I agree that overall Tonya was judged pretty fairly over the years and was placed appropriately, but there are a couple of exceptions, one of which might have been pretty significant relative to the scandal. In the Albertville 1992 Olympics, Kerrigan was in medal position because she had landed her 3Lutz combo and Tonya had missed her 3Axel combo. (This is basically fair, but it is an interesting conversation on how to compare a missed 3A to a landed 3L; nowadays we'd start by looking at whether each one was fully rotated first and also give all the other elements points.) So Kerrigan was in medal position, and then the judges seemed to keep her propped up there even though she had a pretty rocky long program. I've always thought Tonya had the better long program and should have been the bronze medalist rather than the 4th place person. (She did five successful triples, like Midori and Kristi, and only missed the 3-Axel--- which only Midori landed when she tried it the 2nd time.The Robinhood program was more coherent than some of her other programs and fit her style.) Of course this would have affected perceptions leading into 1994 with just that one switch, but it seemed as though the judges had already decided that Kerrigan was going to be on the podium unless she completely imploded, which I've always thought was wrong. The other time I question whether she was judged fairly was the 1993 nationals, where she also finished fourth and didn't go to Worlds. But that was that weird year when NO ONE one skated particularly well, and even Kerrigan in 1st place made a number of mistakes. But again, it seemed that the judges had predetermined to keep Kerrigan propped up as the new golden/it girl, which is kind of the point about the judging system and the US FSA in those days. Then there was also the grand prix NHK Trophy event overseas at the end of 1993 before the scandal when she placed 4th, and this supposedly had some significance if I remember right; however, Nancy was not there, and I've never been able to find video of that competition, so it's hard to determine how fair that was. My understanding was that she wasn't in the form she was in at nationals in 1994 anyway. Also, Christine, what are you smoking at 28:00 about Nancy Kerigan's "athletic prowess" and her consisitency and high level of delivering when it matters going into 1994? She thankfully got it together for the long program in Lillihammer as we all know, and she had pretty consistent short programs, but that's all we seem to remember. Let's be honest here; Kerrigan had quite a few rocky long programs when it came time to do multiple triples. The revisionist history regarding Tonya goes both ways and seems to have colored the media's history surrounding Nancy leading into 1994 as well. Was Kerrigan's "athletic prowess" on display in the long program in Albertville? (no, in spite of the bronze) long program at 1992 worlds (no, in spite of the silver) long program at 1993 nationals (no, in spite of the win) long program at 1993 worlds (let's not go there). But the fact that the results were not always affected by mistakes in long programs, coupled with how the media would always go on about her grace and beauty, did paint an awkward picture that I specifically remember unfolding when I was watching in the early 1990s even before the scandal happened. So, I'm questioning Christine's ability to get her facts right about what was unfolding back then, in spite of her immense knowledge of this situation. She's using the long program in Lillehammer and her end results to create a revisionist history regarding Kerrigan, in my opinion, and she's not realizing that some of Kerrigan's mistakes being overlooked was the other half of the coin leading into the scandal.
It can be both. You can agree that she should've been banned, and feel sorry for her that she couldn't compete anymore. I don't think this is a trick of the movie, I think it shows our empathy as human beings and the complexity of that situation. People make horrible decisions based on their life's trajectory but that doesn't mean our empathy causes us to reject punishment. This is the basis of Greek tragedy. The true tragic hero cannot be too good or too bad, but he must end up in misery. Basically a kinda good person changes from happiness to misery because of some great error (whack!.) Aristotle wrote that this tragic hero causes the audience to have both pity (empathy,) and fear (knowing she will/and should be punished.) So Tonya elicits both of these emotions out of us. Thus...it can be both. I think Aristotle would love this movie.
This journalist irks me. She totally lets her mom off the hook by saying no one gets to that high level without their parents. But at what cost??? Like they can't be crap parents on their way to getting their kid to a high level . Abuse is still abuse. This is the type of person that would send a kid to prison instead of trying to really help the kid. "facts are facts" yes Christine but context is context .
first of all, let me preface with the fact I've not seen this movie. But Brennan noted that there was too heavy of a play on violence for her, and that this "took away" from the movie for her. I'd like to note ... that the violence, which from what I've heard and from what I've vicariously experienced through clients, was most likely not overplayed. And that it "took away" from Tonya's life as well. Skating officials and fans as well, have poo-pooed what THEY believed took place. We have doubted Tonya, I believe, because she is one of the "have-nots" who has no business in the preferred fairy-tale view of figure skating. This covers the truth --first of all, --skating is, and always has been a "snob" sport, and it is filled with grit that no one wants to admit, but skaters themselves, who live it on a daily basis. I like Tonya (far better than I did Nancy), and believe that all that violence had a definite stamp on her that won't go away. Her punishment was ludicrous, and definitely favored Nancy as the "wronged champion-in--waiting". I do look forward to seeing the movie. The whole thing was a soap opera (enter T'SL's new theme song)
Can’t wait to watch when I get done here! (I’m currently playing clarinet in the orchestra pit for The Nutcracker with visions of Jill Trenary, Jenny Kirk, and Mao Asada in my head.)
