The day time games at Encore are interesting to say the least. Because of the high hand promotion, so many players limp strong hands like QQ so they don’t scare away other players and so they can hit a high hand. It’s tough to navigate sometimes.
@@OneEyedJack01 a simple concept once it’s explained to you but one I think a lot of beginner players miss. I recall frequently checking behind on the river when I was new to the game, having the better hand and thinking “ugh I should have bet!” Even when my “better hand” was bottom pair and villain had a busted flush draw.
Hate this value bet so much. I think it's wildly awful. Just because he should maybe continue betting A8 or K8 doesn't mean he will - 2/5 players don't go thin enough at all. I think plenty of players will let go of 98 and T8 at least some of the time, but are always calling better 8s. I think you're value owning yourself SO much more than you're getting paid by worse. Also, to your point on the river, I'd always bet here with thick value. It's a more consistent bluff line so more likely to get called light and virtually nothing should call your raise that isn't an absurd value hand as well (like he can't really ever just have a 4).
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj it sounded like the caller was just tossing that out after the fact. He stated he didn't think through the bet. He made it because he thought J8 was winning. He didn't consider what worse hands could call before making the bet. It was a thoughtless bet and I think the caller understands that now.
Check this back. Check raise on the river at 2/5 is rarely if ever a bluff. I don't believe him. I will watch entire hand before commenting in future, sorry about that. Good lay down😊
This is EXACTLY how people play in my poker room. Maybe 25% of the time they're bluffing a hand like 55 because they know they're blocking straights. But at least 75% they are showing up with a hand like 99, 87, A8, or K8.
55 makes a lot of sense. V range betting but realized it didnt work out because Hero is just calling down, but then hero's wannabe value bet is so absurd that villain realized he can still have all the nutted hands and Hero almost never can so he went for it, wp by villain.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj exactly, thats why he bet, because it hits his range just as much as anyone else's, so he's just trying to take it down now before 20+ overcards hit.
@@ticenits1926 that kind of makes sense on the flop even though it's bad but on the turn it's so fucking bad. If he said 76s, 75s i would believe that and i would do it with those two hands. I would do it with 55/66 as well but i never bet the flop let alone the turn with those 2 hands.
If villain is pulling the rare river check raise bluff, 500 is way too big. He probably just needs to go 280. If villain is solid, competent player, it can’t be a bluff.
I don't know. I've played in quite a few games that had button straddling, never really noticed it negatively affecting the game, even if it was only 1 or 2 guys doing it.
Is it plus ev if we start bluffing on the turn against a small size . J8 is almost always behind here even if a J hits u still dont know if ur hand is good. So raising turn followed by a reasonable bet on river might be better than a call. Is this worth the risk in this limped pot?
i guessed 55 or 66. picks up a gut shot on the turn and blocks the 56 straight. these guys are crazy and the two calls indicate hero has a medium strength hand. should not have bet the river.
I don’t understand Bart nor the peanut gallery all insisting there’s no way villain had 55. Lying about 55 doesn’t even make sense. If he’s lying he may say pocket 99, A4, A5, A3 or something depending on his goal with lying. Agree with you - 55 and 66 make a ton of sense. Tiny flop and turn bets by villain. Checks river when gutter misses. Smells a middling bet by hero. Hero def doesn’t have anything nutted. This is a four way limped pot junk hand. Turns 55 into a bluff. Having straight blockers is nice but not necessary for villain to have to make this raise cuz hero’s cards may as have well have been face up. If there was ever a spot to check raise bluff, it’s right here.
@@timbok83well if they play often and he had super thick value and comes into contact with hero again next time hero has thin value he calls his nutted hands with no chance to win ?. It's poker of course I lied Phil
People who bet thin on river are sometimes weak (as in this case with single paired hand and medium kicker at best) you can get to fold if you show a lot of aggression. It's also not uncommon to see people check/raise large like this when they have a HUGE hand because they want it to look like they're bluffing. Either way, it's a fold for sure.
