that’s correct!
so basically, the different cine ei's are just luts? Thats it? the iso is always one of the two base ISOs and whatever Cine EI you change it to is like changing the LUT you are looking at?
Yes, exactly!
This!!! Yes, I was trying to think.. which wasn’t mentioned.. having the lut on is the most important small detail to get the “final” look in terms of using Cine EI. Because you won’t really tell a huge difference if everything is shown in regular SLog without a lut. The lut, on, will show you the corrected image with cine ei, although you’re recording overexposed.
That’s what I’m getting from this, but I just didn’t hear was mentioned.
That lut, is key.
(At least I think lol)
@@LorenzoHines. the LUT „on“ makes that you see the exposure lines in the waveform after the LUT was applied. Otherwise it would show the slog3 exposure. And yes, for correcting the exposure with a whitecard like I‘ve shown, this is necessary.
So it's basically a kind of monitoring option that helps you expose properly by giving you control on what would be visible under what lighting situation by giving you the possibility to expose relative to your Native ISO, so that you don't miss what kind of lighting in your scene and exposure that you want?
Yes, or even easier: it’s like an exposure lut.
@@RonaldKasper Coming from a Panasonic GH5 I am going through hell right now with the menu's and clarity on what is going on with my shot and settings... Seriously considering selling the FX30 again for a S5IIX. Hope it gets easier.
It’s the same when I have a Panasonic in my hands 😉
Thank you for this very short and instructive video. The only thing i do not find is the function or button where i can change the exposure of the screen only (2:35) without affecting the HDMi output. thank you
Hi! You can change this in the "monitoring" section of the menu. Set "SDI/HDMI" to Slog3 and set "VF" to "MLUT". That way, the lut is only applied for the internal camera monitor and your EI-values change the monitor exposure. But on the SDI/HDMI outputs, the SLOG3 signal is sent so this exposure doesn't change.
thank you, in the monitoring section i do not see the place where i can set SDI/HDMI to Slog3 ? same for VF to MLUT ? i scrolled all the menu. can you point the place ?
@@RonaldKasper
@@obmedias It's possible that you are in custom mode. Switch to the full menu (longpress menu button) and switch to Cine EI first. You can do that under "USER" - "Base Setting" - "Shooting mode" = "Cine EI". Then you enter the quick menu (leave full menu and press menu button quickly) and go to page 5. In there is my "Monitoring" Section where I can change Gamut/Gamma of SDI/HDMI to "MLUT off". If you do this you see "SG3C/SLOG3" afterwards in the setting. Strangely I couldn't find find these settings in the full menu. If you do, please tell me ;-) Thanks!
i do not understand where is what you can do that i can't ! i'm in Cine EI already but the rest (to simulate the color grading in the VF i do not see where you set the HDMI / SDI to Slog3... @@RonaldKasper
@@obmediasstrange, I already explained that in detail in the last message. Can’t you see this on page 5 in the quick menu???
Clearest Cine EI explanation out there, thanks! So the Waveform DOES change while lowering EI below base/native, doesn't stay on the original native iso. Would you suggest overexposing on base iso 800 for cleaner shadows as well?
The Waveform on the monitor only changes, if you are monitoring the MLUT signal (not the SLOG3 signal). You can change this when you set "MLUT" in the SDI/HDMI output setting. If you use SLOG there, you are really monitoring the unchanged SLOG3 value that is recorded. And this does NOT change as we've heard in the video. So this is important to see a change in the waveform. The recording always stays on the native ISO, only the screen brightness does not when you set SDI/HDMI to "MLUT". In 800 ISO mode, I don't overexpose because I don't feel the need. The shadows are pretty clean out of camera. But I always overexpose by 1 stop when I use ISO 12.800. Maybe my newest video where I talk about noise is interesting for you as well: ruclips.net/video/7O21O9KSbMY/видео.html
@@RonaldKasper Thanks a lot!
How did you set your ninja to only display what is actually being recorded?
Thank you!!
Hi! You can change this in the "monitoring" section of the menu. Set "SDI/HDMI" to Slog3 and set "VF" to "MLUT". That way, the lut is only applied for the internal camera monitor and your EI-values change the monitor exposure. But on the SDI/HDMI outputs, the SLOG3 signal is sent so this exposure doesn't change.
I am curious on how to use catalyst browse to how to adjust ISO to get the right exposure in running gun situations. I do not want to manually change the exposure but instead access the metadata.
I’m guessing this is possible. Can you make a video on that. Explaining the workflow?
I’m guessing we will see a better picture quality doing it this way instead of using flexible ISO in camera. 🤔
Hi! No this is not possible, don't confuse LOG with RAW. Only in RAW footage you can change the ISO. Catalyst browse does not allow you to do this with FX6 footage (unless you record it in RAW with an external recorder). What you can change in Catalyst browse is just metadata like flags, title, creator and description of the clip.
Took me a couple watch through then it clicked. Thank you.
Thanks for not giving up! 👍
Hi Ronald, Super video! Still i feel a little confused (probably that's just me) When for instance recording at high base ISO and lowering the EI value, you still need to make sure that on the non EI monitor the scene isn't overexposed?
I now understand that you can lower the EI value to preview a 'closer to final product' image, but it's not really clear what the process is to expose the actual recorded image. How many stops can we overexpose, or do we just overexpose and make sure it's not blown out? Would we do this with the internal VND's or through other methods?
You probably already explained this in others wors in the video, but this EI concept just totally eludes me... Thanks!
