@Tech Priest stfu i know all of that, I've seen the 5 and 6 hours documentaries, ive done my research, im no normie. But you however are a nothing but a pathetic tool for manipulation, its easy to see that simply by your bs superiority complex and blind idolatry of neo nazi made up arianism idoliogy. The nazis were never the good guys neither were anyone else. In rela life there are no good or bad guys. Fucking grow up
@Aquarium Gravel literally said "I've seen the 5 and 6 hours documentaries" before that. you did try picking on an easy insult but you only made yourself look bad. if that wasnt enough, your incapability of understanding my name is not spanish but portuguese only shows how little do you care about actually learning stuff exept when it favours your schizophrenic made up world view that you so dearly defend because you are too afraid to confront your sentiment of belonging and being proud of something greater. you trully are severely delayed, the prove that whites are not superior than anyone else and a shame to everyone. PS: my profile pic was taken when i was 9 yo. 10 years have passed and im still as white as i was and always will be.
Tau actually make the setting much darker imo. The only faction attempting to make things better is hopelessly naive and can be crushed at any moment. The contrast is what makes things dark. If nothing is hopeful, nothing is dark.
What make them poor grimdark, is not the fact that they are the good guys, the problem is that they are the good guys, and are not slowly getting crushed, as you says they the can be crushed at any time but they aren't, even worse than that they are a new race that is expanding, which contradict one of the major theme of 40K which is that every faction on the "good side" is decating, but also kind of contradict the logic that they can be crushed anytime, as if they actually started to be a problem they should get immediatly crus has a reaction, and give that awful feel of plot armor, this is even more reinforced buy how little is their empire compared to the gigantic scale of everyother race, and how hard the author try to make them part of big event where they simply don't fit because of their size (which is a really dumb problem they self created as there was more than enough space in the warhammer for another big alien empire, one of the thing I am the most salty about is why game workshop didn't made the t'au an alliance of every other minor alien race the Imperium is bullying out of existence, and maybe adding a new big one on top of that to cement the concept). Seriously what cheapen the lore of the T'au are things like the Damocles Crusade, where the reader need to simultaneously accept that the imperium cared so much about the T'au they organised a crusade, but also didn't care enough to actually send a crusade size forces. Trying to pass of an army barely the size of the amount forces involved in WW2 asa crusade in 40K is bad, it cheapen the meaning of the word crusade in the lore. Crusade should be a term reserved for major conflict with lasting impact on the galactic scale, and involve countless world, it shouldn't be used for small localized conflict that barely involve a hundred world. The misuse of the term crusade really give a bad vibe of plot armor to the T'au. Call it what it is the Damocles Skirmish. If you wanted to make the T'au part of a crusade you should have made them bigger. 40K has working grimdark good guys. A good example of that is the Lamenters which are well intentioned space marines that go as far as really trying to protect civilian, and see countless loss of human life as a tragedy. And because of that they get grimdark treatment reserved for good guys, they get constantly screwed by the world face many more challenges because of such belief, and ultimately triumph but only through great sacrifice maintaining hope. And they are a Fan favorite because of that. So no the T'au don't make the 40k universe more grimdark, the Lamenters do.
@@benjaminparent4115 It kinda sucks to be a Tau fan indeed... Acceptance for the blue bois in the whole setting is pretty rough when stuffs like empire size and plot armor are often used to undermine what little the Tau currently try their best to prove themselves that they are a meaningful part of the world.
@@benjaminparent4115 I feel you missed the forest for the trees. The Tau being actual good guys and even "succeeding" in a nightmare of a galaxy is perfect for grimdark because we know that that if they ever succeed enough to actually strike a spark, light a candle of hope, then no less than 5 separate factions are going to swarm them and drive them back to the stone age at best. The Tau are such an insignificant speck on a galactic scale that they could double their holdings and still make no dent in the amount of godawful hell the rest of the galaxy. The fact that these guys are genuinely good people who could and want to improve the lives of anyone who'll let them and they are so piss weak and powerless that that is the canon reason they are even allowed to exist by the other factions because they're too much effort to destroy and too insignificant to take seriously. That's grimdark gold.
@@Gibbons3457 No it is not because the fact that some people are inherently good completely sucks, it is bad writing. It even goes against one of the important aspect of 40K. In 40k one of the main antagonist is the incarnation of human desire. People are not fighting stupidly evil demon they are fighting the dark desire of humans (and also eldar) that ook physical form. And even when not fighting chaos, there is always that struggle of not empowering those dark desire, even when humanity fight orks necron or tyrannid they also need to do it in a way that doesn't fuel Chaos. 40K is not just about fighting gigantic monster it is also about inner struggle, not just fighting to survive but figting to become a better person To continue on my Lamenters comparison, people like Lamenters because despite all they went through they didn't fall to Chaos. The same cannot be said about the T'au because they don't fall for Chaos, I am not even sure they fuel Chaos.
The dumbest grimdumb I ever ran into was a Rogue Trader lore snippet which described a rogue trader refueling their ship by having crew carry caskets of radioactive material into the reactor and just dying when they got inside. Are we the audience supposed to believe that a civilization that flies around in city sized space ships has never considered a conveyor belt of some kind? or even just a really really long metal stick?
Some people consider the reason that they do this because they are basically prisoners condemned to death, so that is why the imperium doesn't give a shit, same for the shell reload.
The problem with grimdark is that it doesn't leave much room for contrast. If misery, tragedy, and anguish is the norm, what makes them special? There has to be good to emphasize the suffering. This is why good, noble, and heroic characters making their final stand shine brightest in a grimdark setting. Because while, in the end, these characters know that they'll all die and their efforts may have been in vain, they would still give it their all to defy the evil they're fighting. The constant struggle of light trying remain lit hoping against hope to, one day, cast away the darkness. That's what I think makes grimdark great. I personally believe that without the triumph of the forces of good, grimdark isn't grimdark. Its miseryporn. In the case for Warhammer, I don't think warhammer can exist solely as a grimdark genre anymore. It has become so expansive that confining it into a single genre would be constricting and introduces more grimderp stories than proper grimdark ones. I would argue that any genre can exist within the franchise. What matters more is how consistent it'll be with the universe.
That’s just about my take on it, at least for a setting trying to be somewhat serious but still grimdark. If whoever’s at least somewhat of a “good guy” never achieves anything or their group as a whole gives up, it’s not worth following. If the goals are abandoned even if they’re impossible to achieve, who cares? In a silly setting go nuts, have everyone be the most cartoonishly evil and stupid people they can be. But if you want to tell a serious story, you gotta have some small glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. That’s my take anyways.
“Give a hero no hope, and they’ll accept fate. Give a hero just a little bit of hope, and they won’t be able to accept their fate and will truly despair” Don’t remember where I heard that or if I got it right
I like goofy parody levels of grimdark in 40K. I love juxtaposing how serious events in the setting are for the characters with how goofy the events and characters are to the player/reader. An Ork Gargant is a walking junkyard full of sentient mushroom men and that's hilarious, but for the PDF conscript who has to defend a hive city it's a literal nightmare.
5:30 What I thought really sold them as evil. Was the fact the Dark Eldar can supplement any strong emotion to stop the soul suck. They just *Chose* to be vindictive assholes who murder rape everything. When they could infact become the monsters from monsters inc, entertain people such as the Harlaquins (used to anyway. I am not uptodate on there lore at all.), or be genuine good guys and feed of the emotions of gradatuide, love, and praise. They could do this. They instead chose the path of pain, blood, and sorrow; and the greatest irony is that this path might be amongst the least efficant, and stable.
I guess that its because causing pain is the "easiest" way to get strong emotions out of someone. Making someone really happy is a lot harder than putting them in a prison and slowly flailing them over the period of weeks.
One actually sorta convincing defense on manual cannon loading I've seen is normally the cannons ARE self loading (IDK the validity of this assumption), but when said loading mechanism breaks down the captain/rogue trader/admiral/whoever the fuck is in charge of the ship crunches some numbers and comes to the conclusion that it is cheaper in the short term ("short term" in 40k can be literally lifetimes) to get, house, and feed a few hundred/thousand slaves to load it rather than pay the Mechanicus to fix up for them. As in many, many instances the equipment and money is considered more important than human workers, it just might fight.
That’s better than most defenses I’ve seen for it but to be honest, I still can’t wrap my head around how the numbers can add to that way. It’s also possible I am just a goddamned lunatic obsessing over a minor detail way too much.
@@pancreasnowork9939 I don’t think you are. It’s just a holdover from when aesthetic overruled any and all logic when it came to 40k. Don’t get my wrong it’s a killer aesthetic and feeling that I miss somewhat, but it doesn’t work if you turn on your brain.
I really like the idea and the image, but sadly It is undenaidably stupid. The only way to fix this without destroy the whole idea is: there is self loading mechanism, but It's just flawed (aka An error in the STC) and require costant help of a group of slave/worker. Now maybe istead of hundreds of deads, there are just a couple one streched in days, or maybe captain can assign this job to prisoner or rebelius crewmemeber. The possibility are endless and you can get a good story instead of "Lol thousand of people died each hour".
@@pancreasnowork9939 I'm not exactly defending this myself, mind you. It's just the most feasible explanation that I've ever heard. But even in the case of the primary loading mechanism breaking down, surely many small mechanical chain pullers would be more efficient? Unless the Mechanicus would take issue with THAT replacement for some ungodly reason, as opposed to the chain-pulling slave solution....
@@Draconzis I can see that hypothetical scenario quite believable, especially in the context of the setting. Remember, the mechanicus basically holds a monopoly over all things technology in the imperium so they can realistically charge their "customers" however much they want to have their stuff fixed. Also take into consideration the mechanicus' obsession with canticles and prayers to the machine spirit and you can see how the costs for a simple repair can stack up exponentially. On to your suggestion of chain pulley system. Again, do realize that the imperium, and the mechanicus by extension, frowns upon any form of tech modification/innovation and such a system CAN be considered as an example of such innovation. So is it really worth risking yourself being called a heretek and exiled from the imperium (if you're lucky) just to keep your ship at peak combat efficiency?
I argue that the 3rd and 4th edition Tau were still grimdark, but more subdued. Even in the beginning, if someone didn't agree with Tau expansion, the Water Caste would manipulate them until they agreed. If they didn't agree, the Fire Caste would fight them until they agreed. If that didn't work, the Tau would eradicate them. The Imperium skips steps 1 and 2.
The Imperium skips the whole "agreeing" thing. They kinda just burn/bomb/shoot/stab you for existing. Even their own people arent immune to it, it's great!
I don't even think it was subdued. The idea that you have to be evil or at least morally grey to be grimdark is missing the whole goal of grimdark. The tau were grimdark because they were morally good. The fact that the only morally good faction who genuinely wants to improve people's lives and make things better and has no contact with the warp is so infinitesimally insignificant that that is the only reason they have survived this long. Nothing and no one considers them a threat, or even worthy of their notice. That's pure grimdark gold. We didn't need "mind control" to be introduced to make them grimdark, people just decided that having good guys wasn't on-brand and frankly I feel they missed the point.
the imperium skips 1 and 2 if the people are not baseline humans (or a stable mutation of humans) other than chaos, we know they do 1 and 2 against non-chaos humans.
@@Gibbons3457 they’re not morally good though. “Join us or else” until they comply is not the motivation of a morally good faction. That is there goal btw, if you don’t fall in line after they help you for a bit they’ll fight you until you’re forced to join them and once you do you’re gonna be forced to help a group that you have no say in governing nor can you ever hope to because they’re ran by a single small group, that in any other context we’d call that an oligarchy. If you want to argue that there are obvious benefits to joining them while they’re still an oligarchy go right ahead but enough with this dumb flowery flowery “but this is what grimdark should be it’s better with the tau being good” without actually acknowledging the stuff they get up to that if it were to happen in our modern world you’d throw a hissy fit more than likely
The key to good grimdark is, characters joking, having dreams, sincerely believing in the goodness of people, or that victory is just around the corner, and for the audience to truly understand that they are soo fucking wrong. When every character is a misanthrope and knows it's all pointless the world doesn't feel real; when everyone is 100% oblivious to the nightmare hellscape that is their reality it doesn't feel real, but when people are aware the world is the worst but truly "believe" they can do their part to save it even though we know no victory is permanent, no success is without reprisal, oh oh that's just pure gold.
@@WannaBe_CO I can't see how I am wrong. Every country has committed war crimes, recycling is a lie and most companies commit atrocities everyday but there is nothing you can do to stop them. Nestle uses child slavery to make chocolate, the average piece of clothing is only used 7 times before being thrown away forcing companies to use slavery to keep up with the demand.
@@hollowman9410 I am aware of that there are rather grim situations around the world, and I get how someone can view the world in a dim light when they only look at the worst of humanity, but reality is not always that dark. Remember, reality is not some hollywood movie where apparently everyone is the villian, sure countries around the world committed atrocities, but does that mean everyone of that country is that bad?
My main issue with grimdark and 40k has always been how much people hype it up just for being "GRIMDARK!" and "OH THE GALAXY SUCKS AND THERE'S ONLY WAR!" As you said, that kind of stuff is fine for a parody setting, but for something you want taken seriously, with an actual plot and such, it just doesn't work. If there really is only war and no plot progression, no hope and it really is nothing but a massive orgy of skulls and violence, then I have no reason to be invested in the story. If I know it's going nowhere, why bother following along?
