Really weird that your machine alignment is off that far. When I need to check alignment on a swiss (or a regular lathe) I always remove the tool and sweep the actual casting bore in the machine. If there's a difference between your indicated values (casting/tool holder) then you should be able to see where the issue is. Also, if you get an indicator with a long tip you can sweep the bore in Z (rotate indicator to sweep along X and Y) to make sure it's perfectly parallel to your sub spindle. It's a ton of work (usually took me about an hour for 8 bores) but it's really helpful for peace of mind to know that your machine is straight. And if for some reason it isn't, you'll know about it and you can get it fixed now instead of later when you're trying to get a job out the door and can't figure out why your drill hole sizes are off. Did the install tech check the machine for alignment? That said, you're probably aware of all this. I just like talking shop and having passion for machining, which I'm sure you understand.
A couple tips, rags work better than paper towels, and nitrile gloves work even better than that for the oil. Always sweep the bore in the actual machine before you sweep an tooling. The .0007 in Y may be gravity deflection of your indicator. Enjoy your swiss! They're amazing machines.
So cool. Not that I'm in the market, but I'd be interested to hear about the research methodology which led you to this machine. What were your needs, what other machines did you look into, etc?
Tornos is the best in Swiss hands down.... Ask anyone in Swiss andthey all will say tornos.... They are crazy expensive but worth every single penny.... Money makers.... My company started with 2 we now have 12 lol all bought within a year
Just found this video. In a prior life I worked in an aerospace machine shop where we would keep tolerance to +/-.00005 which is just crazy. If you see this and have time one fun thing to do is machine a cylinder and sleeve within .00005, put a couple holes in the sleeve so you can hit it with compressed air. A sleeve spinning at those close tolerances is insane :)
I believe the key to making this machine a success for your operation is to get really good at changing between parts. Your Kanban size is based on your end product demand, not on raw stock bar length, setup time, etc. A lot of shops do not make the effort to embrace SMED and are so happy when they finally get a setup dialed in that they over produce parts. The nice part is that you are the part designer so you can change product design (to a point) to match your production method. Job shops don’t have that option. Good luck.
You guys are running a dream business. Unlike most who are driven ruthlessly by financial and operational concerns, you can engage in all sorts of self-actualized projects.
The right hand parting tool cuts closer to the collet or guide bushing which ever one you are using helps minimize deflection or bending on tiny parts. the left hand can allow you to not have to use so many extended nose collets to pick off with where the right hand forces you to use them more often. Also the left can cause deflection on tiny parts.
Amazing machine (you knew that), but are you worried about 'fry cooker effect' where everything within a meter gets slippery? Do you have to do an additional step of cleaning oil off the parts? Thanks for sharing your experiences with these machines.
@@gusbisbal9803 Not that one since its not one with air bearings. Motors with air bearings have no friction and thus the pretty much only limit in speed is the integrity of the rotor. That is of course built for the RPM so yes if it would be built for 600k rpm it will hold for that, even if the one above is not one. However they also normally have not equally good side load capability as one with ordinary bearing which is crucial in the above usage.
@@dtiydr "only limit in speed is the integrity of the rotor." This is untrue. The difference in energy of the spinning part between 60k and 600k is x100 more. When at 60k its already very very high. This means it is trying to rip itself apart due to angular momentum. The limitation is not on friction, or even run-out ie axial alignment, its whether a perfectly friction less, perfectly aligned body can take the G-forces so to speak of that high a rotation. There are dental drills that can reach 450k but that is the highest I have ever seen. If you know of a consumer product that reach 600k please post about it, I would be interested to see what it is.
my thoughts as well. stuff above 200k, even if it's quite small in diameter, requires dynamic balancing for the whole assembly. collet chucks are useless for that matter.
And the fact that if you keep having hands in oil you will not be working with machines and oil for the rest of your life. It's very toxic and you can develop some nasty shit
@@nikolaiownz "Very toxic" is quite a stretch. Definitely not "very toxic." I'd go with, "slightly toxic after decades of exposure, and mildly irritating to a small percentage of the population." Something very toxic would be pesticide, arsenic, cyanide, etc.
@@xenonram i agree i over sayd it. But it's really stupid not to use gloves if you want to work as a machinist the rest of your life. I know so many who have problems with fingers because of all the cutting oil.
