REDGARD FAILED FLOOD TEST!!! --- Why Did it CRACK and BUBBLE UP???
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Redgard waterproofing membrane is one of the most popular products used when tiling a shower. Because of its availability at Home Depot and ease of use, Redgard is the waterproof membrane of choice for many DIY'ers and Contractors. Because Redgard is a roll-on or paint brush applied product it is easier to use than Schluter Kerdi or Oatey pan liners.
I did this test because I see so many people use it at the wrong rate of application and I wanted to see how it performs when applied to the rate as specified in the technical data sheet (TDS). In order to meet IAMPO standards for a shower pan, Redgard must be applied in two coats at a rate of 80 square feet per gallon for each coat. One gallon of Redgard will cover 40 square feet at this rate.
My test module had an area of 2.88 square feet, so I divided 2.88/80 to get the ratio of the test module to the 80 square feet rate as specified. The ratio was .036 or 3.6%. To calculate the amount of Redgard to be applied, I multiplied the ratio (.036) to the gallon in fluid Ounces (128). The amount equaled approximately 4.6 fluid ounces per coat.
The first coat was applied over the dry pack mortar bed in the test module that had cured for 24 hrs. The mortar bed looked dry (light gray in color) and had hardened properly. The surface of the mortar bed was clean, smooth, and free of contaminants. The first coat dried for 24 hrs before applying the the second coat. It was noted that the first coat dried nicely and evenly without any visible cracking.
The second coat was applied in the same manner as the first and allowed to dry for 48 hours. Upon inspection the second coat had cracked significantly in the changes of plane of the test module, notably where the bottom and sides of the test module intersected.
A third coat was applied in the corners to cover the cracks that had formed and allowed to dry for 24 hours after which the water was poured into the test module and allowed to soak under intermittent observation and time lapse video.
Time lapse video showed almost immediate change in color from the dark red (dry) color to the light pink (wet) color of the Redgard. Also, a leak formed in the lower right corner of the module after approximately 60 minutes.
After eight hours, the water was removed from the module and the membrane was inspected. Upon inspection, a small crack was observed in the lower right corner that had leaked. It was noted that this crack had been covered by the third coat previously applied over the cracking that happened after the second coat had dried. Also observed were small bubbles that were filled with water in the surface of the Redgard that covered the mortar bed. The surface of the Redgard that covered the mortar bed was also soft and broke apart easily.
My conclusion is that the Redgard was applied over the mortar bed too soon (24 hours). Even though it is common practice for installers to apply Redgard the next day after the dry pack is installed, this time frame may need to be extended.
To support our channel, please go to www.tilecoach.... to purchase a T-Shirt or other merchandise.
If you would like to see the Schluter Kerdi vs. Laticrete Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane video, here is the link: • Schluter KERDI/ALL-SET...
If you need help on you project, go to www.tilecoach.... to book a time slot with me.
I like this test. Isaac knows already that the mortar should cure for a few days before applying the redguard, but you can't expect the average diyer to know that, because it's not mentioned in the product specs. He also probably knew the layers were a bit too thick, but once again, he followed the product instructions, which is exactly what a diyer should normally do. Illustrates the pitfalls of the product. Thanks again, Isaac!
That TDS says concrete must be cured for 28 days.
@@tinman1955 Even for Dry pack? It contains cement but isn't concrete in any traditional sense. I can't imagine a customer being ok with disappearing for a month between putting in the bed and doing the next steps.
@@Sn0wZer0 "disappearing for a month between putting in the bed and doing the next" ... use Redgard on the walls with full day curing. And use a PVC pan liner over day old bed. Using Redgard on the shower pan itself makes little sense, takes way too long to do carefully and properly, and still would leave me worrying. A $50 pvc liner makes so much more sense for the pan. Quick and easy and total confidence.
The mortar bed need to cure and add water every other day to prevent the blister
@fartpooboxohyeah8611oes like this
1. Mortar preslope
2. Pan liner
3. Mortar
4. Thinset tile
Redgard isn't fully cured until it stays red when wet. It turns red pretty quickly when dry, but you're supposed to sprinkle water on it to test for cure. If the drops turn pink, it's not cured. Depending on humidity, it can take 2 or 3 days to fully cure. You may have just not let it cure long enough. If it's not cured when you do the flood test, it's the same as if you mixed water into the bucket, which is why it turned to mush when you scraped it off. Also, Redgard cracks if it's applied too thickly. I usually apply multiple thinner coats until any cracks stay filled.
I also always let the mortar bed cure till a piece of plastic taped over the surface stays dry, and I use redgard fabric tape (or a cheap knockoff from Amazon) in the corners. Redgard is a great and affordable product when done right, but it takes a lot longer than any of the fabric membrane systems. If you have plenty of stuff to do while you wait, it's a decent option. I'd still do schluter or laticrete if I have the budget.
@@private8559 well it's equivalent to a 30mil pan liner so I'm going to disagree with you there.
My guess is that because your mortar bed was in a plexiglass box, even though it cured, moisture was still present; trapped in the box and sealed by the redgard, hence the blisters.
This is exactly what happened.
No kidding
So is no point in using the red guard, If you have to wait 2-3 days after your pan installation (in the case of a mortar pan).
Yes damp cement
Clever!
Great video! If your're using Redguard I always use mesh tape in the corners. Preferably set in thinset. Also I skim coat my shower sub pan with thinnest after pan has dried. You can also meshtape and Redguard. I think that your coats were just too thick. I apply with a 3/8 roller and a brush in the corners. Run a fan in between coats. Let dry 1-3 days before a water test. Also mesh over your drain to build up your pan liner.
Thank you, Chad
Glass box is an excellent idea, but try using glass box, mud the bottom as you did but put pieces of Durock/cement board on the side walls as if it were an actual shower….. if waterproofing does fail you should still be able to see the moisture through the glass on the Durock…. Just an idea
I agree with Mike G but but simply running cement board into the mortar bed and up the sides and then taping the joint would prove its not failing because of the dissimilar surfaces.