Grimdark is a setting, you tell stories in a grimdark setting. It can work if you keep things moving in a way that is satisfying. You can have stories of triumph against the odds and heroic endeavors resulting in the vanquishing of a mighty evil, whilst also acknowledging that on a galactic scale of both space and time it's nothing. Slaying a demon and saving the entire hive city of 14 billion souls, and knowing the demon won't be able to rise for another century is perfectly plausible in 40K but we both know that's a blip in 40K time, on all counts. I feel what 40K currently lacks is a scene of its own perspective. I want it to feel a little more like it's not just humans grimly surviving in the face of infinite war but the other races grimly eeking out an existence in the shadow of a shell of an empire. Have stories where the empire wins against one of the other factions and it to show just how absurdly futile everyone else's goals are in the face of imperial obstinance. The plot can progress, the progression just cannot ever be towards any sense of resolution. The whole galaxy is one big bucket of crabs, if any faction ever starts doing well for itself everyone else is going to do their best to end that out of the sheer need to survive at least. Each of the factions needs to have some time in the driver's seat, the ones with galactic initiative, have things change, planets die, warp storms come and go. Whilst through it all, the empire persists. Maybe the thing holding it back is the idea that if things advance then things improve, or that if they let things play out then the universe self destructs as everyone races to find the big red button first. As long as nothing changes the universe can persist. (huh, now that's a grimdark philosophy).
I would like if the made a separate alternative universe where things can radically change without having to worry about it affecting the Tabletop game. Sort of like when Marvel comics made the ultimate universe where they can do more radical things like say kill off Spider-man for 100% good and explore to possibilities of it, and of course the “real” Spider-man in the normal marvel universe can still be alive and well without the ulitmates version affecting anything, so the ultimate version can remain it's own thing without having to restore the status quo. It be the best of both worlds, you can do things radically different and not need to worry about destroying your setting and game.
@@brandonlyon730 they could easily make 40k have 2 lore sources, codex’s and such to explain faction rules and light lore to introduce models, weapons, etc, and a separate setting that’s actually designed to be s functional story, both based on the same universe, but not actually connected. That way you could go all the way to the end times in the lore setting, but have the table top setting keep that “nothing changes or progresses” vibe that Keeps the wars from ever stopping. Table top is at its core a game, and those that prefer to play it over the lore aren’t really going to mind having their own, unassailable setting where shit writing can’t ruin their factions viability, and lore fans like myself can have fully fleshed out stories that make sense that don’t handicap themselves in order to perpetuate the table top game. That’s always been my biggest problem with 40k, that the lore being so tightly bound to the game it takes away from the vast potential of the setting, and often results in really lazy writing that takes away from both aspects of the lore
my argument for the tau is and always has been that the most horrific thing in life is the innocent facing the horrors of reality. I think the tau fit this role pretty well. They have hope, ingenuity, progress, and have no idea that the second they pose a major inconvenience for any of the older factions, they are fucked beyond belief. It's that truly gut-wrenching feeling of a kid walking out of his hut on some backwater world to find his entire village has been slaughtered and he and all of his friends will be sold into slavery
Agreed, it’s like they’ve worked for centuries, developing tech and expanding territory, unknowing that the only reason they still exist is because everyone is too lazy to go over them and wipe them out
@@boomboone47 It's not even laziness. It's that they are so insignificant and just isolated enough that no one has the time to even care about them. They have Tyranids to survive, chaos cults to root out, orc waaarghs to fight, and don't even get me started on the humans no matter how many any faction destroys they persist, compared to them the tau are a curiosity at best. Literally, no faction has a reason to care about the Tau as they are.
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I feel like krieg is in a great place of grim dark DEPENDING ON HOW YOU VIEW THEM. Warhammer is the only setting where you and I can have completely different ideas about what a faction inherently is For instance I view Krieg as people born to become soldiers with that generally being their life purpose to die in battle with service to the imperium. They don’t waste their lives they try to use their very lives as currency against an enemy. It is the krieg commissrs job to determine how many lives for each assault or battle But some people believe. HURR HURR KRIEG WITH SHOVEL MARCH TO KHORNSTE BERSURKERRUR BECAUSE THEY DINT CARE TO DIE
I like that interpretation the most for current Warhammer. 30 years ago the “MARCH INTO LANDMINES FOR THE EMPEROR AND FOR FUNSIES” interpretation probably would’ve been best but for modern 40K the Kriegsmen being pragmatic and uncaring about losses but not brain dead fits the grimdark level of the current setting perfectly.
Didnt Lokan also say in Horus Rising that he considers himself and all space marines tools for the primarch and the emperor, not as (altered) human beings?
God yeah Krieg fans are so cringe I hate it. Like yeah a Krieg soldier would "totally" win against an heavily armored khorne cultist with a chainsaw sword *vomits*
The bigger issue with manual loading vs a system is, you gotta house the crew, they need space to sleep, and that space could be more guns or more ammo
Grimdark can be fun and all, but nobledark is just better overall. Grimdark that transforms into nobledark is also great. A setting without hope is a setting without real stakes and tension. If the End Times had good writing, then the Old World would still be around. There would be a climactic battle where Karl Franz and his allies just barely manage to defeat the forces of Chaos. A bunch of characters die dramatically in the process. The Old World remains a dark and dangerous place to live, but around half of the major Chaos characters and their armies just got killed by the Ordertide. The struggle continues, but the worst is behind them. Miss me with all the perpetual doom and gloom, GW. The best stories are about punching doom in the face, taking its lunch money, and saving the day. Chaos can try all they want, but they can't beat the Ordertide of chads and stacys hellbent on tearing them a new one. The world is never doomed when there's guys like Gotrek and Felix around.
I agree - I think Grimdark is good for the factions as a whole but without a little bit of bright in their it's just not that fun. Unless we're talking older Warhammer but that was a lot more memey than it is nowadays. Also Gotrek and Felix > literally any Primarch. I will not be taking any dissent.
I disagree. I get where you are coming from and noble dark can make some good and satisfying stories, but I don’t think it is inherently better. The hopelessness of grim dark can make some really compelling stories. The struggle against inevitable defeat is not invalidated by that defeat. The hero’s fight to hold back the tide because it is the right thing to do can be all the more compelling because they do it not in the hope of ultimate victory but because it is the right thing to do and it drives home just how valuable each moment their struggle buys because of their sacrifice, while moments of nobility stand out like gems against the darkness the are surrounded by. It seems to me that good grim dark deals with inevitably. After all, we all die eventually no mater what we do, but that does not make the struggle for survival pointless
@@naghogodfrank I can see that. After all, we struggle against death and oblivion every day of our lives. In the end, the fight is always lost, but it doesn't mean it was for nothing.
@@naghogodfrank I think both are at their best when intermixed, when they make the setting unpredictable but logical. Have a grimdark setting in which sometimes nobledark events happen (Emperor's victory over Horus, "Resurrection" of Guilliman etc.) but also Grimdark events happen (Emperor's internment to the Goldenthrone, Destruction of Cadia etc.) What I really hope for is creation of new characters and death of others (looking at you Abaddon, horrible writing in HH series apart from Horus rising) and CHANGE, change is needed. (T'au back on the road to a more nobledark heading, Uplifting of Eldar but in somewhat sinister manner etc.)
The worst grimderp I ever read was in Graham McNeil's "Priests of Mars", in which a huge force of Cadian Guard were attached to an explorator fleet. On board the Ark Mechanicus flagship is a training room large enough to build entire cities, which the Cadians and skitarii used to run joint live-fire training exercises. The skitarii marshal and Cadian colonel discuss the casualties afterward, remarking that the average fatality rate of 18.75% suffered by their forces during the exercise was "better than expected" and "minimal" for taking such a large city. The colonel then remarks "We'll see if we can't get it down to fifteen" by the time they reached their destination. I read this and couldn't parse how the heck he expected to have any forces left by then if every war game killed almost a fifth of his men. Grimdark training would be 20% crippling injury rate that had to be fixed with basic augmetics afterward to keep the men in fighting shape. 20% fatality rate is just stupidly wasteful, and it was in an otherwise seriously-written story.
The definition of casualty is “a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action”. Meaning that 18% of his troops were taken out of combat one way or another. Not necessarily killed.
It's usually okay for sub-factions to be a bit brighter (Marines: Salamanders/Guilliman, Tau: Farsight Enclaves), it just can't be the WHOLE faction, or they become the default good guys (which isn't a narrative problem UNLESS you want to retain maximum grimdark).
I may be branded a heretic for this, but there are already good guys in Warhammer 40k. Not by other IP's standards, but by the standards of Warhammer, there are good and bad guys. When you have Chaos, Tyrannids, and Orks who want to destroy everything for fun, they are bad guys. Whether you judge order vs chaos, or life vs death, they are bad on both counts. And anyone who fights them is some kind of good guy, even if they don't fit in the real world. It's that simple.
Weirdly, I find the enclaves not grimdark enough, while the empire as a whole is too grimdark. The ethereals, specifically Aun'va, are just so overwhelmingly evil that they make the faction feel stupid, despite the fact that they are supposed to be the most grounded faction. On the other hand, Farsight is presented as being absurdly good at all times, never being shown to have any moral complexity.
A tremendous amount of the lore for how logistics and ammunition "work" in 40k are stupid as all hell. Servitors carrying radioactive caskets into reactors to just fucking die and fall apart at the very end of this humongous walkway that doesn't need to be nearly as involved as it is. Titans being only a few dozen meters in height by official lore but artistic depictions rendering them at hundreds of meters tall. Titans in general, honestly, having the ammunition they do with the extraordinarily limited physical space they have for their ballistic weapons. Star ships having guns that are loaded by people rather than by any automated system, when even WWII battleships with shells the size of a normal man weighed upwards of 800 pounds? 40k lore can be amazing. It can be fantastic, even. My personal favorites being the Adeptus Mechanicus books, but it can get repetitive and infuriatingly nonsensical.
I mean that’s your opinion, but if you dislike that kind of thing then you should consider a different hobby. Things are stupid because that’s literally part of the world building. Yes it’s all horribly inefficient, that’s the point.
Grimdark is at its best when it's used to make even the most minor noble acts take the spotlight. It's that contrast where in a vast darkness, even a small light makes an impact.
Personally I draw the line at too much grimdark at when there’s no hope at all. If there was no hope for the imperium just have the whole thing commit mass suicide and use the psychic feedback of the event to kill the chaos gods who cares life wasn’t worth living anyway. A little glimmer of hope gives people a reason to keep fighting impossible odds instead of just surviving ten more minutes. A story with no good guys and no chance of a satisfying ending is boring. 40k gets really tiresome after awhile when any time they shake things up it’s always just more of the same.
Grim: A single great good or great evil can't change the status quo of the setting or stop the girthy weight of its momentum (ex. OG Gundam or Sandman). Dark: Outlook of the setting is pessimistic, people are depicted as fundamentally selfish or at least uncaring, and the extent to which someone can be considered "good" is often inversely proportional to their agency/power (ie Berserk and Sin City).
Something something it's faster to be loaded manually then with a pulley system so it's worth the death rate cuz saving one second is a difference between life and death
@@pancreasnowork9939 Block or be knowledgeable bombed your choice, I will now start copy pasting my arugment for why it makes sense from a 2004 arugment I had on an old Warhammer IRC chat According to the Rouge Trader: Core Rulebook 1989 pg. 208 Macro cannons are defined as being 1/931
This is pretty fair i'd say for the most part. Berserk is "grimdark" (that term if fucking stupid) because it's logical for the setting to be that way. there are hopeful moments and signs of good things in the world because without it then there wouldn't be any reason to give a damn about the story. It's not dark because it has to be its dark because thats what the world they live in is
Yeah berserk is actually an incredibly sentimental and caring series. Even the worst villain have a lot of tragedy to them and are sympathetic in a lot of ways. It’s able to get away with being so dark because it’s always couched in this sense understandableness to it all.
refueling a ship was silly too imo. Send someone in to replace the .. ah.. what was it? .. just call it fuelcell. While he replace it, he's burning to death by the heat. Like with the reloading.. I mean the imperium has a lot of people to burn through, yes, but the amount of (unnessacery) deaths would mean the imperium would decline. It still need at least 16 years until a newborn human can put to work..
plus you have to burn fuel to transport them into space to be in the position to refuel a cruiser/etc. i can believe human lives might be cheap if there are enough hive cities, but that doesn't mean transporting them to the location you are useing them is cheap.
Grimdark is a feeling the story tries to capture. Having mumbers of death so high and pages on pages describing how nameless hundreds died while the writers forget what they were even writing about is just cringe.
I honestly like the Tau as actual good guys. I mean what's darker than the only good guys surviving not because of superior tactics or weapons, but because they're so insignificant that no one has bothered to kill them yet. A single hive world contains more humans than there are Tau in the galaxy, not to mention the fact that the Tau are routinely blind sided by how fucked up and powerful everything else is. Like when they were convinced they killed Slanesh and the Emperor, because they failed to grasp that these were literal gods. To my mind, this suggests that any large scale attack from just about any other faction or subfaction stands a decent chance of wiping the Tau out entirely. Especially given the Tau don't have any world ending superweapons, and pretty much everyone else does.
