Links to the parts & pieces in the video (affiliate links) ------------------------------------ Victron 48V MultiPlus-II 5kVA 120V Inverter www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-multiplus-2-5kva-120v-inverter-70a-charger/?ref=AzzpK9Fl 10kVA 120/240v Base MultiPlus-II System www.currentconnected.com/product/10kva-120-240v-multiplus-2-5kva/?ref=AzzpK9Fl Victron VE.Bus to USB - MK3-USB Interface Configuration Tool www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-interface-mk3-usb-configuration-tool/?ref=AzzpK9Fl Victron Cerbo GX www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-cerbo-gx-system-controller/?ref=AzzpK9Fl Victron GX Touch 7" Display www.currentconnected.com/product/gx-touch-display-cerbo-gx/?ref=AzzpK9Fl For more information, please check out my website with links to all the components, materials and products I have used in developing my off-grid solar system: going-off-grid.com
Thanks, do you have any specifics regarding this? I know there was a fix in the past but it was for older versions and if I recall my serial number wasn't within the range of affected devices.
@@AdamDeLay07 I tried to post the url but youtube blocked it. Google what is in the quotes and you'll find the pdf. Looks like what I just purchased is affected HQ2219 as well. Dang it did I get super old stock.
@@DannyCsaszar Ah, now I remember. The 120v model of the MP2 5kVa isn't listed on that doc. I think all the problems regarding sound were before that model. Thanks for sharing though!
Important to remember the decibel (dB) scale for measuring sound is logarithmic. For example, a 3 dB increase in sound is approximately twice the intensity.
I believe it was referenced in another video, but my 6500s had an idle current of around 84w a piece. So your looking at 168w each hour just to run the units. The Victron system in total, I believe I saw 35-36w for full system idle. Each inverter is 15w. So I’m basically saving 3.2kW over a 24 hour period just in idle capacity differences!
Another great video. I pumped the breaks on upgrading to the EG4 units after seeing your issues. Was looking at 18kPV but there is a FB forum where people are saying they have flicker issues also. Might need to go down the path you are with Tier-1.
Thanks. I hadn’t heard of the flickering issues. Can you tell me what the name of the group is? I don’t think YT likes external links in the comments, otherwise I would just ask for a link to the page.
I’d be interested to know the group also. That’s the first I’ve heard about any flickering with the 18kpv. And I’ve had both types of inverters 6500’s and the 18kpv.
I love my “quiet at lower outputs” SolArk12K’s. I started my shop EG4 6500EX. Geez, that was scary just bringing in 1.7k! I would not recommend them for inside your home or somewhere you don’t want to hear a turbine engine running.
When the fans in the EG4s start to spin up when the PV inputs begin to get over about 1.6 to 2 KW, dear lord they get loud! I can pretty much tell how much PV is coming in by listening to the fan noise. Not a big issue here because they're in the basement, not in our living space, but I wouldn't want to put a pair of these up in the living space.
My regular multiplus 3000/24 is always super quiet except when the fan kicks in… even then it not bad at all ..I don’ even notice if a few ft away… EXCEPT ……..for whatever reason , when I hook up my high quality heat gun on high (1250 watts ) everything is normal BUT on low (500 watts) , my inverter sounds like a small weed whacker growling… but only when I use the heat gun on low … I have run at least 25 other things from small to huge..everything I own to test stuff .! Nothing causes it to hum …..only that heat gun on low… I have no idea… it may be somthing is wrong with the gun…??? My hillbilly solution….don’t use the heat gun on low… I don’t need it to work on low… Use it on high and hold it a few inches further back ……. I’m a simply guy looking for simple answers… Your vid reminded me of this scenario… Thanks…J.
