My all-time fave moment on TAE was when she said "If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and your god."
Yeah, every time I watch the end of that exchange after the guy hangs up, and she says "I did grow up in a different Christianity than that guy, and I think it was a better one," I laugh.
+RyujinZero The caller didn't hang up. His response to what Tracie said was that the child was just as guilty as the rapist. Matt cut him off, saying "Goodbye, you piece of shit"
@@Kafei I checked out your encounter with Tracie and you made a fool out of yourself. The fact you think that was some kind of victory for you indicates that you may be delusional.
It amazes me that when I tell people I no longer have any contact with my abusive father how many want to interject how much I will regret it and that I MUST work to restore the relationship. Why in the world would I want to restore a relationship with an abusive alcoholic that has no remorse for their past actions? Cherishing relationships with moms and dads can be wonderful. Forcing yourself to stay connected with a toxic relationship just because there were the sperm donor or birthing unit makes no sense to me at all.
Carl P Exactly! My father was extremely abusive and even tried to kill me multiple times. My mother who I loved failed to protect me, but later felt terribly guilty but also always, always tries to defend his position and choses him over independence and over me. I spent 50 years trying to normalize my family. Two years ago at thanksgiving my father interrupted me speaking with my niece and I frowned dismissively at him briefly and went back to my conversation with her. Apparently later he pitched a fit to my mom about it inspiring her to write me a letter chastising me about being so rude to him and saying I owed him an apology. My head exploded. I am just done. She triggers me more than I ever realized. She always tried to train me to subordinate myself to the delicate male ego. She on the other hand did gripe to me how she had subverted her own artistic talents because he would pout if she got compliments on her art as he wanted to be seen as some great starving artist. (and starve we did, btw) So she couldn’t do art and I needed to be hospitalized for malnutrition. He was just insane with his power and abuse. But everyone thinks he is just the greatest guy and soooo sweet and kind. Because these people groom everyone-not just children. And everyone then tells you you are a bad person to not forgive. Sorry-NOTsorry-but somethings are unforgivable. The physical shape and internal working of my physical brain have forever been shaped by this abuse. When home is the most dangerous place a child can be...It is a disaster for that child’s whole life. My nightmares are somewhat under my control after decades of cognitive work...but only repressed really because my brain is still overwhelmed by thousands and thousands of the incidents that made up my life. I feel guilty because mom is too alone and unappreciated by anyone except me. But I just can’t keep doing this to myself by allowing the renewed, refreshed trauma in my head. Forgiving is not an option. Child abuse is FOREVER.
Thank you for speaking up for the abused. I had an abusive, alcoholic father and an enabler mother. I never felt safe at home. I blame both of them for my PTSD. She wouldn't leave him and get a job znd protect herself and me. They were both toxic. I grew up, put myself through school, moved away and had minimal contact. People just don't understand how horrible it was so they expect you to love and associate with these toxic, abusive family members.
I found that people with reasonably happy families who grew up with our abuse, cannot wrap their minds about what we have been through. And if we told them, if we could bring ourselves to say it out loud, it would change their world forever if they listened. Sometimes they imagine something they could deal with rather than seeing the situation as it is. By doing that, they just had to be abuse.
"Tracie is awesome! She's also my favorite on TAE." Same here. She can cut through the bullshit like nobody I've ever seen. "How is something that's timeless, spaceless and immaterial different from something that doesn't exist?"
My go-to at this point when believers ask me what it would take to convert is to say that God needs to reveal himself to me in a way that is convincing, and then the first thing he needs to do is apologize. If God can come down to me and say he's sorry; sorry for being so hard to find, sorry for causing plagues and cancer, sorry for allowing his followers to hurt people, etc. Just humble yourself to me, your creation, which you claim to care about, and that's at the very least the first thing he has to do, and then we can maybe talk about a relationship. It's basically like someone asking "What would it take for you to accept your abusive absentee father back into your life?" - Iunno, maybe if he showed up and tried to build the bridge that he very purposefully never built in the first place?
Tracie's point about loving your parents really resonates with me. I've always thought that the idea of "unconditional love" was stupid - just like faith. Love is always "conditional" - just as beliefs should be based on facts and evidence.
I found Seth pretty annoying there. I hate it when people reflexively start to tell people that they're being extreme when they hate their family or have no contact, etc. For all Seth knew, Tracie's dad might have raped her. If someone tells you they're glad a parent is dead, you shut the $*#* up, assume there's a reason, and move on to the next topic.
Actually, if someone has a marked reaction to a statement, it often provides an opportunity for elaboration. I had no idea about her parents, and the good-natured, frank exchange that followed my reaction really fleshed out an angle of the interview that I hadn't expected or planned. As a result, Tracie's perspective on her father also helped to encourage others in their own circles, as we can see even in this comments section. "For all Seth knew" could give us an excuse to skip or avoid all manner of discussions. I was struck by her candid statement about her father's death, and I had no desire to "shut the $# up." I wanted to know more, and I wanted Tracie to know I wasn't approaching the subject flippantly. Thanks for listening. - Seth
My family was hugely influencial in the irrational way I pursued happiness and enlightenment . I take responsibility for allowing it and for making the decisions I did , but it still stands true that they had a hand in those things . Once I stopped following their lead I was far more successful . In doing so I thought why do I give them access at all ? I had only the weakest of rationale in doing so . From that moment they were treated as someone who had only the weakest place in my life .
Tracie is such a wonderful person. I so much enjoy her perspectives, her eloquence, and elegance. I hope that I have the opportunity one day to let her know that she has enriched my life. Great show Seth, we are fortunate to have you as well.
This lady sounds like a kindred spirit, for those of us who abhor unnecessary drama, but feel a certain duty to contest stupid and dangerous claims. Good for you, Ms. Harris!
Always love listening to Tracie Harris. A smart person but also a very compassionate woman. And I think she underestimates how effective a thinker and communicator she is. The "flip side" of the Dunning-Kruger effect- the more competent a person is the less they rate themselves.
