Robert & Cora's Marital Crisis | Downton Abbey
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- Опубликовано: 14 сен 2019
- Since Sybil's death, nothing was quite the same again. Cora blames Robert , who ignored Dr Clarkon's warning in favour of the opinions of Sir Philip Tapsell.
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Cora was absolu-freaking-lutely right about this and I'm so glad Robert faced some consequences for this, for once. When he nearly cheated with that maid and was treating Cora terribly, she forgave him (for the part she knew). When he squandered Cora's fortune, Cora forgave him immediately. She was endlessly patient. But here, her baby was dead and she just couldn't muster up the patience and forgiveness for a little while. It's amazing to me that she ever did.
I agree with your sentiment but I do believe Robert cheated, not "nearly" cheated. He cheated physically and emotionally as far as I'm concerned. He crossed lines which I personally would never forgive. But it shows how strong their love and marriage is, because most marriages do not survive the loss of a child...
I love Robert but he entirely deserved to be treated this way.
Manon Segur Cant agree there. He's not a doctor, and he'd been given ridiculous advice which he trusted by that idiot Tapsell.
@@disorientalism I absolutely love it when Cora unknowingly uses that against him when he's all upset about that art guy that I can't remember the name of.
She did because Dr. Clarkson "massaged" medical truth based on Lady Violet's suggestion.
The line "Like too many women before her." Always kills me because it is a painful truth.
Yeah but she didn’t have to
My great-great grandmother & her mother both. In their twenties. Both bled out.
@@davidcorruthers78 that’s the point
In 2018, the last year that the statistics are available, 17 out of every 100,000 women died in childbirth in the United States alone.
That line kills me too, and while it's true a great number of women died in child birth in the 1920s, and beyond, heart disease replaced childbirth as the #1 cause of death for women in 1908, and is the #1 cause today. 1 in 3 deaths of women is the result of heart disease.
THE FACT IS: Regardless of the likelihood of Sybil's survival had she had a ceasarean, Robert made the choice to ignore Clarkson in favour of Tapsell for all the petty, pretentious, nonsensical reasons Cora stated. He chose to risk his daughter's life for the sake of saying "Sir Phillip Tapsell delivered my grandchild" over dinner to impress people of no consequence. That's the bottom line. I completely see why Cora blamed him and even after discovering the probability of survival, I still wouldn't have forgiven him.
hisserenehighness considering that is true but their daughter is dead and violet was right. Now is not the time to fight when their daughter is dead and their grandchild and son in law need them most. Be angry over his shallowness later and not forgive him but they still need to move on over her death together and be a partnership. Not as it was before but at least Cora holds him accountable. And Robert admits humility b
@@KoiYakultGreenTea Except that's not what happened. The Dowager used Clarkson to emotionally manipulate Cora into taking Robert back, and as soon as she did, all was forgotten and Robert never got his comeuppance, which he deserved.
wings of a butterfly not true for all doctors. As can be seen in the show, Philip tapsel seems to have thriving business with elite clientele. He makes sure to boast this at dinner to make his point that he is a good doctor.
This. The fact that Cora forgave Robert over a lie wasn't even the worst part - it was the fact that nobody seemed to realise or care that the issue was Robert WOULD have condemned Sybil regardless of the "facts", just due to his own arrogance and stubbornness. THAT'S the part where he f***ed up, and I wish he'd gotten his proper comeuppance for it.
@@SneezyReviews That all may be true, but Robert genuinely believed he was doing the right thing, he really did believe that Sir Philip was right (obviously for all the wrong reasons). He doesn't need comeuppance, nothing can hit him more than losing his daughter. What more comeuppance does he need. The bottom line is that everyone had Sybil's best interests at heart. Though Robert was concerned with rank, nobility, etc I don't think he ever put that over Sybil's safety. He literally thought that those things assured her safety. He was wrong, but his crime wasn't a malicious one, it really was an honest, fool's mistake and he paid the highest price. There was no need to bring more suffering.
I've noticed that every time the Dowager needs emotional support she touches the walls of downton for strength
I had not noticed that but it is a subtle and brilliant dramatic choice.
Thats not the abbey but the Dower house.
thesenceofmorality 🙄
Oh my it’s true!
@@thesenceofmorality The Dower house is where Matthew's Mother lives...
Imagine trying to save the life of a patient who you've helped since her birth, with clear symptoms staring everyone in the face, just to be shouted at by some snobby doctor and belittled in front of everyone, then to be sadly proven right, with no way of saving her once the fitting began, to then be told by the Dowager Countess to basically go to the parents and basically say that you were wrong all along. (Yes I know C-Section in the 1920s would have had a significant mortality rate, but still better then succuming to eclampsia) Poor Dr Clarkson.
Clarkson also admitted the chances were slim to none. But considering a chance is better than the alternative then he was right. He wasn’t really lying. But he just obfuscated slightly
their entire family besides Cora are all just awful, inconsiderate and un-self-aware people, aren't they? Totally out of touch with reality and no compassion or empathy for the poorer classes and their suffering.
@@skylaralexis7699 why did you even watch this show if you think that?
@@KoiYakultGreenTea am I not allowed to watch a show even if I’m critical of it? What sort of absurd logic is this exactly? By the same logic, if you don’t agree with my comment then why are you replying to me? Because you can, right? Same reason I watched the show. The fact that anyone has to explain the fundamental basics of free will to a person 🙄
@@skylaralexis7699 I just wonder why you think the family so negatively when the whole point of the show is to humanise them.
I love that as a mother-in-law, she sympathized with Cora. Even chose to support her over Robert during the Ethel scene. She saw that her son and daughter-in-law were suffering and needed some intervention. Sybil was dead and no amount of being angry was going to bring her back. Instead of telling Cora to get over it and forgive her son, like many mother-in-laws would do, she understood her pain. She didn't blindly support Robert but did what she could, to mend the crack in their marriage.
I disagree. Yes she meant well, but interfering by bringing the doctor in like that, I would have felt very disrespected and like she was trying to manipulate me (which she was, in fact).
"I will not criticize a mother who is grieving for her daughter."
A mother's love is one of the most powerful and can be one of the scariest things on earth.
