I think I've reached the point where I've gotten over the damage religion did to me, and I want to do other things besides circling around and around the religious issue. There's a time for that with everyone leaving religion, and some have more work to do to rid them selves of it's former influences than others, but, there should come a time where that's OVER. It's not that you don't retain a sensitivity, and even an occasional outrage over religions harmful effects (past, present, or future), but the anger doesn't burn quite as hot as it once did. That's my take on this from some 8-10 years out of the religious fold. I don't read atheist books nearly as much as I once did. Now I just enjoy my life! That's a very effective way of continuing to nullify religion! Live. Be happy. Love and help yourself, and others.
My outrage of what I was forced to do is gone but my outrage over what religion does to society and the goals of the most devout members are very scary. They just won a 50 year battle over Roe v Wade during a time when religiousness is on the decline. I see it like an abusive relationship when the person realizes the other is leaving and that's when they freak out and attack. We are at that point right now in my opinion but even at "normal" times religion hurts everyone it touches. The indoctrinated are not living their best life and those of us on the outside are affected by the wacky laws and rules that they don't even follow themselves but want to impose on society. For this reason we need to stay vigilante to this cult of death. At the end of the day they are hoping the world ends and their savior comes while the world burns and I say this is an evil that must be confronted and stopped.
@@FearlessNimue ... Yes, as in Pagan Religions : These days - anything that ISN'T one of the Abrahamic Faiths ... but generally speaking, things like Wiccans, Druids, Shamans, Sacred Ecologists, Odinists and Heathens
I've come up to Michigan for three months to visit my grandparents. At every supper, they say amen. I respect them, and their traditions, so I hold hands. But as they bow their heads and close their eyes, I hold my head high.However, yesterday, my grandfather asked me to say grace at the table, and I polity declined. At first he laughed it off, but later he told me that I didn't have enough experience to know anything. I quickly shot him down, telling him that I have been respecting his traditions and beliefs, and asking him to do the same.
I’ve been in this same situation Asked to say grace before a meal , so I did I thanked the farmers that grew the food, I thanked the migrant workers that picked the food having left their homeland , I gave thanks for the dedicated truck drivers that delivers the food all over the country , and the shop keepers who work so hard to keep fresh food on the shelves, and I thanked my grandparents for working so hard to earn money to buy it, And finally I gave thanks for the sun , since without its light nothing would grow . No one really picked up on what I said , or what I didn’t say , Which I’m guessing is because they weren’t really listening. However My grandfather did pull me to one side later that day and asked me why I didn’t thank god , So I told him , I was an atheist His reply shocked me to my core , he said “ so am I, don’t tell your grandmother, and I don’t want to talk about it again” My grandfather still went to church every Sunday, prayed nightly … all just to keep my grandmother happy. But they never talked about it I always think wouldn’t it have been funny if they were both atheists, but just pretending to be Christians to keep each other happy. Sadly both have passed away now So il never know.
@@mickqQ "I always think wouldn’t it have been funny if they were both atheists, but just pretending to be Christians to keep each other happy." Utterly tragic, not funny.
Regarding that woman who refused to even view your video, small-minded people are often deeply frightened by the mere thought that there is ANY viewpoint differing from their own.
Fear of hellfire and damnation is paralyzing to the religious. They can't change. I've watched people lose their faith, become atheists, then go back to be with their religious friends.They miss the social contact the church offers.
The new 10 Atheist (Non) Commandments. So much better than what some supreme being put together. In other words, we are, our own god. 1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence. 2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true. 3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world. 4. Every person has the right to control of their body. 5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life. 6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them. 7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective. 8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations. 9. There is no one right way to live. 10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.
Kai Green These were part of submissions that were chosen as the top picks in light of the growing "exodus" away from organized religion. I think they were trying to prove a point. But anyhow, to quote Carlin, there should be an 11th ... "Thy shall keep the religion to thyself".
I follow the Seven Fundamental Tenets of The Satanic Temple. *One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason. *The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. *One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. *The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own. *Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. *People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused. *Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
I greatly appreciate that he respects everyone's right to hold their own *personal* beliefs. I am Catholic and I understand how non-religious people might think its ridiculous, but my religious belief is for my own peace of mind. And I would never force my religion onto anyone because I do respect everyone's right to their own beliefs, not even my own children if they choose to stray away from religion. Though I definitely think that there are many lessons that can be learned from the stories in religion. I am also very willing to alter my opinion according to new information I am given and I would never be so ignorant as to immediately rebuke something just because it may contradict my beliefs(like how that lady refused to view the video). However, I probably won't ever stop believing in my religion because I feel like I need it in my life. But I would never deliberately affect others negatively. I am not very articulate but I wanted to put my opinion out there...I hope my point came across...though I am not sure if I even made sense. Just to clarify, I this opinion of mine with all due respect.
*YOU ARE* coming thru *loud & clear!* ..."I would never force my religion onto anyone *because I do respect* everyone's *right* to their *own beliefs..."* Thank you, my (our) country (the USA) has a *secular* constitution and is a *secular* democratic republic FORM of *government.* The Jeffersonian genius and wisdom of the American experiment in religious freedom is that we are not: a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation; or: *ANY nation* that is founded on *a single religion.* *Any attempt to claim or create a Christian theocracy is a grave danger to our democracy.* *So, SEE Kay ... you fit right in!*
That they spend so little, if anything, on actual charity is why I think religious organizations should not have tax exempt status unless they meet a certain threshold of money taken in to money out for non-church focused charity. If people want to have their clubs, that's fine, but the government (and thus the people) should get a cut of that pie if the church isn't going to give it charitably.
As much as I don't like religion I don't like this talk of clubs paying a cut to the government. Also, religion might be bad for people but the militaryindustrial complex that gets most of our tax dollars isn't exactly about helping people either
I really, really, thoroughly enjoyed this podcast discussion. The speaker is very accurate, logical and open in his thinking. Very intelligent, I'm interested in checking out his book. And great questions Seth!
I have many friends who are Christian and I myself am an Atheist, I have to keep my mouth shut when they are on line spouting all of their Jesus stuff, because I am jumped on by a couple of them as soon as I start to ask them questions about their knowledge of the bible. I have found that the majority of them have NEVER read the entire book thru. I have and I did, when I myself was a christian, because I had the need to know if what I was basing my life on was true in any way, except for basing it on "Faith". After reading it and then asking questions about it, I never got a straight answer from a single one of the christian's I was around at the time, they had a lot of circular arguments, and a lot of arguments from ignorance, and invoked Pascal's wager a lot, but never gave me any concrete answer's for what I was asking about the reality of the religion, and why they do certain things. I dumped it, because I have to use my brain, and the way I looked at it is that, if there were a god ( which there is no proof of period) and it was going to throw me into a pit of fire for eternity for using the brain it ( supposedly) gave me and coming to the conclusion that this god does not exist. If this god (for one) is omnipotent, then it knew before it created me that I would not believe in it, so if it had a need for all of it's creation to believe in it, then it should have implanted it into our brains in a way that could not be denied. I am not positive that there is not a god, and if somehow one day there comes to light a way of finding out for sure that it is real, than I would consider allowing myself to look further into it to satisfy myself thru logical reasoning. Until then, God ( and I am going to say this sarcastically) is only a "Theory". Actually religious people have a problem understanding what a scientific theory is.
Randy , Christians are taught/develop a whole battery of self-defense mechanisms. A lot of it is bluster. Sorry you are on the front line but they will tire of trotting out the same old stuff eventually
@butch oblick I disagree, hypothesis is a scientific term and giving any creation MYTH any scientific credibility, intended or not. is wrong. At best it gives them more credit then they deserve and at worst, it opens the door for them to teach it in schools and worse, in science class. I can hear them now : " If you agree it's an hypothesis, surely you can't argue against teaching this hypothesis and discussing it in class along with all the other hypotheses and theories ?" " Or can only Hypotheses and Theories, you believe in be thought in schools ?"/ Please. for all our sanity, do not use the term Creation, Hypothesis....lol
Yes, ppl sitting around waiting on Jesus to save them, waiting on his return, waiting for prayers to be answered, but not very often getting off their asses to do anything about anything. That's the problem, that's why our country is going to shit.
The whole social network change thing has been working well on my girlfriend, I don't usually bring up religion as we both understand where we stand (I don't believe, she kinda does? it's complicated.) however to my knowledge none of her friends or the people we hang out with (my friends mostly) are religious. She recently asked me about if we would introduce our hypothetical future children to religion, she said she was leaning towards no. This was coming from someone who would be considered a 100% sinful person due to her very nature and sexual orientation, but still wholeheartedly believed that god loves her dearly. Many of you will know that this was like an atheist leaning towards teaching his/her kids about religion (as in to become religious, not against it), I consider this proof that this works, feel free to quote me in future research done on the matter ;3
I've got two friends that are ex-Mormons that say their two years was the worst time of their lives and that that was the beginning of their desire to leave the cult. One became a gay porn producer and the other a bio-scientist. They hated and dreaded sharing the "cult faith." Very few are brought into the church through that method any more.
A reason for the non-religious being more intelligent, on average, is that their intelligence enables them to reason their way out of their religion more than a less intelligent person. After all, most of us were raised in some religion, with the information revolution, more are finding their way out of their religion.
My 9th grade religion teacher planted the seed of doubt when it came to Jesus' divinity. He said. - Modern Christians don't believe in the Old Testament as literal history. It's just meant to teach lessons (I live in a blue state.) It was then that I started thinking maybe the New Testament isn't a history lesson either. Thanks Mr. V.
Is curiousity related to intelligence or not? Some people are just incurious. They only want to knowas much as they HAVE to in order to get by. I'm the opposite, I recently started watching videos about farming even though I will never farm anything.
What did it for me was my own morality. And actually reading the Bible starting from Genesis. I could accept that god had his warriors kill tribes because they were wicked. But when he told them to hamstring the horses I just knew I couldn’t love this god. I couldn’t be a christian. I did however struggle with anxiety for years that I would go to hell.
You are not alone! Not only do I agree but, Martin Luther claimed the biggest threat to religion is rationalism. What we now call critical thinking, which if educated well we learn how to do in school.
paranor001 i have to differ with your original post ..... i'm surely not the sharpest crayon in the box buuuuuut ..... and using the imperfect IQ score for a moment .. the average IQ is considered 100 ..... i don't know what your IQ has been tested at, or if it's been tested, but people with that average score don't seem all that bright ....... and half the world scores lower than average...... so depending on your reference point ...... most people are stupid on a good day no matter how likeable they might be ..... no matter how well they might do financially (even a blind squirrel will find nuts) ... and in spite of "God given " intelligence...... most people are indeed stupid
mike e Even "the stupid" when taught basic thinking skills, can process things better than those not taught. When there are fundamental flaws in a person's thinking, it brings their processing of reality, making them less cognitive of their surroundings and it's happenings, making them more stupid. Correct those flaws, and the cognitive processing on reality increases, making them less stupid. IQ tests are designed for specifics, and become less accurate the more generalized it is. Then there's EQ. Plus with how we vary in how we learn, as people, perhaps with proper education for that person will discover a genius.
mike e In my opinion, stupidity is not about a low IQ or being ignorant. It's about the illusion of knowledge and the absence of rationality. Being wrong is not a bad thing - unless you put your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept it.