Correct responses to “how are you”, “I’m good” “Im doing well” Incorrect responses “I’m well” - you’re not a hole in the ground which people obtain water “I’m doing good” - show me the proof. What good are you doing in this world
It’s not bad bet on the turn because people don’t raise enough. He got to chase a gutter and charge straight draws for a small price. He’s not playing against GTO. He’s allowed to play exploitative because his opponents are bad.
@@PurpleLions except he's bad? So who's he exploiting? He got called by better and there's no indication whatsoever he was going to get called by worse.
@@PurpleLions If Villain is betting a gut shot on the turn, a 3 barrel is mandatory on the river when it bricks. A villain aggressive enough to bet the turn into 2 people with a gut shot isn't going to stop betting on the river when he is double blocking the straight.
@@OneEyedJack01 His hand is too bad to call a bet with so it's a merge bet. He may fold out a 7x. He may get called by 2x or 4x that doesn't want to fold for the sizing or also has a gutter. He never has to worry about getting raised by draws because the live players in this game probably don't raise draws or nothingburgers. Then on the river, he doesn't know if he's ahead or not, until his opponent makes a super weak bet so he raises him off. If you're playing against a table of bad players you can make bad, non-sense plays and nobody will take advantage of you.
Villain's line makes no sense on river. Any hand that he would assume hero would bet the river with would probably raise off on the turn to rhe $50 sizing. It is far more likely that hero's small river sizing telegraphed the strength of his marginal holding and induced a bluff raise from a missed draw like 9 10. Sure Villain could have been trapping, but typically river check raises for value make sense when the person OOP is calling a turn bet, rather when they are the aggressor themselves. This is even more relevant when there is not a front door flush draw that misses. The check raise sizing is also pretty large and given hero's hand looks exactly like what it is, an 8, wouldn't villain try to give that type of holding a better price like $350ish? In poker, we should alwsys try to figure out what our opponent wants us to do and do the opposite. In this scenario given all this information, it looks like he wants a fold. Any moee in depth examination just opens us up to out-leveling ourself. I would call given that i dont even think a straight is taking that raise sizing on a paired board. If he has 22 or 77 so be it.
I believe him. The villian probably thought the hero was capped with two straight calls. The villian was double blocking a straight. He probably figured he had no chance to win against a river bet, so he went for the bluff. It's quite creative
Your explanation makes no sense. If Villain thought that Hero was on a straight draw and he had 55, he would just call. 55 is winning. The only reason to check-raise is for value or as a bluff.
@OneEyedJack01 the villian put the hero on one pair. Probably had him on Ace 8 at best. Most people aren't going to call a river raise in a limped pot with a naked 8.
Raise the flop. Squeeze the good player out and try to get it HU vs the co. I know it seems crazy with a middle strength hand but put yourself in his shoes and think how uncomfortable it would make you. Even with the two combos of 78 I’d be worried about the 3 combos of 22 if I were MP. N that’s the top of range most of the range just insta folds or calls w a draw.
BART you’re completely off base when you say V could never have 55 here.. he bet the flop because he is a loose/splashy player. He bet the turn bc he picked up straight outs. He check-raised the river 150% pot bc players love using “blockers” as bluffs nowadays, even if the line doesn’t make sense. Clearly, you’d want to use blockers to a full house for that type of river check-raise size, but do you think population thinks the same way you do? Bart you have to get into the minds of low-stakes live players and remember not to apply your poker knowledge to their reasoning.
Yes I think Bart is off-base here.. the guy picked up a straight draw on the turn (also had set outs), that’s why he continued betting. Also the raise size on the river is highly indicative of a bluff or strong value. He made it 1.5X pot. People love using “blockers” to bluff nowadays even if it doesn’t make sense with their line.
You don't have a bet/call range betting $85 on the river, so you probably shouldn't do it. If you bet 2/3 pot or pot you absolutely have a bet/call range.
If button straddle is almost always on why not just UTG straddle. Had a player recently sit down at our table when we were mandatory UTG straddle and he refused (his decision so no hard feelings) but he then put on the button straddle. Like wtf
i don't think betting J8 is bad here, but the size is. if you are playing against a villain who is capable of checkraising the river here as a bluff, it isn't worth betting 25% pot in position. bet 2/3 pot or check back.
