Man I love listening to people who have forgotten more than I will ever learn.....You are a *ucking genious Keep on learning and sharing it makes us all better Thanks Man
Through all the learning I've done on line arrays, this aspect is one I've never come accross before or even thought about! Thanks for the great video and explaination!
Yeah, when I walk a venue with raked seating, it is easy to walk smoothly from one side to the other, but when I go up or down in equal steps, my ear/brain has a rest while moving from step to step. At a concert, once seated, our ears are pretty much vertically stable, but we move our heads horizontally - but I never really thought about that. You are amazing! Ha - once in a venue I sat down with my young adult daughters, and then did my usual visual check of the rigging, speakers etc. I looked back at the girls any they were laughing and then did an imitation of Dad scoping the venue. My wife never minds when I go to have a check of the mix position at interval.
For me, the biggest factor is that in a horizontal plane, all sources arrive almost at the same time in a line array. But in a horizontal array, all sources arrive at different times in a horizontal plane.
not exactly true, the time delays and dispersions are still there (mostly noticed in a significant loss in fidelity in high and mid frequencies) you just dont hear the phase shift as much horizontally due to your ears placement. physically the sound is the same.
If you've got me at an event doing jumping jacks, subtle differences in the vertical dispersion are going to be the least of my concerns. I think it's a scientific fact that high frequencies drop off substantially when drowned out by the sound of your own beating heart. Great demonstration, Dave. I really appreciate you taking the time to make these productions. The core concepts are useful to people at all levels, not just the pro-tour level.
Dave, thanks so much, this is a beautiful explanation of the concepts involved! Great job. On a side note, maybe wear a lapel mic or something when doing videos like this. I had to keep doing extreme toggling of my volume between the noise and the spoken bits. You have some very important things to say here, and they are easy to miss with your voice riding so far below the noise in dB's. Otherwise, this is some serious wisdom you are sharing here. Much appreciation for this and your other videos. I have learned so much over the years from you! Thanks for being able to explain some involved concepts in such a straightforward manner. Looking forward to more.
Brilliant! I've been saying the same thing to people, you can take all the measurements you want and get lots of nice data, but if it sounds bad to your ear, is bad lol.
Has to be the simplest, clearest well best explained vertical line array theory i've watched/read . Many thanks for that beautifull short informative tube. :)
Hi Dave. Great work! I’d just like to add a point (pun intended) about listening to multiple overlapping point source speakers with 2 human ears vs a single Omni measurement microphone as you demonstrated and that is there is another HUMAN factor - the ability for our brains to help minimise the phasing we perceive. If you listen to more than one overlapping PS speaker and then walk horizontally through the overlap (phase issue) areas, you can hear the phasing - but its nowhere near as bad a a single microphone “hears” it. If anyone wants to test this then just block one ear and turn your unblocked ear to the speaker system and again walk horizontally through the overlap. You will then hear it more like a microphone does. If you stay stationary in the poor overlap area and listen with both ears you may be surprised at how much the brain compensates for differing high frequency time arrival - assuming no wind is present! This human psychoacoustic effect is just like an optical illusion is to our eyes. What we perceive can be very different from what is actual and its a good reason to not rely on test measurements alone but to actually use what we are gifted with. Looking forward to your next video Dave!
I agree and there are significant issues with the way that sound is measured with a single mic. One issue is it shows that stereo setups that people love and embrace are worse, measurement wise than mono setups which are less enjoyable to listen to. Ideally the measurements we use for an application would align with what we desire to hear in that application. And thank you!
Dave you are a legend. I've been to many of the shows you managed the sound for; and they always have the best sound. You should be in a hall of fame somewhere.
So much of what we experience as sound is due to our physiology and evolution as a species. What frequencies we are most sensitive to, how we perceive sound versus what sound is actually there, etc. It always kills me how little of any room, we actually hear stereo in. We know that Sound from that other speaker is reaching our ears, but our brain has turned off that second speaker, and we are only hearing the speaker we are closest to. Designing sound systems that best correlate to the ways in which our brains perceive sound, is just as crucial as designing systems that account for our physical attributes. Thanks much for doing this. These little reminders are so helpful in our daily endeavors to create the best sound experiences..
I have issues with the audibility of the commentary, but the principles presented seem pretty solid.This demonstrates WHY my ears prefer coax studio monitors and line array PA systems. Kudos.
Nothing new to me, but still interesting to see it illustrated so expertly on a small scale. Well done, Dave. And thanks a bunch for taking the time and trouble to make these videos.
Exactly! that's why no spec sheet, no review, no video, nor seller, will ever be able to replace true listening of the actual device with your actual song.
My gig tonight was at a venue we ALWAYS have sound problems in. Just absolutely trash. But tonight one of my qsc’s died and we only had one speaker. It was by far the BEST we have ever sounded there. Sometimes the fix is so simple.
This is great - so are we saying this type of set up is better than a single source set up? I’m a mobile DJ with a simple sub and top set up - but been eyeing the mobile line arrays for a while… great video and I’m now a follower! Cheers 🍻
Welcome! On smaller scales, point source is probably better if you are able to cover the area with one or two speakers per side. If you need to shoot sound far or need a lot of speakers to work together to increase volume levels, line arrays are a good way to make the interactions between speakers less of an audible issue
Cool! It's also fortunate that the human factor with line arrays align with the practical issues with respect to line array orientation. It would be much more difficult to fly a line array in the horizontal plane.
And then of course you can add small delays from element to element across a vertical array to control dispersion front to back in a venue which is nice. Phased array steering isn't just for radar anymore. The improvement in live sound over the last decade thanks to engineering has been quite impressive. I'll try not to think about the complete absence of concerts these days... darn too late.
