"I Believe Because I'm Human" - Debunking Bad Arguments for God | Matt Dillahunty + Jimmy Snow
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Lazaro calls in to explain why he believes in God. His first reasons are that he is human and animals don't believe in God. The hosts point out that being human does not necessarily lead to belief in God. Lazaro then cites creation and mortality as reasons. When pushed on how exactly creation points to God, Lazaro cannot provide a clear argument. On mortality, he simply states humans cannot live forever on Earth.
The hosts explain these are not good arguments, as they do not provide exclusive reasoning that gets one from the premise to the conclusion of God's existence. Lazaro struggles when challenged to provide good reasoning, instead relying on the Bible. However, he admits he has no way of proving the Bible is divinely inspired.
Towards the end, Lazaro acknowledges most people believe due to fear of death and sunk costs, not good reasoning. The hosts emphasize that wanting to believe something doesn't make it true. Lazaro is unable to come up with exclusive reasoning for his God claim, suggesting his belief stems from non-rational motives.
SUPPORT THE NETWORK
---------------------------------------------------
Patreon: / calltheline
Become a Channel Member:
SUPPORT PRODUCTION
---------------------------------------------------
Paypal: www.paypal.me/...
Cashapp: cash.app/$jimm...
Amazon Wishlist: www.amazon.com...
MORE LIVE SHOWS & CLIPS
---------------------------------------------------
/ @callthelinex
CONTACT US
---------------------------------------------------
contact@qnaline.com
HOSTS
---------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Snow: @JimmySnow
Matt Dillahunty: @SansDeity
Arden Hart: / theardenhart
Katy Montgomerie: @KatyMontgomerie
Forrest Valkai: @RenegadeScienceTeacher
Dr. Ben: @FamilyDrBen
Aron Ra: @AronRa
Shannon Q: @ShannonQ
John Gleason: @godlessengineer
Dave Warnock: iamdyingoutlou...
ADDRESS
---------------------------------------------------
The Line
110 N Interstate 35
Suite 315-1027
Round Rock, TX 78681
United States
SHOWS ON THE LINE
---------------------------------------------------
Sundays: The Sunday Show
Monday: Skeptalk
Tuesday: Dying Out Loud
Wednesday: The Hang Up
Thursday: The Trans Atlantic Call In Show (TACIS)
Look out for “HOSTility” and “Cus I Wanna” any day, any time
#CallTheLine
Matt takes a lot of heat for being impatient, but the second he found an honest inquiry, he became supremely patient and caring
He just wants his interlocutor to answer his questions, and when they do, he engages in conversation.
Exactly, Matt is actually very patient. He just doesnt tolerate people trying to bs him, and he shouldnt
Agree…he honestly tries where I would use hang up. But he saw or heard something in Lazaro and I’m so glad he did.
It's fun to listen to the same terrible arguments get shot down 20 different ways but it's unbelievably frustrating to come up with 20 different ways to shoot it down only to be talked over and not listened to in the first place.
While I understand his frustration, I find his proclivity to yell "shut up" at people off-putting. He is a self-proclaimed "expert" at doing what he does in discussions with people who are barely at a tee ball level of both knowledge of the subject and skill at debate. Not to mention they're talking about believing in invisible sky faeries. There isn't a sound, logical, rational argument that can be made to support that belief.
Wow. Kudos to Lazaro. That kind of honesty is wicked hard! My favorite time to watch is when Matt and Jimmy are able to rephrase the conversation to help the caller work backwards, demonstrating all the smaller steps that the caller has erroneously accepted as presupposed facts. 🎉🎉🎉
,.,
My pastor went out of his way each week to point out that all the other gods were dead, but ours was alive because Bible obviously. It made so much sense to me when I was in the pew, but looking back, I can’t believe I took spiritual advice from the parent that couldn’t help me with my homework from 4th grade on.
I swear, I’m so sick of hearing theists refer to gods as “dead” or “alive.” Unless gods are mortal in your mythology, it’s total nonsense.
I never understood why this god couldn’t just start a new planet, rather than the flood. Snap his fingers, new garden new Adam, and new Eve, but noooo god wants to take 40 days, and use water to drown everything but those on the ark?
What a dumb god!
@@maynardlikethecandy5347 - not dumb, just bored. Like a little kid playing in the dirt with toy soldiers, then making it rain by blasting them with a garden hose.
.
_"He's not the God, he's a very naughty boy"_ 🤣
In short you were scammed. That's what religion is. That is why you have the feeling of being a victim because that is what you are. Your parents may not have done this maliciously. They were duped as well. Just consider yourself fortunate that you are now able to see through it all.