I think your thoughts about this are too complex. In my example you see that I recorded the deer and the crocodile with EI 3200, but I still recorded it with ISO 12.800. That means the FX6-screen shows how the image would look like when it was filmed with ISO 3200. On that image (that should be our final result), the white-level would be very dark, if we only bring down the EI but don't do anything else. Since we want our white to have a correct level in the end-footage, we need to brighten the scene or lower the ND. So in your recorded SLOG3 footage you bring up the white level more to 100% as you can see in the last part of the video. So the whole image is recorded much brighter, but this is NEEDED because you want to bring down everything in postproduction so that it looks like what was shown on the screen of the FX6. And then your whites have the needed levels in the endresult, although they were recorded buch brighter.
your question of how much you can overexpose is difficult. Depends on the scene. But in my tests, where I brought the white level to 77% on the screen with the s709 LUT, I could easily drop down the EI by two stops. Then I re-exposed and brought up the whitelevel by two stops to again 77%. That means I overexposed by two stops and it was no problem.
Great video! Thank you! I have a question for you regarding your Gin & Tonic video which by the way is awesome! Do you think that I could achieve similar cinematic results shooting with my Fx6 and a Sony 24-70 2.8 lens or a 50 micro prime Sony lens and a slider? Also do you have more videos in general on exposure?
Hi! Thank you for your comment! Yes of course, a 24-70 lens is fine, I shoot most of my stuff with a Sigma 24-70 (or a Sony 35mm f1.8). I have another video which is called „Avoid Noise with Sony Cinema Cameras“, which is all about exposure as well. Maybe check it out! Bye!
@@RonaldKasper awesome thank you so much! Looking forward to. checking out more videos!
Can you tell me if this is correct? You only have 2 Base ISOs that you can choose from in Cine EI. When changing the EI values in your camera you're not actually changing anything with the exposure of your real image file... it only changes how you see the image in your monitor. The reason to adjust your EI values are only for you to see how to adjust the exposure through lighting, ND, or Aperture, So if you want clean shadows you lower your EI value. This darkens the scene in your monitor and you realize you need to bring in more lights for your subject to be properly exposed because everything has gotten darker. Then when you bring this footage into your grading software all looks overexposed. But you'll just bring down the exposure to correctly expose your subject and your shadows will be clean! Is this correct?
This is exactly correct. Although the new Davinci Resolve already takes the EI value and sets it in the „RAW“ page of the color tab. So it automatically darkens it for you. Of course you can adjust this darkening to your liking.
@@RonaldKasper That's cool!
Super great, thank you. Can I just clarify, shooting on an FX3 for example with SLOG3 and cine EI mode, should you always overexpose at least +2.0? For best colour grade and output? Thanks!
It all depends on the scot scene, but if there are no harsh highlights I need to protect, I overexpose by half a stop in the lower base iso. The results are fine without overexposing much. In the higher base iso (12.800) I overexpose about +1.7 otherwise I get too much noise.
im curious how you got the two yellow lines on your exposure meter graph at 3:19 and also what values you recommend to set for those markers, thanks!
Hi! These are the lines for the zebra values I set in camera. The lower one (value=45%) is for middle grey snd the upper one (value=77%) is for white areas. These values have been suggested by Alister Chapman and the detailed explanation can be found here: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/?amp=1
Just received my FX6 last week! It was so confusing at first as the sensor is a great low light performer.
I got it last week as well ;-) And I really like that it doesn‘t denoise the footage as the A7siii that I used before.
Awsome .. and more videos about FX3 please
The first part announced as a simplification approach is obviously attractive and makes you want to go further. What I understood is that any modification of the EI does not change the setting of the recording. ? Then cine EI is useful for the purpose of recovering information or details either in the highlights or in the shadows by changing first the exposure, then to modify the appearance of the image of the monitor (cine EI ) by playing on several stops in order to obtain an image in accordance with our initial wishes. Right ?
In fact you're offsetting your LUT to see the offset that you'll have to do in post to bring the clip into a normal range.
And my question is how can we see, the difference between the two setting ? in any matter, in the metadata but may be as well in Catalyst Browse ??
When I change the EI on my display and then read it on my lap top, it looks the same than the cine EI display on my monitor and not the recording clip ??
Yes, you summarized it very well. I don't know exactly what you mean with "how can we see, the difference between the two setting", but I assume you mean how you see it in postproduction. The answer is: You don't. The EI value is not recorded in the footage or shown in any setting of the footage as far as I know. You have to bring it manually down the the correct exposure, there is no automation behind this (not even in catalyst browse).
Please can we see a photo of your equipment storage shelf???
😂 I‘d put one in here but I can’t post photos in the comments. What exactly are you interested in? You mean the shelf in the right part of the background? There are just a buch of aputure and godox bags basically. The „interesting“ stuff is in the cupboard 😉
Thank you! I feel like I ALMOST understand haha. I'm a currently A7S3 user so can't really try this out myself, so does the EI mode kinda "replace" your ISO? Meaning you can't adjust ISO values in EI mode? Where do you pick the recorded EI level? I mean if you lower the EI value shown in the video doesn't that just do the exact same thing as lowering the ISO? This is unless the camera always records 12800 if you like set it in the menu somewhere and changing the EI on the monitor is just an viewing exposure value like you described in the beginning. 😅
Hi! No the ISO does not replace the ISO. Like shown in the Video, you only have 2 ISO values available in EI mode. If you set the camera to 12.800 and the EI value to 12.800, you see on the screen exactly what you record. If you lower the EI value to 3.200, then you still record everything in 12.800 ISO but the screen looks darker, like if you have choosen 3.200 ISO. That‘s a nice tool for overexposing a bit to get cleaner shadows, but I explain that exactly in the video.
@@RonaldKasper Great, thank you Ronald!
Thank you for this easy to understand explanation! :D
You are welcome Stefan, I’m happy it helped. Thank you for your comment!
If I use a LUT like the Leeming LUT PRO in post, that actually brings the footage, I think two stops down and even use it with the monitor as a custom LUT wouldnt the cine EI be useless?
