A lot worse -- I mean, better -- than I expected. The SIN has been definitely buried in Andalusia. Well, this deserves a double GIN tonic! All praise be to God!
So the Ummayads once were ant-trinitarian christians. The Abassids on the other hand took the aramaic texts and converted an adjective that were in the lectionares into the name Mohamed and create a new religion out of thin air.
@@michaelnance8319 you know torah using hebrew and bible using koine greek not even a single word or letter from that languange exist in al quran.Plus al quran already complete compile during prophet muhamad alive..not like bible or torah exist after that prophet passed away.Plus in al quran also God/Allah/Eloh who reveal say to muhamad that He(muhamad)didnt bring new religion but instead completed and fullfilled religion of abraham(all ritual and praise to family of abraham while you christian praised only jesus reject El right?🤣)Allah also say muhamad his duty only as notification He doesnt have authorization over al quran even never his word,speech,idea,assumption etc exist in al quran..he just like other prophet.All prophet bring messenge monothiesm that christian do paganism.You know abraham not among polythiest..he neither jew nor did he was christian😆IF YOU SEE BIBLE USED ARAMIC THATS TRANSLATION FROM GREEK TO OTHER LANGUANGE NOT ACTUAL TEXT🤣al quran already reveal 10 years in mecca THERE NO JEW OR CHRISTIAN THERE🤭what the hell you say they copied??later 13 years in medina verse continue reveal muslim migrate after being killed torture etc there by pagan mecca prophet muhamad relative and tribe when muhamad preach they reject want to continue worship idol,do slavery etc(🙄you dont know?)..there got bnei isreal and nasrani(christian)..high priest and rabbi fyi revert to islam after see and test prophet muhamad his prophethood sign🤣they in revelation book rabbi while youre not.The conversation and event happen between them verse reveal at the same time and prophet muhamad recite directly to their face..and most of them know prophet muhamad indeed prophet esp jews do you know what bnei isreal tribe says to muhamad?he truthful person muhamad tell them about event or thing that only prophet being given knowledge from Allah eg past thing or thing they hide eg law in torah muhamad who never touch or read torah and bible easily can show which verse command they hide in their revelation eg(verses apostasy in torah or in bible)when they being debunk..they just silent or say prophet muhamad magician.Its ability prophet have eg jesus people ask him about tell them what in that house..human cannot see through the wall but some major prophet got that ability.When they(rabbi)hide verse apostasy(midrash scroll)from muhamad hoping can lie to a muhamad he can point it easily🤗they indeed funny and prophet muhamad who know about it..later ask to companion of prophet muhamad who ex rabbi and priest both admit their people changed and disobey Allah even that law exist in their book🤣Thats why statement from people of book important..its just like in court know but asking not bcs the one who asking wrong didnt know about it but instead they are witness to each other.
@@NotLikeWhatYouThink Fantasy Fiction Elina .. Come off it you can’t even show a complete and intact Uthman Quran.. You certainly can’t prove that even a pre-Islamic society existed at Mecca before islam was made up.. And you can’t even prove that Muhammad actually existed.. Islam is literally built on a platform of lies and deceit from bits and pieces of other peoples scriptures and hymns.. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing in Islam is true.. The worlds ultimate obvious fake religion..
@@NotLikeWhatYouThink You need to educate yourself. Try viewing earlier episodes of this channel. Every facet of Islam is covered, so thatpeoplelike you don't have to write lengthy lies...
Now, this is pretty interesting as an explanation for why Beatus' famous and huge Commentary on the Apocalypse doesn't really mention Islam at all, in any way, and focuses more on Adoptionism being wrong, Christ being true God and true Man, and the Trinity. Because Commentary on the Apocalypse was written in the 780's or so, and predicted the end of the world might be in 801 (AD or Spanish reckoning), according to the number of the Holy Spirit, PERISTERA, which is dove in Greek. So I thought maybe he was being tactful, or writing only for Christians -- but maybe there was nobody around except Christians.
We all know that we can use the Bible to support history and history supports the Bible. but Islam struggles to be able to use history to support the Quran, Hadiths.
I can't wait for the next video..this is quite a bombshell guys. Thank you Thomas and INARA school. God bless you all A BIG HELLLLLLO from Australia 🇦🇺
This is a shock for my country, Thomas: a new history starts from this point. Look: I have a big channel in Telegram (140 k) and other in RUclips (160 k), almost completely censored, but we could try to do something. Do you speak spanish?
Unfortunately, I don’t speak Spanish myself. But if you want to put something together for a Spanish audience, I’d be happy to help out, e.g. point you to specific (Spanish) resources.
@@TAlexander I need someone, another historian, who can explain this theory in spanish. I'm researching by myself and doing videos but I need one the pioneers of this "new historian school" of explaining Islam's origins.
@@rafapal4519 You can try to be bold and contact the person I got this from. Maybe he's willing to engage and he certainly speaks Spanish. His name is Johannes Thomas and he's at the Universität Paderborn. That should make it easy find him. On his University page there is an e-mail address. Just ask him if he's willing to talk about his Inarah publications in Spanish.
Something I read once adds plausibility to Thomas's theory. It was a book on the middle ages where the author noted in passing that the Church's initial reaction to Islam was to consider it a heretical sect rather than a completely new religion.
Correct ! They stole knowledge in greece and ransacked rome , monks of all over europe had no other choice but to travel to andalusia , and I discovered the pilgrimage to Compostelle and earlier on , Fatima are scams to cover it up.
It’s interesting how by controlling the narrative they controlled the truth, but truth will not remain hidden for ever thanks to the hard work put in by brother Jay & Thomas.
In the European genetic maps, Spain only has 10% Berber DNA, the rest of the Spanish DNA is European (90%). It is curious that if it is true that there was an occupation of 7 centuries in the south of Spain, the genetic legacy is so low. On the other hand, Spain is the third most ethnically uniform country in Europe after Iceland and Ireland.
This is an utter gamechanger. Apart from anything else we should throw out any supposed qiblas for that time from Spain because it doesn't represent Islam at all.
Hi Mel: I remember that Dan Gibson, at the beginning of minute-15 of his film makes his first mention of PRE-ISLAM and the pilgrimage of the ancient Nabateans. I seem to remember Jay speaking of nomadic traders in pre-Islamic times, who crossed the deserts, who established themselves in far-away places, but they always returned to the Gathering Place, to bury the bones of their dead. For centuries, ancient traders, masters of desert navigators, who used the stars in combination with other measurement methods to cross deserts, went on pilgrimage, back to ancestral Gathering Places, to bury the bones of their dead. Can't remember in which video, but Jay talks about the ancient skill being lost when Romans began to build their confounded "ROADS"... QUESTION-1: Before even the very first Qibla WALL was traced, did those pre-Islamic TRAVELING TRADERS have rituals in which they'd look to the stars at night, in order to TURN, to "FACE" home" ? UNRELATED RANDOM COMMENT___Circumpolar Nomads, ancient Inuit, before colonizers established governments in the Americas, killed all their dog-teams and forced them to 'settle' into 'villages', those Nomads ALSO traveled vast distances (following cariboo/reindeer), on land, which like deserts, had no landmarks as there are in the south (trees, rivers, towns, ROADS); ___in fact, for several months of the year, the sun does not even rise; they also were master navigators on terrain where there are no roads. Some are still alive...
@@redleaf4902 Dan's idea of Pre-Islamic Arabia seems to be a strange mixture of the SIN and what life was like in the Nabatean kingdom in the 2nd century AD. I think this doesn't result in a very reliable picture of life back then. Strangely, Dan also has largely ignored the pre-Islamic Christian sects in his studies. (I have this in by his own admission.) But we can see from Thomas' work how hugely important it is to look at these groups as it explains a lot about how Islamic came about.
@@Speakers154 _☘_ Merci Lad. ...I've a vague reccollection, while we were up at the High Sacrificial Place, my O.T. professor saying that one theory about who carved it, and WHEN, put the creation of the altar as going back, like really back, into pre-histoy times, dating it to be over 20,000 years old. That memory is at odds with much of what I have read about it...
I have a very doubt that if the ummayads didnt fight any wars then who were the people who fought battle of tours in 732 and saved europe who were these people what did they really fought against?
Fascniating. Thomas, can you provide the primary /secondary sources for the bio of Abd al Rahman as you say? The details of the monastery? Also reliable details for Resafa? Many thanks
In the European genetic maps, Spain only has 10% Berber DNA, the rest of the Spanish DNA is European (90%). It is curious that if it is true that there was an occupation of 7 centuries in the south of Spain, the genetic legacy is so low. On the other hand, Spain is the third most ethnically uniform country in Europe after Iceland and Ireland.
@@markkuuss There is nothing wrong with Berber DNA, why do you say that...? I AM EXPLAINING THAT IT IS VERY RARE THAT AFTER THE PASSAGE OF THE MUSLIMS THROUGH SPAIN THERE IS ONLY 10% OF DNA, BERBER, ALSO THERE IS NO ARAB DNA IN SPAIN... It is easy to understand my point, right...?
Aquí estamos. Al fin parece que nuestra madre españa no fue conquistada tan rápida ni tan fácil. Fue una transición a través de unos siglos por lo cual se deshizo con la Reconquista Católica.
Llevo años investigando el tema a través del arte, que es realmente lo que tenemos en España y siempre me pareció obvió que lo que llaman arquitectura árabe no es más que una copia de la persa. Los árabes no tienen arquitectura propia, no hay restos arqueológicos en la península Arábiga. Es evidente que unos nómadas que vivían en "jaimas" poco o nada tienen de arquitectos, por no hablar de las técnicas de regadío y otras aportaciones que nos han vendido como árabes, que simplemente no se sostienen de ninguna manera.
@@joseantoniocastro1486 Entonces en que quedará Pelayo y Asturias? Ya no sería el ultimo refugio de los Cristianos en España, si no fue más específicamente el refugio de los Visigodos Católicos?
This session was awesome. These historical criticisms are going to bring the evil cult of the shin to its knees. I pray the Triune God blesses and protects both of you. May our Lord Jesus Christ send the Holy Spirit to continue to enlighten you with wisdom and understanding of the truth.
Interesting pattern: Dome of the Rock to assert anti-trinitarianism by building above the Church of Holy Sepulcher; Umayyad mosque of Damascus built on top of the Church of St John the Baptist; Great Mosque of Cordoba built on top of the central church of Cordoba. This seems to have been a standard Umayyad practice. I read that the Great Mosque was actually only built from 785. Prior to that, the existing church was shared. That sharing in itself is a fascinating clue. Was this a church originally controlled by Spanish Catholics or Arians? If Arians, this would make even more sense that the two groups would share space: they agreed on many points theologically.
Watching Jay Smith being this open to the truth, and being this genuine, is like watching Glenn Beck being schooled by Michael Malice on liberty. Just can't wait for Glenn to find the ultimate red-pill / white-pill and to renounce his Mormonism. So so beautiful!