@@johncoops6897 "he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy" is the actual quote.. life of brian.
A lot of this is also why I could never believe.
As a kid when we would drive to church we would pass all the other churches, and I would ask, "why don't we go to that church. It's closer." And I was told they are wrong. When I asked why are they wrong and we are right, my dad told me "faith".
I was so confused because they also have faith, but their faith was wrong. It was then I learned that faith is not reliable.
@trishbeason5074 - this same fact is what does it for me. It seems to be a glaring inconsistency. I try to point it out to religious friends: These other religions are just as certain as you are that their beliefs that are contradictory to yours are true, and like you, can give all of the reasons they were trained to give as to why they are correct. Someone (at least) MUST be wrong. Did you win the lottery and happen to pick the right one? At that time, they usually change scope of their claim to a more deistic god and claim "well that must be pointing to something". Meanwhile they continue "Genuflecting" and doing other specific silly actions that only apply to their particular faith. They have been trained NOT to exercise REASON.
@@Specialeffecks From my experience, Christians sometimes use this non-argument: "Jesus was the only one who resurrected and claimed he was God".
If I was a religious parent, those would be some scary questions.
@@juanausensi499. Coming back from death/being resurrected is not a Jesus-only special. Plenty of gods die. Some die and resurrect in a yearly cycle. Dionysus was lured away, torn to pieces, boiled and mostly eaten by the Titans but was resurrected after the Titans were slain. Inanna/Ishtar descended into the underworld and was killed there, but came back - millennia before Jesus.
@@advorak8529 I know that, but Christians ignore that.
Props to Lazaro. He got shouted into submission and was still open to learn!
I'm human? I was born into the JW cult. I was born atheist. They could not, no matter how hard they tried, get me to believe in gods. I stayed in my organic form. Refused baptism at 12. So I am not human because nobody was able to turn a switch in my mind as a child? We are not born believing in gods so it is not a natural human condition.
I agree that all humans are born Athiest. I find it absolutely abhorrent that religions exist only to convert the innocents to their faith.
My dad was JW but didnt raise me in it, but I was born atheist; like you say. Very nice story
JWs intrigue me immensely, I love watching their apostates expose the CULTure. Glad you got out💖
@@emmaearhart I'm a recently deconverted JW. One of these days I'll make my own video about it. In the meantime if you have any questions I'm happy to help. I'm an atheist BTW
I think there's something in the bible about... we all have belief in god imprinted on our hearts... or some such.
Be ready for them to come back at you with this stuff.
The Bible is evidence of religion, not God.
Oh man, that's a good one.
That's going to break a few brains, it's so logical and true.
I'm going to drop this like a bomb the next time I argue with an over- the - top theist who is convinced God exists and he KNOWS the real truth about religion.
He also has never heard of the Trinity, or sat in a church pew for hours, bored shitless.
In his perfect understanding
of religion, true believers don't
have to do that, right?
This little gem is gonna cook what little Grey matter stil rattles around in his skull,
in real time.
Thanks for sharing, you made my day.
😂
Well said. Simple, concise and right on point 👍
...
However... I fesr it's still too complex for Theists to grasp.
Big difference, so many ignore it
Idk why the pushback on the Bible being dismissed as evidence for God?
Maybe it’s not good evidence, but it could be revelatory.
If a God existed, and intervened with humans at one point, and they wrote about it. It could be viewed as a piece of evidence.
The same way atheists argue that there’s not many extra biblical sources referencing Jesus. Why look at the lack of evidence for that instance as evidence against his existence, yet not look at the Bible as a form of revelatory evidence for God?
I’m not a Christian nor do i think the Bible is good evidence, but I disagree heavily with this point that it’s not ‘evidence’ for God.
Well said!
I live in United States and Christianity is what I was taught" - One of the most honest answers as to why Lazaro is Christian that I have heard.
If Religious people were truthful as to why they believe the religion that the believe, it would be one of only a few things:
A) They were raised from very young that they should accept it, and that this is good, AKA indoctrinated to the religion presented at the time,
B) They had a profound experience(s) or even hallucinations that they - or others attributed it to the religion presented at the time,
C) They felt lost, etc. until they started believing it, and they or others attributed the change to the religion presented at the time.
D) They continue believing it because they surround themself (or are surrounded) with like-minded believers who (consciencely or unconsciously) train the followers NOT to use critical thinking and add slogans and other mental tricks to keep the followers believing.
A, B, C, & D are the real reason any individual is a religious adherent and is what keeps popular religions around.