I'm so glad someone else is as bothered by the idiotic loading system of Imperial ship weapons! Fuck it could still be grimdark with some mechanical system and large crews like something out of that Memories Cannonfodder anime.
It's one of the things I love about the Overlord (Ainz Ool Gown) series, how it balances the absolute grim terror of fighting (or trying to maintain independence) against a power too great to reason with, while that same power is just a bumbling paranoid everyman that fumbles his way into conquering half the world because his minions missundertood him and he's too awkward to disapoint them now. All that just by shifting perspectives a little, from one of the allmighty warriors of death to the weak and feeble people thet have to fight them.
I know it's not entirely transitive, but when I think of the total grimdark "there is no hope" stuff, I'm reminded of Professor Tolkien and his letter on why he stopped writing his sequel to LotR and how writing something that dark and depressing was "not worth doing." If there isn't hope for something better, why should we stick around and continue to care?
I think the imperium actually has good motivation either current or founding: Current: don’t get killed and or eaten by the galaxy full of horrors that are actively trying to wipe out, mind control, or convert to their horror cult all of humanity Founding goal: reunite all of man kind in to an enlightened empire of knowledge, progress and reason. (Plus all the stuff n current imperium’s motivation) The methods and rampant corruption are where the imperium gets all grim dark.
Good Grimdark takes itself serious: Both sides have clear motivations that justify ( to them) what they do. Both sides behave in accordance to these motivations and if they don t, then it needs to be explained thorougly. Both sides struggle, take clear casulties and sacrifice much to achieve their goals Sometimes they do, sometimes they don t. The wider setting interacts in a consistent manner with both sides and may nullify their struggle through larger events. Grimdark is when you struggle, sacrifice, fight to the last and beyond and it´s still not enough because factors outside your control are against you, maybe just by a freak coincidence. That everything that is portryed as good and noble is not an guarantie for anything and the characters might not even know it. That the reader is knows that things are about to go wrong through his view, yet is helpless because the characters couldn t possibly know from their position in the setting.
Honestly been a warhammer fan for over 10 years and can honestly say both lore states of 40k and AOS are my favorite atm. They are still horrificaly fucked but there's enough stuff to actually care about that when things go horrible you care about them instead of going "ohh just another grim thing hehe". AOS book about lumineth and them literally coming back to their home after a victory vs a small band to see their entire hometown burned into nothingness is a perfect example. You get that "ye we kicked their ass" but then the grim settings kicks in and you realize how much they actually lost.
The greater good is actually very beneficial to it's allies ! Kroot got protection and the world back, and human colonies got better industry technology and weapons, better agriculture and so on, and what they had to do is help the Tau when needed ! Basically, the tau help you and, in return, you help them, this is he relation you have with them !
I think it's neat if some Imperium planets work together in secret, not as close ally but in a give-and-take sort of ways. Tau guns would probably be pretty useful for a planet's military, especially in a world of overly complicated bureaucracy with most if not all tech is monopolized by a group of tech-fetishist with somewhat questionable sense of loyal, not to mention all the ork and eldar raids in the world.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 imperial agri-worlds are more efficient, sure, but the actual tech on them is often medieval to modern age, and the ones with futuristic technology are typically just greener forge worlds that produce plants instead of guns
I think warhammer fantasy handles grimdark far better over all. its dark and has hopelessness but there are aspects of the world worth actually fighting for and the reasons for its grimdark aspects are more often then not understandable. while many times in 40k when it comes to story there is very little reason to even care about most events because the outcome is destined to be the same and nothing really matters in a setting so large
The best form of Grimdark would be the one where there is hope amidst the storm. An example would be the TMNT 2003 cartoon episode "The Same as it Never Was", an episode where it starts off with the Shredder having successfully conquered Earth and several other planets, with the people being worked to death in Shredder's labor camps as Shredder's robot minions eradicate all resistance worldwide. You get to live this dark future for about half an hour until the turtles get their asses in gear and mount one final assault against the Shredder-which gets most of them killed. Shredder does die, but only after the other characters bite it. The final shot shows a new hope as without Shredder, human society could rebuild, and we see a sunrise for the first time in this bleak world. It was short, sweet, and it didn't overstay its welcome, which is the opposite of 40K grimdark where they linger on it for too long, yet the main guys all have plot armor so the grimdark atmosphere doesn't matter; at that point, it's just window dressing, because there's no way in hell Rowboat Girlyman or the top guys are going to die. Cadia fell, whoop-dee-doo, there's a million more worlds in the Imperium where that came from, so it's not like that's going to cause a permanent mark.
I always considered the most needlessly grimdark thing to be a tie between the entire existence of the Daemonculaba or The since retconned Bloodtide incident
@@algirdas25pl31 Basically some fool writers over at GW tried to retcon all gellar fields to run on sedated psykers tormented nightmares (the tormenting of them to death is totally required guys!) when this makes absolutely no sense. If the writers had said "Here is a horrible way to make Gellar Fields that some folks are using." that would have been fine, even claiming that the methods to make less stupiddark Gellar Field generators are mostly lost and this is the truth of the current times replacement would have been tolerable. But humanity had gellar fields WELL before they had any knowledge of human psykers existing, so it makes no goddamn sense to try and retcon that. Plus, the logistics of it simply cause more narrative/setting problems than it solves. Essentially, if the writers had said 'this ship' or 'ships made here' or 'this model of Gellar Field Generator' worked that way? No issue. Heck, uncovering that could be the big plot twist of a good Inquisition/Dark Heresy storyline... but the Imperium could not function as written everywhere in the lore if that was the only way to do it, or even the most common way.
@@algirdas25pl31 Not sure if you got the answer because RUclips says that 2 people answered but I only see your post. But just in case. The gellar field retcon was quite one of the most stupidest retcons I have seen and it only exists to tickle that " Uhh thats grimdark" box. Basically instead of using machinery to shield yourself from the warp, ships use comatose psykers whose dreams can somehow create a bubble of reality inside the warp. There was even a version where the psyker dies on every warp jump but I think it has been retconned again because this is even more stupid. 1000 psykers a day to feed the astronomicon gets mentioned, because how important this is but needing a psyker as a gellar fiel generator doesn't? Its just stupid and one of the things I put into the grimderp category, like the cannon reloading stuff. Both would be great for a purely satirical setting and memes, but since Warhammer has grown the setting itself went into the direction of taking itself more and more serious and to do that thing must make sense for the universe.
I find it difficult for me to really put my heart into a deeply Grimdark setting because...well why am I even bothering? I can't engage properly if no one's relatable and I'm not going to care if the only relatable ones are doomed and I'm just waiting out the inevitable. I need to know that it's at least theoretically possible for the relative good guys to succeed, and at the very least for victory to occur at all for anyone. I like the Tau because despite how massively outnumbered and gunned they are, they show at least the possibility that things could be better. I think the best Grimdark is the one that could hypothetically not be Grimdark, because then you have to stick around to see what happens.
Warhammer Fantasy (not Age of Shitmar) had the perfect ballance of grimdark, hope, and quaintness, that made for a perfect setting. 99% of humans humans in 40k will never even see natural sunlight, never smell fresh air, and be brutally and needlessly killed while nobody cares because it happens every day. At least in fantasy your guys will have seen a few summers and winters, have tasted real food and breathed fresh air. At least they will have been happy Once in their lives. I think if most of us saw a human from the 40k universe, we would think they were a litteral zombie. Pale and withered, malnourished, stinking and shuffeling around hunched over and lethargic.
Remember that story when the Tau get their first taste of a (relatively normal by galactic standards) shipboard daemon incursion? That made them start reducing auxiliaries btw.
The bit about the lack of autoloaders and how they need hundreds of slaves per gun makes even less sense when you consider they clearly have the technology to mass produce vehicles like chimeras/leman russes/etc by the hundreds of thousands, so you’d think that they’d just repurpose similar vehicle chassises as forklifts to get things done more efficiently
My main issue with the fixation on "grimdark" is that it is hard to be invested in a story or characters if ultimate defeat is a foregone conclusion. There can be substantial victories, but it has to be earned by dealing with hard challenges along the way. This is why major accomplishments feel so awesome in Warhammer, because the dangers and risk stacked against one makes eventual success a mighty feat.
I agree but I will always stick with Farsight because punching the stupid Bugs and Mushrooms and slicing them to bits inside a mech suit while being practically the closest thing to a Ronin in 40k is just badass to me
This is why Ciaphas Cain is my absolute favorite character in 40k. The novels are a perfect blend between funny and grim, Ciaphas and his bullshitting his hole of lies even deeper is always great for a big grin, Jergen is bro-tier, Amberly both draws me in and scares the crap out of me, and frankly the books are just good old fashioned F-U-N. Something I feel is really lacking in the majority of 40k.
I enjoy where I’m at, it’s a lot easier to respond to comments and talk with others at this level. It’d be awesome to blow up again though, just gotta get another video like the one of mine that went wild. And thanks for the kind words, it’s appreciated!
I think “Nobledark” is my favorite of the offshoots/levels of Grimdark. Most of the “Gaunt’s Ghosts” books fit this definition IMO. Like, we’re surrounded by horror and there’s very little chance that what we do here will change the sheer amount of “fucked” that everything is, but there’s still *some* hope and God-Emperor damn it, we won’t sink to the level of those Chaos-loving bastards! We might all be doomed, but defiance in the face of doom is what makes us *human!!!* That sort of thing. Long story short, I like the kind of story where everything’s shit, but people don’t accept that it *always* has to be that way and at least *try* to fight back against the darkness.
Never like the grimmdark of 40K, it's really just grimderp, that why I always prefer Fantasy. Also I'm tired of the Chaos God to be the ultimate evil, I would prefer that other evil faction to be equally dangerous or more redical that the order faction can win against the chaos, but in their righteousness become equally bad has the opposite faction who in contraste become the protagonist.
Well Chaos kind of fills that role, they provide "freedom" (everyone is a pawn but Chaos pawns tend to have more leeway) and possibly satisfaction for you. There is also the underlying concept of truth that was especially prevalent in HH-series in which Chaos represented a truth of the universe and the Imperium spread a lie of it. I agree that they should make Chaos into more shades of grey but that would be hard to make interesting in a setting of such contrasting factions. Perhaps they could start fleshing out the Great crusade period in which they faced a lot of different kinds of civilizations some "corrupt" (A world where a Tzeentchian cult freed the world from a tyrant and created a democracy or something like that) in differing degrees.
@@castor3020 "I agree that they should make Chaos into more shades of grey but that would be hard to make interesting in a setting of such contrasting factions" On the contrary, it would make thing interesting. Chaos just being an uber-version of Sauron is pretty lame, especially since they are supposed to be also feed by positive emotion. GW should go back in earlier edition when they just copy Michael Moorcock work and make two opposing pantheon, one prepresenting Order feed by positiv energy and Chaos by negative one. But that just an idea.
Tbh in Fantasy, i would like to like the Dark Elves, but they are displayed so edgy and one dimensional to a point where i question how their society even survived, being elves and all, backstabbing pieces of ass and constantly massacering each other, how did they not die out yet? They would be the prime example of a civilization so hedonistic it would self-destruct or grow so weak that they'd be overran by other forces due to the infighting and instability.
I think that lore tidbit about the slaves and rounds is more fitting for chaos instead of the imperium. Chaos marines equipment is often old and broken and there isn’t a lot of resources to repair them and depending on the chaos faction the agony the slaves feel could empower their god. They could also use people from imperial worlds they’ve raided as slaves to do this.
While not fully related I'd like if there were more positive depictions of Chaos and joining it, maybe a more casual religious overlook on in, I just think it would make Chaos more interesting and also add to the grim nature of the imperium by showing that their cruel way of life isn't the only way of life
I feel Warhammer 40k is at is best when the general setting is hopeless but the individual still have hopes and dreams. A lot of character in Dan Abnets inquisitor series and even Caiphas Cain have, at the end of the day zero impact on the setting as a whole ( your destroyed the Glore, good on you have 10 000 other heretical family's, you saved Perlea from orcs big deal for every other world eaten by the cicatrix maledictum) but we can get attached to the protagonist and their wants and aspiration, we can agree or disgree on where their individual line is even if the empire doesn't have one. I feel the grimdark setting fails when they try to apply the level of Absolut 24/7 misery to every single character. It's not that it's not dark... it's just boring at that point.
My biggest problem with grimdaek series is that they dont know how to make a good story Berserk is probably one of the most famous grimdark story's over there Because why? Because is fucking funny and heart harm The eclipse would NEVER have a fragment of the impact if we dont see Guts loving the band of the Hawke and Casca, or seeing the relationship with Griffith Grimdark hits hard when is accompanied with hope, because someone being miserable 100% of the time is kinda boring But someone being miserable after finding happiness? THAT is completely shattering The Last of Us is kinda of grimdark, the world dont have a cure The government is collapsing Raiders all over the place But what is the greatest moment? Is not some gruesome scene Is a simple "I promise"
I think the perfect balance is exactly where ever you want it to be. If you like Warhammer because it is hopeless then make that your cannon, if you like the more sterically side of it like Rouge Trader then go with that. Hell you can even decide how grimdark it is based on your mood that day.