Hopefully-educated guess: your heat gun uses a TRIAC to moderate heat output, same as a light dimmer uses a TRIAC to moderate light output. TRIACs avoid having to dissipate as heat (eg by some form of variable resistor) the power you don't want to go into the load by chopping current over each half cycle of AC. Need to mention a bit of physics to explain why this is significant: Ohm's law says V = I×R, and power P = V×I; these are fairly well-known, but they only hold for resistive/real loads (ie when power factor = 1). For an inductor (of which a transformer is a special case), V = -L×dI/dt (where L is inductance, I is current, and dI/dt is the rate of change of current over time; note that minus sign). When a TRIAC is set for full power, it starts conducting right at the beginning of each half-cycle so the current wave form looks the same as if the TRIAC weren't there. When it is set for around 50% power, it doesn't start to conduct until close to the peak of each half-cycle, so there is an abrupt change in current (high dI/dt) proportional to the voltage at the time the TRIAC turns on, rather than the sinusoidal current that normally follows sinusoidal voltage. This is related to why dimmers buzz, but only when not at full power (magnetostrictive effect, which is also why some switch mode power supplies, especially battery chargers, tend to whine and make other odd noises). The effect of that minus sign is to present a sudden and large voltage acting _against_ the voltage from the Victron's inverter, forcing the inverter to increase apparent power output in order to maintain the 110/230V sinusoid it is designed to generate. That voltage distorts the AC voltage waveform, increases Total Harmonic Distortion and thereby decreases power factor. So even though a heating element is a purely linear/resistive/real load, a TRIAC-controlled element is not, because it is a non-linear load with awful power factor. That goes to power factor and the difference between Watts (real power) and Volt-Ampères (apparent power), and why this 5kVA inverter's capacity is rated at 4.4kW. When your TRIAC-controlled heat gun is set to 500W, the power that would have been dissipated in the heat gun has to go somewhere - and that somewhere is as heat in the power source. For utility power, that heat is dissipated in the power lines and transformer. For the inverter, it is likewise dissipated in its transformer, reflecting the fact that the inverter must work even harder (hence the noise you hear) than when the heat gun is at full power. It's broadly the same thing as what happens when driving a load with poor power factor, and is related to why inverters that use a cheaper, lighter and smaller high-frequency topology are lousy at driving loads with poor power factor such as inductive loads.
Hello, why do you have the difference in watts between L1 and L2? Shouldn't they have the same watts? Does the length of the AC cables matter? As DC does
Unless you only have a single 240v load running, your L1 and L2 will probably not match because of all the different devices connected to your inverters. There’s alway potential for different devices to be turned on at the same time but different phases and they have different loads. I had wired up my AC side thinking they had to all be the same length but I’ve since been told by several that it doesn’t have to be regarding AC like it does DC.
I'm not quite understanding what you are utilizing the transfer switch for. It is just a basic on of switch, if not can you maybe go over how the electricity is running in the up and down positions?
The transfer switch isn’t needed. I put it in to quickly allow switching from grid to solar power because I do a lot of testing. If I have to take my system offline for any reason, I can just push the switch to the up position and all my loads are on grid power.
I like that cerbo screen thing. I wonder if there is a way to get such fast updating out of solar assistant. You should do the test with high solar input. My 6500s seem to reach takeoff velocity when the solar input goes over 3000w. I'm surprised at the losses shown with such an efficient system. 11.105kW from the batter minus 354 dc watts - 9.26kW + 20.4W from solar is 1500w unaccounted for. That can't be right. Do you know what that's about? Is the shunt in need of calibration ?
I’m guessing if you had the version of SA with the local display, you might get faster refresh times, but your still dependent on getting the data from the different devices. These inverters don’t have Solar charge controllers. They’re separate. Even the separate chafe controller is quiet though. I’ll be doing a video on that later. I’m not sure if the DC numbers are accurate. Haven’t looked into it yet.
After looking at it more, in order to get an accurate efficiency measurement, you would have to put a meter on the DC in and the AC Out and do the calculations that way. The individual devices on the Cerbo display might not update exactly in tune with each other, so you data could be off a little. I know the spec sheet shows that the inverters can have up to a 96% efficiency rating, but I’m guessing that’s not under full load. I don’t think any inverter keeps its peek efficiency at full load.
Is the Max load 5kw each on the inverters, how long will it stay at max before they trip, how long past max will it run, Is thier a higher max rate with PV charging.