"Sometimes you may find a man skilful in his trade, perfect in sagacity and in the use of arguments, but when he comes to religion he is found obstinate, so does he follow the old groove. Piety is implanted in human nature; it is deemed a sure refuge. To the growing child that which falls from his elders' lips is a lesson that abides with him all his life. Monks in their cloisters and devotees in their mosques accept their creeds just as a story is handed down from him who tells it, without distinguishing between a true interpreter and a false. If one of these had found his kin among the Magians, or among the Sabians, he would have declared himself a Magian or among the Sabians he would have become nearly or quite like them.
For al-Ma'rri religion is a "fable invented by the ancients," worthless except for those who exploit the credulous masses."
Al-ma'rri Philosopher and Poet
973 - 1057 AD
Lazaro is well on his way to deconstructing!
My brain, cuz I couldn't take any more.
I love this. Matt is so patient with this caller, helping him with his way through thinking, really thinking. Because this caller engages honestly and openly, the conversation is very satisfying.
Just skip till 20 minutes lol
Initially the caller was resistant but they really helped him overcome it and he ended up being honest. This has been one of my favorite calls
You call that patient?
@Mark73 I agree with Matt on nearly everything, but I don't like how he talks to people. Very rude, arrogant, and off putting.
He is so smart but if he would be a little more kind, then some ppl may be more receptive to the good thoughts he has to offer.
Don't get me wrong, most ppl have their minds made up already, but there are some that are still on the fence and this type of attitude could really turn someone away.
Just my opinion
@@UNCThunder The problem is that he's jaded from 20+ years of talking to people with no critical thinking skills.
I'm not afraid of death. I'm afraid of suffering. I won't miss me when I'm gone and I make sure those I love know that I love them while I am here. If there's a god, I'm more interested in god explaining itself than I am of explaining myself.
@Dorff_Meister I have championed that I want to be mentally present for my death for 20+ years.
I don't always advocate for death by suicide, but I definitely want to be lucid for my passing, if at all possible, and feel it should be a choice. It's the whole reason I'm here, and it would be a shame to miss it if I was fucking sleeping.
@@BuddyBouncer I hope you get your wish. Unfortunately, short of self-ending, I'm not sure how you guarantee your desired outcome. I would never flippantly encourage that outcome, but I also believe everyone should be free to make their own (well considered) choices.
I mourn my eventual death because of all the things I will not see, do and experience. That's it. I don't want it to be all over.
The most powerful phrase I've ever heard Matt say is, "reliable path to truth." The second half of this conversation is a good example of Matt trying to show Lazaro why the reasons for his beliefs were not a reliable path to truth. My favorite type of call (excluding all the acrimony in the first half).
@@LordOfThePancakes Cool story bro. How do you know it's true?
@@LordOfThePancakes Cool story. Is everyone who has a story right or just you and your story? You sound just like a Mormon.
For me, it was when i realized,my religion depends on where i was born and what was taught to me to be true.
@damzey911 For me it was when I saw that without religion we still have an evolutionary reason to be good people, to treat people how we want to be treated etc..
And also that humans have a purpose BECAUSE we came from lucky laws of nature & chemistry.. The first sentient life ( that we can see ) waking up in an unprepared, cold, dangerous universe..
We aren't ( unwanted ) pets in a petri-dish doing what we are told..
We are not second in a "safe" created world,..
We are the first,
finding our way, unprepared , but still surviving ..
That gives way more purpose, to keep life alive, than being good pets..
😁☮️🌏
@@claudiaarjangi4914There are thousands of other examples of sentient life on Earth, and we definitely aren’t the first.
@@reefhogbut part of the power grasp of religion is the denial of that. “Humans aren’t animals” and “evolution isn’t true”. They fight those SOOO HARD, not because they can’t see the evidence, because they don’t want to concede the evidence. It is the comfort of a status quo. And admitting that we aren’t the greatest, the smartest, or the soul arbiters of “right vs wrong” topples their power. The divine mandate is where all of their justification comes from. They have to question their whole worldview. And they are afraid of that
The effort paid off! Kudos to Lazaro for having the humility to recognize the limitations of his arguments and the willingness to entertain potentially terrifying possibilities. He hung in there while his entire worldview was surgically eviscerated and stayed cool. Dude is okay in my book.
I feel like Matt was close to losing the conversation on this one (in terms of hanging up, not in his points) but really brought it back so hard and actually got this guy to engage. Amazing work.
Yeah. I'm really glad that he stuck to the call longer than he had any real reason or obligation to. It really came into becoming a really good conversation.
As an atheist, I’ve watched about 100 of these episodes but this one straight up gave me chills. You could just feel the callers walls breaking down, his mind drifting into territory that he has probably always felt were forbidden to explore, and his heart softening to possibilities. His words showed that he wasn’t ready to say anything like that out loud, but you can just tell. Well down fellas. This is exactly the end goal here, and you guys did a phenomenal job.