Few if any professionals use Durock or cement board walls. That’s diy skill trade 🤣. Regardless, how is mud walls or cement board accounting for the Redguard breaking down in under 8 hours of standing water? As Isaac shows, the Redguard is no longer an elastomer membrane when submerged in water for under 8 hours. This is why no professional licensed tile contractor I know uses Redguard.
The scary part is that it’s distributed in big box stores where the least skilled tilers such as diy homeowners and flippers are buying materials. These are the people who’s lack of skill needs the most idiot-proof, fail safe waterproofing. Instead these folks are being sold a product that even with the most diligent workmanship is not waterproof.
Put a piece of Durock on one side of the glass box, and a piece of other cement board material on the opposite side, leaving 2 sides glass. Then you would be able to see if any water is seeping between the Durock/cement board and the base before it meets the glass.
@@MichaelM-to4sg what do professionals use on walls if no durock?
@@Gixxr11 following....
Isaac I've set Tile & Stone here in Las Vegas for 37 years. I've been on massive projects where there is 5,000 to 6000 rooms per building with swimming pools steam rooms Etc. Never once have I ever seen redgard used in any of those applications or on any detail sheets from the architectural or Engineers on these projects. We've always used laticrete 9235 I never see anybody using that stuff anywhere on any residential or commercial jobs in the last 10 years. It's so easy for contractors to show up on a job and roll that red crap all over place, then walk away and then two years down the line they have serious problems. My father always taught me to do everything to the best of your ability and stand behind everything you do. I see that in you and who need to be commended for your efforts to show and teach people. We need more people in the field like you today because there's a massive movement in the other direction and construction nowadays. No one gives a damn anymore get in get it done get your money move on. I think you should be a US senator instead of a tile contractor haha anyways dude Rock on
Perfect- a senator who is honest and responsive. You don't expect that from a shower builder. Good call. 👍
I've watched several of your videos and want to say I appreciate your professionalism and ethics. What you have taught me is as much as I love tile showers, I would never have one installed in my home simply because of the poor quality of "quality" products.
The blisters on the mud are do to moisture still in the mud as I have had that problem before. I've even had issues with hydroban doing the same thing. Realistically it takes at least 3 days for a dry pack to completely dry out enough for a liquid membrane. I don't have time for that personally and I'm sure no other professional tile installers do either so that's why I stick to the sheet membrane and foam boards. Quick one day prep and water test the next morning.
Word
Agreed. The plexi wouldve slowed drying even more.
Should've been in the product instructions....
@@justpassingthrough7989 it is to point as it does say dry substrate but deck mud is difficult to put a specific time on as it is not a modified product and is at the mercy of the temperature and humidity in the air to dry out. I learned the three day rule from my laticrete rep but that was also only for their bag mud that he would say clearly.
Doesn't a real life scenario the moisture would go down through the subfloor not up. To do this test really it should be a wooded box just like a shower stall. Not a plastic box that doesn't let the moisture from the mud to dry.
I just did a test. I applied Mapei's Aqua Defense (from Lowe's) to a new piece of Permabase cement board. I used the new version of Aqua Defense that has the light green color. I used a brush. I did not measure the thickness of the coating. I let it dry in my basement overnight. I have to admit, that my basement is cooler than the rest of the house. I did have a fan blowing on it the whole time to help it dry. The next day, about midday, I took it outside and let it cure some more in the open air. Then I put a little bit of water on it. I removed the water with a paper towel, and the light green color had gotten even lighter, as though the water had gotten into it. I walked away, when I came back, I could not tell where the water had been. The coating had dried out again. I don't know what to make of this, but apparently Red Guard and Aqua Defense have a similar color change when exposed to water and the color change (in the case of Aqua Defense) is reversible. Maybe they both need longer cure times, but who wants to wait forever?
I love your videos. You are honest. If you make a mistake, you don't hide it. We all benefit from your experiences. I will continue to watch and I'm going to subscribe.
I recently did a shower with cement board (I forget the product's name). After I installed that, I used Maepi "AquaDefense" to waterproof it. BUT, i applied a fibrous membrane to stick the fibrous membrane to the cement board. Afterwards, I applied an additional two coats of the waterproofing. The result wasn't the flattest surfaces, especially in the corners and the threshold, but I'm hoping what I did will result in a shower that will last without leaking. Also I used a flexible shower pan instead of just the dry pack and waterproofing.
In my humble opinion, perhaps it has something to do with the
mortar-product connection/reactions.
A good control test would be to paint the boxes with each product without the grout bed. Then move to the the same controls with the mortar bed?
I know have lots of time on your hands to product test everything 😂
First, thanks for all the informative and entertaining videos you produce. Lots of info for pros and DIYers.
This video is a very interesting experiment and a great example of what can go wrong when some of the finer installation details are not adhered to. In the Redgard instructions Section 5, General Surface Prep, it states that porous surfaces must be properly cured and dry according to the manufacturer's instructions and then primed with a 1:4 product dilution. This thin coat will penetrate the pores of the substrate more effectively, thus sealing the surface and ensuring bonding of subsequent coats.
As far as curing time of the dry pack mortar bed, Quikrete instructions for Deck Mud and Sand Topping Mix both state curing time is 5 to 7 days depending on ambient temperature.
For many DIYers the curing time and extra priming step are typically not a big deal, but I imagine that these times and extra steps are not favorable to pros who need to get in and complete the job quickly in order to remain competitive and profitable - seems that this is not a good way to go for pros. As far as liquid waterproof membranes go, more expensive products like Laticrete Hydro Ban are more reliable with less steps and less concern for precise wet and dry film thickness. These more expensive products appear to be targeted to professional installers where products which reduce installation labor time are more favorable than less expensive material which require more effort.
Anyway, thanks again for all the videos and keep them coming!