“Is that a Charlotte Russe? How DELICIOUS!” The way Cora says this line tickles me. Totally unbothered by Robert’s ranting! 😂😂😂
Erin Johnson oh I love the way she speaks
She definitely wasn't having anymore of his pompous gruff
@ (Likes&Favorites) have you been drinking?
@@sdearing6375 surely not drunk but has a. Wide range to the meaning of respect, I mean he cheat on her that crosses the line to me!
@ (Likes&Favorites) She says plenty nice about and to him. Where on earth are you coming from?
Elizabeth McGovern's performance was absolutely heart-wrenching.
I've seen the scene where we lost Sybil and the subsequent scenes related to her death. Elizabeth McGovern makes me cry every time I see them. The scene where she is sitting with her baby and says, "My beauty, my baby" while stroking her arm is so, so sad. PEACE to ALL ... and STAY SAFE and HEALTHY.
Poor Cora was devastated when Sybil died
Cora's words to Robert in their bedroom are probably the most devastating any character ever addressed to another in all Downton Abbey. She was in unbelievable pain, and he loves her so much that to hear such words coming from her would be utterly crushing. Great acting, writing, and quiet understated direction.
They did indeed crush him. If you notice, as he walks away from the bedroom door, he’s trying to hide his tears.
@@kachi9293 Well, I see your point, but the house is entailed to the Crawley male heirs, so there’s no way she’s getting it.
@@kachi9293would it be better? Even if it were his fault now in 2023, do you honestly believe it would have been better for them to divorce, to suffer the pain of loosing a child separately? To live their lives alone though they obviously love each other very much?
This was the only moment when someone rightfully held Robert accountable. Cora held her tongue when he lost her fortune, she held her tongue when he insisted and didn’t fight for Mary’s rights, no one ever slapped this guy for cheating on Cora, whereas Bricker crosses a line against Cora’s wishes. Also he married her for the money. This was a very necessary fight that the couple needed to have and it was quickly resolved
Mobeen A. Oh, so well-put!!
@devildog1982z wow calm down dude
Period
@devildog1982z Be nice, but he was right. Calm the fuck down. LOLOLOL
devildog1982z considering he took beloved the posh doctor over a doctor that had known her all her life that had been barking and barking over the warning signs long before she started to get bad, he rightfully guilty of wasting time that lowered the probability of her surviving her pregnancy
Cora crying in the end really makes one teary eyed, the pain of losing a child is written all over her face, like it was real…really excellent acting.
I too cried. You could read her pain in her eyes.
Elizabeth says a lot with her expressions
Robert's character is so complex. His upbringing and his position has made him snobbish toward certain people, yet he could just as easily go downstairs and celebrate with the servants when something wonderful happens in their lives. There are moments when his pride influences his judgement, but there are also times when he recieves a dose of reality and we get to see the real Robert Crawley beneath. There are times when we are angry with him and times when we admire him, which is how Julian Fellows wanted us to see him.
It reminds me a lot of my dad, a good man but a product of his environment and his generation. A good man with flaws. What I like about DA is the complexity of the people and how real they seem. As there are two sides of Robert or Mary, as well as in all people.
It broke my heart when Robert was walking away from Cora's bedroom, tears running down his face. I know he made a poor decision and was trying to make it right. At least he admitted that there was truth in what Cora said.
jdrews17 exactly. Sometimes I was upset at Robert and wanted to give him a slap but sometimes I wanted to hug him. Mary was the same way she was kind to those who knew her well and even tho she was cold and strong minded, she has a soft side which I live about her
I agree. Sometimes Robert could be such a snob, but other times he was such a good and caring person, not just to his family. I always remember when he stopped the car and gave Bates his job back. He knew in his heart it was wrong to send Bates away.
I love, love when Robert holds Cora & cries with her at the end of this scene.
Shared grief.
Beautiful writing, beautiful playing done.
Thank you.
God how much I hated this part of the series...Sybil was such a precious and lovely character. So sad.
So true, but unfortunately, the actress did not wish to renew her contract after the initial three years. Then, the actor who played Matthew also opted not to renew his contract.
Juli 94: I cried then, I cry now, again, because it is so well acted and it doesn’t change a thing, knowing that Sybil HAD to die because ´she’ was no longer available.... THAT is good acting.
Blame the actress, not the show. (Who is the actress again?)
@@BelleBlack1 Jessica Brown Findlay portrayed Lady Sybil.
That doctor handled his role in that last scene really well. Told them what they needed to hear without compromising his integrity. Solid job, doctor.
What they needed to hear???
Im sorry but the doctor should not have lied to him and violet should not have pressured him to do that that was wrong of her and she should've stayed out of it
I understand divorce was sort of a forbidden thing to do for any royal family but if cora did eventually decide to separate from Robert over his very foolish actions then I'm sorry but I obviously wouldn't have any sympathy for Robert
He chose a doctor who was arrogant and high and mighty over a doctor who has known all of the daughters since they were kids
It was his way of trying to resist any sort of change that the great war has provided to people especially royal families
Robert clearly didn't treat the lower class people with as much respect as the show likes to put on
I don't think he lied. He told the truth. There was no way she was going to live, given the time it would take to get her to York to perform the operation. It's unlikely they had the necessary equipment at the village hospital. As he said, she would've been subjected to a hurried and rushed procedure when in all liklihood it would've been too late anyway. Don't forget, this is a time where roads were narrow, bumpy, and cars didn't go very fast. It was nighttime. There just simply wasn't time to do the operation. And even if there were, the survival rate is still small. So no, the doctor never actually lied.
He didn´t lie. You need to remember it was set in like a century ago in a rural village.@@brendenreecegaming284
@@brendenreecegaming284even if so, even if the fault was only Robert's (which it wasn't, he just believed the more famous doctor and at that time when c-section wasn't such a common operation I can see why.) But even if that was true do you honestly believe that divorce or separation is better for Cora than to live through this tragedy with her loving husband by her side? A husband that didn't do anything malicious but looking out for their daughter's best interest
@@user-sz9wh8ow9e he may have wanted his daughters best interests, but look at the other things he has done he nearly made his own family live out in the streets
The way he handled Sybil's death should have been the last straw all he wanted to say was a famous doctor helped my daughter give birth to a baby
He didn't care about the lower class as he acted his actions was despicable
This wasn't the way to go about it, essentially gas-lighting Cora and making her think she was exaggerating the issue when it just a simple fact that Robert was being a pompous, perhaps even classist idiot on the night. It didn't help anything to make him think he was right all along when his arrogance cost literally cost his daughter her life. How maddening to be a woman in marriage in those days. She knew what should have been but her voice was completely and totally ignored because Robert didn't want to "embarass" Sir what's his face. Can you imagine???? Your daughter is literally screaming in pain and you're worried about embarrassing someone with a title. Priorities, darling.
