Leather Shield - Stabbing, Slashing, Smashing tests - Part 4
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2024
- A viewer brought an original instruction for creating a shield covering 'Impenetrable to any edged tool'. I had to try it and after making the shield I finally got to test it with arrows and now 'edged tools' - or more normally swords, daggers, axes etc.
Lets hit the shield with loads of stuff and find out if it really is impenetrable.
Film 1 Making leather shield armour • Making leather shield ...
Film 2 Adjusting the leather shield armour. • Leather shield armour ...
Film 3 Testing the 'Impenetrable' shield with arrows. • "Impenetrable" leather...
Anti armour dagger - Tested with Matt Easton • Testing a medieval ant...
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For those who enjoyed Arrows vs Armour todtodeschini.com
Tod's workshop: come for the crafts, stay for the destruction
Tod's Workshop: He's almost as good at unmaking things as he is at making them
I have my moments
@@knightshousegames Better at making them, the shield was still very much extant by the end! I'm actually shocked that it could have so many punctures and slashes through it, but still remain a single object at the end.
Creation and destruction beling together anyway .
I love that Tod casually tells us both imperial and metric measurements smoothly in quick succession like an absolute chad
Yeah, it's cool he makes his videos accessible to disabled people, as well as people who use Imperial. :)
Funny, but surely the other way round?
As a Fitter and Turner it makes my teeth ache to hear centimetres, urrgh!!cheers Tom
@@thomasfowles7366 As a scientist it makes me die a little inside every time I hear Imperial units.
@@thomasfowles7366it fits better in metrics, how do you measure a millimeter in imperials?
its honestly fascinating to see these sort of experiments
Thanks and it is fascinating doing them
@@tods_workshop im a firm believer that things like this need to be more wide spread, maybe then some historical mysteries wont be mysteries anymore
@@tods_workshopquestion. What would happen if you made the wood of the shield thinner to help compensate for the weight? Would it still be as effective?
@@dakken74 great question
I love that you built a Hussite war flail.
Small detail: Jan Hus and the Hussites. Hus is pronounced Hoos, like goose! Hussites are hoo-sights. Hus is in fact Czech for goose !
It seems that the iron and glass treatment doubles the weight (about 5 pounds to about 11 pounds). If weight is the factor we are trying to optimize, you should compare it with a poplar shield with double-thick planks, to see if the iron and glass treatment gives more protection than simply another layer of wood, and separately apply the iron and glass treatment to a much thinner layer of wood to see if you get comparable performance for less weight.
My thoughts too. Double layers of wood with grains in horizontal position. Seems it would be less work compared to the leather/glass/iron.
That doubling of the weight isn't even with the full shield covered.
@@corwinhyatt519 It is - it's not the actual weight of the shield as it is, it's the weight *it would be* if it was fully covered.
Indeed. Is there a sweet spot where the extra “armor” over thinner wood offers more protection but at the same weight as a regular shield?
If so, is hitting that sweet spot worth the extra labor and materials used?
I suspect it isn’t for mass production, otherwise more shields would have been built that way.
Still, a knight or someone else with the money to spend might have had it done to gain a small but critical advantage.
@@sanityormadness No, it is the weight of the shield as it sits for this test with the three testing sections being of different composition. 1:45 is where he states this. The full shield being set up with the same composition as the red section would be even heavier than the 11.5 lbs stated there.
The Old Norse referred to shields as 'the net of spears.' I guess Tod showed us why.
watching this, lob enough spears and make them too heavy to wield. Net of Spears makes sense.
They did? Source?
From some reason I thought that mail was called that, since it's kind of a net, after all. But it indeed seems to be about a shield.
The source seems to be Snorra Eda and the word is "oddnets" so more literally "point net".
One kenning for mail is "gǫtvar geirrotu" seems it means "clothing/garment of spearrain".
You can also look on the other side of it: modern fencing generally shows a swordsman to have a somewhat marginal advantage over a spearman (each with shields) but that might turn out a lot more significant if the spearhead could get caught up in the opponents shield and leave the spearman open.
It's amazing how much punishment that shield can take. I was sure you would shatter it with the axe after a few blows.
It continually amazes me just how tough they are
Yeah, the handaxe out of everything surprised me. I think it's because that's the one I'm most familiar with, but the situations I encounter it in are made to work in its favor. If you're chopping firewood or branches you're going with the grain, there's no reinforcement to try and hold the wood together, it's what the tool was made for.
it did seem like the axe was going to be the tool that made the shortest work of the shield though!
These real life practical tests really are very interesting. Thank you for showing us how ancient and medieval weapons and armor really worked.
I think that late Medieval and Renaissance shields were some kind of wood/glue/sinew/other stuff composites for most part. Leather was also sometimes used.
In Polish lands at least, pavises and shields were pretty ordinarily made by painters guild (pictores?) not any other one. So applying layers of some sticky stuff that could by applied with a brush was probably integral part of construction.
Providing a pavise or a shield was customary payment for joining a painters guild in Kraków, for example. Those guilds were also involving wood carvers, probably to work both on shields as well as preparing planks for actual painting.
All the way in 1580 Stanisław Sarnicki mentions hussar's shields:
"against lances, they have shields from meaty wood, strenghtened with veins (probably meant sinews, common in 16th century Polish) and glues"
Later, Claudio Ragnoli mentions " some hussars only use lance alone, the hatchet and shield from sturdy wood and dried sinew of great beasts, joined with glue. The shield is so strong, it resists every strong blow of the lance. They use those shields so dexterously, that they disregard every enemy, as if they were entirely clad in armor".