This is great material. One question though: it seems that Archbishop Elipandus agreed that Jesus was the Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, but he also believed that the human nature of Jesus, the son of David, was adopted by God. So he was not exactly an anti-trinitarian (just as Nestorius was not anti-trinitarian but was still heterodox). His theology seems to fall somewhere between Nestorian and Arian in your table of Christian currents. Maybe Elipandus just shows the ongoing christological uncertainties in Spain, which after all had lived for centuries with an Arian Christian overclass (the first Catholic King of the Lombards in Italy was in 653). And might he have been trying to make peace between different theological/political factions? Arab anti-trinitarians would have fit into this mix of theologies well. Fascinating that people complained about the youth learning Arabic and then the Quran and Muhammad appeared. So this adoption of culture preceded and provided the fertile ground for the religion.
Given the linguistic barrier, isn't it possible that Spanish Catholic authorities were unaware of an earlier spread of the Quran/Muhammad? That Bishop Eulogius had realized late what the Arabs were thinking? Rahman built the mosque of Cordoba but what services took place there? Were they in Arabic? Were they in Latin? Were they under the jurisdiction and supervision of the Archbishop of Toledo? Do we have any record of Arab religious leaders before 850?
@@charlesiragui2473 I would think that population was much smaller back then, also true for the elite ruling class and clergy. So ideas would have quickly been communicated through the educated.
Hi Thomas, when will you discuss the Merv origin of the Quran and the Buddhist connection to Islam? Anxiously waiting (Here your sound is clipping, but on your channel its clear.. strange?)
It turns out the Islamic Golden Age wasn’t Islamic, it was non-trinitarian age. The Islamic system does not support learning, which is why only 3 muslims as of today have earned Nobel Prizes in academic subjects.
To be fair, Bishop Elipandus was dealing with some really, really wacky religious movements and heresies, including That One Guy who thought David was the incarnation of God the Father, or something equally bizarre. He apparently had some rather wacky ideas himself, though, as he thought that an Adoptionist reading of the wording of Mozarabic Mass stuff would unite the Arian and wacky christological stuff back into orthodoxy. Problem was that he didn't understand orthodox Christology himself, and he got very irate when schooled on it by St. Beatus of Liebana (because Liebana was hicksville up north in the mountains, and Toledo was the big city as well as the primate city for Hispania's Christians). Nasty, nasty letterwriter, that Elipandus. But I don't think he _actually_ thought that he was anti-Trinitarian. Seriously. I mean, I'll go and re-read, but I think he was just clueless and a trend-follower.
14:15 Great video, but could you please clarify about the Ibadi Christians tipping over to islam? Why would they "tip over" to islam if they only agree with islam about non-trinitarianism, but - as Christians - surely disagree with the rest of the package? In fact, could you also elaborate, what was Ibadi Christianity?
We’ve gone over the “tipping over process” in the previous videos. The rationale in Umayyad Spain would have been the same as that in the Abbasid East. Only it happened with a slight delay, but then all the more forceful. As for the Ibadi, they were anti-Trinitarian Christians. Possibly some of the very first Arabs to become Christian. There were some sectarian differences compared to Abd al-Malik’s form of anti-Trinitarianism, but they seem to be mostly regarding the question of governance.
Do you guys have a compilation of citations for this stuff? Not saying I don't agree with the analysis, just that this stuff needs to be added to the Wikipedia page on the Historicity of the Quran. Albar of Qordoba's quote for instance, a good compelling paper talking about Albar could be extremely useful to merit its inclusion. This is amazing stuff guys. Deeply researched and deeply compelling. Putting the final SIN together is going to take years, I feel like, you need deep qualified researchers, and I'll buy the book.
I’m mainly relying on Johannes Thomas and his article “Frühe Spanische Zeugnisse zum Islam” It is freely available on the Inarah website (in three parts) and it contains all the references to primary and secondary literature.
@@TAlexander thanks so much, I saw you mentioned it down thread as well, a trove of information here, I think that it's in a different language is why it didn't cross my radar when I searched at least that specific tome, but Google translate is working well on the particular article.
In old Maltese (Siculo-Arabic language) "Qibla" meant South. Mecca is more Western than Southern to Malta. Thomas let me know where to send more info if it is of interest.
Charlemagne son and his army were a blessing in disgiuse for the basque people ..avoided Islamic occupation..the Poem of Roland is a famous poem about this battle.
Thomas, can you do a talk on this "new" muhammed religion when it was first described in Spain. Was the original muhammed, as first introduced in Spain, simply "the praised one" (Jesus), or had the fictional muhammed finally been invented and it was that that was introduced? If so, then what were people told about the fictional muhammed? How would they have been so persuaded? When did the transformation from Jesus to "muhammed" occur in Spain?
The polemics which were brought against Muhammad around 850 AD were against the prophet of Islam. I have not come across any evidence that Jesus was ever called the "Muhammad" in Hispania. But then the Arabic language wasn't as established in the early days. Neither Berbers nor Visigoths nor the Spaniards would have spoken it. Also, When Hispania was taken over by Arabs and Berbers, the term Muhammad for Jesus was already on its last legs in the East anyway. Remember that the last piece of evidence we have stems from 756 AD.
@@TAlexander Thanks. I am still baffled by how they managed this subterfuge in the East. That they could dream up a fictional character, give him a history and biography, patch together a "book" based on early lectionaries and old stories, and then sell this to populations with established religions going back hundreds to thousands of years. I suppose the violence helped.
@jazzymiles miles You must be STANDING on one "leg " the WORD Muhammed is a title not a NAME so your fasle kangaroo religion hijacked everything to create Islam WITH no reasonable doubt Islam comes from a HERETIC Christianity
@jazzymiles miles You gamble on one family converting to islam WHAT about the 6million Muslims who left Islam in 2020? And to sour the situation Father Zacharia said he can't count how many Sheiks have disclosed to him that they are no longer Muslims and yet they are still leading prayers in mosques Today we have thousands of thousands of apostates inside Those mosques don't be fooled Muslims are cutting those satanic ties
@jazzymiles miles Are you a fool I just told you what you have isapostate sheiks who have already declared thier apostacy but are afraid to say it cos of Sharia law If Sharia could be banned you will not see Islam again Muslims are flogging in churches in masses denouncing Islam in secret
Mindblowing Thomas 👍.. btw, there is the article "Yah", in Muawi-Yah, and when I checked wikipedia, it is stated that it has "disputed meaning", sounds suspicious LOL, anyone have a hint on this? (Anyway there is the word muawwidzatain, in which muawwi there means "I seek refuge", so perhaps "I seek refuge to Yah"?)
Two minutes in: had to pause and go listen to a song: ___Gitans ___ Compagnons de la chanson___ D'où vviens-tu Gitan? Je viens de Bohême D'où viens-tu Gitan? Je viens d'Italie Et toi, beau Gitan? De l'Andalousie Et toi vieux Gitan, oh d'où viens-tu? Je viens d'un pays qui n'existe plus.... 💃🕺 Okay. In the right mood now for this presentation. My new favourite quote: "And that's the primary evidence we have from Spain; and, again, it goes completely against the Traditional Standard Islamic Narrative, and supports what we've seen, when we looked at the history in the East, how this Anti-Trinitarian Christianity evolved into Islam." Et voilà! or, should I say, Holé! or, Holy Toledo! ...So, I finished about ten minutes ago. Just came back to check, in case the next episode was available.
Excellent Thomas, Excellet... the things you said put in perspective many-may things I knew inside Spain-Portugal history.... I I may I said an addendum, It was a surprise for me wen it forst came out the DNA studies of Spain, what astonish me the most, even If I suspected before, it´s that there isn´t a "cline" in arab or bereber genes inside Spain, on the contrary, the "cline" is of hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers from west to east of Iberia diluting itself with yamnaya.... The picture you can get from any place of Europe were the yamnaya genes spread out .... but not Bereber o Arab genes.... even inside the principal component of all europe western Asia and northen Africa Spain remain inside the cluster of europeans without any distortions ..... The point here, and i now that from the XV to the XVIII centuries a large migration of muslims took place out of spain (mostly driven from revolts).... the mozarabs (Cristians) must had some degree of introgression even if strict rules of no muslim can have a non muslim offspring was in place..... Your talk clarified me a lot in that regard, they not needed to put in to Spain a lot of Arabs and berebers to really have initial inertia for controlling the peninsula!!!!... It´s incredible, even Goths genes and repopulation of the "extremaduras" genes can be traced, strongly, in the genetic make-up of today Spanish and Portuguese, but not bereber or arab genes except for the non statistically robust suggestion of the Nazarí Kingdom lands (Granada, Málaga, Almería and parts of Murcia) could have some small trace. The other thing (unrelated) is islamic architecture, I was aware of the Visigoth (early romanic), Roman (Bizantine) influence inside the muslim architecture in spain, but you gave to me the last part, persian influence.... the same thing you can find in western Sicily In few words (again unrelated) , the almoravids and almohads fanatic sunni invasons were the ones that REALLY caused so much stress inside the peninsula that the Cristian kingdoms of the North had it´s way to the reconquista
I have never looked into this genetic side of things, thanks for bringing it up. It’s great how the puzzle pieces fall into place. As for the amount of men needed. Hans Delbrück wrote a seminal book in the late 19th century, analysing wars from antiquity to the Napoleonic wars. His conclusion was that the migration period armies were much (!!!) smaller than traditionally believed. He mainly looked at the logistical side of things and concluded that none of the Barbarian invaders had more than 15.000 fighting men. But that was enough to subdue entire nations like Italy (Ostrogoths) and Spain (Visigoths). These new rulers oftentimes razed all defensive structures within their new kingdoms because they wouldn’t have had the men to besiege rebellious cities. That would also fit the idea of a comparatively small invasion force. One unrelated side notes on the genetics. I did a 23andMe sequencing and uploaded the result to a page called MyTrueAncestry where you can match your DNA with that of samples taken from archaeological digs all around the world. My closest match happens to be a Visigoth woman from North-Eastern Spain who died around 550 AD, which is a fun discovery. I don’t have a good explanation for this as I can trace my family back for centuries, so any relation must be on a population level and can’t be due to a single recent ancestor of mine. But my family is not from anywhere near where the Visigoths ever lived. So I have two hypotheses: Either it’s a Suebi connection (my family has lived for centuries in the Southern German region where the Suebi settled) or it’s common ancestry. The other top matches are mostly Longobards who supposedly were a side-branch of the Suebi, so that would also fit both hypotheses.
So when and why were those Mosques built in Spain, Algeria and Morocco? Those first mosques with their Qiblas oriented towards Mozambique, parallel to an imaginary line from Petra to present day mecca in Saudi Arabia?
Hasham probably did not trust the "swamp politics" in Damascus. He could then award key aspects of a new city to his trusted men without imbedded opposition.
I've been following this series with Thomas. It is looking very much like Islam is nothing more than a christian cult, likened to that of Mormonism, JW etc. Brings to mind what Messiah Jesus said in Matt 16:6 "beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" and what Paul said in Gal 5:9 "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". Incorrect teaching on a single matter can snowball to a point where entire new religions are established.
They relocated because he didn’t like mosquitoes 😂 later they built mosques : hey, perhaps a mosque stands for mosquito shelter!!! Hahaha Just kidding of course. Great work brothers! The whole SIN thing is just falling apart!