I totally agree with you, although perhaps for her it was better to be at peace with her memory and concience if she thought Sybil´d death wasn´t preventable. I can´t imagine a parent living with that kind of pain and sorrow. (Although I don´t condone Violet´s meddlings and poor dr embarrasement)
It was a very dangerous operation. The way to save Sybil with a cesarean was before she went into labor
@MandieTerrier It would have given her a better chance before the labor but while in labor the operation would have given her a chance to survive.
Even today every operation is a risk.
A 100 years ago the risk was greater. So Sybil might have lived. More likely she would have died during the operation.
@@Qq-vh5jqMaybe, but then at least they would have known they did everything they could. No manipulation needed from the frickin' Dowager to reach that same conclusion (sorry but I got so mad at her).
“I should think you miss her more, since you blocked the last chance we had to prevent her death” perhaps the cruelest thing one can say to another.
Honestly, all these years later and that line still has the power to snatch my breath
Robert deserve every bit and more
Right! I agreed with her, but it was mean as hell. He's grieving, too.
@@freyasheart9527 It’s a bit of a statement to say that because we have hindsight he did not. Tapsil was certain Clarkson was not, Robert isn’t psychic and I think most people would have trusted Tapsil. And you cannot blame Robert for wanting what he perceived as the “best” doctor for his first grandchild. I presume he did not expect Tapsil’s ego to get in the way as much as it did
It may not have even saved her . The chances where so low.
I love how Robert lists all the reasons he forgot Sybil is gone. I find it very touching and the best way for a father to commemorate his daughter.
That line right there showed how truly and deeply he loved Sibyl. I think, that as much as he admired and loved Mary, and was lenient and slightly more permissive with his middle child, his favorite was always Sibyl. He got enraged when Sibyl got hurt during a protest in the first season, he railed against sibyl's marriage (his reasons were not entirely without prejudice and bias, of course) because he thought she was "throwing away her life" or as he saw it, her future with Branson (which nowadays would be the same as not wanting to go to college), and later he almost wanted to murder Branson for leaving his PREGNANT daughter to fend for herself in a land that was not her own, meaning she totally helpless and alone, without anyone to help her. Without him able to help her. Instead, he was stuck trying to save and offer asylum to his wayward son-in-law. While Cora may have been the more encouraging and slightly more permissive parent towards Sybil it doesn't change the fact that Robert loved her any less. In fact, all throughout the series until her death, he showed how much he loved her, and wanted to protect her, as any parent should. In fact, even when he made the great mistake of taking Sir Philip's words over Dr. Clarckson's, he did it out of LOVE. Again Cora is partly right in pointing all the nonsense that patriarchal and high society believed and put stock in, but when you strip that, one is able to see that he wanted to provide his daughter with the BEST care possible that his money and influence could afford him. He had lost a little faith in Clarckson, therefore he wanted to be SURE that his daughter's life would be in capable hands. He didn't want to take a RISK. He didn't want to gamble with Sybil's life. He heard the word "sure" "certain" "mom and baby will be fine and healthy" from one doctor and he clung tightly to that, only to realize that to his horror and guilt that he did the exact thing he was trying to prevent. Which is to put his daughter's life in jeopardy.
I do that too. I lost my dad three years ago and every time something happens that he would get a kick out of, I go to tell him and then I remember that he's gone.
So true, you remember parts of the ongoing conversation, the things that you would like to share & then a little of the sadness of not being able to carry on the conversation.
@@TheRaike24 At last, a little logic in the vast sea of blaming
In cases such as Dr. Clarkson's, it shows how difficult it is to balance your professional oath and your loyalty to a great family. Even though I understand why the Dowager did what she thought was necessary to save the Crawley's marriage, I still found myself resenting that sense of entitlement she showed when she essentially manipulated the delivery of the facts.
It really shows you how the characters you've grown to like are really mirrors (in some instances) of the flawed beings you can actually find in reality. And that's what I like about this show.
Sullivan Hamilton and part of the oath is to do no harm, it is an oath of healing, surely his oath would agree to an extent. To ease suffering in cases such as these, to ‘lie’ would help ease it and help them grieve
Well he does say that there was not a 100% chance of survival. He even admits to Violet before his research there were not many who survived. And he says that his research revealed that the chance was tiny.
Sullivan Hamilton you are right but just another point a break up of a marriage especially a land owner for that village would mean people farmers losing there rented land. the village losing a special status. small thing to consider but its there.
Genesis ** I doubt they would have divorced. It was still totally frowned upon at this point for their class. They would have continued married but Cora probably would have started spending more time away on the continent or made more frequent trips to the states.
I can see a depressed Robert making foolish choices and the co-ownership with Matthew would have been pretty rough sailing.
@@dsatt57 i didn't mean divorce in my comment either
Clarkson had a good heart (even though he had to selectively spin the narrative the way Violet wanted it explained) and Robert deserved all that Cora gave him. I see Violet's point -- Sybil was already gone, but Cora/Robert needed to heal. Even if Robert's elitist attitude was to blame for Sybil's death, it wouldn't bring Sybil back or change how Sybil died. Clarkson was right that night, and Tapsell DID ignore the warning signs, but Clarkson sacrificed his pride to help heal a marriage affected by grief.
I could see how he didn't want to do this, he didn't want to almost discredit himself, but at the same time - he had been blocked from even a chance of saving Sybil, but Cora- a woman he has known for years, he has a chance to let her heal, to allow this new baby with no mother, to at least have a grandmother not swallowed by grief. So he upholds his oath to help and heal, and he helps heal a marriage in order to help a baby whose mother he wasn't allowed to try to save.