This was so very nice Seth. I really enjoyed getting to know more about Tracie Harris. All your shows are awesome, but this lady... wow!!! My kind of woman. I love and respect her even more. Thank you Tracie for all that you do for the community. I hope to one day be able to educate and enlighten others in such an honest and sincere way. More power to you both!!!
I really like her take on the mom/dad issue. I don't really like my parents but there's still that expectation that I should. Not interacting with them or the rest of my family has lessened the stress on my life.
thats exactly how I feel. My life simply is "better" for me without them participating in it. I have moments of regrets flaring up from time to time based on this sense of expectation especually from people who dont understand the situation and cannot entertain the idea that the relationship between me and my parents is so toxic that its bad for all involved. And frankly, I usually dont tell them the details either.
The things I like the most about God are: his passiveness, his silence, his invisibility, his intangibility, his being imperceptible in every way possible. I think that is what makes him so strong and worthy of worship! In all seriousness, I like her points about meeting god halfway and how he is unwilling to do even that.
tracie's take on parental relationships was a revelation for me. I've always been twisted with guilt because I and my family do not like each other. no more! the viewpoint she articulated exactly described my reality.
Yeah the melting chocolate comment was my favorite. I was watching a podcast one time and my husband walked in and was like, "what are you listening to?" I said, "a podcast, why?" He then says, "this guy has like the perfect radio voice ever!" I just started laughing. I said, "yeah, well he did do radio for year so..." He was gifted that way. Very Sexeh!
Ms. Harris is easily my favorite of the Atheist Experience crew. She's incredibly intelligent and insightful; seeing through to the heart of the matter quickly.
That just touched me and my husband so much and I am so glad that other people are talking about it especially you and your guest and thank you so much for bringing that to the Forefront it means a lot and it brings great relief and comfort for us that struggle with this everyday thank you so much Seth and to your guests for bringing this out and making us feel better about having issues with our family and toxic people in our lives
Totally agree! Let's kiss his ass and thank him when positive things occur and don't forget to blame the devil, which he created, when bad things occur.
Thanks for having Tracie on Seth, I always enjoy hearing her thoughts on religion. She's very bright/smart and makes very good points. I feel she thinks more "outside the box"
Tracie! I can't believe you got her to collab on your channel. Awesome! Tracie is my favourite host on the TheAtheistExperience. One of my favourite persons in general actually. It's about time for a new marathon with TAE. I love you Tracie
Wow, I didn't think I could like Tracie anymore than I already did. Her points about parents really hit home for me. I am No Contact with my mother and it is great to hear someone I respect so much validate my situation. Thank you for everything, Tracie, and thank you for this upload.
Wow.. first time I've ever listened to a full show or yours Sir Seth -- was a fan of all your efforts and presentations outside your own channel for years -- and was instantly drawn to mentions of Tracie Harris, who I have likewise enjoyed for years on as co-pilot with USA's own 'Sir' Matt Dillahunty on Atheist Experience. Must say, I was sincerely impressed by both the interviewer, and the guest. Honestly, was shocked at how brilliant Tracie came across. Her fast, yet in depth responses to discussion points were not something I was used to seeing so expansively while sharing shoulder space with Matt; quite impressive indeed. Truly a great show for all participants, callers included.
I’m shocked how much in common I have with Traci! My wife and I are constantly telling people we’re boring. We stay home a lot. I retired from the military, loved mytime in but yet am not a lover of war. She does a great job and her upbeat attitude is just a joyful thing to see! I must say also Seth, you are totaly awesome! I love your content!
Re: 19 minute mark, or so... When I was younger and attended AA meetings, one of the many things they would repeatedly say was "Fake it 'til you make it." This conversation of people 'talking a good game' made me think of that. In my case, I faked it and became even less of a believer (I did, at the time, consider myself "spiritual.") It wasn't later until I realized that I was simply re-defining "God" until I had re-defined him out of existence.
Timothy Carroll wow. That’s exactly my story as well. I never really believed, despite being raised in a very catholic home. In 97 I got sober. I was so desperate that I was willing to say, do, or believe anything. After about 10 years I couldn’t stand my own hypocrisy. My dad died at that time. He was the most honest, humble man I’ve ever met. On his deathbed, he was shaking, crying, and praying aloud to Jesus, asking him to not send him to hell for the things he did in the war (WWII). It disturbed me so much to see what religion did to this great man. It was at that moment I became an open, militant atheist. Even in the rooms of AA
One of my experiences as an atheist with death is this. Knowing we will die one day permanently forces us to make the best of everything NOW. And believers, they do think they'll have forever. Which is why they never spend time with people. REally spend time with them. They are always looking towards heaven. Never on earth. When a really close friend died, I was strangely at peace because I spent so much time with him during the last years before he died. We have friends who have never seen him physically since we all graduated from school. Who are absolutely devastated at this death. I think it's a loss to be looking towards this heaven thing.
Seth, I don't know if you read comments on old videos, but this is great. And as far as I know Tracie has retired completely from the online Atheist community, but if you could get her back to talk again I think that could be a great talk.
22:02 "meet me halfway"; a sentiment that comes from a spirit of fairness and self-worth. What many Christians call "humility" is really just glorified self-deprecation; while they cower under one hand, in fear, and hold out the other in greed. What Tracie was advocating for, when she took that position, is: well-balanced humility. And it really is essential to being able to identify, pursue, achieve, and maintain any healthy relationship. If there is a guy (ANY "he"; or even and "she") that is not interested in that, or not capable of that, then they remain unworthy of a relationship with any person that CAN have (and does want) a healthy relationship. Being able to have a healthy relationship starts with having a healthy relationship with our self. Christian-god, as described by Christians, does not have a healthy relationship with his self; and would, then, not able to have one with anyone else.
(Shortened, upon edit) (original/longer version, backed up to the cloud) The character doesn't know himself. It can't discern its own failings and so it can't grow, adapt, or be reasoned with. -just not the sort of guy you can take home to meet your parents.