It doesn’t really have an impact on it. It happened pretty much as the history books tell us. It’s just that it wasn’t Muslims who fought there but anti-Trinitarians. But then the old chronicles never mention a different religion. So it all fits.
@@markkuuss Andalucia is Spain, don't talk nonsense, and the name derives from the name that the VANDALS gave to the region, Germanic tribes, ... On the OTHER HAND, in Spain Andalusia and the BETICA region are SYNONYMS... Andalucia can also be called BETICA. Study a little history, you'll learn things. ""There is no Spanish name for it"" Do you have any cognition problem? Do you know that ALL of North Africa was Christian TERRITORY and the Berbers were CHRISTIANS before the Muslim invasion?....
The Church has records in written form since the time of the apostles (New Testament), and we know every single popes since St. Peter, every exact dates they sat in the holy see. They should have known the details about how these heretics transformed into a new religion. I'm sure there are more than enough written records about this kept somewhere in the Church archives. The question is, why won't the Church shed a light?
Unlike the bible which was then written on parchment a lot of these other records probably were written on papyrus. Also given that they don't form part of the theological beliefs and are just communication the desire to preserve them would be low. On the other hand we still have letters from the students of the disciples preserved because this formed part of the teaching and theology (example would be Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians from the 2nd century)
Very interesting theory. But how to mix it with the frankish chronicles describing the muslim armies stopped in 732 at the battle of Poitiers/Tours? Or texts from the Charlemagne (742-814) court talking about the Spanish muslims?
These chronicles do not mention Islam or Muslims. The enemies are merely called Saracens. Some translators choose to translate Saracens as Muslims, but that's not what the texts say.
@@TAlexander. Thanks Thomas for the answer. But I thought that the word ‘Saracens’ was used to describe the muslims. If it’s not the case, what did Saracens mean?
@@iparipaitegianiparipaitegi4643 Saracens is an ethnic description, not a religious one. The term has been used centuries before the rise of Islam. For example Claudius Ptolemy already used the term in the 2nd century. During the Middle Ages it eventually took on the meaning of something like "Arab Muslim", but that was a later development.
The same happened in Morocco in Almoravid/Almohad sunni dinasties who learnt Islam in Bagdad, Islam was so "new" that they even did the Adhan in Amazigh/Berber language in the century XII. And in theory North Africa was a strong muslim province since Uqba ibn Nafia!! All Islamic narrative it's a lie.
I think you're overreaching slightly regarding what can reasonably be inferred from citing Matthew. During the evolution of Islam, there was presumably a period of time when some people accepted the Qur'an as important or authoritative but many others did not. In such a period, people who themselves regarded the Qur'an as important or authoritative needed to use the Bible instead of the Qur'an when discussing and debating theological points with people who would be more likely to condemn the Qur'an as heretical than to accept it as authoritative. Thus, using Matthew as a source seems consistent with the possibility that there may have been a significant number of Muslims or proto-Muslims who believed the Qur'an, but that the Qur'an had not yet become accepted widely enough for trying to use it as a source of authority to be useful in discussion and debate outside the community of Muslims or proto-Muslims. This series is presenting some great information. Thanks!
I said in the video that we can't conclude that there was no Quran, only that it wouldn't have been used as scripture. If the anti-Trinitarians use the Gospel of Matthew, it tells us that this was scripture for them. In fact, I think it's very possible that the Quran was present by the 9th century. But it would have been used more as a lectionary than as scripture. In the East, it would have been scripture by that point.
Well, that is certainly possible, but more likely, as Thomas implied, they are two different cults (berbers - go Matthew & ibadi - quran) , both anti trinitians, that join hands to seize control of iberia from the catholic/orthodox clergies.
@@TAlexander My point was that the status of the Quran as "scripture" probably evolved over time. Assuming you are right about Islam evolving from Christianity, there was almost certainly not a time when everyone woke up and said, "We are going to stop using the Bible as scripture and start using the Quran." Instead, there were almost certainly periods of time (different in different places) when people continued viewing the Bible as being at least mostly authoritative while the Quran was growing in authority. That would logically lead to situations where proto-Muslims viewed the Quran as scripture or as having a status close to scripture among themselves but continued to use the Bible as common ground when discussing and debating theological issues with Christians who did not accept the Quran as having any special authority, or especially who would be likely to brand them as heretics if they claimed publicly that the Quran had more authority than the Bible. Thus, quoting Matthew in discussion and debate between different Christian factions tells us little about how much progress the Quran had made toward being accepted as scripture when proto-Muslims thought about religious matters and discussed religious matters with each other. There is a broad spectrum of possibilities ranging from still viewing the Quran essentially as just a lectionary, to privately believing that the Quran was more authoritative than the Bible but viewing it as bad strategy to argue publicly that the Quran should be accepted as authoritative.
It appears that perhaps the expansion of Arabs and Berbers was the result of plague in the more settled regions of the Byzantine Empire, creating a vacuum that facilitated the Arabs moving into Syria, Palestine and Egypt. They then pushed across North Africa as well where Berbers were similarly living pastoral lifestyles that did not help the spread of plague and helped their numbers to stay higher vis-a-vis the farming and trading peoples. Also, in studying St. Augustine one learns that there were strong anti-orthodox/catholicism religious movements there in his day (Donatism) - so their descendants might have been more receptive to an alternative form of christianity as well. Not sure about that, just speculation..
This has been fabulous. However, three things: 1) I wonder how much parallel can be found in the waves of religious change from Trinitarian to anti-Trinitarian to Muslim belief in the official religion with the changes in Tudor and post Tudor England from Catholic to Anglican to Puritanism. I know that in the English case there were no changes in the ruling class but the changes were made from the top and belief changed much more slowly, or not at all lower down. 2) you say after one point Trinitarianism was over in Spain, this reminds me about social historians when they make the ridiculous claims about women being absent from the work force. Women of a certain class may not worked, but women have always worked. There would have been plenty of Trinitarian peasants.
Please please please Dr. Jay, please do not continue the background music when the conversation starts. Sometimes it is difficult to understand with accents and the music exacerbates the issue. Thank you.
Thank you for managing this valuable discussion. I have a question from Mr. Thomas. The answer to this question can clarify many ambiguities about the origin of Islam and the formation of this religion from the Christian sects. The result of a century research on the history of the beginning of Islam shows that the Qur'an was initially rooted in religious/Christian recitation, poems and songs from the Bible or Christian apocryphal beliefs, which were in Syriac/Aramaic language and were recited in religious ceremonies. These poems were translated into Arabic during the time of Abdul Malik Marwan; and in a process of 200 years, these Christian poems resulted in the Meccan surahs of the Quran (in comparison of Medina surahs of Quran which relates to jurisdiction). Evidence confirming this hypothesis could be the Qurans that the Umayyads believed in, compiling and developing during the 800 years they ruled in Spain. Because Umayyads believed in Christianity, must have developed completely a different Quran from Abbasids, which ruled in Baghdad. And since the Abbasid family, who ruled in Baghdad, compiled and developed their own Qur'an, the comparison between of these two Umayyad and Abbasid Qur'ans, which evolved separately from each other, can clarify many ambiguities about the Christian origins of Islam. My question: Is the Umayyad's Quran available?
Thanks for the materials confirming my own thought where geopolitics was behind all of this and the early of Islam was all Christians (anti-trinitarians) as well. the hated of this anti-trinitarians people escalated on that era by building an army and end up took over many lands. well once people in reign they tend to invent something different breakaway from its major line, same motives with 1940s Nazi trying to make another type of Christian. Arianism is one of major Christian beliefs at that time where leaving trinitiarianism/ Catholism at Rome and Romans Empire, and war against Rome is mentioned as major line in their book as the final.
Pelayo and the founding of Asturias then would now turn out to be not necessarily the last Christian holdout Kingdom after Islamic invasion, but maybe just a Catholic Visigothic refuge/stronghold after the fall of Visigothic control to the Arabs?
I have a big doubt about Battle of Tours 732 if it did happen or not...because historicans tell that the battle decided the future of europe...if that battle is real then who fought who.
@@fantasia55 Well in the standard narrative we would understand Asturias to be a last refuge for all types of Christians, with Muslims having conquered the peninsula. But in the new version, Christianity would have continued for some time until Islam finally evolved from it. So Asturias would seem to really just be the Catholic Visigothic nobility that the Arabs replaced. The Arian Visigoths probably didn’t retreat to Asturias.
I hope their is a German school like inara who could do a Research on origins of Hinduism...its a very vast topic but i can tell that Hinduism has formed in india in the same way as Islam in Arabia...we need a school for Origins of Hinduism study it started with Aryans of Central Asia.
@@rafapal4519 what i meant was that their is no school or group who is doing research into the origins of Hinduism like many are doing in case of Islam....Hinduism looks like a very mysterious religion but if you study it its not...it can be understood where it came from...for sure its formation was not as easy as a century or two...it took its current form in a millenium or two...so their is a need to systematically study the origins of Hinduism
@@rafapal4519 but their is a big minus point...unlike Islam judaism or Christianity...scholars will find to do research on Hinduism to be very difficult...because the history of hinduism doesnt have much document evidence or written evidences from ancient times...its totally reliant on the hindu scriptures which tell about the origins...we dont have any contemporary sources for hinduism...
@@rafapal4519 but one thing of help for scholars would be a great amount of archeological evidences especially after Emperor Ashoka 3rd cen BC...but before Ashoka we have virtually no good evidence to build origins of hinduism except what hindus claim as their scriptures i.e vedas and upanishads which i don't believe are much older either.
Seems like the recurring theme is that the 800s are the tipping point of the transition from non-trinitarian Christianity to Islam. Which is a great coincidence since get the SIN in the same period.
Very interesting. I have learned a lot! Thank you! But the antitrinitarian views come from an antichristian movement and not from inside christianity. They used also antitrinitarian christians minorities of heretics that always existed, people that have lost the faith. But the movement comes from Persia.
It was a monastery in Qinnasrin called Dair Hanna (Monastery of St. Anna), in the North-East of modern day Israel. I couldn’t find anything on the denomination. Given its location, I’d guess it was Jacobite. Source: Ajbar Machmuâ. Crónica arábiga del siglo XI, dada á luz por primera vez, trad. y anotada pour Don Emilio Lafuente y Alcántara.
Once upon a time, there were some people that were not happy. They were happy, but not as happy as they might’ve been and certainly unhappier as other people at their times. Wow. How can someone keep a straight face with such arguments?
See and blind, Hear and deaf. History is right before Muslims eyes and they(some) are just so stubborn to accept there are HOLES in the HOLY Quran/Koran(S.I.N).....
Is it possible that when these anti-Trinitarians were using the Gospel of Matthew to support their view, that it was in fact the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew?