Yea I think that's the best play. I am not the best player but I don't really understand what betting so little accomplishes here; what are you really getting called by? Maybe like pocket 5s lol
@@doomtroupe yeah, i guess something like 89, A7, or 66. bart seems surprised that 55 bets twice into two people, but i feel like you see this type of play in limped pots every day at low stakes. villain picks up a gutshot on the turn and "sets his price" against two players, then checks his showdown value on the river. kudos to him for sensing weakness on the river and going for it.
@@josephkatz2704 I play 1/2 in mn where they only have spread limit holdem so I am only speaking to that. I have certainly seen people play this way in similar pots with 5s all the way down to 2s. With the people I play too its completely possible they would've played this way with a set so a pair of 8s would've been no good by the river. This is why with J8 I would literally never bet here last to act because the value is so incredibly thin
i agree with your bet sizing, but J8 isn't strong enough to bet 2/3 on the river. There just aren't enough worse hands that will call. Hero has a medium strength hand. Check back and take the equity.
@@OneEyedJack01 you are probably right. it just feels like villain played his hand extremely face up until the checkraise and J8 is good basically 100% of the time here, so i understand the temptation to bet.
Anyone else just folding flop? MP should be pretty strong betting into this many players. CO is loose but can still have us crushed. Two players left to act… Yeah I’m just getting out the way here.
I did not think the flop call was terrible, just marginal. But the turn call was awful. Biggest problem is that it's so hard for hero to improve & when he does the jack brings in T9.
@@EllieBanks333yeah I’m not saying the flop call is bad. I’m saying I personally would get out the way having only invested my $10 straddle. I just hate limped pots tbh 😂
I am raising flop. Raise to $60. V could had A7, 89, 68, 54, 9T...tonnes of hands that are less. Calling flop is a grave mistake. b/c you just put yourself in the inferior position and keep V in the superior position. I could not afford myself that weak play. And then , thanks to this, I could even force stronger pair of 8 to fold (Q8, K8, A8).
If villain had a set or straight on the turn, wouldn't he have to bet larger? It just doesn't make any sense why he would bet smaller on the turn in relation to the pot if he had two pair or better and then risk not getting any more value by checking the river. I feel like the majority of these calls are just two people in a hand that both have massively misplayed.
I think the villain had either 56 or 44 and more likely quads and went for craziness to try and get called by hero .. there is no chance someone is risking 75% of their stack to win peanuts
17:18 why betting here? Who's gonna call you? Not a weakerr hand, for sure. . 17:27 V r to $500!! GRRRREAT! I love this move. Now what?? Damn if you call, damn if you fold. Damned, anyway! I don't thunk it's a bluff...therefore fold that weak hand anyway.
The J is not a clean out if it comes as T9 got there too. Check back river 100%. Your bet induced the raise he put you on draw I bet. Now you have to fold a hand that had showdown value.
Can you talk more about the single straddle guy killing the game? I dislike straddles as a whole. I’m not sure I understand the logic of how it will kill the game though.
I think, realistically, this guy could be telling the truth. In his eyes he has a draw that busted and he's making a bluff, regardless of how little sense it makes. He's a losing player, remember him, don't make thin value bets quite this thin against him, and you'll be fine.
I’ve played countless hours in that room it’s easy action,that guy is lying especially w the perceived image. People in Tunica are crazy I lived in Vegas for many years and those games were soft after about noon early morning OMC’s for the most part. Tunica is ripe for the pickins
In a limped pot, i can see 55 playing like this. V knkws H doesn't have a boat (he checked option pre, never w 88 or 77). Hs bets says value not bluff (would you bet 910 this size on river??) So 55 is beat, and H has 8x most likely and 8x is likely folding. So he checks 55. Pot bet he folds, check back he beats draws, small value bet he raises. Not saying its right or wrong, but is see this type of play regularly. Thats why you check back your marginal hand on the river.
