Mike Siemsen, Workholding on Viseless Bench

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  • Опубликовано: 2 дек 2014
  • Mike Siemsen demonstrates workholding methods for a viseless workbench like he made in the Lost Art Press video "The Naked Woodworker" lostartpress.com/collections/d... He has another video on making benches and boxes at Craftsy www.craftsy.com/ext/MikeSiemsen_4879_H This is the $25 off promotional price. Enjoy! I list classes I teach at www.schoolofwood.com

Комментарии • 515

  • @mikesiemsen7125
    @mikesiemsen7125  9 лет назад +166

    I am glad you all have enjoyed the video.

    • @Roganberg
      @Roganberg 8 лет назад +1

      +Mike Siemsen Just found this today. Great video! I'm going to implement some of these methods on my bench. Please upload some more, Mike! :-)

    • @lebensschueler
      @lebensschueler 4 года назад

      Thank you a lot!!

    • @redwolf7929
      @redwolf7929 4 года назад

      Hi was that first holdfast wooden? Was the joint the only metal part?

    • @mikesiemsen7125
      @mikesiemsen7125  4 года назад +6

      @@redwolf7929 The first holdfast is all wood just a tree branch where it leaves the trunk.

    • @robbiekavanagh2802
      @robbiekavanagh2802 3 года назад

      Ye

  • @MartinMMeiss-mj6li
    @MartinMMeiss-mj6li 4 месяца назад +7

    This is one of the best, if not the best, video on traditional hand-tool woodworking I have ever seen.

  • @whyohwhy357
    @whyohwhy357 3 года назад +16

    The "whistle" of a sharp plane 😍. How can anyone downvote a man humbly sharing his knowledge?

    • @lbeau061
      @lbeau061 3 года назад +1

      Good question!

    • @polbecca
      @polbecca 8 месяцев назад +1

      Watching the ease at 10:10 for flattening the board makes me realise my big old wooden plane really needs a bit of sharpening.

  • @jwswt
    @jwswt 7 лет назад +205

    He just ripped a quarter inch 5 foot long strip without a guideline using only a handsaw and some pegs. That might be the most impressive thing I have ever seen.

    • @bobhudson3286
      @bobhudson3286 6 лет назад +4

      You said it.

    • @mikejustice1196
      @mikejustice1196 4 года назад +1

      James Sweterlitsch
      You meant 3’?

    • @svendmusic
      @svendmusic 4 года назад +11

      I thought the same thing. And he was so casual about it, too... a subtle flex, but an effective one. Respect.

    • @jevincox166
      @jevincox166 4 года назад +10

      James Sweterlitsch rumor has it he was asleep when he planed

    • @rorylobban4789
      @rorylobban4789 4 года назад +1

      You don't get out much huh?

  • @daveclarke175
    @daveclarke175 5 лет назад +31

    This guy just blew my mind. I have been watching lots of videos on using a work bench. Always involved a lot of very expensive clamps etc. Mike just showed me more with a board with a notch in it. I'm going to have a drink and contemplate life.

    • @stauffap
      @stauffap 5 лет назад +3

      Then you might like Roy Underhills content as well. He also talks about such stuff.

    • @drumboarder1
      @drumboarder1 4 года назад +1

      I'm certainly interested in this myself but I will point out that you can make rather cheap and effective vises yourself

  • @jamescooley7849
    @jamescooley7849 2 года назад +16

    You carry on a timeless art my friend. My grandfather taught me woodworking with hand tools almost 50 years ago. I just finished a new workbench in my garage and the first project is going to be a birdhouse as I teach my grandson. Thats 4 generations of sawdust!

    • @johnzx14rk94
      @johnzx14rk94 Год назад

      How is your new bench working out for you? I am building my first wood working bench.

    • @jamescooley7849
      @jamescooley7849 Год назад

      @@johnzx14rk94 just fine, I had trouble with cast holdfast failures but after I ordered some forged ones from Blackbear not a problem since. Already put on a cabinet makers vise. Plan to add a tail vise this year.

  • @thesawdustmaker.david.1182
    @thesawdustmaker.david.1182 8 лет назад +178

    How refreshing to see another woodworker in the mould of Paul Sellers making excellent videos rather than the endless supply of videos featuring all the latest electrical gadgets.A video showing what is possible with the minimum of hand tools, old school style.Although I watch most of the current crop of videos I get the view that most are very skilled and talented machinists rather than dyed in the wool carpenters.Many thanks for an excellent tutorial Mike.