It seems like the Pseudo Matthew, which only appeared in the century preceding Elipandus, does not take an anti-trinitarian point of view. All the infancy gospels rather point to Jesus's divine nature from birth and even before birth in the holy history of Mary. Strangely, the anti-trinitarian Quran borrows heavily from these infancy gospels (story of Mary, virgin birth, clay bird brought to life by Jesus's breath), at the same time as adopting a strongly anti-trinitarian doctrine. (This kind of backs up what you're thinking: anti-trinitarian thought could coexist with the infancy gospels.) I wonder whether Thomas will speak about this seeming contradiction within the Quran. Is this apochrypha material in the Quran of an earlier vintage and Abd al Malik layered the anti-trinitarian material onto the lectionary? Did anti-trinitarian Syrian theology favor the infancy gospels? On Elipandus, it would seem that he was in close communication with Catholic theologians across Western Europe, who strongly denounced his theology. So he would seem to be a mere divergence from Catholicism, well aware of and revering the Gospel of Matthew as Scripture.
@@charlesiragui2473 I can't see how they(the anti-trinitarians) would interpret the actual Gospel of Matthew as supporting their Christology. Not unless the Islamic doctrine that lying is acceptable in defense of the faith was already well established. An alternative may be that some how, in some way, they were already using an Arabic mistranslation of a Aramaic Gospel of Matthew. We need more data.
@@chrishoff402 Yes, that is why I believe Thomas should not be calling this Spanish "heresy" anti-trinitarian. Archbishop Elipandus agreed that Jesus was the Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, but he also believed that the human nature of Jesus, the son of David, was adopted by God. So he was not exactly an anti-trinitarian (just as Nestorius was not anti-trinitarian but was still heterodox). His theology seems to fall somewhere between Nestorian and Arian in Thomas's table of Christian currents.
@@chrishoff402 But on the other hand, the Germanic Arians who ruled Western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire were absolutely anti-trinitarians. They denied the divinity of Jesus. Or not. To be fair, Arius himself was at the Council of Nicaea. So it would seem that interpretation could bring readers of the 4 gospels to a view that Jesus was not God, not divine, just a man. This view was condemned at Nicaea. I do not know much about the practices of the Germanic Arians of the 6th and 7th centuries. Did they use the 4 gospels? Did they have alternative scriptures?
Sorry if this question has been asked before. Did the christians in Spain at the time know about Islam being something distinct from this anti-trinitarian christian sect? As I understand it there was this spread of an anti-trinitarian Christain sect that was later co-opted by Islam.
What I don't understand is why the ummayyads, who were originally anti-trinitarian christians, accepted to convert to sunni islam (hadiths, tafsir and sira), which was invented by the abbassids who were the arch ennemies of the ummayyads ? Has there been some kind of reconciliation ?
ikr I have been demanding him to debunk my content for about four months now and he stated he would debunk my videos but he has never followed through for he is ibn fibbn chicken
Interesting but a bit thin on evidence for the scale of a sudden flip and the mechanisms. There is also a traditional Western narrative on this to be overturned - one of North v South, elite v majority, urban v rural. Also clergy tend to have tunnel vision for their flock rather than other growing demographics and as we see in recent history are often the last to notice. Traditional allegations around conversion concerned enslavement, taxation, marriage rules although is that later under stricter Sunni rules?
One of the slides has the term "Ibadi Christianity", but this is not mentioned during th presentation. There is something called Ibadi Islam and in a previous Thomas presented the idea of an "Ibadi tribe", but the concept of "Ibadi Christianity" appear to be new concept, so it needs some explanation
In the histories, they’re either referred to as Ibadi or Lakhmids. They originally came from the region around Hira (as indicated in the last video) from where they moved into Northern Africa during the Byzantine-Sasanian war and later into Spain. They were anti-Trinitarian Christians. The Islamic sect is a later development.
@@PeterHarremoes By “a later development”, I meant later than the events of the 7th and early 8th century I described. To be honest, I’m not familiar with the 9th century coins you mentioned, but the Ibadi already minted coins in the 7th century. They were also supporters of Zuhayr’s, so there seem to have been sectarian differences already in the 7th century, albeit within an anti-Trinitarian Christian framework.
@@TAlexander There are various coins from the 7th century with Kharijite slogans. The Ibadi sect is often considered to part of the Kharijite movement, but as far as I know the Kwarijite coins from 7th century are minted by other branches of the Kharijite movement than the Ibadi sect. In Sinaw in Oman the is a hoard of about 900 coins that are distinct Ibadi. Their dating is uncertain, but the experts say that the burial of the coins took place around 840 CE. That means that these Ibadi coins are older than 840 CE. Is it the Kharijite coins from the 7th century that you claim are anti-trinitarian Christian or do you claim that Oman was Christian, or do you refer to some coins from the 7th century that are from the ibadi sect and not from some other branch of the Kharijite movement?
@@PeterHarremoes I’ve read an article on those 7th century coins where the author made the argument that one can distinguish between Kharijites and Ibadi coins. Either way, these groups were closely aligned. As for Oman, we know that there were Christians in the 7th century and before. I haven’t looked at Oman in detail though, so I couldn’t tell you how many there were and if it would be fair to say Oman was Christian. Though from what I remember, there was at the very least a sizeable minority.
Per Dan Gibson Qibla direction tool the Cordoba mosque was built in 784 CE and was in the parallel direction. If it was a church why did it have a qibla? Then there was the Tauste graveyard mosque built in 772 also a parallel direction gibla. I suppose this was a church also. Let us carbon date these Bishop letters.
A similar "parallel qibla" was used in North Africa, and some mosques in North Africa were appearently predate the conquest of Spain. Therefore the use of the "parallel qibla" cannot be explained from the existence of Arian Christians in Spain.
@@PeterHarremoes Good point. The fact that there are qiblas in these so called churches of the anti-Trinitarian destroys the idea they are just a flavor of Christianity. Where in scripture does everyone having to pray in the same direction come from? That alone shows Thomas's premise is false.
@@501Mobius According to the Bible the second coming of Jesus will be from the east. Therefore Christians should pray facing east and the churches should be oriented accordingly. Christian graves should be oriented with the head pointing west and the feet pointing east. In this way the Christians should just sit up in their grave to face the second coming of Jesus. In some periods these ideas have been important for the Christians.
In the Mozarabic Chronicles there is never any mention of a new religion, not even Islam or Muslim, they are called Saracens or Ismaelites. There is a very interesting quote that says: King Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr was killed in Mecca (the house of Abraham, according to their own opinion), a city that is located in the desert between Ur of the Chaldeans and Carras of Mesopotamia.
How about coins from that time in Spain? Any clues about its gnostic origin. Or any surviving sculptures or paintings or any surviving edicts etc Or any secular literature telling us stories of that time in Spain? Clearly the conquering people were Arabic language speakers...but what else? Burial rites or positions or direction? were they polygamous? The believers? Did they talked about Haji or Macca?
The question Is Always the same. When the slave trader with the pumpkin on the head, with his brigants, his harem's sacks of rubbish, and his prophet has come out in the time of history?
That's why we need to study our own Christian history not others like made by Islam...The problem is most western scholars used secondary sources instead of primary sources from Eastern Christian Churches...Spain has his own Christian Churches history...Spain was conquered by Islam as most of European countries...
Oh to understand early Islam is to understand antitritheism, is to understand catholicism (gotta love that Iraqian ubber driver that dropped me off yesterday). Us protestant never had it so good, oh how we do respect the catholic church so much more now! Big hats off (zucchetto) to the glory of the catholic church! as an postmillennialism realist, the catholic church throughout history is that most reliable vehicle. As an institution that is human, Yes it's not perfect, but it does get you through to Jesus for the most part throughout all of human history! Jesus is not done yet with that institution! gotta love it! name a more successful institution? Jesus is that ultimate true archetype in the sky/ that is governing, sitting on his throne now just outside our universe, totally in control throughout all of human history. If you deny him that God title, that early, we can see now what happens! you get totally owned! how victorious is he? this is just the beginning! I'm sure this is the iceberg scenario etc.
So Charlamge instead against Islam fought against Anti-Trinitarian invaders from Spain .... which still would still result in the Catholic Church of the time supporting and exalting him for that ....
It is nothing short of a miracle, spain was saved from the clutches of islam.
Praise the lord.
Spain was saved and the world was saved.
Spain saved the world.
All praise be to God.
That Islam's origin was forged is a well-known fact. Now thanks to the brilliant work of Thomas and Dr Jay, the truth is coming to light.🤣🤣🤣
You have so much fun with this brother great nice to see that 😄😄😄😅
@nfw I used to say that, but I think forged is better.
As an German-American I thank you Inara School for this material. Great minds can think alike
Appreciate you featuring Thomas on here lately, he has some incredible viewpoints that I have never considered before.
A lot worse -- I mean, better -- than I expected.
The SIN has been definitely buried in Andalusia.
Well, this deserves a double GIN tonic!
All praise be to God!
Lots of new material few people have heard before. Excellent video.
Much appreciation to Thomas for your hard work!
So the Ummayads once were ant-trinitarian christians. The Abassids on the other hand took the aramaic texts and converted an adjective that were in the lectionares into the name Mohamed and create a new religion out of thin air.
Both the Umayyad caliphate and Abassids Caliphate took Aramaic code text and altered them to become the Quran.
@@michaelnance8319 you know torah using hebrew and bible using koine greek not even a single word or letter from that languange exist in al quran.Plus al quran already complete compile during prophet muhamad alive..not like bible or torah exist after that prophet passed away.Plus in al quran also God/Allah/Eloh who reveal say to muhamad that He(muhamad)didnt bring new religion but instead completed and fullfilled religion of abraham(all ritual and praise to family of abraham while you christian praised only jesus reject El right?🤣)Allah also say muhamad his duty only as notification He doesnt have authorization over al quran even never his word,speech,idea,assumption etc exist in al quran..he just like other prophet.All prophet bring messenge monothiesm that christian do paganism.You know abraham not among polythiest..he neither jew nor did he was christian😆IF YOU SEE BIBLE USED ARAMIC THATS TRANSLATION FROM GREEK TO OTHER LANGUANGE NOT ACTUAL TEXT🤣al quran already reveal 10 years in mecca THERE NO JEW OR CHRISTIAN THERE🤭what the hell you say they copied??later 13 years in medina verse continue reveal muslim migrate after being killed torture etc there by pagan mecca prophet muhamad relative and tribe when muhamad preach they reject want to continue worship idol,do slavery etc(🙄you dont know?)..there got bnei isreal and nasrani(christian)..high priest and rabbi fyi revert to islam after see and test prophet muhamad his prophethood sign🤣they in revelation book rabbi while youre not.The conversation and event happen between them verse reveal at the same time and prophet muhamad recite directly to their face..and most of them know prophet muhamad indeed prophet esp jews do you know what bnei isreal tribe says to muhamad?he truthful person muhamad tell them about event or thing that only prophet being given knowledge from Allah eg past thing or thing they hide eg law in torah muhamad who never touch or read torah and bible easily can show which verse command they hide in their revelation eg(verses apostasy in torah or in bible)when they being debunk..they just silent or say prophet muhamad magician.Its ability prophet have eg jesus people ask him about tell them what in that house..human cannot see through the wall but some major prophet got that ability.When they(rabbi)hide verse apostasy(midrash scroll)from muhamad hoping can lie to a muhamad he can point it easily🤗they indeed funny and prophet muhamad who know about it..later ask to companion of prophet muhamad who ex rabbi and priest both admit their people changed and disobey Allah even that law exist in their book🤣Thats why statement from people of book important..its just like in court know but asking not bcs the one who asking wrong didnt know about it but instead they are witness to each other.