Thanks to your 20 thou knife making endmill on lakeshore I was able to perfectly nail the internal radii on some engraving. Was curious about Speeds and Feeds for 316 stainless with a 5100RPM spindle though.
Hey john, Rly enjoying ur vids. Just a thought: tool preset & touch off is standard since (more) than a decade imho - how do u plan on compensating tool wear? Sister tools? Seems like a compromise, no matter what the origin says 😖 Sure that's a keeper? 😥
How many effing know-it-alls and show-offs are in this comment section. I dare anyone around here to truly get to this level. Its not about your opinions here, its about individual perspective and flair when you've reached john's level. John learns his way. Dear god I wish I was him.
It's all fun and games until you have to interface with a Fanuc control, lol. Fanuc is a "welcome to 1990" control that somehow manages to be the standard on otherwise amazing machine tools.
Oh man, I got so confused for a sec. I would say "10s of millionths", whereas I'd read "10 millionths" as seven decimal places. Is this one of those machinist vs. physicist things?
Could be time to by a stand alone tool pre setter you can get a really good used zoller for the price of a decent car here in the Uk or if you have the cash buy a new one. Save you time and money in the long run and safeguard the integrity of the component and the machine in the future.As far as working inside the machine get and interlock key 🔑 everybody uses them....
I was like - no way that is a millionth, is he nuts? But then i remembered that Americans use the imperial system...So 0.000001 inch = 0.0000254 mm. So that's 100 thousand's of a milimiter which is pretty damn impressive.
The better your machine is set up, the more parts you can crank out before you start cutting out of tolerance and have to change tools and reset. In the swiss machining market, 100 more parts between set up/tool change is the difference between asking for extension on POs and shipping before due.
Being able to measure in the millionths range doesn't mean machining in the millionths range at all. There are too many influences that shift the actual position away from the measured position.
Really weird that your machine alignment is off that far. When I need to check alignment on a swiss (or a regular lathe) I always remove the tool and sweep the actual casting bore in the machine. If there's a difference between your indicated values (casting/tool holder) then you should be able to see where the issue is. Also, if you get an indicator with a long tip you can sweep the bore in Z (rotate indicator to sweep along X and Y) to make sure it's perfectly parallel to your sub spindle. It's a ton of work (usually took me about an hour for 8 bores) but it's really helpful for peace of mind to know that your machine is straight. And if for some reason it isn't, you'll know about it and you can get it fixed now instead of later when you're trying to get a job out the door and can't figure out why your drill hole sizes are off. Did the install tech check the machine for alignment?
That said, you're probably aware of all this. I just like talking shop and having passion for machining, which I'm sure you understand.
broton totally spot on on these checks.
A couple tips, rags work better than paper towels, and nitrile gloves work even better than that for the oil. Always sweep the bore in the actual machine before you sweep an tooling. The .0007 in Y may be gravity deflection of your indicator. Enjoy your swiss! They're amazing machines.
"A handful of parts by tonight." So... like... 4000?
So cool. Not that I'm in the market, but I'd be interested to hear about the research methodology which led you to this machine. What were your needs, what other machines did you look into, etc?
Tornos is the best in Swiss hands down.... Ask anyone in Swiss andthey all will say tornos.... They are crazy expensive but worth every single penny.... Money makers.... My company started with 2 we now have 12 lol all bought within a year
hey john you cant measure cocentricity like that, there is some thing called gravity affecting the indicator.... that"s why you have a Y variation
How?
@@captainmcderpyderp Coaxial Centering Indicator
Just found this video. In a prior life I worked in an aerospace machine shop where we would keep tolerance to +/-.00005 which is just crazy. If you see this and have time one fun thing to do is machine a cylinder and sleeve within .00005, put a couple holes in the sleeve so you can hit it with compressed air. A sleeve spinning at those close tolerances is insane :)
I believe the key to making this machine a success for your operation is to get really good at changing between parts. Your Kanban size is based on your end product demand, not on raw stock bar length, setup time, etc. A lot of shops do not make the effort to embrace SMED and are so happy when they finally get a setup dialed in that they over produce parts. The nice part is that you are the part designer so you can change product design (to a point) to match your production method. Job shops don’t have that option. Good luck.
you can't use that type of indicator to measure concentricity like that for tenths, swinging the indicator head around is causing it to droop
Once warmed up tornos repeat pretty tight... Also we have a cheap tool setter and put the offsets in the program
Your 60000 holder is drivin by air and it hooks up to a controller box we use them on our Swiss star lathes
You guys are running a dream business. Unlike most who are driven ruthlessly by financial and operational concerns, you can engage in all sorts of self-actualized projects.