This is a great conversation! So detailed and thoughtful. One question, though-- did you not think that Tonya was robbed of a spot on the '93 world team? I just recently watched her performance vs. the others, and I definitely don't think that Tonia Kwiatkowski (and probably Lisa Ervin) should have finished ahead of her... Granted, this was back in the days of the ordinal system, where weird stuff would happen-- but I do think an argument can be made that this championship illustrated a bias against Tonya.
MrSk8ingfan I think there is a legitimate argument that Tonya should’ve been sent to the 93 Worlds. Based on US politics, what likely happened is that the judges were sending a message after Tonya showed up late to the Olympics, bombed at the 92 Worlds and was out of shape for the 92-93 season. It was not a wise move, as Ervin and Kwiatkowski were both inexperienced. It reminds me of the men’s event in 2011. I don’t know that I can say Tonya was robbed of the bronze, as both Tonya and Tonia performed terribly. I do think Tonia had more energy, but it was clear that the potential was far less. Tonya really gave up and looked winded 90 seconds into her free skate. Her dress came apart in the short. I don’t think CHJ’s students were ready for the World level, but the U.S. judges have repeatedly punished skaters like Harding, Bobek, Abbott and Weir over the years. It certainly wound up costing the U.S. a spot. I doubt Tonya would’ve done that well in Prague, but she certainly would’ve been in the conversation and made it out of qualifying. Tonia K had been around for many years and judges do tend to reward the hardworking types every so often. Given that it was a pre Olympic year and Ervin didn’t have a high level of technical merit, I would’ve chosen to send Tonya H (but I understand why they didn’t and think it is a valid POV).
Christine writes about this in her book. In '93 Both Harding and Bobeck could have been sent but they decided not to place the "bad/wild" girls on the team. In '93 that meant giving them 2nd and third place on the podium at nationals. In the end it was arguably one of the worst world teams in history. Tonia didn't make it out of qualifying round and Lisa ended up 15th. With Kerrigan's 5th place, the US only had 2 spots for the 1994 Olymlics. So I wholeheartedly believe Bobek and Harding should have gone.
PJ Bottoms I do think there is a legitimate question of why wasn’t Tonya prepared for Nationals? Would she have been prepared for Worlds? I do think she would’ve finished higher than Ervin. I would have likely sent Ervin as the third competitor.
TheSkatingLesson I believe Harding had a sprained ankle at 93 Nationals. Even so, Harding was not in great shape and the talk was she had not heen training enough. Ervin did not have a triple lutz so I didn't think she was ready for senior worlds. Bobek, like Harding, was thought to have hot mess training habits in 93. Peggy Fleming said in her commentary that "it was not very inspired out there." I believe Kerrigan won her title with only 3 triples. This season is fascinating because there were so many "if only" variables. What if Tonya was named to the 93 team and won a medal? Being "left off" the team just fueled Tonya's paranoia that the USFSA was "against her" imo. Love your podcast!!!!!
If I’m remembering correctly, leaving Harding off the World Team also meant if she made it to Lillehammer, she would wind up in the first group to skate since she was no longer world class. A far inferior position than skating later amongst the best skaters and where the judges save their highest marks.
If you believe in science, the illusion of free will fades. There will always be criticism from people like Brennan (just read her articles on the situation) on portrayals trying to of what causes people to act the way they do. The first criticism is always that it is trying to drum up sympathy. But if we grew up in a drastically different situation, then we will behave drastically differently. If we cared enough about the environments that cause people to do such reactions, we would have the ability to prevent such outcomes in the future. Unless you change the environment, you can't change the person.
Christine Brennan articulates exactly what I thought of the movie. I disliked it much more than anyone I've heard. I thought the violence was over the top, I thought Margot Robbie was miscast and not even well acted, and I thought the caricature of the mother was too one dimensional to be Oscar worthy. It short, it was a lot of BS that wasn't even that funny.