    • @jubilantyogurt
      @jubilantyogurt 4 года назад +6

      "the mould of Paul Sellers" - that would be, elite woodworker. Top 1%

    • @Giganfan2k1
      @Giganfan2k1 4 года назад +14

      I have Rex's Woodworking for humans series might be a thing you would really like.

    • @jubilantyogurt
      @jubilantyogurt 4 года назад +7

      Sum Arbor already subscribed, love his videos

    • @Giganfan2k1
      @Giganfan2k1 4 года назад +5

      @@jubilantyogurt we are getting spoiled. :)

    • @jubilantyogurt
      @jubilantyogurt 4 года назад +5

      @@Giganfan2k1 Indeed

  • @VincentSmith1776
    @VincentSmith1776 4 года назад +6

    My opinion, one of the top 5 best woodworking videos on RUclips. Thank you sir.

  • @koboskolors
    @koboskolors 8 лет назад +9

    Mr. Siemsen, this videos was absolutely riveting. In todays woodworking world, everyone is led to believe that a beautifully crafed and stupidly expensive bench is a must have. I think it's horseshit. It would be impossible for me to express how important the content and absolute knowledge this video contains. I salute you sir.

  • @hassleoffa
    @hassleoffa 8 лет назад +67

    That was one of the best wood working videos I've ever seen. I was about to build a bench ... and I'm really tempted to go with a viseless bench. Thanks for your time and experience.

  • @jimherchak7505
    @jimherchak7505 Год назад +2

    Great video! There are countess others on BUILDING a workbench, but this is the best one I've found on how to USE one.

  • @davidrobinson7112
    @davidrobinson7112 4 года назад +1

    The shrewd and technical aspects of woodworking seem to be unending. The more I studly it becomes more and more obvious that what I have used is a really small sampling of this woodworking world. I have found an all new hobby. I don't think I will run out of new skills to learn and develop. I thank all the presenters for the treasures you have offered.

  • @mikesiemsen7125
    @mikesiemsen7125  9 лет назад +14

    The sides or aprons are 1 1/2 inches with a 3/4 inch build up to give you 2 1/4 inches or 57 mm. The tops are 1 1/2 inch with a build up of 1 1/2 inch for a total of 3 inches or 76 mm.

  • @thisandthat176
    @thisandthat176 3 года назад +6

    I can only say THANK YOU so much for sharing your knowledge! I often come back to this video as a reference. It's like an old book. Everytime fascinating!

  • @Dunc2222
    @Dunc2222 2 года назад +2

    The depth of sophisticated knowledge and creativity here is remarkable. I never could have imagined that a holdfast would hold so effectively, or could be put to so many uses. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and inspiration, Mr. Siemsen.

  • @MrAdnauseam
    @MrAdnauseam 7 лет назад +6

    This is the best thing I've seen on the internet in ages. Love how informative, and peppered with dusty dry humor, this video is. I'm in the process of building a bench and will no longer be considering expensive vises. Thanks!

  • @kmherethere
    @kmherethere 5 лет назад +10

    Mike - just completed my viseless bench and I'm really happy with it! Thanks so much for the enthusiasm for this style of bench. I'm sure it will give years of service.

  • @HWoodCreations
    @HWoodCreations 5 лет назад +17

    Geez!! That old wood plane is a beast!

  • @embwee
    @embwee 8 лет назад +18

    "a few dollars left to buy your favorite malt beverage"! thanks for sharing your expertise.

  • @karlgibson7654
    @karlgibson7654 9 лет назад +3

    42 years I've been working with wood & never seen so much that I never new in such a short vidio. Thank you now it's time to put all your add-VICE, on my new work bench. Chears from THE COFFIN MAKER.

  • @Caleb-vr1mi
    @Caleb-vr1mi 5 месяцев назад +6

    I got more information out of this video than I have ever watching any other RUclipsr. This is quite refreshing and actually inspires you to become a better woodworker. Great information!

  • @donalfredisaac
    @donalfredisaac 8 лет назад +2

    I watch lots of woodworking videos, and this is the first time I see how easily and securely a hold fast works and since I have no vise, that is what I´ll do. I know I´ll never cut as straight as you or Paul Sellers, but I´ll give it a try. Thanks Mike.

