"I'm not saying Eiheiji is a cult compound, but Eiheiji is a cult compound." Its more like a factory...cranking out functionaries to perform in the religion business. Whats astounding about the book is that no one seems to know why they are there...at Eiheiji. There is little talk about Buddhism from both disciples and teachers. When the author finally leaves, he has no idea why he came, or what happened. Nor does anyone else care why. A total poverty of meaning.
I loved "Eat sleep sit" and am glad you're talking about it. It made me think about the parallels between my own experiences in (semi-)monastic Zen Buddhist settings and the experiences my dad reports about going through the US Marine Corps boot camp at Parris Island in the 1960s. Even though no one is going to hit you in an American Zen center for entering the zendo incorrectly, often there are a lot of very constraining rules that seem to pervade every single aspect of your life while you're at the temple. Especially in the context of a 5- or 7-day sesshin, it always feels to me like there's this "initiation" period in the beginning during which the schedule is extremely taxing and draining, but after a few days you "give up" and there can sometimes follow a kind of sublime sense of togetherness with the schedule and the other people adhering to it, once you yield to it and stop constantly trying to make things be the way you want them. Somewhat oddly, this is pretty much exactly how my dad talks about his experience in the military, and I think it's very likely that military service is such an important milestone in the lives of so many people because of these kinds of experiences, where you're in this container that allows you to give up your egocentric mind and see something greater. I'd be curious to know if you've thought about this.
"Even though no one is going to hit you in an American Zen center" Thats only because the trainees are paying for the air-conditioning. In ancient times, temples were funded by the State. Follow the money.
Hi from New Zealand ! I had family who was in the military. I totally agree with you about the similarity in the treatment that the author describes in the book. I wasn't sure if I should buy it or not. Now I'll definitely will.
When I went through Marine boot camp back in the 70's the drill instructors treated us like dirt. We weren't hit but they yelled at us constantly and told how incompetent and worthless we were. This went on for all three months of boot camp. They did this to break us down and remold us into what they wanted us to be. I hated going through it but after it was all done I loved to brag about how tough it was. (As did most of my fellow Marines. We would laugh about who had the worst experiences.) So it seems very similar to Zen monk training.
Muho does a great series about life at Antaiji - and how hard it is. NOT the “easy life”. I think retreats there involve sitting 15 hours a day, plus massive amounts of work and study.
Like many have in the comments section, I went through Army enlisted and officer basic training many years ago. Restructuring the individual psyche to carry out orders without questioning and just act is a large part of it. Although back in the day, I received a few slaps. Plus, the drill instructors relied on us to keep discipline in the ranks. Execute orders as a unit and conduct one’s self as such. Yes, there are similarities between the military and Japanese Zen initiate training but there are large differences. Both rely on institutionalism. I found it curious that when you read Dogen’s passage used Curly and Moe’s names to replace masters’ names in the story. I do the same thing, except I like using the Marx Brothers. This was a especially useful when I read Lin ji. Not only did it make it funnier, but a lot easier to inculcate the stories into understanding. For one Zen talk, I restructured some of Lin ji’s stories as a play using the Marx brothers and others as characters. It was entertaining and successful in relaying understanding. Fun stuff Have fun and a good laugh!
the most impressive thing about eihei-ji is how unhealthy the climate is, especially for TB the sort of training described in that book is in fact military designed to render soldiers obedient where there's a high probability of being killed or injured, which, given zen's historical involvement with samurai, its hardly surprising zen is in fact a cult and being in a cult does extreme mental violence to the brain brad is not a cultist as evidenced by him not removing this comment critical of zen unlike some commenters here who would remove it if they could
I remember Kung Fu! Hell, I have the series on DVD. Loved it as a kid and appreciated it a lot more as an adult. It certainly played a role in my wanting to learn what "meditation" was all about, as Caine is shown several times sitting.
It’s like the military. Break down the civilian to remold him as a soldier. I went through this myself at the Air Force Academy. Beating was not allowed but there are plenty of other ways to make someone physically uncomfortable without striking them.
"From the beginning, self-annihilation has been an important task imposed on Zen monks" What is it that annihilates the self? Annihilation is derived from nihilism. Is Buddhism an expression of nihilism? Is beating the monks an example of mortification? Isnt this exactly what Buddha warned against...both mortification and indulgence?
Two words sharing a root word, doesn't mean one derives from the other. It means they both derive from that root. And they don't mean the same thing, or there would be no need for two words. This kind of thinking leads to that "strings on the corkboard" type of conspiracy thinking. It feels like you are making intellectual leaps, but you're really just making up connections that aren't there.
@@ernststravoblofeld . "It means they both derive from that root. And they don't mean the same thing, or there would be no need for two words." There's a need for two words that mean the same thing because they have different applications. In this case, the two words 'annihilation' and 'nihilism' are only differentiated by their endings...making one an action and the other a principle. Same meaning...different application. The action is derived from the principle.
I think it is very teacher-specific. I practise in Chan and the teachers I know seem to be rather warm and helpful people that wouldn't slap a fly. There is a teacher though, who engages such methods on daily basis, not only when a student is at the verge. It's being said he does it out of compassion. Relating this to what you said: he still is a teacher, not a monk with relatively little experience, as in the Eiheiji case.
Kosho Uchiyama quotes Dogen Zenji (Regulations for the officers) in his book Opening the Hand of Thought going along with what you're saying: Fayuan approached Guixing. “We’ve had to walk more than a thousand miles to get here. Don’t think that you can drive us away by beating us or by splashing a little water on us.” How might someone know the difference between ego driven punishment (look at me I'm suffering to face reality) vs "encountering the reality of life"?