This video is honestly embarrassing and so close minded. Basically they said that since it was her friends and her ex-husband that did the attack there is no way that she can be a victim. WHAT?! How can you even say that seriously.
Interesting how she brings politics into this. If she wants to comment on this movie as being "perfect" for the Trump era because of its darkness, how about also comparing Tonya with Hillary Clinton, who blames everyone but herself for her losses?
Four years later and HRC is still screeching about the Russians and FBI. Thank God...Thank God she lost in 2016. Four years of Trump is better than 4 of Hillary.
Brennan has an extreme overwhelming hatred of all Russians. According to her there has never been a Russian singles skater who became world or Olympic champion that wasn’t over scored and dance was meaningless because Russians dominated. Where did her hatred and bigotry toward all Russians come from??
Christine Brennan is completely correct about everything. Now if only she screamed as loud about the new judging system as she did about Nancy v Tonya. Russia needs a stronger USAToday fight. Love her to pieces though.
Sorry, not sorry......... Tonya would have never held it together during that long program if she actually knew. Her subconscious would have sabotaged her, like it did a bit at 91 world's when she realized she could potentially win the whole thing. Think of it this way. On top of the normal pressure of trying to make the Olympic team, you would know that if you messed up and didn't make the team, the felony you were a part of would have been all for nothing. So take the normal pressure of trying to make the Olympic team on live TV and all the nerves that brings, and then multiply it by 10, and also consider that she hadn't really done a strong long program since the 92 olympics. There is simply no way in hell she would have held it together during that long program if she knew. Christine is simply wrong. Sorry, not sorry
I agree that overall Tonya was judged pretty fairly over the years and was placed appropriately, but there are a couple of exceptions, one of which might have been pretty significant relative to the scandal. In the Albertville 1992 Olympics, Kerrigan was in medal position because she had landed her 3Lutz combo and Tonya had missed her 3Axel combo. (This is basically fair, but it is an interesting conversation on how to compare a missed 3A to a landed 3L; nowadays we'd start by looking at whether each one was fully rotated first and also give all the other elements points.) So Kerrigan was in medal position, and then the judges seemed to keep her propped up there even though she had a pretty rocky long program. I've always thought Tonya had the better long program and should have been the bronze medalist rather than the 4th place person. (She did five successful triples, like Midori and Kristi, and only missed the 3-Axel--- which only Midori landed when she tried it the 2nd time.The Robinhood program was more coherent than some of her other programs and fit her style.) Of course this would have affected perceptions leading into 1994 with just that one switch, but it seemed as though the judges had already decided that Kerrigan was going to be on the podium unless she completely imploded, which I've always thought was wrong. The other time I question whether she was judged fairly was the 1993 nationals, where she also finished fourth and didn't go to Worlds. But that was that weird year when NO ONE one skated particularly well, and even Kerrigan in 1st place made a number of mistakes. But again, it seemed that the judges had predetermined to keep Kerrigan propped up as the new golden/it girl, which is kind of the point about the judging system and the US FSA in those days. Then there was also the grand prix NHK Trophy event overseas at the end of 1993 before the scandal when she placed 4th, and this supposedly had some significance if I remember right; however, Nancy was not there, and I've never been able to find video of that competition, so it's hard to determine how fair that was. My understanding was that she wasn't in the form she was in at nationals in 1994 anyway. Also, Christine, what are you smoking at 28:00 about Nancy Kerigan's "athletic prowess" and her consisitency and high level of delivering when it matters going into 1994? She thankfully got it together for the long program in Lillihammer as we all know, and she had pretty consistent short programs, but that's all we seem to remember. Let's be honest here; Kerrigan had quite a few rocky long programs when it came time to do multiple triples. The revisionist history regarding Tonya goes both ways and seems to have colored the media's history surrounding Nancy leading into 1994 as well. Was Kerrigan's "athletic prowess" on display in the long program in Albertville? (no, in spite of the bronze) long program at 1992 worlds (no, in spite of the silver) long program at 1993 nationals (no, in spite of the win) long program at 1993 worlds (let's not go there). But the fact that the results were not always affected by mistakes in long programs, coupled with how the media would always go on about her grace and beauty, did paint an awkward picture that I specifically remember unfolding when I was watching in the early 1990s even before the scandal happened. So, I'm questioning Christine's ability to get her facts right about what was unfolding back then, in spite of her immense knowledge of this situation. She's using the long program in Lillehammer and her end results to create a revisionist history regarding Kerrigan, in my opinion, and she's not realizing that some of Kerrigan's mistakes being overlooked was the other half of the coin leading into the scandal.