I am not Christian and have no religion. All these reasoning Matt and Jimmy gives seems so natural and logical to me. Why is it so difficult for people with religion? Can someone maybe explain to me why do I feel that Christians/Muslims sound so ridiculous, illogical, irrational, gullible, hypocritical, arrogant, dishonest, petty, etc etc. I am now very fearful of them.
Religions indoctrinate you from birth to think one way with a number of traps that give you cognitive dissonance if you think too hard about it. Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable, and so you avoid it. It's hard to question everything you've ever known, so you avoid it.
I struggle with that a lot when watching these videos, too. You just have to realize that not everyone thinks the same way. A lot of people are more swayed by emotional reasoning than logical reasoning. It's something that always sticks out to me on these calls, everyone wants to think that they care about the truth but then they will agree when they're shown that they don't have any good reasons for their belief.
It’s called indoctrination. When you tell a child what to believe from a young age, it is extremely difficult to change what that child believes when they reach adulthood. They are taught not to question their beliefs.
I believe it is due to cognitive load. They cannot think and reason honestly through a thought process, every step of the way they are trying to understand where the conversation is going and make sure their immediate answer isn’t going to concede ground. And they mostly do not have any experience outside of defending their beliefs to other religions. So every time they’re asked a question, their entire worldview has to load and compare answers and that’s why it sounds like their brain isn’t getting enough oxygen. It’s similar to a criminal being interrogated while trying to maintain a cover story. They can’t just answer the question, they have to mentally review how that answer will comport with their overall story. Literally bogs the brain down.
@@Krikenemp18 That's why I think they are either delussional, or they know they are wrong but are insisting they are right, therefore it makes them extremely hypocritical. And because their system of reasoning is in such a way, I find it very hard to respect their overall character.
It's been a month since I lost the most important person in my life, and this situation only reinforces that "god" does not exist. "God" would have to be very cruel to make life so short and fragile.
I have great respect for Lazaro for sticking through this.
I think this exchange shows how important it is to be able to adapt from calm and diplomatic to forceful and fighty and back again for getting people to listen and to be heard. good for listening too. Enough force to break through the indoctrination, but enough empathy and patience to be productive with that breach made in a person's thinking. I know some people say Snow and Dillahunty are angry atheists, but I think this shows the opposite. Personally I am taking notes on this kind of conversing technique.
More than that I'd say the anger comes from people not answering a very simple question. What do you believe and why. When so many people call the show and end up dancing around the question without actually explaining what they believe and why I'd get frustrated too.
@@drc3po The reason it's hard for these people is because they've fighting their narrative. They have accepted something as a given, and it's been so reinforced by everyone around them that to them it's as obvious as the sky being blue. Then when someone comes in and starts questioning that they can't answer because they've never had to actually examine what they believe.
@@drc3poThey know that if they answer honestly it will expose their lack of reasoning ability 😮
Matt'd been intellectualy huge, this caller being honest gave us the opportunity of an amazing conversation. Maybe the best I've heard. Thank you all.
This is the best part of this show. I love hearing the change in their voices.
This was a great call. A theist that became more honest as things went on is rare.
“We’ve been taught where we live”, not everyone. My ex was born and raised in a small Norwegian town, had never met anyone who had ever been a theist- as far as he knew- since he met me, when he was 17. His background was so secular that the idea of a grownup genuinely believing in god, in the 21st century, was baffling to him.
No one ever taught him god existed. He never assumed it did. Atheism was just what one is where he was brought up.
Wow.
I'm envious of him.
yes. atheism is the default setting. And when your adults never mention any deity in any way, you are guaranteed to remain an atheist. No deity cares to reach you. Somehow :- )
Then the 1st history lesson is funny. And the 1st random prayer scene in a random (usually U.S.) movie is strange beyond measure. We even have a joke about this.
- do you pray before a meal?
- No, we don't. My mom knows enough about cooking.
I love Matt like I love Simon Cowell, he tells the truth, brutally when necessary, and doesn’t suffer any BS from idiots.
I saw a dance video and thought, she said she wasn't going to be able to dance anymore. Then I thought maybe it was before she was on BGT but it was a new video. Then I thought it was a different girl, nope same girl.
I looked into. She was going to have surgery to straighten her back but it would fuse vertebra.
Simon flew her to New York for much more expensive intensive surgery that would straighten her back and she would still be able to dance.
It wasn't big news so he must have kept it quiet or at least didn't brag about it.