@@NotLikeWhatYouThink Fantasy Fiction Elina .. Come off it you can’t even show a complete and intact Uthman Quran..
You certainly can’t prove that even a pre-Islamic society existed at Mecca before islam was made up..
And you can’t even prove that Muhammad actually existed..
Islam is literally built on a platform of lies and deceit from bits and pieces of other peoples scriptures and hymns..
Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing in Islam is true.. The worlds ultimate obvious fake religion..
That's simply the reality...
@@NotLikeWhatYouThink You need to educate yourself. Try viewing earlier episodes of this channel. Every facet of Islam is covered, so thatpeoplelike you don't have to write lengthy lies...
Now, this is pretty interesting as an explanation for why Beatus' famous and huge Commentary on the Apocalypse doesn't really mention Islam at all, in any way, and focuses more on Adoptionism being wrong, Christ being true God and true Man, and the Trinity.
Because Commentary on the Apocalypse was written in the 780's or so, and predicted the end of the world might be in 801 (AD or Spanish reckoning), according to the number of the Holy Spirit, PERISTERA, which is dove in Greek.
So I thought maybe he was being tactful, or writing only for Christians -- but maybe there was nobody around except Christians.
We all know that we can use the Bible to support history and history supports the Bible. but Islam struggles to be able to use history to support the Quran, Hadiths.
@@MuzziProud Archaeology confirms the Bible. Islam has no archeological support.
@@MuzziProud arquelogy was born from the Bible in the 18 century
I can't wait for the next video..this is quite a bombshell guys.
Thank you Thomas and INARA school.
God bless you all
A BIG HELLLLLLO from Australia 🇦🇺
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
This is a shock for my country, Thomas: a new history starts from this point. Look: I have a big channel in Telegram (140 k) and other in RUclips (160 k), almost completely censored, but we could try to do something. Do you speak spanish?
Link to your RUclips channel, please? I speak Spanish.
@@thinkingperson2122 ruclips.net/channel/UC_YvSwzUGlcCVTGSlvDMQZQ
Unfortunately, I don’t speak Spanish myself. But if you want to put something together for a Spanish audience, I’d be happy to help out, e.g. point you to specific (Spanish) resources.
@@TAlexander I need someone, another historian, who can explain this theory in spanish. I'm researching by myself and doing videos but I need one the pioneers of this "new historian school" of explaining Islam's origins.
@@rafapal4519 You can try to be bold and contact the person I got this from. Maybe he's willing to engage and he certainly speaks Spanish. His name is Johannes Thomas and he's at the Universität Paderborn. That should make it easy find him. On his University page there is an e-mail address. Just ask him if he's willing to talk about his Inarah publications in Spanish.
Again great work, this material is so informative.
Something I read once adds plausibility to Thomas's theory. It was a book on the middle ages where the author noted in passing that the Church's initial reaction to Islam was to consider it a heretical sect rather than a completely new religion.
Th e Church was right. They are the first ones to know what is a heresy and what is not.
So, no quran in 840! No religion called islam. No new prophet called muhammed.
Correct ! They stole knowledge in greece and ransacked rome , monks of all over europe had no other choice but to travel to andalusia , and I discovered the pilgrimage to Compostelle and earlier on , Fatima are scams to cover it up.
It’s interesting how by controlling the narrative they controlled the truth, but truth will not remain hidden for ever thanks to the hard work put in by brother Jay & Thomas.
In the European genetic maps, Spain only has 10% Berber DNA, the rest of the Spanish DNA is European (90%). It is curious that if it is true that there was an occupation of 7 centuries in the south of Spain, the genetic legacy is so low. On the other hand, Spain is the third most ethnically uniform country in Europe after Iceland and Ireland.
JESUS IS THE TRUTH.
@@danieladedosugbadero7373 Yes..!!!! VIVA CRISTO REY...
Thanks for the video again Jay and Thomas.
This is an utter gamechanger. Apart from anything else we should throw out any supposed qiblas for that time from Spain because it doesn't represent Islam at all.
Hi Mel: I remember that Dan Gibson, at the beginning of minute-15 of his film makes his first mention of PRE-ISLAM and the pilgrimage of the ancient Nabateans.
I seem to remember Jay speaking of nomadic traders in pre-Islamic times, who crossed the deserts, who established themselves in far-away places, but they always returned to the Gathering Place, to bury the bones of their dead.
For centuries, ancient traders, masters of desert navigators, who used the stars in combination with other measurement methods to cross deserts, went on pilgrimage, back to ancestral Gathering Places, to bury the bones of their dead. Can't remember in which video, but Jay talks about the ancient skill being lost when Romans began to build their confounded "ROADS"...
QUESTION-1: Before even the very first Qibla WALL was traced, did those pre-Islamic TRAVELING TRADERS have rituals in which they'd look to the stars at night, in order to TURN, to "FACE" home" ?
UNRELATED RANDOM COMMENT___Circumpolar Nomads, ancient Inuit, before colonizers established governments in the Americas, killed all their dog-teams and forced them to 'settle' into 'villages', those Nomads ALSO traveled vast distances (following cariboo/reindeer), on land, which like deserts, had no landmarks as there are in the south (trees, rivers, towns, ROADS);
___in fact, for several months of the year, the sun does not even rise; they also were master navigators on terrain where there are no roads. Some are still alive...
@@redleaf4902 Dan's idea of Pre-Islamic Arabia seems to be a strange mixture of the SIN and what life was like in the Nabatean kingdom in the 2nd century AD. I think this doesn't result in a very reliable picture of life back then. Strangely, Dan also has largely ignored the pre-Islamic Christian sects in his studies. (I have this in by his own admission.) But we can see from Thomas' work how hugely important it is to look at these groups as it explains a lot about how Islamic came about.
@@Speakers154 _☘_ Merci Lad. ...I've a vague reccollection, while we were up at the High Sacrificial Place, my O.T. professor saying that one theory about who carved it, and WHEN, put the creation of the altar as going back, like really back, into pre-histoy times, dating it to be over 20,000 years old. That memory is at odds with much of what I have read about it...
I have a very doubt that if the ummayads didnt fight any wars then who were the people who fought battle of tours in 732 and saved europe who were these people what did they really fought against?
@@yakovmatityahu trinitarian v anti trinitarian
Fascniating. Thomas, can you provide the primary /secondary sources for the bio of Abd al Rahman as you say? The details of the monastery? Also reliable details for Resafa? Many thanks
Great idea!
He is writing a book, I will buy it and give it to friends, I am sure it will have notes. Thomas is German after all
If you do a google search you can find the Bascillica of Saint Sergius in Resafa still standing there....he is taking about that probably.
@@universalflamethrower6342 Deutsch Quality 👍
@@yakovmatityahu Txs. Will hunt down, but if you have the link.....
In the European genetic maps, Spain only has 10% Berber DNA, the rest of the Spanish DNA is European (90%). It is curious that if it is true that there was an occupation of 7 centuries in the south of Spain, the genetic legacy is so low. On the other hand, Spain is the third most ethnically uniform country in Europe after Iceland and Ireland.
What's wrong in being a Berber? Ancient Egypt, one of the greatest civilisations ever is of Berber stock.
@@markkuuss There is nothing wrong with Berber DNA, why do you say that...? I AM EXPLAINING THAT IT IS VERY RARE THAT AFTER THE PASSAGE OF THE MUSLIMS THROUGH SPAIN THERE IS ONLY 10% OF DNA, BERBER, ALSO THERE IS NO ARAB DNA IN SPAIN... It is easy to understand my point, right...?
Lamentablemente muy poco hispanoparlante en los comentarios. Esta es nuestra historia. ¡Bravo! Excelente trabajo.
@jdnw85 maybe it's time for you to make Spanish translations ;) someone has to pick up the slack, start the ball rolling :)
Somos pocos, pero algunos somos los que estamos al tanto de todas estas nuevas investigaciones y estamos tomando buena nota de ellas.
Aquí estamos. Al fin parece que nuestra madre españa no fue conquistada tan rápida ni tan fácil. Fue una transición a través de unos siglos por lo cual se deshizo con la Reconquista Católica.
Llevo años investigando el tema a través del arte, que es realmente lo que tenemos en España y siempre me pareció obvió que lo que llaman arquitectura árabe no es más que una copia de la persa. Los árabes no tienen arquitectura propia, no hay restos arqueológicos en la península Arábiga. Es evidente que unos nómadas que vivían en "jaimas" poco o nada tienen de arquitectos, por no hablar de las técnicas de regadío y otras aportaciones que nos han vendido como árabes, que simplemente no se sostienen de ninguna manera.
@@joseantoniocastro1486 Entonces en que quedará Pelayo y Asturias? Ya no sería el ultimo refugio de los Cristianos en España, si no fue más específicamente el refugio de los Visigodos Católicos?
This session was awesome. These historical criticisms are going to bring the evil cult of the shin to its knees. I pray the Triune God blesses and protects both of you. May our Lord Jesus Christ send the Holy Spirit to continue to enlighten you with wisdom and understanding of the truth.
Interesting pattern: Dome of the Rock to assert anti-trinitarianism by building above the Church of Holy Sepulcher; Umayyad mosque of Damascus built on top of the Church of St John the Baptist; Great Mosque of Cordoba built on top of the central church of Cordoba. This seems to have been a standard Umayyad practice.
I read that the Great Mosque was actually only built from 785. Prior to that, the existing church was shared. That sharing in itself is a fascinating clue. Was this a church originally controlled by Spanish Catholics or Arians? If Arians, this would make even more sense that the two groups would share space: they agreed on many points theologically.
Thankyou
Another deep dive
GOD BLESS you
It's just wow! This things finally makes a lot of sense.
Thank you Thomas and Dr Jay.
Portuguese here, from the south of Portugal. Thks for the info.
Hey 👋 do you have Moor still living there?
@@yakovmatityahu no, no moors living here
@@donkeyhead68 ohk my friend i am from india...tc
@@yakovmatityahu yakov is not very indian lol
@@donkeyhead68 my real name given by parents is Jacob Mathew but i use Hebrew name because i love Jewish history and Israel.
Wow! this is REALLY interesting history!
God bless you all!
Watching Jay Smith being this open to the truth, and being this genuine, is like watching Glenn Beck being schooled by Michael Malice on liberty. Just can't wait for Glenn to find the ultimate red-pill / white-pill and to renounce his Mormonism. So so beautiful!
This is great material.
One question though: it seems that Archbishop Elipandus agreed that Jesus was the Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, but he also believed that the human nature of Jesus, the son of David, was adopted by God. So he was not exactly an anti-trinitarian (just as Nestorius was not anti-trinitarian but was still heterodox). His theology seems to fall somewhere between Nestorian and Arian in your table of Christian currents. Maybe Elipandus just shows the ongoing christological uncertainties in Spain, which after all had lived for centuries with an Arian Christian overclass (the first Catholic King of the Lombards in Italy was in 653). And might he have been trying to make peace between different theological/political factions?
Arab anti-trinitarians would have fit into this mix of theologies well.