Gryffix ....... yes the Dunning Kruger effect ...... but that is a function of stupid ........ intelligence is not that a person has learned but that they have the capability ........ dumb lack the ability to learn with the same level of ease as paranor001 stated above "stupid" people can be taught to learn ....... problem is they often aren't bright enough to realize they need help learning to learn and of course i feel that religion plants an easy to grasp seed that takes root and chokes out any glimmer of critical thinking and yes i know many incredibly bright people who are religious but it seems to me that they compartmentalize much more effectively where the "stupid " person lets the action of "uncritical" thinking overload whatever "rationality circuitry " their brain might contain...... and that is exactly what politicians and religious pundits are banking on
I am always amazed when I ask someone if they believe evolution is true and they answer no. "I believe the Bible is true." I actually get a little bummed out, I feel like they have never thought about it and are answering with a preexisting response.
I’m from the UK and as about 80% of Brits are non religious we don’t have to worry about being atheist so much. Religion (or lack of) is not a subject that has ever been raised with me during my lifetime (I’m 60). I did go to Sunday school when I was young but first doubted the truth if religious teachings when I was about 8 years old. I have had my IQ tested twice and I score in the top 2% so I was capable of critical thinking at that young age.
Good show. Dr Cragun does such a good job of unpacking what the data really shows, without undue bias. Religious people have a great incentive to "spin" the data toward their side, when often they take liberties to make religious association seem more positive than it is. I gotta get the book.
I don't really care one way or another about the whole Christmas thing, I don't like it being shoved down my throat by my very spiritual mother-in-law and generally react more harshly in those cases. But I enjoy spending time with my family and oh god I do love 3 weeks off work to do whatever I want; I love meat, roast potatoes, sprouts and many of the other things that are associated with the winter solstice holidays.
I was accused of the following during a comment discussion on a different video: "You seem to think, despite your lack of recitation of anything but scientific dogmatic orthodoxy, that you have a stranglehold on truth, or legitimate inquiry." This one is not going to be positively influenced by being associated with more skeptical people.
Re: happiness and religious fundamentalism...the Christian evangelical fundamentalists I had contact with online claimed to be happy. But the more time I spent communicating with them, the more they seemed scared all the time. They believed that if they "backslid" even a little, their being "saved" would be invalid and God would "spit them out of His mouth". So they felt like they had to be constantly self-vigilant and constantly keeping themselves on track. It seemed like a really miserable way to live.
Growing up in a strict Baptist home “getting saved” didn’t interest me much. Nobody that was “saved” seemed to be enjoying life. But I “got saved” anyway as a teenager because I didn’t want to go to hell. Such horror stories supposedly moral people tell their kids.
Robert Sapolsky has given another point on the metaphysical wiring that religions exploit, sort of quick-learning mode in early stages of child's development, when it's beneficial to accept certain don't-s unconditionally -- mostly the ones that could be deadly when left for the child to figure out on it's own
"...We don't know if people who are clinically depressed are seeing the world in more realistic ways because they're clinically depressed, or they're clinically depressed because they see the world in more realistic ways, we honestly don't know the causal direction here." ... Well fuck, this explains a lot, even if we don't know the causal direction, it fucking explains a fucking LOT with the way I see the world.
Good word 'fuck'... sadly, too many people doing too much fucking resulting in too many people, lol. Religion is against birth control. Ya know, life is 'precious' to religious people, but its okay to kill homosexuals., and anyone who doesn't have pink skin and blue eyes. I think religion is a mental illness. 'Loving somone' (Jesus)who has never been seen. But they 'hear' him., er his 'daddy'. Hmmm maybe they have schizophrenic hallucinations and delusional. Just a thought, lol.
I like Sam Harris's line about how the problem is not the Islamic fundamentalists it the fundamentals of Islam. It is applicable to pretty much any other religion to some degree and certainly to the other Abrahamic religions. He was juxtaposing this with fundamentalist Jains who are almost debilitatingly pacifistic. It seems to me that the fundamentalists aren't acting in the name of other people in their religion they are acting in the name of their religion.
I think the "I'm not going to interfere with my child's discovery of religion" mindset generally comes from a reaction to the childhood indoctrination that's so popular with the religious.
Well , I guess something must be wrong with me ! I don't shun or turn away these young people when they come to my door , instead I invite them in to perhaps have a spirited religious conversation and challenge them to look at their beliefs and why they believe as they do ! After all would they not feel equally as dedicated and committed to Islam or Hinduism or scientology, erc , if they had been born or socialized into that cult ? I want to plant in them a seed of doubt and spark of critical thinking that I would not have had if I had rejected them ! We need to take the time to have these conversations with our fellow human beings to foster greater understanding toward an adoption of a more enlightened worldview !
This was a very informative show and I had thoroughly enjoyed Ryan and of course Seth. This show was, what, 5 yrs. old? Be interesting to see what the true atheist % is compared to religious and non-religious is now in US and other countries esp. Canada. Going to buy one of Cragun’s book for sure soon. In a side note, watching Seth the last few years has helped me understand people and religion a lot more to making me a bonafide atheist. Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Shermer etc. built my atheist foundation. From there, Seth Andrews mould me into a mature Atheist.
We had a pair of Mormon missionaries in the small town where I lived for a couple of years. One's last name was actually Elder. So he was Elder Elder. I'm not kidding.
Interestingly, my path has been the opposite painted here. I gradually moved away from all superstition-based beliefs and took a live-and-let-live attitude. I did not feel harmed by religion. But as I get older, I find myself more militantly against religion because of the harm it does in the world. Family members who think atheists or gays should not hold office or be teachers are harmful people depriving others of their civil rights by removing the boundary between religion and government. More militant religious believers are responsible for beheadings and bombings and physically dangerous actions. To know this is still happening as I enter my older age is dismaying and can make me very angry.
That is very worrying to hear about the growth of religiosity in the world. I really hope that it dies down in the future, or maybe as those countries modernize they will have a strong drop in religion because of the access to information.
There's strong evidence that as a country develops the religiosity of its populace goes down. Check out the World Values Survey for lots of data on that.
I think the only country that bucks this trend is the USA, Europe is heading reasonably rapidly to being completely secular. Even here (the UK) which has an established church, we're 51% atheist/ agnostic/ none of the above
Jeremy Bowser Yeah, some people just check the (e.g.) "Christian" box by force of habit. If they thought about it they would check the "None" box instead. I was doing that up to about 15 years ago when I thought - "What am I doing?" and checked "None", which I do regularly now. I know in the UK churches are closing down regularly. In Canada, we are also seeing this trend with small towns with, say, five churches now down to one or two - usually a Catholic church and a Pentecostal or J-Ws the only ones still open. We are up to 25% "none" and climbing.
Rhodri Curnow in the US religion is also closely tied to politics ... at least that's how the political parties deal with it. The US is becoming much more tribal than I've ever seen it in my 56 years and a fundamental identity management tool used by the political parties is religion. The actual value or truth of the religion to the self-described religious person may not be all that's involved in the tribal identity they have included themselves in. Expect this to get far worse before it gets any better, if it gets any better.
this is my question: Do you really think you will change somebody by bothering them at their door? Do you not think about how you are invading someone's private time and space with your own agenda? Are you doing this because it is required by your church, because you are bored or do you expect to be invited in for in depth conversation? 1. What will it take to dissuade you from this practice? 2. What sign can I make which will make you leave my porch? Should Christians Preach the Gospel Door to Door (Acts 20:20)? A quick reading of Acts 20:20 might give the impression that the apostle Paul went from house to house to preach the gospelof the Kingdom to the unconverted. The context, however, beginning with verse 17, reveals the true meaning. The apostle Paul "sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church," and said to them "I . . . taught you publicly and from house to house" (Acts 20:17-20). Paul taught the leaders of the church in their own homes. He was not going from house to house attempting to witness to or persuade whomever opened the door. Jesus Christ and His apostles shows we should not to preach from house to house. Neither should we accept into our homes any peddlers of religion who might show up on our doorstep.
I got one better +thethinkingatheist ! I live in Fort Wayne Indiana, and although our fair city is trending at moments in right direction (we actually have an annual pride week,) we currently have about 360 churches located here in what I can only label "The Bible Belt Buckle of Indiana." The reason for this is that we have a majority of rural communities surrounding the city where fundamental religion is the life style, particularly with the Amish and Apostolic faiths. It's brutal having conversations with "folks up round these parts." (Said in my best Midwest accent.)
It would be great to hear Dr Cragun's opinion about how much property the LDS church actually owns, and give us an idea of how many businesses it runs worldwide, which is/are being owned or conducted without taxation or restrictions. Those he defines as liberally religious, which he says don't scare him, I think he should be scared of them, as should we all be. They are the very ones who by virtue of their existence give implied support and enablement to the fundamentalist-terrorist types. They are a spawning matrix for the killers.
The direction of causality is an interesting inquiry. I'd like to think that the reason why religion ultimately became unpalatable to me was because its tenets didn't make sense. The truth is that I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I didn't separate myself from my religious community for enough time to allow myself the freedom to doubt. The particular cult I came out of (Jehovah's Witnesses) discourage outside research, so I didn't really tap into any resources until I realized Big Brother wasn't there. That being said, I wonder if I would have caught a milder religious infection if I weren't introduced to Watchtowerdom, since only on leaving that cult did I bother to research my 'illness'.
Interestingly, on polls about happiness, health, wealth, obesity, etc. the south is doing horribly in all of them. They are the poorest, have the worst job employment rates and bad jobs, the least healthy, the fattest (granted there was not a single spot of 'average' on the map so the US is rather fucked there), and the worst education. And the map of all those things seems to align perfectly with the map of the most fundamentally religious locations. Coincidences like that don't happen for nothing, but it'd be interesting to have it studied in depth. Are they more religious because their lives are so bad and that sense of community has become the only 'happiness' in an otherwise dreary and awful place, or is the area so absolutely awful because they are so highly religious? (I'd guess it's a combination of the two leading to a vicious cycle that makes it all worse.)
You can't talk people out of their beliefs, you can only help them talk themselves out of wrong ideas. Street epistemology seems to be the way forward. Looking from the outside at the US religious scene it appears to me that it offers the kind of social and practical support wr in Europe get from the state. I'm constantly amazed at the strong anti-government, anti tax stance espoused by most if not all religious devotees yet they're happy to tithe to their church and accept all kinds or social control and restrictions from their religion. Just mad.