It finally makes sense why the MTL1X was so awesome and why they coupled so easily. Also makes sense why my old evm cabinets get "muddy" when laid on their side.
The vertical domain can be perfectly flat (no comb filtering), and even attenuated to an amount you want off-axis. Have a look at Horbach Keele filters and the design guide based around them. Really interesting stuff, I'm actually in the process of designing one that's -14dB vertically at 78° off axis. Tons of fun! Thanks for the video, it's a great demonstration on the effects of multiple driver comb filtering. Anytime I need to explain it to someone, I am sending them right here!
Super cool Elliott! We can see much of the summation and coverage solutions and issues that we encounter with the main PA when designing sub arrays with prediction software
Excellent stuff, Dave, as usual. I have a huge ball-bearing lazy-susan that I use for speaker testing so I don't have to move the mic. Doesn't work well for vertical movement, but it's great for left to right!
Very interesting demo Dave, thanks for taking the time to set it up and film it. If you had the test mic further back the narrower HF beams would have converged more and made the tonal change with movement less probably.
A rather unique type of line array you may want to check out or maybe even build is the Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT) Line Array by Don Keele. I attended a demo of his speaker design a few years ago at the Detroit Chapter of the Audio Engineering Society. What makes his design unique is the frequency spectrum is flat across the full range in all directions. The other thing I experienced first hand and measured myself is the dB output is the same level from 6 inches to 80 feet. His design featured a series of 2"-3" full-range speakers (mids to highs) in an arc. He had two of these speakers both left and right with subwoofers on a crossover. He 'feathers' the output of the speakers with resistors so the middle speakers put out full output, but has the speakers go up and down, they are resisted in 3dB steps. So the top and bottom speakers in the array put out less than the middle ones. From a practical standpoint, the sound fills a medium to large size room with no hot spots or harsh frequency nodes. However, the quality of the speakers used in the array is crucial to sound quality. I believe the design does take some tunning with EQ and crossovers for the subs to get a proper balance. As with 2"-3" speakers the mids/highs can get out of hand if not tuned right. His design I believe is best on hard-surfaced floor or upside down from a hard ceiling as I recall it used the floor as a ground plane. www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php There was a company selling a DIY parts kit, but no longer I think. Based on what I heard and how it fills a room so consistently both in frequency and dB SPL, I think the design has applications for mid-sized rooms or even large homes.
Interesting. There are strong arguments for and against volume shading in line arrays. I am not sure volume shading, especially hardwired volume shading is an optimum solution.
Hey thanks. So glad the youtube- lords decided I should see this. Have only seen your older content., which has always been exemplary. Thanks for posting. I have great admiration for what you’ve done and how you’ve managed your career. Perhaps everyone starting out in pro pa, at least in our generation, has similar early experience - from cabinet building to recones and service work to rental inventory and live work. I had s midlife career change but am still very interested the technology. Thanks for you content and your products.
You could test physical delay by moving those boxes between them on a higher level, This will improve even better the vertical coverage and make those issues less noticeable.
Ah! So Bose got it wrong - I should mount my 802s vertically! Brilliant demo, there are so many scientific arguments for pros & cons of different arrangements, but most miss the point that it is humans listening to the end product. With multiple monitor wedges focused on one performer the phase issues must be horrible? Thanks Dave keep the videos coming.
You may choose stacked or more than two meters apart for 802’s. But always with the controller. Four stacked 802’s are a markedly different animal to singles. But do check that the constant directivity circuits are working. Alas, I opened mine up after 10 years in storage to find missing caps and perished damping foam (drivers all good)
Not only are our ears on the side of our head, arranged horizontally, but we don't *fly*, so we arrange ourselves on horizontal planes and move on horizontal planes.
I think the trick is with the those small mid bass drivers is to not use them above say 1.2Khz, If u check the response u will see its the top end that is adding and cancelling on the vertical, comb filter effect, with the low end the wave length is so long, the speakers sum as one. For the treble conventional 4"plate dome tweeters are useless as they are too far apart, long slot ribbons may work provided u can get the drivers within 1/2 an inch of each other almost impossible need specially made speakers. Cost a fortune too, the tweeters need to be as long as the vertical listening area so its huge so its like 5 feet or more long line of tweeter, almost continuous slot. The only other option is to give up and use a line source of mid bass drivers that only does low freq low and mid bass below 1Khz depend on size and spacing , and just 1 powerful tweeter at ear height. This is very effective, so u still get the bass and power and low freq and a point source for the treble.
I love your videos, I'm a guy who used to do Peggy lee and jack jones and.... back in the 80's and now design entertainment stuff out of LA and vegas... I'm designing an install system small cat club like space that has a pushed out stage and a 15' ceiling where there is no way (or need) for a line array to work as it would be behind the front of the stage (PAG NAG etc?) so I have a hung - splayed horizontal array just like you were doing in the video on a slight curve across the front with steep and medium narrow shots into the 30' long pit, with adjustable mounts, and dsp on each and every biamped speaker while there will be phasing its a mosh pit, dance floor or seated jazz club. is my instinct on this right and with enough of the control I just described probably the right way thanks again for sharing your experience.
I think with flown J Arrays, the vertical interference comes into play not just going up and down but from the front and the back of the venue. The top speakers are typically pointed at the back, all the way down the line until the bottom ones are pointed at the front row, so you'll hear the transition from box to box more then. If you are talking about a smaller venue, with a flat floor area and speakers on either side of the stage, some places might choose to use a few of the vertically stacked boxes. You will pretty much be the same listening difference from the boxes in one stack, in both the front and back. Also the further you are from the stack, the more the speakers will meld into a single source. On another note I am particularly interested in the Danley single source horn boxes out at the moment, including a way to combine multiple compression drivers in phase at all angles of listening.
