are you familiar with the "Chladni plate experiment"? They vibrate a metal plate with sand on top at a various frequencies and it creates these interesting geometric patterns. I imagine you could do the same with salt on a copper plate before exposing it to the ammonia Edit: apparently they do this with violin and guitar shaped plates to visualize how the instrument resonates. The patterns generated for an acoustic guitar shape is pretty uninteresting, though. Maybe you'd get different results with an electric guitar shape, or perhaps you could etch the patterns before cutting the out the shape
I've not been a fan of the previous "steam-punk" copper tops but if Ben's experimentation produces more like this one I'm all for the copper phase continuing.
If you took the time, you could paint with mustard land forms and salt for water to create a map. Middle earth map on a guitar with the tree logo in pearl inlay would be amazing. I would so love a copper Tolkien guitar... Can't afford one so I may have to make it. Unless Ben beats me to it lol
I've done a few copper tops in the last couple of months and the only other ingredient I used was bicarbonate of soda which pushes the electric blues into greener tones compared to the salt on its own. I've also found the longer ye leave the copper in the fume box (12 hrs+) the blacker the background copper goes. I also sand the copper to 120/240 which seems to give the patina a slightly better bite on the surface when it comes to wash down time. Love what you're doing anyway,can't wait to see the 'mustard-top' finish if ye do it! All the best..
Jeppe Carlsen Unfortunately I think this is a part of the process that no matter what you use it's gonna affect the colour of your patina. I use lacquer mostly and do actually like the way it can knock some of the chalkier, pale blues down to a deeper, electric blue colour but I definitely lose a lot of the more subtle colours along the way. Laying it down in very thin coats may help retain them but it's difficult to maintain exactly what comes out of the fumebox through to the finished article in my experience.
Thank you so much for your reply :-) ... I have only done tests with copperleaf which is very delicate - one hour in the fumebox is all it can take before it disintegrates fully ... I spray it with saltwater and keep it in the chamber with a coup of ammoniac beside it. Maybe this is why my color disappears almost completely .. because it isn't that strong to begin with :-) .. which chemicals do you use ?
Jeppe Carlsen Yeah I had a feeling copper leaf might be difficult to work with patina wise but I'm sure if you get your chemicals/time in the fumebox just right it could work! I use sheet copper which is about 0.6mm thick so it can stand up to a bit of abuse but its still easy enough to work with. And if I don't like the way a patina turns out I can sand it back and start again. As for the chemicals, I line the bottom of the fumebox with paper towel sprayed with ammonia (household grade works fine), then I use a spray bottle of ammonia, used to mix salt in with this but its not essential. Also I prefer a bottle that gives a mist rather than small droplets, gives nicer gradations if you're leaving some copper areas without patina. Then its a matter of spraying the copper with this, sprinkling salt and/or bicarb of soda where ye want it and into the box. If you're doin the mustard trick you apply this before any ammonia. I hope that's helpful in some way, I know its more expensive but I think the thicker sheet copper is a lot more forgiving when doin patina work, it won't fall apart on you if you leave it too long in the box etc, so if the copper leaf doesn't work out I'd recommend trying that. Good luck!
Great video! I’m confused though. It wasn’t as bright when you were neutralizing w water. When did it get so bright and also after you rubbed some 3D off did you just let it dry and then seal it w a laquer or something?
Hey! Amazing!!!! What coating do you recommend to avoid the loss of the rusty effect while you working in the body? Of course later you have to use lacquer, but in the meantime? Thanx!
Hot copper into boiling water gives an AWESOME uniform red patina!! Clean copper fist with 0000 steel wool and then with isopropal alcohol then heat and add to boiling water. Crazy Beautiful affect! Best part no chemicals!
Love the copper! But not really the amount on a single guitar. I think a dark wood like some bog wood with a patina copper either pick guard in a strat style or inlay up the fret board?
You should get in touch with Gav from Corrosive Creations. Some of the finishes he has created are incredible and he might be able to pass on some knowledge. Alcohol inks also look incredible on copper!
I want a guitar with THAT finish on soooooo bad, just wish I could afford it! Ben, HG headstone cleaning solution might just be worth a shoofty at Crimson, judging by the mess it made of my (steel) tools when it leaked into a (thankfully old) toolbox of mine, it just might make an interesting solution to degrade the copper!
Hi Ben, have you tried oxidising copper leaf? Is it too thin , will it need to have any surface oxidising taken off first which I guess would result in sanding through the leaf?