WOW! Very helpful! I will let mine dry 7 days, and dilute 1:4 for an extra primer step. Thank you for your input!
For the dilution, is that 1 part Redgard to 4 parts water?
@@DavidKlausa Yes, that is correct.
Motor beds require 72hrs of cure time, plus red guard primer. Also if you want to do redguard you need to use a milage Guage. The ideal milage is 15mils per coat and not to exceed 30mils per coat. And requires minimum of 30mils to be water proofed, and 60 mils for a steam shower. Also after your primer coat you need to lightly sand to remove any exposed sand left and wipe down with a damp sponge. And lastly you most use the proper gaging fabric in the corner, not mesh drywall tape.
Thank you for the information, may I ask where you got it? You would think they would put it in their technical data sheet (TDS) or the instructions on the bucket. I watched their video too and it didn’t have the information you provided either. But what you said makes a lot of sense.
@@TileCoach if you contact redguard there is a separate installation instructions that you can get they used to put all that info on the 3.5 gal bucket.
To make redguard primer, you mix 4 parts water to one part redguard, got that from the redguard help line.
@@TileCoach This is from Redgard TDS-104. Prime all surfaces to receive RedGard® with properly applied manufacturer's sealer or with a primer coat of RedGard®, consisting of 1 part RedGard®, diluted with 4 parts clean, cool water. In a clean pail, mix at low speed to obtain a lump-free solution. For substrates exhibiting high absorption rates - apply the diluted mixture of water and RedGard® (4-1) using a clean, fine head broom to scrub in the primer solution. Keep the surface of the substrate wet for at least 15 minutes during application to ensure adequate and even distribution of primer coat. Apply the diluted RedGard® primer coat to the floor at a rate of 300 ft/gallon (7.5 M/L). Allow 1st coat/application time to dry before floor patch or other flooring material applications begin. For tile installations bonding directly to the substrate; strongly recommended to apply at least one full coat of "undiluted" RedGard® to the "dry" primed area and allow to dry completely before tile installation work is to begin.
Bravo sir. Most people don't realize that there's a difference between ounces and fluid ounces. One measures weight and one measures volume
Appears that there was a reaction between the mud and redgard. The covered glass coating seemed intact while the mud surface coating disintegrated. Maybe a bonding sealer over the mud before applying the redgard?
EXCELLENT VIDEO!
Looks like the (underlayment) mortar wasn't fully cured/dried out. (allowing the Redgard not to fully cure either)
*the mortars moisture and air pockets were squeezed out due to the weight of the water on top the redgard.
Best options in this Test. 1st. put your mortar w/ your needed slope, over the raw plywood. allow 24/48hr to cure. Then install your gray liner & test for leaks. then do your 1-1.5" of mortar thickness only. allow to dry 1-2days. use moisture strips/meter before 2 coats of Redgard, allow that to cure 24-48hrs. Then ready to install your Tile.
What great comments on here.. I’m new to the world tile. (3 years) But the 65 year old barnacle down at the our local hardware store has done it his whole life and I pick his brain every chance I get.
He was very adamant that any dry pack shower pan should have 72 hours to off gas after installation.. he said it needs time to dry properly before any waterproofing membrane is applied.
I am using the red guard as a moisture barrier between a new cement leveling slab and slate tile floor. The original cement floor did not have a moisture barrier when the space was built in 1950. Following an architect consultant's advice I will use Redguard as a moisture barrier. His crews use Redgaurd in apartment building renovations and new projects for shower enclosures and bathrooms. Before moving forward with my project, I called Custom Building Products with my cure question. They recommend the cement cures for 28 days. Granted a cement pour is not a mortar bed and I am not dealing with full water immersion situation. The manufacturer suggested that if I wanted to lay tile prior to 28 days, I could use their Redguard Speedcoat product which can be applied over uncured surfaces, and of course is much more toxic! I am almost to the 28th cure day for the less toxic version of their product.
How can test be accurate without fabric in corners? Your redguard bubbled but leaked in the corners. No fabric which is required for substrate changes
Is it possible that the mortar wasn't dry enough to allow the Regard to cure? Is it possible that the glass box, being nonporous, is trapping moisture in the mortar?
For what it's worth I Redgarded a cardboard box and filled it with water. Been holding water for a year.
I've done tested myself and for me it only works when I spread thin layers especially when using a brush cuz redgard does not lay down. I would always use a fiber mesh for corners and use a roller to spread even smooth coats elsewhere. I would like you to do that same test using a roller and making sure it is smooth. Now as far as what the instruction says that amount to me is too much. But I'm sure it will work if spread right. It is hard to achieve a smooth finish with that amount when applying it with a brush, that's why it failed. We are the professionals and at the end of the day we find out what works and how it works. Keep up the good work. I'm starting to record my own videos hopefully I put them out there soon.
Thin layers is exactly what’s needed.
10 yrs and never had issues with red guard! Luv it!
I’d like to see this redone with fiber mesh tape in the seams n use a mil gauge for thickness n get a 6 mil rating n then test im curious tile coach!
Excellent description added to the video. I wish more people would fill in a detailed description like you. I like to do the math as follows: for both coats (2gal / 80sqft) * (128oz / gal) = (2*128/80) (oz/sqft) = 3.2 oz/sqft. This means you need a total of 9.2 oz which is 4.6 oz per coat.
I have been using aqua defense for over 10 years. I noticed those blisters, turns out it was because I did not let the mortar bed cure for three days, Hydro band states you need to cure for three days so all moisture is out. Plus I use fiberglass membrane in the whole base and corners to insure no leaks. Also we pay extra attention to the drain connection.