Really great video! I think the human factor is left out by the measurement/theory guys. That’s why there is so much debate about measurements vs. how things actually sound in the “audiophile” world.
Interesting thought on the human aspect of perception from two different designs. I have only a fraction of your experience but have an opinion on this. In my experience listeners in the listening envorinment aren't moving around the horizontal plain enough to hear a difference. Simply turning ones head does not change the location of the head in the horizontal plain. You have to move around the floor of the listening area a fairly large amount to move in and out of the focal point of each speaker. This could be noticeable to dancers moving around a large floor but not likely to ever be encountered by most stationary or dance in place listeners. There are many other design challenges like room acoustics, shape and cost that will play higher in the decision making process for speaker choice between line array and point source. That said really enjoy hear and learning from your knowledge sharing. Thank you Dave.
Very cool, I actually recommend you test that. Our ears are extremely sensitive to tiny shifts in time in the horizontal plane. Here is a video that may shed more light on how sensitive our (your) ears may be. Turing your head moves one ear closer and one ear father from the source. If both ears are hearing the same source, we tend not to notice anything. But with a horizontal line array, each ear is hearing a different source or at least a differing version of a combination of sources. This tends to be quite audible. So audible, that no reputable manufacturer builds a horizontal line array. And thank you for commenting and very much appreciate!!!! ruclips.net/video/sOSmtye9gNw/видео.html
@@DaveRat So honored by your taking the time to respond to my comment, thank you. I actually just watched that video a few minutes before I got your reply. Awesome demonstration. Made me think of how they induce the surround sound effect from just two speakers. I understand what you are saying in both videos. The fact that we can here difference from a single driver even if you just turn your head in place shows how sensitive our ears are in the horizontal plain. I have two systems I run in two different rooms at the facility I work. One long and narrow with a center cluster. One wide with a stereo pair of line arrays. The sound change in the wide room from line arrays is very noticeable. The change heard from the cluster in the long narrow room is minimal in comparison. P.S. had to laugh at the little mixer your using in these videos. I had to retire one of those last month. Lost one main out and got very hot, fire hazard hot.
@@dlcarburetor super cool and great to meet ya. Oh, and a bit of a correction or at least a refinement on horizontal lines arrays. They do exist in the form of Soundbars which are gaining some popularity as tv speakers. These speakers actually use our horizontal perception to simulate width using time offsets with small speakers very close together. I personally find these hard to listen to and there seems to be a direct relationship between increasing the emulated sound field width and being less intelligable
So interesting, because I always assumed the splay angles of line arrays were calculated to hit precise vertical and horizontal dispersion angles. I never thought that the angles of the speakers could also be calculated to minimize phase issues..... With this concept in mind, to me it almost seems like 4 or 5 really big boxes stacked with calculated splay angles would be more effective than 16 hung line array speakers.
Line arrays at maximum splay should become or approach being splay arrays with minimal overlap in the HF between boxes. At maximum splay, line arrays tend to sound the best but lose the ability reduce volume drop with distance. As the angles are reduced, the overlap is increased and volume drop with distance can be improved but at the cost of some sound quality. Point source arrays suffer greatly if overlap is introduced and try and deal with the volume drop with distance by having really oud boxes shoot far away and quieter boxes shoot close. Both designs have their assets and issues.
Great video! Loved the explanations and illustrations. Would love to hear your thoughts on smaller setups and this concept - i.e. Fishman SA330x, Bose L1, JBL eon one vs standard pole mounted 2 speaker PA systems.
I like his videos very much and learn a lot. If you want to hear the other side of the coin look at kv2audio. I use the ES series. All of their stuff is point source. It’s all very interesting.
What are your thoughts on the new line array boxes with the LF drivers on the side? Examples of these products I can think of include L-acoustics L2 or D&B SL. Essentially, the drivers are positioned roughly a quarter wave behind the front drivers, and the drivers in front are delayed a little bit. So basically the sound is phased correctly in the front, but completely out of phase in the back. It’s similar to a cardioid sub, but in line array form. I think it’s an interesting concept, and I honestly find it cool. I’ve been in behind few stages with D&B KSL rigs, and it seems impossible how quiet it really is back there.
All good, implementing endfire or cardioid type coverage to reduce sound from going places that we don't want it to go is helpful and will improve the overall audio. Sound energy going in the wrong directions really messes up the overall quality
@@DaveRat I agree. They are certainly great for the performers on stage, who could sometimes get muddy sound from the FOH equipment. Especially problematic for artists who tour with wedges and not in-ear monitors. I guess mic feedback could cause some issues too with too much FOH leakage on stage. I also noticed the speakers are getting smaller, because the drivers on the side make similar cone area in a smaller package. The D&B KSL is marketed as a replacement for J, but it’s a smaller speaker. It seems like a similar story with L-acoustics L2 being so compact in overall size for the total hangs, even though the boxes themselves are much larger.
Most line array technology is about trying to get the mid and high drivers to act as multiple highly closely spaced directional elements so they don't interact as much, whether they use pathlength equalising waveguides on the tweeters or some sort of paraline lens depends on the manufacturer. It isn't usually a problem for subwoofer drivers, although controlling the directionality of the bass so it only goes forwards is another problem altogether. I believe EAW Anya probably uses multiple closely spaced drivers and EVERYTHING is controlled by customizable time delays, though they have a huge amount of money invested in that system
GREAT VIDEO I HAVE A QUESTION? Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?