Well, I've been writing a multi-crossover fanfiction where terrible things happen like a Witch Hunter burning down a village and piling the bodies of the villagers like animals and a Slaangor tasting the flesh of young girls like a demented carnoisseur only for said characters to get their comeuppance for example: the Witch Hunter had his face blown off by Ash's Boom-stick and the Slaangor was cut in half by Guts' sword, Dragonslayer.
To me grimdark needs the smallest glimmer if hope even if it's folly to be truly effective. Hell you could go all out with good guys slowly losing their shit in pursuit of it like if the Tau slowly started doing their fucked up shit while still in pursuit of the greater good for the universe. rouge Space Marine chapters who have had enough with the bullshit of the imperiom and dedicated them self purely to a cause. You have some fun interesting stories with some stuff to think about there.
"Space Marine chapters who have had enough with the bullshit of the imperiom and dedicated them self purely to a cause" basically how chaos space marines became a thing. Or so the emperor would say.....for anything else is blasphemy.
Though I did not feel emotionally disturbed by the Daemonculaba, I certainly do think it's quite TMI. No one really needs to know in depth on how some chaos marines are made, and giving the tagline that they were made by "unspeakable horrific actions" is quite enough, and gets the point across.
The main point of a grimdark setting is that the line between good and evil is so blurred to the point of it becoming meaningless. Warhammer is genuinely a grimdark setting, thus I'm constantly puzzled by its fans still viewing the Imperium as the good guys and the Chaos Gods as the bad guys. The Chaos Gods, while not technically created by humans, were very much empowered by them, or more precisely by all the evil deeds of humanity. Deeds that happened naturally, not due to the Chaos Gods' interference, that came later once they actually became powerful and than wanted even more power. In essence the Chaos Gods are simply the universe's(or settings' if you prefer) reaction to the evil deeds of humanity(and the other races too, but the setting is so human focused so mostly the humans, though there's always Slaanesh...). Yes the Chaos Gods do evil things, but than so does the Imperium, so what makes one the good guys and one the bad guys? If anything the Emperor stands for order whereas the Chaos Gods stand for well, chaos. However neither order nor chaos are inherently good or evil. DND actually got this right with its alignment system differentiating between order and chaos and good and evil, so you can have chaotic good and lawful evil characters for example. I'd argue that the fact that most Warhammer fans completely disagree with my notion above suggests that the Warhammer universe is way too grimdark to the point of its audience becoming completely desensitized to it. After all death, violence, etc, need to actually have some meaning in order to be relevant, and for the setting to be taken seriously. When billions of people die on a daily basis in the universe, and not from natural causes mind you. Than there's an entire race: Drukkari as well as 1 of the Chaos Gods: Slaanesh, who commit horrendous acts of torture and pain in all its many forms, to millions if not billions of people on a daily basis as well than all this death and violence loses its meaning. It's just another day in the Warhammer 40k universe. I'm not saying these deaths shouldn't happen or anything, as it's part of the grimdark setting after all, but as you correctly said in your video it's all about context. We don't get enough context for the impact these deaths have, both from the personal level: on the families and friends of the deceased as well as the global level: on entire planets who lost a large portion of their fighting population in a single battle/raid/whatever. Thus the grimdark setting of Warhammer 40k loses a lot of its edge because it all meshes together and becomes ultimately meaningless.
The most important thing to consider is that while the characters might be immoral (let's be honest, 40k is not "morally ambiguous"), the author needs to hint that they themselves know right from wrong. Because, again, 40k goes too far looking for the "good guys" in the setting full of evil - and ends up justifying genocides and glorifying what they previously firmly established as fascism.
If you talk about Gitrek and Felix the thing that makes them Grimdark is the toll the upbeat adventures take on them. Felix finishes the series an old man, nothing in his life but a brief and violent future. By juxtaposing what were more hopeful stories with the descent in darkness tatt the characters experience it makes it a more effective story telling device as opposed to sad boys in power armour are sad because we need some edge.
I've only gotten into WH40K, and part of the reason is how SUPER OVER THE TOP it is. I've only just found your channel and I LOVE IT. (The google search in this video killed me.)
My favorite moments in book are when something becomes so over the top that it breaks and I end up laughing about it. What I don’t like are “Popular Characters” literally achieving and performing the impossible in a regular bases.
I personally prefer my Grimdark to have a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. Yeah shit is terrible now and things can come all crashing down, but do the right things and hope and a better tomorrow can happen. More of a earn your happy ending type of thing I suppose.
I think the funniest thing is that grimdark was only imposed onto fantasy in 6e. It was not originally intended to be a grimdark setting. It's fine regardless of how grimdark it is.
I think the big draw of grimdark is that, while it is nothing but pure terror in-universe, to the audiences, it's almost silly. To us, Orks are just big, green football hooligans and not unstoppable murder machines that can never be truly extinguished.
Just found this channel, really awesome video. Since everyone else is doing it, guess il give my 2cents on grimdark too. One of my favorite series of all time is Berserk. It's extremely dark, even by 40k standards. There is little, is any hope for a better tomorrow. Yet, Guts keeps moving forward, enduring all of the horrifying bullshit the Berserk universe has to offer, and with great struggle is slowly but surely coming out on top. The brutality of his circumstances only serve to make his accomplishments all that brighter. The same concept for grimdark goes for 40k. As a few have pointed out, grimdark without any hope is just boring. Like, why continue right? But with a little hope, even just the tiniest sliver of it, there is still a reason to keep fighting. It also means that when the good guys eventually win, victory will be all that more sweet. For example, the return of the emperor in TTS khaines gate was fucking awesome. No one said "Lol, this too shitty and noblebright, Bruva ur such a baby." No, everyone said, "For the first time in 10 thousand FUCKING years, there is some measure of hope for galaxy. About fucking time" In short, grimdark, at least in regards to 40k, is a means to end. It should be used as a tool to darker everything so that when light eventually shines through, it is all that more bright. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
@@castor3020 Pity GW didn't do a better job with it. Examples of 'better' to me: Primaris is an upgrade process for existing marines along with stashes of geneseed, wargear and supplies, Eldar get their God of the Dead but it still needs to drain other craftworlds infinity circuts to be ready to confront Slaneesh, Tau get FTL to expand their empire but it relies on some member race who is gaining a lot of power as a result, Primarch's start to return in response to Cadia falling in defiance, etc.
I just like being the good guys. I don't think I have to justify it. I can have my Star Trekky moral crusaders and not make even a dent in the horrific crap Chaos is doing everywhere.
Put the Tau in Star Wars, and at most, they'll just be a side villain that works with the good guys. Especially the Rebel Alliance and the Jedi. Jedi in the New Republic can get hilariously dark it's funny that they stay on the Light Side. And given that the Tau don't have hyperspace or the firepower of the Imperial Navy, they'll probably just end up being a side race that Thrawn, Tarkin, or Vader annihilated in their spare time. Shit, I don't even see them winning against the KOTOR-era Sith Empire, much less the Galactic Empire which had more advanced firepower and 12-70 million worlds.
Grimdark goes too far when A) It can't justify its existence B) Just thinking about its implications for two seconds makes it obvious it isn't sustainable B.1) Related to the above, in order to avoid breaking the setting, it has to be changed and retconned constantly (the best example from WH40K in my opinion are the Tyranids, which as they were presented are an unstoppable endgame scenario, so they need to be nerfed almost to the point of making their enemies absurdly lucky or making them borderline dysfunctional, on top of constantly pushing back the impending doom of the galaxy) C) Perhaps the most important one, regardless of how well justified or how well it fits the setting, it doesn't provide material for interesting stories, meaning it doesn't make narrative sense. Also, the stagnant nature of grimdark universes doesn't mean everything has its evil factor turned to 11. Vampire counts and Tomb Kings in Warhammer fantasy for example had the overall evil of bloodsucking undead creatures of the night and skeletal lich kings turned **DOWN** to make them viable as civilizations. If vampires couldn't win, but couldn't be exterminated, then there had to be a way to make them sustainable, thus we have Vlad von Carstein, an example of a vampire lord who understood the need to actually maintain a constant population of living humans under his rule, meaning vampires had to learn to rule, meaning they had to account for peasant rebellions, meaning they had to somehow maintain the favor of their subjects. Add the fact that Sylvania isn't an independent state, but part of the Empire and this opens up a whole universe of narrative possibilities.
That one scene "Angels of Death-Origins: Kill Command" where they're loading the torpedo's. For the longest time I thought they were only doing that since the entire ships systems were down. I couldn't, and still can't fathom, the Imperium with Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, all this advance technology still needing to have people manually load torpedo's and batteries for their ship. It really does lower the grimdark too much. How are we suppose to feel sympathy for anyone that dies in battle when that many people have died by traveling to a destination.
The Mechanicus uses autoloaders in their ships, but they are at a severe disadvantage if boarded since enemy forces can easily sabotage lightly defended machinery, also yea the imperial navy uses assisted loading mechanisms, but it's just simpler and easier to have a few hundred people hoist a shell the last few meters into the breach than an over complicated machine that might break during battle. Warhammer void combat is really a good deal more realistic than anything in more fanciful stuff starting with Star, although Halo has it beat.
7:05 Someone pointed that it was to prevent the ship's machine spirit to have any control on the big gunz, to prevent it from refusing to bomb innocents civillians or shooting friendlies. But yeah, that thing is mostly dumb
I defined grimdark as a literary movement emphasizing the absence of good or progress in the world that was especially present in fantasy in the late-70's or 80's and was only relatively recently supplanted.
As other people have pointed out, early Tau worked because they were the only good faction in a setting jam packed with factions and characters who were outright evil. They were a very small light in the darkness that could be extinguished at any time if other races decided that they were now worth the trouble. New Tau are yet another villanous faction in a setting filled with villanous factions. On the flip side, old Necrons were slaves to the C'tan and wanted nothing more than to kill everyone else in the name of their Gods. Newcrons leave me wondering if Games Workshop wants me to root for the unstoppable killer robots in their quest to reclaim what rightfully belonged to their empire. Seriously GW, do you want me to hope that Szarekh saves the galaxy from the Tyranids? Necrons can be written as interesting, even sympathetic characters without making them relatable. TL;DR I like a lot of the old lore, and the setting was always grimdark even if people didn't realise it.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Grimdark: Where the good guys are bad and miserable and the bad guys are badder but having a wonderful time.
Ww2 in a nutshell
@Tech Priest lol no thank you, im already feed up with muh germans were the rel victims bs
@Tech Priest stfu i know all of that, I've seen the 5 and 6 hours documentaries, ive done my research, im no normie. But you however are a nothing but a pathetic tool for manipulation, its easy to see that simply by your bs superiority complex and blind idolatry of neo nazi made up arianism idoliogy. The nazis were never the good guys neither were anyone else. In rela life there are no good or bad guys. Fucking grow up
@Aquarium Gravel literally said "I've seen the 5 and 6 hours documentaries" before that. you did try picking on an easy insult but you only made yourself look bad. if that wasnt enough, your incapability of understanding my name is not spanish but portuguese only shows how little do you care about actually learning stuff exept when it favours your schizophrenic made up world view that you so dearly defend because you are too afraid to confront your sentiment of belonging and being proud of something greater.
you trully are severely delayed, the prove that whites are not superior than anyone else and a shame to everyone.
PS: my profile pic was taken when i was 9 yo. 10 years have passed and im still as white as i was and always will be.
@@pedrobarbosaduarte3704 Dude the average german soldier WAS kinda the victim tho. It was the NAZI party thats really the villain
Tau actually make the setting much darker imo. The only faction attempting to make things better is hopelessly naive and can be crushed at any moment. The contrast is what makes things dark. If nothing is hopeful, nothing is dark.
Bingo!
What make them poor grimdark, is not the fact that they are the good guys, the problem is that they are the good guys, and are not slowly getting crushed, as you says they the can be crushed at any time but they aren't, even worse than that they are a new race that is expanding, which contradict one of the major theme of 40K which is that every faction on the "good side" is decating, but also kind of contradict the logic that they can be crushed anytime, as if they actually started to be a problem they should get immediatly crus has a reaction, and give that awful feel of plot armor, this is even more reinforced buy how little is their empire compared to the gigantic scale of everyother race, and how hard the author try to make them part of big event where they simply don't fit because of their size (which is a really dumb problem they self created as there was more than enough space in the warhammer for another big alien empire, one of the thing I am the most salty about is why game workshop didn't made the t'au an alliance of every other minor alien race the Imperium is bullying out of existence, and maybe adding a new big one on top of that to cement the concept).
Seriously what cheapen the lore of the T'au are things like the Damocles Crusade, where the reader need to simultaneously accept that the imperium cared so much about the T'au they organised a crusade, but also didn't care enough to actually send a crusade size forces. Trying to pass of an army barely the size of the amount forces involved in WW2 asa crusade in 40K is bad, it cheapen the meaning of the word crusade in the lore. Crusade should be a term reserved for major conflict with lasting impact on the galactic scale, and involve countless world, it shouldn't be used for small localized conflict that barely involve a hundred world. The misuse of the term crusade really give a bad vibe of plot armor to the T'au. Call it what it is the Damocles Skirmish. If you wanted to make the T'au part of a crusade you should have made them bigger.