Medieval Crossbow channel has a recipe for very elaborate composite pavise.
ruclips.net/video/G2Rl9DLUfao/видео.html
Great information! And Kraków is one of my favorite cities! ❤ I would recommend a visit to anyone.
very interesting! btw, "In Polish lands at least, pavises and shields were pretty ordinarily made by painters guild (pictores?) not any other one." - "Shield" in Dutch is "Schild", and painting is called "Schilderen" and painters are called "schilderaars" - So yeah, I think what you said might have been pretty much standard across the medieval world perhaps
Please I want Tod to build and test one
@@lotoreo I think that in German sources shield makers are sometimes listed with their own name "schilders" but it seems that in most cases they were grouped with other artists and woodworking trades.
Probably they could form their own guilds in heavily specialized, industrialized South German towns, where there were few towns specializing entirely in making mail, for example. But probably not in Poland, or say, Sweden.
This makes a lot of sense as many paintings were done on wood panels, which would need to be prepared specially for painting on, differently from say pieces of cabinetry.
Then there’s the carpentry/joinery and carving skills needed to make picture frames, again specialized for that purpose even though the techniques would be similar to those used to make cabinetry or other purely decorative (as opposed to structural) woodwork.
I think one of the most interesting things about this test, is just how durable this shield is against all of these attacks. That is even more impressive when you think during combat, you wouldn't really be seeing these nice clean attacks and cuts, its far more likely they'd be coming in at a weaker force or less than ideal angle. Plus the defender would be likely trying to deflect the attack sideways.
Crazy
Amazingly so
Adding on to that, even *if* the attacker managed a blow like one of those in combat, in each case it's completely ineffective at causing a wound in the shield carrier, and in almost every case would result in a disarmed attacker. It's not easy getting any of that out of the shield again.
As you said, you would be unlikely to get those angles in combat, so I don't thinkt he disarming would be that likely, but still more likely than somehow wounding the shield carrier *through* the shield.
axes look pretty damaging against them!
What I find most interesting is the stickiness and general potential for friction. Probably made it a lot easier to bind an opponent’s weapons than modern fencing can demonstrate.
Tod going full "torturerer laying out their tools" on the shield...
Shield: I won't say anything, not even ouch!
This was a bundle of fun to watch! 😆I hope Tod enjoyed himself too.
I think that's a fairly safe bet.
Even if the shield is very tough without the leather, I would definitely want the leather covering the part where my arm is on the back, to prevent penetration into the arm. And then maybe save the weight on the rest of the shield.
Exactly what I was about to suggest. Have it "impenetrable" on that middle section with the grip/armrest, and lighter, but "protective enough" on the rest of the shield. That could maybe cut down the weight down a kilo.
I assume that was a silver sword, because the shield is a monster.
Nice! But actually it was a season two 'brooch' sword
@@tods_workshop which was a beautiful touch and seemed to "fit" with the blade while never being shoved in the viewers face as a "look we did this!!!". Shoved in plenty of monsters faces though.
Absolutely love your experiments with stuff like this. Please do more weird weapons too! Your flail testing videos are some of my favorites.
Got another very weird weapon coming, probably next week
@@tods_workshop can't wait!
Heavy axes are definitely the weapon of choice to produce the most damage.
But as you demonstrated, extracting the weapons from the shield is bloody tough 😂
Exposes the attacker to a counter-attack.
I guess the shield would fare even better if supported by an arm rather than an easel; as the arm could absorb some of the impact by moving.
Thanks for another fun and informative video.
Coming up to 9 minutes, and the shield is still fully functional. Not bad, that!
Edit: Of course, Tod makes the same point a few minutes later.
Fantastic work! I'm thinking, if I'm planning to be fairly immobile and expecting to take lots of arrow hits, I'll take the leather fronted shield. If I want to be mobile, and not expecting lots of arrow hits, I'll take the regular shield.
Also, fantastic work on making the beautiful shields, and showcasing some of the beautiful weapons you make in testing them!
Thanks and a pleasure
I think if you plan to be fairly immobile a tower shield would be a better bet, but a shield like this might have some niche uses
Todd may not be a professional athlete but he has the coolest way of getting in a workout!
Some times you just have to hit things to see how durable they are. Experimental archeology like this is essential to understanding the past. It is also a load of fun.
What are you doing as a job?
Archeologist.
That's boring!
You have no idea HOW boring it is. Sometimes it's literally boring holes in composite materials!
I love this kind of content. Doesn't matter if it's guns or melee weapons. Just show me what it does to a target!
Do you watch Kentucky Ballistics? That channel is all about the impact. 😄😄😄👍
@euansmith3699 I love that channel! Around the time of the 4-Bore I started asking for a Punt Gun video on every episode. The exact video after I purchased one of the energy drinks that sponsored him, he does a video on the Punt Gun. I was so happy, it felt like Christmas came early.
@euansmith3699 high-speed ballistics is another great channel. The video they did on bullets vs glass was so interesting. Tempered glass breaks so fast!
@@dogishappy0 Thanks for that recommendation👍👍👍Slo-mo Guys do some great blowing things to bits videos too.
I think if you wanted to revisit this, the next thing to look into would be shield bosses.