Not really, Monterey boxes and point source boxes strive to be flat and use high power components with low distortion. The main difference between the two is line arrays put the speakers very close together in the vertical dimension and also have specialized horns or high frequency wave guides that allow them to some together vertically very well. Other than that you could change out the horn on a line array box and use it as a point source and it would work just fine
I have had the honor of not only visiting funktion one engineering lab, I've also had the honor of Tony Andres picking me up at the airport and riding with him in a car is even more fun than the thrill of a giant PA. I too like function one, just like I like band saw, and I like line arrays like I like a table saw, and small self powered boxes like I like screwdrivers and hammers
@@DaveRatall the line array systems that i got to hear sounds great with live music until you start playing music with fast transients like trance music then i can clearly hear phasing issues almost like someone put a delay on the high frequencies.. the funktion one system's sounds to me much more like a studio monitors when you sit in the sweet spot.. obviously it's not 100% perfect i guess it depends on you're preferences and the music played through the system, that's just my experience I'm not a professional.. although i did work with those systems here and there..
A properly set up high quality line array by d&b, L-Acoustics or other high end systems, should not exhibit the "zipper" effect that you describe which would be due to poor vertical summing of the line array elements. A poorly set up or designed point source systems can also have numerous issues. I personally find that mixing live bands on horn loaded systems, requires a lot more work and has a less stable mix than mixing on systems designed around bass reflex enclosures, that said, I find the for electronic music, horn loaded systems can offer a more exciting sound. But covering large spaces with horn loaded non line array systems is very tough. It's all about finding the right tool for the job
The main reason to go vertical is because the sound will travel further, thus reaching more into the far audience. It would be great if you could explain this phenomenon. I haven't found anyone that has explained that yet.
Hmmm, surprisingly vertical does go farther as sound does not know gravity. Distance is gained or increased by either increasing the volume of the source or increasing the number of sources at a given volume that are equidistant from a point that is father away. Line arrays, horizontal like subs, or vertical like many sound systems are designed around or a circular array or a cluster of speakers, all can throw the same distance. The shape of the array just controls the on and off axis cancellations. That said, vertical line arrays can allow minimizing sound hitting the ground and ceiling which could increase the throw. Very cool. I will ponder doing an updated version of this with more info.
As long as the listener stays perfectly still and never moves, that could work. As soon as a listener moves even slightly or turns their head, a new phase correcting would be needed for the new location of the listener or listeners ears.
McIntosh XRT 20 Line Array owner here. Nothing comes close for me. Also, ironic that such a brilliant audio guy didn't think to use a lapel mic, or something that would make the giant leaps in volume a bit more bearable. Still, no disrespect meant.
All good, yeah, I usually do these videos very last minute, no rehearse, no script, and usually a single take, straight through full improv. So, I do run into audio or other issues that I only find out about afterwards. I then decide to scrap or roll with it. When I scrap them, I rarely re do the subject and just move on to a new idea next time. It's kind of a fun way to share info and I must admit, I am surprised and humbled by how popular some of the videos have become. Will work on tuning them up
Man I love listening to people who have forgotten more than I will ever learn.....You are a *ucking genious Keep on learning and sharing it makes us all better Thanks Man
Thank you Kevin!
Love it. Not enough sound engineers talking about the human factor!
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Through all the learning I've done on line arrays, this aspect is one I've never come accross before or even thought about! Thanks for the great video and explaination!
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As a relatively new mixing engineer I feel like I hit a gold mine with your channel. Thanks for these Dave!
you might want to check out the new headphone reviewed at HeadPhone Guru available from Underwood HiFi
What a brilliant explanation! Especially why it's so effective from a human listening perspective.
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Yeah, when I walk a venue with raked seating, it is easy to walk smoothly from one side to the other, but when I go up or down in equal steps, my ear/brain has a rest while moving from step to step. At a concert, once seated, our ears are pretty much vertically stable, but we move our heads horizontally - but I never really thought about that. You are amazing! Ha - once in a venue I sat down with my young adult daughters, and then did my usual visual check of the rigging, speakers etc. I looked back at the girls any they were laughing and then did an imitation of Dad scoping the venue. My wife never minds when I go to have a check of the mix position at interval.
Smiling
This is the missing link to all that I've learned about point vs line source. Human hearing. Thanks for this.
Thank you Gordon!!
This is hands down the best explanation of the actual, practical difference between line/point source arrays I’ve ever seen (and heard)
Awesome!
For me, the biggest factor is that in a horizontal plane, all sources arrive almost at the same time in a line array. But in a horizontal array, all sources arrive at different times in a horizontal plane.
not exactly true, the time delays and dispersions are still there (mostly noticed in a significant loss in fidelity in high and mid frequencies) you just dont hear the phase shift as much horizontally due to your ears placement. physically the sound is the same.
If you've got me at an event doing jumping jacks, subtle differences in the vertical dispersion are going to be the least of my concerns. I think it's a scientific fact that high frequencies drop off substantially when drowned out by the sound of your own beating heart.
Great demonstration, Dave. I really appreciate you taking the time to make these productions. The core concepts are useful to people at all levels, not just the pro-tour level.
Dave, thanks so much, this is a beautiful explanation of the concepts involved! Great job.
On a side note, maybe wear a lapel mic or something when doing videos like this. I had to keep doing extreme toggling of my volume between the noise and the spoken bits. You have some very important things to say here, and they are easy to miss with your voice riding so far below the noise in dB's.
Otherwise, this is some serious wisdom you are sharing here. Much appreciation for this and your other videos. I have learned so much over the years from you! Thanks for being able to explain some involved concepts in such a straightforward manner. Looking forward to more.