I'm just at the start, but crows have a level of intelligence and reasoning of a 7 year old kid. We're not special XD
This conversation was awesome. And Jimmy, you keep improving at having these conversations. I know you'd prefer producing, but you have other great contributions to give, if you care for it.
Oh sorry - GFY!
"Let none enter here who are ignorant of geometry."
- Plato's Academy
Damn skippy.
-Plato's closet
It must be scary, losing your religion and knowing it, feeling your previous belief structure falling from under you in real time. As a life long atheist, I have no idea how scary that must be.
It's scarier for some more than others but it is a pretty rough thing in general. Some people, that's basically all they know. So some end up with basically no sense of how to find decent morals without religion, and how to look about anything without it. It's a pity, really.
I'm still terrified and I know full well I was lied to.
@@apophenic_ I hope it gets better with time
It must be scary on their deathbed. Let's face it, death is annihilation. I'm agnostic, and I find the idea of facing death someday just terrifying.
@@DPortugal I'm atheist and I really hate the idea of not being able to think. I like to think.
Came back to listen to this again. One of the best turnaround convos I've heard on this channel.
Matt!!!!! The Ashley Book of Knots! Good man. I'm an International Guild of Knot Tyers member myself. Took me by surprise when you lifted that off the shelf. Funny things is, we 'knot tyers' refer to ABOK as the 'knot tyer's Bible'. Made me giggle. Keep on keeping on.
That was good when Jimmy tried to prevent Lazaro from changing the subject to why Matt left his church. Religious apologists love to dodge their burden of proof, and one of their favorite tactics is by changing the subject.
That was a great discussion. It's refreshing to have a caller who can honestly answer questions. I do hope he continues to follow the path towards demonstrating what's true because I feel from this conversation he's dipping his toes in. Good on Lazaro I wish him all the best
It's interesting how Matt asks some obvious questions like "how do you know the Bible is from God" and the caller seems really stumped like this is an incredibly difficult question he has never had to face.
The things we take for granted assuming everyone has had to wrestle with these basic fundamental questions by necessity!
You're doing good work challenging people's ingrained biases. Everyone needs to be challenged this way about their beliefs in life!
I literally can’t find a puzzle hard enough for one of my dogs. He’s a genius. The other one just flops behind him and tries to get stray treats. They’re both figuring it out at a high level 😂
As much as people seem to crap on Matt and Jimmy, I do think this style of direct confrontation is needed for a lot of people to see how awful their arguments sound to others. I can see how some would buckle back down and get defensive, but other folks really just need all the bad reasoning pointed out and their world views challenged.
I think this is really about learning from others... sometimes at their public expense...
Probably, to some degree. I'd still think at least some of the callers do use this as a jumping off point to more seriously consider their beliefs and reasoning. And if not, then yeah, other people watching can do the same thing. At a minimum, they could at least watch the more irrational arguements play out so they know in advance what doesnt cut it. I know I've for sure been stuck in irrational thinking patterns throughout my life, and at least part of the reason I listen to this show is to make sure I'm reminding myself to be more careful and aware that I'm still susceptible to locking myself into a position without considering I might not have all the facts. I gotta remember to stay skeptical somehow lol
Saw a video where a gorilla subdued a member of its group that started a fight. It used enough force to not hurt the other gorilla, but enough to effectively tell it that it was misbehaving and that the behavior was not appropriate.
Animals are able to act very “humanlike.” So it stands to reason they have rudimentary belief systems. We just take it to the logical conclusion.
Yeah, just look at all the odd animal behaviors we don't understand. Who's to say that my cat staring at literally nothing on the wall for 10 minutes straight isn't some form of prayer to her approximation of a God concept for cats?
Even cats will engage in something like this, to some extent.
If you ever saw a kitten annoying the living daylights out of an older cat, you’ll notice that the older cat tends not to actually hurt the kitten. A few swats to the head, hissing, growling, even chasing, that tends to be the pattern. Even when the older cat could easily snap the kitten’s neck in two, it hardly ever does.
@@Krikenemp18 One word, daydreaming... your cat was daydreaming about the day their race conquered the world.
Humans are animals, humans often try to forget that because too many of them/us do things animals would find “barbaric”.
@@Krikenemp18 Let us read from The Holy Verses of our “Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats”, Chapter “The Naming of Cats”, by our prophet, The Serene Elliot:
_When you notice a cat in profound meditation,_
_The reason, I tell you, is always the same:_
_His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation_
_Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:_
_His ineffable effable_
_Effanineffable_
_Deep and inscrutable singular name._
I think this is the closest I've ever seen on this or the Atheist Experience to a caller almost switching from theist to atheist on air. Good job!