As noted by Matt Easton in a relatively recent video, they seemed to make a comeback in that 14-15th century.
He theorizes that some Heater Shields became boss held due to armor, but my theory after seeing this series is they are a deflecting surface placed on top of where the arm goes, to protect the arm from missiles piercing it like we saw in Part 3 of this series
That might be worth investigating. seeing if arrows deflect off of a shield boss, and if so, how much energy they have when they hit the shield.
Additionally, I think you should look into just putting a strip of that leather facing just across the middle where the arm goes, and face the rest with canvas, with a boss, and see what the weight is compared to the canvas only shield, to see if it is still usable.
This is a really interesting idea. I don’t think the iron-glass mixture is worth adding but even just getting a calculation for how heavy the smaller treated leather strip would add could be very interesting.
@@andrewreynolds4949 If it's the difference between an arrow maybe putting a hole in your doublet vs an arrow an inch deep into your forearm, that feels worth it to me.
My theory is if you just protect the section where your arm is, and leave the rest untreated, anything bouncing off the boss might not even have the energy to penetrate the rawhide and might even just glance off completely, while balancing the weight nicely, since the heaviest part will be attached to you, so the felt weight isn't as bad
@@knightshousegames I'm agreeing with you. It's possibly worth it to protect the arm area with the leather layers, but I doubt the iron-glass mixture does much to be worth the extra effort, just going by the arrow test from earlier. It seems to me the leather is what is making the difference
i was going to say basically the same thing as knightshouse; it would be interesting to see how the weight-to-protection-ratio worked out if you just used the iron+glass treatment in the area where your hand/arm/body would be [behind the shield].
_So putting the iron+glass mix on the leather in something like a square bit in the middle of that heater, which covered approx half the center area of the shield maybe... with the rest of the shield just being wood covered with the standard 1-2 leather-layers
or whatever made the best compromise for protection & mobility (and kept arrows from going so deep they were able to also go through your body armor after the shield perhaps).
RE: andrewR from this video and the brief testing we see here it might seem like that added effort of adding the metal+glass-mix was not worth the time nor extra weight added, but i'd personally want to test the whole idea a lot more. Using different shield types, perhaps combining a small metal boss with partial metal+glass-mix application in key areas etc.
A shield rarely sits still to be struck flat-on at a right-angle (90 degrees ish etc), and it mainly just needs to keep you from getting hit by a few arrows until you can close distance enough that your proximity to the enemy should discourage enemy ranged-weapon-fire for fear of hitting friendlies. In such a case you might carry a 2nd shield or be mostly concerned with how the shield performs in melee, which seemed like the place that the added durability would be most important.
_ _The main problem i'm seeing is not the weight... it's actually what happens if the enemy can use the fact their weapon is stuck in your shield against you to pull your shield out of alignment or physically move you around in such a manner that you are easily dispatched as a result...
so maybe trying a different wood and/or glue might make weapons stick in the shield a bit less?
-just my first thoughts & 2c
@@Dack.howaboutyou I think there will be an issue with weapons/arrows stuck in the spear regardless of the extra layers of protection.
I'm still not convinced the iron/glass mixture is worth the extra work, or that it provides much additional protection, particularly based on the arrow penetration tests in the part 3 video, but the treated leather definitely seems to have a significant effect.
It really goes to show how far you can get with very little in terms of a defensive object like a shield being useful. It doesn't have to be an indestructible object. It just needs to be good enough, and you're already there.
I suppose it's worth remembering that nobody was trying to hit a shield. They were trying to avoid it and hit the man. So however effective a weapon was against a shield, it was really only useful (as you've shown) if it removed the shield from use. JAT. 👍
And of course, you don't need to do it for long. If you just hook the end of your axe behind a shield, you can open it up pretty fast to let someone else use a spear.
@@rianfelis3156 I suspect this type of strategy was what made some battle lines far more successful than others. Working in teams to create that hole in the enemy line. Fighting man to man........your odds are even. I remember hearing somewhere that Roman troops were trained to kill the man in front of the man beside them, not the man in front of them. So as to exploit the gaps in enemy shields(and attention) during the pushing battles when two lines collide. I don't know if that's true but it certainly makes some sort of sense.
banger video and Im super happy there is someone with such a methodical yet functional and entertaining approach doing experimental archeology. Keep it up!
My understanding is that Viking shields kept the wood panels quite thin, then overplayed the leather. That might keep the weight down and allow the hide (and/or glass and iron filings) to become more beneficial. But with this thick chunk of poplar, the laminants don't matter much in comparison.
The archeological ones found have sometimes got thin calfskin/leather or sheepskin coverings, and sometimes nothing but paint, so depending on what you mean by "overplayed" I don't think you're quite right. Leather is very heavy; even adding 2-3 Oz-thickness leather (meaning 1 mm of leather fronting) to a 90cm shield is gonna up the weight by a pound or so.
Thanks Soren, I thoughts they were always covered - is that not so?
So - not a scholar in any way, but - from what I understand the biggest find so far is 30-something shields from a single norwegian ship-grave at Gokstad, and all of those had paint-residue straight on the wood, which presumably means no covering.
But maybe they were just slapped together and painted for the funeral, and not meant for combat? Hard to say. The one found at Trelleborg has apparently been a covered shield, back in the day, according to the Danish National Museum website.