Continuous output is 5kVA. You have to take the power factor of what’s running into account. Peak power is supposedly 9kw, but I don’t know for how long and under what circumstances. Guess I’ll just have to push these units till they shut down… 😁 www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-II-120V-EN.pdf
I guess it depends on which time in the video your looking at. When I looked at when the inverter was outputting 9.26k, I calculate the efficiency at 87%. I still have to figure out what/why the DC system is high when the inverters run harder. Seems like it has to be more than just the fans running.
After looking at it more, in order to get an accurate efficiency measurement, you would have to put a meter on the DC in and the AC Out and do the calculations that way. The individual devices on the Cerbo display might not update exactly in tune with each other, so you data could be off a little. I know the spec sheet shows that the inverters can have up to a 96% efficiency rating, but I’m guessing that’s not under full load. I don’t think any inverter keeps its peek efficiency at full load.
I don’t think this is a fair comparison as the EG4 is an all in one so you should have left the charge controller on. Also you other test was during charging on a Sunny day and today is a rainy day. I’m seeing apples and oranges.
It wouldn’t have mattered had I left the charge controller on. Even the 450/100 decibel level only increases maybe 1 db when running hot. The biggest take away is the fans always are making noise with the 6500s and they barely run with the new system.
Links to the parts & pieces in the video (affiliate links)
------------------------------------
Victron 48V MultiPlus-II 5kVA 120V Inverter
www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-multiplus-2-5kva-120v-inverter-70a-charger/?ref=AzzpK9Fl
10kVA 120/240v Base MultiPlus-II System
www.currentconnected.com/product/10kva-120-240v-multiplus-2-5kva/?ref=AzzpK9Fl
Victron VE.Bus to USB - MK3-USB Interface Configuration Tool
www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-interface-mk3-usb-configuration-tool/?ref=AzzpK9Fl
Victron Cerbo GX
www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-cerbo-gx-system-controller/?ref=AzzpK9Fl
Victron GX Touch 7" Display
www.currentconnected.com/product/gx-touch-display-cerbo-gx/?ref=AzzpK9Fl
For more information, please check out my website with links to all the components, materials and products I have used in developing my off-grid solar system: going-off-grid.com
Thank you for the extra excercise you've gotten yourself :)
🤣 thanks!
I like that sound… sorta rhythmic… I could sleep to that…good system..!
They certainly don’t seem loud at all. A different tone then mine has of course. Also the PV charging being nearly silent is a nice bonus.
Great test. By the way there is a retrofix for the multiplus called "Reduce low RPM fan noise MultiPlus-II, EasySolar-II & Quattro-II v2"
Thanks, do you have any specifics regarding this? I know there was a fix in the past but it was for older versions and if I recall my serial number wasn't within the range of affected devices.
@@AdamDeLay07 I tried to post the url but youtube blocked it. Google what is in the quotes and you'll find the pdf. Looks like what I just purchased is affected HQ2219 as well. Dang it did I get super old stock.
@@DannyCsaszar Ah, now I remember. The 120v model of the MP2 5kVa isn't listed on that doc. I think all the problems regarding sound were before that model. Thanks for sharing though!
Important to remember the decibel (dB) scale for measuring sound is logarithmic. For example, a 3 dB increase in sound is approximately twice the intensity.
Good point, thanks!
I'll look forward to you talk about the lower idle current and how much more power you see because of the increased efficiency!
i think like 15 watts a piece, known to be the lowest
I believe it was referenced in another video, but my 6500s had an idle current of around 84w a piece. So your looking at 168w each hour just to run the units. The Victron system in total, I believe I saw 35-36w for full system idle. Each inverter is 15w. So I’m basically saving 3.2kW over a 24 hour period just in idle capacity differences!
Another great video. I pumped the breaks on upgrading to the EG4 units after seeing your issues. Was looking at 18kPV but there is a FB forum where people are saying they have flicker issues also. Might need to go down the path you are with Tier-1.
Thanks.
I hadn’t heard of the flickering issues. Can you tell me what the name of the group is? I don’t think YT likes external links in the comments, otherwise I would just ask for a link to the page.
I’d be interested to know the group also. That’s the first I’ve heard about any flickering with the 18kpv. And I’ve had both types of inverters 6500’s and the 18kpv.
Signature Solar EG4 Users. There’s a few comments about it which of course is concerning.