Also how likely is ammonia used in ths way likely to effect the glue for the set neck and binding on a guitar or the size used for the copper leaf and maybe paint underneath? Damn, I'm creating more questions tas per usual, haha.
Great video, thanks so much for sharing your experiment! Is it safe to touch the copper after this treatment? I.e. if I used this technique to colour copper jewelery would it be ok to wear?
normally for jewelry you don't splash the ammonia directly on the copper, although some people spray a solution of ammonia vinegar and salt, but just with the fumes it'll do. i then clean it with a bit of water, let it dry out and coat with wax works fine! earrings cime out beautiful. still need to try it with brass.
Does it leave a textured surface or is it still flat? Also how hard wearing is the effect I'm guessing that you would want to lacquer it afterwards but would it come of with handling without the lacquer?
Personally I'm not a big fan of the random splotching effects, but the blue that the salt goes when exposed to ammonia is stunning - you could do some really fantastic effects with masking templates off and getting some clean shapes with it. I'd even like to see an entire top done evenly in it.
I do mostly steampunk props (Arcane Armoury)and I machine copper and brass all the time..built a steampunk guitar :)..but those blues are amazing..okay I need some amonia now...
I recently started to look into coloring wood the way it was done a couple hundred years ago (the array of colors is impressive) - the issue is sourcing the materials. Ever since 9-11 it's getting harder and harder to buy "chemistry" - whether it can be used for "ill intent" or not. One company would not / could not sell to me because I didn't own a website!!! Insane..... Great vid - I'd love to see someone make a top where they just left it hanging outside for a year and sprayed it with vinegar every day.....
It seems the Vinegar & Iron blackening reaction is easy enough to source.. heck, I have that in my kitchen already, but whats a good / simple / cheap bleaching juice to gray-white wash woods?
Ferric nitrate / aquafortis is good for treating woods with a decent tannin content, but it does't work on everything, and it doesn't have consistent results (again, because it reacts with tannins) - and it also requires heat to "bloom" the color. It's great for maple if you want shades of brown, or walnut if you want it to look like ebony. But your ask on "bleaching / gray-whitewash" is a bit confusing / contradictory. Bleaching I do with a 2 part solution of lye and concentrated (like 30%) hydrogen peroxide. But if you want to "gray" as in age wood, again in high tannin woods you can do so with simple "lime water" (calcium hydroxide/hydrated lime) - works great on mahogany and walnut. If you're talking oak simple iron water will work - iron will turn oak black. The only true white-wash I've seen is milk paint - but it's a pigment so you're going to cover the grain to an extent. Annato (the spice) in alcohol will turn mahogany a really nice red.
My kitchen cupboard doesnt have Lye & 30% hydrogen peroxide. Its bothersome that laundry bleach wont whiten wood... what am I to do if I get a oak stain on my shirt? I havent put a saw to wood in 20years, but Bens vids _INSPIRE_ me to try building a guitar.
As you proved in a previous video wet paper towels affects the copper. You could easily make your redundant Ccrimson logo of paper and get it to react onto the copper. It would look cool but people would still wonder who Charlie Crimson was.
Try mashed up boiled egg,guys used to use this to patina copper mechanical mods gives a marbled effect.your welcome,website called planetofthevapes has pics of copper patina with egg.looks lit
Just a recommendation. Use swimmer goggles when handling ammonia. It will keep it from reaching your eyes in the first place, and they still provide good production from other shit for your eyes.
+Daniel De La Pena I though that was a more uniform brownish patina.. An image search though had proved I will have to play with some though. Thanks for the heads up! B
Mustard is for the vinegar? It means back to the drawing board. I believe some of the materials worked against each other and made a giant mess. But messes are fun. Try 2 or 3 ingredients to avoid a vomit result.
Anonymous Prime seems to be haunting guitar oriented YT channels and posting this same "comment" over and over" That's why i replied as above. Somehow i think you will see this same comment again in the future.
Does lemon create any interesting effect? I was thinking you could even cut some slices and leave them on the copper for a while, and it might create nice circles
don't mix ammonia and nitrate fertilizer together, you are making a explosive if you do, not a really good idea. You probably have heard of ammonium nitrate.