Not James, however, I have always felt that the Christian God as they describe him is a narcissist with serious self-esteem and anger issues. If you were a real God, would you need the first 4 commandments? Would you care that some people are worshiping the idols of other gods, false or not? In a real world sense, that's like a father getting abusively angry that his children also love their mother. We would say something is very, very wrong with a father who acts in that manner and that he needs some kind of treatment/psychological help. In order to be such a narcissistic, angry person, you have some serious internal problems and doubts about yourself. You overcompensate for your internal doubts by forcing everyone else to prop you up constantly. Or else...
Quote of the video "Hitler had relatives" ^_^; Thanks Tracy for being such a straight honest talker. You expressed those tricky ideas so very well. I have always struggled with being the odd egg in the family and have had tremendous guilt about not having strong relationships with them. Sometimes you just need to here that some else had the same experience and it is completely ok that you don't have the Disney sugar sweet family that society makes you must have.
28:42 - "There are some people who, their biggest contribution to make the world a better place is their death." Daaaaaaaaaaaaamn, that's some serious shade thrown! Compassion for Tracie though, that the people she said that about were her own parents, given the abusive relationships that implies.
Seth, thanks SO much for having Tracie on your show! What she said about family and marriage/alternative lifestyles so resonated with me. I like how she just came out and addressed that parents don't necessarily need to be put on a pedestal...especially when they did not earn the respect. She slaughtered that "Sacred Cow".
I’m similar to Tracie. I feel like I am boring. I like things low key. I’m introverted. I’m social, but not all the time. I like hearing and seeing a glimpse into Tracie’s life. She’s pretty open.
Tracie Harris is definitely my favorite host on The Atheist Experience. I definitely enjoy her perspectives on anything honestly, even if i don't quite agree, she has a way of making me see a different side of things i wouldn't necessarily have otherwise thought of. This channel does that for me as well, so, this interview was especially interesting and fun to watch.
I’m among those who first realize what real grief is - grief seemingly over the loss of everything. Finding other interests and occupations that highlight who I was all along reminds me I didn’t lose everything. Perhaps I have gained.
I tell people all the time that just because you share DNA with someone doesn't give them the right to abuse you. It is a choice whether or not to continue relationships with people.
I've always found the aura Tracie projects to be genuine, open, and unassuming. Her view of her parents brought another insight to which I can relate. I spent a fair portion of my childhood wondering whether my unstable mother would murder me in my sleep -- a tad confusing for a developing mind and personality. At some point around 8y/o, I made note that some people are generally happy while others are generally not, irrespective of their circumstance. I decided I would go with happy. And so, apparently, has Tracie who is a marvelously appealing individual.
Tracie, as a former Evangelical, poly, married (going on 18 years) man, who struggles like hell to honor my wife's rigidly monogamous view of our relationship, thanks for what you said here on the topic.
I love her analogy about assuming soldiers love war. I frequently find myself engaged in debate while also wishing the debate weren't necessary. For that matter, based on nineteen years (so far) as a Police/Fire/EMS Dispatcher, most police officers would _much_ prefer to live in a world where police were no longer necessary. I suspect the same is true of many (if not most) soldiers. As for grief-stricken parents of a dead child, finding comfort in their belief that the child is now with God, I've actually seen a few. Growing in in Utah, the LDS faith is so pervasive that people's faith is constantly reinforced to that high a degree. Either that, or even in their moments of deepest despair, they feel the need to "perform" for fear of (A) ruining somebody else's faith by sharing their own doubt or (B) losing their support system because, in that environment, anything that even resembles apostasy is treated with social...if not organizational...shunning. Coming from this background, when Tracie said, "If they weren't my parents, they would not be people I would want to be close to in my life," I totally felt that one...especially considering my mom's whole side of the family (not including my mom herself) AND my sister's family are all LDS.
Great conversation :-) I agree it is so important to be able to be honest (at least to yourself) about your family. Letting go of who you wish they would be for you is so important. I have had to cut off a family member and it has given me the space to grow.
Responding to the part where Tracie and Seth talk about boundaries. Tracie gives the example of the person who just walks into their friend's home unannounced and they'd tried many passive-aggressive, subtle techniques to get them to stop, to no avail. Tracie states she doesn't understand why people can't be direct and why it's so hard. While I agree because I'm the type of person who is blunt to a fault and I sometimes lack tact in being so direct, some people have a terrible fear of confrontation. They don't know how someone will respond to their directness and the anxiety that produces prevents them from being direct. I'd cut the friends some slack. Most people would pick up on the subtle hints and refrain from such obtrusive behavior such as walking in unannounced, but the sort of person who would do that in the first place obviously lacks the ability to think outside of themselves. They lack the ability to perceive how their rudeness for just showing up and letting themselves in might cause discomfort. Total disregard for the boundaries of others. It's not likely that they will receive such directness well. If I were offering advice to them by telling them to be direct, I'd also offer the caveat that they have to be prepared to lose this person as a friend. Not everyone has the ability for self awareness and maturity and one needs to be cognizant of that when choosing to be direct. I personally prefer directness. I don't have the patience nor the energy to agonize over people who will not respect my boundaries, but I also understand that not everyone feels comfortable being as direct as I might be.
Tracy is rapidly becoming my favorite atheist activist. With a list of giants before her. She keeps it so calm and matter of fact with all her statements.
I tried being a monk for fourteen months at three different places and came to the conclusion that the monks were basically sleep walking through life grooving on the institutional living which in a monastery is even more all pervasive than merely being a lifer in the navy, for instance, since of course they typically can’t have the equivalent of living off base in their own apartment, don’t retire, don’t get paid, and don’t get pensions. So they just stay there until they expire. But there was a sort of weird fluidity to their beliefs and mental states such that one got the strong impression that they were actually no more religious than most anyone else, based upon the way they typically spoke about things. So this is how I formed the distinct impression that this was essentially a lifestyle choice motivated by a desire to drop out of the rat race, which of course is pretty underwhelming. This is why I would bet that persons dropping out of the monastery frequently also quit attending church as well. And most new people do drop out. Also people who have been there for decades drop out as well, especially if their parents die and they come into money. Then also you get people who switch denominations after dropping out. After quitting a Catholic monastery I subsequently ran into the guy in the cell next to mine at an Anglican Catholic parish attending mass there even those Anglican Catholics are not Catholics at all but actually schismatic high church Episcopalians. So who knows what he was thinking. I thought that he might have been laying the ground work to put one over on this new denomination looking for a cushier set up to go move into. But I thought that these monasteries were so annoying that I’d most definitely prefer just working for the Salvation Army and living in one of their flophouses rather than put up with all the over-compensating monastic horseshit. Of course in the Salvation Army you can’t drink or smoke like you can in a Catholic monastery. And monks tell the best dirty jokes.