I also take issue with the concept of not talking to your kids about religion because you don't want to influence them. This giving religion a privilege it doesn't deserve. Do we think this way in regards to other knowledge?
You misunderstand the point of teaching critical thinking skills and informing children of one's own opinion instead of forcing it down their throats. If a parent says, "Don't believe in deities," it's merely another form of indoctrination, and it stands in contrast to what true skeptics are supposed to be about: examining evidence without merely taking the word of another. Sure, there's an element of parental trust at play, and children can and should be guided, but teaching a child what to think instead of how to think is not something to be lauded.
***** What about infant genitalia mutilation? Circumcision? They call out the swamp boats in Arizona whenever a child goes missing. Or they tell us that child molesters are the worst people imaginable yet FUCKING YET it's OK to strap down kids and cut their genitals for a bronze aged blood cult war god. Someone explain that one to me especially considering now that circumcision is not a recommended medical procedure. The real reason they cut babies is because they have a fucked up view about sex and they think by removing the 'naughty' anatomical parts that makes sex pleasurable they're doing the will of god. I'LL REPEAT THAT! THE REAL REASON CIRCUMCISION IS DONE IS BECAUSE IT STEMS FROM A LONG HELD TRADITION THAT SEEKS TO REMOVE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE THE CHILD'S ANATOMICAL PARTS THAT MAKE SEX FEEL GOOD. Do a show on that Seth. Or are you too scared to?
***** 1) Decaf. 2) Nothing I've said about the indoctrination of minds has anything to do with genital mutilation, so either you're missing the point entirely, or you're just eager to co-opt another discussion to fit your own soapbox. Also, baiting the host by saying "are you too scared to" is the equivalent of a religious person posting a Jesus meme on Facebook and saying, "If you care, you'll share." Unimpressive and ineffective. Move on, folks. Nothing to see here.
Circumcision is a sex crime against humanity. It's immoral and unnecessary. The real reason circumcision is done is to remove from the anatomy those anatomical parts that make sex feel good. You see, many religions and therefore religious people are fucking retarded therefore their beliefs are also fucking retarded so they think that by removing the prepuce or the labia or the clitoris that this will somehow make people less likely to procreate and/or masturbate. If this doesn't send up red flags THEN WHAT WOULD? Circumcision is now known to cause all sorts of peculiar mental and physical side effects in men. The deed affects everyone differently but deep down I'm convinced that the deed is responsible for many of the psychopaths and sociopaths in the world today. Just lay a map of nations that mutilate over a map of nations that are at war and it's a damn near match. My dick my pick. My body my choice. Sex is beautiful and awesome and in my opinion alone any group or cult that says otherwise should be aggressively revealed. Seth, you've disrespected me for the last time Sir. I've tried to talk to you with respect because I used to respect you but now I don't. I'm now removing myself from your channel. Good luck and have a good life and when you die and find yourself in a man-made virtual reality style hell simulator. Don't say I didn't warn you Sir. Good Day.
***** Wow. I feel like this person went off the deep end. Somehow not having foreskin causes psychopaths and sociopaths? I'd like to see data on that....... I have foreskin if you were curious. I am pretty ambivalent about it.
I disagree with the author on liberal xtians. They are big in number and through their tacit support, shelter the hardliners, they provide the power of numbers and dollars and votes that perpetuate the human suffering those few in religious power deliver through them. Without that base, those hardliners would be handful of isolated cranks that no one would take the least notice of.
I will need to read the book, but my first thought about arming atheists with talking points when talking with Christians, or other religious people, is that data does not sway people to change. Seth made a video on Restoring Perspective and Humanity in the Era of Outrage. In it he brought up two examples the change was prompted by strong emotional response. One was the father who decided to leave the white supremacist group because he wanted a different life for his son. The other was the Muslim woman who went into the homes of white supremacists and asked "Don't you think I'm a human being," and other similar questions and was able to change the life of one man who left his white supremacist group and let go of his, now former, beliefs. In both cases the change was triggered by a strong emotional response. It's been shown that people can change their habits and attitudes more easily if there is an emotional element to why they want to change. It works no matter how big or small the change, and the emotional response doesn't need to be really strong, unless one is significantly changing lifelong beliefs and behaviors. So, I need to read the book to see what Ryan recommends in his book to see how he phrases the questions.
As a lifelong atheist, I have become more and more militant. And lately I'm building higher pressures a lot faster, my pot use has gone up to maintain the balance. But, I recognize the fundamentalists for what they really are, a violent, hate filled, unhinged serious threat to everyone in every city, in all 50 states. I can't help but feel that I need to rise up and meet that level of push back.
I know, they are in Sweden too. They hated me for 18 years. Now I have moved from there to a new place, town! At least I do not have to see the hate anymore!
"pagan" celebrations makes more sense. Probably because daylight increases in the northern hemisphere, every civilisation celebrates something during this time of the year either religiously (various feasts) or socially (new year).
I suggest that it's more important Not to be a theist rather than To be an atheist. Let me explain. I call myself an agnostic. I'm not really interested in gods. But I do believe in what people may call "supernatural". 2000 years ago people did not know any freakin thing about the air. So they believed your soul may temporarily exit your body when you sneeze, that's why they started saying "bless you". The Air was all around them always, but they had neither an idea nor the tools to detect it! Crazy, huh? Same with what I call Supernatural. I think it's all around, and the science will be discovering a lot of interesting things. Still, as a non-theist, I would never force my beliefs onto anyone, let alone demanding to teach them in school! I'm harmless. My belief in the after-biological-life helps me deal with depression. Because I celebrated my 35th birthday having 5th (fifth, yes) episode of atypical depression. I love animals. I want to save everyone. I know it's impossible. So, I do what I can, as for the rest -- I leave it to the Universe, so to speak. This makes my life a bit better. As for the "all children are born atheists", science says that [some] mammals have this inclination to believe in supernatural. I think all children are pagans =D What you cannot understand -- you think it's a miracle.
When he said fundamentalists are more prejudiced against "outgroups" it really backed up what I've sensed for a long time. The conservative church I used to belong to had started to appear to be as much of an exclusive culture as it was an embodiment of faith. Group think reigned and their social focus was very narrow. This is when I knew I had to get out.
Interesting discussion about violence and religion. It seems like Christians forget or dismiss that we had 100 years of crusades because of their religious belief versus the other religions that were in the Middle East. Now we know that the crusades actually were for political gains and economic gains by the then only Christian organization which was the Catholic church but they still see signs of that violence occurring in Christianity today even with the protestant sex of Christianity. Timothy McVeigh when he bombed the building, declared himself a Christian. In any of these militia groups that want to raise arms against other people also seem to declare themselves devout Christians.
Fascinating discussion. However, 31:00 to 31:50 I am very skeptical of the study Dr. Cragun cites. Depressed people see the world in more realistic ways? I wish I could read that study. Every single human being I have ever encountered in the throes of mild to intense depression--including myself within a clinical depressive state--is lost in as much of a fantasy world as the deluded happy people. Depressed people believe negative thoughts about reality--they are not seeing reality as it is. As soon as they look at the reality in front of them without those thoughts, the depression vanishes. The authors (of the study Dr. Cragun cites) might also claim that people who are in a state of perpetual joy and peace are not facing reality, or are ignoring all the horrible things that happen in this world. In my experience, facing reality without believing all the thoughts about it obliterates both depression and anxiety.
People believe things that bring them comfort, often they do this so often they build a world view that interferes with reason and rationally processing observable reality but even if they realise this the fear of their world falling apart as the result of relinquishing their perspective reinforces their dependency on it. But this is the bad side of beliefs, what we find is that beliefs themselves are no the problem here, the real problem is the emotional condition behind it. Emotions have their place and merits in life but they also stand to drive our behaviour and inclinations. The main obstacle to clarity is heightened impulsive psychological states, fear/desire/anger, these are the main ones, but most irrational behaviour is a result of these either directly or indirectly. Directly in the sense of seeing and reacting, indirectly in the sense of imagining scenarios that provoke these reactions. What beliefs can do is help us discipline these impulses and keep our knowledge in perspective of relevance, but as I said; beliefs can also create a stubborn frame of mind that could reject moral and practical solutions because they don't fit with how our beliefs have us see things, and that in itself is the result of a failure to discipline those impulses as they manifest in fear/desire/anger to reinforce the position.
Interesting, what Dr. Cragun says about liberally religious being allies in the fight against fundamentalism is the exact opposite of what Sam Harris says...personally, I agree with Sam Harris on that one
What's interesting is that he say himself "the best way to change someone's mind is by changing their social network, not by giving them good arguments". meaning that the best way to destroy fundamentalism is by de-converting the moderates around them. as he say, once someone agree that the scriptures are not entirely flawless, it's a slippery slope that can easily lead to de-conversion. so instead of attacking the fundamentalists stronghold of blind faith and unreasoning, reason with the moderates, they're the ones who allow the extremists to exist by justifying that faith is positive.
Mandalore863 And not just liberals of a specific religion, but liberals in general. There was a hostage situation in Australia the other day by a Muslim guy, resulting in multiple deaths & the liberals were out in force screaming "racist" at any one who pointed out that his religion was the driving force in this case, as it was when this same guy had his ex-wife murdered. Because in the minds of liberals minority = innocent victim.
The problem of liberal theists is interesting. In rejecting literalism, they often also reject divine revelation. Yet their entire worldview rests on the notion that someone else's divine revelation was, in essence, mostly correct, whether you're talking about liberal Christians or even some deists. It suggests the obvious question: "if this religious tradition is flawed, and its holy books contain man-created falsehoods, what tools could you possibly have to decide what in that book is real and what in that book is nonsense?" Fundamentalism thrives in a society where liberal theists give them cover. Frankly, if you believe an omniscient deity either wrote or inspired a holy book, reading that book cover to cover multiple times until you understand it should probably be the most important thing you could possibly do. If you're not doing that, it suggests that you're clinging onto a tradition rather than actively believing in it. These liberal theists are in effect living as functional atheists, but the cover they give to the supposed "good" of religion is exactly what the fundamentalist sects need in order to distort the political process, oppress the weak, and have a say in the workings of the nation far in excess of their actual power. We often have the bigger fights with people who agree with us on a lot of things but diverge on the details; it's often easier to have a spirited conversation with someone whose mind you know you couldn't possibly change.
***** all liberals are ... sounds like the regular bigots who say all are , the same as you say so many liberals always say all minority are not whatever. You are exactly the kind of person you are whining about.
〉Barm let me explain you what we mean by "liberals support the extremists". The extremist is someone who say "It's ok to believe without evidence, there's a god, he's revealed himself through scriptures, want people to do *something*, and if you don't you're less than me". As you see there's many stages to get to extremist, each supported by the previous one. "it's ok to believe without evidence" is non-sceptics, by saying this they give some support to "there's a god" : deists, who themselves support "he's revealed himself through scriptures and want you to do *something" : liberal theists, who in turn support "and if you don't you're less than me" : extremists. Each level can only exist because the previous one is there to absorb part of the criticism and make each increment socially acceptable. If there was only sceptics surrounding extremists, extremists would be constantly laughed at, and since humans are social creatures, that would change their mind more efficiently than any argument. but they have plenty of people of lower categories to shield them from this. Thus, the liberals are supporting the extremists, whether it's consciously or not, simply by making it socially acceptable to hold crazy beliefs in spite of all evidences to the contrary.