Congratulations, you're one of todays lucky 10,000 :) Ammonium nitrate is NOT an explosive, in fact it is the "fertiliser" version of regular ammonia. I presume the explosive you're referring to is ANFO, which stands for "Ammonium nitrate fuel oil" and is a mixture of the aforementioned ammonium nitrate and a fuel oil such a diesel. As an explosive ANFO is really popular, constituting 80% of all explosives used in North America. Sources: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate xkcd.com/1053/
Sorry, nice tries, but it is one step away from plastic. Where is natures look of honest wood? Sorry, but I don't like this way the direction of beautifull guitars is going. Greetings Rob
It seems to me you could get the same result with paint and if you werent happy with the result you could simply remove the paint. PS I wouldn't own anything that ugly.
That mustard effect looks like you could arrange it in such a way that you could convincingly mimic flamed or quilted maple. Super cool.
WOW! That is beautiful!! I'm jumping around clapping my hands all excited to try this on bronze jewelry! Thank you for an awesome video!
are you familiar with the "Chladni plate experiment"? They vibrate a metal plate with sand on top at a various frequencies and it creates these interesting geometric patterns. I imagine you could do the same with salt on a copper plate before exposing it to the ammonia
Edit: apparently they do this with violin and guitar shaped plates to visualize how the instrument resonates. The patterns generated for an acoustic guitar shape is pretty uninteresting, though. Maybe you'd get different results with an electric guitar shape, or perhaps you could etch the patterns before cutting the out the shape
That must be the prettiest effect yet. Long live the copper phase!
à chacun son goût, i guess
I've not been a fan of the previous "steam-punk" copper tops but if Ben's experimentation produces more like this one I'm all for the copper phase continuing.
Any chance you could template out a design in just mustard and then do like a floral and vine type pattern... I recon that would look awesome
I wonder if you could convince a cnc machine to print a floral pattern in mustard? :)
yeah, i suppose a carnation made from mustard would look really cool.
Great job! What's the best way to cut copper of a silhouette of a person
If you took the time, you could paint with mustard land forms and salt for water to create a map. Middle earth map on a guitar with the tree logo in pearl inlay would be amazing. I would so love a copper Tolkien guitar... Can't afford one so I may have to make it. Unless Ben beats me to it lol
Ohh, that's a neat idea
Stunning. And hilarious. I won't wee on the copper thanks to you; you've saved me a night in the nick at least :)
Ben Crowe: Luthier & _MAD SCIENTIST_
What did you use to cut the copper? I t looks real smooth. Im using scroll saw and have to sand a bunch.
That was amazing!!
Thanks for showing us you innovations !! Cheers.
I've done a few copper tops in the last couple of months and the only other ingredient I used was bicarbonate of soda which pushes the electric blues into greener tones compared to the salt on its own. I've also found the longer ye leave the copper in the fume box (12 hrs+) the blacker the background copper goes. I also sand the copper to 120/240 which seems to give the patina a slightly better bite on the surface when it comes to wash down time. Love what you're doing anyway,can't wait to see the 'mustard-top' finish if ye do it! All the best..
how do you protect the copper after the treatment ? I have tried oil, shellac and other kinds of lacquer - it kills the colors completely
Jeppe Carlsen Unfortunately I think this is a part of the process that no matter what you use it's gonna affect the colour of your patina. I use lacquer mostly and do actually like the way it can knock some of the chalkier, pale blues down to a deeper, electric blue colour but I definitely lose a lot of the more subtle colours along the way. Laying it down in very thin coats may help retain them but it's difficult to maintain exactly what comes out of the fumebox through to the finished article in my experience.
Thank you so much for your reply :-) ... I have only done tests with copperleaf which is very delicate - one hour in the fumebox is all it can take before it disintegrates fully ... I spray it with saltwater and keep it in the chamber with a coup of ammoniac beside it. Maybe this is why my color disappears almost completely .. because it isn't that strong to begin with :-) .. which chemicals do you use ?
Jeppe Carlsen Yeah I had a feeling copper leaf might be difficult to work with patina wise but I'm sure if you get your chemicals/time in the fumebox just right it could work!
I use sheet copper which is about 0.6mm thick so it can stand up to a bit of abuse but its still easy enough to work with. And if I don't like the way a patina turns out I can sand it back and start again. As for the chemicals, I line the bottom of the fumebox with paper towel sprayed with ammonia (household grade works fine), then I use a spray bottle of ammonia, used to mix salt in with this but its not essential. Also I prefer a bottle that gives a mist rather than small droplets, gives nicer gradations if you're leaving some copper areas without patina. Then its a matter of spraying the copper with this, sprinkling salt and/or bicarb of soda where ye want it and into the box. If you're doin the mustard trick you apply this before any ammonia.