Let me know if my newer videos are better with the sound
Brilliant! I've been saying the same thing to people, you can take all the measurements you want and get lots of nice data, but if it sounds bad to your ear, is bad lol.
Has to be the simplest, clearest well best explained vertical line array theory i've watched/read . Many thanks for that beautifull short informative tube. :)
Thank you Jean!
Hi Dave. Great work! I’d just like to add a point (pun intended) about listening to multiple overlapping point source speakers with 2 human ears vs a single Omni measurement microphone as you demonstrated and that is there is another HUMAN factor - the ability for our brains to help minimise the phasing we perceive. If you listen to more than one overlapping PS speaker and then walk horizontally through the overlap (phase issue) areas, you can hear the phasing - but its nowhere near as bad a a single microphone “hears” it. If anyone wants to test this then just block one ear and turn your unblocked ear to the speaker system and again walk horizontally through the overlap. You will then hear it more like a microphone does. If you stay stationary in the poor overlap area and listen with both ears you may be surprised at how much the brain compensates for differing high frequency time arrival - assuming no wind is present! This human psychoacoustic effect is just like an optical illusion is to our eyes. What we perceive can be very different from what is actual and its a good reason to not rely on test measurements alone but to actually use what we are gifted with.
Looking forward to your next video Dave!
I agree and there are significant issues with the way that sound is measured with a single mic. One issue is it shows that stereo setups that people love and embrace are worse, measurement wise than mono setups which are less enjoyable to listen to. Ideally the measurements we use for an application would align with what we desire to hear in that application. And thank you!
Dave you are a legend. I've been to many of the shows you managed the sound for; and they always have the best sound. You should be in a hall of fame somewhere.
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Turn on subtitles. Then you can see what he's saying during the white noise.
Great tip! At some point I'll redo the video with better sound and fix that
So much of what we experience as sound is due to our physiology and evolution as a species. What frequencies we are most sensitive to, how we perceive sound versus what sound is actually there, etc. It always kills me how little of any room, we actually hear stereo in. We know that Sound from that other speaker is reaching our ears, but our brain has turned off that second speaker, and we are only hearing the speaker we are closest to. Designing sound systems that best correlate to the ways in which our brains perceive sound, is just as crucial as designing systems that account for our physical attributes.
Thanks much for doing this. These little reminders are so helpful in our daily endeavors to create the best sound experiences..
Awesome and thank you Bennett!
Thanks Dave, I've been saying for YEARS that it's the Human quotient that's most important....
I have issues with the audibility of the commentary, but the principles presented seem pretty solid.This demonstrates WHY my ears prefer coax studio monitors and line array PA systems. Kudos.
Nothing new to me, but still interesting to see it illustrated so expertly on a small scale. Well done, Dave. And thanks a bunch for taking the time and trouble to make these videos.
Thank you Carl!
Surprisingly deep and simple explanation. Great to see spanish and others lenguajes in the subs, much appreciated the effort, thank you Dave.
Awesome and thank you Iglesia!
A great video. It's been thirty years since my speaker building days and thinking about things like this. Brings back fond memories. Thanks.
Exactly! that's why no spec sheet, no review, no video, nor seller, will ever be able to replace true listening of the actual device with your actual song.
Genius demonstration. So much better than a verbal or text explanation. Much respect ✊
this concept seems so obvious and logical to me, but only now that I have heard it explained properly by Dave Rat, thank you so much sir!
Excellent!
My gig tonight was at a venue we ALWAYS have sound problems in. Just absolutely trash. But tonight one of my qsc’s died and we only had one speaker. It was by far the BEST we have ever sounded there. Sometimes the fix is so simple.
Ha! Good atuff
This is great - so are we saying this type of set up is better than a single source set up? I’m a mobile DJ with a simple sub and top set up - but been eyeing the mobile line arrays for a while… great video and I’m now a follower! Cheers 🍻
Welcome! On smaller scales, point source is probably better if you are able to cover the area with one or two speakers per side. If you need to shoot sound far or need a lot of speakers to work together to increase volume levels, line arrays are a good way to make the interactions between speakers less of an audible issue
Cool! It's also fortunate that the human factor with line arrays align with the practical issues with respect to line array orientation. It would be much more difficult to fly a line array in the horizontal plane.
Yes, line arrays are more compatible with gravity
I'm glad to be here, thank you Dave!
And then of course you can add small delays from element to element across a vertical array to control dispersion front to back in a venue which is nice. Phased array steering isn't just for radar anymore. The improvement in live sound over the last decade thanks to engineering has been quite impressive. I'll try not to think about the complete absence of concerts these days... darn too late.
It finally makes sense why the MTL1X was so awesome and why they coupled so easily. Also makes sense why my old evm cabinets get "muddy" when laid on their side.
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paradigm shift presentation ! #renaissanceman #bravo : learning moment : polarised audio : sunglasses for your ears . . . next level understanding : gracias : hartelijk dank
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I always wondered why they did this. Great explanation.
Dave, thanks! very clear and significant explanation. After this video i am going to search for other videos you have done.
The vertical domain can be perfectly flat (no comb filtering), and even attenuated to an amount you want off-axis. Have a look at Horbach Keele filters and the design guide based around them. Really interesting stuff, I'm actually in the process of designing one that's -14dB vertically at 78° off axis. Tons of fun!
Thanks for the video, it's a great demonstration on the effects of multiple driver comb filtering. Anytime I need to explain it to someone, I am sending them right here!