Can't it do / is it possible to DIY a electric power sensor ( like touch of plates you use on DIY routers) ?
Goo stuff. Love watching the grind. Doing the work is what it’s all about.
I got to watch your most recent video, how you been
The right hand parting tool cuts closer to the collet or guide bushing which ever one you are using helps minimize deflection or bending on tiny parts. the left hand can allow you to not have to use so many extended nose collets to pick off with where the right hand forces you to use them more often. Also the left can cause deflection on tiny parts.
Amazing machine (you knew that), but are you worried about 'fry cooker effect' where everything within a meter gets slippery?
Do you have to do an additional step of cleaning oil off the parts?
Thanks for sharing your experiences with these machines.
Lol
Do they make tool setup probes that you can put in the guide bushing? Seems like that would make life a lot easier…
John can you make video on little bit programming ???
The 60,000 rpm tool, my guess is it's an air tool with tachometer wires, not an electric motor with air bearings...
If air bearings you could have ad another zero.
@@dtiydr To the RPM? or the price. I do not believe that it could run 600.000 rpm. The angular momentum would break the tool.
@@gusbisbal9803 Not that one since its not one with air bearings. Motors with air bearings have no friction and thus the pretty much only limit in speed is the integrity of the rotor. That is of course built for the RPM so yes if it would be built for 600k rpm it will hold for that, even if the one above is not one. However they also normally have not equally good side load capability as one with ordinary bearing which is crucial in the above usage.
@@dtiydr "only limit in speed is the integrity of the rotor." This is untrue. The difference in energy of the spinning part between 60k and 600k is x100 more. When at 60k its already very very high. This means it is trying to rip itself apart due to angular momentum. The limitation is not on friction, or even run-out ie axial alignment, its whether a perfectly friction less, perfectly aligned body can take the G-forces so to speak of that high a rotation. There are dental drills that can reach 450k but that is the highest I have ever seen. If you know of a consumer product that reach 600k please post about it, I would be interested to see what it is.
my thoughts as well. stuff above 200k, even if it's quite small in diameter, requires dynamic balancing for the whole assembly. collet chucks are useless for that matter.
Has anyone said anything about the weight of the indicator effecting it?
Affecting
Love the cover photo for this video
Are there direct measurement scales installed or is this insane resolution only done with a really good ball screw and encoder?
100% guarantee your getting some indicator droop indicating like that
I was going to mention that also. Good catch. Glad I read the comments before commenting.
When I ran swiss all drill and boring positions were center line and use a g50 to off set from centerline
Does Tornos not use T-Fix locations like Tsugami does?
What model/make is this machine
john, get some disposable nitrile gloves, it might seem a bit wasteful, but it really saves time from constantly wiping and washing your hands.
And the fact that if you keep having hands in oil you will not be working with machines and oil for the rest of your life. It's very toxic and you can develop some nasty shit
@@nikolaiownz "Very toxic" is quite a stretch. Definitely not "very toxic." I'd go with, "slightly toxic after decades of exposure, and mildly irritating to a small percentage of the population." Something very toxic would be pesticide, arsenic, cyanide, etc.
That oil is engineered to be safe.... I've worked with it my entire life lmao.... I'm perfectly healthy
@@xenonram i agree i over sayd it. But it's really stupid not to use gloves if you want to work as a machinist the rest of your life. I know so many who have problems with fingers because of all the cutting oil.
The problem for many isnt the oil, its the fines suspended in the oil that get into the pores of your skin that cause the problems.
Oh man...does it not have any probing options, or was it too expensive to include them?
Yes! More of this please!
Thanks to your 20 thou knife making endmill on lakeshore I was able to perfectly nail the internal radii on some engraving. Was curious about Speeds and Feeds for 316 stainless with a 5100RPM spindle though.