I hope that's helpful in some way, I know its more expensive but I think the thicker sheet copper is a lot more forgiving when doin patina work, it won't fall apart on you if you leave it too long in the box etc, so if the copper leaf doesn't work out I'd recommend trying that. Good luck!
thank you so much :-) - I'll experiment with it :-)
Wire wool is GREAT for polishing wood to a nice satin finish! Especially the type without soap.
Great video! I’m confused though. It wasn’t as bright when you were neutralizing w water. When did it get so bright and also after you rubbed some 3D off did you just let it dry and then seal it w a laquer or something?
I like the colour of the water as you were washing that off. You might try using that as a stain. I'm sure the colour would evolve in light.
Hey! Amazing!!!! What coating do you recommend to avoid the loss of the rusty effect while you working in the body? Of course later you have to use lacquer, but in the meantime? Thanx!
that blue. so nice.
Try Muriatic acid. It's almost instant.
I'll be trying the mustard for that particular colour. Thanks
Hot copper into boiling water gives an AWESOME uniform red patina!! Clean copper fist with 0000 steel wool and then with isopropal alcohol then heat and add to boiling water. Crazy Beautiful affect! Best part no chemicals!
Does this get sanded? What’s your next steps?
Does this get sealed with a vinyl lacquer?
Sulfur leaves a gorgeous patina
i normaly use a solution of vinager and hydrogen peroxide and store it in a spray bottle. then i use salt for the coloring
Love the copper! But not really the amount on a single guitar. I think a dark wood like some bog wood with a patina copper either pick guard in a strat style or inlay up the fret board?
fun experiment. Try copper sulfate, vinegar, and Hydrogen peroxide. Even try a little 5-10-5 fertilizer.
Maybe the Calorina Reaper chilli pepper would react? I'm no metallurgist though. It would make a hot guitar though... I'll get my coat...
I would love to see this in a guitar build video!
You should get in touch with Gav from Corrosive Creations. Some of the finishes he has created are incredible and he might be able to pass on some knowledge. Alcohol inks also look incredible on copper!
Does Aldi mustard work as well as Colman's?
Beautiful! Thank you for making this video.
Spraying it must be cool
How do you cut out the copper top? Are you using a router bit round a template?
what are you sealing it with?
I want a guitar with THAT finish on soooooo bad, just wish I could afford it! Ben, HG headstone cleaning solution might just be worth a shoofty at Crimson, judging by the mess it made of my (steel) tools when it leaked into a (thankfully old) toolbox of mine, it just might make an interesting solution to degrade the copper!
Ever thought about trying lichtenberg wood burning on a guitar body? Think it would make an awesome finish.
Will this colour stay as we´ve seen at the end?
Hi Ben, have you tried oxidising copper leaf?
Is it too thin , will it need to have any surface oxidising taken off first which I guess would result in sanding through the leaf?
Also how likely is ammonia used in ths way likely to effect the glue for the set neck and binding on a guitar or the size used for the copper leaf and maybe paint underneath?
Damn, I'm creating more questions tas per usual, haha.
What happens when you put the ammonia on first then "paint" with the mustard and salt?
Great video, thanks so much for sharing your experiment! Is it safe to touch the copper after this treatment? I.e. if I used this technique to colour copper jewelery would it be ok to wear?
normally for jewelry you don't splash the ammonia directly on the copper, although some people spray a solution of ammonia vinegar and salt, but just with the fumes it'll do. i then clean it with a bit of water, let it dry out and coat with wax works fine! earrings cime out beautiful. still need to try it with brass.
Does it leave a textured surface or is it still flat? Also how hard wearing is the effect I'm guessing that you would want to lacquer it afterwards but would it come of with handling without the lacquer?
yes it will come off and you have to remember something everyone leaves out or doesnt know verdigris (green/blue) on copper is actually toxic
Personally I'm not a big fan of the random splotching effects, but the blue that the salt goes when exposed to ammonia is stunning - you could do some really fantastic effects with masking templates off and getting some clean shapes with it.
I'd even like to see an entire top done evenly in it.
My thoughts exactly!
cool!
Very cool!
I do mostly steampunk props (Arcane Armoury)and I machine copper and brass all the time..built a steampunk guitar :)..but those blues are amazing..okay I need some amonia now...
I recently started to look into coloring wood the way it was done a couple hundred years ago (the array of colors is impressive) - the issue is sourcing the materials. Ever since 9-11 it's getting harder and harder to buy "chemistry" - whether it can be used for "ill intent" or not. One company would not / could not sell to me because I didn't own a website!!! Insane.....