Super cool Elliott! We can see much of the summation and coverage solutions and issues that we encounter with the main PA when designing sub arrays with prediction software
@@DaveRat Very nice! Those figures were just from mathematical models, I imagine your prediction software uses much of the same models. 👍
Excellent stuff, Dave, as usual. I have a huge ball-bearing lazy-susan that I use for speaker testing so I don't have to move the mic. Doesn't work well for vertical movement, but it's great for left to right!
Thank you so much for the excellent explanation of the human factor in listening and how we react.
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Very interesting demo Dave, thanks for taking the time to set it up and film it. If you had the test mic further back the narrower HF beams would have converged more and made the tonal change with movement less probably.
Yes, I will try and do more on the subject soon and thank you
A rather unique type of line array you may want to check out or maybe even build is the Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT) Line Array by Don Keele. I attended a demo of his speaker design a few years ago at the Detroit Chapter of the Audio Engineering Society. What makes his design unique is the frequency spectrum is flat across the full range in all directions. The other thing I experienced first hand and measured myself is the dB output is the same level from 6 inches to 80 feet. His design featured a series of 2"-3" full-range speakers (mids to highs) in an arc. He had two of these speakers both left and right with subwoofers on a crossover. He 'feathers' the output of the speakers with resistors so the middle speakers put out full output, but has the speakers go up and down, they are resisted in 3dB steps. So the top and bottom speakers in the array put out less than the middle ones. From a practical standpoint, the sound fills a medium to large size room with no hot spots or harsh frequency nodes. However, the quality of the speakers used in the array is crucial to sound quality. I believe the design does take some tunning with EQ and crossovers for the subs to get a proper balance. As with 2"-3" speakers the mids/highs can get out of hand if not tuned right. His design I believe is best on hard-surfaced floor or upside down from a hard ceiling as I recall it used the floor as a ground plane.
www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php
There was a company selling a DIY parts kit, but no longer I think. Based on what I heard and how it fills a room so consistently both in frequency and dB SPL, I think the design has applications for mid-sized rooms or even large homes.
Interesting. There are strong arguments for and against volume shading in line arrays.
I am not sure volume shading, especially hardwired volume shading is an optimum solution.
Dave, you're on the front page of Hacker News. : )
Ha, that's fun, thank you for the heads up and smile
Thanks man! simple demo, made a complex subject easy to understand!
Hey thanks. So glad the youtube- lords decided I should see this. Have only seen your older content., which has always been exemplary. Thanks for posting. I have great admiration for what you’ve done and how you’ve managed your career. Perhaps everyone starting out in pro pa, at least in our generation, has similar early experience - from cabinet building to recones and service work to rental inventory and live work. I had s midlife career change but am still very interested the technology. Thanks for you content and your products.
Awesome and thank you and thank you to the RUclips Lords!
You could test physical delay by moving those boxes between them on a higher level, This will improve even better the vertical coverage and make those issues less noticeable.
Thanks for sharing, Dave!
Those old MDR-CD3000s are cool too!
Shame as this guy actually is one of the few who teaches really well.
Really appreciate this short deep dive!
One of the best demos I’ve seen!
Awesome and thank you!
Ah! So Bose got it wrong - I should mount my 802s vertically! Brilliant demo, there are so many scientific arguments for pros & cons of different arrangements, but most miss the point that it is humans listening to the end product. With multiple monitor wedges focused on one performer the phase issues must be horrible? Thanks Dave keep the videos coming.
Yes you get it
You may choose stacked or more than two meters apart for 802’s. But always with the controller.
Four stacked 802’s are a markedly different animal to singles. But do check that the constant directivity circuits are working. Alas, I opened mine up after 10 years in storage to find missing caps and perished damping foam (drivers all good)
Not only are our ears on the side of our head, arranged horizontally, but we don't *fly*, so we arrange ourselves on horizontal planes and move on horizontal planes.
Agreed
speak for yourself!
😁
I think the trick is with the those small mid bass drivers is to not use them above say 1.2Khz, If u check the response u will see its the top end that is adding and cancelling on the vertical, comb filter effect, with the low end the wave length is so long, the speakers sum as one. For the treble conventional 4"plate dome tweeters are useless as they are too far apart, long slot ribbons may work provided u can get the drivers within 1/2 an inch of each other almost impossible need specially made speakers. Cost a fortune too, the tweeters need to be as long as the vertical listening area so its huge so its like 5 feet or more long line of tweeter, almost continuous slot. The only other option is to give up and use a line source of mid bass drivers that only does low freq low and mid bass below 1Khz depend on size and spacing , and just 1 powerful tweeter at ear height. This is very effective, so u still get the bass and power and low freq and a point source for the treble.
thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff to us dave :)
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Man i love these videos. Rarely u get such an informative lessons
Cool cool thank you!
@@DaveRat wow thanks for response 🤩
I love your videos, I'm a guy who used to do Peggy lee and jack jones and.... back in the 80's and now design entertainment stuff out of LA and vegas... I'm designing an install system small cat club like space that has a pushed out stage and a 15' ceiling where there is no way (or need) for a line array to work as it would be behind the front of the stage (PAG NAG etc?) so I have a hung - splayed horizontal array just like you were doing in the video on a slight curve across the front with steep and medium narrow shots into the 30' long pit, with adjustable mounts, and dsp on each and every biamped speaker while there will be phasing its a mosh pit, dance floor or seated jazz club. is my instinct on this right and with enough of the control I just described probably the right way thanks again for sharing your experience.
you are a great teacher 🙏
Thankyou so much for the brilliant explanation God bless ya
Thank you🤙🤙🤙
Can confirm, was interesting!
Very concise and informative video. Thanks Dave!