(A C-section in their day was far away from any guarentee of Sybil living, but I do wonder if at least had she died in a C-section she would have been unconscious and unlike a regular delivery, given some measure of pain relief, so she would have had a more peaceful passing).
It. was. not. their. marriage. to. heal!
The moment Robert and Corra embrace and just loose it...finally grieving together for the loss of their child...gets me everytime.
I know it still guts me.
I just had to run for the tissues 😭
Matthews death, unfortunately, was spoiled for me with various interviews and the global reaction since I only started watching the series in 2017. But Sybil’s death really caught me off guard since it really came out of nowhere and the public somehow preserved that scene from getting out
Same for me. I think most people jist act as though it never happened
Some of us are still grieving and can't really talk about it just yet
Because we all repressed it from our memories
I didn't know Christmas specials were a thing in England so I thought the third series ended at the Cricket match. When I saw the article about his death while I was doing some googling, I was like 'Whaaat?!' insert Pikachu face. I was yelling murder everywhere until I finally got to see what really happened.
Same
6:06
Is that a Charlotte Rouse? How delicious!
*Cora says, while having an argument with her husband*
*an icon*
Charlotte Russe. That's french.
@@fan2jnrc I love Charlotte. She's great :) lol
One of my favorite lines in the whole series.
In a very distress situation, I can always make an allowance for delicious food.
besides Anna's assault, I think Sybil's death was the saddest "event" of the whole show. Sybil was such a sweet person, kind, smart, strong-willed, less selfish than her family. Their reactions when she was dying were so painful to watch. I understand the Dowager wanting her son and daughter-in-law to find support in each other in the face of such a tragedy
I have to add Matthew's sudden death. I was so shocked when that happened, just didn't see that one coming.
Dr. Clarkson should not have had to apologize smh.
There is no greater pain in the world than the pain of a mother losing her child. Cora carried Sybil for 9 months and she lost her after 24 years just because Robert chose to listen to Tapsell, who has no idea of Sybil’s history, rather than to Dr. Clarkson, who knew Sybil’s medical history.
Tapsell was the expert in the field though. If you want a skin operation you will always trust a dermatologist over a GP. Both parents wanted her to live, they just had different methodologies and no one knew which was right because medicine was so shaky then.
@@MsJubjubbirdIn real life I'd agree, but this was played up for drama, and the so-called expert ignored a lot of obvious signs (like Clarkson said). He was intended as a villain in the context of the show, making it harder to understand why Robert listened to him.
This compilation cut out one of the Dowager's best lines and interactions with Robert:
"My dearest boy, I rarely speak of the heart because it is seldom helpful to do so; but I know well enough the pain when it is broken."
You're right that was a magnificent comment by the Dowager!
I hated that the Dowager did this: she forced the poor doctor to lie, to humiliate himself, and he saved Robert, who frankly didn't deserve it. He's such a moron! He didn't protect Cora's dowry, he did nothing to at least try and break the entailment, he cheated on his wife, he condemned Sybil, etc etc. Cora deserves so much better than him
@Hannah Dyson But Cora didn't say that Sybill would have lived, just that she had some chances. The dowager forced the doctor to say he was wrong and there was no chance at all.
What good is "being right" at a time like this? Sybil was dead and being right wasn't good thing bring her back and neither was divorce. They needed the come together and grieve so the family could heal.
@@ChristineTheHippie What bothers me is that Robert always had it light, he never truly faced the consequences of his stupidity. He made many mistakes in life and always got out of it without a scratch
@@msinvincible2000 he lost his daughter.
@@msinvincible2000 deep down he knows he was wrong trust me
Oh this is so exquisitely done.
The way Robert and Cora embrace at the end while the Dowager grips the overmantel and turns her back. It’s like art.
Absolutely beautiful scene, so very well acted by all
Elizabeth McGovern was brilliant in the show. she should've gotten more acclaim for her performances.
That moment when Cora allows Robert to hold her and grieve with her and they weep together over their daughter's death knifes my soul 💔
Cora's grief is to real for me.
She reminds me of my grieving late mother when my late brother passed by surprise, just like late Sybil is.
Unfortunately, my late mother's grief was too much for her to bear and she passed soon after.
May she rest in peace.She must be with your brother now , happy in all eternity.Dtay blessed.You have two angels watching over you now.
May she rest in peace
I think deep down they both knew he was lying, especially Cora. But she knew it was time to stop living in the past, and that the survival of Sybil was not guaranteed, even if Philip went about it the wrong way. Clarkson definitely should not have had to lie, let alone apologise but if this was a way to stop them for separating, then it may have been necessary. I think they all knew it was her intervention too. But it was not fair of him to be blamed
Clarkson: She had eclampsia. I thought a C-section would save her but there was a good chance it wouldn't have.
Robert: So the doctor who said she didn't have eclampsia and everything was okay was right?
Clarkson: DID I STUTTER, YO?!
that scene is the silliest of all in the whole of Downton. Clarkson was right of course she should have had the baby in a hospital and a CC. Clarkson to betray his compass was silly. He just put himself that in the future why would the other sisters believe him.
Right, if I was him I would have back smacked his ignorant ass. Questioning my medical expertise 😆.
@@genesis1765 The problem is that back then a C section was extremely extremely dangerous. For one, they were done with a midline incision (meaning they cut the belly parallel to the mother's spine) which was rather large, as opposed to the much smaller low transverse incision used nowadays. They had no antibiotics (penicillin was first discovered in 1928) and their aseptic technique was not as advanced, so the mother could easily get an infection and die. I'm not sure if they did transfusions back then, but even if they did, they could not have been very sophisticated, so there was also a danger of severe blood loss. The C section itself could have easily killed Sybil instead of saving her. So it wasn't really a choice between letting Sybil die or saving her, it was more of a choice between hoping that the pre-eclampsia wouldn't progress to eclampsia and kill her before the baby was born or doing a C-section which would cure the pre-eclampsia (the only definite cure is to deliver the baby) but could very well kill her from blood loss, infection, or a clot (among several other things). Not an easy choice to make by any means.
Sybils death effected Tom and Cora the most, but what i think is over looked is that Cora fell into a depression the same as Tom did which is noticeable in the episodes that follow.