I also think they propped up Kristi Yamaguchi over Tonya at the 1989 Nationals so she wouldn’t make the World team.
thanks....I'll have to go back and check that out. I thought it was pretty close.
Nate W the compulsory figures had Harding way ahead IIRC.
It can be both. You can agree that she should've been banned, and feel sorry for her that she couldn't compete anymore. I don't think this is a trick of the movie, I think it shows our empathy as human beings and the complexity of that situation. People make horrible decisions based on their life's trajectory but that doesn't mean our empathy causes us to reject punishment. This is the basis of Greek tragedy. The true tragic hero cannot be too good or too bad, but he must end up in misery. Basically a kinda good person changes from happiness to misery because of some great error (whack!.) Aristotle wrote that this tragic hero causes the audience to have both pity (empathy,) and fear (knowing she will/and should be punished.) So Tonya elicits both of these emotions out of us. Thus...it can be both. I think Aristotle would love this movie.
Can we talk about Oksana? One of my all-time favorites. I'm sure there's still a ton I don't know especially about her breakup with Galina
ManuelPabloArnao I would like to hear more about that as well.
I fell in LOVE with Oksana in '92! Absolutely hypnotic!
This journalist irks me. She totally lets her mom off the hook by saying no one gets to that high level without their parents. But at what cost??? Like they can't be crap parents on their way to getting their kid to a high level . Abuse is still abuse. This is the type of person that would send a kid to prison instead of trying to really help the kid. "facts are facts" yes Christine but context is context .
first of all, let me preface with the fact I've not seen this movie. But Brennan noted that there was too heavy of a play on violence for her, and that this "took away" from the movie for her. I'd like to note ... that the violence, which from what I've heard and from what I've vicariously experienced through clients, was most likely not overplayed. And that it "took away" from Tonya's life as well. Skating officials and fans as well, have poo-pooed what THEY believed took place. We have doubted Tonya, I believe, because she is one of the "have-nots" who has no business in the preferred fairy-tale view of figure skating. This covers the truth --first of all, --skating is, and always has been a "snob" sport, and it is filled with grit that no one wants to admit, but skaters themselves, who live it on a daily basis. I like Tonya (far better than I did Nancy), and believe that all that violence had a definite stamp on her that won't go away. Her punishment was ludicrous, and definitely favored Nancy as the "wronged champion-in--waiting". I do look forward to seeing the movie. The whole thing was a soap opera (enter T'SL's new theme song)
Can’t wait to watch when I get done here!
(I’m currently playing clarinet in the orchestra pit for The Nutcracker with visions of Jill Trenary, Jenny Kirk, and Mao Asada in my head.)
Can you do a show on Sarah Hughes and Robin Wagner? Why did Sarah drop Robin after the Olympics??
This is a great conversation! So detailed and thoughtful.
One question, though-- did you not think that Tonya was robbed of a spot on the '93 world team? I just recently watched her performance vs. the others, and I definitely don't think that Tonia Kwiatkowski (and probably Lisa Ervin) should have finished ahead of her...
Granted, this was back in the days of the ordinal system, where weird stuff would happen-- but I do think an argument can be made that this championship illustrated a bias against Tonya.
MrSk8ingfan I think there is a legitimate argument that Tonya should’ve been sent to the 93 Worlds. Based on US politics, what likely happened is that the judges were sending a message after Tonya showed up late to the Olympics, bombed at the 92 Worlds and was out of shape for the 92-93 season. It was not a wise move, as Ervin and Kwiatkowski were both inexperienced. It reminds me of the men’s event in 2011. I don’t know that I can say Tonya was robbed of the bronze, as both Tonya and Tonia performed terribly. I do think Tonia had more energy, but it was clear that the potential was far less. Tonya really gave up and looked winded 90 seconds into her free skate. Her dress came apart in the short. I don’t think CHJ’s students were ready for the World level, but the U.S. judges have repeatedly punished skaters like Harding, Bobek, Abbott and Weir over the years. It certainly wound up costing the U.S. a spot. I doubt Tonya would’ve done that well in Prague, but she certainly would’ve been in the conversation and made it out of qualifying. Tonia K had been around for many years and judges do tend to reward the hardworking types every so often. Given that it was a pre Olympic year and Ervin didn’t have a high level of technical merit, I would’ve chosen to send Tonya H (but I understand why they didn’t and think it is a valid POV).