I think with flown J Arrays, the vertical interference comes into play not just going up and down but from the front and the back of the venue. The top speakers are typically pointed at the back, all the way down the line until the bottom ones are pointed at the front row, so you'll hear the transition from box to box more then. If you are talking about a smaller venue, with a flat floor area and speakers on either side of the stage, some places might choose to use a few of the vertically stacked boxes. You will pretty much be the same listening difference from the boxes in one stack, in both the front and back. Also the further you are from the stack, the more the speakers will meld into a single source.
On another note I am particularly interested in the Danley single source horn boxes out at the moment, including a way to combine multiple compression drivers in phase at all angles of listening.
Really great video! I think the human factor is left out by the measurement/theory guys. That’s why there is so much debate about measurements vs. how things actually sound in the “audiophile” world.
Agreed
Dave, thanks for you videos. So glad I stumbled upon your channel.
👍
Interesting thought on the human aspect of perception from two different designs. I have only a fraction of your experience but have an opinion on this. In my experience listeners in the listening envorinment aren't moving around the horizontal plain enough to hear a difference. Simply turning ones head does not change the location of the head in the horizontal plain. You have to move around the floor of the listening area a fairly large amount to move in and out of the focal point of each speaker. This could be noticeable to dancers moving around a large floor but not likely to ever be encountered by most stationary or dance in place listeners. There are many other design challenges like room acoustics, shape and cost that will play higher in the decision making process for speaker choice between line array and point source. That said really enjoy hear and learning from your knowledge sharing. Thank you Dave.
Very cool, I actually recommend you test that. Our ears are extremely sensitive to tiny shifts in time in the horizontal plane. Here is a video that may shed more light on how sensitive our (your) ears may be. Turing your head moves one ear closer and one ear father from the source. If both ears are hearing the same source, we tend not to notice anything. But with a horizontal line array, each ear is hearing a different source or at least a differing version of a combination of sources. This tends to be quite audible. So audible, that no reputable manufacturer builds a horizontal line array. And thank you for commenting and very much appreciate!!!!
ruclips.net/video/sOSmtye9gNw/видео.html
@@DaveRat So honored by your taking the time to respond to my comment, thank you. I actually just watched that video a few minutes before I got your reply. Awesome demonstration. Made me think of how they induce the surround sound effect from just two speakers. I understand what you are saying in both videos. The fact that we can here difference from a single driver even if you just turn your head in place shows how sensitive our ears are in the horizontal plain. I have two systems I run in two different rooms at the facility I work. One long and narrow with a center cluster. One wide with a stereo pair of line arrays. The sound change in the wide room from line arrays is very noticeable. The change heard from the cluster in the long narrow room is minimal in comparison.
P.S. had to laugh at the little mixer your using in these videos. I had to retire one of those last month. Lost one main out and got very hot, fire hazard hot.
@@dlcarburetor super cool and great to meet ya. Oh, and a bit of a correction or at least a refinement on horizontal lines arrays.
They do exist in the form of Soundbars which are gaining some popularity as tv speakers. These speakers actually use our horizontal perception to simulate width using time offsets with small speakers very close together.
I personally find these hard to listen to and there seems to be a direct relationship between increasing the emulated sound field width and being less intelligable
Thank you for sharing your insights, Dave!
Thanks for sharing the knowledge Dave!
So interesting, because I always assumed the splay angles of line arrays were calculated to hit precise vertical and horizontal dispersion angles. I never thought that the angles of the speakers could also be calculated to minimize phase issues..... With this concept in mind, to me it almost seems like 4 or 5 really big boxes stacked with calculated splay angles would be more effective than 16 hung line array speakers.
Line arrays at maximum splay should become or approach being splay arrays with minimal overlap in the HF between boxes. At maximum splay, line arrays tend to sound the best but lose the ability reduce volume drop with distance. As the angles are reduced, the overlap is increased and volume drop with distance can be improved but at the cost of some sound quality. Point source arrays suffer greatly if overlap is introduced and try and deal with the volume drop with distance by having really oud boxes shoot far away and quieter boxes shoot close. Both designs have their assets and issues.
Always I learn somthing or some new prospective from your videos keep up the good work LOVE FROM PAKISTAN.
Great video!!! Keep them coming, but more importantly hope you get back to work very soon.
Me too and thank you!
As always- very informative. Always learn something from your vids!
Thank you Gordon
Very interesting, thanks!
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Geometry will not be arrayifried! Awesome video.
Another great experiment Dave.
Thanks for the video, great information as always!
Great video Dave! I enjoy your perspective. So let’s make a splayed line array and test it!! Tri main drivers!🤘
They already exist. The L-acoustics ARC systems are splayed line array systems that can be vertical or horizontal
@@DaveRat I'm thinking more of something like two collinear towers with an arc. I'll cut one in my laser printer and get back to you haha
@@Cletusaz yes please.
Great video! Loved the explanations and illustrations. Would love to hear your thoughts on smaller setups and this concept - i.e. Fishman SA330x, Bose L1, JBL eon one vs standard pole mounted 2 speaker PA systems.
Fascinating and thought provoking as usual.
THANK YOU
I like his videos very much and learn a lot. If you want to hear the other side of the coin look at kv2audio. I use the ES series. All of their stuff is point source. It’s all very interesting.
enlightening, thanks for taking the time!
What are your thoughts on the new line array boxes with the LF drivers on the side? Examples of these products I can think of include L-acoustics L2 or D&B SL. Essentially, the drivers are positioned roughly a quarter wave behind the front drivers, and the drivers in front are delayed a little bit. So basically the sound is phased correctly in the front, but completely out of phase in the back. It’s similar to a cardioid sub, but in line array form. I think it’s an interesting concept, and I honestly find it cool. I’ve been in behind few stages with D&B KSL rigs, and it seems impossible how quiet it really is back there.