Everyone keeps saying that it was Robert's fault or that Cora was too harsh. It was Sir what's-his-face's fault for ignoring all the signs. And honestly, society for not letting a woman choose about her own health. Everyone had a choice in the matter except Sybil. They even chose her doctor for her. And I, personally, would no let Sir what's-his-face anywhere near me.
Spoken by someone raised on modern sensibilities. Cut the whole through “wouldn’t get anywhere near me” complete and utter tripe. If you were a lady of the period, you would have gone with the doctor your father picked because it’s all you’d have known. It’s so pathetic when people now act as if they’d have broken the mold if they existed in the time period when in reality they would have been the exact same or only a little different.
thing is that in those days medicine was much more guess work than it is now. The one who is right is the Dowager. Many women did die in childbirth. Medicine was just not good enough at the time and of course you'd take the credentials first. Her father loved her and spent the money to get someone with the best credentials and experience. In reality, you would want an ob gyn not a GP to deliver your baby.
@@MsJubjubbirdWell clearly preeclampsia was a well-known condition. It wasn't the 18th century..
@@monmothma3358 the knew it existed but diagnosis was guess work. It still gets missed today
"When tragedy strikes, we try to find someone to blame. In the absence of a suitable candidate we usually blame ourselves." 1:01 Such wisdom.
"Dont flirt with me Robert...not now." Robert was so pompous....dignified and pompous....he DID deserve to get checked from time to time. Hugh Bonneville himself had been quoted as saying....that of all the characters, his changed the LEAST over the run of the show (he's referring to above stairs surely)
Robert chose a doctor who specialises in childbirth over a regular gp who has been known to make several mistakes like when he misdiagnosed Matthew. So who would you choose in that situation? And secondly, Robert made a mistake, but your acting like he did something evil and deserves to be punished for trying to save his daughters life. He made a MISTAKE, that hardly deserves a punishment
@@jamielambert5267 I'm terribly sorry could you please point out where in God's name I used the word PUNISH OR PUNISHMENT? I never said that....just that he was a bit self-righteous, condescending and pompous.....not that he was a bad husband or father.
CORA... what an amazingly patient woman!
I hate how the Dowager had dr Clarkson lie tonsave her pathetic son who let his own daughter die. A filthy shame. This was literally the MOST HATED scene for me. I fast forward every time. He deserves a divorce for that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce
Divorce would only make both of them miserable till the end of their lives, since they really loved each other after so many years, and were surprisingly happy together, as for those times. It's never smooth and cloudless, especially when in such grief...
Honestly
Agreed. Robert plays the family master, the Earl of Grantham, but in reality, every time he makes an important decision, his arrogance, his lack of wisdom, and his stubbornness turns it into a disaster. He then mumble and pout while the rest of the family and/or their servants have to find a solution or deal with the mess he caused. And noone ever makes him accountable.
Lost a fortune (again) in bad investments? Had an affair before insulting and punishing Cora for flirting (what an hypocrite!)? Caused Sybil's death? Made a fucking scene to his family while they were all grieving the death HE caused? Hid from Mary that Matthew wrote a will? Fought against each and every changes that could make the estate survive and thrive?
And we could go on and on. Most upstairs characters are really annoying and despicable at times. And I know a lot of people despite Mary and/or Edith for that, which I can gasp. But for me, it's Robert that I cannot stand. Always so pretentious and totally useless at the same time, and everyone around are forced to pretend they don't notice it. It's irritating really.
People keep commenting "well Sybil would've most likely died during a C-section too."
The thing is that the choice that night wasn't to flip a coin between operating to try and prevent eclampsia or doing a natural birth and praying the pre-eclampsia didn't progress.
The entire issue was one man saying this young mother is in mortal danger, she's dying before our very eyes, and here are the signs and the CHANCE to save her vs another man saying, nope there's nothing wrong at all. No pre-eclampsia. She's totally and completely fine because I've said so. And nothing preventative or post-delivery needs to be done. That was all.
The issue of Cora's (and the audience's) rage isn't that Sybil died one way or the other. This was the '20s. No one in the show would be naive to the perils of childbirth. Least of all Cora who did it THREE times before and who had a miscarriage herself.
The issue of her rage is that they didn't TRY. They didn't try. They just let Sybil walk right into a delivery that would assuredly kill her if Philip was wrong.
*The dilemma wasn't Clarkson saying "Sybil has pre-eclampsia and a cesarean can save her." Vs Philip saying "Sybil has pre-eclampsia but a natural birth is safer." In this situation, no one would be wrong bc of how dangerous either of those avenues would have been. But that wasn't the situation. Sir Philip was just flat out WRONG.
Sir Philip didn't reject the C-section idea and say "We're not gonna slice her open, but we'll do xyz during her natural delivery to try and combat the pre-eclampsia." He just didn't do ANYTHING.
Then he just let her go to sleep. Didn't stay in the room to monitor her. Didn't say "now that the delivery is over let's discuss what to do if eclampsia does come in." Nothing.
If a child is in a burning building, a parent doesn't say "well the chance of them dying either from the flames or from trying to escape to the roof is high either way so I'm just gonna stand here and do nothing."
If you see your kid in a burning room you TRY. You look for escape. You use help offered. You TRY. And even if the kid still dies, you'd never have the same anger as you would if the child died simply because a firefighter told you there was nothing to worry about as the flames came down around you all.
THAT'S what Robert and Philip did to Cora. They stood in front of her as her daughter cried in a burning room- as Cora smelled the fire and saw the smoke and tried to find an exit (however futile)- and they told her there was absolutely nothing to worry about. That nothing was on fire.
If I were her I'd rage until my last day.
Yes I agree. But this this also probably the reason why she could finally grieve with Robert and forgive. Because she just thought about the final issue, which was death of Sybil in both cases and consequently the same awfull suffering for all of them. And also Robert very quickly ask for pardon to the doctor. This is shortened by doctor but he did and intended to do it more intensively. Robert always says that Cora was right to accuse and hate him because he is snob but honest. I think that if there had been a real chance to save Sybil, the issue would be different. And no, some people when a baby is in their burning home, juste stay under shock and ask a solution to the head of firemen and obey to him/her, and if the baby die because it's to late and fireman choose the wrong issue, they just have to live with it and it may be hard.
