The 4.0 GPA in His Premed Postbac Wasn't Enough | Application Renovation (S1 E6)
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Today we're going through another student's full application to medical school to see if we can figure out why he wasn't accepted, even with a 3.87 cumulative GPA and a 509 MCAT score.
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Our student-we'll call him John-applied to med school last year and didn't get any interviews. He thought maybe his lack of research hurt him, but I doubt that was a significant factor. He also worried that his MCAT score might have been too low. He applied early, so that wasn't the problem.
John was a music major in undergrad, did a master's program, and then did a premed postbac a few years later. He got a 4.0 GPA in his postbac, bringing his cumulative undergraduate GPA to 3.87. His first MCAT score was a 500, but he took it again and he got a 509.
So John had a great GPA at 3.87 and a pretty good MCAT score at 509… Why didn't he get accepted to any medical schools?
As we explore in the episode, the biggest answer comes down to a relative lack of clinical experience and, as a side effect of that, a weak personal statement. His clinical experiences seem to just be crammed into the last few months before the application. He also listed some things as clinical experience which included cleaning hospital rooms and other non-clinical work.
For John's Most Meaningful Experiences in his Work & Activities section, he listed an activity that he'd only done for 3 months before the application, which is a little suspicious because how much impact can there be in 3 months? He also listed shadowing as a Most Meaningful Experience, which usually looks suspicious to me.
Shadowing is usually kind of boring for students, so the fact that you're putting 28 hours of shadowing as your Most Meaningful Experience usually means you're trying to fluff up your extracurriculars and/or really emphasize that you want to be a doctor when you don't actually have significant, impactful experiences to list there.
John also included some school stuff in his extracurriculars, too. So overall, it comes across a bit like he was trying to pad his extracurriculars.
After reviewing his Work & Activities section, I feel comfortable saying the number one reason he didn't get an interview is likely that he didn't get enough clinical experience to prove to the reader that he actually wants to be a physician.
But we also cover his personal statement. We discuss how to write the medical school personal statement as a career changer: Don't just focus on why you're NOT pursuing your old career anymore. You need to focus on why you're being pulled toward medicine.
John's personal statement is also focused too much on why he thinks he would be a good doctor. Instead, he needs to focus on WHY he WANTS to be a doctor. Overall, his personal statement really suffered because he didn't have many clinical experiences to draw from. He wasn't able to write honestly and emotionally about why he wanted to be a doctor while citing specific patient experiences.
So John has shown the aptitude to be a doctor with his postbac and MCAT score, but he hasn't proven that he really wants this enough to go through all the training and not give up.
John's school list also isn't helping him because he applied to a lot of public schools as an out-of-state applicant. In regard to his school list, we also talked a little about MD vs DO schools and why nontraditional students sometimes have had better luck at DO schools, but why he should apply to both.
Hopefully, this was a helpful med school application deep dive for you. Again, applying to medical school is not just about stats. You need clinical experience. You need to be able to tell the story of why you want to be a doctor. Medical schools don't want to take a chance on someone who hasn't had enough experiences to really prove to themselves that this is what they want.
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It really bothers me that this guy wasn't accepted. If he didn't want to be a doctor he wouldn't have got a 4.0 gpa and taken the MCAT twice. He tried so hard, yet this is his award. Keep grinding.
But it’s not about gpa and it shouldn’t be. His writing is awkward and frankly kind of strange. He writes about “accruing hours” as a volunteer. He has other statements that are just poorly structured sentences. Also, his most meaningful experiences are not meaningful. This is actually an example that med schools DO read the applications and don’t just choose the guy with a 4.0 and 520 MCAT
Not to mention that 75% of his personal statement is dedicated to music and why he loves it, only to then abruptly transition to “well I loved chemistry so I’ll be a doctor... so then I did all the things to be a doctor”. It takes way too long to get to the doctor part, and then once you’re finally there, it’s completely void of any reason as to why he wants to be a doctor. He simply talks about signing up for courses and studying for the MCAT... yes we all did that! Don’t need to mention that you enrolled in pre meds ...
What? His rejection was the most predictable thing ever. He literally stated, in no uncertain terms, that he failed out of being a musician and just kinda decided to be a doctor as an alternative I guess. This dude could've gotten a 528 and I still would've predicted zero interviews. Like, even if that is your mindset about why you want to be a doctor, who in their right mind would ever say that on their application??