Well if you exactly want to overexpose by two stops then you’re right. But with cine ei you can quickly change the stops of overexposure (1/2 stop, 1 stop, 1 1/2 stop) which could be more convenient than changing the LUTs. Otherwise, the result should be nearly the same if the LUT is good and if you stay in the base ISOs of the camera.
@@RonaldKasperMuch appreciated my friend :)
Question ? If you are filming In the dark how do you over expose?
What exactly do you mean? You can see that in the video at 1:41
If we select EMBED LUT - & run it during the shoot - is it disable-able in Post? ((with any colour grading software? Davinci or sony's grader))
Hi! No, an embedded LUT is baked into the footage and is not removable in post.
Is there exposure lut that you can record two stops higher and view the screen darker ?
Therre surely is one that you can use with other cameras, the FX6 has cine ei for that purpose
I am usually doing shoots in less controlled lighting - my question - is it better for me to still use one of the native ISO's of the sensor and adjust exposure up/down in post - or expose 'properly' in camera by changing my ISO and doing digital noise reduction in Davinci Resolve? I am afraid that either under or over exposing at the native ISO in the Cine EI more will leave me with either blown highlights or lost shadow detail that can never be recovered. At least if the data is there doing noise reduction in post gives you a shot at rescuing the image... Thanks!
Using a lower EI value than ISO is the same as overexposing with a mirrorless camera. I wouldn’t say this gives you blown out highlights necessarily, but if you need a lot of dynamic range in your image, it could be of course. I typically stay at the native ISOs and didn’t adjust the cine EI too often in real shooting scenarios. What needs to be said though is, that raising the exposure in post has it‘s limitations especially when you work with dark footage. Because it only adds gain to an already noisy image. Cine ei (which is only a tool for controlled overexposure) can really help in these conditions to get an image you couldn’t create in post.
Hi Ronald,
According to what I see in this video Sony FX6 monitor and Ninja monitor have different color balances. Ninja's monitor has yellow/green (warm) cast. Is this bother you? Or we should care less?
Or do we have to calibrate Ninja?
Thank You
Hi! Yes you are right, they differ quite a bit. I don’t care too much about the color shift although a calibration would definitely be a good idea. I‘m a lazy „fix it in post“ guy although I rely more on the big screen to be honest. and it looks pretty good after I‘ve put in in Davinci.
@@RonaldKasper Thank You
I do the same - „fix it in the post“...
It still bothers me anyway that something is not perfect, but the Atomos made the calibration process such an expensive pain, that I decided to invest in something better... Something that allows me to see better without the obstruction of ambient light.
@@nayshuler I see, do you already know what you will buy? I’m always interested in testing new stuff 😉
When you switch to a lower ei value, your display exposure graph aldo shows lower values. Mine doesnt. Id like to be able to use the graph to expose correctly after having dialed in a lower ei value.
You can change what your waveform shows in the monitoring section of the FX6 menu. You can choose between the slog 3 signal and a lut that you can apply to the base signal. Probably you monitor the slog 3 signal which never changes when you lower the EI value.
Hi Ronald
I know I'm late to the party. But for some reason, when Im in cine EI mode, when I lower the ISO on my camera my Shinobi also changes the exposure. As per your video when you brought the cine ei exposure your monitor didn't change. What am I doing wrong?
Don’t worry, the party is still going on 😉
When your external monitor changes as well, you have probably set the HDMI output signal to „mLUT“. You can change this in the SDI/HDMI output settings. If you use SLOG there, you are really monitoring the unchanged SLOG3 value that is recorded, like I did it in the video.
But if you use an ND filter and use your correction LUTs on the monitor, doesn’t that just do the exact same thing if you only use 800 or 12800 when you shoot?
No. With an nd filter you reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor. With EI mode you don’t.
If you are using levels or false colour will the readout be based on the true EI value or the simulated EI value? Also what role do preview LUTs and gamma assist have here when working in Cine EI mode. I'm just starting to move away from PP11!!
You can set in the monitoring section of the Fx6 whether you want to send the slog3 footage over HDMI or SDI to your EXTERNAL monitor (which doesn’t change at all when you change the EI value) or the signal with the LUT applied (which changes when you change the EI value). So you can decide what you want to monitor.
Can you do a video on bringing your footage into Premiere 2024!?
Sorry, no. I use Davinci Resolve. But I‘m sure there are plenty of videos on RUclips about doing this.
What’s the issue you have with it? Does it look like already colorgraded because Premiere throws a LUT on it automatically?
Servus!!! „Natürlich“ habe ich auch eine Frage zum EI-Mode ( meine Kamera FX3). Verstehe ich es richtig…“der EI-Mode“ ist im Prinzip nur ein Hilfsmittel der Kamera…..ob ich EI benutze oder eben nicht …..im Prinzip kann ich auch „ganz klassisch“ manuell überbelichten…um dann in der Post das Video „dunkler zu machen“…um dann letztendlich das Rauschen besser in den Griff zu bekommen…Oder soll um am besten den EI Mode auch b benutzen um die „Fehler bei der Überbelichtung von Slog 3 Material“ zu vermeiden????ß Vielen Dank für jeden Tip! Danke
Servus! Ja, es ist nur ein Hilfsmittel wie du beschrieben hast und der aufgenommene Clip ändert sich rein gar nicht dadurch. Ich verwende es nur deswegen weil ich über HDMI das mLUT signal (also nicht das slog3 signal sondern eben das inklusive der Cine-EI Abdunklung) auch auf einen Monitor der Kamera durchschleuse. Und dort möchte ich eben sehen wie es dann in der Postproduktion aussehen wird ohne am Set ständig auf das überbelichtete Bild starren zu müssen 😉
@@RonaldKasperVielen Dank. noch eine Anschlussfrage: in der Nachbearbeitung sollen/müssen ausschließlich die Highlights „gesenkt“ werden um die Überlichtung / Rauschen zu reduzieren? Gibt es hier evtl. Eine „Faustregelung“??? Herzlichen Dank!