I think Joseph Goebbels would have loved the Mormon techniques. Where I live, we often get Jehovah's Witnesses coming round. _(usually only once)._ However, We've never had any Mormons. I would love a good argument with them.
Ex-Mormon here. The brainwashing techniques used by the leaders are truly amazing. They specifically try to demonize searching for actual facts about the church's history. Only the approved story from the church is taught. You have to actually dig on the internet or read books to discover the truth. It worked for 22 years on me, but finally researching the church's history (after a suicide attempt brought on by feelings of being better off dead than damned) made me realize that I was lied to my entire life.
@1:03:00 On anthropomorphizing computers - I was once teaching a girl I worked with how to do a task on the computer. I told her "You know you've been working with the computer too long when you start to talk to it as if it were a person." She said "Oh, I'll never do that." Five seconds after she made that statement, she's screaming at the computer "I SAID YES!" I said "There you see!"
Good on Dr. Cragun for leaving religion. What I don't get is people who STUDY bible for years and remain theists. All I did was read it and I was done.
Knew a guy back in highschool that actually used "christmas" as an explicative. Like instead of saying 'crap' or something. He made it pretty fun actually. Ha.. My wife calls me arrogant like that all the time for questioning her! It's not even a religious thing. She just hates being questioned or criticized. So thank you I really needed to hear this idea that people have turned these words upside down. It's not specific to religion though but to people who feel threatened by being questioned.
I have been a volunteer at a foodbank (which is sponsored literally by a dozen churches) in my community for over 10 years, I guess I'm not very charitable...lol and yes I'm an atheist...
I know I know, this has nothing to do with the podcast, but after re-listening to some podcasts I became interested how our fair cystic fibrosis patient was doing. Turns out her boyfriend asked her to marry him and she got bumped up to get the lungs she needed. www.today.com/health/young-woman-cystic-fibrosis-gets-ring-new-lungs-2D80205680 I believe this was money well spend
Looked up the book to see another by him about stopping religion itself. Added both to my christmas list, thanks! (I still need to decide who I'll give those choices to, since my mohter in law was pretty shocked at the other anti-religious book I got last year :D )
I have to disagree with both Seth and the guest for the morinic comment of "liberally religious". It is simply a cop out way of trying to preserve ur religion while cherry picking. And most muslims DO agree with many of people who take their religion seriously. Most won't blow themselves up, but still have that mentality that breeds the damage of religion. "Liberalism" is bullshit. no different. Only people trying to satisfy their cognitive dissonance while picking and choosing while.still calling it a "perfect infallible god inspired book". the ideology is the same and they enable the people who do actually take it to action. Same mentality. instead of plucking some leaves which will grow.back and more sprout, go for the roots. Sam Harris's position is.one that is accurate. We need to hold people responsible and not simply make excuses. It's like saying "well this guy is a homophobic bigot, but he isn't killing gays, therefore he is amazing and so much better. No. He ebables those who do and is unreasonable. ONLY difference is which parts to cherry pick. Says something about the religion. So vehemently disagree with both of u on that aspect. U should get Sam Harris on.
America is free country so if ppl wanna cherry pick I'm cool with that. As long as they don't start doing violent and stupid things and claiming religion says they have to. Thats where you draw the line, and alot of so-called cherrypickers do condemn extremist actions.
Jeremy Bowser "America is a free country"....uhh.. irrelevant. And did u read what I posted?. I explained that these "liberals" are providing support for people who actually take their religion seriously, they believe the SAME things they do, and make it hard to criticize faith and irrationality, which is the cause of it. they are no better and only hypocrites who want to brush off all responsibility of their ideology. had this been about gays, u or race, u wouldn't be saying "well its okay if people are racist homophobic people, as long as they don't hang them". And u fail to understand the link of belief and action to how it is influential. U didn't read what I wrote. Look up Sam harris. And no actually, most religious people DO accept all that the fundamentalists do as well, they just don't act with it.
Mario Pendic No i read what u wrote and I was very clear. I'm aware that they believe the same things but so what? There is a difference between believeing something and acting on it, and the liberals generally keep to themselves while condeming the more radical actions of fundamentalists. Thats what he meant by liberals being on the same side as atheists. They generally agree that the more radical actions like suicide bombings and arson, and teaching creationism are out of bounds. what they say they believe is beside the point, what they actually do is what matters to society.
The kind of people who refer to their holy book as "perfect infallible god inspired book" are NOT the kind of people being referred to as Religiously Liberal. You're conflating the two without any good purpose.
Gerroditus uhh actually they are. For the most part. By definition they are. They believe it is the inherent inspired word of god. If they don't. Then the religion is by definition false. But they want to make excuses and bend over backwards anytime it doesn't fit reality.
what dr. Cragun is saying about muslims being moderate conflicts with what Faisal Al saeed says about muslims. Faisal who was born in iraq, pretty much says that being a moderate muslim is a pretty radical thing in the middle east. most of the moderate muslims, i think we find in the western world. however, there seems to be a problem where much of the younger generations actually are being radicalized in their faith, especially young western muslims coming from a poor upbringing.
Whenever Mormons come to my house I maneuver them into telling me their first name as a way of breaking through their ossified mind-set. Communication seems to be more of a two way give and take when they don't have that barrier of "Elder" between the actual person they are and myself.
I like Lakota, Sioux "Wakan Tanka" (Sacred Spirit-Great Mystery) I guess I'm agnostic because I think "It" is a Great Mystery. There are many things we don't know yet and hopefully "Science" will keep uncovering the Great Mysteries of the Universe we live in.
When questioning my sister about god beliefs, she said "Leave me alone, believing in Jesus makes me happy! " I pointed out the fact that she is desperately unhappy and depressed most all the time and cannot stop drinking or smoking cigarettes despite the endless problems they cause her. I said "you have a bizarre take on what happiness is." Oh well she is 60 years old and probably will never change.
I ate humble pie the other day when I questioned my cousin why she went to so much trouble buying so much at Christmas. Her grown girls are all having trouble in their marriages and are financially strained. My cousins answer to me, with tears in her eyes “my girls might not have Christmas if I don’t buy for them.” So make sure you have perspective before you judge!
+TheThinkingAtheist I think that Islam is just as silly as Christianity, but I've seen far more Islamic organizations denounce Islamic terrorists than Christian organizations denouncing Christian terrorism. It seems like the term "Christian Terrorism" doesn't even really exist in the media or the public marketplace of ideas.
The term Christian terrorist is considered offensive by many Christians,yet think they're simply being honest when they use the term Islamic terrorists. An illuminating multi-national, Muslim majority survey asked Muslims after 9/11 whether they approved of or condemned the event,and indeed,7% approved. 93% condemned it.
There is a strong conservative streak, in many humans, regardless of ethnicity. A tribal indenity, that goes back in time when it was beneficial for survival. Religion was part of this
It doesn't seem to be a particular statement that makes someone do a 180 turn away from religion. For me, once there began to be a few things that caused me to question, I questioned myself all the more. Till unanswered questions gnawed and I realized the depths my fellow comrades would go/ or not go to for answers. It is gradual, and unfortunately, religion doesn't understand this, otherwise they wouldn't waste their time thinking up ways to intellectualize their faith. Secretly hoping that a "one liner" will do it all to change ppl.
![[4K] Watch SpaceX Catch A Starship Rocket From Space!!! #IFT5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pIKI7y3DTXk/mqdefault.jpg)
This show is necessary and does a great job of promoting critical thinking.
I think I've reached the point where I've gotten over the damage religion did to me, and I want to do other things besides circling around and around the religious issue. There's a time for that with everyone leaving religion, and some have more work to do to rid them selves of it's former influences than others, but, there should come a time where that's OVER. It's not that you don't retain a sensitivity, and even an occasional outrage over religions harmful effects (past, present, or future), but the anger doesn't burn quite as hot as it once did. That's my take on this from some 8-10 years out of the religious fold. I don't read atheist books nearly as much as I once did. Now I just enjoy my life! That's a very effective way of continuing to nullify religion! Live. Be happy. Love and help yourself, and others.
I'm having too much fun exposing the hilarious claims that religion preaches to quit now.
Yes
When someone asks me why I go through life so stress-free I tell them, "I'm not religious." When they ask what do I mean, that's open season!!
As you watch atheist videos....
My outrage of what I was forced to do is gone but my outrage over what religion does to society and the goals of the most devout members are very scary. They just won a 50 year battle over Roe v Wade during a time when religiousness is on the decline. I see it like an abusive relationship when the person realizes the other is leaving and that's when they freak out and attack. We are at that point right now in my opinion but even at "normal" times religion hurts everyone it touches. The indoctrinated are not living their best life and those of us on the outside are affected by the wacky laws and rules that they don't even follow themselves but want to impose on society. For this reason we need to stay vigilante to this cult of death. At the end of the day they are hoping the world ends and their savior comes while the world burns and I say this is an evil that must be confronted and stopped.
Tyson said it best: A pagan holiday becomes a religious holiday that becomes a shopping holiday.
@Toughen Up, Fluffy a valid question
@Toughen Up, Fluffy 😄
Ya of course, Jesus is the patron saint of 4th quarter earnings
Umm .. pagan are religious
@@FearlessNimue ... Yes, as in Pagan Religions : These days - anything that ISN'T one of the Abrahamic Faiths ... but generally speaking, things like Wiccans, Druids, Shamans, Sacred Ecologists, Odinists and Heathens
I've come up to Michigan for three months to visit my grandparents. At every supper, they say amen. I respect them, and their traditions, so I hold hands. But as they bow their heads and close their eyes, I hold my head high.However, yesterday, my grandfather asked me to say grace at the table, and I polity declined. At first he laughed it off, but later he told me that I didn't have enough experience to know anything. I quickly shot him down, telling him that I have been respecting his traditions and beliefs, and asking him to do the same.
Good for you! It's especially hard to stand up to family, most especially grandparents.
Your grandfather does not know if there is/is not an invisible unknowable man living in the clouds.
I’ve been in this same situation
Asked to say grace before a meal , so I did
I thanked the farmers that grew the food, I thanked the migrant workers that picked the food having left their homeland , I gave thanks for the dedicated truck drivers that delivers the food all over the country , and the shop keepers who work so hard to keep fresh food on the shelves, and I thanked my grandparents for working so hard to earn money to buy it,
And finally
I gave thanks for the sun , since without its light nothing would grow .
No one really picked up on what I said , or what I didn’t say ,
Which I’m guessing is because they weren’t really listening.