Dr. Gray keeps telling us over and over that it’s not all about stats and y’all just don’t get it though your head
Sorry, that sounded harsh and I didn’t mean for it to 🫶🏽
he seemed so hurt on the inside i could practically feel it. i hope he ends up finding a profession that makes him happy the most, be it doctor, or musician, or room cleaner, or whatever
Room cleaner..
@@sohyangworld1544 A man can take pride in anything.
@@thevisitor1012 nah
He would be more hurt if he spends years studying to become a doctor just to find out that he should have been a trumpet player or something.
His personal statement strikes me as a fantastic college application essay. It would wow any undergrad admissions personnel. But it's just not what med schools are looking for....
yeah.. his personal statement was a little bit... ugh... don't know how to put it into words..
I totally agree
2 years ago I did fortunately get an acceptance into medical school where I currently attend now. However, my application was just as flat as this guy's was. I feel fortunate to have gotten in but I cringe at the thought of my application two years ago. This is really helpful for me to figure out how to sell myself to future residencies beyond.
This guy would have been a strong applicant if he had more clinical patient contact hours.
From seeing this application, I just wish more than anything that he finds his passion for music and pursues that instead... he is definitely strong academically, but his passion for music shines through more than his passion for medicine. I have never seen anyone so passionate about something and yet so oblivious to his passion...
Try making a living in music though.
can you sense my passion. would love to ask u questions. seriously
You nailed all the important key points Dr. Gray. This guy is all set to apply again
I never watched any of these videos that you post because I always thought they were too long and assumed it wouldn’t help me... I couldn’t have been more wrong. This was so helpful to me as I enter this application cycle
Don’t feel bad man. I didn’t get any til September and now I have 5! Never give up some people don’t hear back til December!
Did u get an A?
The language in the application has too many references to music, its obvious he would rather be in an orchestra, and why is it so difficult to get into med school anyway, its not that difficult in the UK. The US system is extremely probing and downright nosy, people opening their hearts on huge application forms. What a cheek they have got!!
@Alfa Adamo If I am not mistaken, the larger issue at hand is the number of residency spots. The number of medical schools increase, but not the residencies (formed by the government). Consequently, med schools must reject applicants who very well may be great physicians.
@penguins inadiorama I'm not quite following you. What European ethnicities are you referring to in particular? The majority of matriculants have European background. Unless you were referring to European foreign applicants, which would contradict your first point.
@penguins inadiorama Perhaps you don't understand the social construct underlying the term, "white". Levantine and North Africans may have lower matriculation rates, but, as you know, all races have individual ethnic groups that are behind the curve. If you have applied to medical school before, you would understand that there is an option of "other race". Many individuals from disadvantaged ethnic groups (but over-represented racial groups) have utilized this option.
As for your other arguments, no, neither IMGs or foreign-born physicians make up near to 40%. The real number is roughly 25%. 2nd, white people consistently remain low in health disparities in comparison. 3rd, white people remain to have the highest acceptance rate and matriculation rate. This becomes an issue of, "why are white people not applying to medical school?".
I highly suggest reflecting on the sociocultural context of "minorities", as well as your motive for such arguments.
Lol "what a cheek they have got" thats sucu a cute expression
The fact of the matter is that there just is not enough medical resources, staff, and patients to accommodate 500+ students in each medical school class. I know everyone wants to get accepted with a 3.5 gpa and a 510+ MCAT score, but that’s just not realistic. There are so many applicants, and if everyone got accepted with good scores, it would be significantly harder to train 500+ physicians to become competent doctors.
Thank you for the great information. I am a few years away from med school and I am making a career change in my 40s. Taking notes and hoping to find some meaningful experiences over the next few years.
You got this Brian! With all your dedication and courage in yourself, you can do anything
Thank you for giving me insight into this process. As a paramedic with over 12,000 hours of experience in a 911 service, I was afraid that my years of dedication would not be a factor in acceptance.
It’s so weird to listen to the podcast and now have a face to match the voice. 😅
this was me lool
wow spot on advice! exactly the reason why I didn't get in bs/md programs from high school
What was ur stats. I’m in high school actually. What stats should I have for a Bs/Md program?
Any advice?
Dr. Q I think my stats were 1500 on the SAT and 91-92 gpa, but this was 13 years ago. Best advice is other than good grades, try to shadow as much as you can. I wasn’t able to do any shadowing.
Shawn Varghese, ok thanks dude.
This is an incredibly insightful video. Thank you both for contributing to and sharing this with us.