@@pictureworld-DG Nein, hier sollte das gesamte Signal abgedunkelt werden, nicht nur die Highlights. In Davinci Resolve gibt es dafür das Offset-Rad in den HDR-Einstellungen, das wirklich einer Reduktion des ISO-Werts gleichkommt. Ich weiß nicht ob es in Premiere etwas ähnliches gibt.
I have watched many videos on this but still don't "Get" it. I shoot with an external monitor and check false colors when I am shooting and have a LUT applied which basically does the same thing and shows me what my "end" result will be more or less. What's the difference? Is this just when you are using the cameras monitor and with out a gamma display applied? Otherwise it does not make that much sense to me or it is basically the same thing. I always shoot in my dual base ISO's manually .
Since you mentioned LUTS, I'll describe it in other words. Imagine you are on location and want to intentionally shoot a scene a bit brigher, because you want to avoid noise in the shadows. You know that you will bring down the footage in postproduction. What options do you have? You can look at the "too bright" image on your monitor but you don't really know what it will look like after you've brought it down. OR you use a LUT on your external monitor, that is designed to show the footage one stop darker. And that's exactly what you can do with Cine EI as well. It just shows your image 1, 2, 3 stops darker than you actually film it. You could do the same with a lut.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks, I do all that all manually for years and using false colors get's me where I need to. I understand the "theory" of Cine EI but I would rather set my ISO manually , over expose my scene by 1.7 or so and see what is clipping or not. I am only concerned about Skin exposure 99% of the time actually and would rather trust false colors for that. Thanks for your response by the way.
Well done, sir.
Thank you James!
Hi, thanx for that. Can it be that this only works when you rec extern in Raw? Or how do you set up your Atomos?
No it works with every monitor. I don’t even have a monitor with recording capabilities, I use the Atomos Shinobi. That’s all native FX6 functionalities.
I can't understand the necessity of cine ei? If it's to dark use iso 12800 and adjust with ND. If it's to bright I use iso 800 and adjust with ND. My ND almost never leaves the lens and what I see on my monitor is what I get on the file. Why make it more complicated?
If you manage to stick to ISO 800 and 12.800 you don‘t need to use cine ei. It has no advantage then. The advantage comes when you want to overexpose stuff in camera and want to see how it will look like after you’ve brought it down in post. Otherwise you have to monitor an overexposed image on set.
@@RonaldKasper I think everybody uses ND filters now, so why would you use anything but native ISO? And I don't get why you would want to overexpose anything in FX3. If you expose everything correct (using waveform, zebra or false color) and use a proper conversion LUT with a good shadow compression, you get super clean files.
The files coming out of digital cameras today is so clean that we have to add glimmer glass, grain, halition and vignettes to make it look nice 😊
Thank you SO much for this! I do have a question, maybe I am just having a noob moment, but when I connect my Ninja V+ to the FX6 via SDI I get a direct feed with the menu and settings overlay from the Sony VF and when Rec using Ninja, it bakes the overlay in. I can't, for the life of me figure out what I messed up.
Hi! In the monitoring menu you can turn off sdi/hdmi output data display. I can’t habe a look right now to give you the exact name, I’m currently not at home. Then you get a clean signal with only the footage.
I searched online. It should be found under „Full Menu > User > Output Display“ this has has on/off options for outputting the FX6 UI over HDMI or SDI.
What about filming in full sun? What iso should I use?
The lower base iso: 800. And add the internal ND of course
I shoot news documentary and we are often at the mercy of the natural light in a scene (imagine a dim migrant shelter). If a window can't be opened, I'm used to creating more light by adjusting the camera settings, so if I'm already wide open with the aperture and I don't touch the shutter speed to preserve it's 180 angle, all I have is ISO. Does this mean that CineEI is not a good fit for this type of outside-the-studio shooting? It feels as though having only a high and low ISO setting isn't going to allow me enough control to get correctly exposed images in "wild" environments. Does this mean I should stick to Cinetone for this filed shooting? Or is there another way to film more flexibly and still see some benefits from the log format? Or perhaps I'm still misunderstanding how CineEI is to be used. Thank you!
Hi Todd! I do a lot of run and gun shooting as well and I found out that 12.800 iso is suitable for most of the conditions. In combination with the built in nd, I was able to film nighttime scenes as well as in bright sunlight. If you film in custom mode, and you raise the iso above 12.800 it is the same as if you film in 12.800 EI mode and raise the exposure in post. The camera just adds more gain to the signal, like you would do it in premiere or davinci. So there’s no benefit from using a higher iso in custom mode (or cine ei).
@@RonaldKasper Thanks Ronald, just sort of feels like a paradigm shift that I still need to wrap my head around. Maybe some more real world shooting will help. I just feel strange in that range that's between 800-12,800. My old way of thinking would say it's a bad idea to bump to 12,800 ISO when all I needed in custom mode was to put my ISO at maybe 1600 or 3200 to get a good exposure. The notion of bumping to 12,800 (!) ISO then using ND to dial it back just seems absurd (and like it would introduce way too much unnecessary noise from the high ISO) but I guess that's what you're saying one would do regularly with Cine EI. I suppose when shooting anything on real film you are locked into an ISO/ASA for the roll and don't have the ability to jump exposure around using digital ISO. Instead you have to control the light by adding or cutting with NDs or bringing in actual lights. Guess this is similar. Thanks again for explaining so well!
