I THOUGHT this would only take 5 hours to make
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- It didn't. The client who commissioned this high chair go the deal of a life time. As a new furniture maker I'm learning that being a woodworker does not make you a good CEO overnight.
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Had you estimated the time accurately, you probably wouldn't have gotten the job. Some jobs just aren't worth quoting.
That’s the catch 22!
Yeah, that is the problem unfortunately. TBH that’s not a $1000 stool no matter how you look at. So you do the job at a loss or you just don’t do it 🤷🏻♂️. Nice stool though, I like the design of it 👍🏼
Not counting the timber in cost is fine, as long as the client is paying retail value for it. Yes, it was leftover from another job, but there will be jobs you under quote timber you end up paying more for, so always include it in the quote. Like others have said, trying to compete with Stokke who make a very good mass produced version will probably never be worth your time, but it was a good learning experience 😊
Great job! Looks good. But as mentioned previously, quoting it at those hours you never would have gotten the sale. Some projects just dont fit the formula, unless you build in bulk. Then the numbers start to get closer.
This is a build where you build templates and jigs to reproduced at a larger scale and reduce measurement times. Just plug and go w/router or better yet, this is a CNC build.
Regardless turned out great and you have learned something!
Thanks. Lesson learned!
You are stuck between a rock and a hard place with this, particularly when you are competing as handmade against mass produced items that are effectively identical. In this case quoting correctly would have lost the job entirely. I have strongly moved into the arena of making things that really are one-offs and can't generally be replicated by commercial mass produced processes. Mate, it was however cashflow and portfolio, and that is important too when you are trying to establish a reputation in your local market.
That’s a good point; copying something that costs so little is always doomed.
Well I wasn’t expecting that response 😂😂😂 F#$& ME…😂😂😂😂 yes some jobs, are just because you can…… nice build mate.
Dude I lose money on everything I make, that's why I could never do this for a living. Nice build though.
Thanks man! That surprises me with all the superhero stuff. Would’ve assumed people pay top dollar for that, and it all looks beautifully made
I used to do exactly this. But you learn that these jobs just aren’t worth quoting / getting.
I have moved into making what I want to make, then putting those items up for sale. You can target higher end clients that aren’t looking to skimp on every dollar. And I feel a table saw would have sped up your process considerably.
And another trick is never just make one. Always make 2 or 3 while everything is set up for it.
You could have doubled your stock for an extra couple of hours labour.
The idea of not quoting some jobs has come up a lot in the comments.
Good idea about making extra, I hadn’t thought of that
I stopped quoting jobs in hours and set a minimum of a halfday for my sanity!
I love this format Robin! Had me laughing when you described your performance 🤣
Thanks man!
Well profit is always in volume, unless your reputation allows you to charge singular projects. Great video.
Love the quality work as always and the refreshing honesty. Great work Robin, keep plugging away.
I guessed 1.5 days or 12hrs, wasn't too far off. After making furniture, built in cabinetry and joinery elements for a little over 10 years professionally (+ another 20 as a hobby) I know that I know that I know that one-offs are fun but they don't pay the bills.
No one is going to pay $1080.00 + materials ex GST for that high chair which is what I would've quoted at 12hrs so unless I'm desperate I don't bother, it's more cost effective to do some light bulb changing, picture hanging or ikea assembling for cash-flow in the quiet times.
I found that gathering rubbish wood and making dining tables then selling them online works well for when it's quiet, $600 minimum and let it go from there, eventually you'll get custom commissions with decent profits.
Or you could make 20 of those high chairs utilising all your scraps and aim for a price of $200 each, could be fun.
At the end of the day white boxes make money but that's like sleeping with the enemy for a cabinetmaker and built in joinery is worthwhile but you must warrant everything you build, be job site ready and have all the mobile tools plus helpers and the right license and insurances.
I’ve heard this so often from furniture makers; the money is in kitchens. But it is good to hear from people like yourself that the commission was doomed from the start. It justifies the frustration I had while quoting. Thanks for the detailed comment, really appreciate it
@@RobinLewisMakes kitchens, wardrobes etc will make you money but they drain your soul of all creativity and make you hate what you do. I've enjoyed working on heritage building restorations over the last 3 years, financially viable and draws on every single thing I know and then some. It's a good side gig and absolutely fascinating to see what was mass production 100 years ago
Definitely a better build than the original.
As another said, use the time and make at least 4 or 5. Then sell those off even if you take them to a baby store..... Leave a display one there??
Another good honest video my man. The trails and tribulations of starting your own business. 🤘🏼
I agree that you/shop 'aspire' to $60 per hour - $0 per hour can also be bad - so making something can be better than bad (just not good).
What you came away with was heaps of information on how tricky a simple looking build is, and that you can't compete with an automated factory price. There was a reason the client did not want to go back to the original manufacturer - and there in lies your margin.
I disagree that the material was $0 - that was an asset you earned on the last job, and it left the building.
It is only by doing these projects that you build up the knowledge base.
BUT - don't let the client tell others what it actually cost, or you will get more work in that range!!
I still get hourly quotes wrong (after 40 years as an architect) - if the client says yes straight away, I was too low, if they say no I wasted my time on the quotation. I like them to take a day or two to consider and say yes through gritted teeth - then I think I got it about right :)) (and just have to get my side right!!)
Great filming!
Thanks for the detailed response, really appreciate that. I’m trying to keep in mind that it’s all learning as you say. Hopefully in 40 years I’ll be closer to getting it right haha. Thanks again
Do your time estimates take into account the fact that you're filming? Having the client pay for the time it takes for you to set up the camera, etc. does not seem fair to me since that is really paid for by RUclips/ads, etc. A time calculation without filming would likely bring you closer to your 4.5 hour quote, but still at a net loss.