Villain was playing the player. He thought he was making block bets, until hero totally caps himself with the 85, probably combined with a tell. Then villain just plays the player and makes it impossible to call. It wasn't a huge pot, and it wasn't going to become one. Take the free showdown with your very marginal value hand that isn't getting paid by worse very often.
Anybody else think raising the flop is a good idea? Likely gets it heads up and gives you the betting lead. MP might fold a better 8 or call with a straight draw. And if CO is so loose, he might call again with a bad hand.
Totally believe he had 55 there, he picks up straight equity on turn plus could still be ahead so he bets again, river comes he checks, sees you do you’re small value bet which you admittedly have been doing a lot and obviously have mostly one pair type hands and he decides to push you off it. Plus if he were lying about it, 55 is such a random hand to say you had. You got bluffed outta your socks
He could have had a number of airball bluffs. The action pre was bet call ....... so 55 and all middling 9 through 4 hands are possible. It was huge multiway.
I'm on the river here and hero is value betting. This seems like a mistake to me - villain was betting flop and turn into multiple players, which is somewhat polarizing already. Villain is going to have whiffed draws, or better value. The whiffs mostly fold while better calls, and we lose. Even worse, some of villain's missed draws will check raise us on the river, putting us in a terrible spot with a marginal top pair. One of the big differences I see between good players and recreational players is that good players find more thin value, but this seems too thin to me, and will backfire. There just aren't enough hands we're beating that will call a bet.
...and there it is. What an awful spot to get check-raised for such a large amount. If villain is hand reading, hero has played the hand in a way that makes it pretty clear that he has a marginal pair. I'm guessing solvers will tell us to fold often, but we're going to have to call sometimes with our top pair. Nasty.
In the intro you guys talked about Tunica's rich PLO history and how it's the only place it was played on a regular basis. Given this background, I could believe the villain. In PLO, turning 55 into a bluff (representing the nut straight which you're double blocking) on that turn is a pretty common play. You can get a lot of folds from hands that aren't the nuts and can't draw to the nuts. (Obviously, this doesn't translate well to NLH because you're not getting as many folds from medium-strength hands). As for the river - villain's check makes sense because the board paired. But hero's tiny bet makes villain believe that hero doesn't have a boat; and villain check-raises hoping to get hero off of anything worse than a straight.
![Cody Johnson - I'm Gonna Love You (with Carrie Underwood) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yy9PuYMU29g/mqdefault.jpg)
OF COURSE I'M LYING PHIL, IT'S POKER!
The day time games at Encore are interesting to say the least. Because of the high hand promotion, so many players limp strong hands like QQ so they don’t scare away other players and so they can hit a high hand. It’s tough to navigate sometimes.
(24:10) 🤣"Mike Postle-esque"🤣 Bart Hanson...wordsmith!
How the hell do you bet the river with this hand 😂😂 shoulda taken the free showdown
That thin value gets you bluffed and crushed a lot.
Opening up the betting again from IP on the river needs a really good reason. 85$ is not one of them.
I think this is just a check back on the river. Ace eight is a bet. Any worse eight is just a check back.
100%. You should never bet just because you think you have the best hand. You always have to consider what worse hands will call your bet.
@@OneEyedJack01 a simple concept once it’s explained to you but one I think a lot of beginner players miss.
I recall frequently checking behind on the river when I was new to the game, having the better hand and thinking “ugh I should have bet!” Even when my “better hand” was bottom pair and villain had a busted flush draw.
agree dont be out played at the river.. ...
Insane trying to get thin value.
I think even villain realized this and gotta respect his bluff
Hate this value bet so much. I think it's wildly awful. Just because he should maybe continue betting A8 or K8 doesn't mean he will - 2/5 players don't go thin enough at all. I think plenty of players will let go of 98 and T8 at least some of the time, but are always calling better 8s. I think you're value owning yourself SO much more than you're getting paid by worse.
Also, to your point on the river, I'd always bet here with thick value. It's a more consistent bluff line so more likely to get called light and virtually nothing should call your raise that isn't an absurd value hand as well (like he can't really ever just have a 4).