@@toddwiseman1421 Your comparison to film rolls nailed it. And yes, I really bump it up to 12800 and use the internal ND all the time in darker environments. I‘m working on a short „how to get clean shadows with the FX6“ RUclips Video, that‘s all about the different behaviour of the camera in 800 and 12800 ISO. Maybe you want to watch it when it comes out. Thanks and bye!
@@RonaldKasper That short would be great! Im in the same struggle as Todd tbh but with a tv-series.
@@rasmuseriksson6805 I've already done the video about clean shadows, watch this or maybe even subscribe to my channel ;-) ruclips.net/video/7O21O9KSbMY/видео.html
This all makes sense, but I do have a question: You say that changing the EI value does not change the recorded footage whatsoever. I see that when you import the footage into Premiere, this is correct. But, in Resolve, The footage comes in with the EI value also. As a test, I filmed the same shot 3 times, raising the EI level each time. Each shot is brighter on my timeline in Resolve. Is there a setting that is making this happen?
I use Resolve as well and the EI value definitely does not change the brightness of the recorded slog3 signal. I don’t know your exact recording settings but I couldn’t reproduce your issue.
@@RonaldKasper Question: Do you have Sony Cataylst Browse installed on your computer?
I uninstalled Catalyst Browse and the issue is gone. It must have been importing the metadata into Resolve. Issue Solved!
@@spacebarvideoproductions no, I don’t
@@spacebarvideoproductions strange, I never had that issue. But thanks a lot for sharing this with me, it’s good to know.
So - if I'm capturing 12800 ISO, and I'm previewing on 3200 ISO, I will retain ALL the info I get on 12800 ISO? And the same picture I will see on 3200 ISO - I will get with 12800 ISO, but lowering the brightness on post? And I will lose NO INFO in shadows?
Exactly. Think of it as an exposure LUT that you put on your ISO 12.800 footage to show it darker.
How would I set the external monitor to display the recorded footage instead of the EI?
On the FX6 go to the monitoring section of the menu and choose to send the slog3 signal over hdmi (not the „mLut“). The you see the slog3 signal on the external monitor and can activate a conversion lut to rec709 there.
@@RonaldKasper I'm still a little confused. Especially working with 2 monitors.
At the moment I have an FX6 with a Cine 7 monitor.
I uploaded the Phantom Slog3 to WDR pre-LUT on my FX6, with MLUT turned on for VF but OFF for SDI/HDMI.
I also uploaded the same LUT to my monitor, with the LUT turned on there.
Whenever I change the lower ISO/GAIN button, it only shows on the VF. Which is what I wanted.
However, what I don't understand is that when I turn on the LUT on my FX6 for SDI/HDMI, the footage on my SMALLHD monitor actually looks more like raw slog footage than it looks like footage with an actual LUT.
There must be something I'm doing wrong, no?
@@ThorCaes Hmm, I can't give you an adivce here, I've never loaded LUTs on my FX6 and wanted to send them to an external monitor via SDI/HDMI. So I don't know what could go wrong here. Sorry.
On the FX6. what are the best zebra settings ? You had 77 as your upper limit - is that for white/skin ? What to set the 1st as ?
Hi! Yes the second one was at 77% for a whitecard and I set my first one to 44% for a greycard (18% grey). These are values when you use the s709 LUT and monitor these LUT levels as well (so sdi/hdmi output must be set to „MLUT“)
I've heard Cine EI also gives you a work flow similar to that of working with actual film.
I wouldn’t say that. It’s a normal LOG workflow. Or what exactly did you hear about similarities to a film workflow?
@@RonaldKasper I admittedly could've heard it wrong, buy I got it from this video.
ruclips.net/video/oAM1RRcGuss/видео.html
@@cjkalandek996 what he could have meant is that in film you don’t have the possibility to raise the iso. Have have to stick to the iso of the film roll, which is the same in cine ei. You habe to use a fix iso of 800 or 12.800, nothing in between is possible. But the postprocessing workflow of cine ei is a normal log workflow.
The EI does not show a change on your external monitor? I feel like my camera does not do that. I’m confused now
There are settings you can change, depending on what you want to see. If you want to have the SLOG3 signal on your external monitor, you can open your "quick menu" (pressing the menu button shortly) and on page 5 you set Gamut/Gamme for SDI and HDMI to "SG3C/SLog3". Then your monitor does NOT change when you change your EI settings because the EI value does not affect your recorded SLog3 signal.
If you change the SDI and HDMI Output to "MLUT", the internal LUT of the FX6 and all EI-changes will be shown on the external monitor. hope that helps.
Do you do a class or private session? love to learn from you on Sony fx3
No sorry, at the moment it’s only this RUclips channel.
@@RonaldKasper happy to pay for your time for an hour
@@isaraketmanee9265 Sorry mate, I don‘t offer this. My time schedule is already quite busy.
So let me get this right. The ONLY thing Ei mode does is show you how the video would look after brightening or darkening the image in post?
I thought Ei mode was meant to let you set base ISO then CHOOSE whether you want to prioritise more highlight retention, or more dark retention? Is this wrong?
Your first assumption is correct. However if you change the ei value and expose differently you automatically give your highlights or your shadows more breathing room in the slog signal. I got this covered with an example shooting in the video as well!
@@RonaldKasper Right, so it does both? It gives you more breathing room in the highlights and shadows, AND shows you how it will look after post processing?
@@braybraymitchfaceyes
So I noticed you are seeing what you get on the built in monitor using a monitoring LUT. My question is I noticed the built in monitor doesn’t change when viewing in S-Log 3 (no lut) and changing EI value. Is that normal? I didn’t see a way to enable live view like on mirrorless cameras and I can’t find anything about this.
That's true. When you view SLOG3, the monitor CAN NOT change because the SLOG3 signal itself doesn't change at all when you change the EI value. That's the reason.