All good, implementing endfire or cardioid type coverage to reduce sound from going places that we don't want it to go is helpful and will improve the overall audio.
Sound energy going in the wrong directions really messes up the overall quality
@@DaveRat I agree. They are certainly great for the performers on stage, who could sometimes get muddy sound from the FOH equipment. Especially problematic for artists who tour with wedges and not in-ear monitors. I guess mic feedback could cause some issues too with too much FOH leakage on stage.
I also noticed the speakers are getting smaller, because the drivers on the side make similar cone area in a smaller package. The D&B KSL is marketed as a replacement for J, but it’s a smaller speaker. It seems like a similar story with L-acoustics L2 being so compact in overall size for the total hangs, even though the boxes themselves are much larger.
Yes DB per cubic foot of truck space is definitely improving as driver and amp technology advance
Very nicely presented !
Most line array technology is about trying to get the mid and high drivers to act as multiple highly closely spaced directional elements so they don't interact as much, whether they use pathlength equalising waveguides on the tweeters or some sort of paraline lens depends on the manufacturer. It isn't usually a problem for subwoofer drivers, although controlling the directionality of the bass so it only goes forwards is another problem altogether.
I believe EAW Anya probably uses multiple closely spaced drivers and EVERYTHING is controlled by customizable time delays, though they have a huge amount of money invested in that system
I was a consultant on the Anya system design
Superbly Explained...5stars
Thank you!!
Great and very educative video thank you Dave!
Awesome and thank you
Thanks for your biotechnical insights. Love your lab-approach.
👍
GREAT VIDEO
I HAVE A QUESTION?
Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?
Not really, Monterey boxes and point source boxes strive to be flat and use high power components with low distortion. The main difference between the two is line arrays put the speakers very close together in the vertical dimension and also have specialized horns or high frequency wave guides that allow them to some together vertically very well.
Other than that you could change out the horn on a line array box and use it as a point source and it would work just fine
Great. Good explanations.
Amazing ....Thanks Mr. Rat
Is there a preferred microphone for these kinds of audio tests, or will any with decently flat response do the job?
Even cheap measurement mics do very good job of capturing quite flat sound. Just beware of mic overload if measuring at higher volume levels
that's exactly why i like funktion one systems better than line array
I have had the honor of not only visiting funktion one engineering lab, I've also had the honor of Tony Andres picking me up at the airport and riding with him in a car is even more fun than the thrill of a giant PA.
I too like function one, just like I like band saw, and I like line arrays like I like a table saw, and small self powered boxes like I like screwdrivers and hammers
@@DaveRatall the line array systems that i got to hear sounds great with live music until you start playing music with fast transients like trance music then i can clearly hear phasing issues almost like someone put a delay on the high frequencies.. the funktion one system's sounds to me much more like a studio monitors when you sit in the sweet spot.. obviously it's not 100% perfect i guess it depends on you're preferences and the music played through the system, that's just my experience I'm not a professional.. although i did work with those systems here and there..
A properly set up high quality line array by d&b, L-Acoustics or other high end systems, should not exhibit the "zipper" effect that you describe which would be due to poor vertical summing of the line array elements.
A poorly set up or designed point source systems can also have numerous issues.
I personally find that mixing live bands on horn loaded systems, requires a lot more work and has a less stable mix than mixing on systems designed around bass reflex enclosures, that said, I find the for electronic music, horn loaded systems can offer a more exciting sound.
But covering large spaces with horn loaded non line array systems is very tough.
It's all about finding the right tool for the job
love these little videos Dave good stuff!
Dave, I am not a great fan of tattoos, but I love the hinge structures emerging from the inside of your elbows! Cool.
Phase Array speaker bose 802 good design....🔊 👍
Brilliant video as usual.
The main reason to go vertical is because the sound will travel further, thus reaching more into the far audience. It would be great if you could explain this phenomenon. I haven't found anyone that has explained that yet.
Hmmm, surprisingly vertical does go farther as sound does not know gravity. Distance is gained or increased by either increasing the volume of the source or increasing the number of sources at a given volume that are equidistant from a point that is father away.
Line arrays, horizontal like subs, or vertical like many sound systems are designed around or a circular array or a cluster of speakers, all can throw the same distance. The shape of the array just controls the on and off axis cancellations.
That said, vertical line arrays can allow minimizing sound hitting the ground and ceiling which could increase the throw.
Very cool. I will ponder doing an updated version of this with more info.
Great stuff Dave.
Cool, that does put it into perspective.
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Muy bueno todo dave 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 muchas gracias por este vídeo
excelente!
Try applying phase correction to each driver
As long as the listener stays perfectly still and never moves, that could work.
As soon as a listener moves even slightly or turns their head, a new phase correcting would be needed for the new location of the listener or listeners ears.
@@DaveRat no more Starbucks at the show
This is my point your great at this. Just get your mic levels right then we can hear you.
Great video Dave!
McIntosh XRT 20 Line Array owner here. Nothing comes close for me. Also, ironic that such a brilliant audio guy didn't think to use a lapel mic, or something that would make the giant leaps in volume a bit more bearable. Still, no disrespect meant.
All good, yeah, I usually do these videos very last minute, no rehearse, no script, and usually a single take, straight through full improv. So, I do run into audio or other issues that I only find out about afterwards. I then decide to scrap or roll with it.
When I scrap them, I rarely re do the subject and just move on to a new idea next time.
It's kind of a fun way to share info and I must admit, I am surprised and humbled by how popular some of the videos have become.
Will work on tuning them up