Tracie's reluctance to actually take these debates is one of the reasons she is so good at it. She doesn't want to just speak over everyone all the time to say her bit, unless it is vitally important. Instead, she takes the time to pursue the Socratic method. Posing a question, listening to the answer and asking another question based on that. It goes a long way to leading people to an understanding of what they believe and then, having tried to explain the reasons for it to another person, they begin to realize what they do or don't have explanations for. It's refreshing, honestly.
+TheThinkingAtheist, I want to thank Tracie for her commentary on family. I had very abusive "parents" who cut off contact with me -- Seth, I think that I've mentioned this to you -- and cousins who blame me for the lack of contact. I would constantly second-guess myself as in "Am I wrong and what could I have done differently?", but hearing Tracie's story showed me that I'm not the only one and sometimes that's the way it has to go, and that helped me immensely. So, thank you again, Tracie.
Tracie: For heaven's sake (!) you're such a positive influence on the athiest community! Let that shine and own it! I identify with you so much in the way you live your life, except that I was never indoctrinated. I did grow up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, so I was surrounded by so many Bible thumpers that it does give me some insight into that indoctrination. I also grew up gay in Oklahoma, so I consequently moved to West Hollywood a few years after finishing university. You are so intelligent, well spoken, thoughtful and positive in your approach to your athiest work, so that has a real impact on many of us, I'm sure. You're a beautiful person and it shows through that infectious smile. Keep up the good work!
Tracy mentioned that she did her best... The echoes of Christianity rang through my head declaring, "Your best is never enough!" You are never enough.... NEVER... Only Jesus is what makes you enough, but you, you are never enough on your own. Sounds abusive doesn't it?
Love both of these people. They both manage to be confident without coming off as arrogant. Matt fails on the latter, from time to time but I still think he’s great too.
15:18 reminded me of something my father told me many years ago. He had an aunt , a member of the Congregational Church (a liberal institution, then and now) who, as she lay dying had only one concern. "What if those Adventists were right all along? What if we were supposed to go to church on Saturday? I don't want to go to Hell."
My all-time fave moment on TAE was when she said "If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and your god."
Yea, that was a good one.
That quote is the one that has always stuck in my mind too.
Yeah, every time I watch the end of that exchange after the guy hangs up, and she says "I did grow up in a different Christianity than that guy, and I think it was a better one," I laugh.
+RyujinZero The caller didn't hang up. His response to what Tracie said was that the child was just as guilty as the rapist. Matt cut him off, saying "Goodbye, you piece of shit"
cbak12sg
You're right, I forgot. XD
I found it fascinating to find that she doesn't like debate or controversy;
but is in the trenches of the fight
because she cares.
Tracie Harris... I frickin' love Tracie. She's such a brilliant thinker and an amazing person! Thank you for having her on.
Long time fan of Tracie. Highly underrated as a thinker.
Yeah and what i am most impressed by is how real and down to earth she is and not fake and plastic like many other people out there.
Underrated thinker and cute lady
If I wasn’t married I’d love Tracie to be my wife :) learn so much from her knowledge and views
Agreed
@@Kafei I checked out your encounter with Tracie and you made a fool out of yourself. The fact you think that was some kind of victory for you indicates that you may be delusional.
It amazes me that when I tell people I no longer have any contact with my abusive father how many want to interject how much I will regret it and that I MUST work to restore the relationship.
Why in the world would I want to restore a relationship with an abusive alcoholic that has no remorse for their past actions?
Cherishing relationships with moms and dads can be wonderful. Forcing yourself to stay connected with a toxic relationship just because there were the sperm donor or birthing unit makes no sense to me at all.
I feel that way as well and I have been living very great while on the journey
Carl P Exactly! My father was extremely abusive and even tried to kill me multiple times. My mother who I loved failed to protect me, but later felt terribly guilty but also always, always tries to defend his position and choses him over independence and over me. I spent 50 years trying to normalize my family. Two years ago at thanksgiving my father interrupted me speaking with my niece and I frowned dismissively at him briefly and went back to my conversation with her. Apparently later he pitched a fit to my mom about it inspiring her to write me a letter chastising me about being so rude to him and saying I owed him an apology. My head exploded. I am just done. She triggers me more than I ever realized. She always tried to train me to subordinate myself to the delicate male ego. She on the other hand did gripe to me how she had subverted her own artistic talents because he would pout if she got compliments on her art as he wanted to be seen as some great starving artist. (and starve we did, btw) So she couldn’t do art and I needed to be hospitalized for malnutrition. He was just insane with his power and abuse. But everyone thinks he is just the greatest guy and soooo sweet and kind. Because these people groom everyone-not just children. And everyone then tells you you are a bad person to not forgive. Sorry-NOTsorry-but somethings are unforgivable. The physical shape and internal working of my physical brain have forever been shaped by this abuse. When home is the most dangerous place a child can be...It is a disaster for that child’s whole life. My nightmares are somewhat under my control after decades of cognitive work...but only repressed really because my brain is still overwhelmed by thousands and thousands of the incidents that made up my life. I feel guilty because mom is too alone and unappreciated by anyone except me. But I just can’t keep doing this to myself by allowing the renewed, refreshed trauma in my head. Forgiving is not an option. Child abuse is FOREVER.
It's like when they say respect must be earned.