40K has working grimdark good guys. A good example of that is the Lamenters which are well intentioned space marines that go as far as really trying to protect civilian, and see countless loss of human life as a tragedy. And because of that they get grimdark treatment reserved for good guys, they get constantly screwed by the world face many more challenges because of such belief, and ultimately triumph but only through great sacrifice maintaining hope. And they are a Fan favorite because of that.
So no the T'au don't make the 40k universe more grimdark, the Lamenters do.
@@benjaminparent4115 It kinda sucks to be a Tau fan indeed... Acceptance for the blue bois in the whole setting is pretty rough when stuffs like empire size and plot armor are often used to undermine what little the Tau currently try their best to prove themselves that they are a meaningful part of the world.
@@benjaminparent4115 I feel you missed the forest for the trees. The Tau being actual good guys and even "succeeding" in a nightmare of a galaxy is perfect for grimdark because we know that that if they ever succeed enough to actually strike a spark, light a candle of hope, then no less than 5 separate factions are going to swarm them and drive them back to the stone age at best. The Tau are such an insignificant speck on a galactic scale that they could double their holdings and still make no dent in the amount of godawful hell the rest of the galaxy. The fact that these guys are genuinely good people who could and want to improve the lives of anyone who'll let them and they are so piss weak and powerless that that is the canon reason they are even allowed to exist by the other factions because they're too much effort to destroy and too insignificant to take seriously. That's grimdark gold.
@@Gibbons3457 No it is not because the fact that some people are inherently good completely sucks, it is bad writing.
It even goes against one of the important aspect of 40K. In 40k one of the main antagonist is the incarnation of human desire. People are not fighting stupidly evil demon they are fighting the dark desire of humans (and also eldar) that ook physical form. And even when not fighting chaos, there is always that struggle of not empowering those dark desire, even when humanity fight orks necron or tyrannid they also need to do it in a way that doesn't fuel Chaos. 40K is not just about fighting gigantic monster it is also about inner struggle, not just fighting to survive but figting to become a better person
To continue on my Lamenters comparison, people like Lamenters because despite all they went through they didn't fall to Chaos. The same cannot be said about the T'au because they don't fall for Chaos, I am not even sure they fuel Chaos.
The dumbest grimdumb I ever ran into was a Rogue Trader lore snippet which described a rogue trader refueling their ship by having crew carry caskets of radioactive material into the reactor and just dying when they got inside. Are we the audience supposed to believe that a civilization that flies around in city sized space ships has never considered a conveyor belt of some kind? or even just a really really long metal stick?
Or just... a ramp?
Oh yeah I heard about this. I justified it in my head as “Reactor fucks up the mechanics of conveyor”
@@boomboone47 ok but consider:
A slight incline
Some people consider the reason that they do this because they are basically prisoners condemned to death, so that is why the imperium doesn't give a shit, same for the shell reload.
Unfortunately fork lifts were lost in the dark age of technology
The problem with grimdark is that it doesn't leave much room for contrast.
If misery, tragedy, and anguish is the norm, what makes them special? There has to be good to emphasize the suffering. This is why good, noble, and heroic characters making their final stand shine brightest in a grimdark setting. Because while, in the end, these characters know that they'll all die and their efforts may have been in vain, they would still give it their all to defy the evil they're fighting.
The constant struggle of light trying remain lit hoping against hope to, one day, cast away the darkness. That's what I think makes grimdark great. I personally believe that without the triumph of the forces of good, grimdark isn't grimdark. Its miseryporn.
In the case for Warhammer, I don't think warhammer can exist solely as a grimdark genre anymore. It has become so expansive that confining it into a single genre would be constricting and introduces more grimderp stories than proper grimdark ones. I would argue that any genre can exist within the franchise. What matters more is how consistent it'll be with the universe.
That’s just about my take on it, at least for a setting trying to be somewhat serious but still grimdark.
If whoever’s at least somewhat of a “good guy” never achieves anything or their group as a whole gives up, it’s not worth following. If the goals are abandoned even if they’re impossible to achieve, who cares?
In a silly setting go nuts, have everyone be the most cartoonishly evil and stupid people they can be. But if you want to tell a serious story, you gotta have some small glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.
That’s my take anyways.
“Give a hero no hope, and they’ll accept fate. Give a hero just a little bit of hope, and they won’t be able to accept their fate and will truly despair”
Don’t remember where I heard that or if I got it right
Could be a chaos god.
Sounds like it came from gurran Logan
@@calebbarnhouse496 I have no idea what that is.
@@comradebusman3 it's a very well known anime that is where a lot of people got a first taste of mech anime
Red death from venture bros?
I like goofy parody levels of grimdark in 40K. I love juxtaposing how serious events in the setting are for the characters with how goofy the events and characters are to the player/reader. An Ork Gargant is a walking junkyard full of sentient mushroom men and that's hilarious, but for the PDF conscript who has to defend a hive city it's a literal nightmare.
5:30 What I thought really sold them as evil. Was the fact the Dark Eldar can supplement any strong emotion to stop the soul suck.
They just *Chose* to be vindictive assholes who murder rape everything. When they could infact become the monsters from monsters inc, entertain people such as the Harlaquins (used to anyway. I am not uptodate on there lore at all.), or be genuine good guys and feed of the emotions of gradatuide, love, and praise.
They could do this. They instead chose the path of pain, blood, and sorrow; and the greatest irony is that this path might be amongst the least efficant, and stable.
They wouldnt suffer so much if they turned Comorragh into a brotel
@@mrdoot0730 *raises a finger... always lowers that finger.*
"Wait... you have point."
There is so much people you can kill until you run out of people.
Considering they are basically slaves of Slaanesh, I can't say that I'm surprised.
I guess that its because causing pain is the "easiest" way to get strong emotions out of someone. Making someone really happy is a lot harder than putting them in a prison and slowly flailing them over the period of weeks.
One actually sorta convincing defense on manual cannon loading I've seen is normally the cannons ARE self loading (IDK the validity of this assumption), but when said loading mechanism breaks down the captain/rogue trader/admiral/whoever the fuck is in charge of the ship crunches some numbers and comes to the conclusion that it is cheaper in the short term ("short term" in 40k can be literally lifetimes) to get, house, and feed a few hundred/thousand slaves to load it rather than pay the Mechanicus to fix up for them. As in many, many instances the equipment and money is considered more important than human workers, it just might fight.
That’s better than most defenses I’ve seen for it but to be honest, I still can’t wrap my head around how the numbers can add to that way.
It’s also possible I am just a goddamned lunatic obsessing over a minor detail way too much.
@@pancreasnowork9939 I don’t think you are. It’s just a holdover from when aesthetic overruled any and all logic when it came to 40k. Don’t get my wrong it’s a killer aesthetic and feeling that I miss somewhat, but it doesn’t work if you turn on your brain.
I really like the idea and the image, but sadly It is undenaidably stupid. The only way to fix this without destroy the whole idea is: there is self loading mechanism, but It's just flawed (aka An error in the STC) and require costant help of a group of slave/worker. Now maybe istead of hundreds of deads, there are just a couple one streched in days, or maybe captain can assign this job to prisoner or rebelius crewmemeber. The possibility are endless and you can get a good story instead of "Lol thousand of people died each hour".
@@pancreasnowork9939 I'm not exactly defending this myself, mind you. It's just the most feasible explanation that I've ever heard. But even in the case of the primary loading mechanism breaking down, surely many small mechanical chain pullers would be more efficient? Unless the Mechanicus would take issue with THAT replacement for some ungodly reason, as opposed to the chain-pulling slave solution....
@@Draconzis I can see that hypothetical scenario quite believable, especially in the context of the setting. Remember, the mechanicus basically holds a monopoly over all things technology in the imperium so they can realistically charge their "customers" however much they want to have their stuff fixed. Also take into consideration the mechanicus' obsession with canticles and prayers to the machine spirit and you can see how the costs for a simple repair can stack up exponentially.
On to your suggestion of chain pulley system. Again, do realize that the imperium, and the mechanicus by extension, frowns upon any form of tech modification/innovation and such a system CAN be considered as an example of such innovation. So is it really worth risking yourself being called a heretek and exiled from the imperium (if you're lucky) just to keep your ship at peak combat efficiency?
I argue that the 3rd and 4th edition Tau were still grimdark, but more subdued. Even in the beginning, if someone didn't agree with Tau expansion, the Water Caste would manipulate them until they agreed. If they didn't agree, the Fire Caste would fight them until they agreed. If that didn't work, the Tau would eradicate them. The Imperium skips steps 1 and 2.
The Imperium skips the whole "agreeing" thing. They kinda just burn/bomb/shoot/stab you for existing. Even their own people arent immune to it, it's great!
I don't even think it was subdued. The idea that you have to be evil or at least morally grey to be grimdark is missing the whole goal of grimdark. The tau were grimdark because they were morally good. The fact that the only morally good faction who genuinely wants to improve people's lives and make things better and has no contact with the warp is so infinitesimally insignificant that that is the only reason they have survived this long. Nothing and no one considers them a threat, or even worthy of their notice. That's pure grimdark gold. We didn't need "mind control" to be introduced to make them grimdark, people just decided that having good guys wasn't on-brand and frankly I feel they missed the point.
the imperium skips 1 and 2 if the people are not baseline humans (or a stable mutation of humans) other than chaos, we know they do 1 and 2 against non-chaos humans.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Unless your the Inquisition, as far they’re concern they'll skip all the steps if they feel like it even if you’re human.
@@Gibbons3457 they’re not morally good though.
“Join us or else” until they comply is not the motivation of a morally good faction.
That is there goal btw, if you don’t fall in line after they help you for a bit they’ll fight you until you’re forced to join them and once you do you’re gonna be forced to help a group that you have no say in governing nor can you ever hope to because they’re ran by a single small group, that in any other context we’d call that an oligarchy.
If you want to argue that there are obvious benefits to joining them while they’re still an oligarchy go right ahead but enough with this dumb flowery flowery “but this is what grimdark should be it’s better with the tau being good” without actually acknowledging the stuff they get up to that if it were to happen in our modern world you’d throw a hissy fit more than likely
The key to good grimdark is, characters joking, having dreams, sincerely believing in the goodness of people, or that victory is just around the corner, and for the audience to truly understand that they are soo fucking wrong. When every character is a misanthrope and knows it's all pointless the world doesn't feel real; when everyone is 100% oblivious to the nightmare hellscape that is their reality it doesn't feel real, but when people are aware the world is the worst but truly "believe" they can do their part to save it even though we know no victory is permanent, no success is without reprisal, oh oh that's just pure gold.
Just like real life.
Grimdark is just the british equivalent of dark comedy.
@@hollowman9410 boy you need to lighten up
@@WannaBe_CO I can't see how I am wrong. Every country has committed war crimes, recycling is a lie and most companies commit atrocities everyday but there is nothing you can do to stop them. Nestle uses child slavery to make chocolate, the average piece of clothing is only used 7 times before being thrown away forcing companies to use slavery to keep up with the demand.
@@hollowman9410 I am aware of that there are rather grim situations around the world, and I get how someone can view the world in a dim light when they only look at the worst of humanity, but reality is not always that dark. Remember, reality is not some hollywood movie where apparently everyone is the villian, sure countries around the world committed atrocities, but does that mean everyone of that country is that bad?
My main issue with grimdark and 40k has always been how much people hype it up just for being "GRIMDARK!" and "OH THE GALAXY SUCKS AND THERE'S ONLY WAR!" As you said, that kind of stuff is fine for a parody setting, but for something you want taken seriously, with an actual plot and such, it just doesn't work. If there really is only war and no plot progression, no hope and it really is nothing but a massive orgy of skulls and violence, then I have no reason to be invested in the story. If I know it's going nowhere, why bother following along?
Yeah, it works if its just a background for tabletop battles. It doesn't work for anything beyond that. :D
Grimdark is a setting, you tell stories in a grimdark setting.
It can work if you keep things moving in a way that is satisfying. You can have stories of triumph against the odds and heroic endeavors resulting in the vanquishing of a mighty evil, whilst also acknowledging that on a galactic scale of both space and time it's nothing. Slaying a demon and saving the entire hive city of 14 billion souls, and knowing the demon won't be able to rise for another century is perfectly plausible in 40K but we both know that's a blip in 40K time, on all counts.
I feel what 40K currently lacks is a scene of its own perspective. I want it to feel a little more like it's not just humans grimly surviving in the face of infinite war but the other races grimly eeking out an existence in the shadow of a shell of an empire. Have stories where the empire wins against one of the other factions and it to show just how absurdly futile everyone else's goals are in the face of imperial obstinance.
The plot can progress, the progression just cannot ever be towards any sense of resolution. The whole galaxy is one big bucket of crabs, if any faction ever starts doing well for itself everyone else is going to do their best to end that out of the sheer need to survive at least. Each of the factions needs to have some time in the driver's seat, the ones with galactic initiative, have things change, planets die, warp storms come and go. Whilst through it all, the empire persists.
Maybe the thing holding it back is the idea that if things advance then things improve, or that if they let things play out then the universe self destructs as everyone races to find the big red button first. As long as nothing changes the universe can persist. (huh, now that's a grimdark philosophy).
I would like if the made a separate alternative universe where things can radically change without having to worry about it affecting the Tabletop game. Sort of like when Marvel comics made the ultimate universe where they can do more radical things like say kill off Spider-man for 100% good and explore to possibilities of it, and of course the “real” Spider-man in the normal marvel universe can still be alive and well without the ulitmates version affecting anything, so the ultimate version can remain it's own thing without having to restore the status quo. It be the best of both worlds, you can do things radically different and not need to worry about destroying your setting and game.