Cool stuff John. Brings back memories from when I did this stuff manually. Keep up the great work.
I love the thumbnail! Good job Erin! haha
so the swiss is more accurate than the kern? neet
Any issues with the skin with your hands being in oil all day John?
Absolutely LOVE the machine setup and tuning vids.
I use the scratch off process when measuring my tools.
Hey john,
Rly enjoying ur vids.
Just a thought: tool preset & touch off is standard since (more) than a decade imho - how do u plan on compensating tool wear? Sister tools?
Seems like a compromise, no matter what the origin says 😖
Sure that's a keeper? 😥
Wow that Swiss machine looks a lot cooler up close and personal.
Are you still using Fusion 360 to program that?
I highly doubt it... Lol tornos has their own software
nice mic there, the IP-line by mitutoyo is probs the best money could buy these days.
10 millionths
How many effing know-it-alls and show-offs are in this comment section. I dare anyone around here to truly get to this level. Its not about your opinions here, its about individual perspective and flair when you've reached john's level. John learns his way. Dear god I wish I was him.
Gravity= Indicator drop. Not much at such a small distance (protrusion), but it's there.
It's all fun and games until you have to interface with a Fanuc control, lol.
Fanuc is a "welcome to 1990" control that somehow manages to be the standard on otherwise amazing machine tools.
Video should be machining to 10 millionths, not 1 millionth. 10 millionths = 1 hundred-thousandths
Oh man, I got so confused for a sec. I would say "10s of millionths", whereas I'd read "10 millionths" as seven decimal places. Is this one of those machinist vs. physicist things?
Okuno Zankoku in my experience, I have never heard anyone say 10s of millionths. Tenths of millionths would be accurate though.
Hey! Where are the HAAS machines?!
When did he ever have a HAAS?
Baaa ha ha. Grimsmo isn’t going slummin. That’s me. :)
Made in America baby
He's never had a HAAs
Why would he downgrade?
That machine works in one - one hundred thousandths that is not millionths. I setup , operate and program BS-32's that have that same resolution.
Sometimes it is the innocent question that does it.
2027, the year Grimsmo surpasses Chis Reeve as the premier mid-tech knife maker.
these are hundred-thousandths, not millionths. Quarter micron increments.
his ego won't allow that
You're correct. However, in the trade, we customarily call that 5th decimal place 10 millionths.
@@peteroleary9447 does the client know he's being cheated out of two decimal places?
oh, I see...
it's not One Ten-millionths, it's Ten Millionths. Then you're correct, 10/1 000 000 = 1/100 000
@@mentalitydesignvideo That's it. Only referring to the common shop nomenclature in US and Canada. ex. .00008 would be called eighty millionths.
Harvey bought micro 100?! First Helical, now Micro 100, wonder whos next?
Who else said "you Fack" after he said focus?
Guilty as charged.😂
AvE
I was waiting for it...... then nothing.
Bloody Ave has ruined my conversational comprehension!
Keep zed alive, brother!
Who's Zed?
Could be time to by a stand alone tool pre setter you can get a really good used zoller for the price of a decent car here in the Uk or if you have the cash buy a new one. Save you time and money in the long run and safeguard the integrity of the component and the machine in the future.As far as working inside the machine get and interlock key 🔑 everybody uses them....
I was like - no way that is a millionth, is he nuts? But then i remembered that Americans use the imperial system...So 0.000001 inch = 0.0000254 mm. So that's 100 thousand's of a milimiter which is pretty damn impressive.
you are wrong with one zero after the dot. it is 0.00001 = 0.00025mm
lmao that thumbnail
Better turn that light off , it just grew in size 5,000,000 from the heat.
Something's not right.... That offset shouldn't be off more than a tenth or two
Microns is metric lol
I hate to say this but after a while aren't you wasting time and money chasing perfection...
he is not, because the charge that pursuit of perfection to clients
The better your machine is set up, the more parts you can crank out before you start cutting out of tolerance and have to change tools and reset. In the swiss machining market, 100 more parts between set up/tool change is the difference between asking for extension on POs and shipping before due.
Fanuc. Bljah. Spit.
Being able to measure in the millionths range doesn't mean machining in the millionths range at all. There are too many influences that shift the actual position away from the measured position.