It’s always interesting to see grades from someone that went to the same university that I currently attend in an area that is very familiar to me. (UMN/Minneapolis)
Same! I'm not going there for undergrad but I have some credits.
he didn't say anything about the classes he took, he did not take organic chemistry 2 or biochemistry and also no higher level biology beside genetics.
The personal statement section is definitely helpful for when I start applying to the post-bacc programs in a few months.
School list, school list, school list. All I'm gonna say bruh.
His problem was ( I failed to get a job as a musication, so I want to be a doctor )
yep big time
Wouldn't be surprised if he was emboldened by some recent adcomms videos. Like 5 of the 7 videos I've watched talk about music majors being accepted, which I just found odd.
Good applicant. PS could've used some work in being more cohesive and natural linking music and medicine together. School list by far the worst part- complete garbage. Unique apps are one thing, but high stat unique apps are what schools like Vagelos and mayo get. Far too many ivys/t10 (columbia, brown [already favors their own premeds heavily], mayo). Case is a good pick, but doesnt have the research background to really give him that edge there.) and a lot of in-state heavy public schools as you mentioned. Def needs a better list with more private schools at his stat range and he will get in no problem with his unique background. Also, sci background only from a CC leaves questions as to performance in med school. Of course mcat is seen as "the great equalizer" but no sci courses at all from a 4-yr always leaves doubts
Imbes Exactly especially his MCAT score is not good enough for Ivy’s and Mayo. He should have just stuck with local MD schools in his home state and some DO schools. He would have gotten in.
I feel like if you're not getting in with a 4.0 its because you either did not meet the pre-reqs for that school, have terrible ECs, have a terrible interview and or a terrible MCAT - hell maybe a mix of all of those. A 4.0 is amazing and sufficient GPA wise but you cannot neglect the other criteria, this is not a foreign idea.
Well his MCAT is not terrible. It was just too low for the schools he was applying too. He should added some DO schools in the list
I see that there is a section for military service. Does being a veteran help? I want to work in the VA and I am a veteran with an honorable discharge. It is certainty a way to stand out and be unique.
I absolutely think that helps. It shows a pattern of providing service to people. Be sure to include that, and good luck!
Oh yeah they love that
Bro, they’d kiss your toes for that
@@alexgarcia977 wait re your serious? Does serving in the reserves count? 6 years
Love that he has a music background. He definitely would’ve had better luck if he had applied to more private and D.O schools and spending more time on telling his story on his application
Dr. Gray, this is very insightful and very eye opening. I am possibly leaving teaching after 23 years to pursue my childhood dream of becoming a doctor. Any suggestions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Try again next cycle I think you will get in.
Could this be about academics? He has done well in his postbac but that’s at a community college, and the 508 suggests those As didn’t correspond to actual mastery.
Yeah those most likely played a larger role than suggested by the video
I love this series! I just found your channel/podcast and I'm learning so much thank you.
Question, does anyone know if being a hospice volunteer would be considered clinical experience? I would be helping patients/family members as they journey with a life-ending disease but it is not hands-on.
Yes, it's definitely clinical and something I talk about all the time!
Medical School Headquarters Thanks for getting back to me. You’re the best!
@Dr. Gray, is it okay not to have shadowing hours if you have significant clinical experience- being a CNA, volunteering oversees, etc.?
Dr. Gray, I completely understand and respect your opinion on why shadowing should not be considered a most valuable experience; however, I was wondering if you felt that there are exceptions to that? Most of my shadowing hours are from a free clinic in my hometown, and the doctors allow us to be a little more interactive with the patients than in a regular clinical setting. Moreover, the experience has opened my eyes to socioeconomic impacts in healthcare today, and it has led me to develop a passion for helping those who cannot afford healthcare. Additionally, being from a predominantly spanish-speaking community, being in this specific clinic has opened my eyes to communication barriers between primarily english-speaking physicians and those who speak other languages. This has led me to pursue Spanish as a foreign language so that I can more effectively communicate with my future patients and allow them to feel more comfortable in an exam room without the need of a translator. Are these valid reasons to consider this shadowing experience “most valuable” or should I just bring this to focus in my personal statement? Thank you for these videos as well as supporting those of us who were trying to get registered for the MCAT yesterday!!
Oof....that guys GPA trashes mine. I think a postbacc and some big time extracurriculars are in my future :(
love this series, keeeep it up, looking forward to more!!!!! here from the podcast
I can't believe that's an application a grown man submitted and expected his passion would shine through... Now I'm just curious where is he now, any updates??
What types of clinical and volunteer activities will be beneficial to making sure this is the right career choice?