Thank you for speaking up for the abused. I had an abusive, alcoholic father and an enabler mother. I never felt safe at home. I blame both of them for my PTSD. She wouldn't leave him and get a job znd protect herself and me. They were both toxic. I grew up, put myself through school, moved away and had minimal contact. People just don't understand how horrible it was so they expect you to love and associate with these toxic, abusive family members.
I found that people with reasonably happy families who grew up with our abuse, cannot wrap their minds about what we have been through. And if we told them, if we could bring ourselves to say it out loud, it would change their world forever if they listened. Sometimes they imagine something they could deal with rather than seeing the situation as it is. By doing that, they just had to be abuse.
Good luck to Tracie in her future endeavours. She will be missed.
Thanks for giving Tracie more exposure. She's a good speaker and should do more debates.
Tracie is *awesome!* She's also my favorite on TAE.
I used to like Jeff Dee
The episodes where Jeff would flip out at callers threatening him with hell were always the best.
I miss Jeff Dee! He is so smart!
"Tracie is awesome! She's also my favorite on TAE."
Same here.
She can cut through the bullshit like nobody I've ever seen.
"How is something that's timeless, spaceless and immaterial different from something that doesn't exist?"
*****
Exactly!
Tracie - Intelligent and modest. Hooray for nice people.
And kind of a cougar
@@JoNDOE66613
*[insert big cat snarls here]*
So rare to see all those qualities in 1 person.
Tracie, you are a national treasure. Thank you. So are you Seth.
My go-to at this point when believers ask me what it would take to convert is to say that God needs to reveal himself to me in a way that is convincing, and then the first thing he needs to do is apologize. If God can come down to me and say he's sorry; sorry for being so hard to find, sorry for causing plagues and cancer, sorry for allowing his followers to hurt people, etc. Just humble yourself to me, your creation, which you claim to care about, and that's at the very least the first thing he has to do, and then we can maybe talk about a relationship.
It's basically like someone asking "What would it take for you to accept your abusive absentee father back into your life?" - Iunno, maybe if he showed up and tried to build the bridge that he very purposefully never built in the first place?
Tracie's point about loving your parents really resonates with me. I've always thought that the idea of "unconditional love" was stupid - just like faith. Love is always "conditional" - just as beliefs should be based on facts and evidence.
definitely!
I found Seth pretty annoying there. I hate it when people reflexively start to tell people that they're being extreme when they hate their family or have no contact, etc. For all Seth knew, Tracie's dad might have raped her. If someone tells you they're glad a parent is dead, you shut the $*#* up, assume there's a reason, and move on to the next topic.
Actually, if someone has a marked reaction to a statement, it often provides an opportunity for elaboration. I had no idea about her parents, and the good-natured, frank exchange that followed my reaction really fleshed out an angle of the interview that I hadn't expected or planned.
As a result, Tracie's perspective on her father also helped to encourage others in their own circles, as we can see even in this comments section.
"For all Seth knew" could give us an excuse to skip or avoid all manner of discussions. I was struck by her candid statement about her father's death, and I had no desire to "shut the $# up." I wanted to know more, and I wanted Tracie to know I wasn't approaching the subject flippantly.
Thanks for listening. - Seth
+aaronpolitical Whoah!! Why so hateful ? ;)
My family was hugely influencial in the irrational way I pursued happiness and enlightenment . I take responsibility for allowing it and for making the decisions I did , but it still stands true that they had a hand in those things . Once I stopped following their lead I was far more successful . In doing so I thought why do I give them access at all ? I had only the weakest of rationale in doing so . From that moment they were treated as someone who had only the weakest place in my life .
Tracie is such a wonderful person. I so much enjoy her perspectives, her eloquence, and elegance. I hope that I have the opportunity one day to let her know that she has enriched my life. Great show Seth, we are fortunate to have you as well.
Great descriptors…. Eloquence & elegance
Authenticity (doesn’t start with an “E”)
Tracie is such a fantastic communicator.
TAE episodes with her always are a special treat.
wow Tracy Harris has such a beautiful heart! she's had it rough and she doesn't complain keeps such a positive attitude, good for her.
Tracie is my role model - she's such an inspiration.
You both are my role models and are true inspirations also! :)
This lady sounds like a kindred spirit, for those of us who abhor unnecessary drama, but feel a certain duty to contest stupid and dangerous claims. Good for you, Ms. Harris!
Always love listening to Tracie Harris. A smart person but also a very compassionate woman.
And I think she underestimates how effective a thinker and communicator she is.
The "flip side" of the Dunning-Kruger effect- the more competent a person is the less they rate themselves.
Atheism is false because Tracie Harris is obviously a goddess!
She has a FB account and she personally replies to people! :)
I'll worship her
Oh sht. I've been looking for the creep section.... not.
That hilarious 😂 luv it!
oddly in profile she looks like a witch. she does have a shapely brain though.
This was so very nice Seth. I really enjoyed getting to know more about Tracie Harris. All your shows are awesome, but this lady... wow!!! My kind of woman. I love and respect her even more. Thank you Tracie for all that you do for the community. I hope to one day be able to educate and enlighten others in such an honest and sincere way. More power to you both!!!
I really like her take on the mom/dad issue. I don't really like my parents but there's still that expectation that I should. Not interacting with them or the rest of my family has lessened the stress on my life.
thats exactly how I feel. My life simply is "better" for me without them participating in it. I have moments of regrets flaring up from time to time based on this sense of expectation especually from people who dont understand the situation and cannot entertain the idea that the relationship between me and my parents is so toxic that its bad for all involved. And frankly, I usually dont tell them the details either.
The things I like the most about God are: his passiveness, his silence, his invisibility, his intangibility, his being imperceptible in every way possible. I think that is what makes him so strong and worthy of worship!
In all seriousness, I like her points about meeting god halfway and how he is unwilling to do even that.
tracie's take on parental relationships was a revelation for me. I've always been twisted with guilt because I and my family do not like each other. no more! the viewpoint she articulated exactly described my reality.
Loved this episode. Tracie Harris is addicting! I really wish she would host a youtube channel. I would sub in a micro-second.