@@brandonlyon730 they could easily make 40k have 2 lore sources, codex’s and such to explain faction rules and light lore to introduce models, weapons, etc, and a separate setting that’s actually designed to be s functional story, both based on the same universe, but not actually connected. That way you could go all the way to the end times in the lore setting, but have the table top setting keep that “nothing changes or progresses” vibe that Keeps the wars from ever stopping.
Table top is at its core a game, and those that prefer to play it over the lore aren’t really going to mind having their own, unassailable setting where shit writing can’t ruin their factions viability, and lore fans like myself can have fully fleshed out stories that make sense that don’t handicap themselves in order to perpetuate the table top game.
That’s always been my biggest problem with 40k, that the lore being so tightly bound to the game it takes away from the vast potential of the setting, and often results in really lazy writing that takes away from both aspects of the lore
Originally it was meant to be a parody, just one big joke. It’s just that the fans take the lore way too seriously
my argument for the tau is and always has been that the most horrific thing in life is the innocent facing the horrors of reality. I think the tau fit this role pretty well. They have hope, ingenuity, progress, and have no idea that the second they pose a major inconvenience for any of the older factions, they are fucked beyond belief. It's that truly gut-wrenching feeling of a kid walking out of his hut on some backwater world to find his entire village has been slaughtered and he and all of his friends will be sold into slavery
Agreed, it’s like they’ve worked for centuries, developing tech and expanding territory, unknowing that the only reason they still exist is because everyone is too lazy to go over them and wipe them out
@@boomboone47 It's not even laziness. It's that they are so insignificant and just isolated enough that no one has the time to even care about them. They have Tyranids to survive, chaos cults to root out, orc waaarghs to fight, and don't even get me started on the humans no matter how many any faction destroys they persist, compared to them the tau are a curiosity at best. Literally, no faction has a reason to care about the Tau as they are.
grots powerin ork ships = gud
litul 'umiez powerin big 'umie ships = no gud
heh orks is da strongest
This guy gets it
Do ye mean powerin' by pedaling boss?
Or makin the grots livin ammou?
@@eneaceribelli8023 wut do u mean 'or' ?
@@Punkomatic91 Yer the smartest, boss!
OI MEKBOY, WE NEED GROT PROPEL, PRORE, PRAPELL!!
ZOG IT!
WE NEED GROT PEDALIN POWERED DAKKA! THE ONE DAT GOEZ BOOM
'EY YOU ZOGGIN GIT WHAT YOU WHISPERING ABOUT?
'COURSE ORKZ IS DA STRONGEST
WE ALSO DA STOMPIEST
WIF DA SHOOTIEST GUNZ & KILLIER TANKZ CUZ ORKZEZ ARE DA BESTEST!!!
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Sometimes I forget how criminally underrated this channel is. More people need to witness your high quality low quality shitposts!
I feel like krieg is in a great place of grim dark DEPENDING ON HOW YOU VIEW THEM. Warhammer is the only setting where you and I can have completely different ideas about what a faction inherently is
For instance I view Krieg as people born to become soldiers with that generally being their life purpose to die in battle with service to the imperium. They don’t waste their lives they try to use their very lives as currency against an enemy. It is the krieg commissrs job to determine how many lives for each assault or battle
But some people believe. HURR HURR KRIEG WITH SHOVEL MARCH TO KHORNSTE BERSURKERRUR BECAUSE THEY DINT CARE TO DIE
I like that interpretation the most for current Warhammer. 30 years ago the “MARCH INTO LANDMINES FOR THE EMPEROR AND FOR FUNSIES” interpretation probably would’ve been best but for modern 40K the Kriegsmen being pragmatic and uncaring about losses but not brain dead fits the grimdark level of the current setting perfectly.
Didnt Lokan also say in Horus Rising that he considers himself and all space marines tools for the primarch and the emperor, not as (altered) human beings?
@@1who4me the emperor literally calls guilliman “ my most valuable tool” and basically made guilliman go into an existential crisis
Wassup my fellow Astra memecus legionnaire
God yeah Krieg fans are so cringe I hate it. Like yeah a Krieg soldier would "totally" win against an heavily armored khorne cultist with a chainsaw sword *vomits*
B-But if my OC chara- I mean homebrew Chaos Warrior doesn't step on the skulls of newborns every time he walks, what's the point?
Balance it out with another homebrew who saves crippled orphan puppies with every breath
@@pancreasnowork9939 And then make it grimdark by making that guy Nurglite so his breath exterminates everything in the 100 mile radius.
The bigger issue with manual loading vs a system is, you gotta house the crew, they need space to sleep, and that space could be more guns or more ammo
Grimdark can be fun and all, but nobledark is just better overall. Grimdark that transforms into nobledark is also great. A setting without hope is a setting without real stakes and tension. If the End Times had good writing, then the Old World would still be around. There would be a climactic battle where Karl Franz and his allies just barely manage to defeat the forces of Chaos. A bunch of characters die dramatically in the process. The Old World remains a dark and dangerous place to live, but around half of the major Chaos characters and their armies just got killed by the Ordertide. The struggle continues, but the worst is behind them. Miss me with all the perpetual doom and gloom, GW. The best stories are about punching doom in the face, taking its lunch money, and saving the day. Chaos can try all they want, but they can't beat the Ordertide of chads and stacys hellbent on tearing them a new one. The world is never doomed when there's guys like Gotrek and Felix around.
I agree - I think Grimdark is good for the factions as a whole but without a little bit of bright in their it's just not that fun. Unless we're talking older Warhammer but that was a lot more memey than it is nowadays.
Also Gotrek and Felix > literally any Primarch. I will not be taking any dissent.
I feel nobledark can also be a very slippery slope to becoming just generic fantasy/sci fi.
I disagree. I get where you are coming from and noble dark can make some good and satisfying stories, but I don’t think it is inherently better. The hopelessness of grim dark can make some really compelling stories. The struggle against inevitable defeat is not invalidated by that defeat. The hero’s fight to hold back the tide because it is the right thing to do can be all the more compelling because they do it not in the hope of ultimate victory but because it is the right thing to do and it drives home just how valuable each moment their struggle buys because of their sacrifice, while moments of nobility stand out like gems against the darkness the are surrounded by.
It seems to me that good grim dark deals with inevitably. After all, we all die eventually no mater what we do, but that does not make the struggle for survival pointless
@@naghogodfrank I can see that. After all, we struggle against death and oblivion every day of our lives. In the end, the fight is always lost, but it doesn't mean it was for nothing.
@@naghogodfrank I think both are at their best when intermixed, when they make the setting unpredictable but logical. Have a grimdark setting in which sometimes nobledark events happen (Emperor's victory over Horus, "Resurrection" of Guilliman etc.) but also Grimdark events happen (Emperor's internment to the Goldenthrone, Destruction of Cadia etc.) What I really hope for is creation of new characters and death of others (looking at you Abaddon, horrible writing in HH series apart from Horus rising) and CHANGE, change is needed. (T'au back on the road to a more nobledark heading, Uplifting of Eldar but in somewhat sinister manner etc.)
The worst grimderp I ever read was in Graham McNeil's "Priests of Mars", in which a huge force of Cadian Guard were attached to an explorator fleet. On board the Ark Mechanicus flagship is a training room large enough to build entire cities, which the Cadians and skitarii used to run joint live-fire training exercises. The skitarii marshal and Cadian colonel discuss the casualties afterward, remarking that the average fatality rate of 18.75% suffered by their forces during the exercise was "better than expected" and "minimal" for taking such a large city. The colonel then remarks "We'll see if we can't get it down to fifteen" by the time they reached their destination.
I read this and couldn't parse how the heck he expected to have any forces left by then if every war game killed almost a fifth of his men. Grimdark training would be 20% crippling injury rate that had to be fixed with basic augmetics afterward to keep the men in fighting shape. 20% fatality rate is just stupidly wasteful, and it was in an otherwise seriously-written story.
The definition of casualty is “a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action”. Meaning that 18% of his troops were taken out of combat one way or another. Not necessarily killed.
@@TheFriendless1It's Warhammer 40k, there ain't no way they meant "casualities" in any other way than dead.
It's usually okay for sub-factions to be a bit brighter (Marines: Salamanders/Guilliman, Tau: Farsight Enclaves), it just can't be the WHOLE faction, or they become the default good guys (which isn't a narrative problem UNLESS you want to retain maximum grimdark).
I may be branded a heretic for this, but there are already good guys in Warhammer 40k. Not by other IP's standards, but by the standards of Warhammer, there are good and bad guys. When you have Chaos, Tyrannids, and Orks who want to destroy everything for fun, they are bad guys. Whether you judge order vs chaos, or life vs death, they are bad on both counts. And anyone who fights them is some kind of good guy, even if they don't fit in the real world. It's that simple.
Weirdly, I find the enclaves not grimdark enough, while the empire as a whole is too grimdark. The ethereals, specifically Aun'va, are just so overwhelmingly evil that they make the faction feel stupid, despite the fact that they are supposed to be the most grounded faction. On the other hand, Farsight is presented as being absurdly good at all times, never being shown to have any moral complexity.
A tremendous amount of the lore for how logistics and ammunition "work" in 40k are stupid as all hell.
Servitors carrying radioactive caskets into reactors to just fucking die and fall apart at the very end of this humongous walkway that doesn't need to be nearly as involved as it is.
Titans being only a few dozen meters in height by official lore but artistic depictions rendering them at hundreds of meters tall. Titans in general, honestly, having the ammunition they do with the extraordinarily limited physical space they have for their ballistic weapons.
Star ships having guns that are loaded by people rather than by any automated system, when even WWII battleships with shells the size of a normal man weighed upwards of 800 pounds?
40k lore can be amazing. It can be fantastic, even. My personal favorites being the Adeptus Mechanicus books, but it can get repetitive and infuriatingly nonsensical.
I mean that’s your opinion, but if you dislike that kind of thing then you should consider a different hobby. Things are stupid because that’s literally part of the world building. Yes it’s all horribly inefficient, that’s the point.
@@benbauer1257Wrong
Grimdark is at its best when it's used to make even the most minor noble acts take the spotlight. It's that contrast where in a vast darkness, even a small light makes an impact.
Personally I draw the line at too much grimdark at when there’s no hope at all. If there was no hope for the imperium just have the whole thing commit mass suicide and use the psychic feedback of the event to kill the chaos gods who cares life wasn’t worth living anyway. A little glimmer of hope gives people a reason to keep fighting impossible odds instead of just surviving ten more minutes. A story with no good guys and no chance of a satisfying ending is boring. 40k gets really tiresome after awhile when any time they shake things up it’s always just more of the same.
Grim: A single great good or great evil can't change the status quo of the setting or stop the girthy weight of its momentum (ex. OG Gundam or Sandman).
Dark: Outlook of the setting is pessimistic, people are depicted as fundamentally selfish or at least uncaring, and the extent to which someone can be considered "good" is often inversely proportional to their agency/power (ie Berserk and Sin City).
Something something it's faster to be loaded manually then with a pulley system so it's worth the death rate cuz saving one second is a difference between life and death
I’m gonna
@@pancreasnowork9939 Block me coward
@@spin6668 bro don’t call my bluff the line’s out of service I haven’t paid the phone bill in months
@@pancreasnowork9939 Block or be knowledgeable bombed your choice, I will now start copy pasting my arugment for why it makes sense from a 2004 arugment I had on an old Warhammer IRC chat
According to the Rouge Trader: Core Rulebook 1989 pg. 208 Macro cannons are defined as being 1/931
The irony of this comment feels like something that would fit into Rogue Trader.
I think the best example of grimdark done right is Berserk.
That's something I agree with on a fundamental level.
I haven't even touched Berserk and I know you're probably right.
This is pretty fair i'd say for the most part.
Berserk is "grimdark" (that term if fucking stupid) because it's logical for the setting to be that way. there are hopeful moments and signs of good things in the world because without it then there wouldn't be any reason to give a damn about the story. It's not dark because it has to be its dark because thats what the world they live in is
Yeah berserk is actually an incredibly sentimental and caring series. Even the worst villain have a lot of tragedy to them and are sympathetic in a lot of ways. It’s able to get away with being so dark because it’s always couched in this sense understandableness to it all.
Id argue it's more of a dark fantasy there's at least some hope left
refueling a ship was silly too imo. Send someone in to replace the .. ah.. what was it? .. just call it fuelcell. While he replace it, he's burning to death by the heat.
Like with the reloading.. I mean the imperium has a lot of people to burn through, yes, but the amount of (unnessacery) deaths would mean the imperium would decline. It still need at least 16 years until a newborn human can put to work..
plus you have to burn fuel to transport them into space to be in the position to refuel a cruiser/etc. i can believe human lives might be cheap if there are enough hive cities, but that doesn't mean transporting them to the location you are useing them is cheap.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 That's a very good point
well maybe that is the reason the imperium is actualy declining,
Grimdark is a feeling the story tries to capture.
Having mumbers of death so high and pages on pages describing how nameless hundreds died while the writers forget what they were even writing about is just cringe.