@@GavinStoneDIYBeen waiting to see if you had any of these issues.
@@cgutowski471 thanks!
I noticed the same thing on my similar style Victron 2000VA: louder at lower fan speeds.
Nice effect with the noise comparisons haha my EG4s are incredibly loud when they are charging the battery and they get hot.
Thanks! Yeah they get super loud. Do you guys have any cooling in your shed or do you just leave the door open?
@w8dev I leave the door open for now, but on the way far back of my to do list is install some sort of ventilation fan in the wall
I love my “quiet at lower outputs” SolArk12K’s.
I started my shop EG4 6500EX. Geez, that was scary just bringing in 1.7k! I would not recommend them for inside your home or somewhere you don’t want to hear a turbine engine running.
Try bringing in 4K…. Prepare for liftoff!
When the fans in the EG4s start to spin up when the PV inputs begin to get over about 1.6 to 2 KW, dear lord they get loud! I can pretty much tell how much PV is coming in by listening to the fan noise. Not a big issue here because they're in the basement, not in our living space, but I wouldn't want to put a pair of these up in the living space.
My regular multiplus 3000/24 is always super quiet except when the fan kicks in… even then it not bad at all ..I don’ even notice if a few ft away…
EXCEPT ……..for whatever reason , when I hook up my high quality heat gun
on high (1250 watts ) everything is normal BUT on low (500 watts) , my inverter sounds like a small weed whacker growling… but only when I use the heat gun on low …
I have run at least 25 other things from small to huge..everything I own to test stuff .!
Nothing causes it to hum …..only that heat gun on low…
I have no idea…
it may be somthing is wrong with the gun…???
My hillbilly solution….don’t use the heat gun on low… I don’t need it to work on low…
Use it on high and hold it a few inches further back …….
I’m a simply guy looking for simple answers…
Your vid reminded me of this scenario…
Thanks…J.
Thanks for sharing!
Hopefully-educated guess: your heat gun uses a TRIAC to moderate heat output, same as a light dimmer uses a TRIAC to moderate light output. TRIACs avoid having to dissipate as heat (eg by some form of variable resistor) the power you don't want to go into the load by chopping current over each half cycle of AC.
Need to mention a bit of physics to explain why this is significant: Ohm's law says V = I×R, and power P = V×I; these are fairly well-known, but they only hold for resistive/real loads (ie when power factor = 1). For an inductor (of which a transformer is a special case), V = -L×dI/dt (where L is inductance, I is current, and dI/dt is the rate of change of current over time; note that minus sign).
When a TRIAC is set for full power, it starts conducting right at the beginning of each half-cycle so the current wave form looks the same as if the TRIAC weren't there. When it is set for around 50% power, it doesn't start to conduct until close to the peak of each half-cycle, so there is an abrupt change in current (high dI/dt) proportional to the voltage at the time the TRIAC turns on, rather than the sinusoidal current that normally follows sinusoidal voltage. This is related to why dimmers buzz, but only when not at full power (magnetostrictive effect, which is also why some switch mode power supplies, especially battery chargers, tend to whine and make other odd noises).
The effect of that minus sign is to present a sudden and large voltage acting _against_ the voltage from the Victron's inverter, forcing the inverter to increase apparent power output in order to maintain the 110/230V sinusoid it is designed to generate. That voltage distorts the AC voltage waveform, increases Total Harmonic Distortion and thereby decreases power factor. So even though a heating element is a purely linear/resistive/real load, a TRIAC-controlled element is not, because it is a non-linear load with awful power factor.
That goes to power factor and the difference between Watts (real power) and Volt-Ampères (apparent power), and why this 5kVA inverter's capacity is rated at 4.4kW.
When your TRIAC-controlled heat gun is set to 500W, the power that would have been dissipated in the heat gun has to go somewhere - and that somewhere is as heat in the power source. For utility power, that heat is dissipated in the power lines and transformer. For the inverter, it is likewise dissipated in its transformer, reflecting the fact that the inverter must work even harder (hence the noise you hear) than when the heat gun is at full power.
It's broadly the same thing as what happens when driving a load with poor power factor, and is related to why inverters that use a cheaper, lighter and smaller high-frequency topology are lousy at driving loads with poor power factor such as inductive loads.