  • @phooesnax
    @phooesnax 8 лет назад +8

    May be the most well done and interesting woodworking video I have ever watched. WOW......10 stars

  • @odrade1
    @odrade1 8 лет назад

    Thank you for making this video, and for sharing it on RUclips. I have worked on a vise-less bench before; however, I still learned some new things from your video.

  • @johnraffensperger
    @johnraffensperger 4 года назад +1

    I’ve been looking at different bench designs for a long time, this is it. Many thanks for the excellent tutorial.

  • @indigogolf3051
    @indigogolf3051 6 лет назад +1

    Wonderful. Interesting, inspiring and educational. I have watched this several times now and still love it. Thanks.

  • @TheHeraldOfChange
    @TheHeraldOfChange 8 лет назад +2

    Thanks for this. I found it very interesting and there are several ideas here that I will integrate into the making of my own work bench. I find vices to be tricky to make and expensive to buy, so this video has shown me a whole new way of looking at the situation and achieving a very respectable workaround. Brilliant! Thanks.

  • @61mab
    @61mab 3 года назад +1

    Really a great reward for time spent watching this extremely condensed informational vid! I've am sans bench with little room to have one, so I can see myself working in that direction. Went out and looked in my rollaway, found two very very old rusty tenon saws that might have been from my grandfather and I'm 74' so, old .. now I guess I'll be looking up 'how to sharpen a tenon saw' (rebuilding a rusty old drill press and an equally rusty circular saw so here's another project!)
    Thanks for the lesson! Now I know more than what direction to saw.

  • @CMP-tr2ws
    @CMP-tr2ws 4 года назад

    Great video. And one of the most efficient workbenches I've ever seen.

  • @a.v.2242
    @a.v.2242 6 лет назад

    Many thanks for the excellent woodworking and carpentry lesson! Hats off to you, sir.

  • @Studiofilos
    @Studiofilos 7 лет назад +1

    The best video i've ever seen about wood work

  • @beauxtx1959
    @beauxtx1959 8 лет назад

    A MOST excellent bench video and that has to be the sharpest scrub plane that I've ever seen anyone use. WOW!

  • @TheCompleteGuitarist
    @TheCompleteGuitarist 5 лет назад +1

    One of the best woodworking videos on youtube and believe me there are some awesome videos out there.

  • @thebeav79
    @thebeav79 7 лет назад

    Great video, Mike. Thanks a lot. I've gotta tell you that watching you cut wood so easily makes me really want to sharpen my tools. It looks like a lot more fun that way.

  • @tummy_fritters
    @tummy_fritters 8 лет назад +5

    great video. I would have never known about the versatility of holdfasts and such. And seeing as I've just started getting into woodworking, it's nice to know I can save a bit of money

  • @thomasabraham8988
    @thomasabraham8988 3 месяца назад

    Simply fabulous 👍👍👍..as a beginner I cannot tell you how helpful this video has been..thanks plenty..😊👍..

  • @avg2212
    @avg2212 6 лет назад

    A minimalistic workbench, beautiful!
    Thanks for sharing the simple way.

  • @DaveBardin
    @DaveBardin 8 лет назад +1

    A wonderful demonstration and good start to finish. Thank you sir for your time and effort.

  • @leandersmith6184
    @leandersmith6184 4 года назад +3

    Great to see a guy actually working with his hands love the details of laying down the plane on the bench after finishing, love the finger guiding the handsaw but I have to find out where he bought that saw it cuts great thank you for sharing

  • @markwilkinson2250
    @markwilkinson2250 4 года назад

    Thanks so much for the new perspective. I have been redesigning a shop wall to add bench space, within limits, and your video helped influence my design decisions. I can add hold fast and dog holes without concern for adding a vice for nearly all of my working needs. Great video.

  • @kishorekrishnan9085
    @kishorekrishnan9085 8 лет назад

    I really think that this was the finest exposition of working on a classical workbench. Thank you

  • @grendel4711
    @grendel4711 9 лет назад

    What a brilliant video! I am currently collecting ideas for my first "real" workbench, and this gave me a lot to think about. Thank you very much for this great lesson!

  • @waylonwillie111
    @waylonwillie111 8 лет назад

    Thanks for posting! The recessed stick running up the center of the bench is brilliant.