Its amazing how Tracie get prettier with time
Yeah I have to say I have a small celebrity crush on her. Smart, beautiful, humble. What's not to like?
666Maeglin She reminds me of my oldest friend's sister - not necessarily a classic beauty, but nonetheless attractive as all hell.
gorgeous lady. I love watching and listening to her on the videos
Yep. She could re-arrange my tools in the garage, and clean out my gun safe, WITHOUT me complaining-at all.
I agree. I have the hots for her and she’s probably old enough to be my mom
Tracie's clarity of thought is something to which we all should aspire.
Bravo.
Seth does have a voice for radio, let it be said...it's like caramel coated velvet
Yeah the melting chocolate comment was my favorite. I was watching a podcast one time and my husband walked in and was like, "what are you listening to?" I said, "a podcast, why?" He then says, "this guy has like the perfect radio voice ever!" I just started laughing. I said, "yeah, well he did do radio for year so..." He was gifted that way. Very Sexeh!
Yes, it reminds me of Carl Sagan's voice, so smooth.
God dammit! Who drizzled this caramel all over my velvet?
@@anonymousjohnson6405 The only person who has a better voice is Cecil Baldwin (Welcome to Night Vale).
heathenwizard How would one eat that?
Ms. Harris is easily my favorite of the Atheist Experience crew. She's incredibly intelligent and insightful; seeing through to the heart of the matter quickly.
That just touched me and my husband so much and I am so glad that other people are talking about it especially you and your guest and thank you so much for bringing that to the Forefront it means a lot and it brings great relief and comfort for us that struggle with this everyday thank you so much Seth and to your guests for bringing this out and making us feel better about having issues with our family and toxic people in our lives
This lady is great. Tracie's got the brains bro!
Tracie was always my favorite host for The Atheist Experience, I didn't even know she was the one who did Atheist Eve. I had always liked that too.
theres no way a genocidal terrorist that once killed almost every human on earth and created all evil and disease is messed up
Totally agree! Let's kiss his ass and thank him when positive things occur and don't forget to blame the devil, which he created, when bad things occur.
well said. the bible is fiction and is the dumbest delusional shit ever created. created to manipulate, control, and make money.
Thank you for the brief glimpse into your life. I have always enjoyed seeing you on TAE.
Great interview, luv Tracie Harris! Nice to hear her honest talk about the relationship with her parents.
When I want to have a moment with Tracie, I put this interview. Love Tracie ❤️
Thanks for having Tracie on Seth, I always enjoy hearing her thoughts on religion. She's very bright/smart and makes very good points. I feel she thinks more "outside the box"
Tracie! I can't believe you got her to collab on your channel. Awesome!
Tracie is my favourite host on the TheAtheistExperience. One of my favourite persons in general actually. It's about time for a new marathon with TAE.
I love you Tracie
Knowing there are people like Tracie in the world restores my "faith" in humanity. What a truly wonderful human being.
Wow, I didn't think I could like Tracie anymore than I already did. Her points about parents really hit home for me. I am No Contact with my mother and it is great to hear someone I respect so much validate my situation. Thank you for everything, Tracie, and thank you for this upload.
Wow.. first time I've ever listened to a full show or yours Sir Seth -- was a fan of all your efforts and presentations outside your own channel for years -- and was instantly drawn to mentions of Tracie Harris, who I have likewise enjoyed for years on as co-pilot with USA's own 'Sir' Matt Dillahunty on Atheist Experience.
Must say, I was sincerely impressed by both the interviewer, and the guest. Honestly, was shocked at how brilliant Tracie came across. Her fast, yet in depth responses to discussion points were not something I was used to seeing so expansively while sharing shoulder space with Matt; quite impressive indeed.
Truly a great show for all participants, callers included.
Tracies take on morality is eye opening … what a beautiful human being… Thank you
I’m shocked how much in common I have with Traci! My wife and I are constantly telling people we’re boring. We stay home a lot. I retired from the military, loved mytime in but yet am not a lover of war. She does a great job and her upbeat attitude is just a joyful thing to see! I must say also Seth, you are totaly awesome! I love your content!
Re: 19 minute mark, or so...
When I was younger and attended AA meetings, one of the many things they would repeatedly say was "Fake it 'til you make it." This conversation of people 'talking a good game' made me think of that. In my case, I faked it and became even less of a believer (I did, at the time, consider myself "spiritual.") It wasn't later until I realized that I was simply re-defining "God" until I had re-defined him out of existence.
Timothy Carroll wow. That’s exactly my story as well. I never really believed, despite being raised in a very catholic home. In 97 I got sober. I was so desperate that I was willing to say, do, or believe anything. After about 10 years I couldn’t stand my own hypocrisy. My dad died at that time. He was the most honest, humble man I’ve ever met. On his deathbed, he was shaking, crying, and praying aloud to Jesus, asking him to not send him to hell for the things he did in the war (WWII). It disturbed me so much to see what religion did to this great man. It was at that moment I became an open, militant atheist. Even in the rooms of AA
Tracie's smile is magical
One of my experiences as an atheist with death is this.
Knowing we will die one day permanently forces us to make the best of everything NOW.
And believers, they do think they'll have forever.
Which is why they never spend time with people. REally spend time with them.
They are always looking towards heaven. Never on earth.
When a really close friend died, I was strangely at peace because I spent so much time with him during the last years before he died.
We have friends who have never seen him physically since we all graduated from school. Who are absolutely devastated at this death. I think it's a loss to be looking towards this heaven thing.
Tracie, I'm a US servicemember who is not pro war. Great example!
Seth, I don't know if you read comments on old videos, but this is great. And as far as I know Tracie has retired completely from the online Atheist community, but if you could get her back to talk again I think that could be a great talk.
I miss Tracie so much. Last I heard, she was a board member for Foundation Beyond Belief.
I think she's just gorgeous!
She could be in an oil of olay commercial. She's no spring chicken but damn she still looks fantastic. And without all the make up and camera filters.
Intelligence is sexy
Yes!