I 100% want to be a physician, I'm just starting this journey and it's been amazing! :-) Now I'm looking into the most beneficial extra curriculars!
Any shadowing or clinical experiences that you can get under your belt will significantly help in your ability to demonstrate your commitment and exposure to medicine. As for other extracurriculars, just make sure you are well rounded and have some volunteer work and hobbies/passions!
@@thejuliacarter Thank you, I'm only a year into college and I'm trying find the life - school balance!
Lemme tell you as a medical student, this kid didnt get interviews bc the system is broken and uses the hopes and dreams of kids to make stupid profits.
*He didn't get interviews because he was majorly lacking on clinical exposure, and his personal statement seemed to point to him choosing medicine because he could not be successful as a musician.
Marie P His MCAT score at 509 is low for the schools he applied. That list was unrealistic. He should have focused on local instate schools, 1 top school, and some DO schools.
@@lovefunkrockmusic Yes, also true. The system sucks, but being so quick to blame it will not lead to any personal growth for anyone.
What about general community service showing that helping others is genuine and leadership roles?
I think that's just as important! I personally had a lot more community service (non-clinical) than clinical experience and I did pretty well getting interviews and acceptances. As long as your general community service is something you are passionate about and not just doing it to do it.
@@kedtalks1480 Would you put community service (non-clinical) under the experience section or else well in the application?
@@noahbrown9497 It's been a while since I opened my AMCAS, to be honest, but I believe you would put it under the experience section. I remember there's an option in the drop-down menu where one of the choices is community service or non-clinical work volunteering.
A couple questions... If it is best to lump all shadowing together but you have shadowing from different places, which place do you put down for contact? Also, for publications and conference abstracts/presentations, do you know who we put down as contact? I have a few abstracts that I am first author and a publication that I am 3 author.
Thank you for sharing this. This was very helpful to go through the application and what is expected.
Isn't it still relatively early in interview season? He could still get some in the next upcoming months
His application was from 2018
I think it is 15 months, not 3 months? 3/2018-6/2019, not sure if that was caught or not.
By the time he applied (6/2018) it had only been 3 months
Emily lol that makes sense cause I kept looking in the comments for someone to say something! Thank you for clarifying
What are examples of clinical jobs students can get? Meaning jobs that will let you work just a couple days a week, not full time
Personal statement was his downfall
Hye Dr. Ryan, does being a radio tech count as clinical experience despite it being an associates degree?
Does medical scribing fall under clinical experience hours?
Yes
No, I believe they recently changed scribing to peri-clinical
yes! It's probably one of the better clinical experiences too!
So applying to in-state schools is better because they will think that you will stay in-state post med school?
Hello! I love your videos and the advice that you give. I just had a question... I shadowed a surgeon for a long time but I was also involved with prepping patients for surgery and attending to their needs after... So I was wondering would something like this be broken up into two sections for the experience section or just all in one? Thank you!
If you did those activities as a part of your shadowing experience, I'd just include it with the shadowing in the description, and if it is most impactful talk about a particular patient's case that really hit home with you when you took care of them. My best advice anyway.
Well shiiiit 4.0
Well, also it was at a community college...not the most rigorous.
I live in the twin cities and have 4.0 and 509 mcat score and got 5 interviews
Would you like to brag even more?
And?
Do you want a trophy or something? I’ve been accepted to numerous medical schools on my first try. I win.
Shout out lgbtq2sa. And though your personal essay was a little off topic your English writing skills are excellent and you'll do great next cycle.
“ I cleaned rooms..so you were kinda a janitor person” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
that was hilarious
It's almost impossible to get shadowing
Right now absolutely it is, but in general too I agree. I shadowed a radiologist, who I knew, and a endovascular surgeon, who my mom knew. I also would have shadowed an ER doc I know too if the opportunity had presented itself, but he was always pretty busy and so was I, so our schedules just ended up not meshing well.
I know. It’s ridiculous.
Listing cleaning rooms and fetching blankets as a formative experience seems disingenuous, especially in contrast with his writing on musical experiences.
Really like the new Pr compound. Haha
thanks :) - Check out premedshirts.com
His problem was ( I failed to get a job as a musication, so I want to be a doctor )
Does hospice have volunteer opportunities?
I absolutely do not want to sound mean, but his personal statement made absolutely no sense. Sounds like something that my younger brother would write.
@MedicalSchoolHeadquarters
I volunteered in a hospital where i would play and entertain children (patients basically) does this count as clinical experience?
Unfortunately not
@@jono2245 that sucks but thanks for the reply!