Also important to note the conduct of dr. Clarkson. As a medical professional you have to make the ethical decision about how to address your patients and the families. Yes you can say he shouldn’t have lied or have fudged the truth but what good would have come out of setting these grieving parents against each other? This doctor also worked and knew Sybil on a personal level so this whole situation was just as heartbreaking to him as most likely he’ll carry the guilt of feeling like he was the only one who might have been able to save her. Ge rushed out of the room as soon as he finished talking to Cora and Robert because he probably went to go cry in a corner. Because most of us medical professionals do in heartbreaking situations like this.
Notice how Tapsell wasn’t called to deliver Mary’s baby.
Mary wanted Doctor Clarkson and she delivered a month early
👀👀👀
@@jehannethompson1432 Well after what happened to her favourite sister I can't say I blame Mary!
Cora was 100% right about Robert and even if Sybil was not to survive that night, she may have had a better chance if they had listened to Dr. Clarkson. To this day, it makes me so mad that he got off relatively easily for being a major part in causing their child’s death.
"A major part" shut up.
@@frname7665 ???
I love Cora telling Robert off! He can be such a twit!😂
I hate that violet made Dr Clarkson convince Cora that Sybil was probably going to die regardless. Robert should have lived with the knowledge that his actions were reckless.
Exactly. Robert should not have been exonerated like that. Also we get zero fallout with Dr. Tapsell even though the entire thing is his fault. Nothing will ever convince me that the Crawleys didn’t sue him for everything he had and destroyed his reputation and had his medical license stripped…which is exactly what he deserved.
One thing the doctor should have included in his talk with Robert & Cora is that, even if they had taken Sybil to the hospital, besides the uncomfortable ride in the ambulance, in labor, he would have had to anesthetize her to perform the caesarean . . . And as he said, she might not, most likely, not have survived, PLUS ( and this is the bit that needed to be said ) she would probably never regained consciousness, so, by delivering at the manor, she not only got to see and hold her daughter, but knew, before the seizures hit her, that she was surrounded by family and they were thrilled & happy about the baby.
Plus there was a high chance to be exposed to an infection and die of that anyways even if she would wake up from the operation... All chances are on the table...
That last scene...it doesn't matter if I haven't seen the episodes that lead up to it in a few years now. It still gets me every... damned.... time. :(
"you believed Tapsell because he's Knighted' its weird how this hasn't changed in Great Britain, its still like this today in our society. The Great country of preservation ey.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight
actually its not, we dont give people extra credit for their occupation because they're knighted. its largely ignored. the closest thing i would say that comes to immediate deference that knighthoods used to bring someones reputation, is actually when a barrister is made a QC.
Why do you think he was knighted? Because he was a successful doctor....
It's like that in every country
@@shaunmckenzie5509 not really, our nation is thousands of years old and our institutions are reflective of that, no great revolutions, no major chance to societal structures.
I just realised how absolutely symbolic it was that Sybil the feminist and kindest woman who deserved to be a mother and became a nurse to be useful and to physically manifest her caring nature; died of childbirth. Or technically right after she did 😭
I remember being so furious when Sybil died that I stopped watching the show. I think a year passed until I decided to start watching again.
And then Matthew died and you spent another year before watching again? Because I did.
Julian Fellowes didn't choose to write her out, the actress wanted out of her contract.
imiss toronto I didn’t know that at the time.
@@imisstoronto3121 They did the same thing to Matthew, that's why he "died" 'cause Dan Stevens wanted out, lol
I really how Cora handled her grief with such gracefulness.
The only time when I didn't agree with The Dowager Countess' action throughout the entire series. Robert, as much as he did not wish to, did choose to give more weight to that posh and arrogant doctor's opinion more than Dr. Clarkson based on title and prestige, something that really shouldn't matter in medical opinions. As a result, Sybil perished when like what Dr. Clarkson said, she had a chance to be alive. And The Dowager Countess wanted Dr. Clarkson to basically "massage the truth" about medical facts just for the sake of saving a marriage. I always thought a marriage should be always based on truth and facts otherwise it's not solid. Cora might be angry and find it hard to forgive Robert because of what Robert did but at least it's based on what happened, the truth. If she comes around it should also be based on truth and facts, it shouldn't be based on lies. If Cora is angry now, she would be even angrier if she finds out that she later on forgave Robert based on "massaged" medical opinion and the fact is C-Section is indeed an effective way and only way to save the mother and even the baby in the case of pre-eclampsia as we know now. And all in all The Dowager Countess has absolutely no right to meddle in the affair based on her blind "love" for her own son at the expense of her daughter-in-law's loss. Very typical of mother-in-laws in a patriarchal system and I just find it unacceptable.
@devildog1982z He did not lose a child because he listened to bad medical advice. He lost a child because he CHOSE to value title and prestige over competence and experience and received bad medical advice as a result.
I can understand why Dowager did that, and I believe in the end she was right. It's not for the sake of her son, it's for both of them. Can't you see that Cora is driving herself mad not only with grief but with sudden emptiness where her tight bond with Robert used to be? Violet's right, after all, he blames himself well enough as any parent would. It's coping with grief together that may help them.
@@natalialenchuk1759 I agree! One of those instances in life where the most compassionate, pragmatic action is a white lie
Annoys me to no end how the Dowager made it so Robert got off lightly. He deserved nothing but turmoil and digs from Cora forevermore.
@devildog1982z His arrogance and blind faith in a class system led him to take advice from a doctor just because he was of a higher social standing. It was above him to trust the village doctor. His idiocy cost his daughter her life. Cora was right to blame him. Sybil would not have died if he'd been less bone idle.
His daughter died... I would hardly call that 'got off light'
@@JoeCarswell actually we don’t know if she would of survived because c sections were very dangerous back then
It's honestly sir Phillip's fault much more than Robert's. His arrogance and stubbornness to be right prevented him from seeing Dr. Clark son's reasoning.
I'm sorry but I think your totally wrong. Robert chose a doctor who specialises in childbirth over a regular gp who has been known to make several mistakes like when he misdiagnosed Matthew. So who would you choose in that situation? And secondly, Robert made a mistake, but your acting like he did something evil and deserves to be punished for trying to save his daughters life. He made a MISTAKE, that hardly deserves a punishment. Now tell me I'm wrong.