I think there's been some living archaeology-historians in Denmark in recent years, who have definitely popularized the idea that they must've been all covered, because it does tremendously help with their (somewhat flimsy) construction.
But then again - the sagas are full of stories of shield being split and sundered, so maybe flimsy shields were just how things were done.
Okay, you got me with the Witcher sword. Spectacular ending, and a lot of fun from beginning to end!
To be frank, 5 kilos strapped shield doesn't sound all that bad, 4kilos centergripped is manageable in combat, so I'd imagine with the straps, five would be ok ? And to avoid arrows going through your forearm with bits of wood leather and god knows what else at a time where medicine can't really treat infections effectively, I'd probably get the extraweight if I went against longbowmen
If you had the time and resources to train for it, 100% would go for the extra weight
You'd have protection on your arms though as well, and if it's only poking through an inch there is no way it would be able to go through your arm armor
I figure there were probably a lot of people who didn’t have solid plate armor for their forearms. Even if I had mail I think I’d want the extra protection, even if it’s just over the arm strap area.
I generally agree, but this was based on the construction of original 14thC shields and I guess they knew what they were looking for
@@tods_workshop Thank you for your answer ! I'll check your other videos to learn more about this type of shield, I haven't looked at finds yet for shield of this era.
With center gripped, you get the umbo to protect your hand so I had assumed they wouldn't have switched if it made their arms more vulnerable, but perhaps when the heater shield arrived, bows and arrows weren't as prominent as they used to be and that's why they didn't bother ?
I didn't know archaeology had established a common trend in this period's shield weights, I had thought maybe some might have been optimised for dueling and made lighter while others would have been heavier for battle, but if the surviving example share the same weight that's most likely not the case. I guess they just prayed it wouldn't hit the arm rest.
Thanks for your passionating videos and very interesting tests I always learn a lot.
On the weight issue: I suspect people had different shields for different situations, you'd bring your lighter shield on the march where the chances of arrows and combat are slim but never zero, choose the "regular" one for a battle but you'd get out the big heavy boy if you know you'll storm a castle during a siege because there will be projectiles by the ton and lots of very unfriedly defenders up on the ramparts. We know of siege armour, only makes sense that the idea extended to the shield as well.
Interesting test. I think it mostly demonstrates why they would not attack the shield. If you have a weapon with a pointy side and a blunt side, you use the blunt side against the shield so it can't get stuck. And then use the pointy end when you can get past the shield. Because getting your primary weapon stuck in someone else's shield is probably worse than holding a shield with a weapon stuck in it.
Or, a pollaxe could be an excellent weapon against such a shield. The bottom end is useful for knocking the shield about, the hammer or axe good for smashing it
It's been 22 years of whiners telling me "Your reenactment fighting is bogus because you rely on a magic shield that'd disintegrate within a minute of REAL dueling!" Now, thanks to your wonderful video, I can tell the haters to find something else to whine about. Thank you!
I've been waiting for the conclusion of this.
A major historical factor I've learned recently is that wood today may not be the same as it was then. In WW2 America cut down a ton of very old trees for making the stocks of their M1 garands. This wood had an extremely tight grain structure and as a result was significantly tougher than modern versions of the M1 design made with wood that was much younger. People who own original and modern M1s notice that the modern one very easily gets divets, deep scratches, etc. whereas the originals effectively dont get damaged very much from falls and scrapes even though they are made from the same wood type.
finally a video where Tod gets to hit the target every single time!!!! :D
The ending made me laugh. It is funny thinking how they must have dealt with having things stuck in their shields while trying to still be reasonably mobile during battle. I wonder if there was a protocol around that situation. Chuck it away, get fellow soldier to pull it out or just keep going as best as you can with the added things sticking out of it until you can pick up an unencumbered shield to replace it with.
I would like to see if it significantly improved the lifespan of the shield on repeated edge strikes.
Also, i do like the concept of putting the leather jusg over the section your arm is behind because it needs less penetration to harm you in that spot only.
Call me a hopeless romantic, but I so wish it wasn't so rhetorical to ask "why did they do it this way?" when trying to replicate ancient arms and armor.
A big part of what fascinates me about the past, and items likely used by people in the past, is getting inside their heads to see why they did things the way that they did. Why did they persist with things that didn't work? Why did they make the advancements they did, when they did? Seeing the world through their eyes is the truly alluring thing about studying the past.
Keep in mind that, in actual battle, the various weapons won't likely penetrate as far as you had them go. (I know, you're not as massive as a typical Roman warrior.) You have the shield mounted on a fairly substantial backing. The same shield on someone's arm, even an impressive arm, would have a lot more give than when supported on all sides. Makes the simple poplar shield all the more impressive.
Fascinating that this composite armor uses glass beads, exactly like the early ceramic armor of the T-64 (?). I wonder how much it helps over just leather. Surely it would tend to dull the edge coming through and that'd slow it down a lot...but you've demonstrated really well that it's hard to say. Maybe just gluing it to the outside would be lighter?
Anyway, thank you so much for letting us see this kind of thing, it's amazing!
A pleasure and it is interesting how thought streams seem to go over huge lengths of time n- one of the reasons I love history
I love seeing all the comments talking about just reinforcing the arm section. It makes me wonder if this isn't why shields with a metal center boss were invented. Increased speed and maneuverability of shield and maximum hand protection while minimizing added weight for said protection.