@@RonaldKasper yes! Thank you. You are the first person to actually answer that for me. Is that true for white balance too because I don’t see the change?
no, vwhite balance changes should be shown in both settings
@@RonaldKasper weird then. Is there a live view I need to turn on that is like on mirrorless cameras?
@@jacobstone4real none that I know of. Sorry, I would have to have a look at all of your settings
I’m not sure why but in Cine EI on the fx3 when I change the EI it changes the exposure on both the camera monitor and my Ninja V. Any thoughts about this?
Yes you can change this in the „Shooting“ settings. At least there it’s on the Fx6. In the menu for „Sdi/Hdmi“ you can choose if you want to show (and monitor) the internal 709 LUT (which I did in my example) or the slog3 signal (which never changes when you change the EI value).
So if you want to NOT show your EI changes on your external monitor, switch the LUT for SDI/HDMI off
I don't know the fx6, but it looks to have a variable ND. how would this work for say FX3 or fx30 ?
Yes, the FX6 has an electronic variable ND. with the FX30 and FX3 you could simply screw on a variable ND filter on the lens, like a PolarPro, Tiffen or K&F concept.
So you would try not to use a EI level lower than what you have set the base ISO to? I am still learning the cine ei so forgive me, but what purpose would cine ei if you don’t lower it lower than base iso? Like what purpose would it serve to film at base 800 and then have the EI set higher?
That‘s the main mistake I made in this video. This one sentence. I showed every example correctly but my sentence to sum it up was wrong. I already wrote the correction in the video description and pinned a first comment with the correction. Correct is: Don’t use an EI value HIGHER than your base ISO.
Thank you so much for the reply, I was hoping that was your answer because I have been struggling with the whole Cine EI set up. This helps tremendously. Thanks again.
@@RonaldKasper Glad I found this comment. I watched and it all made sense then when it got to that sentence, I was more confused than when it started lol
@BrandonBLysticLee I put the correction im the pinned comment and in the videodescription. i hoped everybody could find it there. Sorry for the confusion caused by this sentence 😉
Hallo Ronald! Stupid question. If i change EI , both Screens change . In your case its just the cameras Display not the Fieldmonitor? Whats my mistake? Greets from
Austria :-)
Servus! I write in English just because others might be interested as well:
You can change in the monitoring sections which signal you want to send over hdmi (or sdi) to the monitor. In my case I sent the Slog signal (without the lut) but you for sure set it that you send the signal with the baked in LUT.
Schöne Grüße nach Österreich aus Österreich 😉
@@RonaldKasper uff :-) my Monitor is a cheap Feelworld F5proX where I can import LUTs. But now I know what to check out in the specs of this Monitor. But I think the Monitor is just an alternativ to the small FX 30 Display - and nothing more :-) besten Dank! :-)
@@richg.4980 you need to check this in the camera (it‘s called „monitoring“ settings on the FX6) not on the monitor itself.
tried and tried, nothing changes on the screens...both show the same :-) @@RonaldKasper
Hey quick question, how do you get the image on the monitor to not change with the cine ei? I have an fx30 and everytime I change the ei value it changed on both the camera monitor and external monitor. Is it a setting of that specific monitor?
Hi! On the FX6 you can set which signal you want to send to the external monitor. That's in the SDI/HDMI settings. I chose that the SLOG3 signal should be sent to the external monitor (I don't use the internal s709 LUT that I use for the internal monitor of the FX6). So on the monitor I simply add a phantom LUT to convert the SLOG3 to REC709. But since the SLOG3 signal doesn't change when you change the EI value, the external monitor doesn't change as well.
I'm changing the EI level, but the brightness of the image on my monititor does not change. Is there a setting I have turned off?
Yes. You have to set Sdi/hdmi output to mLUT in the FX6
There is no ISO setting if you are shooting in Cine EI, ISO is only available if your shooting S-Cinetone? So I cant see how you can have an EI value greater than your ISO when ISO is not available to set.
Of course the camera uses an ISO value for recording in cone EI. You can’t record „without“ ISO. But you have to stick to either 800 or 12.800 which are the base ISO values in which the sensor operates the best.
In Cine EI it's gain (DB) in S- Cinetone it's ISO. But my point is you said "Never use an EI value that's HIGHER than your ISO" But there isn't two independent ISO values that you can set simultaneously one higher or lower from each other? Unless you mean not to use an EI value that is higher than the base Iso of 800 or 12,800? @@RonaldKasper
@@simoncohen8572 that‘s not true. ISO is nothing else than a calculated value out of your used base ISO in combination with your gain. You can set in camera if you want to show the gain values or the ISO values.
What do you mean with „second independent value“? Of course you can set that, that’s what the EI value is all about. It’s an exposure index that displays your filmed footage at another exposure. It might be easier if you think of it as a lut that you throw on your camera monitor, that does nothing else than darkening the originally filmed footage
I'm just referring to your sentence which basically means dont use an iso higher than your iso, this is whats confusing me? Its a bit like saying make sure your camera on the tripod isnt higher than the other camera on the tripod when you only have one camera on a tripod. Where is this other iso that shouldnt be higher than your iso?@@RonaldKasper
@@simoncohen8572 I think you really misunderstood my explanations in the video. The EI value is NOT the same as the used ISO. Again: The camera records in ISO 800. If you set the EI value to 400, it STILL records in ISO 800 but shows the image on the camera monitor DARKER (as if it would be recorded with ISO 400). That way you can overexpose your footage a bit when it is very dark. You do this so that the dark parts aren't so noisy (you record them brighter than they are and bring down the whole footage by one stop in postproduction). That's a common thing and a quite basic concept, you do with most of the cameras out there. But with other cameras, you have to look at the much too bright image on set, you don't really know if the mood in the darkened endresult will be correct. The advantage with Cine CI is now, that you can already see at the camera monitor, how it will look like after you've brought it down one stop. Is it clear now?