Christine writes about this in her book. In '93 Both Harding and Bobeck could have been sent but they decided not to place the "bad/wild" girls on the team. In '93 that meant giving them 2nd and third place on the podium at nationals. In the end it was arguably one of the worst world teams in history. Tonia didn't make it out of qualifying round and Lisa ended up 15th. With Kerrigan's 5th place, the US only had 2 spots for the 1994 Olymlics. So I wholeheartedly believe Bobek and Harding should have gone.
PJ Bottoms I do think there is a legitimate question of why wasn’t Tonya prepared for Nationals? Would she have been prepared for Worlds? I do think she would’ve finished higher than Ervin. I would have likely sent Ervin as the third competitor.
TheSkatingLesson I believe Harding had a sprained ankle at 93 Nationals. Even so, Harding was not in great shape and the talk was she had not heen training enough. Ervin did not have a triple lutz so I didn't think she was ready for senior worlds. Bobek, like Harding, was thought to have hot mess training habits in 93. Peggy Fleming said in her commentary that "it was not very inspired out there." I believe Kerrigan won her title with only 3 triples. This season is fascinating because there were so many "if only" variables. What if Tonya was named to the 93 team and won a medal? Being "left off" the team just fueled Tonya's paranoia that the USFSA was "against her" imo. Love your podcast!!!!!
If I’m remembering correctly, leaving Harding off the World Team also meant if she made it to Lillehammer, she would wind up in the first group to skate since she was no longer world class. A far inferior position than skating later amongst the best skaters and where the judges save their highest marks.
If you believe in science, the illusion of free will fades. There will always be criticism from people like Brennan (just read her articles on the situation) on portrayals trying to of what causes people to act the way they do. The first criticism is always that it is trying to drum up sympathy. But if we grew up in a drastically different situation, then we will behave drastically differently. If we cared enough about the environments that cause people to do such reactions, we would have the ability to prevent such outcomes in the future. Unless you change the environment, you can't change the person.
get a hashtag now on twitter going for Tonya for Dancing With the Stars !!!! come on someone do it.
Perhaps Tonya wanted the time of the location so they can deliver the letters to Nancy while she was practicing. It's like courier mail.
Christine Brennan articulates exactly what I thought of the movie. I disliked it much more than anyone I've heard. I thought the violence was over the top, I thought Margot Robbie was miscast and not even well acted, and I thought the caricature of the mother was too one dimensional to be Oscar worthy.
It short, it was a lot of BS that wasn't even that funny.
Would love a full episode with Paul Wylie, Jill Trenery, Brian Boitano, would be golden if you could get Peggy Fleming and Janet Lynn to talk.
Looooooooooooove Christine! I do think she was a little hard on Sharapova though...
This video is honestly embarrassing and so close minded. Basically they said that since it was her friends and her ex-husband that did the attack there is no way that she can be a victim. WHAT?! How can you even say that seriously.
Interesting how she brings politics into this. If she wants to comment on this movie as being "perfect" for the Trump era because of its darkness, how about also comparing Tonya with Hillary Clinton, who blames everyone but herself for her losses?
What a stupid post. Typical Trumpanzee who can't appreciate skating.
Four years later and HRC is still screeching about the Russians and FBI.
Thank God...Thank God she lost in 2016. Four years of Trump is better than 4 of Hillary.
Brennan has an extreme overwhelming hatred of all Russians. According to her there has never been a Russian singles skater who became world or Olympic champion that wasn’t over scored and dance was meaningless because Russians dominated. Where did her hatred and bigotry toward all Russians come from??
1:54 "Unless Laëtitia Hubert shows up..." Ooh shade!
I #gagged when she said that!
Poor girl. Aka "the Human Zamboni"
Christine Brennan is completely correct about everything.
Now if only she screamed as loud about the new judging system as she did about Nancy v Tonya. Russia needs a stronger USAToday fight.
Love her to pieces though.
Last thing anyone needs it's another pile of Christine Brennan's bigotry. It won't help anything or anyone. Ever.
Sorry, not sorry......... Tonya would have never held it together during that long program if she actually knew. Her subconscious would have sabotaged her, like it did a bit at 91 world's when she realized she could potentially win the whole thing. Think of it this way. On top of the normal pressure of trying to make the Olympic team, you would know that if you messed up and didn't make the team, the felony you were a part of would have been all for nothing. So take the normal pressure of trying to make the Olympic team on live TV and all the nerves that brings, and then multiply it by 10, and also consider that she hadn't really done a strong long program since the 92 olympics. There is simply no way in hell she would have held it together during that long program if she knew. Christine is simply wrong. Sorry, not sorry
Christine Brennan is such a legend.
Porche Field trip
93 us nationals
I DO NOT like this woman
Journalists disgust me.