Center gripped shields were likely first to be invented, and they were predominantly used throughout most of the history (before widespread use of metal bosses, there were wooden bosses reinforced with various ways).
Shields strapped to the arm were "invented" for most part, in Europe they seem to become popular around 11th, 12th century.
Both types offer some advantages, but center gripped ones were generally way more popular.
As another commenter said, when you are wearing vambraces extra protection over the arm is not required
Shields: do they work? Yes. Yes, they do.
Sure, the leather layers double the weight, but after seeing how well it stops arrows compared to the 'plain' poplar shield, I would say for me personally that it's worth it.
Richard Taylor, in his book on the Greek Phalanx, cites the hoplite shield as 5.5-8kg. Clearly heavier shields were a goer. They lined theirs with inner facing of leather and outer skin of bronze. Seems close to what you're experimenting with.
Good points Thane Max.
This is exactly what i was thinking- maybe putting softer-stuff on the inside would help prevent things from getting stuck in the shield quite as much too (which might avoid the issue of giving your enemy a nice handle they can then grab and use to move you in such a way as to get you killed!).
I know it’s not a direct analogy, as we were overbuilding things to reduce injury, but in the 70s and 80s SCA shields hung on the arm like that were up to 16lbs, and not particularly encumbering.
Again, realizing that the sca is not necessarily historical, (or battleground focused) but in general, we found that among those who intentionally trained to use the shield offensively - the person with heavier shield could leverage more control in a fight.
But this is based on the build of original 14thC shields
Oh absolutely, I am in no way implying that the people in the middle ages did it the same way or even had the same theories about shield usage.
Just saying that (admittedly, from a small sample size) the weight might not have been a particularly limiting concern, vs the cost for example.
If nothing else it shows how really tough poplar is when it's a light weight. The way the wood behaves shows why it was favoured for shields. Battering 7 shades out of it with an entire armoury shows how worthwhile it was to lug a shield about. More than doubling the weight for the extra protection is very debatable as you demonstrated.
I agree, shields are good!
That is a glorious array of weaponry Tod.
Very good points on the weight, but - as you yourself mentioned, you aren't a skilled warrior nor a man of brutish strength. Maybe the iron/glass mix just helps enough against the hardest blows?
Get Matt to hit it with a poleaxe. Get Jason to hit it off horseback. Get Joerg to just bash it to bits. More tests are always welcome. Stellar job so far Tod!
Still a functioning shield after getting hit by 13 different weapons, that's amazing
Really intriguing. But I wonder how resilient an 11.5 pound wood shield would be? It would be twice as thick as the original 5+ pound shield.
Not quite. The 5lb shield is just leather covered poplar. The 11.5lb shield has an added layer of ground glass & iron filings in glue, so that accounts for the extra weight, not thicker wood. That is why you have the 3 different coloured zones on Tod's test shield, with each differently covered over the same thickness wood.
Would it really be too heavy as Tod said? Well if you constantly trained with it you'd get quite used to it, considering that Roman Scutum & Greek Hoplite shields were even heavier.
Thats Aweesome Tod! Would love to test one against Throwing Weapons :D
Thanks Adam and good to see you here. Unless the thrown weapons had significant mass I doubt they would do much
@@tods_workshop Well i think full spin with a war hammer would do something :P and maybe some spear throw ? Cheers Tod awesome test
Axe goes chopchop! Shields really are amazing
I'd love to see a sparth or a gallowglass axe take a chop at it. That extra leverage and narrow head should get in deeper than your felling axe.
Great work as always Tod!
Im not going to be the first to say this im sure, but I think that if weight is the main thing after adding the leather, glue, glass and iron shavings to the shield then maybe just the half tan leather with glue might be the best of the two. but im not someone that makes those things so i have no idea but i do have to say that it would be fun to see a shield with a layer of leather on the face of it then a layer on the back of it were the padding and arm strap is. maybe a thick piece on the face of the shield glued and nailed then a thinner one on the back glued and nailed, could mix it up i guess but i feel that would make for a good shield. might weigh more but hopefully not to much more. Now for what i do have to say is thank you for making this wonderful video Tod, I look forward to many more.
One thing that I think isn't being taken into account here is the angle between the shield and the strike. You are giving these shields their worst possible chance for working by striking head on. Your swing with the falchion that cut diagonally into the wood showed us what I think is more likely to occur in an actual fight. The thickness of the shield is increased by the angle, which causes the sword to have to split more wood before penetrating through the back. In this way, it is similar to tank armor. With a round shield with a central held boss we can see this even more keenly, as the shield would pivot to create a greater angle while providing increased protection over the area a direct hit was likely to occur and where there would be risk of the person being directly behind the shield (hand holding the grip behind the boss).
All this is to say I think your assessment about the more plain poplar shield is correct, as it would be even stronger in actual use than it is mounted on a block for striking. Great video Tod, as always.
That is impresive work, shield!
There is a higher chance for the attacker to become disarmed than doing any real damage. Might explain why those shields are strapped and not held. 🤔 If you only hold it, the guy with the weapon might have more force and tear the shield away from you, but if it's strapped, you can disarm him.
By far the greatest channel on RUclips. Your genuine love for your craft and historical armory is so wholesome and happy. Thank you Tod for letting us join you in your fun!
I'd have thought that if the blade goes in as much as 5 inches, it wouldn't really matter as long as it's away from your arm: if you had a small strip where your am is (like you seem to have on the back) you'd be ok. It's also interesting that some weapons get stuck, that would be a big disadvantage to your attacker.