However
My grandfather did pull me to one side later that day and asked me why I didn’t thank god ,
So I told him , I was an atheist
His reply shocked me to my core , he said
“ so am I, don’t tell your grandmother, and I don’t want to talk about it again”
My grandfather still went to church every Sunday, prayed nightly … all just to keep my grandmother happy.
But they never talked about it
I always think wouldn’t it have been funny if they were both atheists, but just pretending to be Christians to keep each other happy.
Sadly both have passed away now
So il never know.
@@mickqQ Both atheists? That was my first thought.
@@mickqQ "I always think wouldn’t it have been funny if they were both atheists, but just pretending to be Christians to keep each other happy."
Utterly tragic, not funny.
Regarding that woman who refused to even view your video, small-minded people are often deeply frightened by the mere thought that there is ANY viewpoint differing from their own.
Fear of hellfire and damnation is paralyzing to the religious. They can't change.
I've watched people lose their faith, become atheists, then go back to be with their religious friends.They miss the social contact the church offers.
@@JamesRichardWiley I don't miss it. It all felt fake to me.
It was fake
The new 10 Atheist (Non) Commandments. So much better than what some supreme being put together. In other words, we are, our own god.
1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
4. Every person has the right to control of their body.
5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.
7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.
9. There is no one right way to live.
10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.
Kai Green These were part of submissions that were chosen as the top picks in light of the growing "exodus" away from organized religion. I think they were trying to prove a point. But anyhow, to quote Carlin, there should be an 11th ... "Thy shall keep the religion to thyself".
I really like these 'new 10 Atheist (Non) Commandments'. makes sense.
I follow the Seven Fundamental Tenets of The Satanic Temple.
*One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
*The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
*One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
*The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
*Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
*People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
*Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
I greatly appreciate that he respects everyone's right to hold their own *personal* beliefs. I am Catholic and I understand how non-religious people might think its ridiculous, but my religious belief is for my own peace of mind. And I would never force my religion onto anyone because I do respect everyone's right to their own beliefs, not even my own children if they choose to stray away from religion. Though I definitely think that there are many lessons that can be learned from the stories in religion. I am also very willing to alter my opinion according to new information I am given and I would never be so ignorant as to immediately rebuke something just because it may contradict my beliefs(like how that lady refused to view the video). However, I probably won't ever stop believing in my religion because I feel like I need it in my life. But I would never deliberately affect others negatively.
I am not very articulate but I wanted to put my opinion out there...I hope my point came across...though I am not sure if I even made sense. Just to clarify, I this opinion of mine with all due respect.
*YOU ARE* coming thru *loud & clear!*
..."I would never force my religion onto anyone *because I do respect* everyone's *right* to their *own beliefs..."*
Thank you, my (our) country (the USA) has a *secular* constitution and is a *secular* democratic republic FORM of *government.*
The Jeffersonian genius and wisdom of the American experiment in religious freedom is that we are not:
a Christian nation or
a Jewish nation or
a Muslim nation; or:
*ANY nation* that is founded on *a single religion.*
*Any attempt to claim or create a Christian theocracy is a grave danger to our democracy.*
*So, SEE Kay ... you fit right in!*
That they spend so little, if anything, on actual charity is why I think religious organizations should not have tax exempt status unless they meet a certain threshold of money taken in to money out for non-church focused charity. If people want to have their clubs, that's fine, but the government (and thus the people) should get a cut of that pie if the church isn't going to give it charitably.
Tara preach!
Church's templescet al are using State land,pay reduced utilities depend on getting away with their religious nonsense
As much as I don't like religion I don't like this talk of clubs paying a cut to the government. Also, religion might be bad for people but the militaryindustrial complex that gets most of our tax dollars isn't exactly about helping people either
@@vincemcmahonreadskoran3120 As the quote goes; Don't Let the Perfect be the enemy of good.
I really, really, thoroughly enjoyed this podcast discussion. The speaker is very accurate, logical and open in his thinking. Very intelligent, I'm interested in checking out his book. And great questions Seth!
I have many friends who are Christian and I myself am an Atheist, I have to keep my mouth shut when they are on line spouting all of their Jesus stuff, because I am jumped on by a couple of them as soon as I start to ask them questions about their knowledge of the bible. I have found that the majority of them have NEVER read the entire book thru. I have and I did, when I myself was a christian, because I had the need to know if what I was basing my life on was true in any way, except for basing it on "Faith". After reading it and then asking questions about it, I never got a straight answer from a single one of the christian's I was around at the time, they had a lot of circular arguments, and a lot of arguments from ignorance, and invoked Pascal's wager a lot, but never gave me any concrete answer's for what I was asking about the reality of the religion, and why they do certain things. I dumped it, because I have to use my brain, and the way I looked at it is that, if there were a god ( which there is no proof of period) and it was going to throw me into a pit of fire for eternity for using the brain it ( supposedly) gave me and coming to the conclusion that this god does not exist. If this god (for one) is omnipotent, then it knew before it created me that I would not believe in it, so if it had a need for all of it's creation to believe in it, then it should have implanted it into our brains in a way that could not be denied. I am not positive that there is not a god, and if somehow one day there comes to light a way of finding out for sure that it is real, than I would consider allowing myself to look further into it to satisfy myself thru logical reasoning. Until then, God ( and I am going to say this sarcastically) is only a "Theory". Actually religious people have a problem understanding what a scientific theory is.
Randy Tyson Jesus lives in Mexico
I have Christian neighbors. It is so exhausting. They do not respect my Atheism. It is sad.
GOD 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Randy , Christians are taught/develop a whole battery of self-defense mechanisms. A lot of it is bluster. Sorry you are on the front line but they will tire of trotting out the same old stuff eventually
@butch oblick I disagree, hypothesis is a scientific term and giving any creation MYTH any scientific credibility, intended or not. is wrong. At best it gives them more credit then they deserve and at worst, it opens the door for them to teach it in schools and worse, in science class. I can hear them now : " If you agree it's an hypothesis, surely you can't argue against teaching this hypothesis and discussing it in class along with all the other hypotheses and theories ?" " Or can only Hypotheses and Theories, you believe in be thought in schools ?"/
Please. for all our sanity, do not use the term Creation, Hypothesis....lol
Not surprising that non-religious people volunteer more - the religious just have their "one size fits all-solution": Prayer.
***** you forgot the fact that jesus is coming back soon and in they'll be in heaven one day
Yes, ppl sitting around waiting on Jesus to save them, waiting on his return, waiting for prayers to be answered, but not very often getting off their asses to do anything about anything. That's the problem, that's why our country is going to shit.
Prayer has been scientifically tested a number of times.
Guess what the results were.
If there’s something wrong with the fundamentalists of your religion then there’s something wrong with the fundamentals of your religion.
The whole social network change thing has been working well on my girlfriend, I don't usually bring up religion as we both understand where we stand (I don't believe, she kinda does? it's complicated.) however to my knowledge none of her friends or the people we hang out with (my friends mostly) are religious.
She recently asked me about if we would introduce our hypothetical future children to religion, she said she was leaning towards no.
This was coming from someone who would be considered a 100% sinful person due to her very nature and sexual orientation, but still wholeheartedly believed that god loves her dearly.
Many of you will know that this was like an atheist leaning towards teaching his/her kids about religion (as in to become religious, not against it), I consider this proof that this works, feel free to quote me in future research done on the matter ;3
I've got two friends that are ex-Mormons that say their two years was the worst time of their lives and that that was the beginning of their desire to leave the cult. One became a gay porn producer and the other a bio-scientist. They hated and dreaded sharing the "cult faith." Very few are brought into the church through that method any more.
A reason for the non-religious being more intelligent, on average, is that their intelligence enables them to reason their way out of their religion more than a less intelligent person. After all, most of us were raised in some religion, with the information revolution, more are finding their way out of their religion.
My 9th grade religion teacher planted the seed of doubt when it came to Jesus' divinity. He said. - Modern Christians don't believe in the Old Testament as literal history. It's just meant to teach lessons (I live in a blue state.) It was then that I started thinking maybe the New Testament isn't a history lesson either. Thanks Mr. V.
Is curiousity related to intelligence or not? Some people are just incurious. They only want to knowas much as they HAVE to in order to get by. I'm the opposite, I recently started watching videos about farming even though I will never farm anything.
What did it for me was my own morality.
And actually reading the Bible starting from Genesis.
I could accept that god had his warriors kill tribes because they were wicked.
But when he told them to hamstring the horses I just knew I couldn’t love this god. I couldn’t be a christian.
I did however struggle with anxiety for years that I would go to hell.
I have always believed that the greatest enemy of religious thinking is education.
But education is lies from satan :P
Religious thinking sounds like an oxymoron.
that's why they often discourage debates and education.
@@darrenwithers3628 *Uh oh,* cats outta the bag now!
You are not alone! Not only do I agree but, Martin Luther claimed the biggest threat to religion is rationalism. What we now call critical thinking, which if educated well we learn how to do in school.
Most people aren't stupid. They make themselves stupid with fundamental falsehoods that take their overall intelligence down.
*****
Good one. Stealing :)
paranor001 i have to differ with your original post ..... i'm surely not the sharpest crayon in the box buuuuuut ..... and using the imperfect IQ score for a moment .. the average IQ is considered 100 ..... i don't know what your IQ has been tested at, or if it's been tested, but people with that average score don't seem all that bright ....... and half the world scores lower than average......
so depending on your reference point ...... most people are stupid on a good day no matter how likeable they might be ..... no matter how well they might do financially (even a blind squirrel will find nuts) ...
and in spite of "God given " intelligence...... most people are indeed stupid
mike e Even "the stupid" when taught basic thinking skills, can process things better than those not taught. When there are fundamental flaws in a person's thinking, it brings their processing of reality, making them less cognitive of their surroundings and it's happenings, making them more stupid.
Correct those flaws, and the cognitive processing on reality increases, making them less stupid.
IQ tests are designed for specifics, and become less accurate the more generalized it is. Then there's EQ. Plus with how we vary in how we learn, as people, perhaps with proper education for that person will discover a genius.
mike e
In my opinion, stupidity is not about a low IQ or being ignorant. It's about the illusion of knowledge and the absence of rationality. Being wrong is not a bad thing - unless you put your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept it.
Gryffix ....... yes the Dunning Kruger effect ...... but that is a function of stupid ........ intelligence is not that a person has learned but that they have the capability ........ dumb lack the ability to learn with the same level of ease
as paranor001 stated above "stupid" people can be taught to learn .......
problem is they often aren't bright enough to realize they need help learning to learn
and of course i feel that religion plants an easy to grasp seed that takes root and chokes out any glimmer of critical thinking
and yes i know many incredibly bright people who are religious but it seems to me that they compartmentalize much more effectively where the "stupid " person lets the action of "uncritical" thinking overload whatever "rationality circuitry " their brain might contain......
and that is exactly what politicians and religious pundits are banking on
I am always amazed when I ask someone if they believe evolution is true and they answer no. "I believe the Bible is true." I actually get a little bummed out, I feel like they have never thought about it and are answering with a preexisting response.