So what's the difference between this and just sending the SLOG 3 footage to an external monitor and loading a rec.709 LUT on the monitor?
You can’t control exposure with a single Rec709 LUT. Unless of course you have LUTs with different exposure corrections (-1 stop, -2 stops). Then you can do it that way as well. But why? Sony has this functionality built in.
@@RonaldKasper Maybe I still don't understand. I thought the whole point of your video was saying you're not controlling exposure with Cine EI; You're just previewing what your video will look like after you bring down the exposure in post. Wouldn't a rec 709 lut do that? It might not be able to show you various stops of exposure, but it'll give you a ballpark idea.
So is Cine EI just a more tuned in, precise version of that or am I missing something?
@@bryanwendland235 maybe we’re talking about the same thing already, but I try it in different words. Yes you’re right, cine EI lets you view the image like it will look like after you brought it down in post. So you can record it one or two stops brighter to get less noise but you already see how your result will look like. How would you do that with a rec709 LUT that shows you the same exposure as the one you are recording right now?
@@RonaldKasper a rec.709 lut would not show you the same exposure as what you're looking at in slog 3. A proper slog3 to rec.709 lut will show your slog footage (relatively) "properly" exposed. *EDIT* Sony's own video about their own rec.709 LUT say this, too, so it's not just me. *EDIT*
To me it seems like the benefit of Cine EI is just the control you have over how many stops of underexposure you're previewing vs a LUT.
@@bryanwendland235 yes of course a conversion LUT shows the correct exposure, but just the same exposure as what you record.
Cine EI is about recording a DIFFERENT exposure than what you see on screen.
BUT in low light, is it better to shoot at 12,800 and boost in post OR to shoot at 25k iso?
According to Alister Chapman it should be the same. Both methods just raise the gain of the signal.
Do you recomend lowering the values of the iso in 800 BASE on really dark scenes? like with a lot of shadows or darker areas, to get stops on shadows?
You can not lower the ISO when you set a base ISO of 800. it’s just 800. what you can do is overexposing by 1 stop and bringing down the footage in post by one stop to get cleaner shadows.
@@RonaldKasper but in the options I can lowering the EI to 200, by doing this, am I not getting more stops of range in shadows?
@@zarias2009 you are not lowering the ISO technically, you are lowering the EI value, so only the brightness of the monitor. Your monitor shows the image as if you would record with ISO 200, in reality the slog3 signal is recorded with ISO 800 and looks much brighter than what you see on your camera screen. In post, you have to bring down the footage so that it looks as dark as on your camera screen and the positive effect of thisball is that you get cleaner shadows.
And yes, that’s totally a good way to record dark scenes that have nonreal highlights in them. If there were a lot of highlights as well, they would start clipping earlier with a lower EI value, as explained in the video.
@@RonaldKasper Many thanks! 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Great video 🙏
Thanks a lot!
so how is this any different than live preview effect on a7siii If you only use 800 and 12800 same base as a7siii for slog3?.
It’s the same until you are happy with the exposure on either 800 or 12.800.
But when you need to overexpose to bring the levels down in postproduction, you see a much too bright image on the screen of the a7siii. With cine ei you see exactly how your endresult will look like after you’ve brought it down by (let’s say) 2 stops. Just choose an ei value 2 stops under your current exposure (let’s say 200 instead of 800).
By the way, the A7siii has a first base iso of 640, not 800.
Totally lost. Was hoping this would help me understand the mode on my FX6. The base is set to 800, but how do I set the high to 12800? Also, when I togged between the L/M/H the screen doesn't increase in brightness. what am I doing wrong?
Hi! Since these are very basic questions, I would highly recommend that you read this excellent description from Alister Chapman before you use the camera: www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/
@@RonaldKasper very basic? Then can you not help? Can I not toggle from 800 to 12800 using the ISO switch on the side of my FX6? Additionally, when jumping from the different EI’s there’s no increase of screen brightness.
Went through Chapmans notes. Still not getting anywhere. Can no one help?
@@propellavideo You can change the Base ISO in your menu. The little metal switch on the side is for changing the EI value in the currently selected base ISO. The iso doesn't change when you change the EI.
And the reason that your screen doesn't change when you change the EI value is, that you probably haven't selected "MLUT" in HDMI/SDI output in your menu. You need this, otherwise the screen brightness doesn't change depending on your selected EI value.
Does this help?
@@RonaldKasper we’re getting somewhere! Thank you! So even for the FX6 included monitor, you have to select MLUT etc? I thought would only be for external additional monitors? Or is it also for the included monitor?
I feel this is now helping 👍🏻
@@propellavideo The waveform you see on your FX6-monitor gives you the signal from what you transfer via HDMI/SDI. So you have to set the LUT there and the internal FX6-monitor shows you the waveform of your signal AFTER THE LUT was applied. If you remove the lut from the hdmi/sdi output setting, your waveform shows you the values of the recorded SLOG3 signal. And yes, the EI-value is related to this as well. It only works when a lut is set for hdmi/sdi.
I usually shoot on the GH5 from Panasonic, and I now got the Sony FS7, but the shooting process is so different.
I think it is really hard to understand the EI. I really don’t see why we have the EI if it does not change the recorded image? If EI lowered or increased it is because my monitor is too dark and thereby also my recording. Can you help me understand easier? 😊🙏
It’s explained in the video. A lot of times we have to overexpose slog3 on set right? Because we record something dark and want to get clean shadows. In postproduction we lower the exposure of the footage that was shot brighter to get the darker image we want, but with the cleaner shadows. So far so good. But if we record it brighter on set, the image in the camera monitor is brighter as well and you do not really see how it will look after the exposure was brought down. And that’s why we need cine ei, it pretty much lets us „preview“ how the image will look after we’ve lowered it. Clear now?