Great vid - I'd love to see someone make a top where they just left it hanging outside for a year and sprayed it with vinegar every day.....
It seems the Vinegar & Iron blackening reaction is easy enough to source.. heck, I have that in my kitchen already,
but whats a good / simple / cheap bleaching juice to gray-white wash woods?
Ferric nitrate / aquafortis is good for treating woods with a decent tannin content, but it does't work on everything, and it doesn't have consistent results (again, because it reacts with tannins) - and it also requires heat to "bloom" the color. It's great for maple if you want shades of brown, or walnut if you want it to look like ebony.
But your ask on "bleaching / gray-whitewash" is a bit confusing / contradictory. Bleaching I do with a 2 part solution of lye and concentrated (like 30%) hydrogen peroxide. But if you want to "gray" as in age wood, again in high tannin woods you can do so with simple "lime water" (calcium hydroxide/hydrated lime) - works great on mahogany and walnut. If you're talking oak simple iron water will work - iron will turn oak black. The only true white-wash I've seen is milk paint - but it's a pigment so you're going to cover the grain to an extent.
Annato (the spice) in alcohol will turn mahogany a really nice red.
My kitchen cupboard doesnt have Lye & 30% hydrogen peroxide.
Its bothersome that laundry bleach wont whiten wood... what am I to do if I get a oak stain on my shirt?
I havent put a saw to wood in 20years, but Bens vids _INSPIRE_ me to try building a guitar.
As you proved in a previous video wet paper towels affects the copper. You could easily make your redundant Ccrimson logo of paper and get it to react onto the copper. It would look cool but people would still wonder who Charlie Crimson was.
Try mashed up boiled egg,guys used to use this to patina copper mechanical mods gives a marbled effect.your welcome,website called planetofthevapes has pics of copper patina with egg.looks lit
Just a recommendation. Use swimmer goggles when handling ammonia. It will keep it from reaching your eyes in the first place, and they still provide good production from other shit for your eyes.
Liver of Sulfer will make an interesting effect on copper, also it's nearly instantaneous so no waiting :D
+Daniel De La Pena I though that was a more uniform brownish patina.. An image search though had proved I will have to play with some though. Thanks for the heads up! B
Mustard is for the vinegar? It means back to the drawing board. I believe some of the materials worked against each other and made a giant mess. But messes are fun. Try 2 or 3 ingredients to avoid a vomit result.
Gorgeous 🥰😍
So the recipe for Awesome Sauce is Mustard and Ammonia? I'll have to try some on my dinner 8-)
Awesome
Gorgeous :)
You should make the 17 string for Jared dines
think this "joke" is getting pretty stale by now.
Anonymous Prime who
Anonymous Prime seems to be haunting guitar oriented YT channels and posting this same "comment" over and over" That's why i replied as above. Somehow i think you will see this same comment again in the future.
>sees "mustard" in title
Cool, you're gonna use mustard gas! Brutal!
>Ben daubs actual mustard onto copper
Oh.
Try to put garlic slice and onion rings. The effect is way better than mustard.
You have to be a chemist to be a luthier! :-)
4:18 I can see Zeus head in the left corner )
Does lemon create any interesting effect?
I was thinking you could even cut some slices and leave them on the copper for a while, and it might create nice circles
If you heat up copper and quench it in a mix of borax and water it turns pink
Is that a back scratcher? Haha
🤘😎🤘
Mayonnaise? :D
Excuse me good sir but are you south African at all, you sound like one of us 😂
Watered down soy sauce. Miracle grow
You may want to research chemical reactions before putting together random chemicals/ingredients.
don't mix ammonia and nitrate fertilizer together, you are making a explosive if you do, not a really good idea. You probably have heard of ammonium nitrate.
Congratulations, you're one of todays lucky 10,000 :)
Ammonium nitrate is NOT an explosive, in fact it is the "fertiliser" version of regular ammonia.
I presume the explosive you're referring to is ANFO, which stands for "Ammonium nitrate fuel oil" and is a mixture of the aforementioned ammonium nitrate and a fuel oil such a diesel.
As an explosive ANFO is really popular, constituting 80% of all explosives used in North America.
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate
xkcd.com/1053/
Sorry, nice tries, but it is one step away from plastic. Where is natures look of honest wood? Sorry, but I don't like this way the direction of beautifull guitars is going. Greetings Rob
It seems to me you could get the same result with paint and if you werent happy with the result you could simply remove the paint. PS I wouldn't own anything that ugly.
Experimenting is fun. Ben