  • @Huntfitter
    @Huntfitter 8 лет назад

    I ended up here because this was the next video after the one I actually selected. What a great video. So glad I found it...Like the others said, please do more videos...Really enjoyed it and definitely learned from it.

  • @akbychoice
    @akbychoice 5 лет назад +1

    Wealth of information and endless possibilities, thank you.

  • @paramedialab
    @paramedialab 6 лет назад

    I should spend many days watching hundreds of videos to get this knowledge. Thanks for saving my time. Great video.

  • @kennyharbison4568
    @kennyharbison4568 5 лет назад

    I love this bench. I see what my next project is going to be. I love the versatility and simplicity of it.

  • @liudas5377
    @liudas5377 7 лет назад +4

    That was the coolest!!! Thanks so much for posting....

  • @maineiachomestead7550
    @maineiachomestead7550 5 лет назад +2

    Mike, thanks so much for your videos, I really wish you would make some more for us. Your laid back style makes it easy to follow you.
    I recently bought your NWW video set (downloadable) and have enjoyed it immensely, especially the tool hunting. Its well worth the $27 just to catch your jokes.
    Pretty sure this will be my first bench and I can easily see myself not installing a vise.

  • @Rideeon
    @Rideeon 6 лет назад +1

    Truly amazing i'm just making a bench and was annoyed about having to have a vice etc and thinking of a few work around's, and suddenly this pops up. I know it's a few years late but this is exactly the way I was thinking of doing things myself. You've just proved my theory's. Awesome that new minds and old tested techniques still come together in a few places.

  • @jimcsnr
    @jimcsnr 3 года назад +1

    Pure genius! very informative and entertaining, it's giving me lots of ideas. Cheers mate!

  • @stefanopassiglia
    @stefanopassiglia 6 лет назад

    Superb video. Thank you so much. It deserves millions of views.

  • @orbodman
    @orbodman 5 лет назад +1

    I keep coming back to this. I have a bench under construction as I write and now I must change the design so that I can accommodate hold-fasts on the front and rear aprons which I didn't have before in the plan. Love the no-frills approach

    • @orbodman
      @orbodman 4 года назад

      I think I'll even reply to myself. You see I do keep coming back to this.

  • @Rocketninja200
    @Rocketninja200 3 года назад +2

    I thought I might not able to afford a good bench. This video has changed my entire way of thinking.

    • @thethirdman225
      @thethirdman225 3 года назад

      With everyone building elaborate Roubo benches with expensive vices, you kind of get forced into that way of thinking until you see something like this.

  • @joejamesmonroe1854
    @joejamesmonroe1854 9 лет назад

    Now this is what Im talking about when I speak of how things were done BACK IN THE DAY!!!
    Thank You so much Mike for giving me a view into what it was like to work back when hand work was THE ONLY WORK!

  • @TaoDeInsane
    @TaoDeInsane 8 лет назад

    wow... for what I'm wanting to do in woodworking, this is a perfect style of bench. I was about to start building a proper woodworking bench, rather than a garage table with clamped vises, and now I know exactly what I'm going to build. Thanks a ton for this video, probably one of the more educational for overall woodworking that I've seen.

  • @738polarbear
    @738polarbear 7 лет назад

    I have come back to this as I am VERY impressed with it.That cloche hook is great.Understated man who really knows what he is talking about . You can just tell.

  • @shamu7014
    @shamu7014 2 года назад

    Thank you for sharing your superb knowledge. I built a very solid MFT to use with my tracksaw and then became increasingly interested in hand tool woodworking. I had started to think the MFT was a mistake, as I was struggling to see how I could fit a traditional vice, but I think almost all of your methods can be made to work on it. This is a brilliant resource! Thank you!

  • @Heseblesens
    @Heseblesens 4 года назад

    Just came by this video today. Have to agree with all the other comments on here - great tutorial in the "old school stuff", the kind that never get old or out of date.
    I am to make me a workbench and there was a lot of good pointers and food for thoughts in Your video. Thank You for sharing with us!

  • @TitusLivy777
    @TitusLivy777 9 лет назад

    An almost uncountably large number of ingenious ways to hold work without a vise! Thank you!