Fascinating that people complained about the youth learning Arabic and then the Quran and Muhammad appeared. So this adoption of culture preceded and provided the fertile ground for the religion.
Given the linguistic barrier, isn't it possible that Spanish Catholic authorities were unaware of an earlier spread of the Quran/Muhammad? That Bishop Eulogius had realized late what the Arabs were thinking?
Rahman built the mosque of Cordoba but what services took place there? Were they in Arabic? Were they in Latin? Were they under the jurisdiction and supervision of the Archbishop of Toledo? Do we have any record of Arab religious leaders before 850?
@@charlesiragui2473 I would think that population was much smaller back then, also true for the elite ruling class and clergy. So ideas would have quickly been communicated through the educated.
Thanks Thomas. Your research is bringing the truth to light
Hi Thomas, when will you discuss the Merv origin of the Quran and the Buddhist connection to Islam? Anxiously waiting
(Here your sound is clipping, but on your channel its clear.. strange?)
It turns out the Islamic Golden Age wasn’t Islamic, it was non-trinitarian age. The Islamic system does not support learning, which is why only 3 muslims as of today have earned Nobel Prizes in academic subjects.
Excellent point! Islam is contrary to learning and reason, and it is becoming more so as time países.
To be fair, Bishop Elipandus was dealing with some really, really wacky religious movements and heresies, including That One Guy who thought David was the incarnation of God the Father, or something equally bizarre. He apparently had some rather wacky ideas himself, though, as he thought that an Adoptionist reading of the wording of Mozarabic Mass stuff would unite the Arian and wacky christological stuff back into orthodoxy.
Problem was that he didn't understand orthodox Christology himself, and he got very irate when schooled on it by St. Beatus of Liebana (because Liebana was hicksville up north in the mountains, and Toledo was the big city as well as the primate city for Hispania's Christians).
Nasty, nasty letterwriter, that Elipandus. But I don't think he _actually_ thought that he was anti-Trinitarian. Seriously. I mean, I'll go and re-read, but I think he was just clueless and a trend-follower.
Forget to say wonderful and amazing work Thomas ... Thank you and thanks to Doc for you ... 😅😂
Fascinating 👍
14:15 Great video, but could you please clarify about the Ibadi Christians tipping over to islam? Why would they "tip over" to islam if they only agree with islam about non-trinitarianism, but - as Christians - surely disagree with the rest of the package?
In fact, could you also elaborate, what was Ibadi Christianity?
We’ve gone over the “tipping over process” in the previous videos. The rationale in Umayyad Spain would have been the same as that in the Abbasid East. Only it happened with a slight delay, but then all the more forceful.
As for the Ibadi, they were anti-Trinitarian Christians. Possibly some of the very first Arabs to become Christian. There were some sectarian differences compared to Abd al-Malik’s form of anti-Trinitarianism, but they seem to be mostly regarding the question of governance.
Do you guys have a compilation of citations for this stuff? Not saying I don't agree with the analysis, just that this stuff needs to be added to the Wikipedia page on the Historicity of the Quran. Albar of Qordoba's quote for instance, a good compelling paper talking about Albar could be extremely useful to merit its inclusion. This is amazing stuff guys. Deeply researched and deeply compelling. Putting the final SIN together is going to take years, I feel like, you need deep qualified researchers, and I'll buy the book.
I’m mainly relying on Johannes Thomas and his article “Frühe Spanische Zeugnisse zum Islam”
It is freely available on the Inarah website (in three parts) and it contains all the references to primary and secondary literature.
@@TAlexander thanks so much, I saw you mentioned it down thread as well, a trove of information here, I think that it's in a different language is why it didn't cross my radar when I searched at least that specific tome, but Google translate is working well on the particular article.
If laws where respected the Qur'an and Islam altogether would be banned in most Western countries.
Different moral paradigm. One is based on Christainity, the other on Islam.
In old Maltese (Siculo-Arabic language) "Qibla" meant South. Mecca is more Western than Southern to Malta. Thomas let me know where to send more info if it is of interest.
Charlemagne son and his army were a blessing in disgiuse for the basque people ..avoided Islamic occupation..the Poem of Roland is a famous poem about this battle.
THIS is what needs to be in our standard history books!
Thomas, can you do a talk on this "new" muhammed religion when it was first described in Spain. Was the original muhammed, as first introduced in Spain, simply "the praised one" (Jesus), or had the fictional muhammed finally been invented and it was that that was introduced? If so, then what were people told about the fictional muhammed? How would they have been so persuaded? When did the transformation from Jesus to "muhammed" occur in Spain?
The polemics which were brought against Muhammad around 850 AD were against the prophet of Islam. I have not come across any evidence that Jesus was ever called the "Muhammad" in Hispania. But then the Arabic language wasn't as established in the early days. Neither Berbers nor Visigoths nor the Spaniards would have spoken it. Also, When Hispania was taken over by Arabs and Berbers, the term Muhammad for Jesus was already on its last legs in the East anyway. Remember that the last piece of evidence we have stems from 756 AD.
@@TAlexander Thanks. I am still baffled by how they managed this subterfuge in the East. That they could dream up a fictional character, give him a history and biography, patch together a "book" based on early lectionaries and old stories, and then sell this to populations with established religions going back hundreds to thousands of years. I suppose the violence helped.
@jazzymiles miles
You must be STANDING on one "leg " the WORD Muhammed is a title not a NAME so your fasle kangaroo religion hijacked everything to create Islam
WITH no reasonable doubt Islam comes from a HERETIC Christianity
@jazzymiles miles
You gamble on one family converting to islam
WHAT about the 6million Muslims who left Islam in 2020?
And to sour the situation
Father Zacharia said he can't count how many Sheiks have disclosed to him that they are no longer Muslims and yet they are still leading prayers in mosques
Today we have thousands of thousands of apostates inside Those mosques don't be fooled Muslims are cutting those satanic ties
@jazzymiles miles
Are you a fool I just told you what you have isapostate sheiks who have already declared thier apostacy but are afraid to say it cos of Sharia law
If Sharia could be banned you will not see Islam again
Muslims are flogging in churches in masses denouncing Islam in secret
Mindblowing Thomas 👍.. btw, there is the article "Yah", in Muawi-Yah, and when I checked wikipedia, it is stated that it has "disputed meaning", sounds suspicious LOL, anyone have a hint on this? (Anyway there is the word muawwidzatain, in which muawwi there means "I seek refuge", so perhaps "I seek refuge to Yah"?)
First comment. Again, fascinating video.
Interesting that you guys are so passionate about this topic. "Surely the lady do protest too much..."
Excellent video
Two minutes in: had to pause and go listen to a song:
___Gitans ___ Compagnons de la chanson___
D'où vviens-tu Gitan?
Je viens de Bohême
D'où viens-tu Gitan?
Je viens d'Italie
Et toi, beau Gitan?
De l'Andalousie
Et toi vieux Gitan, oh d'où viens-tu?
Je viens d'un pays qui n'existe plus....
💃🕺
Okay. In the right mood now for this presentation.
My new favourite quote:
"And that's the primary evidence we have from Spain;
and, again, it goes completely against the Traditional Standard Islamic Narrative, and supports what we've seen, when we looked at the history in the East,
how this Anti-Trinitarian Christianity evolved into Islam."
Et voilà!
or, should I say,
Holé!
or,
Holy Toledo!
...So, I finished about ten minutes ago.
Just came back to check, in case the next episode was available.
Excellent Thomas, Excellet... the things you said put in perspective many-may things I knew inside Spain-Portugal history.... I I may I said an addendum, It was a surprise for me wen it forst came out the DNA studies of Spain, what astonish me the most, even If I suspected before, it´s that there isn´t a "cline" in arab or bereber genes inside Spain, on the contrary, the "cline" is of hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers from west to east of Iberia diluting itself with yamnaya.... The picture you can get from any place of Europe were the yamnaya genes spread out .... but not Bereber o Arab genes.... even inside the principal component of all europe western Asia and northen Africa Spain remain inside the cluster of europeans without any distortions .....
The point here, and i now that from the XV to the XVIII centuries a large migration of muslims took place out of spain (mostly driven from revolts).... the mozarabs (Cristians) must had some degree of introgression even if strict rules of no muslim can have a non muslim offspring was in place.....
Your talk clarified me a lot in that regard, they not needed to put in to Spain a lot of Arabs and berebers to really have initial inertia for controlling the peninsula!!!!... It´s incredible, even Goths genes and repopulation of the "extremaduras" genes can be traced, strongly, in the genetic make-up of today Spanish and Portuguese, but not bereber or arab genes except for the non statistically robust suggestion of the Nazarí Kingdom lands (Granada, Málaga, Almería and parts of Murcia) could have some small trace.
The other thing (unrelated) is islamic architecture, I was aware of the Visigoth (early romanic), Roman (Bizantine) influence inside the muslim architecture in spain, but you gave to me the last part, persian influence.... the same thing you can find in western Sicily
In few words (again unrelated) , the almoravids and almohads fanatic sunni invasons were the ones that REALLY caused so much stress inside the peninsula that the Cristian kingdoms of the North had it´s way to the reconquista
I have never looked into this genetic side of things, thanks for bringing it up. It’s great how the puzzle pieces fall into place.
As for the amount of men needed. Hans Delbrück wrote a seminal book in the late 19th century, analysing wars from antiquity to the Napoleonic wars. His conclusion was that the migration period armies were much (!!!) smaller than traditionally believed. He mainly looked at the logistical side of things and concluded that none of the Barbarian invaders had more than 15.000 fighting men. But that was enough to subdue entire nations like Italy (Ostrogoths) and Spain (Visigoths). These new rulers oftentimes razed all defensive structures within their new kingdoms because they wouldn’t have had the men to besiege rebellious cities.
That would also fit the idea of a comparatively small invasion force.
One unrelated side notes on the genetics. I did a 23andMe sequencing and uploaded the result to a page called MyTrueAncestry where you can match your DNA with that of samples taken from archaeological digs all around the world. My closest match happens to be a Visigoth woman from North-Eastern Spain who died around 550 AD, which is a fun discovery. I don’t have a good explanation for this as I can trace my family back for centuries, so any relation must be on a population level and can’t be due to a single recent ancestor of mine. But my family is not from anywhere near where the Visigoths ever lived. So I have two hypotheses: Either it’s a Suebi connection (my family has lived for centuries in the Southern German region where the Suebi settled) or it’s common ancestry.
The other top matches are mostly Longobards who supposedly were a side-branch of the Suebi, so that would also fit both hypotheses.
So when and why were those Mosques built in Spain, Algeria and Morocco? Those first mosques with their Qiblas oriented towards Mozambique, parallel to an imaginary line from Petra to present day mecca in Saudi Arabia?
Hasham probably did not trust the "swamp politics" in Damascus. He could then award key aspects of a new city to his trusted men without imbedded opposition.
I've been following this series with Thomas. It is looking very much like Islam is nothing more than a christian cult, likened to that of Mormonism, JW etc.
Brings to mind what Messiah Jesus said in Matt 16:6 "beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" and what Paul said in Gal 5:9 "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". Incorrect teaching on a single matter can snowball to a point where entire new religions are established.