Micaela Royo Yea it does the wtf. Do you only play with them? During my experiences I talked to them, talked to their parents, tried to help them when they were in pain or uncomfortable, while also observing docs on their shifts. If you frame it right and extrapolate the right experiences it absolutely is clinical experience.
@@AAdogman999 I do just that! I even console crying parents and children, and most of the time the nurses come in a put in IVs and check vitals and stuff; could I write something like that on the AMCAS and they would consider it clinical experience?
Micaela Royo yea that sounds good to me. Do you ever go in patients rooms? While not part of my “volunteer description” I have some experiences from that as well, watching IV placements and such. While I would also try and get some “traditional” experiences like shadowing (shadowing for sure actually) or being an EMT, if you feel you can talk an hour about your experiences and how those experiences made you wanna be a Doctor then you should be good.
I feel so bad for him :(
How does being considered disadvantaged affect your possibilities of being admitted?
How can someone email him ?
how can i participate in this?
Is an A in a community college course the same as an A in a uni?
Jon Perez An A is an A. I did most of my pre-reqs at a community college and I don’t think it affected me too much. I will say that what matters is how your GPA differs from community college to uni. If your GPA at a CC is much higher than your GPA at a university, than that may be a red flag.
Jason Lee yes CC is much cheaper than a 4 year university. It won’t necessarily save you time however. I still wouldn’t recommend doing all of your pre-reqs at a CC though. You should still do some at a 4 year university.
some schools don't accept CC grades
Steve Chang Very few have that policy. I applied to a lot of schools and had a pretty successful cycle despite taking most of my pre-reqs at a CC.
Cameron Fateri ahh, asking because I’m a non traditional student who took 4 classes at a college after graduating before transferring back to university. But I kept in touch with some buddies and they told me their orgo labs didn’t even require lab reports, and the lecture were cake.. lol there’s no denying that CC classes are many times easier than if you were to take the same class in a university.
He should have applied DO and not incredibly competitive MD's.
His problem was in his personal statements, probably is too long
The personal statement maxes out at 5300 characters, so it can't be "too long."
Yeah, I agree. Here's my 2 cents: Personal statements has to be around 730-800 words and must sound "personal" with little to no redundancy, meaning it has to be condensed, not repeating what is in the application, and to-the-point. It also has to be positive and confident, especially next to a negative experience or negatively described feeling.
simply_raz exactly and I also think that the person who has to read all that will be boring to the end, and most probably just do no understand why that person want to say
Betsi Yep! Most definitely! The committee has seen it ALL. With him, he either thought too hard about impressing the schools or did not do enough as he probably thought his scores could stand alone. They wouldn’t tell him apart from all the other applicants of a similar portfolio. He did not answer WHY he wants to be a physician. That’s the hardest part. Okay, I feel like I’m ranting a bit lol.
I feel like his school choices were too competitive
Why would your parents jobs matter
this is a really, really bad personal statement. It killed his application.
Appearance is everything at first glance. He looks sad & depressed. This would not bode well in an interview. (I did interviews at CWRU dent. sch., and the 1st four minutes are critical).
Applying med school has become a red ocean. Way too saturated. Does that mean we have better doctors now? It doesnt matter, U.S insurance system is still shitty
Why is the guy not looking at the camera.. and keeps looking at something else the whole time as if this doesn’t matter to him.
I think he’s taking notes on the side!
For all the love I have for the US this process of 'selling your story' for admissions is soooo dramatic and convoluted, it boggles my mind. Why doesn't the US allow college admissions based on objective test scores? Why do you need to have a person 'sell themselves'? Just make shadowing hours and research hours be at a mandatory minimum to apply, and you are done.
Daniel Majumder good grades and test scores don’t mean that you’ll be a good doctor/good at working with people. Even if you’re a genius, if you don’t have the social skills and passion, people won’t be as comfortable with you as doctor.
Patients don't give a shit about if you are a genius or not. Social skills and how you deal with them is all they care about. The patient wants someone to connect or listen to them at a level where they feel comfortable in sharing their needs / wants. I work at the VA and many veterans share their stories about Doctors not being able to connect socially and spit out data and they don't even know or care because it seemed to complex when telling them.
It should be both scores and your past experiences in why you wanted to be a Doctor to begin with.
No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care. - Theodore Roosevelt
can dr ryan gray read my personal statement 🥺
Nope he’s too busy for people like you.
Thank you for the great information. I am a few years away from med school and I am making a career change in my 40s. Taking notes and hoping to find some meaningful experiences over the next few years.