Matt, you are usually a very good interlocutor, but this was you at what may have been your most eloquent.
@@het53 You should consider reading something other than your Wholly Fables
My dog Suki had her own comfy bed in the living room but was forbidden to sit on the lounge. She knew this perfectly well from puppyhood. A friend who had several dogs offered to look after mine while I was away on a trip. On returning, I stopped at her house to pick up Suki. There she was, curled up on my friend's lounge with my friend's dogs. As soon as Suki saw me, she cringed, ears back, crawled off the lounge and hid behind it. I had said nothing and shown no anger, in fact I'd laughed when I saw all the dogs piled up. But Suki had internalised the guilt - it was forbidden to sit on the lounge - at least when I was present. I did wonder if she broke the rule at home when I was out! This seems very human-like behaviour; I'm sure most of us have at some time broken some small rule when we thought no-one was watching.
There's /clearly/ a heathen in the house. Might want to do some cocaine about your blood ghosts.
Every time Mat says "No sir!" I imagine him in a Wonka hat :P (original movie)
Matt and Jimmy are like the Berlin Wall when it was there, nothing gets through it, under it or over it! What a team. Totally wipes the floor with them all! Well done lads.
Managed to do 20 minutes before tapping out. Poor old Lazaro had nothing.
I am kind of floored. These calls rarely end up with this result. I think Matt and Jimmy actually moved the meter in this guy’s thinking and it was worth the effort. I hope some theists were listening to this and that it struck a chord.
I love the way you don't let these ppl get away with saying false things. Unfortunately ppl that believe the right religious stories expect to get away with all sorts of dishonesty and ignorance. I'm so bored of thoughtless ignorant ppl being humoured because they claim to believe religious fever dreams.
My favourite call so far… so awesome that it didn’t just devolve into an argument.
It amazes me how the fact that thousands have been proposed that they still say theirs is right and it’s not cause of where/when they were born and what their parents probably believed. That should be full stop there to think about it.
This was the best discussion I've seen yet on these shows. I do struggle with Matt's forwardness and I feel he is unfair sometimes. But as another commentor stated, once he got into the discussion and saw the caller respond to reason, it became a good, empathic discussion.
Baptists have preachers which is pretty much the same thing as a priest.
On paper I think priests are in communion with God and preachers preach, that is talk about God.
If I said "God talks to me" I'd be out in a nut house.
When someone asks me why I believe that there is a dog sitting on the couch behind me, it's so easy to answer. As is the explanation for everything else I believe in. Theists need to see that every belief they hold other than about god can be explained simply and clearly and that their explanations for their god belief, if they were sound, would also be that easy to explain.
Fear of death is one of the main reason that religon preys on the masses. Also the promise of an afterlife and controlling people.They get people to come every Sunday and pay money for the promise of life after death. They teach that if you do not obey you will go to hell. I also noticed a bunch of hippocritical adults at the church. That did not sit right with me. I am a truth teller. I became an atheist because I wised up over time. I was also a skeptic. I never liked the whole group mentality thing. I noticed that none of my prayers were answered by a non existent god. I was a good person.Why did I always get bullied in school ect...Also, how could God allow all the horrible things that occurred in my life personally. Physical and SA by my parents who went to church every Sunday. When I started working as a teenager there was no way I was going to give money to an organization that did not pay taxes. In was also was an avid news watcher, even as a child. How could a god allow all the unrest in the world. I started to thinking independently from my parents especially in college. I discovered Christopher Hitchens. My HERO. Then at my first professional job I befriended a holocaust survivor. When I saw those numbers on her arm that did it. I went from being 75%agnostic to 100% pure atheist. It took another 30 yrs for me to come out to family as an atheist. Having a boyfriend that was one helped. Of course they want to blame him. He just gave me the courage to come out.
This was a great call.
I learned so much that I can use at debate with theists.
Thanks guys!
You set the bar pretty low, eh?
15 mins in and Lazaro is on the shakiest of shaky grounds.
23 mins in Lazaro is slowly clawing his way back.
What a likeable guy Lazaro is. I can't imagine how hard it would be for him to leave his faith. Filled with compassion for him and so glad I live in a secular society.
" I don't want to betray myself " yet believing without any sort of real reason is betraying yourself
Hi, came upon your channel. I am a 78 yo Dutch male. I learned a lot from you two.😊. I was raised without religion, I don't believe in a god at all. I have never been to church. I (tried) to read a book of Richard Dawkins but for me it is a very difficult language, like the books of Jamie Raskin and Joe Biden. Sometimes I had to look in the dictionary for three words in one sentence. You two talk in more simple English, but very to the point. I saw a comment on RUclips that impressed me. It was about Trumpists, but it is also valid for religion. All lies. I subscribed😊
It is almost impossible to reason someone out of something they were never reasoned into.