At 16:54 this guy was suggesting getting called by a 7 so either this game is the loosest game ever or he’s out of his mind.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj a 7 betting the turn there is egregious and calling on the river would be so hilariously bad.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj it sounded like the caller was just tossing that out after the fact. He stated he didn't think through the bet. He made it because he thought J8 was winning. He didn't consider what worse hands could call before making the bet. It was a thoughtless bet and I think the caller understands that now.
It’s a hood induce
@@justinhart7172 have fun getting it all in with one pair when there are probably some bluffs that beat you and you beat literally no value.
Check this back. Check raise on the river at 2/5 is rarely if ever a bluff. I don't believe him. I will watch entire hand before commenting in future, sorry about that. Good lay down😊
This is EXACTLY how people play in my poker room. Maybe 25% of the time they're bluffing a hand like 55 because they know they're blocking straights. But at least 75% they are showing up with a hand like 99, 87, A8, or K8.
The river is a check back. Hero wins.
You said you were regularly raising thin value, you created a pattern. He would check raise any set now full house or overpair
Or straight or quads
55 would be weird. Even 72 makes more sense.
55 makes a lot of sense. V range betting but realized it didnt work out because Hero is just calling down, but then hero's wannabe value bet is so absurd that villain realized he can still have all the nutted hands and Hero almost never can so he went for it, wp by villain.
@@ticenits1926range betting? What does that even mean in a limped pot? Surely everyone has pretty much the same range?
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj exactly, thats why he bet, because it hits his range just as much as anyone else's, so he's just trying to take it down now before 20+ overcards hit.
I can't remember, was this a 4-way or 5-way flop? "Range betting"@@ticenits1926
@@ticenits1926 that kind of makes sense on the flop even though it's bad but on the turn it's so fucking bad. If he said 76s, 75s i would believe that and i would do it with those two hands. I would do it with 55/66 as well but i never bet the flop let alone the turn with those 2 hands.
If villain is pulling the rare river check raise bluff, 500 is way too big. He probably just needs to go 280. If villain is solid, competent player, it can’t be a bluff.
Full house is the only hand that check raises for value. He has 77 or 22 here a lot.
postive.
100%, without seeing the results I’d say this is 22 almost always.
Straight and quads also do all this same stuff
No they don't 🤡@@dwayneb72
I don't know. I've played in quite a few games that had button straddling, never really noticed it negatively affecting the game, even if it was only 1 or 2 guys doing it.
Is it plus ev if we start bluffing on the turn against a small size . J8 is almost always behind here even if a J hits u still dont know if ur hand is good. So raising turn followed by a reasonable bet on river might be better than a call. Is this worth the risk in this limped pot?
Any 8 or good 7 is a bluff catcher. So I’m sizing my river bet to look like a bluff. $190 on the river is gonna get looked up often enough.
i guessed 55 or 66. picks up a gut shot on the turn and blocks the 56 straight. these guys are crazy and the two calls indicate hero has a medium strength hand. should not have bet the river.
I don’t understand Bart nor the peanut gallery all insisting there’s no way villain had 55. Lying about 55 doesn’t even make sense. If he’s lying he may say pocket 99, A4, A5, A3 or something depending on his goal with lying.
Agree with you - 55 and 66 make a ton of sense. Tiny flop and turn bets by villain. Checks river when gutter misses. Smells a middling bet by hero. Hero def doesn’t have anything nutted. This is a four way limped pot junk hand. Turns 55 into a bluff. Having straight blockers is nice but not necessary for villain to have to make this raise cuz hero’s cards may as have well have been face up. If there was ever a spot to check raise bluff, it’s right here.
@@timbok83well if they play often and he had super thick value and comes into contact with hero again next time hero has thin value he calls his nutted hands with no chance to win ?. It's poker of course I lied Phil
People who bet thin on river are sometimes weak (as in this case with single paired hand and medium kicker at best) you can get to fold if you show a lot of aggression. It's also not uncommon to see people check/raise large like this when they have a HUGE hand because they want it to look like they're bluffing. Either way, it's a fold for sure.