It would also be interesting to do the same tests with someone (trying to) hold the shield.
Having weapons get stuck could also be an advantage if the attacker was then able to have control of your shield and/or YOU by effectively putting a nice big handle on you that they can grab it in order to move you in such a way that their allies were more easily able to kill you.
_This idea makes me wonder if different types of wood and/or glue might be better able to avoid the "sticking problem". Maybe putting the leather protection later on the inside rather than outside of the shield... and then just canvas/cloth covering the entire thing (for a bit of extra prot. + decoration that would be easily replaced instead of having to re-paint... or maybe repainting would be easier, not sure ;))
I think this would warrant a Part 5:
Iron filings and Glass shards can come in a large variety of forms and slightly bigger pieces could act like sharp force-concentration and spreading points (concentrating the force on the blade-edge while spreading it on the shield). And due to the materials they might very well blunt the edge of a weapon faster than if it was just leather.
So slightly larger junks, maybe a bit thinner leather, and using the same edged weapon several times.
...
And i think nobody would object to more videos of you making and testing shields.
I never leave comments but I really enjoy your videos! Wanted to point out that the ending had me burst to laughter!
I love this channel.
One of the few that I get genuinely excited to learn on through these experiments.
I LOVED castled as a kid and always imagined knights to be undefeatable. It's so cool to think about how they would have to decide between heavy duty and more weight or lighter, more agile...
What do you think about using the leather backing on the shield just around the area your arm sits?
That would seem to make the most sense for weight vs protection, as the only part that would be affected by most of those weapons that you just tested would be your arm on the back (since most of them went less than 25mm deep)
I would love to see a shield build with that section extra protected and the rest just poplar! Or even a modular shield with the middle section permanent/ heavy duty and the top and bottom just replaceable pieces of poplar!
Might be going too deep there, but I think the idea of just the arm being protected with the halftanned leather would be excellent blend of strength and weight!
It's always a pleasure to watch people hitting stuff with great reproduction weapons =)
I've enjoyed watching this shield series.
Love the ending. Put a massive grin on my face, which I needed. Really enjoyed the experimental section too.
I don't know much about historical warfare but it seems getting your weapon, a spear, a dagger or an axe, stuck on the opponent's shield really would be deadly. It's true that it would hinder further use of the shield but you've also just lost your weapon on it.
So if the attacker is unlucky, their weapon gets stuck, they lose it and might even provoke heavy retaliation.
In the case where the shield isn't getting abused and hacked at, truly, the lighter weight shield would be more efficient since it can still block strikes and catch weapons... but to be honest if a spearman was charging at me, I'd be comforted by the idea that I have 2 extra layers of leather between me and the pointy death stick. Perhaps I could even survive against a rain of arrows if I was lucky.
Great work, really thought provoking, though in this case I believe given the choice most combatants would pick the glass and iron file, for the reason you've chosen not to as it's weight doesn't only offer more protection but also adds weight to your push and functions far more efficiently as an offensive weapon. Thanks for the videos Tod!
Tod - suggestion for another test: a double thickness poplar shield vs. the "impenetrable shield" with leather and, glass and iron bits.
The tested shield is slightly more than double the weight of the regular poplar shield. The added layers of leather and glass + iron did make the shield stronger. But for about the same extra weight, how would a poplar shield made twice as thick compare?
Presumably armorers experimented with shields of all different thicknesses and if you wanted more protection than the standard poplar shield, you could simply add layer(s) of wood and dial in the trade off between weight and protection more easily than by adding the leather and extra glass and iron. Further from the arrow test, it looks like the added leather and filings helped, but were far from 2x as strong as the standard shield. So, a double thick poplar shield would likely actually be 2x as strong and a better choice.
Thanks so much for making these videos. Love your content and have bought a dagger from your shop.
I believe it would make a significant difference to start the whole project with the idea of placing leather, glass and iron filings on it rather than fabric and gesso... I doubt the gesso and fabric weigh a ton, but maybe this other construction makes them somewhat superfluous and it shaves off a little extra load. Still, if I am to identify with someone potentially facing arrows, seeing these and previous results, I'm getting to train for the extra weight. Let's not forget, this style of shield is strapped around the neck, it won't just be carried by the arm all the time and if they are this effective it's not detrimental that they stick against your shoulder either: at most, you get scratched or bruised through the armour or padding.
Such an amazing project, still! It is genuinely inspiring to see the vivid curiousity that spurs you to try these things, I honestly wish all research and modern academia took a page from your book. We'd make giant leaps in understanding how their technology actually worked. Thank you so much for your efforts!
I was thrilled about this series of videos about this project. The results are very interesting from a historical point of view and also for creating armour in general. The shield became tougher and would take a lot of more brute force until it breaks. The glued on leather helped the wood fibres to stay together.
The project gave me inspiration and ideas for a body armour project. The lessons learned in that videos were quite usefull.
Each of those strikes that Todd did were under conditions favorable to solid strikes. In a duel or battle stikes tend to be done with less than ideal placement. So in many ways the sheild would work fine without the extra treatments. However it may depend on user preferences. With less penetration you risk letting your opponent come around with the same weapon to strike somewhere else, but with better leverage with a spear your opponent may control where your sheild goes, lining you up for a poke from one of their buddies. This would create a scenario where less pentration is prefeable. The abrasive action of the glass would also where down their weapons in a prolonged battle or campaign.