  • @1HeartwoodSurgeon
    @1HeartwoodSurgeon 8 лет назад

    Mike knows his stuff. Thanks so much for sharing and teaching. My bench made it back to South Dakota just fine and is ready for work.

    • @mikesiemsen7125
      @mikesiemsen7125  8 лет назад

      +1HeartwoodSurgeon Glad you made it home ok. Great group of guys!
      Mike

  • @leroybullied7705
    @leroybullied7705 8 лет назад +22

    Watching these working with hand tools videos I've noticed that the air isn't full of dust.

  • @ippolitofred
    @ippolitofred 9 лет назад

    Mike, awesome tutorial. Love the Nicholson bench. Thanks.

  • @wigennazarov6009
    @wigennazarov6009 3 года назад +1

    Wonderful video, that's how it was done before the invention of vices. I didnt realise there is so much you could do without a vice. Thank you for this very informative video.

  • @fisharmor
    @fisharmor 6 лет назад

    I incorporated a lot of the ideas on this bench into mine. In particular the plane stop in the middle. This video is easily in the top-5 must-watch videos for anyone looking to get into hand tool woodworking.

  • @MrMarkpeggy
    @MrMarkpeggy 6 лет назад

    Thank you for sharing your expertise with us. This is an excellent video.

  • @stefanhansen5882
    @stefanhansen5882 5 лет назад

    Thanks a lot for this, Mike! I am currently doing research for building my first - and hopefully last - bench. This gave me a lot of ideas and things to think about. :)

  • @richwallace4632
    @richwallace4632 4 года назад

    I’m tickled to watch an instructional video that doesn’t insult me, or bore me with 20 minutes of talk before touching a piece of wood. I thoroughly enjoyed watching and learning old school traditional wood working. Can’t wait to see more. Thank you.

  • @buzzmooney2801
    @buzzmooney2801 Год назад +1

    A terrific and EXTREMELY educational video! Also, if you ever do a video on sharpening tools, I want to see it. That's an art I've neglected for too long!

  • @cyohara4961
    @cyohara4961 7 лет назад

    This was a revelation to me. Many thanks for showing this skill

  • @mark2designs607
    @mark2designs607 3 года назад

    Excellent video! Watching a true craftsman at work.

  • @jeffnovak2565
    @jeffnovak2565 9 лет назад

    I love, love this video. Once again, it proves the folks in antiquity knew EXACTLY what they were doing and the work they did is still unequaled today. Thanks for an extremely informative video that makes me WANT this style of bench to compliment my hand approach better than what I'm currently using.

  • @hutts57
    @hutts57 7 лет назад

    Great information. I fell in love with the idea of hold fasts when I first saw them. Your video and bench probes out a thought I jade that a pair of hold fasts could be much more flexible than a face and tail vise. Will check out your video as I plan on constructing a bench soon.

  • @ajcccjohnson
    @ajcccjohnson 6 лет назад

    Great video! Loved the way you set up for dovetailing.

  • @zekearchuleta6061
    @zekearchuleta6061 8 лет назад +1

    Mike, I'm currently making a bench similar to yours, Excellent ideas, Couldn't figure out what Novisatol was, Then realized as I was going to Web MD when it hit me, DAH !
    Great Video thanks for sharing your knowledge, Blessings from Apple Valley, Ca.

  • @jordanrenaud-pq7rx
    @jordanrenaud-pq7rx 7 лет назад +6

    In just 30 min. you have taught us more than most others. I think I prefer your teaching because it's so dead simple and so immediately obvious to the mind. BTW have you ever had a doe's foot split while using it?

  • @bunnylovenuts8680
    @bunnylovenuts8680 2 года назад

    A friend sent me the link to this and - wow - I'm sure glad that he did. Even if someone has little to no interest in hand tool woodworking, it is so fascinating. Easy and interesting to watch, good pace .. just great and informative viewing. Thanks for posting!

  • @danielayalachristovao4797
    @danielayalachristovao4797 5 лет назад

    The best video about workholding!

  • @harrymason1053
    @harrymason1053 7 месяцев назад

    This is just about the best video, on this topic, on the internet. Good job Mike Siemsen. Others pay careful attention.

  • @linzierogers6227
    @linzierogers6227 4 года назад

    Several years ago i was in Ghana and observed a woodworker there. He used a similar type of workbench. The sides were different and used an adjustable board. This is a very informative video.