Its heartbreaking seeing Cora in so much pain. I know what it's like to go through tradegy of someone close.
Spinoff series about 'Sir' Philip, ending in his arrest for many cases of malpractice, resulting in lots of deaths?
Alexander Jones Losing the daughter of an Earl as a patient would have been a black spot on his résumé
@@kawaiimatilda but he didn't lose her. They took another doctor's opinion.
@@kcbh24 Dr Clarkson didn't lose Sybil, Sir Philip did, he's the one kawaiimatilda mentions.
I've always hated that Dr.Clarkson had to lie and they had to deceive Cora to swallow her rightful rage.. Poor Cora and poor Dr.Clarkson.
Same here. Like what would YOU do in his shoes? It's a matter of... professional pride or whatever
Same. But I guess that this was a speed up thing wanted by Violet ! Cora deserved to grieve and be mad longer and I think that's what all the fans wanted but not what we got :/
Here are my two bits on this: Obviously Robert was wrong to trust a highly-fashionable and knighted doctor. But let’s not forget his upbringing: He was brought up to only trust the best of the best. And like he said, Dr. Clarkson had messed up as of late. Robert wanted to be absolutely sure that his first grandchild would be brought safely into the world. No one in those days could have foreseen eclampsia, nor could the family have predicted that the two doctors would clash.
In those days, too many women died from childbirth, as the Dowager says. I really think a cesarean would have yielded the same results. In my eyes, it’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. Both of Sybil’s parents are suffering. Her whole family is, and that’s why it’s so important that Robert and Cora face this together. It’s not a neat, happy ending, but it’s the right one, I think
Oh, yes. Deceit is always healing. Everyone must lie about everything. It's the only path to happiness.
If I remember correctly, Sybil was only at the stage of confusion when the doctor recognized it. The doctor himself said, when the seizures start is when it is not reversible. I think her death could of totally been avoided if Robert would of listened to the family doctor.
And the part that annoys me is when does the father and only the father make the final voice in health of a child? She was married and Branson should of made it, not Robert. Sybil was married and that choice falls on the husband.
Also I am not so sure about how he was raised. His mother seems to be with a decent head on her shoulders but back then the boys followed their father's and women followed their mother's. If his father was the same way then I can believe it but his mother was not the norm.
Robert and Cora embrace. (Dowager turns away and grips the mantelpiece).
God it's all too heartbreaking isn't it. The magnificence of good acting and writing!
Well, what a woman Cora is. Also, the way she and Robert argue is #goals. Love it.
Sybil was a darling in this series.
And I felt miserable with her demise.
The whole story is beautiful, but sybil was the was the most awesome and enchanting character.
I love how the dowager asked about Tom
I don't think I realized until just now watching this, that the end scene, so brilliantly played by all, also had Robert weeping with Cora. I know this loss. The performance was very, very real and leaves you feeling raw, like you just went thru it all over again.
The Dowager Countess is stunning here.
Not to take credit from the rest of the cast but Maggie smith is the heart of Downton Abbey. Without her the show or the movies would not be the same.
9:08 all I could think was, "Are you KIDDING me? You're still thinking about Tapsell at a time like this?!" When I watched this with my friend, she literally said out loud, "Seriously Robert? What the hell?"
Thank you ❤😊
I genuinely think Dr Clarkson here felt he had over estimated Sybils chances of recovery even with the C section . He seems to be in grief himself .
Hence Lady Grantham being distressed herself . She knew he wasnt twisting the truth
I broke into tears seeing the last moment.
I feel the doctor didn't lie . Hê mentioned the smallest hint of a chance of Sybil's survival but there was a greater certainty of her dying. The doctor showed wisdom and empathy knowing it wouldnt serve any One any purpose dwelling on the 'what ifs'
Well technically he didn't lie indeed. Maybe he over-sensationalized the facts but yeah the chances of such operations are alone uncertain. Another thing is the complications after the operation that plenty of people succumbed to
these both were my favorite characters. I watched and rewatched their scenes.
Elizabeth McGovern is often undervalued, when she plays against the likes of Smith, Wilton, Boneville… The bedroom scene was superbly done. Not hysterical, not understated, just right. She was perfect for the role, and is an overall wonderful wonderful actress.
When the Dowager says “where’s Tom?”, that really shows how floored she is by the tragedy. Not “where’s Branson?” or “Mr. Branson”, but “Tom”.
Honestly it’s so tragic how the Crawleys still refuse to see Tom as a human being when he is happily married to Sybil and becomes the father of her child, and they only start warming up to him because of Sybil’s death.
Is anyone else as excited as I am to see this next week?🥰
Kathy Mackler
Sure am 😄
It's already out where I live. It's really good
Stephanie Jane ...I see that it’s two hours so I am planning on my own girls afternoon out next week!😍
@@kathymackler3367 To me it didnt seem like two hours but then my mum said she found it slow it some parts. I didnt find it slow. Just the right movie for a girls afternoon i think.
It’s totally Robert’s fault that Sybil died
Not really
Its not his fault... Its not anyone's fault.. but Robert was hardly wrong to go for what he beleived was the best medical opinion.. Clarkson wasn't a brilliant doctor... he had made mistakes before...
And how did he manage to give his daughter eclampsia ?
She suffered from something that kills women in birth, that's just fate.
And I might remind you that Robert that not the only one who could have made a decision. Tom could too.
Nobody knew what to do and c-section was not as safe as now at their time. It's a hard decision to make when panick starts to rise.
Robert was a complete snob but he didn't kill Sybil.
15%. It was stupid Tapsell that really killed Sybil.
I'm sorry but I think your totally wrong, Robert chose a doctor who specialises in childbirth over a regular gp who has been known to make several mistakes like when he misdiagnosed Matthew. So who would you choose in that situation? And secondly, Robert made a mistake, but your acting like he did something evil and deserves to be punished for trying to save his daughters life. He made a MISTAKE, that hardly deserves a punishment. Now tell me I'm wrong
I'm crying here
Myself also. You just wanted to wrap your arms around the two of them and comfort them.
this whole thing is so painful for me to watch.. when I saw Matthew and then Cora in such unspeakable excrutiating pain I wept like a child for whole day.. I couldn´t even sleep that night.. The story as well as the actors are incredibly convingcing.. and somehow it relieved me of some pain of my own that I felt due to few personal setbacks.. I´ve seen so many movies and serials but Downton Abbey had so far the biggest impact on me..