22:02
"meet me halfway"; a sentiment that comes from a spirit of fairness and self-worth.
What many Christians call "humility" is really just glorified self-deprecation;
while they cower under one hand, in fear,
and hold out the other in greed.
What Tracie was advocating for, when she took that position,
is:
well-balanced humility.
And it really is essential to being able to identify, pursue, achieve, and maintain any healthy relationship.
If there is a guy (ANY "he"; or even and "she") that is not interested in that,
or not capable of that,
then they remain unworthy of
a relationship with
any person that CAN have (and does want) a healthy relationship.
Being able to have a healthy relationship
starts with having a healthy relationship with our self.
Christian-god, as described by Christians,
does not have
a healthy relationship with his self;
and would, then, not able to have one with anyone else.
Well spoken. Can you explain what you mean by: "Christian-god, as described by Christians, does not have a healthy relationship with his self." ?
(Shortened, upon edit)
(original/longer version, backed up to the cloud)
The character doesn't know himself.
It can't discern its own failings
and so it can't grow, adapt, or be reasoned with.
-just not the sort of guy you can take home to meet your parents.
Not James, however, I have always felt that the Christian God as they describe him is a narcissist with serious self-esteem and anger issues. If you were a real God, would you need the first 4 commandments? Would you care that some people are worshiping the idols of other gods, false or not? In a real world sense, that's like a father getting abusively angry that his children also love their mother. We would say something is very, very wrong with a father who acts in that manner and that he needs some kind of treatment/psychological help.
In order to be such a narcissistic, angry person, you have some serious internal problems and doubts about yourself. You overcompensate for your internal doubts by forcing everyone else to prop you up constantly. Or else...
yeah;
what she said :)
4:13 "You have a life, right?" ugh, dont lifestyle shame. i love how unapologetic tracie was with answering that she's 'boring but not bored'. genius
Quote of the video "Hitler had relatives" ^_^;
Thanks Tracy for being such a straight honest talker. You expressed those tricky ideas so very well. I have always struggled with being the odd egg in the family and have had tremendous guilt about not having strong relationships with them. Sometimes you just need to here that some else had the same experience and it is completely ok that you don't have the Disney sugar sweet family that society makes you must have.
I hope Tracie would return to the ACA along with a few of the other past hosts.
28:42 - "There are some people who, their biggest contribution to make the world a better place is their death." Daaaaaaaaaaaaamn, that's some serious shade thrown! Compassion for Tracie though, that the people she said that about were her own parents, given the abusive relationships that implies.
She is a wonderful person! And I've had a crush on her since college 😳
Beauty and brains. An unbeatable combination.
Seth, thanks SO much for having Tracie on your show!
What she said about family and marriage/alternative lifestyles so resonated with me.
I like how she just came out and addressed that parents don't necessarily need to be put on a pedestal...especially when they did not earn the respect. She slaughtered that "Sacred Cow".
I’m similar to Tracie. I feel like I am boring. I like things low key. I’m introverted. I’m social, but not all the time. I like hearing and seeing a glimpse into Tracie’s life. She’s pretty open.
My favourite line of Tracy's love without evidence is stalking
Tracie Harris is definitely my favorite host on The Atheist Experience. I definitely enjoy her perspectives on anything honestly, even if i don't quite agree, she has a way of making me see a different side of things i wouldn't necessarily have otherwise thought of. This channel does that for me as well, so, this interview was especially interesting and fun to watch.
I’m among those who first realize what real grief is - grief seemingly over the loss of everything. Finding other interests and occupations that highlight who I was all along reminds me I didn’t lose everything. Perhaps I have gained.
I tell people all the time that just because you share DNA with someone doesn't give them the right to abuse you. It is a choice whether or not to continue relationships with people.
I've always found the aura Tracie projects to be genuine, open, and unassuming. Her view of her parents brought another insight to which I can relate.
I spent a fair portion of my childhood wondering whether my unstable mother would murder me in my sleep -- a tad confusing for a developing mind and personality. At some point around 8y/o, I made note that some people are generally happy while others are generally not, irrespective of their circumstance.
I decided I would go with happy. And so, apparently, has Tracie who is a marvelously appealing individual.
This addition to your show will go down as one of my favorites! Thank-you Seth. Tracie is a gem. :)
This is this the best conversation I’ve ever heard.
Tracie, as a former Evangelical, poly, married (going on 18 years) man, who struggles like hell to honor my wife's rigidly monogamous view of our relationship, thanks for what you said here on the topic.
Great interview. ❤
Two of my favourite people to listen to. Calm and insightful.....Thanks Seth.
That was an awesome conversation. Thanks!
I love her analogy about assuming soldiers love war. I frequently find myself engaged in debate while also wishing the debate weren't necessary. For that matter, based on nineteen years (so far) as a Police/Fire/EMS Dispatcher, most police officers would _much_ prefer to live in a world where police were no longer necessary. I suspect the same is true of many (if not most) soldiers. As for grief-stricken parents of a dead child, finding comfort in their belief that the child is now with God, I've actually seen a few. Growing in in Utah, the LDS faith is so pervasive that people's faith is constantly reinforced to that high a degree. Either that, or even in their moments of deepest despair, they feel the need to "perform" for fear of (A) ruining somebody else's faith by sharing their own doubt or (B) losing their support system because, in that environment, anything that even resembles apostasy is treated with social...if not organizational...shunning. Coming from this background, when Tracie said, "If they weren't my parents, they would not be people I would want to be close to in my life," I totally felt that one...especially considering my mom's whole side of the family (not including my mom herself) AND my sister's family are all LDS.
I don’t know who will see this but I am just getting into this huge community of you guys ... wow. I like life better now.
Welcome ☺
Great conversation :-) I agree it is so important to be able to be honest (at least to yourself) about your family. Letting go of who you wish they would be for you is so important. I have had to cut off a family member and it has given me the space to grow.
Great show Seth, glad I got to be a small part of it.