Mapei rep told me to allow the mortar bed to dry 1 day for every inch thick the mud bed is. I will accelerate that by putting a fan or heater to blow on there. I too use Aqua Defense exclusively, plus like you I lay EIFS fiberglass membrane the following over the whole mud bed and, flash it up the wall and hold in place with thin-set with a combined water & Anti-hydro solution in the thinset for additional waterproof insurance. A lot of installers know nothing of anti-hydro, to me its liquid insurance. The day before I mud, I even flash the mesh up the wall about 4 inches and onto the floor a couple inches as insurance for perimeter crack protection under the pan, and then paint the aqua defense over the detri-mat and up the wall over mesh. Float bed, let cure a bit, add more mesh over whole pan, let it cure out and then aquadefense as needed. Do you do the drain flange assembly correct too with the membrane. Remove mud at an angle, expose flange, remove drain and collar. Paint aqua defense over angled cut away and bond the AD to the lower flange. Let dry, reinstall collar, drain, add pebbles to prevent mud from plugging weep holes, then add more drypack to bring up to correct height. Let it dry but put no aqua defense over this dry pack. It acts as a porous drain area for water to get down and out of the weep holes. A lot of people wont go this far, but I do very high end homes and dont want my reputation sullied over short cuts.
Redgaurd is not a good product to to use for shower pans even when you use reinforcing fabric at the perimeters and the corners, especially when you are installing tile showers above I story high II waterproofed hundreds of showers in a hospital several story's high , was super careful and thorough and pans failed almost half of the time when water tested! The builders insisted on all American Made products to be used, which I get and applaud,bottom line is RedGaurd sucks as waterproofing membrane and many tile installers I know would agree!Thanks for showing your mockup and results.
So, the blisters are from the moisture in mortar bed? Do you ever see the blisters on wall?
@@twinenk15 from water test
You also need to wait 24 plus hours before water test. Blisters are from the red guard not cured, the base was not cured long enough which delayed red guard from curing.
I have never considered using redguard instead of a vinyl liner for a shower pan install. I've used it on a few surrounds now and haven't had any issues but I put a couple thick coats on, and usually let them dry/cure over a weekend. No issues yet.
Yes I'm with you 2 fold. Thin layers, and it's not a pan replacement
Pan liner. Mud bed. Thin coat of thinset on top of mud bed. Then 3 light coats of red guard over entire floor. Same with curb. Haven't had any issues. You still need a pan liner. It would be stupid not to use one.
The chemistry is the reason. Water re emulsified the bonds.
Great Job coach. You took the game to a whole different level with this one bro. Informative, intelligent, and fairly tested on this topics video. You took me to blue collar college. You are staying two steps ahead of the game. As far as the all the corrections and comments, they might be attacks, corrections, or informative, which can make a person feel bad, but hardly anyone out there making videos is doing any testing at all. This video and all the information that was provided just made you and us more informed and knowledgeable. I am expecting bigger and better things from you in the future now you showed what you are capable of doing on this video and I am looking forward to it.
Hi Isaac,
I was first introduced to Redgard (and similar paint on elastomeric products, I'll mention one that I haven't been able to locate in the US by the name of Gripset 51, a popular Aussie/ New Zealand product that has an UV and potable water rating) in New Zealand in about 2006. All waterproof installers in New Zealand must attend and obtain a certificate issued by the product manufacture. I held certificates from 4 different manufactures of these type products. The BIG difference in the installation practices in New Zealand and Australia of these types of products (when applying over a concrete substrate in 2006) was that the concrete must cure for at LEAST 7 days, I let my concrete cure at least 10 days) and that the elastomeric waterproofing products are applied beneath the pre slope. all the joints are either filed with a filled rod, taped or product like Dyna Flex 230 (which I understand these days may no longer be recommended practice with Redgard) allowed to fully cure, (silicone products aren't used as they don't bond with the latex products). Then a light coat (sometimes referred to as a prime coat) applied in all corners and transitions. Allowed to dry at least 24 hours. Then a first coat applied and allowed to dry at least 24 hours, then repeat two more coats allowing the product to dry 24 hours between each application. According to the manufacture instructors, the most common cause for failure or these types of products is 1) too large a gap for the product to bridge, 2) to thick of a coat per application, 3) not allowing the product to thoroughly dry between coats and prior to putting the shower pan on test. The finish coat is recommended by the manufacture to be at least 3 mil thicK (or at least the thickness of a credit card). It seems that many people don't cross their coats of application, or run the product down into the drain. Of course time is money and its a completive situation. Doing it the way I was taught takes time and consequently costs more. There are no short cuts. As a side note, also in New Zealand and Australia the water proofing product is run at least 600 mm past the dam and containment area of the shower. A drain in the floor of all wet areas (laundry room bathrooms with shower or tubs) was also required. Its a really inexpensive method to avert potential hazmat issue with toilet overflows and just a good idea in areas that potential water damage could result in very expensive repairs. I generally tank the entire room as Redgard and similar products will accept latex paint. It takes a little longer and costs a bit more but I have yet to have one fail. Also it should be noted that products like Henry's Tropicol won't bond well with Thinset. I've also had Mapei thin sets fail to bond to Mapei foam board.
Oh I forgot to address the cracks in the corners, when it does that it means you're over applying it, putting more over it makes it worse, it's better to cut out the cracks and reapply in thinner coats. Also redgard is generally applied over cement or backers so applying in on plastic is an issue the underlying moisture gets trapped and never allows it to actually cure.
Agreed plus your are supposed to wait 48 to 72 hours for the morter to cure.
I think he might have dropped the ball on this but I'm sure he will redeem himself
Ahh, that makes sense. I was dumbfounded to figure that RedGuard could be THAT weak ! Been in use a while.
Over applying it on the corners makes it crack?? Can someone confirm this?
@@dieterrosswag933 - yep. Apply with a brush and use mesh cloth/tape at seams, corners and drains.
Build up 6 to 9 light layers on the floor to 20-30 mil thick tapering up the walls so no hard transition from thick to thin and 2 or 3 coats on walls with ample dry time between.
Ive been using a long time and never had a failure.