@@RonaldKasper
Okay yes that is better, thanks.
So if the FS7 native iso is 2000. Would you use EI of 800 as a standard to ensure an overexposed image of 1.something?
@@Nqrgaard I‘ve never worked with the FS7 but with the FX6 I only need to overexpose with the second base ISO of 12.800. with the first base iso of 800 the shadows are very clean straight out of camera without overexposing.
FS7 has Cine EI?
Starkes Video Ronald 👏 SUB from a german FX6 filmmaker 🎥 I takes a long time to understand my FX6 😂 but now we are married 😅 beste filmerische Grüße
Ah super, ein Nachbar meldet sich! 👍
Yes it takes some time to switch from a mirrorless camera to the FX6 Nd understand it totally, but it is a beast of a camera!
I've been a director for 30 years. I work in Slog now. I have no idea what he's talking about.
The video helped the majority of people who watched it, to understand cine EI. Can I help you out with further information?
Can you show us your RUclips setup?
Hi! What do you mean? How I set up my room with the lights? That's all pretty standard: An aputure Amaron 200x keylight, a P60c fill-light, a Godox TL60 tubelight on the shelf and two Aputure MCs on the shelf. I think a whole video about this might be too boring ;-)
@@RonaldKasper like a behind the scenes video on how you make RUclips content
The problem is that if you use a display LUT, the histogram changes with your EI!
That’s true but I‘d say thats a feature, not a problem. Because of this you can expose for nor normal levels with any ei value
I just tested this on my FX6 and the histogram and waveform on the camera both remain locked when I adjust the EI. I’m using a LUT on the viewfinder but not the SDI or Internal Rec.
@@SideTripProductionsyeah but Sony crippled the function on the FX30 (poverty camera for plebs)
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
You’re very welcome! Thanks for commenting!
put simply, each ISO value in CineEI is an exposure LUT !
Basically yes. But that doesn’t sound as cool as „Cine EI“ so they created this new name for it 😂
Thank you
You’re welcome, I hope the video could help a bit
Its totally bizarre, because you lower the EI value to show required look but still need to add light to raise the white point which then raises exposure so you then you adjust EI again and then add more light to raise white point.... it makes no sense.
Which section of the video are you talking about?
@@RonaldKasper from 3:31 - from every reduction of the EI value you raise the EI Value....
@@IanSnape the explanation is totally fine. It explains why you use dynamic range in the highlights when you lower the EI value AND CORRECTLY EXPOSE for middle grey at a certain brightness level. Because the level of middle grey is risen towards the brightest area the camera can capture with each lowering of the ei value.
My waveform won't change when I change the EI on my camera monitor. Why is this? What setting do I need to change? Also, for everyone watching: You need to have a LUT imported into your camera to see a change on your monitor when changing the exposure index. If you are monitoring in a raw SLOG image, the EI won't change a thing visually.
Hi! That is correct and very clear. Remember, the recorded SLOG3 signal doesn't change at all by changing the Cine EI value, so if you are viewing SLOG 3 on your monitor, of course nothing changes when you change the Cine EI value. You have to activate the LUT on the screen (either the standard s709 LUT that's preinstalled on the camera or any third-party LUT) to see changes when you switch the Cine EI value. But some people always want to see the waveform of the recordecd SLOG3 signal, so it's definitely not wrong to have no LUT on the monitor. It just depends on what you want to see there.
@@RonaldKasper My waveform doesn't change too and the The MLUT is turned on. This doesn't make sense
@@dny00001 Do you have "MLUT" on on the SDI/HDMI output? This is necessary setting so that the waveform changes. If you only have it on the viewfinder, the waveform does NOT change.
I still don’t get it. You overexpose the image but display a darker image? What’s the point? Visualisation? Don’t you clip the highlights by overexposing the scene by two stops?
Exactly, I display a darker image. The point us that you need to overexpose in darker environments when you want clean shadows. Like shown in the video.
so am I the only one who still confused?😅or its because the wine i drink while i'm watching this?
Drink a second glass and this might get clearer 👍😉
I still dont understand it. i need like a dummy version for me
And here it is. Cine EI only lets you film in your base ISO value, let's say this is 800. Lowering the EI from 800 to 400 is like applying monitoring-LUTs on your camera's monitor. They show the image one stop darker (like it was filmed with 400 ISO) but the camera still records in 800. That way you can overexpose what you are filming a bit (by recording it with the bright value of 800) but already see what it will look like after you've brought it down in your editing software by one stop (so that it looks like filmed with 400). That "bring down in post" is very helpful when you film in dark environments. Filming it brighter and reducing the brightness in post gets you cleaner shadows.
This is a good explanation. But in reality it is just Sony trying to work around their terrible sensors. Sony shadows deteriorate so quickly.
Dual base iso is a very common concept among all manufacturers
@@RonaldKasper EI workflow is just a fancy way of covering up for the fact that you have to over expose sony sensors by 2 stops to get clean shadows.
@@personal4528 true but you see how the endresult will look like and you don’t have to look at an overexposed monitor on set.
No-one explains how Cine EI works outdoors in full sunlight.
Yes because you primarily need it in darker environments. Outdoor the EI value should be the same as the ISO. In very rare cases, you could raise the EI value to something higher than the ISO, what happens is that what you see on screen is brighter than what you record. You basically record an underexposed footage then. I honestly I did never use these settings because there was no need for it.
That’s confusing if you don’t have a monitor . I guess don’t use it ,if you don’t have a monitor to see the true look?
You can set your FX6 monitor to show the „true look“ as well. It’s all in the monitor menu, just choose slog3 or LUT as output