Does Eulogius use the same word for Christ and Muhamed in his writings?
Herein lies new information, thank you, Thomas! Can I get the correct spelling of the [Casians]?
They relocated because he didn’t like mosquitoes 😂 later they built mosques : hey, perhaps a mosque stands for mosquito shelter!!! Hahaha
Just kidding of course.
Great work brothers! The whole SIN thing is just falling apart!
the word mosque was invented in spain and refers to mosquitoes, so I've been told.
@@Speakers154 wow, that’s fascinating! In Arabic, they use masjid for mosque.
So how does this relate in context to the Batt;e of Tours 732.
It doesn’t really have an impact on it. It happened pretty much as the history books tell us. It’s just that it wasn’t Muslims who fought there but anti-Trinitarians. But then the old chronicles never mention a different religion. So it all fits.
Don’t call it Al-Andalus or Andalusia-the conquerors’ name.
yes
It is called Andalusia to this day. There is no Spanish name for it. Andalus is derived from "Vandals", the first inhabitants..
@@markkuuss Andalucia is Spain, don't talk nonsense, and the name derives from the name that the VANDALS gave to the region, Germanic tribes, ... On the OTHER HAND, in Spain Andalusia and the BETICA region are SYNONYMS... Andalucia can also be called BETICA. Study a little history, you'll learn things.
""There is no Spanish name for it"" Do you have any cognition problem?
Do you know that ALL of North Africa was Christian TERRITORY and the Berbers were CHRISTIANS before the Muslim invasion?....
Could you show more references in the video. Pictures of text, images...
The Church has records in written form since the time of the apostles (New Testament), and we know every single popes since St. Peter, every exact dates they sat in the holy see. They should have known the details about how these heretics transformed into a new religion. I'm sure there are more than enough written records about this kept somewhere in the Church archives. The question is, why won't the Church shed a light?
Unlike the bible which was then written on parchment a lot of these other records probably were written on papyrus. Also given that they don't form part of the theological beliefs and are just communication the desire to preserve them would be low. On the other hand we still have letters from the students of the disciples preserved because this formed part of the teaching and theology (example would be Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians from the 2nd century)
Very interesting theory. But how to mix it with the frankish chronicles describing the muslim armies stopped in 732 at the battle of Poitiers/Tours? Or texts from the Charlemagne (742-814) court talking about the Spanish muslims?
These chronicles do not mention Islam or Muslims. The enemies are merely called Saracens. Some translators choose to translate Saracens as Muslims, but that's not what the texts say.
@@TAlexander. Thanks Thomas for the answer. But I thought that the word ‘Saracens’ was used to describe the muslims. If it’s not the case, what did Saracens mean?
@@iparipaitegianiparipaitegi4643 Saracens is an ethnic description, not a religious one. The term has been used centuries before the rise of Islam. For example Claudius Ptolemy already used the term in the 2nd century.
During the Middle Ages it eventually took on the meaning of something like "Arab Muslim", but that was a later development.
@@TAlexander danke
I almost skipped the Spain segment but im glad i didn't. Very good research to show that Christ is heart of the Church and Islam.
The same happened in Morocco in Almoravid/Almohad sunni dinasties who learnt Islam in Bagdad, Islam was so "new" that they even did the Adhan in Amazigh/Berber language in the century XII.
And in theory North Africa was a strong muslim province since Uqba ibn Nafia!!
All Islamic narrative it's a lie.
I think you're overreaching slightly regarding what can reasonably be inferred from citing Matthew. During the evolution of Islam, there was presumably a period of time when some people accepted the Qur'an as important or authoritative but many others did not. In such a period, people who themselves regarded the Qur'an as important or authoritative needed to use the Bible instead of the Qur'an when discussing and debating theological points with people who would be more likely to condemn the Qur'an as heretical than to accept it as authoritative. Thus, using Matthew as a source seems consistent with the possibility that there may have been a significant number of Muslims or proto-Muslims who believed the Qur'an, but that the Qur'an had not yet become accepted widely enough for trying to use it as a source of authority to be useful in discussion and debate outside the community of Muslims or proto-Muslims.
This series is presenting some great information. Thanks!
I said in the video that we can't conclude that there was no Quran, only that it wouldn't have been used as scripture. If the anti-Trinitarians use the Gospel of Matthew, it tells us that this was scripture for them. In fact, I think it's very possible that the Quran was present by the 9th century. But it would have been used more as a lectionary than as scripture. In the East, it would have been scripture by that point.
Well, that is certainly possible, but more likely, as Thomas implied, they are two different cults (berbers - go Matthew & ibadi - quran) , both anti trinitians, that join hands to seize control of iberia from the catholic/orthodox clergies.
@@TAlexander My point was that the status of the Quran as "scripture" probably evolved over time. Assuming you are right about Islam evolving from Christianity, there was almost certainly not a time when everyone woke up and said, "We are going to stop using the Bible as scripture and start using the Quran." Instead, there were almost certainly periods of time (different in different places) when people continued viewing the Bible as being at least mostly authoritative while the Quran was growing in authority. That would logically lead to situations where proto-Muslims viewed the Quran as scripture or as having a status close to scripture among themselves but continued to use the Bible as common ground when discussing and debating theological issues with Christians who did not accept the Quran as having any special authority, or especially who would be likely to brand them as heretics if they claimed publicly that the Quran had more authority than the Bible.
Thus, quoting Matthew in discussion and debate between different Christian factions tells us little about how much progress the Quran had made toward being accepted as scripture when proto-Muslims thought about religious matters and discussed religious matters with each other. There is a broad spectrum of possibilities ranging from still viewing the Quran essentially as just a lectionary, to privately believing that the Quran was more authoritative than the Bible but viewing it as bad strategy to argue publicly that the Quran should be accepted as authoritative.
It appears that perhaps the expansion of Arabs and Berbers was the result of plague in the more settled regions of the Byzantine Empire, creating a vacuum that facilitated the Arabs moving into Syria, Palestine and Egypt. They then pushed across North Africa as well where Berbers were similarly living pastoral lifestyles that did not help the spread of plague and helped their numbers to stay higher vis-a-vis the farming and trading peoples. Also, in studying St. Augustine one learns that there were strong anti-orthodox/catholicism religious movements there in his day (Donatism) - so their descendants might have been more receptive to an alternative form of christianity as well. Not sure about that, just speculation..
This has been fabulous. However, three things: 1) I wonder how much parallel can be found in the waves of religious change from Trinitarian to anti-Trinitarian to Muslim belief in the official religion with the changes in Tudor and post Tudor England from Catholic to Anglican to Puritanism. I know that in the English case there were no changes in the ruling class but the changes were made from the top and belief changed much more slowly, or not at all lower down.
2) you say after one point Trinitarianism was over in Spain, this reminds me about social historians when they make the ridiculous claims about women being absent from the work force. Women of a certain class may not worked, but women have always worked. There would have been plenty of Trinitarian peasants.
Please please please Dr. Jay, please do not continue the background music when the conversation starts. Sometimes it is difficult to understand with accents and the music exacerbates the issue. Thank you.
Thank you for managing this valuable discussion. I have a question from Mr. Thomas. The answer to this question can clarify many ambiguities about the origin of Islam and the formation of this religion from the Christian sects.
The result of a century research on the history of the beginning of Islam shows that the Qur'an was initially rooted in religious/Christian recitation, poems and songs from the Bible or Christian apocryphal beliefs, which were in Syriac/Aramaic language and were recited in religious ceremonies. These poems were translated into Arabic during the time of Abdul Malik Marwan; and in a process of 200 years, these Christian poems resulted in the Meccan surahs of the Quran (in comparison of Medina surahs of Quran which relates to jurisdiction). Evidence confirming this hypothesis could be the Qurans that the Umayyads believed in, compiling and developing during the 800 years they ruled in Spain. Because Umayyads believed in Christianity, must have developed completely a different Quran from Abbasids, which ruled in Baghdad. And since the Abbasid family, who ruled in Baghdad, compiled and developed their own Qur'an, the comparison between of these two Umayyad and Abbasid Qur'ans, which evolved separately from each other, can clarify many ambiguities about the Christian origins of Islam.
My question: Is the Umayyad's Quran available?
Although this is very interesting material put together but it would make more sense if references are provided as footnotes for verification
Thanks for the materials confirming my own thought where geopolitics was behind all of this and the early of Islam was all Christians (anti-trinitarians) as well. the hated of this anti-trinitarians people escalated on that era by building an army and end up took over many lands. well once people in reign they tend to invent something different breakaway from its major line, same motives with 1940s Nazi trying to make another type of Christian. Arianism is one of major Christian beliefs at that time where leaving trinitiarianism/ Catholism at Rome and Romans Empire, and war against Rome is mentioned as major line in their book as the final.
Amazing
Does this theory fits Gibson's findings?
Pelayo and the founding of Asturias then would now turn out to be not necessarily the last Christian holdout Kingdom after Islamic invasion, but maybe just a Catholic Visigothic refuge/stronghold after the fall of Visigothic control to the Arabs?
same thing, no?
I have a big doubt about Battle of Tours 732 if it did happen or not...because historicans tell that the battle decided the future of europe...if that battle is real then who fought who.
@@yakovmatityahu Catholic Franks versus Arian Berbers and Arabs
@@fantasia55 ohk thanks for the info.
@@fantasia55 Well in the standard narrative we would understand Asturias to be a last refuge for all types of Christians, with Muslims having conquered the peninsula. But in the new version, Christianity would have continued for some time until Islam finally evolved from it. So Asturias would seem to really just be the Catholic Visigothic nobility that the Arabs replaced. The Arian Visigoths probably didn’t retreat to Asturias.
Very interesting
I hope their is a German school like inara who could do a Research on origins of Hinduism...its a very vast topic but i can tell that Hinduism has formed in india in the same way as Islam in Arabia...we need a school for Origins of Hinduism study it started with Aryans of Central Asia.
This is astonishing. Tell more, please.
@@rafapal4519 what i meant was that their is no school or group who is doing research into the origins of Hinduism like many are doing in case of Islam....Hinduism looks like a very mysterious religion but if you study it its not...it can be understood where it came from...for sure its formation was not as easy as a century or two...it took its current form in a millenium or two...so their is a need to systematically study the origins of Hinduism
@@rafapal4519 but their is a big minus point...unlike Islam judaism or Christianity...scholars will find to do research on Hinduism to be very difficult...because the history of hinduism doesnt have much document evidence or written evidences from ancient times...its totally reliant on the hindu scriptures which tell about the origins...we dont have any contemporary sources for hinduism...
@@rafapal4519 but one thing of help for scholars would be a great amount of archeological evidences especially after Emperor Ashoka 3rd cen BC...but before Ashoka we have virtually no good evidence to build origins of hinduism except what hindus claim as their scriptures i.e vedas and upanishads which i don't believe are much older either.
@@rafapal4519 scholars will find origins of Hinduism to be a very tough nut to crack especially in details...like they have done in case of Islam...
Seems like the recurring theme is that the 800s are the tipping point of the transition from non-trinitarian Christianity to Islam. Which is a great coincidence since get the SIN in the same period.