I honestly like the Tau as actual good guys. I mean what's darker than the only good guys surviving not because of superior tactics or weapons, but because they're so insignificant that no one has bothered to kill them yet.
A single hive world contains more humans than there are Tau in the galaxy, not to mention the fact that the Tau are routinely blind sided by how fucked up and powerful everything else is. Like when they were convinced they killed Slanesh and the Emperor, because they failed to grasp that these were literal gods.
To my mind, this suggests that any large scale attack from just about any other faction or subfaction stands a decent chance of wiping the Tau out entirely. Especially given the Tau don't have any world ending superweapons, and pretty much everyone else does.
I think Orks are the last line of defense against "too much". They must be protected at all costs.
I'm so glad someone else is as bothered by the idiotic loading system of Imperial ship weapons!
Fuck it could still be grimdark with some mechanical system and large crews like something out of that Memories Cannonfodder anime.
It's one of the things I love about the Overlord (Ainz Ool Gown) series, how it balances the absolute grim terror of fighting (or trying to maintain independence) against a power too great to reason with, while that same power is just a bumbling paranoid everyman that fumbles his way into conquering half the world because his minions missundertood him and he's too awkward to disapoint them now. All that just by shifting perspectives a little, from one of the allmighty warriors of death to the weak and feeble people thet have to fight them.
There needs to be a glimmer of hope, without that it’s just nihilism which is buttfuck boring
I know it's not entirely transitive, but when I think of the total grimdark "there is no hope" stuff, I'm reminded of Professor Tolkien and his letter on why he stopped writing his sequel to LotR and how writing something that dark and depressing was "not worth doing."
If there isn't hope for something better, why should we stick around and continue to care?
I think the imperium actually has good motivation either current or founding:
Current: don’t get killed and or eaten by the galaxy full of horrors that are actively trying to wipe out, mind control, or convert to their horror cult all of humanity
Founding goal: reunite all of man kind in to an enlightened empire of knowledge, progress and reason. (Plus all the stuff n current imperium’s motivation)
The methods and rampant corruption are where the imperium gets all grim dark.
Good Grimdark takes itself serious:
Both sides have clear motivations that justify ( to them) what they do.
Both sides behave in accordance to these motivations and if they don t, then it needs to be explained thorougly.
Both sides struggle, take clear casulties and sacrifice much to achieve their goals
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don t.
The wider setting interacts in a consistent manner with both sides and may nullify their struggle through larger events.
Grimdark is when you struggle, sacrifice, fight to the last and beyond and it´s still not enough because factors outside your control are against you, maybe just by a freak coincidence.
That everything that is portryed as good and noble is not an guarantie for anything and the characters might not even know it.
That the reader is knows that things are about to go wrong through his view, yet is helpless because the characters couldn t possibly know from their position in the setting.
Honestly been a warhammer fan for over 10 years and can honestly say both lore states of 40k and AOS are my favorite atm. They are still horrificaly fucked but there's enough stuff to actually care about that when things go horrible you care about them instead of going "ohh just another grim thing hehe". AOS book about lumineth and them literally coming back to their home after a victory vs a small band to see their entire hometown burned into nothingness is a perfect example. You get that "ye we kicked their ass" but then the grim settings kicks in and you realize how much they actually lost.
The greater good is actually very beneficial to it's allies ! Kroot got protection and the world back, and human colonies got better industry technology and weapons, better agriculture and so on, and what they had to do is help the Tau when needed ! Basically, the tau help you and, in return, you help them, this is he relation you have with them !
actually the tau only have better tech and weapons in some places. the imperium actually has better agriculture canonically on most worlds.
I think it's neat if some Imperium planets work together in secret, not as close ally but in a give-and-take sort of ways. Tau guns would probably be pretty useful for a planet's military, especially in a world of overly complicated bureaucracy with most if not all tech is monopolized by a group of tech-fetishist with somewhat questionable sense of loyal, not to mention all the ork and eldar raids in the world.
@@matthiuskoenig3378
imperial agri-worlds are more efficient, sure, but the actual tech on them is often medieval to modern age, and the ones with futuristic technology are typically just greener forge worlds that produce plants instead of guns
I think warhammer fantasy handles grimdark far better over all. its dark and has hopelessness but there are aspects of the world worth actually fighting for and the reasons for its grimdark aspects are more often then not understandable.
while many times in 40k when it comes to story there is very little reason to even care about most events because the outcome is destined to be the same and nothing really matters in a setting so large
The best form of Grimdark would be the one where there is hope amidst the storm. An example would be the TMNT 2003 cartoon episode "The Same as it Never Was", an episode where it starts off with the Shredder having successfully conquered Earth and several other planets, with the people being worked to death in Shredder's labor camps as Shredder's robot minions eradicate all resistance worldwide. You get to live this dark future for about half an hour until the turtles get their asses in gear and mount one final assault against the Shredder-which gets most of them killed. Shredder does die, but only after the other characters bite it. The final shot shows a new hope as without Shredder, human society could rebuild, and we see a sunrise for the first time in this bleak world.
It was short, sweet, and it didn't overstay its welcome, which is the opposite of 40K grimdark where they linger on it for too long, yet the main guys all have plot armor so the grimdark atmosphere doesn't matter; at that point, it's just window dressing, because there's no way in hell Rowboat Girlyman or the top guys are going to die. Cadia fell, whoop-dee-doo, there's a million more worlds in the Imperium where that came from, so it's not like that's going to cause a permanent mark.
I always considered the most needlessly grimdark thing to be a tie between the entire existence of the Daemonculaba or The since retconned Bloodtide incident
I feel the same way about the gellar field retcon as you do about the cannons.
Could you say more ? (I would like to hear about the differences)
@@algirdas25pl31 Basically some fool writers over at GW tried to retcon all gellar fields to run on sedated psykers tormented nightmares (the tormenting of them to death is totally required guys!) when this makes absolutely no sense. If the writers had said "Here is a horrible way to make Gellar Fields that some folks are using." that would have been fine, even claiming that the methods to make less stupiddark Gellar Field generators are mostly lost and this is the truth of the current times replacement would have been tolerable. But humanity had gellar fields WELL before they had any knowledge of human psykers existing, so it makes no goddamn sense to try and retcon that. Plus, the logistics of it simply cause more narrative/setting problems than it solves. Essentially, if the writers had said 'this ship' or 'ships made here' or 'this model of Gellar Field Generator' worked that way? No issue. Heck, uncovering that could be the big plot twist of a good Inquisition/Dark Heresy storyline... but the Imperium could not function as written everywhere in the lore if that was the only way to do it, or even the most common way.
@@algirdas25pl31 Not sure if you got the answer because RUclips says that 2 people answered but I only see your post. But just in case. The gellar field retcon was quite one of the most stupidest retcons I have seen and it only exists to tickle that " Uhh thats grimdark" box.
Basically instead of using machinery to shield yourself from the warp, ships use comatose psykers whose dreams can somehow create a bubble of reality inside the warp. There was even a version where the psyker dies on every warp jump but I think it has been retconned again because this is even more stupid. 1000 psykers a day to feed the astronomicon gets mentioned, because how important this is but needing a psyker as a gellar fiel generator doesn't? Its just stupid and one of the things I put into the grimderp category, like the cannon reloading stuff.
Both would be great for a purely satirical setting and memes, but since Warhammer has grown the setting itself went into the direction of taking itself more and more serious and to do that thing must make sense for the universe.
I find it difficult for me to really put my heart into a deeply Grimdark setting because...well why am I even bothering? I can't engage properly if no one's relatable and I'm not going to care if the only relatable ones are doomed and I'm just waiting out the inevitable. I need to know that it's at least theoretically possible for the relative good guys to succeed, and at the very least for victory to occur at all for anyone. I like the Tau because despite how massively outnumbered and gunned they are, they show at least the possibility that things could be better. I think the best Grimdark is the one that could hypothetically not be Grimdark, because then you have to stick around to see what happens.
By your definition the present in actual life is very Grimdark.
Warhammer Fantasy (not Age of Shitmar) had the perfect ballance of grimdark, hope, and quaintness, that made for a perfect setting.
99% of humans humans in 40k will never even see natural sunlight, never smell fresh air, and be brutally and needlessly killed while nobody cares because it happens every day.
At least in fantasy your guys will have seen a few summers and winters, have tasted real food and breathed fresh air. At least they will have been happy Once in their lives.
I think if most of us saw a human from the 40k universe, we would think they were a litteral zombie.
Pale and withered, malnourished, stinking and shuffeling around hunched over and lethargic.
Remember that story when the Tau get their first taste of a (relatively normal by galactic standards) shipboard daemon incursion? That made them start reducing auxiliaries btw.
The bit about the lack of autoloaders and how they need hundreds of slaves per gun makes even less sense when you consider they clearly have the technology to mass produce vehicles like chimeras/leman russes/etc by the hundreds of thousands, so you’d think that they’d just repurpose similar vehicle chassises as forklifts to get things done more efficiently
When you realize that even the Tau and the Salamanders would be villains in most sci fi settings:
My main issue with the fixation on "grimdark" is that it is hard to be invested in a story or characters if ultimate defeat is a foregone conclusion. There can be substantial victories, but it has to be earned by dealing with hard challenges along the way. This is why major accomplishments feel so awesome in Warhammer, because the dangers and risk stacked against one makes eventual success a mighty feat.
I agree but I will always stick with Farsight because punching the stupid Bugs and Mushrooms and slicing them to bits inside a mech suit while being practically the closest thing to a Ronin in 40k is just badass to me
This is why Ciaphas Cain is my absolute favorite character in 40k. The novels are a perfect blend between funny and grim, Ciaphas and his bullshitting his hole of lies even deeper is always great for a big grin, Jergen is bro-tier, Amberly both draws me in and scares the crap out of me, and frankly the books are just good old fashioned F-U-N. Something I feel is really lacking in the majority of 40k.
Man why isn’t this channel bigger , I fucking love this content
I enjoy where I’m at, it’s a lot easier to respond to comments and talk with others at this level. It’d be awesome to blow up again though, just gotta get another video like the one of mine that went wild.
And thanks for the kind words, it’s appreciated!
I think “Nobledark” is my favorite of the offshoots/levels of Grimdark. Most of the “Gaunt’s Ghosts” books fit this definition IMO. Like, we’re surrounded by horror and there’s very little chance that what we do here will change the sheer amount of “fucked” that everything is, but there’s still *some* hope and God-Emperor damn it, we won’t sink to the level of those Chaos-loving bastards! We might all be doomed, but defiance in the face of doom is what makes us *human!!!*
That sort of thing. Long story short, I like the kind of story where everything’s shit, but people don’t accept that it *always* has to be that way and at least *try* to fight back against the darkness.
Never like the grimmdark of 40K, it's really just grimderp, that why I always prefer Fantasy.
Also I'm tired of the Chaos God to be the ultimate evil, I would prefer that other evil faction to be equally dangerous or more redical that the order faction can win against the chaos, but in their righteousness become equally bad has the opposite faction who in contraste become the protagonist.
Well Chaos kind of fills that role, they provide "freedom" (everyone is a pawn but Chaos pawns tend to have more leeway) and possibly satisfaction for you. There is also the underlying concept of truth that was especially prevalent in HH-series in which Chaos represented a truth of the universe and the Imperium spread a lie of it.
I agree that they should make Chaos into more shades of grey but that would be hard to make interesting in a setting of such contrasting factions.
Perhaps they could start fleshing out the Great crusade period in which they faced a lot of different kinds of civilizations some "corrupt" (A world where a Tzeentchian cult freed the world from a tyrant and created a democracy or something like that) in differing degrees.
@@castor3020 "I agree that they should make Chaos into more shades of grey but that would be hard to make interesting in a setting of such contrasting factions"
On the contrary, it would make thing interesting.
Chaos just being an uber-version of Sauron is pretty lame, especially since they are supposed to be also feed by positive emotion.
GW should go back in earlier edition when they just copy Michael Moorcock work and make two opposing pantheon, one prepresenting Order feed by positiv energy and Chaos by negative one.
But that just an idea.
Well on the last point, that was supposed to be the imperium, but marketing fucked that up.
Tbh in Fantasy, i would like to like the Dark Elves, but they are displayed so edgy and one dimensional to a point where i question how their society even survived, being elves and all, backstabbing pieces of ass and constantly massacering each other, how did they not die out yet? They would be the prime example of a civilization so hedonistic it would self-destruct or grow so weak that they'd be overran by other forces due to the infighting and instability.
@@DontKnow-hr5my They wanted to parody the American society and it's pretty accurate.
This video earned you a sub man . I love your mix of humor and seriousness
I think that lore tidbit about the slaves and rounds is more fitting for chaos instead of the imperium. Chaos marines equipment is often old and broken and there isn’t a lot of resources to repair them and depending on the chaos faction the agony the slaves feel could empower their god. They could also use people from imperial worlds they’ve raided as slaves to do this.
While not fully related I'd like if there were more positive depictions of Chaos and joining it, maybe a more casual religious overlook on in, I just think it would make Chaos more interesting and also add to the grim nature of the imperium by showing that their cruel way of life isn't the only way of life
I feel Warhammer 40k is at is best when the general setting is hopeless but the individual still have hopes and dreams. A lot of character in Dan Abnets inquisitor series and even Caiphas Cain have, at the end of the day zero impact on the setting as a whole ( your destroyed the Glore, good on you have 10 000 other heretical family's, you saved Perlea from orcs big deal for every other world eaten by the cicatrix maledictum) but we can get attached to the protagonist and their wants and aspiration, we can agree or disgree on where their individual line is even if the empire doesn't have one.