@@holdernewtshesrearin5471 Thank you. I use tapes between the floor and walls (the joints). It's highly necessary in Germany since the screed is "floating" over a ~5cm foam all over the house, for noise and temperature isolation and also no connected with the wall
Anyway, i didn't know that the "liquid isolation" can break in the corners in short period when there are different thickness in close time application.
Part of the issue is the glass, you’ve got a moisture trap between the 2 waterproof surfaces, there is nowhere for the moisture in the mud to go.
You bet and the difference in curing between two different substrates-plexi/dry pack the bubbles are because of off gassing of dry pack and no where for the gases to go, absalutly need a rubber pan liner for a water proof design!!!
I just took a week to carefully put about 4 healthy layers on my shower.. base.. after flood test yesterday I had the EXACT same problem.. I couldn't find the leak. The wet redgard totally crumbled.
I think 4 is way too much, you shouldn't need that much. The more you put the longer time it will need to cure, not just dry, especially if you're in a conditioned home.
@@Aaron86v do you think if I did 12 hours between coats and let it cure for a few days after my last coat, it would be ready for mortar bed?
@@Aaron86v it's been a bit over a year since I used RG... Not on a pan. I used it (with mesh tape on my seams and corners) to seal a shower wall. To meet the data sheet specs for an ISO water proof rating you end up with 4 coats. It is a horribly slow process, acceptable if you are DIY, but I definitely see why professionals avoid this stuff.
Unfortunately, if someone was JUST looking at the water level during a water test, I think this would have passed. The amount of water loss would have been insignificant over a standard 24-hour test AND you can't see the backside in the real world. For those comments that said you may have applied it too thick in the corners (thus the cracks), you did it so methodically and with an exact measurement for the sq. footage, not one of us would have done better in the field. I do agree with the sentiments about using a product such as FibaFuse (not standard mesh tape - too big of openings on the webs) on the corners but I don't believe that had much, if any, impact on your test. I look at these liquid-applied products as a secondary element over sheet products, mainly because of your videos! Once again, thumbs up for your testing procedures.
I think the tape and thinset would help. Also, the glass box isn't a real world application either. I know its beneficial to see any water seeping through but I think he should atleast put cement board on the sides of the box and give the mortar bed time to cure before applying. All of this could yield a different result. But I'm with you. I only use it over sheet membrane joints/kerdi band areas.
Hubby said it's the smooth surface of the plexiglass and transitioning to morter. Try sanding the surface, or place sheetrock/hardi backer board around the smooth glass area. Then the transition between the two planes of substrates will be similar.
Man Im currently living in an apartment I wouldn't be able to test anything here, I'd love to see you do one on hydroban if possible. Would be nice to see a layout of most commonly used waterproof products. This was a great idea. You know in the forums or groups everyone knows more than the other guy and it never goes anywhere. Thanks again
One tip I have seen that seems useful is on a porous surface especially one not fully cured apply a thin coat of red guard and water mixture as a primer. Red guard like any role on product has to cure, not just dry. ✌🏻🇺🇸
We always use redguard with mapei fiberglass mesh.. use the 6” on all the corners adding corner reinforcement as per guidelines for Laticrete 9235. And use the 35.5” fabric for the mud bed. We apply one coat and let it dry then follow it with another, apply mesh immediately and follow with a coat to saturate mesh. I know it’s not stated in data sheet this way but this way works
We used the mesh for corners too, helps prevent cracking.
Exactly the way our union teaches. Fabric up the walls and on the morter bed.
What I don’t understand is with so many issues with building water proof pans out of various separate components, why aren’t pre-made one piece custom waterproof shower pans, (like offered by KBRS and WEDI), used more?
I would love to see Tile Coach do a side-by-side comparison, in time and material, of a component pan system (like Schulter), and a one piece custom pan (like KBRS).
I love kbrs pan. Been using them for 9 years
Pre-made pans is the best solution. Tiles in any wet environment will always fail sooner or later.
48 to 72 hours for morterbed to cure
I use a 3/4 inch nap roller. A brush for the corners. 2 coats. Havent had a problem in many years. Good info buddy. Thanks for doing these tests for us.
no problems *that you know of*
I like the effort put into making this clip however there might be one slight issue that has been overlooked. I work with acrylic material as we use it to make custom aquariums of different sizes. As you can see the box itself is made up of acrylic material. In order to hold water the acrylic box CANNOT be "glued" together with silicone or DAB bonding agents because these adhesives do not make a proper bond to acrylic. When building aquariums we normally "fuse" the acrylic parts together with a liquid polymer cement that dries instantly upon contact. We use this type of bonding agent so that the acrylic can withstand the pressure of the water column that will go in it. The pan used in the clip is bonded in a similar fashion and holds up great as the box itself does not leak. The mortar however on the inside of the box rides up to an acrylic border. The redgard membrane in this area goes over two types of materials, the acrylic wall and the mortar. The redgard does waterproof the mortar , however, I do not think that redgard makes a strong bond to acrylic and quite frankly not many products will bond to acrylic and will flake away in the short run. Paint will chip away on acrylic very easily after it dries. Redgard does not have the proper bond strength to hold onto acrylic so it will fail in this test. The mortar itself does not bond to the acrylic and if you tip the entire box upside down you will have the same effect as taking sand out of a bucket when making a sand castle. It will all plop right out which means that the Redgard around the entire perimeter of the mortar is very vulnerable and flimsy. I do appreciate the effort put into these clips and I have learned A LOT from watching and subscribing. However in this case a material other than acrylic should be used to conduct the test. In reality we are typically waterproofing wood and cement type materials, not acrylic.
Curious to see how other waterproof agents will work on acrylic.
I don't use it on the shower pan, but I do on the walls and bathroom floors.
I've tested it before on Denshield making a box out of Denshield and then applying it in a thin layer like paint. I let the water sit and came back days later. No leaks. I think it's a good product, but maybe it doesn't work well with a mud job or because the plexi doesn't allow for proper curing.
