The battle for the soul of Toryism, with David Frost | Last Orders
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2024
- David Frost, former chief Brexit negotiator and Tory peer, joins Chris Snowdon and Tom Slater for the latest episode of Last Orders. They discuss how the Tories became the party of the nanny state, why freedom should be at the heart of politics and the prospects for Conservative electoral renewal.
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I defected from Labour to Tory in 2017 after Brexit and voted Tory again in 2019. I'm not voting Tory in 2024, but neither am I returning woke, open-borders Labour. As far as the Tories are concerned, I see ZERO evidence that they will change course & become Populist in outlook if they can still rely pro populist voters to support them. Populist minded conservative voters have to take one for the team in 2024 and allow a Labour landslide in order to force a genuine populist revolution in the Tories. The Party may need to split to achieve this.
The BBC won't allow anyone on to explain the stupidity of NET Zero policies.
Both Johnson and Sunak may as well join Labour. They raised taxes, grew the state, especially the nanny state, doubled down on green policies, and generally wasted the chance to take advantage of Brexit. There is no point in voting for them if they wont do conservative things.
Frost seems like a decent man.
Our country is in such a perilous state that we need a very strong and principled leader who is not afraid to take radical and unpopular decisions to get us back on track.
What would bring back supporters is to begin reversing the equalities and the net zero environmental act, then to commit to reversing the rest of Blair’s revolutionary reforms.
truth is rishi sunak is not the leader, his is just a front man
Rishi Sunk is just a manager, and a low-grade one at that.
When are these people going to understand. Few vote for the conservatives or labour. They vote for what they think will be the least crap. Most people voted to keep Corbin out. Curse the system that gives us such poor choices.
Why not just split the Tory Party now? The defections show it can be done very quickly. Frost is right that there isn't a party conservatives would want to vote for.
An excellent thought provoking discussion. Bravi 👌🏻
Snowden needs to shut up and let Frost speak. Why bother inviting someone on and just mouthing off?
If you aren't even going to attempt to conserve the traditional demographics of Britain, you have no business calling yourself a Conservative party. Culture and politics are downstream from demographics.
That last sentence implies (quite heavily) that all people have their ideas determined by a mixture of DNA and culture. It is saying that free will doesn't exist and that better ideas cannot replace bad ones in the minds of individuals, no matter where they were born or brought up. It is true that SOME people simply follow what they see in the culture, but many don't. And the idea that a person's physiology determines their ideas is pure racism - the lowest form of brutish collectivism.
If our leaders stood up for the ideas of freedom that made this country great, not only would the lazy not want to come for a non-existent hand-out, but the ambitious freedom-loving hard-worker could be welcomed with open arms.
@@matthewstroud4294 Here's a thought experiment for you: Japan is currently over 95% ethnic Japanese, and its culture is very unique in the world. Now imagine a future Japan that is only 40% ethnic Japanese, with the remaining 60% being made up of Arabs, Africans, Europeans, South Americans, other Asians, and so on - all of whom are migrants or the children of migrants.
Will that highly diverse Japan have identical culture and politics to the 95% homogenous one?
Of course it won't, and you intuitively know it. Humans are social animals. We are creatures of identity. We're not isolated individuals with no attachments to things, places, and people. We're not like blank fungible tokens that can be exchanged for identical replacements anywhere in the world. We all come with baggage, loyalties, preferences, identities.
^All of this is true even without any belief in genetic determinism or even in the existence of "race." Simply observe how humans are socially, observe what has happened everywhere that immigration has happened, then adjust your expectations accordingly.
If you think a 30% white Britian will be no different to a 90% white one, you must have had your eyes closed for the last several decades and have no knowledge of world history.
@@matthewstroud4294You're being unfair. I think the last sentence is saying nothing more radical than if you import a huge bunch of foreigners, their deeply ingrained cultural assumptions will change the host country's culture.
This was recently demonstrated by the cowing of the speaker of the house of commons recently, because of the tacit threat to parliamentarians by Islamic fundamentalist.
The influx of huge numbers of religious fundamentalists into the UK over the years, each of them subject to very different eastern cultures, has altered Britain's cultural assumption of free speech at all costs. This, in turn, has altered our politics.
@@matthewstroud4294 Individual exceptions to general trends aren't of much interest when we're talking about the movement of millions of people. It is unwise to ignore how humans inevitably are in groups.
@@cabbage9398 I was questioning and objecting to "Culture and politics are downstream from demographics".
They are not and never have been. For that to be true, free will cannot exist and people are determined meat-robots.