It is not always about being right. Sometimes it is about letting go of ego so that someone can heal.
This sceen broke my heart
What kills me in this scene is the Dowager knows what Dr. Clarkson is going to say because she most likely did the research and coached him. 😂
I don't think she did
@@hannahdyson7129 if you watch you can see her lips slightly moving when he’s talking with Cora and Robert. IMO indicating she wrote up what he would say. Again, it’s what I saw. ☺️
I felt bad for Robert In these scenes. He obviously is grieving the loss of his daughter on top of the guilt of being partial to blame.
2:22 is a very good part that summarizes the cultural differences between an older culture like England and a newer one like America in terms of deciding who should be listened to.
Amo essa série. Aqui no Brasil vi em 2019.
This is awful. Cora is simply crucified in this scene. he's right and for the sake of marriage she absorbed all that pain.
Yes poor Cora crying out as the pain of losing her baby Sybil is crushing her and at the same time the last bit of hope is taken from her when Dr. Clarkson says she would have died anyway.
Whenever I would watch the final scene from 3.05, I would always put on Padme's Funeral theme. I know that Sybil isn't from Star Wars, but I would always play the Funeral Theme fits the mood.
You know what? Seeing the Dowager sad made me feel even more sad and feel like tearing up~
god i miss this show
I was appalled at Tom, the responsible rightful party, being completely overlooked as tho he had no rites by Robert and Tapsell.
Yeah Robert cut Tom off when he tried to make a decision. If word gets around that supercilious poop-a-doop's rep will go
That last scene breaks my heart
I know some people don't, but I do sympathise with Robert here. He was given bad advice by a 'doctor'-a so-called professional who should have known better and at least listened to Dr Clarkson, who'd known Sybil all her life. Not being a doctor himself, he thought Philip Tapsall knew what he was talking about.
Wow. I didn't know Robert was so loathed. I kind of liked the guy, myself.
Me too. Tom is my most favorite character, but I love them all, except for Edna and Miss Bunting. I even liked O´Brien a bit
WHY AM I DOING THIS TO MYSELF? WHY?
As a doctor that had to be difficult lying to them.
Ok I totally am agreeing with everyone's comments here of it definitely falling onto Robert. But I also believe that what Old Lady Grapham did was for the good of her family, and even if it was only a half truth that it was built on we have to accept that in big families like that there times where it is better for a couple to be on the same side then for ever against each other. I am most certainly not condemning Robert for his pettiness and saying that Cora should've out right forgiven him but at the same time I think it turned out better that they end up on good terms in the end, for the good of the family. (BECAUSE BACK THEN FAMILY WAS BASICALLY ALL YOU HAD KEEPING YOU GOING IN HIGH SOCIETY!)
My my...what a scene
In the very last scene, I think that what was saddest of all was the realisation that the Dowager Countess had no one to hold her and no shoulder of her own to cry upon. As Lady Sybil's grandmother, she too was grieving but had temporarily put her own grief to one side to help sort out Robert and Cora's troubles. Once she had seen that problem seemingly resolved, I'm of the opinion that it is at that moment that she is fully struck with her own grief. I think that this is the only time we see the Dowager vulnerable and lonely.
To be fair to Robert, he had trouble trusting Clarkson after Matthew. Also, Clarkson did fight Isobel when she wanted to save that farmer all the way back in season 1. Clarkson has made mistakes before and Robert was weary. Robert thought he was consulting a specialist. The two doctors put the family in a terrible position so I don't blame Violet for asking Clarkson to relieve some of their pain. Sybil wouldn't want her parents to be estranged. Violet was right. Childbirth was risky and claimed many lives, Sybil still might have died regardless of any medical intervention.
We also take for granted how advanced our medical procedures are now a days. Back then they didn't even have penicillin, so she could have died of infection. As Clarkson said, it would have been a bloody, terrifying experience that likely would have killed her anyways. Poor Sybil was probably doomed from the start. That much Clarkson admits to his credit.
Still . Other doctor was completely wrong. About everything
@@marionarda2790 Robert chose a doctor who specialises in childbirth over a regular gp who has been known to make several mistakes like when he misdiagnosed Matthew. So who would you choose in that situation? And secondly, Robert made a mistake, but your acting like he did something evil and deserves to be punished for trying to save his daughters life. He made a MISTAKE, that hardly deserves a punishment
Everyone is quite keen here to skin robert, yet the fact they overlook in order to be on the high horse to blame robert, is that Sir Phillip, as suggested in the series, main speciality was deliverances and so was the specialist in the accident. Therefore taking out all sentimentality that favours Clarkson, believing Sir Phillip was the saver bet. Yes robert was a snob, but even though it is written looking as if only snobbery was his motivation, he really made the more evidence based choice, whereas the others merely go for Clarksons judgement since he is a familiar person. It really was just a bet, only the bet the others would take in hindsight would have been right and sounds so much more comforting. Yet in reality the better choice upfront was Phillip
Robert nearly loses Downton: cries
Robert loses Cora’s money: cries
Robert loses his daughter: doesn’t cry
Am I the only one who found this weird? He even cried when Cora had a miscarriage (understandably), but he never expresses any real sadness over Sybil.
His pride (or maybe his shame for making the wrong decision) was too great and overshadowed his sadness.
@@anikafemiladensing884 Or, more likely, given that Robert says 'It can't be' several times, he is so grieved that he is denying what he is seeing. Grief has different ways of showing itself. When my uncle was killed in a car accident at the age of 18, the story goes that my grandmother outright howled with grief, while my grandfather showed no emotion. Now, anybody who knows him is well aware that he was just as devastated. He was just so deeply rattled that he couldn't emote.
Let's not take away Robert's right to grieve in his own way because he's not crying for everyone to see, shall we?
He cried of shame, unsuccess and humiliation, when he lost the fortune. But losing Sybil was too painful and too shocking. It was impossible for him to find a solace in good cry, it was too little to ease the great pain
Violet was wrong here.