Great videos. I'm close, up in Southern Oregon. I just watched your mud set video. I learned in So Cal, so I have had the pleasure of setting travertine mud set. Really sad that it's becoming a lost art. I'm teaching my son on a job real soon. Keep up the good work. 👍
I use red gard waterproofing for showers instead using regular liner, but i install membrane in all corners to prevent cracking. also i use it by drain. i also leave hole around drain which i waterproof, and later i fill this gap with extra mortar. This is how its done in Europe. it works good.
Thanks. Your video helped me on an upcoming DIY installation.
I suspect the concrete pad did not fully cure. I’d call the manufacturer to help pin this down even though the instructions do not mention this. I know people that use redgard but I’ve never used it yet. I am so gun shy about doing a customer’s bath because it takes a lot of experience to do it right. I have been installing acrylics for this reason, even though tiling is so much nicer looking and in high demand.
7:52 “8pm this morning”
got a good laugh
yes I agree, The concrete takes much longer than 24hrs to dry, more like 48hrs+ depending on the thickness of the base and tempature of the air.
Also Im thinking several thinner coats are better that 2 heavy wet coats.
heavy coats are going to dry slower and have more tendancy to crack.
Here in Germany i only use PCI Lastogum in combination with their PCI Pecitape. This stuff is insane, works like a charm, doesn`t crack, curing up quite hard (can`t damage it with your trowel) and also the Bands you put in Corners have 2 fleece flanges and a piece of rubber in the middle. The tape is attached directly by the Lastogum membrane. Also they give you pre-fabricated corner pieces and pieces that go around tubes. You can use this stuff over drywall, mortar, basically everything. I once even put it directly on wood and tiled over it for an odd repair job. Holds up now for over 7 Years. Also this stuff is made by a german company, in germany. The company is specialized on mortar, thinsets and all kind of chemicals used in building industry.
looks like the mortar bed needs several days time to dry. the mortar bed is evaporating water right into the Red Guard - which seems to use water as an Earth-friendly solvent...which compounds the problem...causing the blistering, peeling, and flaking...this was a very educational video. better to use some kind of rubberized membrane.
This was a great test! I’ve personally had terrible luck with redguard so you aren’t alone in the struggle to understand people’s allegiance to it. Please do Mapei aqua defense and laticrete hydroban! I’m seeing a lot of comments about your technique which I’ll address in complaint->retort: 1)you applied it too thick -> you followed the manufacturer application to a T. If it was too thick than the literature needs to be rewritten 2) trapped moisture from the mortar couldn’t escape -> all concrete foundations wick moisture, no such thing as a slab that doesn’t. So the only way to isolate your shower for this issue would be to use a pvc liner or sheet membrane which at that point don’t buy the redguard. 3) not long enough dry time between coats-> manufacturer says 1hour… if 5 hours in Nor-Cal isn’t enough that means in Florida you would have to wait a week between coats. And 3 days before water exposure was super generous, for it to blister like that is super damning.
The mortar was still curing - 24 hrs was not enough. Once he put the Red Gard on, the off gases had nowhere to go since RG is also vapor retarder. So it blistered at the weakest points to let the gas out. That’s not an issue in a standard build since the subfloor is rarely vapor proofed prior to the mud bed and Red Gard application. The off gassing would simply escape down through the subfloor.
@@michaeld2613 but any house built after the 80s if built to code has vapor barrier between the concrete and the ground so the moisture would be trapped, and any house built in The south east before the 80s doesn’t have a vapor barrier and sits on wet ground that wicks moisture all year long. A full cure for cement takes a month (sometimes longer depending on application) . And if the manufacturer doesn’t address any of this in their official literature, then they don’t think it’s an issue; any product intended to be used directly against cement in their literature will mention cure times/acceptable moisture levels
Though I am going off the assumption Mike read all the available literature
Isaac, the way I apply redgard may be a bit unconventional and impractical for most professionals trying to knockout a project or job as quickly as possible. I use a roller and apply a very light coat. I do this about a dozen times between flash times. Because of the light coats, the coat dries within an hour. If I have the willpower, I'll knock out three to six coats in a day. Usually this process takes a couple of days. On my last couple of coats i'll apply it a little more liberally. The end result is a pretty solid thick membrane. I've never had an issue with cracking in the seams or corners using this light coat method. I suppose you can say its a quality over quantity approach. I suspect most builder just want to glob the product on the job and knock it out in one or two coats and be done with it to save time, but if you take the time, redgard is a product that works, and works superb.
Talk about wasting time and money...
12 coats of redgard? Give me a schluter kerdi system any day of the week. Jesus, 12 coats...
You saved my project remodel!!! God speed bro
Is a water repellent not a waterproof
Hello anybody has an answer for this...does they Kerdi drain has to be flush to the tray hole edge..I'm dry fitting everything but that abs drains sits a little lower than they tray..is that normal
Such a great learning tool! Better to learn before it is a major issue.
They say that's from putting it too thick and not letting dry fully before next coat
Yup
Did you not watch the video ? He let every coat fully dry.
He put it on way too thick
@@IceCreamJones42069 doesn't matter, if it's too thick it will crack, the drying is what causes the cracking
Older guys I know say coat it real thin, give it a little extra dry time.. Just what I've heard I use hydro ban . and if you do it right no problems....
I used to use reguard. Then I built my own house. I didn't finish the backsplashes in the bathrooms for a while and the splashed water was molding and wrecking the drywall. So I painted a band of redgaurd along the backsplash area according to instructions. Within 6 months it was crazing and then started flaking. I could then take a putty knife and scrape it all off in flakes. It didn't protect the drywall at all except for a couple months.
Red guard for a waterproof seal in the pan? Would never even think to do that. Walls only. Is that product even rated for what you used it for?