Work at the Post Office one year in December and you'll definitely hate Christmas.
CelestialWoodway 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
haha kmart for me
Work at procecing meat plant and work 12 hours for 2 weeks in a row and 15 in the eve and lets talk about. Same thing before new years eve.
I haven't worked at the post office but hate it anyway. Hilarious point you make.
I’m from the UK and as about 80% of Brits are non religious we don’t have to worry about being atheist so much. Religion (or lack of) is not a subject that has ever been raised with me during my lifetime (I’m 60).
I did go to Sunday school when I was young but first doubted the truth if religious teachings when I was about 8 years old. I have had my IQ tested twice and I score in the top 2% so I was capable of critical thinking at that young age.
Good show. Dr Cragun does such a good job of unpacking what the data really shows, without undue bias. Religious people have a great incentive to "spin" the data toward their side, when often they take liberties to make religious association seem more positive than it is. I gotta get the book.
So let me get this straight: religious fundamentalists are more likely to be “addicted” to porn? That is HILARIOUS!
Everyone who was brainwashed against sex is fixated on it and can't stop.
A holesome bunch. 😁
Chicks from Uber religious families are always FREAKS in the bedroom. There is almost nothing they won't do.
I've often read the highest use is in the Bible belt. Also I've heard Christians themselves complain about it.
@@eddieclark9802 That was a cheap nasty shot. I like it.
I don't really care one way or another about the whole Christmas thing, I don't like it being shoved down my throat by my very spiritual mother-in-law and generally react more harshly in those cases. But I enjoy spending time with my family and oh god I do love 3 weeks off work to do whatever I want; I love meat, roast potatoes, sprouts and many of the other things that are associated with the winter solstice holidays.
Brit?👍
Wow. I suddenly feel so much better about all the constant depression, hehehe.
I know the feeling lol
People are hurt by religion. Finally I can identify with someone who says it.
Thank You Mr. Seth for this podcast !
I am excited to purchase Dr. Ryan's book :)
Love From Iowa :)
Ordering it now. Fascinating to hear about his research!
Thanks for this video. Dr. Cragun hits the spot by including math (statistics) in order to try to check and test different claims, hypothesis, etc.
Those who have been hurt by religion want to save others from religion
I was accused of the following during a comment discussion on a different video:
"You seem to think, despite your lack of recitation of anything but scientific dogmatic orthodoxy, that you have a stranglehold on truth, or legitimate inquiry."
This one is not going to be positively influenced by being associated with more skeptical people.
To some ignorance is bliss
Re: happiness and religious fundamentalism...the Christian evangelical fundamentalists I had contact with online claimed to be happy. But the more time I spent communicating with them, the more they seemed scared all the time. They believed that if they "backslid" even a little, their being "saved" would be invalid and God would "spit them out of His mouth". So they felt like they had to be constantly self-vigilant and constantly keeping themselves on track. It seemed like a really miserable way to live.
Growing up in a strict Baptist home “getting saved” didn’t interest me much. Nobody that was “saved” seemed to be enjoying life. But I “got saved” anyway as a teenager because I didn’t want to go to hell.
Such horror stories supposedly moral people tell their kids.
Robert Sapolsky has given another point on the metaphysical wiring that religions exploit, sort of quick-learning mode in early stages of child's development, when it's beneficial to accept certain don't-s unconditionally -- mostly the ones that could be deadly when left for the child to figure out on it's own
"...We don't know if people who are clinically depressed are seeing the world in more realistic ways because they're clinically depressed, or they're clinically depressed because they see the world in more realistic ways, we honestly don't know the causal direction here."
... Well fuck, this explains a lot, even if we don't know the causal direction, it fucking explains a fucking LOT with the way I see the world.
Good word 'fuck'... sadly, too many people doing too much fucking resulting in too many people, lol. Religion is against birth control. Ya know, life is 'precious' to religious people, but its okay to kill homosexuals., and anyone who doesn't have pink skin and blue eyes. I think religion is a mental illness. 'Loving somone' (Jesus)who has never been seen. But they 'hear' him., er his 'daddy'. Hmmm maybe they have schizophrenic hallucinations and delusional. Just a thought, lol.
Yep - you’re fucked 😂
I like Sam Harris's line about how the problem is not the Islamic fundamentalists it the fundamentals of Islam. It is applicable to pretty much any other religion to some degree and certainly to the other Abrahamic religions. He was juxtaposing this with fundamentalist Jains who are almost debilitatingly pacifistic.
It seems to me that the fundamentalists aren't acting in the name of other people in their religion they are acting in the name of their religion.
Mohammed the merchant flew up into the heavens on a winged horse.
Jesus the carpenter ascended up into the sky.
There is nothing "up there" but space.
I think the "I'm not going to interfere with my child's discovery of religion" mindset generally comes from a reaction to the childhood indoctrination that's so popular with the religious.
Well , I guess something must be wrong with me ! I don't shun or turn away these young people when they come to my door , instead I invite them in to perhaps have a spirited religious conversation and challenge them to look at their beliefs and why they believe as they do ! After all would they not feel equally as dedicated and committed to Islam or Hinduism or scientology, erc , if they had been born or socialized into that cult ? I want to plant in them a seed of doubt and spark of critical thinking that I would not have had if I had rejected them ! We need to take the time to have these conversations with our fellow human beings to foster greater understanding toward an adoption of a more enlightened worldview !
300 and something churches in one town.... wow...must be like living amongst the pod-people !
Paddy
Special LOL
In heaven the saved get to build more churches for eternal praising of Yahweh and his son, Yeshua.
"Drop the snack machine from your snack routine." Good tag line and jingle.
This was a very informative show and I had thoroughly enjoyed Ryan and of course Seth. This show was, what, 5 yrs. old? Be interesting to see what the true atheist % is compared to religious and non-religious is now in US and other countries esp. Canada. Going to buy one of Cragun’s book for sure soon.
In a side note, watching Seth the last few years has helped me understand people and religion a lot more to making me a bonafide atheist. Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Shermer etc. built my atheist foundation. From there, Seth Andrews mould me into a mature Atheist.
We had a pair of Mormon missionaries in the small town where I lived for a couple of years. One's last name was actually Elder. So he was Elder Elder. I'm not kidding.
There was a similar thing in the film Catch -22 A character had the last name of Major. So they promoted him to major.
Oldie but Goodie. Great Show as always
Interestingly, my path has been the opposite painted here. I gradually moved away from all superstition-based beliefs and took a live-and-let-live attitude. I did not feel harmed by religion. But as I get older, I find myself more militantly against religion because of the harm it does in the world. Family members who think atheists or gays should not hold office or be teachers are harmful people depriving others of their civil rights by removing the boundary between religion and government. More militant religious believers are responsible for beheadings and bombings and physically dangerous actions. To know this is still happening as I enter my older age is dismaying and can make me very angry.
Me too!
That is very worrying to hear about the growth of religiosity in the world. I really hope that it dies down in the future, or maybe as those countries modernize they will have a strong drop in religion because of the access to information.
There's strong evidence that as a country develops the religiosity of its populace goes down. Check out the World Values Survey for lots of data on that.
I think the only country that bucks this trend is the USA, Europe is heading reasonably rapidly to being completely secular. Even here (the UK) which has an established church, we're 51% atheist/ agnostic/ none of the above
Just cuz ppl identify as a particular religion doesn't mean they follow all the rules and/or buy all the bullshit.
Jeremy Bowser Yeah, some people just check the (e.g.) "Christian" box by force of habit. If they thought about it they would check the "None" box instead. I was doing that up to about 15 years ago when I thought - "What am I doing?" and checked "None", which I do regularly now. I know in the UK churches are closing down regularly. In Canada, we are also seeing this trend with small towns with, say, five churches now down to one or two - usually a Catholic church and a Pentecostal or J-Ws the only ones still open. We are up to 25% "none" and climbing.
Rhodri Curnow in the US religion is also closely tied to politics ... at least that's how the political parties deal with it. The US is becoming much more tribal than I've ever seen it in my 56 years and a fundamental identity management tool used by the political parties is religion. The actual value or truth of the religion to the self-described religious person may not be all that's involved in the tribal identity they have included themselves in.
Expect this to get far worse before it gets any better, if it gets any better.
I find it difficult to find anything I disagree with this Dr. Every point he makes I have read and or believed. Absolutely brilliant stuff.
this is my question:
Do you really think you will change somebody by bothering them at their door?
Do you not think about how you are invading someone's private time and space with your own agenda?
Are you doing this because it is required by your church, because you are bored or do you expect to be invited in for in depth conversation?
1. What will it take to dissuade you from this practice?
2. What sign can I make which will make you leave my porch?
Should Christians Preach the Gospel Door to Door (Acts 20:20)?
A quick reading of Acts 20:20 might give the impression that the apostle Paul went from house to house to preach the gospelof the Kingdom to the unconverted. The context, however, beginning with verse 17, reveals the true meaning.
The apostle Paul "sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church," and said to them "I . . . taught you publicly and from house to house" (Acts 20:17-20). Paul taught the leaders of the church in their own homes. He was not going from house to house attempting to witness to or persuade whomever opened the door.
Jesus Christ and His apostles shows we should not to preach from house to house. Neither should we accept into our homes any peddlers of religion who might show up on our doorstep.
I got one better +thethinkingatheist ! I live in Fort Wayne Indiana, and although our fair city is trending at moments in right direction (we actually have an annual pride week,) we currently have about 360 churches located here in what I can only label "The Bible Belt Buckle of Indiana." The reason for this is that we have a majority of rural communities surrounding the city where fundamental religion is the life style, particularly with the Amish and Apostolic faiths. It's brutal having conversations with "folks up round these parts." (Said in my best Midwest accent.)
It would be great to hear Dr Cragun's opinion about how much property the LDS church actually owns, and give us an idea of how many businesses it runs worldwide, which is/are being owned or conducted without taxation or restrictions.
Those he defines as liberally religious, which he says don't scare him, I think he should be scared of them, as should we all be. They are the very ones who by virtue of their existence give implied support and enablement to the fundamentalist-terrorist types. They are a spawning matrix for the killers.
The direction of causality is an interesting inquiry. I'd like to think that the reason why religion ultimately became unpalatable to me was because its tenets didn't make sense.
The truth is that I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I didn't separate myself from my religious community for enough time to allow myself the freedom to doubt. The particular cult I came out of (Jehovah's Witnesses) discourage outside research, so I didn't really tap into any resources until I realized Big Brother wasn't there.
That being said, I wonder if I would have caught a milder religious infection if I weren't introduced to Watchtowerdom, since only on leaving that cult did I bother to research my 'illness'.
Religion is a form of mental illness that operates in opposition to normal brain activity. The cure is inquiry into its origin.