They should first make the paradise in the Arabia peninsula as Romans and Greeks did in their homelands
Lo que dice este hombre ya lo había comentado Ignacio Olague
Yes, I’m relying in parts on his work. Although Olagüe’s revisionism may be a bit too extreme in some parts.
Very interesting. I have learned a lot! Thank you! But the antitrinitarian views come from an antichristian movement and not from inside christianity. They used also antitrinitarian christians minorities of heretics that always existed, people that have lost the faith. But the movement comes from Persia.
Abd al Rahman lived in which Monastry? Of which Christian faction?
It was a monastery in Qinnasrin called Dair Hanna (Monastery of St. Anna), in the North-East of modern day Israel. I couldn’t find anything on the denomination. Given its location, I’d guess it was Jacobite.
Source: Ajbar Machmuâ. Crónica arábiga del siglo XI, dada á luz por primera vez, trad. y anotada pour Don Emilio Lafuente y Alcántara.
Once upon a time, there were some people that were not happy. They were happy, but not as happy as they might’ve been and certainly unhappier as other people at their times.
Wow. How can someone keep a straight face with such arguments?
See and blind, Hear and deaf. History is right before Muslims eyes and they(some) are just so stubborn to accept there are HOLES in the HOLY Quran/Koran(S.I.N).....
The SIN is addictive, it gives you this holier then thou aura while you actually identify with debauchery.
Christianity is even worse
Is it possible that when these anti-Trinitarians were using the Gospel of Matthew to support their view, that it was in fact the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew?
It seems like the Pseudo Matthew, which only appeared in the century preceding Elipandus, does not take an anti-trinitarian point of view. All the infancy gospels rather point to Jesus's divine nature from birth and even before birth in the holy history of Mary.
Strangely, the anti-trinitarian Quran borrows heavily from these infancy gospels (story of Mary, virgin birth, clay bird brought to life by Jesus's breath), at the same time as adopting a strongly anti-trinitarian doctrine. (This kind of backs up what you're thinking: anti-trinitarian thought could coexist with the infancy gospels.)
I wonder whether Thomas will speak about this seeming contradiction within the Quran. Is this apochrypha material in the Quran of an earlier vintage and Abd al Malik layered the anti-trinitarian material onto the lectionary? Did anti-trinitarian Syrian theology favor the infancy gospels?
On Elipandus, it would seem that he was in close communication with Catholic theologians across Western Europe, who strongly denounced his theology. So he would seem to be a mere divergence from Catholicism, well aware of and revering the Gospel of Matthew as Scripture.
@@charlesiragui2473 I can't see how they(the anti-trinitarians) would interpret the actual Gospel of Matthew as supporting their Christology. Not unless the Islamic doctrine that lying is acceptable in defense of the faith was already well established. An alternative may be that some how, in some way, they were already using an Arabic mistranslation of a Aramaic Gospel of Matthew. We need more data.
@@chrishoff402 Yes, that is why I believe Thomas should not be calling this Spanish "heresy" anti-trinitarian. Archbishop Elipandus agreed that Jesus was the Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, but he also believed that the human nature of Jesus, the son of David, was adopted by God. So he was not exactly an anti-trinitarian (just as Nestorius was not anti-trinitarian but was still heterodox). His theology seems to fall somewhere between Nestorian and Arian in Thomas's table of Christian currents.
@@chrishoff402 But on the other hand, the Germanic Arians who ruled Western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire were absolutely anti-trinitarians. They denied the divinity of Jesus.
Or not. To be fair, Arius himself was at the Council of Nicaea. So it would seem that interpretation could bring readers of the 4 gospels to a view that Jesus was not God, not divine, just a man. This view was condemned at Nicaea. I do not know much about the practices of the Germanic Arians of the 6th and 7th centuries. Did they use the 4 gospels? Did they have alternative scriptures?
Sorry if this question has been asked before.
Did the christians in Spain at the time know about Islam being something distinct from this anti-trinitarian christian sect?
As I understand it there was this spread of an anti-trinitarian Christain sect that was later co-opted by Islam.
What I don't understand is why the ummayyads, who were originally anti-trinitarian christians, accepted to convert to sunni islam (hadiths, tafsir and sira), which was invented by the abbassids who were the arch ennemies of the ummayyads ?
Has there been some kind of reconciliation ?
TROLL ALERT **ALONZO HARRIS**
ikr I have been demanding him to debunk my content for about four months now and he stated he would debunk my videos but he has never followed through for he is ibn fibbn chicken
Agree. He insults, whines and refuses to engage with the material and sources.
He is a permanent soucre for humor however.
Interesting but a bit thin on evidence for the scale of a sudden flip and the mechanisms. There is also a traditional Western narrative on this to be overturned - one of North v South, elite v majority, urban v rural. Also clergy tend to have tunnel vision for their flock rather than other growing demographics and as we see in recent history are often the last to notice. Traditional allegations around conversion concerned enslavement, taxation, marriage rules although is that later under stricter Sunni rules?
Maimonides refers to Muhammad in his guide for the perplexed and I don’t understand how that fits in and I haven’t got any answers for it
Moses ben Maimon, 1138-1204. That's a lot later.
@@suburbanbanshee thankyou
One of the slides has the term "Ibadi Christianity", but this is not mentioned during th presentation. There is something called Ibadi Islam and in a previous Thomas presented the idea of an "Ibadi tribe", but the concept of "Ibadi Christianity" appear to be new concept, so it needs some explanation
In the histories, they’re either referred to as Ibadi or Lakhmids. They originally came from the region around Hira (as indicated in the last video) from where they moved into Northern Africa during the Byzantine-Sasanian war and later into Spain.
They were anti-Trinitarian Christians. The Islamic sect is a later development.
@@TAlexander "A later development" is not very precise. Does that mean that you do not believe in Ibadi coins from 840 CE?
@@PeterHarremoes By “a later development”, I meant later than the events of the 7th and early 8th century I described.
To be honest, I’m not familiar with the 9th century coins you mentioned, but the Ibadi already minted coins in the 7th century.
They were also supporters of Zuhayr’s, so there seem to have been sectarian differences already in the 7th century, albeit within an anti-Trinitarian Christian framework.
@@TAlexander There are various coins from the 7th century with Kharijite slogans. The Ibadi sect is often considered to part of the Kharijite movement, but as far as I know the Kwarijite coins from 7th century are minted by other branches of the Kharijite movement than the Ibadi sect. In Sinaw in Oman the is a hoard of about 900 coins that are distinct Ibadi. Their dating is uncertain, but the experts say that the burial of the coins took place around 840 CE. That means that these Ibadi coins are older than 840 CE. Is it the Kharijite coins from the 7th century that you claim are anti-trinitarian Christian or do you claim that Oman was Christian, or do you refer to some coins from the 7th century that are from the ibadi sect and not from some other branch of the Kharijite movement?
@@PeterHarremoes I’ve read an article on those 7th century coins where the author made the argument that one can distinguish between Kharijites and Ibadi coins. Either way, these groups were closely aligned.
As for Oman, we know that there were Christians in the 7th century and before. I haven’t looked at Oman in detail though, so I couldn’t tell you how many there were and if it would be fair to say Oman was Christian. Though from what I remember, there was at the very least a sizeable minority.
What the battle of Tours?
I have the same question to Thomas...did the battle of Tours never happened or did it.
@@yakovmatityahu He commented that it happened.
Per Dan Gibson Qibla direction tool the Cordoba mosque was built in 784 CE and was in the parallel direction. If it was a church why did it have a qibla? Then there was the Tauste graveyard mosque built in 772 also a parallel direction gibla. I suppose this was a church also. Let us carbon date these Bishop letters.
A similar "parallel qibla" was used in North Africa, and some mosques in North Africa were appearently predate the conquest of Spain. Therefore the use of the "parallel qibla" cannot be explained from the existence of Arian Christians in Spain.
@@PeterHarremoes Good point. The fact that there are qiblas in these so called churches of the anti-Trinitarian destroys the idea they are just a flavor of Christianity. Where in scripture does everyone having to pray in the same direction come from? That alone shows Thomas's premise is false.
@@501Mobius According to the Bible the second coming of Jesus will be from the east. Therefore Christians should pray facing east and the churches should be oriented accordingly. Christian graves should be oriented with the head pointing west and the feet pointing east. In this way the Christians should just sit up in their grave to face the second coming of Jesus. In some periods these ideas have been important for the Christians.
@@PeterHarremoes That is true. That is how the archeologists identify the religion of bodies in graves in some countries.
@@501Mobius Yes, in Denmark this is one of the ways that we can distinguish early Christian graves from pagan graves.
In the Mozarabic Chronicles there is never any mention of a new religion, not even Islam or Muslim, they are called Saracens or Ismaelites. There is a very interesting quote that says: King Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr was killed in Mecca (the house of Abraham, according to their own opinion), a city that is located in the desert between Ur of the Chaldeans and Carras of Mesopotamia.
It would be interesting if Thomas or someone else finds out that the caliphs were christian.
Worse, if the caliphs died as christians.
The early Caliphs were indeed Anti Trinitarian ebonite christians
@@yakovmatityahu Most likely.
How about coins from that time in Spain? Any clues about its gnostic origin. Or any surviving sculptures or paintings or any surviving edicts etc
Or any secular literature telling us stories of that time in Spain?
Clearly the conquering people were Arabic language speakers...but what else? Burial rites or positions or direction?
were they polygamous? The believers? Did they talked about Haji or Macca?
The question Is Always the same.
When the slave trader with the pumpkin on the head, with his brigants, his harem's sacks of rubbish, and his prophet has come out in the time of history?
That's why we need to study our own Christian history not others like made by Islam...The problem is most western scholars used secondary sources instead of primary sources from Eastern Christian Churches...Spain has his own Christian Churches history...Spain was conquered by Islam as most of European countries...
Wish you'd turn that irritating music off much more quickly
Oh to understand early Islam is to understand antitritheism, is to understand catholicism (gotta love that Iraqian ubber driver that dropped me off yesterday). Us protestant never had it so good, oh how we do respect the catholic church so much more now! Big hats off (zucchetto) to the glory of the catholic church! as an postmillennialism realist, the catholic church throughout history is that most reliable vehicle. As an institution that is human, Yes it's not perfect, but it does get you through to Jesus for the most part throughout all of human history! Jesus is not done yet with that institution! gotta love it! name a more successful institution? Jesus is that ultimate true archetype in the sky/ that is governing, sitting on his throne now just outside our universe, totally in control throughout all of human history. If you deny him that God title, that early, we can see now what happens! you get totally owned! how victorious is he? this is just the beginning! I'm sure this is the iceberg scenario etc.
Protestant Church must acknowledge and respect the Chatolic church as the protector of Christianity against Islam.
So Charlamge instead against Islam fought against Anti-Trinitarian invaders from Spain .... which still would still result in the Catholic Church of the time supporting and exalting him for that ....
you should check real crusades channel
The guy that runs that channel is a bit of a goose. I had a run in with him once for questioning one of his claims. Haven't bothered with him since.
That channel accepts the SIN.
Was this anti-Trinitarian push spontaneous or driven by the new Arab authorities?