Culture and politics are downstream of ethics, which is a product of how we see the world and what we see (epistemology and metaphysics). This all rests upon the axioms we use. If free will is axiomatic (which it is) then your statement is incorrect, and it is important that it is incorrect too.
We import ideas when we import people, and that can affect everything in a culture. But, is it true that a properly free country would have problems from immigration - not much.
The example of Japan is exactly right, but not with the emphasis you are using. Japanese culture in the run-up and during WW2 was transformed after the war. Was their population replaced? No, their ideas were replaced. It's not about the race, skin, religious background or any other immutable characteristics of an immigrant, it's about whether the host culture is confident and strong in it's defense of the principles of freedom, and allowing that to attract the right people.
I agree that mass migration with multiculturalism is awful, but the problem is the multiculturalism, not the immigrant.
Speaking from the US, I'm confused by the guest's mention of the generational smoking ban without any NHS context. Isn't such a ban to be expected given socialized healthcare?
if so, you've expected a ban sooner than 76 years after the founding of the NHS. I suspect it's more of an attention grab by sunak and such a ban isn't going to affect tax revenues enough to cause a problem.
Ban the ROP.
The tories long ago redefined conservatism to mean what blair meant by new labour...culturally left and economically centrist. The conservative party is misselling by continuing to use that name and should call themselves something else. Truss tried to drag them back to actual conservatism and look what happened to her...
Populism is merely the return of the pendulum.
I always wear pink and yellow in the Winter, I like to think I'm pretty non conformist😂
Get woke go broke
There should not be any debate. If they don't support clear and distinct policies of low taxation and small state; freemarket economics over a large public spending and borrowing; strong on law and order and border security; enthusiast promoters of our culture, history and traditions, and the desire to conserve them; then they're not Conservatives and they never had any business being in the Conservative Party.
So called "one nation Conservatives" would poltically represent the fact that most people in the nation are actually Conservatives but, instead, they ruthlessly exploit a fundamental misunderstanding of this term to hijack the Tory party and push the Labour / Libdem policies that are entirely opposite of those of true Conservatives.
They have destroyed the Conservative party, and it be an extinct as a political force after the next election.
Small states are useless at conserving anything other than the profits of businesses who donate to political parties (e.g., building industry donors to the Tory party who would stand to lose a lot of money if immigration was reduced).
Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman are not Conservative thinkers. They were Liberals. It is impossible to have much (if any) Social Conservatism in an economy that is highly Liberal. Conservatism and Liberalism are fundamentally at odds with one another.
One either prioritizes laissez faire Capitalism, or one prioritizes conserving the culture, demographics, identity, customs, security, liberties, and cohesiveness of Britian. It can't be both.
@@cabbage9398Separate state and economics completely. Small state means nothing, the question is what is the proper role of the Government and in my view it’s purely the protection and defence of our individual rights.
@@nockianlifter661 People are individuals, but we're also part of collectives - families, communities, nations. Excessive individualism comes at the expense of the family, community, and nation. To conserve things of vital importance requires authority, hierarchy, and order. An authority must *at times* place the health of the collectives I mentioned above the desires or liberty of individuals because those collectives are vital for the health and wellbeing of individuals
It is impossible to completely separate state and economy. It has never been achieved anywhere states have existed. Libertarianism is not Conservatism. You're welcome to form a Libertarian party, but don't expect Conservatives to want anything to do with it.
@@cabbage9398They can’t be two things at once, A is A, the law of identity holds, check your premises.
@@nockianlifter661 "People can't be more than one thing at once" - guy who is both an individual and a member of a family.
The Tories stopped being TRUE Tories after the handgun ban of 1997 when they betrayed, backstabbed & scapegoated gun owners. It was all downhill from there.
If you are like me a centre-right voter, believing in small Government, low taxation, pro-business, Brexit implementation and encouraging individuals to earn for the good of all in society… then there is no party to vote for.
Traditionally it would be the Conservatives, but they are implementing centre left Liberal policies.
Like most who have extended, successive periods in office they are tired, directionless and have no real ideological proposition.
The worst is they are far from being small Govt through lockdowns, C19 approach and net zero we have seen the greatest erosion of civil liberties ever under them.
Labour is rudderless and lack a coherent ideology which bodes ill for us all and they have not even started.
But the main point is this… it is no longer about Left or Right ideology, politics is a farce, a political theatre where the actors are mere puppets and others we do not see pull the policy strings… it’s all a distraction.
what else did he also think as well?
"..lost it's way.." they lied to the British people send are paying the price.
ZERO SEATS, ZERO SEATS, ZERO SEATS
Furst@