Great videos!! Appreciate your knowledge! Are your Victron inverters UL approved? Thanks.
Thanks. After moment the UL certification is pending. I’m hoping it’ll be finalized shortly but I’m not sure how long it actually takes.
Hello, why do you have the difference in watts between L1 and L2? Shouldn't they have the same watts? Does the length of the AC cables matter? As DC does
Unless you only have a single 240v load running, your L1 and L2 will probably not match because of all the different devices connected to your inverters. There’s alway potential for different devices to be turned on at the same time but different phases and they have different loads.
I had wired up my AC side thinking they had to all be the same length but I’ve since been told by several that it doesn’t have to be regarding AC like it does DC.
I'm not quite understanding what you are utilizing the transfer switch for. It is just a basic on of switch, if not can you maybe go over how the electricity is running in the up and down positions?
The transfer switch isn’t needed. I put it in to quickly allow switching from grid to solar power because I do a lot of testing. If I have to take my system offline for any reason, I can just push the switch to the up position and all my loads are on grid power.
I like that cerbo screen thing. I wonder if there is a way to get such fast updating out of solar assistant. You should do the test with high solar input. My 6500s seem to reach takeoff velocity when the solar input goes over 3000w.
I'm surprised at the losses shown with such an efficient system. 11.105kW from the batter minus 354 dc watts - 9.26kW + 20.4W from solar is 1500w unaccounted for. That can't be right. Do you know what that's about? Is the shunt in need of calibration ?
I’m guessing if you had the version of SA with the local display, you might get faster refresh times, but your still dependent on getting the data from the different devices.
These inverters don’t have Solar charge controllers. They’re separate. Even the separate chafe controller is quiet though. I’ll be doing a video on that later.
I’m not sure if the DC numbers are accurate. Haven’t looked into it yet.
After looking at it more, in order to get an accurate efficiency measurement, you would have to put a meter on the DC in and the AC Out and do the calculations that way. The individual devices on the Cerbo display might not update exactly in tune with each other, so you data could be off a little.
I know the spec sheet shows that the inverters can have up to a 96% efficiency rating, but I’m guessing that’s not under full load. I don’t think any inverter keeps its peek efficiency at full load.
@@AdamDeLay07 they become more efficent under load, with no load there chewing power, Pout is zero
Did your lights ever stop flickering w/ the new units?
Yup. I would say 99% of the flickering is gone,
Is the Max load 5kw each on the inverters, how long will it stay at max before they trip, how long past max will it run, Is thier a higher max rate with PV charging.
Continuous output is 5kVA. You have to take the power factor of what’s running into account. Peak power is supposedly 9kw, but I don’t know for how long and under what circumstances. Guess I’ll just have to push these units till they shut down… 😁
www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-II-120V-EN.pdf
Victron tend to under rate these
whay did it show a overload at 9.4kW when to they are 2 5,000Watts inverters totaling 10,000Watts?
The blinking Overload light is a warning that the inverter is getting close to it's max output. It wasn't actually overloaded.
👍
Surprised at the low 83% conversion rate
I guess it depends on which time in the video your looking at. When I looked at when the inverter was outputting 9.26k, I calculate the efficiency at 87%. I still have to figure out what/why the DC system is high when the inverters run harder. Seems like it has to be more than just the fans running.
After looking at it more, in order to get an accurate efficiency measurement, you would have to put a meter on the DC in and the AC Out and do the calculations that way. The individual devices on the Cerbo display might not update exactly in tune with each other, so you data could be off a little.
I know the spec sheet shows that the inverters can have up to a 96% efficiency rating, but I’m guessing that’s not under full load. I don’t think any inverter keeps its peek efficiency at full load.
I don’t think this is a fair comparison as the EG4 is an all in one so you should have left the charge controller on. Also you other test was during charging on a Sunny day and today is a rainy day. I’m seeing apples and oranges.
It wouldn’t have mattered had I left the charge controller on. Even the 450/100 decibel level only increases maybe 1 db when running hot.
The biggest take away is the fans always are making noise with the 6500s and they barely run with the new system.
go-for-launch