However, that arrow defence is pretty good. I coulds see that being useful in siege defense. It also seems to make the shield last longer.
So good to see these practical tests. Obviously we know that shields were used historically, we have loads of paintings and tapestries and written accounts along with whatever surviving relics exist. But it's really fascinating to see just HOW useful they were!
yeah, I would have expected that relativly thin wood shield to stop even a spear that good at a frontal assault.
As a boy, I had imagined "Knight's Shields" had been made from solid metal. (It didn't occur to ten-year old me that even adult men might find that much weight rather a lot to carry and parry with over the full course of a battle.) So I felt the shields I cut out from plywood and painted for my youthful games of mediaeval warfare were a bit fake. Who knew they were actually fairly similar in composition to the real deal?
The Witcher's sword conclusion was perfect 👏🤣👏
For the added weight, you could instead have a lot more wood instead. Either a shield with a lot more coverage (to prevent you from taking an arrow to the knee and needing to retire as an adventurer), or a shield that is thicker (and maybe has the grain going the opposite direction). And even at more than double the weight, the coating isn't even covering the entire shield...
Love this stuff Tod, you're doing proper "experimental archaeology" on a personal level from the point of view of the average grunt in the field. A bog standard soldier in whatever era you're talking about, this is the kind of weapons, armor, and equipment they'd be using every day in the field. As a grunt in the US Army back in the 90's, when bored we'd do experiments to see if we could improve what we had been issued, whether it was making MRE's taste like anything OTHER than wet cardboard, or adding a bit of padding to our LBE/plate carriers, to tightening/polishing up the actions on our weapons to make em a tiny bit more accurate and reliable. Soldiers as far back as there have been even semi-organized armies did stuff like this to make their lives a little easier and most importantly SAFER in battle.
This behaviour seems to go back as far as time - thanks
Oh wow. Light Shield, Heavy Shield. +1 armour class, +2 armour class. D&D had it right all along.
This was too much fun too watch, honestly need more of these crazy destruction Tod videos.
Its so impressive how well they survive, it has so many holes in it, its been beat to shit, but its still functional until a spear gets stuck in it. I'd be really curious to see how you make these shields and what steps (removing the canvas, leather, etc) matter in this indestructibility.
See the earlier videos in this series, particularly
“Making leather armor impenetrable part 1”
And
“Making leather armor part 2”.
To summarize, the yellow section is a normal wooden shield. The orange and red areas have a layer of leather boiled with a glue mixture which makes it stiff and very hard. Only under the red section leather he added a mixture of iron filings and glass, as per an old recipe he found.
One big point that stands out to me is the fact that even if you have a few centimeters deep in the shield, getting it out is extremely hard by itself. In a pitched battle, angles are going to be weird and the force behind the hit would be less than ideal, but if you manage to cleave a shield I don't think you would be able to get it back which it is obviously is very bad for the attacker, I mean, you won't have a chance to put your feet in the shield and pull with all your weight, I do see the opportunity to use that as an advantage to disarm enemies and expose them to my own weapons.
In a shield wall scenario specifically, I do see this as a tactic to disarm the enemy's spears and whatnot, so I would definitively avoid lunging my spear so hard that it'd get stuck in an enemy shield, that would be a disaster since 1 hand is clearly not enough to get the thing out, and my opponents know this, they have mechanical advantage over me.
To me this is a major factor as to why battles went out for hours of people just yelling and throwing things rather than actual melee, poking lightly until you can aim to the face or exposed areas, occasionally making a strong push if there was an opening or a breakthrough in the battle (usually flanks and such), shields were actually OP and it comes with no surprise since it took thousands of years until armor became the next OP thing.
just came about heraring the Odyssey as recording. At some point it was explicitely statet, some attacked warrior held his shield widely away from his body in anticipation of a spear to be thrown at him... So he know it would penetrate even >2 centuries ago.
Also, if you hit a shield not firmly pressed against a wall, it will give way and at some significant energy will go into bending your arm - lost for penetrating the shield. So i suggest a shield suspended at springs to simulate that instead fixing it to a fix wall.
You can stop any arrow with a simple silk fabric sheet when it can give way and "anihilate" energy for a good distance... So the yielding might have significant effect.
The movement certainly would have a massive effect, but I was trying to favour the weapons here and put the shield in the worst possible situation
What I find really interesting is how many of the anti-armour weapons get stuck in the shield on the first heavy blow in a way that in combat would probably force one to draw another weapon. Obviously one would probably try to avoid it and not just hammer in a blow like that into the middle of a shield, but it still can happen. The Falchion did seem to have that trouble, which despite it not damaging the shield that much, could have been a desirable trait.
I love those videos!
That shield took so many blows and was still in good working order.
You can see why they opted for those special arrows and darts (pilum etc.) to render them unusable, rather than penetrate / destroy them.
I love the heater shield shape / size too, perfect balance between protection and manoeuvrability.
Really enjoyed watching Tod hack away at the shield. Twas much, much more durable than i would have gueßed
It's worth bearing in min actually that this is pretty much the perfect setting to see penetration of the shield, i.e. when it is held in place against a solid backing. If there was any kind of give, say the natural movement of an arm, you'd expect to see much less penetration even with the spears and arrows that were succeeding. Of course also some degree of active use of the shield against an edged weapon to intercept blows early would significantly reduce their effectiveness. A regular poplar shield could, in the right hands, be damn near impenetrable.