Correct responses to “how are you”,
“I’m good”
“Im doing well”
Incorrect responses
“I’m well” - you’re not a hole in the ground which people obtain water
“I’m doing good” - show me the proof. What good are you doing in this world
actually... 5/5 or 6/6 is EXACTLY the hand I would have put them on.
Why? That would be an absolutely terrible line preflop and on the flop, but close to the worst bet in history on the turn.
It’s not bad bet on the turn because people don’t raise enough. He got to chase a gutter and charge straight draws for a small price. He’s not playing against GTO. He’s allowed to play exploitative because his opponents are bad.
@@PurpleLions except he's bad? So who's he exploiting? He got called by better and there's no indication whatsoever he was going to get called by worse.
@@PurpleLions If Villain is betting a gut shot on the turn, a 3 barrel is mandatory on the river when it bricks. A villain aggressive enough to bet the turn into 2 people with a gut shot isn't going to stop betting on the river when he is double blocking the straight.
@@OneEyedJack01 His hand is too bad to call a bet with so it's a merge bet. He may fold out a 7x. He may get called by 2x or 4x that doesn't want to fold for the sizing or also has a gutter. He never has to worry about getting raised by draws because the live players in this game probably don't raise draws or nothingburgers. Then on the river, he doesn't know if he's ahead or not, until his opponent makes a super weak bet so he raises him off. If you're playing against a table of bad players you can make bad, non-sense plays and nobody will take advantage of you.
Villain's line makes no sense on river. Any hand that he would assume hero would bet the river with would probably raise off on the turn to rhe $50 sizing. It is far more likely that hero's small river sizing telegraphed the strength of his marginal holding and induced a bluff raise from a missed draw like 9 10. Sure Villain could have been trapping, but typically river check raises for value make sense when the person OOP is calling a turn bet, rather when they are the aggressor themselves. This is even more relevant when there is not a front door flush draw that misses.
The check raise sizing is also pretty large and given hero's hand looks exactly like what it is, an 8, wouldn't villain try to give that type of holding a better price like $350ish? In poker, we should alwsys try to figure out what our opponent wants us to do and do the opposite. In this scenario given all this information, it looks like he wants a fold. Any moee in depth examination just opens us up to out-leveling ourself. I would call given that i dont even think a straight is taking that raise sizing on a paired board. If he has 22 or 77 so be it.
I believe him. The villian probably thought the hero was capped with two straight calls. The villian was double blocking a straight. He probably figured he had no chance to win against a river bet, so he went for the bluff. It's quite creative
Your explanation makes no sense. If Villain thought that Hero was on a straight draw and he had 55, he would just call. 55 is winning. The only reason to check-raise is for value or as a bluff.
@OneEyedJack01 the villian put the hero on one pair. Probably had him on Ace 8 at best. Most people aren't going to call a river raise in a limped pot with a naked 8.
@@OneEyedJack01 two flat calls.
I mean, it'd take a wildly creative player to make a check-raise bluff in this spot.
I want to put this in my Tunica location.
Nuff said
He had 56…
I actually believe the villain. Bart is out of touch w what players do
Says the guy who's a losing player
Says the guy who’s a winning player
@@justinhart7172 cool
Raise the flop. Squeeze the good player out and try to get it HU vs the co. I know it seems crazy with a middle strength hand but put yourself in his shoes and think how uncomfortable it would make you. Even with the two combos of 78 I’d be worried about the 3 combos of 22 if I were MP. N that’s the top of range most of the range just insta folds or calls w a draw.
BART you’re completely off base when you say V could never have 55 here.. he bet the flop because he is a loose/splashy player. He bet the turn bc he picked up straight outs. He check-raised the river 150% pot bc players love using “blockers” as bluffs nowadays, even if the line doesn’t make sense. Clearly, you’d want to use blockers to a full house for that type of river check-raise size, but do you think population thinks the same way you do?
Bart you have to get into the minds of low-stakes live players and remember not to apply your poker knowledge to their reasoning.