  • @MRrwmac
    @MRrwmac 6 лет назад

    Very interesting and I learned a lot.
    I’m ordering two bottles of the “Noviceatal” tomorrow! Thanks for the video!

  • @gijoe1682
    @gijoe1682 4 года назад

    Absolutely marvelous bench and design.

  • @bluekingfisher1416
    @bluekingfisher1416 2 года назад

    I've watched this video before and came across it again today What a great bench, a practical workhorse, which looks simple and inexpensive to build. I am sure it would last a life time but if parts wear out or break it wouldn't be the end of the world to replace them I'm sure.
    Many of the benches show cased in RUclips land look like decorative furniture pieces with timber, hardware and vices in need of a small mortgage to finance the build, each to their own I guess but that bench is built for using. Really enjoyed the video and the methodology of work. Well done.

  • @hippychippie1
    @hippychippie1 8 лет назад

    Knowledgeable, information packed half hours first class instruction Head and shoulders above most. Thankyou

  • @Ezpeazie
    @Ezpeazie 4 года назад +3

    "It lays there and behaves itself..." best line in any woodworking video ever.

  • @truebluekit
    @truebluekit 9 лет назад +1

    Thank you sir. This has been an education.

  • @TheWrena440
    @TheWrena440 7 месяцев назад

    I swear these are the sharpest hand saws on the internet! Good job.

  • @chipcipolla5351
    @chipcipolla5351 4 года назад

    I truly enjoyed this video. This bench is interesting and I will look forward to building one.

  • @lestercantem7740
    @lestercantem7740 3 года назад

    Thanks Mike for an excellent and well explained demonstration on a Viceless Bench. Kind Regards, Lester

  • @gregzoller9003
    @gregzoller9003 2 месяца назад

    Great video, thank you! I’ve accepted the “truth” that you need a leg vice and tail vice, at least, in order to perform necessary operations. You’ve relieved me of those misconceptions. Thoughtful use of some sticks, stops, and holdfasts will do the trick at a fraction of the cost vs fancy vices.

  • @billholt8746
    @billholt8746 8 лет назад

    Excellent video. Clear, concise and useful. Thanks.

  • @th34lch3m1st
    @th34lch3m1st 6 лет назад

    A lot of great ideas for my workbench under costruction. Thanks for sharing.

  • @houstonsam6163
    @houstonsam6163 11 месяцев назад

    This is an amazing demonstration. For the first time this Reb wishes he lived up north so he could learn from Mike in person. Anyone building a workbench (as I am right now) must consider this mandatory viewing.

  • @pela2601
    @pela2601 2 года назад

    Mr Siemsen, This video is really useful, I'm glad I found it. At the naked eye, I can see you have many years of experience. Just watching you cut wood is very rewarding, and it seems easy, but it's not! Thanks a lot! Diego

  • @mikesiemsen7125
    @mikesiemsen7125  8 лет назад +2

    1978ajax, I used my smaller portable bench for the video as it fits in the shot better. You can see a longer heavier bench behind me. Pieces of shelf liner or the stuff that keeps rugs from slipping around are a good fix.

  • @rowlandchapman9981
    @rowlandchapman9981 4 года назад

    I love your tools and skilled work methods

  • @bigwaywardbill
    @bigwaywardbill 8 лет назад

    I was reading , the Lost Art Press Blog and found you from that, I don,t know how I missed you before. I have been puttering about a few years now , not very well lol. Any way I never understood the Nicholson benches , until now. I see its a very effective bench without a Vise wow. I shall indeed take some of my saving for a favorite malt beverage . Good Job Look forward to more.

  • @bluesideup007
    @bluesideup007 8 лет назад

    Excellent demo! Thanks Mike.

  • @pauldixon6654
    @pauldixon6654 8 лет назад

    Sir i am at present finishing my first ever bench and have been following Paul Sellers. The problem i have is a vice to finish my project off with. That before i saw your video that is. What a splended video well thought out well made. well done sir. Iwill be keeping an i on your future videos. THUMBS UP. Many thanks for shareing and will be byeing your video.

  • @mtlvlgmnfishing
    @mtlvlgmnfishing 4 года назад

    Very awesome. I been building my work bench and been dreading buying a good vise because of limited funds but now no need to worry I will be useing this method instead for now anyway. Thank you