I still use rubber tried and true, I would never redguard a pan
Rubber pans for life. People want to waste time doing stuff the "easy" way. Good luck with your leaky shower. If you have problems with the liner pushing your board out cut notches and fill with mortar. Red guard before you do the Mudpan and leave the niche 4 inches up to it of no redguard. Redguard inside the niche. I do this because I've had problems with grout not drying right around the niche but not inside it.
@@kevinclear4007 I honestly don't even think red guard is suggested to be used that way. And anyone who would think that's it a good idea to use it that way should find a new profession.
@@mikecoffman2821 the father/son company I worked for started doing things like that trying to save time towards the end of me working for them. I said you think that's gonna work? Silence. Lol 24 years as a tile setter and I've never had a leak called on me and I've never had to rip out a job. (Besides maybe a miscommunication of using wrong tile on the wrong room or something stupid like that.)
Red guard fails if concrete is not done drying or put on too thick it will bubble every time. I only use red guard for handicap pans, curbs, framed custom sized inset soaps dishes, seams, and over cinder block seats. Any concrete shower pan that extends above the slab gets an Oatley pan liner. Tip for today is use a large concrete stepping stone cut on a 45 for floating corner seat. Double it up wedge it into the tile and versabond it to the concrete board. This saves time and money and takes a sledgehammer to remove it.
I would think if the plexiglass was roughen up a bit and then brushed in a 4-6" mesh band and much thinner coats it would pass the 24hr flood test. Them directions are trash and not saying red guard is the best but I think if a couple extra minor steps were taken it would have positive results. I'm actually a little surprised you had such good results with them smooth boxes. I understand it's nice to see what's happening but with such a smooth surface it's hard to think anything bites so well. The other thing that could possibly be potential problem is the thickness of the plexiglass. Even tho reg guard is supposed to be crack prevention maybe there is some expansion/contraction going on the same time as the red guard is trying to set up and with it being applied so thick the timing is off? Or like some were suggesting it not having any substrate on the wall portion to pull out the moisture. So I would guess the best real world test with still being able to see anything would maybe be using the same box..same drypack and then some strips of drywall or cement board PL 'ed 1/2" above the drypack 2 the walls of the box and then with use of 4-6" mesh band and much thinner coats of red guard. That would definitely remove the possible problems I think that cussed the fail. Plus it's exactly how it would be done in a real shower and would still allow you too see the failure.
Tried the stuff on cementboard in the shower waited 2 weeks before applying made sure seams where all cured. Applied redguard and FOLLOWED the instructions on pail. Waited another 2 weeks before starting tiles. Checked the redguard... peeled off with no effort. No sticky sticky to concrete board. Think I bought a pail that froze and was later thawed out.
I go back to Kerdi
Ask Redgard what their opinion is? The real problem is the plastic pans do not vent. That works just like it would if you used two vapor barriers. You are trapping moisture. Deck mud will not be dry in the time you allowed so now you have trapped moisture between the plastic and the Redgard. As a tile coach you should know this.
HE and you know it, but it's not in the instructions
That brittleness to the membrane is a chemical change to the membrane. The mortar bed cure is a chemical reaction, and by adding the membrane to the mortar before the mortar has cured the two chemical process were allowed to interfere with eachother.
Red guard is an elastomeric product. Any time moisture is present in or below the surface it will create voids in the product(blistering typically). Silicone coating would be better. Silicone is moisture cured where elastomeric is not.. I enjoy your videos! 👍
Yup, soon as i heard people were trusting that stuff verses the old school preslope pan way. I knew we would start seeing alot of problems in showers.
Maybe the solution is to do a thin coat of epoxy over the base of sand mix and then RedGuard. If you think of it, that sand mix base was made with water right? Unless you get it to heated temperature, it will always have some moisture. just my opinion.
Thank you so much for your demonstration. Gives me a lot to think about!!!
This is concerning, especially since I’ve done two showers in my own home with RedGard! But, RedGard is intended for showers where the water doesn’t sit on it for 8 hours. Also, it’s not supposed to be the outer layer; it usually has tile over it, limiting the amount of water that would ever come into contact with it in the first place.
And while RedGard specs apparently don’t specify how long to allow the mud-bed to dry, or how soon to tile over it, I’m guessing most homeowners would allow the mud to dry for several days. And by the time tile is applied, the RedGard has set more than it did in this test.
Just my thoughts!
I use redgard on the walls all the time but have only used it for the shower pan once and it has held up for 6 years - i think :). In the shower pan it will ALWAYS be wet if the shower is used regularly. For a shower pan, I would never do less than three coats and would not try to apply quite as thick as this video due to cracking.
He also didn't install the fiber tape in the corners which are required with ANY waterproofing membrane. I have seen job and completed jobs myself many years ago that are still in perfect condition. No mold, no cracks. I do weekend flood tests, so the water sits for a few days...ZERO failures
Your showers aren't over plexiglass. In the real world the moisture would have dissipated into the subfloor. So the problem here is there was still moisture in the mud, he applied the costs in the corners too thick (this is a problem with the directions) and no mesh. I'm not a huge fan of Redgard but I've done showers with 3 coats where I've left the pan flooded for a week and they were fine. I wouldn't normally do this but the jobsite was completely shut down in the middle of a 24 hour flood test so we couldn't drain until the site reopened.
I have used RedGuard on a few projects without any known problems. I think that if you read the directions a little more thoroughly, you will see that 6" membrane is to be used at intersecting angles. Your leak was in the middle of the sheet????
Redgaurd seems to work best with multiple thin coats if you go heavy or don't allow it to dry between coats you'll get cracking and blistering. I use it on ever job but I don't trust it as a 100 percent waterproof. Also as you stated the color change gets me. So I build a water in water out and then coat it. If redgaurd fails im still good. I also don't agree with a potential mold sandwich. If no air gets in either side of a double vapor barrier it's just water
That is the moisture coming out of the pan material, it needs to cure and dry out before the red guard is applied.