***** You should get Sam Harris on the show. I don't know if that is a possibility but if there is a chance, I think it would make for a great show.
I've found my next audiobook on Audible... my First was Deconverted by Seth Andrews, heard about audible and his book listening to TTA :)
So far as I can remember there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.
Bertrand Russell
The religious states are also the poorest states, and that stress might lead to seeking relief in medication.
Interestingly, on polls about happiness, health, wealth, obesity, etc. the south is doing horribly in all of them. They are the poorest, have the worst job employment rates and bad jobs, the least healthy, the fattest (granted there was not a single spot of 'average' on the map so the US is rather fucked there), and the worst education.
And the map of all those things seems to align perfectly with the map of the most fundamentally religious locations. Coincidences like that don't happen for nothing, but it'd be interesting to have it studied in depth. Are they more religious because their lives are so bad and that sense of community has become the only 'happiness' in an otherwise dreary and awful place, or is the area so absolutely awful because they are so highly religious? (I'd guess it's a combination of the two leading to a vicious cycle that makes it all worse.)
I was in class on this podcast. The book purchase is a good idea.
You can't talk people out of their beliefs, you can only help them talk themselves out of wrong ideas. Street epistemology seems to be the way forward.
Looking from the outside at the US religious scene it appears to me that it offers the kind of social and practical support wr in Europe get from the state. I'm constantly amazed at the strong anti-government, anti tax stance espoused by most if not all religious devotees yet they're happy to tithe to their church and accept all kinds or social control and restrictions from their religion. Just mad.
I also take issue with the concept of not talking to your kids about religion because you don't want to influence them. This giving religion a privilege it doesn't deserve. Do we think this way in regards to other knowledge?
You misunderstand the point of teaching critical thinking skills and informing children of one's own opinion instead of forcing it down their throats. If a parent says, "Don't believe in deities," it's merely another form of indoctrination, and it stands in contrast to what true skeptics are supposed to be about: examining evidence without merely taking the word of another.
Sure, there's an element of parental trust at play, and children can and should be guided, but teaching a child what to think instead of how to think is not something to be lauded.
*****
What about infant genitalia mutilation? Circumcision? They call out the swamp boats in Arizona whenever a child goes missing. Or they tell us that child molesters are the worst people imaginable yet FUCKING YET it's OK to strap down kids and cut their genitals for a bronze aged blood cult war god. Someone explain that one to me especially considering now that circumcision is not a recommended medical procedure. The real reason they cut babies is because they have a fucked up view about sex and they think by removing the 'naughty' anatomical parts that makes sex pleasurable they're doing the will of god. I'LL REPEAT THAT! THE REAL REASON CIRCUMCISION IS DONE IS BECAUSE IT STEMS FROM A LONG HELD TRADITION THAT SEEKS TO REMOVE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE THE CHILD'S ANATOMICAL PARTS THAT MAKE SEX FEEL GOOD. Do a show on that Seth. Or are you too scared to?
***** 1) Decaf. 2) Nothing I've said about the indoctrination of minds has anything to do with genital mutilation, so either you're missing the point entirely, or you're just eager to co-opt another discussion to fit your own soapbox.
Also, baiting the host by saying "are you too scared to" is the equivalent of a religious person posting a Jesus meme on Facebook and saying, "If you care, you'll share." Unimpressive and ineffective. Move on, folks. Nothing to see here.
Circumcision is a sex crime against humanity. It's immoral and unnecessary. The real reason circumcision is done is to remove from the anatomy those anatomical parts that make sex feel good. You see, many religions and therefore religious people are fucking retarded therefore their beliefs are also fucking retarded so they think that by removing the prepuce or the labia or the clitoris that this will somehow make people less likely to procreate and/or masturbate. If this doesn't send up red flags THEN WHAT WOULD? Circumcision is now known to cause all sorts of peculiar mental and physical side effects in men. The deed affects everyone differently but deep down I'm convinced that the deed is responsible for many of the psychopaths and sociopaths in the world today. Just lay a map of nations that mutilate over a map of nations that are at war and it's a damn near match. My dick my pick. My body my choice. Sex is beautiful and awesome and in my opinion alone any group or cult that says otherwise should be aggressively revealed. Seth, you've disrespected me for the last time Sir. I've tried to talk to you with respect because I used to respect you but now I don't. I'm now removing myself from your channel. Good luck and have a good life and when you die and find yourself in a man-made virtual reality style hell simulator. Don't say I didn't warn you Sir. Good Day.
*****
Wow. I feel like this person went off the deep end. Somehow not having foreskin causes psychopaths and sociopaths?
I'd like to see data on that.......
I have foreskin if you were curious. I am pretty ambivalent about it.
I disagree with the author on liberal xtians. They are big in number and through their tacit support, shelter the hardliners, they provide the power of numbers and dollars and votes that perpetuate the human suffering those few in religious power deliver through them. Without that base, those hardliners would be handful of isolated cranks that no one would take the least notice of.
I will need to read the book, but my first thought about arming atheists with talking points when talking with Christians, or other religious people, is that data does not sway people to change.
Seth made a video on Restoring Perspective and Humanity in the Era of Outrage. In it he brought up two examples the change was prompted by strong emotional response. One was the father who decided to leave the white supremacist group because he wanted a different life for his son. The other was the Muslim woman who went into the homes of white supremacists and asked "Don't you think I'm a human being," and other similar questions and was able to change the life of one man who left his white supremacist group and let go of his, now former, beliefs. In both cases the change was triggered by a strong emotional response. It's been shown that people can change their habits and attitudes more easily if there is an emotional element to why they want to change. It works no matter how big or small the change, and the emotional response doesn't need to be really strong, unless one is significantly changing lifelong beliefs and behaviors.
So, I need to read the book to see what Ryan recommends in his book to see how he phrases the questions.
Dang, Seth, your show is really great.
So awesome hearing that he's from my hometown.
23:23 A lot of Atheists are Scientists, so that also tips the scale.
A lot of scientists are also religious.
@@JamesRichardWiley
Shrinking.
"I know you are, but what am I" comes to mind when he talks about how religious people talk about the non-religious being arrogant.
After hearing this, I am brought to a quote in the movie "Waking Life".
"What is the major characteristic of humans?
Fear or Laziness?"
As a lifelong atheist, I have become more and more militant. And lately I'm building higher pressures a lot faster, my pot use has gone up to maintain the balance. But, I recognize the fundamentalists for what they really are, a violent, hate filled, unhinged serious threat to everyone in every city, in all 50 states. I can't help but feel that I need to rise up and meet that level of push back.
I know, they are in Sweden too. They hated me for 18 years. Now I have moved from there to a new place, town! At least I do not have to see the hate anymore!
"pagan" celebrations makes more sense. Probably because daylight increases in the northern hemisphere, every civilisation celebrates something during this time of the year either religiously (various feasts) or socially (new year).
" A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS O P E N E D ! [ not my quote ] but profound !
I suggest that it's more important Not to be a theist rather than To be an atheist. Let me explain. I call myself an agnostic. I'm not really interested in gods. But I do believe in what people may call "supernatural". 2000 years ago people did not know any freakin thing about the air. So they believed your soul may temporarily exit your body when you sneeze, that's why they started saying "bless you". The Air was all around them always, but they had neither an idea nor the tools to detect it! Crazy, huh? Same with what I call Supernatural. I think it's all around, and the science will be discovering a lot of interesting things.
Still, as a non-theist, I would never force my beliefs onto anyone, let alone demanding to teach them in school! I'm harmless. My belief in the after-biological-life helps me deal with depression. Because I celebrated my 35th birthday having 5th (fifth, yes) episode of atypical depression. I love animals. I want to save everyone. I know it's impossible. So, I do what I can, as for the rest -- I leave it to the Universe, so to speak. This makes my life a bit better.
As for the "all children are born atheists", science says that [some] mammals have this inclination to believe in supernatural. I think all children are pagans =D What you cannot understand -- you think it's a miracle.
When he said fundamentalists are more prejudiced against "outgroups" it really backed up what I've sensed for a long time. The conservative church I used to belong to had started to appear to be as much of an exclusive culture as it was an embodiment of faith. Group think reigned and their social focus was very narrow. This is when I knew I had to get out.
Interesting discussion about violence and religion. It seems like Christians forget or dismiss that we had 100 years of crusades because of their religious belief versus the other religions that were in the Middle East. Now we know that the crusades actually were for political gains and economic gains by the then only Christian organization which was the Catholic church but they still see signs of that violence occurring in Christianity today even with the protestant sex of Christianity. Timothy McVeigh when he bombed the building, declared himself a Christian. In any of these militia groups that want to raise arms against other people also seem to declare themselves devout Christians.
Dr.Cargon is so right! How's that for arrogance! Love this guy!
Fascinating discussion. However, 31:00 to 31:50 I am very skeptical of the study Dr. Cragun cites. Depressed people see the world in more realistic ways? I wish I could read that study. Every single human being I have ever encountered in the throes of mild to intense depression--including myself within a clinical depressive state--is lost in as much of a fantasy world as the deluded happy people. Depressed people believe negative thoughts about reality--they are not seeing reality as it is. As soon as they look at the reality in front of them without those thoughts, the depression vanishes. The authors (of the study Dr. Cragun cites) might also claim that people who are in a state of perpetual joy and peace are not facing reality, or are ignoring all the horrible things that happen in this world. In my experience, facing reality without believing all the thoughts about it obliterates both depression and anxiety.
People believe things that bring them comfort, often they do this so often they build a world view that interferes with reason and rationally processing observable reality but even if they realise this the fear of their world falling apart as the result of relinquishing their perspective reinforces their dependency on it. But this is the bad side of beliefs, what we find is that beliefs themselves are no the problem here, the real problem is the emotional condition behind it. Emotions have their place and merits in life but they also stand to drive our behaviour and inclinations. The main obstacle to clarity is heightened impulsive psychological states, fear/desire/anger, these are the main ones, but most irrational behaviour is a result of these either directly or indirectly. Directly in the sense of seeing and reacting, indirectly in the sense of imagining scenarios that provoke these reactions.
What beliefs can do is help us discipline these impulses and keep our knowledge in perspective of relevance, but as I said; beliefs can also create a stubborn frame of mind that could reject moral and practical solutions because they don't fit with how our beliefs have us see things, and that in itself is the result of a failure to discipline those impulses as they manifest in fear/desire/anger to reinforce the position.
Interesting, what Dr. Cragun says about liberally religious being allies in the fight against fundamentalism is the exact opposite of what Sam Harris says...personally, I agree with Sam Harris on that one
What's interesting is that he say himself "the best way to change someone's mind is by changing their social network, not by giving them good arguments". meaning that the best way to destroy fundamentalism is by de-converting the moderates around them. as he say, once someone agree that the scriptures are not entirely flawless, it's a slippery slope that can easily lead to de-conversion. so instead of attacking the fundamentalists stronghold of blind faith and unreasoning, reason with the moderates, they're the ones who allow the extremists to exist by justifying that faith is positive.