Responding to the part where Tracie and Seth talk about boundaries. Tracie gives the example of the person who just walks into their friend's home unannounced and they'd tried many passive-aggressive, subtle techniques to get them to stop, to no avail. Tracie states she doesn't understand why people can't be direct and why it's so hard. While I agree because I'm the type of person who is blunt to a fault and I sometimes lack tact in being so direct, some people have a terrible fear of confrontation. They don't know how someone will respond to their directness and the anxiety that produces prevents them from being direct. I'd cut the friends some slack. Most people would pick up on the subtle hints and refrain from such obtrusive behavior such as walking in unannounced, but the sort of person who would do that in the first place obviously lacks the ability to think outside of themselves. They lack the ability to perceive how their rudeness for just showing up and letting themselves in might cause discomfort. Total disregard for the boundaries of others. It's not likely that they will receive such directness well. If I were offering advice to them by telling them to be direct, I'd also offer the caveat that they have to be prepared to lose this person as a friend. Not everyone has the ability for self awareness and maturity and one needs to be cognizant of that when choosing to be direct. I personally prefer directness. I don't have the patience nor the energy to agonize over people who will not respect my boundaries, but I also understand that not everyone feels comfortable being as direct as I might be.
Tracy is rapidly becoming my favorite atheist activist. With a list of giants before her. She keeps it so calm and matter of fact with all her statements.
Tracie is great, I love her directness and clarity.
I tried being a monk for fourteen months at three different places and came to the conclusion that the monks were basically sleep walking through life grooving on the institutional living which in a monastery is even more all pervasive than merely being a lifer in the navy, for instance, since of course they typically can’t have the equivalent of living off base in their own apartment, don’t retire, don’t get paid, and don’t get pensions. So they just stay there until they expire. But there was a sort of weird fluidity to their beliefs and mental states such that one got the strong impression that they were actually no more religious than most anyone else, based upon the way they typically spoke about things. So this is how I formed the distinct impression that this was essentially a lifestyle choice motivated by a desire to drop out of the rat race, which of course is pretty underwhelming. This is why I would bet that persons dropping out of the monastery frequently also quit attending church as well. And most new people do drop out. Also people who have been there for decades drop out as well, especially if their parents die and they come into money. Then also you get people who switch denominations after dropping out. After quitting a Catholic monastery I subsequently ran into the guy in the cell next to mine at an Anglican Catholic parish attending mass there even those Anglican Catholics are not Catholics at all but actually schismatic high church Episcopalians. So who knows what he was thinking. I thought that he might have been laying the ground work to put one over on this new denomination looking for a cushier set up to go move into. But I thought that these monasteries were so annoying that I’d most definitely prefer just working for the Salvation Army and living in one of their flophouses rather than put up with all the over-compensating monastic horseshit. Of course in the Salvation Army you can’t drink or smoke like you can in a Catholic monastery. And monks tell the best dirty jokes.
I adore Tracie Harris
Tracie's reluctance to actually take these debates is one of the reasons she is so good at it. She doesn't want to just speak over everyone all the time to say her bit, unless it is vitally important. Instead, she takes the time to pursue the Socratic method. Posing a question, listening to the answer and asking another question based on that. It goes a long way to leading people to an understanding of what they believe and then, having tried to explain the reasons for it to another person, they begin to realize what they do or don't have explanations for. It's refreshing, honestly.
Tracie is one of those people that have a contagious smile. I find myself watching with a big dumb smile on my face.
Watching all the ads showing my love for this channel. LOL
+TheThinkingAtheist, I want to thank Tracie for her commentary on family. I had very abusive "parents" who cut off contact with me -- Seth, I think that I've mentioned this to you -- and cousins who blame me for the lack of contact. I would constantly second-guess myself as in "Am I wrong and what could I have done differently?", but hearing Tracie's story showed me that I'm not the only one and sometimes that's the way it has to go, and that helped me immensely. So, thank you again, Tracie.
Tracie: For heaven's sake (!) you're such a positive influence on the athiest community! Let that shine and own it! I identify with you so much in the way you live your life, except that I was never indoctrinated. I did grow up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, so I was surrounded by so many Bible thumpers that it does give me some insight into that indoctrination. I also grew up gay in Oklahoma, so I consequently moved to West Hollywood a few years after finishing university.
You are so intelligent, well spoken, thoughtful and positive in your approach to your athiest work, so that has a real impact on many of us, I'm sure. You're a beautiful person and it shows through that infectious smile. Keep up the good work!
Knowing she is a graphic designer makes me love her more, Tracie is one awesome person!
Nice video, another side of Tracie we did not know about. My admiration for what you both do.
Thanks for the plug Tracie !
I'm just now seeing this video years later.
Tracie the best contribution your parents made from myPOV, was bringing you into the world.
Tracy mentioned that she did her best... The echoes of Christianity rang through my head declaring, "Your best is never enough!" You are never enough.... NEVER... Only Jesus is what makes you enough, but you, you are never enough on your own. Sounds abusive doesn't it?
I have the most respect and admiration for TH
what really amazes me is how much of harmony is out there between secular talk shows!
Thanks Traci, my mother was like Livia Soprano. I left at 18 and haven't been back. At 74 I no longer feel guilty. Thanks again.
She's so smart, I'm really enjoying her insight. c:
Being assertive and having boundaries is not being rude. I wish more people would understand that. Also, you can be honest without being a jerk.
23:13 that laugh. Dude could fall in love. I don't really believe in a "spirit" but if such a thing exists, Tracie's is beautiful.
Love both of these people. They both manage to be confident without coming off as arrogant. Matt fails on the latter, from time to time but I still think he’s great too.
15:18 reminded me of something my father told me many years ago. He had an aunt , a member of the Congregational Church (a liberal institution, then and now) who, as she lay dying had only one concern. "What if those Adventists were right all along? What if we were supposed to go to church on Saturday? I don't want to go to Hell."
Tracie come back!
Tracy is a light and hope,a true free thought activist..
I love Tracie; She's so down to earth.
There are no gods to mess up!
Tracie is so amazing!!!! =D Every sane person Loves Tracie!!!!
Very nice interview, I always enjoy listening to Tracie.