I feel the grimdark setting fails when they try to apply the level of Absolut 24/7 misery to every single character. It's not that it's not dark... it's just boring at that point.
That torpedo barrage at 8:00 was so pleasant to watch
My biggest problem with grimdaek series is that they dont know how to make a good story
Berserk is probably one of the most famous grimdark story's over there
Because why?
Because is fucking funny and heart harm
The eclipse would NEVER have a fragment of the impact if we dont see Guts loving the band of the Hawke and Casca, or seeing the relationship with Griffith
Grimdark hits hard when is accompanied with hope, because someone being miserable 100% of the time is kinda boring
But someone being miserable after finding happiness?
THAT is completely shattering
The Last of Us is kinda of grimdark, the world dont have a cure
The government is collapsing
Raiders all over the place
But what is the greatest moment?
Is not some gruesome scene
Is a simple
"I promise"
I think the perfect balance is exactly where ever you want it to be. If you like Warhammer because it is hopeless then make that your cannon, if you like the more sterically side of it like Rouge Trader then go with that. Hell you can even decide how grimdark it is based on your mood that day.
Well, I've been writing a multi-crossover fanfiction where terrible things happen like a Witch Hunter burning down a village and piling the bodies of the villagers like animals and a Slaangor tasting the flesh of young girls like a demented carnoisseur only for said characters to get their comeuppance for example: the Witch Hunter had his face blown off by Ash's Boom-stick and the Slaangor was cut in half by Guts' sword, Dragonslayer.
why tho?
@@Punkomatic91 why what?
This video taught me my new favorite 40k lore fact: the ships load the shells manually
it’s never too much
To me grimdark needs the smallest glimmer if hope even if it's folly to be truly effective. Hell you could go all out with good guys slowly losing their shit in pursuit of it like if the Tau slowly started doing their fucked up shit while still in pursuit of the greater good for the universe. rouge Space Marine chapters who have had enough with the bullshit of the imperiom and dedicated them self purely to a cause. You have some fun interesting stories with some stuff to think about there.
"Space Marine chapters who have had enough with the bullshit of the imperiom and dedicated them self purely to a cause"
basically how chaos space marines became a thing. Or so the emperor would say.....for anything else is blasphemy.
Though I did not feel emotionally disturbed by the Daemonculaba, I certainly do think it's quite TMI. No one really needs to know in depth on how some chaos marines are made, and giving the tagline that they were made by "unspeakable horrific actions" is quite enough, and gets the point across.
The main point of a grimdark setting is that the line between good and evil is so blurred to the point of it becoming meaningless. Warhammer is genuinely a grimdark setting, thus I'm constantly puzzled by its fans still viewing the Imperium as the good guys and the Chaos Gods as the bad guys. The Chaos Gods, while not technically created by humans, were very much empowered by them, or more precisely by all the evil deeds of humanity. Deeds that happened naturally, not due to the Chaos Gods' interference, that came later once they actually became powerful and than wanted even more power. In essence the Chaos Gods are simply the universe's(or settings' if you prefer) reaction to the evil deeds of humanity(and the other races too, but the setting is so human focused so mostly the humans, though there's always Slaanesh...). Yes the Chaos Gods do evil things, but than so does the Imperium, so what makes one the good guys and one the bad guys? If anything the Emperor stands for order whereas the Chaos Gods stand for well, chaos. However neither order nor chaos are inherently good or evil. DND actually got this right with its alignment system differentiating between order and chaos and good and evil, so you can have chaotic good and lawful evil characters for example.
I'd argue that the fact that most Warhammer fans completely disagree with my notion above suggests that the Warhammer universe is way too grimdark to the point of its audience becoming completely desensitized to it. After all death, violence, etc, need to actually have some meaning in order to be relevant, and for the setting to be taken seriously. When billions of people die on a daily basis in the universe, and not from natural causes mind you. Than there's an entire race: Drukkari as well as 1 of the Chaos Gods: Slaanesh, who commit horrendous acts of torture and pain in all its many forms, to millions if not billions of people on a daily basis as well than all this death and violence loses its meaning. It's just another day in the Warhammer 40k universe. I'm not saying these deaths shouldn't happen or anything, as it's part of the grimdark setting after all, but as you correctly said in your video it's all about context. We don't get enough context for the impact these deaths have, both from the personal level: on the families and friends of the deceased as well as the global level: on entire planets who lost a large portion of their fighting population in a single battle/raid/whatever. Thus the grimdark setting of Warhammer 40k loses a lot of its edge because it all meshes together and becomes ultimately meaningless.
The search history though!
total legend
XD
The most important thing to consider is that while the characters might be immoral (let's be honest, 40k is not "morally ambiguous"), the author needs to hint that they themselves know right from wrong.
Because, again, 40k goes too far looking for the "good guys" in the setting full of evil - and ends up justifying genocides and glorifying what they previously firmly established as fascism.
If you talk about Gitrek and Felix the thing that makes them Grimdark is the toll the upbeat adventures take on them. Felix finishes the series an old man, nothing in his life but a brief and violent future. By juxtaposing what were more hopeful stories with the descent in darkness tatt the characters experience it makes it a more effective story telling device as opposed to sad boys in power armour are sad because we need some edge.
I've only gotten into WH40K, and part of the reason is how SUPER OVER THE TOP it is. I've only just found your channel and I LOVE IT. (The google search in this video killed me.)
My favorite moments in book are when something becomes so over the top that it breaks and I end up laughing about it. What I don’t like are “Popular Characters” literally achieving and performing the impossible in a regular bases.
I personally prefer my Grimdark to have a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. Yeah shit is terrible now and things can come all crashing down, but do the right things and hope and a better tomorrow can happen. More of a earn your happy ending type of thing I suppose.
I think the funniest thing is that grimdark was only imposed onto fantasy in 6e. It was not originally intended to be a grimdark setting. It's fine regardless of how grimdark it is.
About three minutes into this, I realized he’s really just talking about life on earth and I chose to interpret the rest of the video in that way.
I think the big draw of grimdark is that, while it is nothing but pure terror in-universe, to the audiences, it's almost silly. To us, Orks are just big, green football hooligans and not unstoppable murder machines that can never be truly extinguished.
Just found this channel, really awesome video. Since everyone else is doing it, guess il give my 2cents on grimdark too.
One of my favorite series of all time is Berserk. It's extremely dark, even by 40k standards. There is little, is any hope for a better tomorrow. Yet, Guts keeps moving forward, enduring all of the horrifying bullshit the Berserk universe has to offer, and with great struggle is slowly but surely coming out on top. The brutality of his circumstances only serve to make his accomplishments all that brighter.
The same concept for grimdark goes for 40k. As a few have pointed out, grimdark without any hope is just boring. Like, why continue right? But with a little hope, even just the tiniest sliver of it, there is still a reason to keep fighting. It also means that when the good guys eventually win, victory will be all that more sweet. For example, the return of the emperor in TTS khaines gate was fucking awesome. No one said "Lol, this too shitty and noblebright, Bruva ur such a baby."
No, everyone said, "For the first time in 10 thousand FUCKING years, there is some measure of hope for galaxy. About fucking time"
In short, grimdark, at least in regards to 40k, is a means to end. It should be used as a tool to darker everything so that when light eventually shines through, it is all that more bright.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk
Who knows, maybe TTS was the kick in the ass that proved to GW that they could and SHOULD move the setting forward.
@@castor3020 Pity GW didn't do a better job with it.
Examples of 'better' to me: Primaris is an upgrade process for existing marines along with stashes of geneseed, wargear and supplies, Eldar get their God of the Dead but it still needs to drain other craftworlds infinity circuts to be ready to confront Slaneesh, Tau get FTL to expand their empire but it relies on some member race who is gaining a lot of power as a result, Primarch's start to return in response to Cadia falling in defiance, etc.
People feeding shells manually would work but still be very inefficient in zero gravity.
Counterpoint: Grimdark deez nuts
So sad that Sigmar died of bofa
@@pancreasnowork9939 Whos Sigmar?
@@nicolaijohnsrudbjrnsen5191 😈
@@nicolaijohnsrudbjrnsen5191 Simgar ball
Pauses video - fills glass at start... 2 mins in and I have heartburn. Too grimdark.
Even gotrek and felix have some novels that are more grim than others look at orcslayer for example
God that one was so fucking depressing by the end
Grimderp is how they refuel the warp drives. Its a funeral everytime.
👏😁
I really agree with you about the silly battleship weapon's mechanism.
It just feels too stupid.
Having found this channel, I subscribed after two videos. Also based ratchet and clank ost.
This is a great dissertation. You have my praise, if it is worth something for you XD
thank for the video
What we really need more of: Dakka, all of it!
I just like being the good guys. I don't think I have to justify it. I can have my Star Trekky moral crusaders and not make even a dent in the horrific crap Chaos is doing everywhere.
Put the Tau in Star Wars, and at most, they'll just be a side villain that works with the good guys. Especially the Rebel Alliance and the Jedi. Jedi in the New Republic can get hilariously dark it's funny that they stay on the Light Side. And given that the Tau don't have hyperspace or the firepower of the Imperial Navy, they'll probably just end up being a side race that Thrawn, Tarkin, or Vader annihilated in their spare time. Shit, I don't even see them winning against the KOTOR-era Sith Empire, much less the Galactic Empire which had more advanced firepower and 12-70 million worlds.
Grimdark goes too far when
A) It can't justify its existence
B) Just thinking about its implications for two seconds makes it obvious it isn't sustainable
B.1) Related to the above, in order to avoid breaking the setting, it has to be changed and retconned constantly (the best example from WH40K in my opinion are the Tyranids, which as they were presented are an unstoppable endgame scenario, so they need to be nerfed almost to the point of making their enemies absurdly lucky or making them borderline dysfunctional, on top of constantly pushing back the impending doom of the galaxy)
C) Perhaps the most important one, regardless of how well justified or how well it fits the setting, it doesn't provide material for interesting stories, meaning it doesn't make narrative sense.
Also, the stagnant nature of grimdark universes doesn't mean everything has its evil factor turned to 11. Vampire counts and Tomb Kings in Warhammer fantasy for example had the overall evil of bloodsucking undead creatures of the night and skeletal lich kings turned **DOWN** to make them viable as civilizations. If vampires couldn't win, but couldn't be exterminated, then there had to be a way to make them sustainable, thus we have Vlad von Carstein, an example of a vampire lord who understood the need to actually maintain a constant population of living humans under his rule, meaning vampires had to learn to rule, meaning they had to account for peasant rebellions, meaning they had to somehow maintain the favor of their subjects. Add the fact that Sylvania isn't an independent state, but part of the Empire and this opens up a whole universe of narrative possibilities.
That one scene "Angels of Death-Origins: Kill Command" where they're loading the torpedo's. For the longest time I thought they were only doing that since the entire ships systems were down. I couldn't, and still can't fathom, the Imperium with Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, all this advance technology still needing to have people manually load torpedo's and batteries for their ship. It really does lower the grimdark too much. How are we suppose to feel sympathy for anyone that dies in battle when that many people have died by traveling to a destination.
Whats the music playing during the conclusion part? Sounds like Age of Wonders?
Warhammer: Not enough nudity
Slaansh approved
The Mechanicus uses autoloaders in their ships, but they are at a severe disadvantage if boarded since enemy forces can easily sabotage lightly defended machinery, also yea the imperial navy uses assisted loading mechanisms, but it's just simpler and easier to have a few hundred people hoist a shell the last few meters into the breach than an over complicated machine that might break during battle. Warhammer void combat is really a good deal more realistic than anything in more fanciful stuff starting with Star, although Halo has it beat.
the Google search history bit was gold
KHORN DEMANDS BLOOD
7:05 Someone pointed that it was to prevent the ship's machine spirit to have any control on the big gunz, to prevent it from refusing to bomb innocents civillians or shooting friendlies. But yeah, that thing is mostly dumb
I defined grimdark as a literary movement emphasizing the absence of good or progress in the world that was especially present in fantasy in the late-70's or 80's and was only relatively recently supplanted.
What game is that at 7:00?
Looks like battlefleet Gothic armada 2
@@richardnixon2445 thank you.
As other people have pointed out, early Tau worked because they were the only good faction in a setting jam packed with factions and characters who were outright evil.
They were a very small light in the darkness that could be extinguished at any time if other races decided that they were now worth the trouble.
New Tau are yet another villanous faction in a setting filled with villanous factions.
On the flip side, old Necrons were slaves to the C'tan and wanted nothing more than to kill everyone else in the name of their Gods.
Newcrons leave me wondering if Games Workshop wants me to root for the unstoppable killer robots in their quest to reclaim what rightfully belonged to their empire.
Seriously GW, do you want me to hope that Szarekh saves the galaxy from the Tyranids?
Necrons can be written as interesting, even sympathetic characters without making them relatable.
TL;DR I like a lot of the old lore, and the setting was always grimdark even if people didn't realise it.
What's the song near the end?
I've heard it before, but I can't remember.