So it seems - agreed on all points
It'd be great to see a halberd or poleaxe, both the axehead and the pick. I can imagine that the pick, with the additional leverage of a two-handed swing, would penetrate nicely. It'd also be neat to see if a _manageable_ flail can really hook far enough over the rim to hurt the hand!
With either shield's construction (poplar) I'd imagine it'd be more of a hindrance to the attacker than a help: with one mighty swing they've effectively deprived themselves of (prolly) their main weapon due to it hanging up.. & thus putting themselves at a severe disadvantage to boot, even momentarily - not something one should be attempting to do in battle! :)
@@snafu2350 Yes, probably. But they would have a 6 foot lever attached to something that's strapped to the other guy's arm. (Don't do it against a boss shield tho) The other guy does have his main hand free to either retaliate or slash off the straps, but leather isn't easy to cut. I imagine I'd briefly try to use it to break his arm or trip him to the ground, but if not immediately successful I would have to scramble for my sidearm.
the fairly rigid mounting of the shield to the target gives you a 'worst case' scenario for shield penetration. One held/worn will inevitably fare better as the user is absorbing some of the impact. The rigid structure of the target means all the force is going into the shield with little chance of glancing. Still useful to test this way, so long as you account for it.
Amazingly resilient, didn’t expect it to do so well vs axes
The sticking think can also be a plus, if you using something at a melee and is gets stuck in a cut or a stab, the stabber or cutter is effectively disarmed. Highlanders used studded wooden shields for this reason. Pikes and bayonet points would stick to them. Binding has it's positives.
8:00 Tod getting good with editing. That was some nice comedic timing. ^^
Thanks
It would be interesting to see if the basic pavise construction offers more arrow protection compared to the heater. After all it was what it was designed to do and the weight wouldn't be that much of an issue.
I am sure it would because as I understand it they were substantially thicker and often covered and as you say, weight was less of an issue
@tods_workshop I wonder if the recipe with the leather, iron and glass bits could be for some similar type of "siege" shield and not intended for normal field use...
Quality content as always !!
I think you may be over concerned about the weight of the "proof" shield. Now disclaimer, my experience with shields comes from combat in the Society for Creative Anachronism, but while this type of combat is not a really authentic recreation of medieval combat, it can give us some data for comparison.
Back in my first time fighting in the SCA, back in the 1980s, most of our shields weighed in excess of 10 pounds (and some groups even had rules that required a certain weight per square inch, on the mistaken belief that "period" shields were heavier than they were). I myself carried a 24 in by 36 in heater shield that weighed in at 17 pounds. (I'm 70 now and my shield is both smaller and lighter).
Neither I nor most of my compatriots were in training as professional warriors. Most of us were hobbyists (weekend warriors). And yet, we could carry these shields for long periods of time. I believe that one can reasonably infer that professional soldiers could do so much easier. And unless one was wearing "proof" armor (in which one would not need a shield at all), it would have made sense to have the best anti-arrow protection that one could reasonably carry.
At least, that's my thoughts.
Loved the video but that bloody Jumpscare at the end really got me good.
So, the advertising turned out to be TRUE. What a shocker, heh.
And it is extremely likely that the recipe and its application can be optimised more. So, this basically provides a "stronger" shield option.
Which would absolutely be an advantage in some situations.
Only real question remaining, how often was it used?
For example, it might be a good option for "friendly" tournaments. Where the extra weight is just a hazzle rather than a serious problem.
I wouldn't be too concerned with weight. One of the things that crop up in late 16th C military manuals like those written by Robert Barret and William Garrard is the use of heavier 'targets of proof' as opposed to lighter ones or 'venetian targets' made of leather. Such heavier shields whilst not commonly used still had their place for providing additional protection at the front of a pike block and attacking a breach or mine alongside other roles for which short weapons were seen as being more useful in than pikes.
While the 16th C is not the 14th or 15th, there is still some relevancy. A footsoldier being raked by heavy longbow or crossbow fire may value a heavier shield over a lighter one to cover any perceived deficiencies in their armour not unlike our 16th C targeteer storming a breach; two shields is by far cheaper than buying a new harness to replace an old one of less sturdy construction. A crossbowman's pavise certainly would benefit from the greater protection; if Crecy is any indication, they weren't in the practice of personally lugging them about on the march making the additional weight negligible.
Probably the best ending you've done to a vid Mr Tod. 🤣
Another thing to consider is how often you will receive full on hits from an opponent during combat. Most contact would be glancing blows at best.
To my way of thinking, freezing the weapon(s) up would give at least a momentary advantage. Then you come up, down, or across with your weapon.
One could reinforce the area of the holder, where the arm carries the shield, it with the double leather and the powder layer. That would probably raise the weight of the shield to a little over three kilos, but not reach 5.2 kilos. A compromise? The arm would be relatively well protected and the penetrating arrowheads elsewhere would not be long enough to attack the body.
Can you try the rondel and the spear on the orange part? I wonder if 1 layer is already enough or if the filings and glass really make such a difference.
I believe an extra layer might make sense over the area where your arm goes and maybe around the edge, but not everywhere. I agree with you that shields themselves are already pretty strong.
you could achieve something similar by just adding more padding or even a bit of metal behind the shield. but it would take significantly less time and effort