Since the box was non-porous unlike mortar bed, the moisture could only go in one direction- up. But since the uppermost portion of the paint dried first, it trapped all the moisture within the top layer of paint causing bubbles. I’d like to see if the same results occur on a dry mix bed.
Nice test! I always use 1/2 nap roller and you should have the red guard fiber mesh! Holes in the plexi would have helped. I also coat the mortar bed with some thin set!
I love all the testing that you do.
TCNA handbook says 72 hours for dry pack mortar bed to cure before topical waterproofing so you don’t lock in moisture
Might be that it needs more time to dry like 24 hrs per coat other wise it leaves microscopic pores and possible even the cement needs more time to dry for the red guard to work. But this was a great lesson for all of us. I would never use redguard in a shower pan only on vertical surfaces where water cant pool, I much prefer the the laticrete membrane better quality all around and saves time in drying time if it has to be left more to dry.
You're supposed to use reinforcing fabric on all corners are you not?
I am curious to see if the inside corner would crack if you add mesh tape.
I used redgaurd not as the main water barrier but as an extra line of defence. Used schluter Kerdi first then applied 2-3 coats over everything with fabric reinforcement in corners/joints. It’s way over kill I think to do this. When I used red guard, I never got cracking and did a leak test. No leaks (probably because of the schluter too) and yes everything turned pink but there were no bubbles under the membrane.. I think the key is to apply thin coats in the corners where it collects. Funny enough I learned that from you in an older video reacting to another shower guy doing a redgaurd test. So I guess that’s the key.
Lol why even use the edpensive foam system if you dont trust it 😆. If you have to use redgaurd over it
@@hermessanchez7955 I didn't use foam. I used the membrane over a dry pack and because it was my first time installing it. It is not that I didn't trust the system. It is that I didn't trust myself yet. Redgaured really isn't that expensive and very easy to install and I have seen many professionals (including the pro in the video we just watched above) add a paintable rubber membrane over Schluter as an extra insurance. We aren't super heroes and there's no way I am doing the shower twice. It was a no brainer. I would use it over it just in case any time.
That is terrible! So glad I watched this.. was about to do my new install
The way I was taught through the BAC local 3 is using the fabric 3 in up the wall and 3in on floor also fabric on the pan to.
My theory, when the membrane touch mortar it sucked the moisture out of it leaving the micro pores. 2nd coat was like you made 1 pass but also resulted in moisture being sucked through thus drying it out in a way that caused it to be fragile and cracked at the corners away from the non-mortar part, 2nd theory was product was old, and or the product needed to be mixed well.
Have done a flood test with Mapei aqua defense if not would you be willing to give it a try.
Thanks for sharing all your videos with your viewers.
Back in the day..... we would frame the shower pan.... and a company would hot tar.. the shower pan..... I believe in the old school method.
Blisters probably mean user error. Too thick or not dry.
Yeah No.
Keep moving craigslist,beta soy boy.
Have you tried Blue Max? I recently used it to waterproof my basement. It is very flexible and doesn't crack. It's like rubber.
this product is good to use as a moisture barrier on the walls if it is necessary to level the surface of the wall with cement mortar for mosaics, but only for walls
When can you wait 24 hrs first coat, 48hrs second coat, and so on. I wish you had re applied after 4-6 hrs like you said to test it as applied in the field.
Great demonstration…For clarification I am a very basic diyer…anyway could one conclusion be Redgard is a better water proofing product for walls and not so much as for shower pans….or what is a more effective water barrier is a available for walls that you can also tile over…Or are all these products equal and the installer (myself) the week link?
Try priming the bed ,on the waterproofing I use we prime ,and use tape in corners,🇮🇪🇮🇪
Man you got me all worried about the shower I'm building for myself. Don't know if I should tear it up and start over or not.
Right this tileing a shower thing is ucking crazy there is never a strait answer and procedures are like assholes everybody has their own one way and if you don't do it that way it will fail and the worst part about it is I've demoed showers before that were 50 years old and never leaked at all ! they hot mopped tar and 15lb.felt for roofing ,with an old cast iron drain had plaster walls and chicken wire for lath, it had 15 lb felt behind chicken wire to water proof the walls ,
I'm thinking that's probably the best way to do it is just a PVC pan liner and plaster the walls and just red guard the walls down to the floor and if it gets wet out side the shower door seal it so it don't get the curb lumber wet from out side and when it's all said and done do a maintenance every 6 months with a douche down of WD-40 on the grout as long as you like the wet look on your grout joints ! That's what the old timers did ! Back in auut 4! Good luck !
I think the cracking in the corners might have been due to the mortar still contracting as it cures. Outgassing of the uncured base may have created the bubbles
Seems to be more effective when you use xfasten membrane fabric tape for all joints corners and seems like between your glass and mortar overlapping 3 inches onto each. Membrane Fabric comes in 75‘ rolls and is 6“ wide. Usually takes two rolls to do a regular size shower also you put a piece over all your screw holes on your dura roc. And I believe the bubbles are from the suction try pouring one out and see I may be wrong. Thanks for your videos 🙏
wth do you need 150 feet of fabric for?? thats a grip
🤙💯 btw the mud cure time specs before setting materials you can find it on the mud specs.. good video tho
Sure would be great to see a side-by-side comparison with some of the other products.
Not saying it will, but redgard does say to you fiberglass tape on joints and corners. You think that would of helped on the corner ?
If the water could somehow permeate the membrane I would presume it would be due to the weight of the standing water, which is not a real world scenario. Tile a applied directly to the membrane would only expose the membrane to the small amount water absorbed by the grout and thin-set.
This can happen with any liquid applied. Either it was applied too thick or not enough dry time between coats. In this case likely not enough time between coats over the bulk of the surface. The corner cracking is because it was applied too thick in the corners. That's the problem with liquid applied, too much opportunity for user error. Sheet membranes are a safer bet.