Mandalore863 And not just liberals of a specific religion, but liberals in general. There was a hostage situation in Australia the other day by a Muslim guy, resulting in multiple deaths & the liberals were out in force screaming "racist" at any one who pointed out that his religion was the driving force in this case, as it was when this same guy had his ex-wife murdered.
Because in the minds of liberals minority = innocent victim.
The problem of liberal theists is interesting. In rejecting literalism, they often also reject divine revelation. Yet their entire worldview rests on the notion that someone else's divine revelation was, in essence, mostly correct, whether you're talking about liberal Christians or even some deists. It suggests the obvious question: "if this religious tradition is flawed, and its holy books contain man-created falsehoods, what tools could you possibly have to decide what in that book is real and what in that book is nonsense?"
Fundamentalism thrives in a society where liberal theists give them cover. Frankly, if you believe an omniscient deity either wrote or inspired a holy book, reading that book cover to cover multiple times until you understand it should probably be the most important thing you could possibly do. If you're not doing that, it suggests that you're clinging onto a tradition rather than actively believing in it. These liberal theists are in effect living as functional atheists, but the cover they give to the supposed "good" of religion is exactly what the fundamentalist sects need in order to distort the political process, oppress the weak, and have a say in the workings of the nation far in excess of their actual power.
We often have the bigger fights with people who agree with us on a lot of things but diverge on the details; it's often easier to have a spirited conversation with someone whose mind you know you couldn't possibly change.
***** all liberals are ... sounds like the regular bigots who say all are , the same as you say so many liberals always say all minority are not whatever. You are exactly the kind of person you are whining about.
〉Barm
let me explain you what we mean by "liberals support the extremists".
The extremist is someone who say "It's ok to believe without evidence, there's a god, he's revealed himself through scriptures, want people to do *something*, and if you don't you're less than me".
As you see there's many stages to get to extremist, each supported by the previous one. "it's ok to believe without evidence" is non-sceptics, by saying this they give some support to "there's a god" : deists, who themselves support "he's revealed himself through scriptures and want you to do *something" : liberal theists, who in turn support "and if you don't you're less than me" : extremists.
Each level can only exist because the previous one is there to absorb part of the criticism and make each increment socially acceptable. If there was only sceptics surrounding extremists, extremists would be constantly laughed at, and since humans are social creatures, that would change their mind more efficiently than any argument. but they have plenty of people of lower categories to shield them from this.
Thus, the liberals are supporting the extremists, whether it's consciously or not, simply by making it socially acceptable to hold crazy beliefs in spite of all evidences to the contrary.
Festivus: It's for the rest of us.
I feel like it’s blasphemy listening to a Christmas podcast during the Halloween season, but I’ll make an exception for you Seth
I think Joseph Goebbels would have loved the Mormon techniques.
Where I live, we often get Jehovah's Witnesses coming round. _(usually only once)._ However, We've never had any Mormons. I would love a good argument with them.
Ex-Mormon here. The brainwashing techniques used by the leaders are truly amazing. They specifically try to demonize searching for actual facts about the church's history. Only the approved story from the church is taught. You have to actually dig on the internet or read books to discover the truth. It worked for 22 years on me, but finally researching the church's history (after a suicide attempt brought on by feelings of being better off dead than damned) made me realize that I was lied to my entire life.
@1:03:00 On anthropomorphizing computers - I was once teaching a girl I worked with how to do a task on the computer. I told her "You know you've been working with the computer too long when you start to talk to it as if it were a person." She said "Oh, I'll never do that." Five seconds after she made that statement, she's screaming at the computer "I SAID YES!" I said "There you see!"
Good on Dr. Cragun for leaving religion. What I don't get is people who STUDY bible for years and remain theists. All I did was read it and I was done.
It would be very interesting to conduct a study of the IQ of people who go from non-theism to theism in adulthood.
Knew a guy back in highschool that actually used "christmas" as an explicative. Like instead of saying 'crap' or something. He made it pretty fun actually.
Ha.. My wife calls me arrogant like that all the time for questioning her! It's not even a religious thing. She just hates being questioned or criticized. So thank you I really needed to hear this idea that people have turned these words upside down. It's not specific to religion though but to people who feel threatened by being questioned.
Raising education levels and general intellect is, in my opinion, a good basis for a campaign to improve society.
I have been a volunteer at a foodbank (which is sponsored literally by a dozen churches) in my community for over 10 years, I guess I'm not very charitable...lol and yes I'm an atheist...
I know I know, this has nothing to do with the podcast, but after re-listening to some podcasts I became interested how our fair cystic fibrosis patient was doing. Turns out her boyfriend asked her to marry him and she got bumped up to get the lungs she needed.
www.today.com/health/young-woman-cystic-fibrosis-gets-ring-new-lungs-2D80205680
I believe this was money well spend
Ryan is a cool guy.
Excellent show!!!
I learned about zeus and mount olympus as a kid and never believed in that and yet I had to believe in god
Cause that's better apparently
Virtually non of this exists where l live. People go to their jobs and hardly ever talk about religion. UK punter.
"Keep religion to yourself". Stay out of politics and promise me you won't ever vote. Yea, right!
Looked up the book to see another by him about stopping religion itself. Added both to my christmas list, thanks! (I still need to decide who I'll give those choices to, since my mohter in law was pretty shocked at the other anti-religious book I got last year :D )
I have to disagree with both Seth and the guest for the morinic comment of "liberally religious". It is simply a cop out way of trying to preserve ur religion while cherry picking. And most muslims DO agree with many of people who take their religion seriously. Most won't blow themselves up, but still have that mentality that breeds the damage of religion. "Liberalism" is bullshit. no different. Only people trying to satisfy their cognitive dissonance while picking and choosing while.still calling it a "perfect infallible god inspired book". the ideology is the same and they enable the people who do actually take it to action. Same mentality. instead of plucking some leaves which will grow.back and more sprout, go for the roots. Sam Harris's position is.one that is accurate. We need to hold people responsible and not simply make excuses. It's like saying "well this guy is a homophobic bigot, but he isn't killing gays, therefore he is amazing and so much better. No. He ebables those who do and is unreasonable. ONLY difference is which parts to cherry pick. Says something about the religion. So vehemently disagree with both of u on that aspect. U should get Sam Harris on.
America is free country so if ppl wanna cherry pick I'm cool with that. As long as they don't start doing violent and stupid things and claiming religion says they have to. Thats where you draw the line, and alot of so-called cherrypickers do condemn extremist actions.
Jeremy Bowser "America is a free country"....uhh.. irrelevant. And did u read what I posted?. I explained that these "liberals" are providing support for people who actually take their religion seriously, they believe the SAME things they do, and make it hard to criticize faith and irrationality, which is the cause of it. they are no better and only hypocrites who want to brush off all responsibility of their ideology. had this been about gays, u or race, u wouldn't be saying "well its okay if people are racist homophobic people, as long as they don't hang them". And u fail to understand the link of belief and action to how it is influential. U didn't read what I wrote. Look up Sam harris. And no actually, most religious people DO accept all that the fundamentalists do as well, they just don't act with it.
Mario Pendic No i read what u wrote and I was very clear. I'm aware that they believe the same things but so what? There is a difference between believeing something and acting on it, and the liberals generally keep to themselves while condeming the more radical actions of fundamentalists. Thats what he meant by liberals being on the same side as atheists. They generally agree that the more radical actions like suicide bombings and arson, and teaching creationism are out of bounds. what they say they believe is beside the point, what they actually do is what matters to society.
The kind of people who refer to their holy book as "perfect infallible god inspired book" are NOT the kind of people being referred to as Religiously Liberal. You're conflating the two without any good purpose.
Gerroditus uhh actually they are. For the most part. By definition they are. They believe it is the inherent inspired word of god. If they don't. Then the religion is by definition false. But they want to make excuses and bend over backwards anytime it doesn't fit reality.
what dr. Cragun is saying about muslims being moderate conflicts with what Faisal Al saeed says about muslims. Faisal who was born in iraq, pretty much says that being a moderate muslim is a pretty radical thing in the middle east. most of the moderate muslims, i think we find in the western world. however, there seems to be a problem where much of the younger generations actually are being radicalized in their faith, especially young western muslims coming from a poor upbringing.
Whenever Mormons come to my house I maneuver them into telling me their first name as a way of breaking through their ossified mind-set. Communication seems to be more of a two way give and take when they don't have that barrier of "Elder" between the actual person they are and myself.
I like Lakota, Sioux "Wakan Tanka" (Sacred Spirit-Great Mystery) I guess I'm agnostic because I think "It" is a Great Mystery. There are many things we don't know yet and hopefully "Science" will keep uncovering the Great Mysteries of the Universe we live in.
When questioning my sister about god beliefs, she said "Leave me alone, believing in Jesus makes me happy! " I pointed out the fact that she is desperately unhappy and depressed most all the time and cannot stop drinking or smoking cigarettes despite the endless problems they cause her. I said "you have a bizarre take on what happiness is." Oh well she is 60 years old and probably will never change.
Don't give up hope. I became an Atheist @ 64 yrs old.
I ate humble pie the other day when I questioned my cousin why she went to so much trouble buying so much at Christmas. Her grown girls are all having trouble in their marriages and are financially strained. My cousins answer to me, with tears in her eyes “my girls might not have Christmas if I don’t buy for them.” So make sure you have perspective before you judge!
+TheThinkingAtheist I think that Islam is just as silly as Christianity, but I've seen far more Islamic organizations denounce Islamic terrorists than Christian organizations denouncing Christian terrorism. It seems like the term "Christian Terrorism" doesn't even really exist in the media or the public marketplace of ideas.
The term Christian terrorist is considered offensive by many Christians,yet think they're simply being honest when they use the term Islamic terrorists. An illuminating multi-national, Muslim majority survey asked Muslims after 9/11 whether they approved of or condemned the event,and indeed,7% approved. 93% condemned it.
There are no social networks for us atheist. I am the only atheist I know, right now, I am homeless!
There is a strong conservative streak, in many humans, regardless of ethnicity. A tribal indenity, that goes back in time when it was beneficial for survival. Religion was part of this
Is the companion thing another way of keeping tabs and even reporting on you? That's what Dr. Cragun's description brought to mind.
It doesn't seem to be a particular statement that makes someone do a 180 turn away from religion. For me, once there began to be a few things that caused me to question, I questioned myself all the more. Till unanswered questions gnawed and I realized the depths my fellow comrades would go/ or not go to for answers. It is gradual, and unfortunately, religion doesn't understand this, otherwise they wouldn't waste their time thinking up ways to intellectualize their faith. Secretly hoping that a "one liner" will do it all to change ppl.
51:57 ... yeah because that kind of "they're all the same" thinking isn't absolutist at all when we do it ...right ....