46, 45, and 56 are all in my mind
never mind not 8 7 after the check raise
He probably did have 55
Yes I think Bart is off-base here.. the guy picked up a straight draw on the turn (also had set outs), that’s why he continued betting.
Also the raise size on the river is highly indicative of a bluff or strong value. He made it 1.5X pot.
People love using “blockers” to bluff nowadays even if it doesn’t make sense with their line.
HBK plays poker now?
You don't have a bet/call range betting $85 on the river, so you probably shouldn't do it. If you bet 2/3 pot or pot you absolutely have a bet/call range.
where is a game of PLO that isn’t loose? 😂
He had either 44 or 56
I LOVE PLO.
People are so bad at poker 😂
#TooThin I can't imagine what hand would call you.
That would bet two streets into other players.
why can’t be 56?
If I’m betting river for value, I’m going very very small like $50 or very big like pot to rep a missed draw, to get called by worse 8 or even a 7.
If button straddle is almost always on why not just UTG straddle. Had a player recently sit down at our table when we were mandatory UTG straddle and he refused (his decision so no hard feelings) but he then put on the button straddle. Like wtf
Because it's much better to put money in blind in position as opposed to out of position? This should be self-evident.
i don't think betting J8 is bad here, but the size is. if you are playing against a villain who is capable of checkraising the river here as a bluff, it isn't worth betting 25% pot in position. bet 2/3 pot or check back.
Yea I think that's the best play. I am not the best player but I don't really understand what betting so little accomplishes here; what are you really getting called by? Maybe like pocket 5s lol
@@doomtroupe yeah, i guess something like 89, A7, or 66. bart seems surprised that 55 bets twice into two people, but i feel like you see this type of play in limped pots every day at low stakes. villain picks up a gutshot on the turn and "sets his price" against two players, then checks his showdown value on the river. kudos to him for sensing weakness on the river and going for it.
@@josephkatz2704 I play 1/2 in mn where they only have spread limit holdem so I am only speaking to that. I have certainly seen people play this way in similar pots with 5s all the way down to 2s. With the people I play too its completely possible they would've played this way with a set so a pair of 8s would've been no good by the river. This is why with J8 I would literally never bet here last to act because the value is so incredibly thin
i agree with your bet sizing, but J8 isn't strong enough to bet 2/3 on the river. There just aren't enough worse hands that will call. Hero has a medium strength hand. Check back and take the equity.
@@OneEyedJack01 you are probably right. it just feels like villain played his hand extremely face up until the checkraise and J8 is good basically 100% of the time here, so i understand the temptation to bet.
Shoutout to one of the dealer name Andy, the room is small and smell like smoke as soon as you walk in casino floors.
How the f*** can Bart propose folding to 25 on flop.... Amazing how clueless lots of pros are
Anyone else just folding flop? MP should be pretty strong betting into this many players. CO is loose but can still have us crushed. Two players left to act…
Yeah I’m just getting out the way here.
I did not think the flop call was terrible, just marginal. But the turn call was awful. Biggest problem is that it's so hard for hero to improve & when he does the jack brings in T9.
@@EllieBanks333yeah I’m not saying the flop call is bad. I’m saying I personally would get out the way having only invested my $10 straddle.
I just hate limped pots tbh 😂
I am raising flop. Raise to $60. V could had A7, 89, 68, 54, 9T...tonnes of hands that are less. Calling flop is a grave mistake. b/c you just put yourself in the inferior position and keep V in the superior position. I could not afford myself that weak play.
And then , thanks to this, I could even force stronger pair of 8 to fold (Q8, K8, A8).
If villain had a set or straight on the turn, wouldn't he have to bet larger? It just doesn't make any sense why he would bet smaller on the turn in relation to the pot if he had two pair or better and then risk not getting any more value by checking the river. I feel like the majority of these calls are just two people in a hand that both have massively misplayed.
I think the villain had either 56 or 44 and more likely quads and went for craziness to try and get called by hero .. there is no chance someone is risking 75% of their stack to win peanuts
17:18 why betting here? Who's gonna call you? Not a weakerr hand, for sure.