Of all the bizarre things, one of the more banal things caught my ear was that “I am a Baptist like Matt was”. The fact that the Baptist church has fractured so often and is still fracturing is proof enough against biblical inerrancy.
I ask people on my fb How do they know they have a soul. One guy actually said. Because I’m breathing. 😂
Here’s a question for the believers: if a small (or even large) sin condemns me for eternity, why doesn’t an act of virtue give me eternal salvation? If the answer is, you are not capable of a truly virtuous act, then why even try? I suppose you can plan for a nice stay in purgatory, believer.
This call shows why this and similar shiws serve a good purpose; which is helping folks willing to have an honest conversation understand how there is no logical reasons for faith and belief, and to show how faith and belief are not based on evidence.
This was such a good call once Lazaro actually started answering the questions. When I was a believer I got very good at pointing out the flaws of other religions and other Christian sects. Eventually, I realized that people from those other denominations, sects, and religions, thought the exact same thing as I did but about my beliefs. At that point, the proverbial veil was lifted and I realized that we all could not be right, but we all could be wrong. I started considering my own beliefs with that same level of criticism and found that there was not one good (logically sound) reason to believe it.There are many "good" reasons to believe or claim to believe in a god, but that does not make the proposition true.
Great call. This is a good example of Matt's anger being inversely proportional to the caller's honesty!
Dogs are better than people. They don't know money, bigotry, racism, religion, god.. they're just happy to see ya. Closest thing to unconditional love I've ever come across.
It's crazy to see someone have their first original thought. I see a lot of my old self in Lazaro. If I were still Christian, I'd pray that he'd think a bit more about this conversation. 🙏
Being frustrated by religion isn't "atheist" but it certainly can be the path to get you there.
One of the best discussions I've ever heard. Thanks, Matt and Jimmy.
Believer or not, no one should listen to Lazaro
Eh, by the end he was way more honest and willing to listen than the average caller to the show. He was at least willing to acknowledge the traps and hangups and flaws in his own reasoning, and actually engage in self reflection. That’s waaay better than we usually get from callers
So obnoxious how commenters like you get so antagonistic about every callers, even those that are trying to be intellectually honest. You’re just making the community look bad.
Matt was listening to him.
@@TrentR42smart pants? It means he should not be taken seriously.
The dude winds up being more self-aware and humbly honest than 99% of the callers to these shows. All of the theists should listen to him.
I’m so happy that this convo didn’t go south. Or didn’t stay there.
Most Christians are at the same level as Lazaro. They know many things don't make sense in Christianity, but because they've been indoctrinated since little children, it is very hard to come to terms with the facts of reality. The other factor is a safe mental space in the face of everyday life, "God is looking after you" and all that kind of thinking. I understand how hard it is to live in a society with two sides constantly pulling on you, on one side a cold cruel capitalism where a person is only a number, and on the other side, evangelical extremists spreading fear.
GREAT TALK!! We Are Moving Away From The Bible (and other Religions) And The World Is A Better Place For It. PERIOD.
Lazaro is actually honest about alot of things. Respect that.
When dogs are scolded they absolutely know what that means. No physical contact at all is necessary. There's like, a million RUclips videos of this.
Dogs learning and thinking abilities are unbelievable even compared to primates. ✌️
@@markhaunert5029 You have to remember, we artificially engineered them that way
@peachypet808 not sure what you mean by artificial.
@@markhaunert5029 We bred them. Do you think there is anything natural turning a wolf into a demon-rat (chihuahua)?
@peachypet808 actually yes. Selective breeding is considered natural. Just like any other species. Just keeping alive " gimps " that wouldn't survive the wild true but still natural.
22:40 Jimmy name-dropping r34 fucking sent me
This entire conversation has been wild as hell
I don't mind Matt's approach at all. Personally, I think the time for patience has long passed. The moment believers start wielding their beliefs against reason and logic in our governments, our schools, our doctor's offices, our homes, and our personal lives, patience goes out the door.
I wish people were honest and say things like “I believe in god because I was taught to believe” or “I believe because I am held accountable to the people who taught me” or like “I believing in god holds the connection between me and the person who taught me”
Fear of death - I do think that is a strong argument for a lot of christians, but not the only one. I think a lot of christians also find that they need to believe that they will be forgiven for their sins. Asking another person for forgivness is hard to most, and it is so much easier to pray to god for forgiveness.
One of my favorite calls of all time.
This got off to a rough start but turned out to be one of the best The Line conversations ever.