I don't include the time of the filming in the quote, but the time in the video does. So it would certainly be worth separating the 2 to see what the ratio is
Do you factor in your time of narrating and setting up things for recording? How much extra time do you think that added to the project? I feel like it wouldn’t be too long but then again I wouldn’t know how many retakes or setting up camera angles (if they’re preset or not etc) for your situation would add to the time.
It takes a surprising amount of time to film, something I’ve had trouble with in the past
You didn't lose 730 dollar, unless you had other jobs set aside while doing this.
You worked for a low hourly wage, that's all.
That’s a good way to look at it actually
Don’t worry Robin, only took you 9 mins 36 seconds 😊 it happens in the early stages of business where its tricky to quote.
😆
Awesome videos. You do a good job both on the tools and the camera. Question for you is what oil are you using for the finish. looks great
Thanks! I can’t remember the brand, it’s quite old. But it was a basic cutting board oil from my local wood supplier
Will copy the glue up trick mate! Great video 😊 I would guess 8-10h for that.
Thanks mate
@@RobinLewisMakes i didn’t guess 16h lol was that with recording
Another cracking video. Brutally honest when many others wouldn’t have.
I find Quoting time so hard and I mainly make projects for myself and not commissions.
Hopefully you may look back in years to come and think the lesson learned was worth the $700?
As a rule, if it takes xxx number of hours, multiply it by 2.5. best case scenario, for me at least
$730 loss But did you have fun?
Absolutely!
@RobinLewisMakes hell yeah mate. You love what you do then it's not a job
you did a great job on the product and you documented expense, labour and son very well. I would have liked to know the original quote price that the client knocked back though. I also just want to know who your intended market is, I don't know what currency you use but what I do know is, no middle class people I know personally would pay the correctly quoted price for that product. maybe its the spending habits in the region I'm from, I don't know. Either way great job and I look forward to more of your videos👍
The more people I talk to in the industry the more I hear that I need to target the higher income demographic. I'll never compete with large manufacturers so I need to create something that is unique, for an audience that will pay for it.
Thanks for watching, really appreciate the feedback
@@RobinLewisMakes cheers for replying!! Much appreciated
Sadly there is no ability to compete with mass produced furniture these days. Kmart sells these chairs for approximately $100 so you would have to make it in 1 hour and use free timber to even make a profit. If you want to make a profit you need to get into custom pieces or cabinetry (and even cabinetry is difficult now with bunnings/freedom offering options).
Having made the exact same chair, I was guessing 12 hours but I know half laps and dados take a lot of time if you don't have router bits and timber that is the exact same size.
The half laps are what got me; they took far longer than expected. And to the point about cost, this is why so many furniture makers say don’t target the lower end of the market, you need rich clients who want heirloom furniture to survive
It really turned out beautiful, perhaps better than the original but you can’t do that to yourself again! Your time is worth something, she better appreciate the craftsmanship and man hours put into the piece… but the deal was made and you’ve honored it even at your expense and that’s the right thing to do. I’ve built specifically for family, I do want to build professionally or at least on the side. I’m all about quality of joinery, building to perfection or without errors, etc. like you and I have a hard time with the financial part. It’s a weird guilt thing for charging “too much” because I love to gift but that’s obviously ridiculous and you shouldn’t downgrade the high quality of work and effort put into your work! It’s a balancing act too, unfortunately and depending on circumstances fortunately ppl can go to target or a stupid ikea for quick and cheap furniture but anyone who wants long lasting, quality, handcrafted pieces that they’ll pass down the generations have to pay for it and that’s fair! Enjoyed this one of course and hopefully views pay better than the job itself but either way a learning opportunity for you and us watching 🤘🏼
A learning experience is the biggest take away! Thanks so much for the message. I completely understand the difficulties with financials, I think for a lot of people in our scenario it’s not a natural thing. But talking to people in the industry they all say it’ll take a bit of trial and error and you’ll start valuing your time properly
Ive learned that everything takes a day and however long you think something is going to take double. So ifthe job takes you 4 hours you quote a day because its unlikely that you will have something to go straight on to to make up what you need income wise for that day. Also when it come to dsperation quotes, every time i have done the same, i have ended up building a peice of furniture for free. Of course you got a bideo out of it so not all a loss. Good vid though
I’m coming around to this idea; set a minimum for all projects (a day or two) and use that for 99% of the work
Before you start, I'd guess 13.5 hrs? Cheers, David
Very close
This was my favourite of your videos I have seen, also love seeing all the tools from Bunnings and other Oz stores a nice change
Thank you!
What was your original quote that she turned down? Would you have been losing money on that too?
Yeah would’ve still be a loss. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was a couple hundred more expensive
Great Video. From a business perspective however, there are many other factors at play here. Mainly, as you mentioned, your just starting out, so its normal to take on projects at a significantly reduced hourly rate, to either win the job and/or just get your name out there. My view is that as long as your not losing money on materials, or this project isnt stopping you from working on a better commission, then its perfectly fine to run jobs on reduced margins sometimes.
That’s true. It wasn’t money out the bank, just my time
@@RobinLewisMakes Thats right - and although its no great business model to not value your time - its better than doing nothing to further the reach of the business.
with designing, getting materials, building, sanding and finishing, at least 16 hours.
There's no designing here, it's a copy of a copy of a Stokke tripp trapp chair.
@@tima9790 sure, but id still need a drawing to work out how much of what size material is need. I wasn't that far of his time either.
No two pieces are the same. This will take about 16 hours.
Daaaamn I was spot on lol. And you looked so fast doing everything I thought you will finish in one day.
You also were clearly rushing things. Don’t know about you but if I was working this fast all the time around power tools I would probably loose a finger within a week.