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17:27 V r to $500!! GRRRREAT! I love this move. Now what?? Damn if you call, damn if you fold. Damned, anyway!
I don't thunk it's a bluff...therefore fold that weak hand anyway.
The J is not a clean out if it comes as T9 got there too. Check back river 100%. Your bet induced the raise he put you on draw I bet. Now you have to fold a hand that had showdown value.
Caller, "I was buying more chips as he was cashing out" sounds like a CLP subscriber!😂
Can you talk more about the single straddle guy killing the game? I dislike straddles as a whole. I’m not sure I understand the logic of how it will kill the game though.
What a bad action from the hero on the river. Value betting with mediocre hand and got punished!
I think, realistically, this guy could be telling the truth. In his eyes he has a draw that busted and he's making a bluff, regardless of how little sense it makes. He's a losing player, remember him, don't make thin value bets quite this thin against him, and you'll be fine.
yeah? Particularly the guy who tricked you with x/r??! He must be telling the truth, that he was not happy previously to disclose.
I’ve played countless hours in that room it’s easy action,that guy is lying especially w the perceived image. People in Tunica are crazy I lived in Vegas for many years and those games were soft after about noon early morning OMC’s for the most part. Tunica is ripe for the pickins
In a limped pot, i can see 55 playing like this. V knkws H doesn't have a boat (he checked option pre, never w 88 or 77). Hs bets says value not bluff (would you bet 910 this size on river??) So 55 is beat, and H has 8x most likely and 8x is likely folding. So he checks 55. Pot bet he folds, check back he beats draws, small value bet he raises. Not saying its right or wrong, but is see this type of play regularly. Thats why you check back your marginal hand on the river.
Villain was playing the player. He thought he was making block bets, until hero totally caps himself with the 85, probably combined with a tell. Then villain just plays the player and makes it impossible to call. It wasn't a huge pot, and it wasn't going to become one. Take the free showdown with your very marginal value hand that isn't getting paid by worse very often.
Anybody else think raising the flop is a good idea? Likely gets it heads up and gives you the betting lead. MP might fold a better 8 or call with a straight draw. And if CO is so loose, he might call again with a bad hand.
Totally believe he had 55 there, he picks up straight equity on turn plus could still be ahead so he bets again, river comes he checks, sees you do you’re small value bet which you admittedly have been doing a lot and obviously have mostly one pair type hands and he decides to push you off it. Plus if he were lying about it, 55 is such a random hand to say you had. You got bluffed outta your socks
He could have had a number of airball bluffs. The action pre was bet call ....... so 55 and all middling 9 through 4 hands are possible. It was huge multiway.
I'm on the river here and hero is value betting. This seems like a mistake to me - villain was betting flop and turn into multiple players, which is somewhat polarizing already.
Villain is going to have whiffed draws, or better value. The whiffs mostly fold while better calls, and we lose. Even worse, some of villain's missed draws will check raise us on the river, putting us in a terrible spot with a marginal top pair.
One of the big differences I see between good players and recreational players is that good players find more thin value, but this seems too thin to me, and will backfire. There just aren't enough hands we're beating that will call a bet.
...and there it is. What an awful spot to get check-raised for such a large amount. If villain is hand reading, hero has played the hand in a way that makes it pretty clear that he has a marginal pair.
I'm guessing solvers will tell us to fold often, but we're going to have to call sometimes with our top pair. Nasty.
I'm curious what hand he thought villain would call his river bet with that he beats?🤔
In the intro you guys talked about Tunica's rich PLO history and how it's the only place it was played on a regular basis.
Given this background, I could believe the villain.
In PLO, turning 55 into a bluff (representing the nut straight which you're double blocking) on that turn is a pretty common play. You can get a lot of folds from hands that aren't the nuts and can't draw to the nuts.
(Obviously, this doesn't translate well to NLH because you're not getting as many folds from medium-strength hands).
As for the river - villain's check makes sense because the board paired. But hero's tiny bet makes villain believe that hero doesn't have a boat; and villain check-raises hoping to get hero off of anything worse than a straight.
J on the turn could cause trouble
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