"X can't explain Y therefore god."
Broken epistemology. Good luck with that conversation.
Magnetohydrodynamics can’t explain the existence of Spider-Man comics. Therefore God.
(Sorry. Wanted to type Magnetohydrodynamics.)
Here is Matt being excellent again. Matt, you really master your domain.
Just a very long discussion on the God of the Gaps and how to teach Lazaro to construct an argument.
Oh yes, the bapticism episode 😁
Lazaro was bad, reaaaaly baaaad. But got better during the call. 🤙
Dismiss the olympian gods?! Blasphemy, may Zeus strike you with lightning.
Such a fantastic episode, especially as it deals with Pascal’s wager. Great work! Thank you ❤
Kids, don't do Meth or Jesus... or Mohamed.
Matt and Jimmy use such different tactics for explaining to these guys why their reasoning is flawed that often it's just as frustrating listening to them compete as it is listening to the bad "arguments".
To me that's ideal if you're going to have two hosts together. If they're going to use the same tactics then you only need one of them. But by having the two different viewpoints, they can try different things to see what will reach the caller/listeners.
Different good reasons never become bad reasons.
@@niblick616 Don't know why you felt the need to respond to something that wasn't said.
@@fedos
You made the following claim "..Matt and Jimmy use such different tactics for explaining to these guys why their reasoning is flawed that often it's just as frustrating listening to them..."
Why is having two people explain a problem 'frustrating' to you? Does it matter in any way, what happens to frustrate you?
They don’t compete.
Matt.... Wow, Thank you for this conversation
I cannot properly and efficiently articulate why… but these videos tie my stomach in knots. But… i stick through these when possible because there can be a sense of catharsis. A feeling that i survived. I think for me… i don’t associate with Matt… i don’t see myself as the “hero” here. I see myself in the callers. The denial, the fear, the waffling. I know in my brain that science is earnest. But my conditioning and upbringing still holds sway over my thinking. I think i watch these to try to break down the false narratives and reasoning i was raised with. The help me strip away my “magical” thinking
Dog: Last week I hurt my paw and Mommy felt sorry for me and gave me extra treats. _So…_ if I pretend my paw hurts now, maybe she’ll feel sorry for me again and give me those extra treats!”😏😏😏
When I was fourteen and really, really interested in the fascinating world of science I started asking my church leader these very questions. I immediately learned they made him very uncomfortable. He would say let me get back to you. He never did of course.
The 4 levels of aggression:
Matt: - asks yes or no question - *level 1*
Caller: well you said...
Matt: no! Answer my question. Yes or no? *level 2*
Caller: But your scien...
Matt: NO! ANSWER MY FU*KING QUESTION! *level 3*
Caller: don't interrupt me
Matt: - hang up - this is my fu*king show! *level 4*
10:55 This is EVERY conversation with my mom.. not just religion. My Dad was a research scientist.
I feel your pain, guys.
These are the conversations I watch the videos for. Good job, Jimmy and Matt!
After watching many calls with Matt, when someone says "I'm actually a Baptist like Matt was", I hear "I had a broken leg like Matt did". I think Lazaro's leg is healing....
This guy seems more honest than any other callers..
50:40, Lazaro, you finally see it. Wonderful....
This was an excellent call.
It feels like by using reason and patience they actually started the caller down the road to leaving his religion and it's actually amazing. It feels like this guy might be questioning his religion a lot going forward.
Advice to theist callers. Be prepared to succinctly and specifically explain what you believe and why. Be prepared to offer a definition of the God you believe in and supply some kind of reason why you believe in that God, and why anyone else should believe it. That is the very minimum requirement. If you are not prepared to do either of those things, you will be shot down in flames, immediately, so don’t bother calling into the show. Also, please listen to at least ten episodes of a show before you call in, so you can get an accurate idea of what to expect. Callers sometimes get frustrated or disoriented when the host asks a question that you haven’t thought about. Then you will accuse the hosts of being unreasonable and combative, which they are not. They just ask questions for clarification, not to embarrass you. Just do your homework before you call.
Edit: NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER interrupt or talk over Matt or any other host. Matt’s (and most others) answer will either be “Shut the fu** up” or “no sir, no sir, no sir, no sir, OK, I’m done.” (click). (And that’s when he’s in a good mood.)
Starting at 30:23 Jimmy and Matt explain beautifully why there are angry vegans as well. With the added incitement that we know someone is being violently exploited and/or killed . . . although now that I think of it, that can be the case with religions, too. We're not always angry though. Most of us try to spread a lot of love, too! 😻 Good discussion guys!
What Jimmy said about why he doesn't want to die endears him to me forever (or until I die).