It sounds no different than the kind of hazing you’d find in a military academy (or many fraternities & sororities). So you’re seeing more of a ‘reversion to the mean’ than any great misinterpretation of enlightenment techniques. Unless, of course, if that’s what everyone means hazing to be. There is a longstanding tendency throughout society (especially ‘academic societies) for each generation to want to put the next generation though the same set of ‘hoops’ that they went through themselves to ‘earn their stripes.’ It’s not hard to see how readily this intent can be confounded with a well-intentioned desire to ‘toughen up’ those who follow-on in the tradition(s).
In this interview Bill Porter says zen is very much alive and well in China. He talks about some of the differences between Japanese and Chinese monasteries, referring to the sort of thing you talk about here at about 25 minutes in: ruclips.net/video/YajeC8NjqTE/видео.html
I understand that letting others slap you is a method of challenging your ego that is supposed to lead to its eradication. I think I still prefer "Know Thyself" over "Eradicate yourself".
@@TheJedynak "I don't see any point in your question. Soon you will ask me koans here." Its not a koan. You have a mind dont you? Can you see it? If the answer is no...how then can you "know thyself"?
As others have said similar things, it all reminds me strongly of the dynamic in high school sports teams here in Japan. As soon as I read it, I recognized it. However, in contrast, Gesshin Greenwood's account of her time in the training convent in Nagoya sounds quite different from Eiheiji. I don't know if the gender difference accounts for this.
Cool beans. But in my (limited) experience in china (off and on since 1999) Zen in China has many faces & forms, many of them (like ceremonial stuff I saw & participated in at the 6th Ancestor's temple) are still a happening deal. Red Pine might agree with me a little. Great post, Brad. I doubt very much that Vietnamese Zen training temples yank or push or kick. But my teacher did holler at me (I needed it) in front of everyone at a Beginner's Mind Sesshin once. IDK but I think there is a lot of hypermasculinity in Japanese daily life practice, but it gets softened up with humor and jabs from women's point(s) of view. I think. Great post, Brad. Thanks!
I've read stories about Zen monasteries where they hit students with bamboo sticks during meditation,probably if they start falling asleep I'd guess. This seems very severe and beside the point of enlightenment. I can see the purpose of violence in the military. I do not understand it in Buddhist practice. Aren't Buddhists supposed to practice non-violence? How would striking or name- calling help them reach beyond their ego self? It's confusing.
My assumption was that the violence came out of Chinese “Lin-Ji”(i.e. “Rinzai”) style monasteries where there was a belief in “sudden enlightenment”…that a shock of some kind can produce a sudden enlightenment experience. Certainly there are many old Chinese stories reflecting this belief… So I was surprised to read of this stuff happening at a Soto/Dogen/Shikantaza style monastery (Eihei-ji) where the belief is in “gradual enlightenment” and goalless “just sitting”…
I loved Kung Fu when I was really little. I kicked a fly on a window and broke it, somehow not getting hurt. I really liked how he always walked around all calm, but then when he had to, he would kick butt. The reboot with his son... not so good. :)
I seriously doubt Guatama would approve of such methods. I’ll punch you in the face and say it was for teaching. I doubt my teacher (Kobun) Went around hitting and slapping junior monks while he was there. Buddhism teaches compassion. Abuse isn’t compassion. I liked the book and the insights into the daily life there.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
"All cruelty springs from weakness.'' -Seneca. Don't let anyone abuse you, no matter what.
"I'm not saying Eiheiji is a cult compound, but Eiheiji is a cult compound."
Its more like a factory...cranking out functionaries to perform in the religion business.
Whats astounding about the book is that no one seems to know why they are there...at Eiheiji.
There is little talk about Buddhism from both disciples and teachers.
When the author finally leaves, he has no idea why he came, or what happened.
Nor does anyone else care why.
A total poverty of meaning.
that seems to be the point. to get rid of the self.
@@amadlover What is it that gets rid of the self?
I loved "Eat sleep sit" and am glad you're talking about it. It made me think about the parallels between my own experiences in (semi-)monastic Zen Buddhist settings and the experiences my dad reports about going through the US Marine Corps boot camp at Parris Island in the 1960s. Even though no one is going to hit you in an American Zen center for entering the zendo incorrectly, often there are a lot of very constraining rules that seem to pervade every single aspect of your life while you're at the temple. Especially in the context of a 5- or 7-day sesshin, it always feels to me like there's this "initiation" period in the beginning during which the schedule is extremely taxing and draining, but after a few days you "give up" and there can sometimes follow a kind of sublime sense of togetherness with the schedule and the other people adhering to it, once you yield to it and stop constantly trying to make things be the way you want them.
Somewhat oddly, this is pretty much exactly how my dad talks about his experience in the military, and I think it's very likely that military service is such an important milestone in the lives of so many people because of these kinds of experiences, where you're in this container that allows you to give up your egocentric mind and see something greater. I'd be curious to know if you've thought about this.
"Even though no one is going to hit you in an American Zen center"
Thats only because the trainees are paying for the air-conditioning.
In ancient times, temples were funded by the State.
Follow the money.
Hi from New Zealand ! I had family who was in the military. I totally agree with you about the similarity in the treatment that the author describes in the book. I wasn't sure if I should buy it or not. Now I'll definitely will.
When I went through Marine boot camp back in the 70's the drill instructors treated us like dirt. We weren't hit but they yelled at us constantly and told how incompetent and worthless we were. This went on for all three months of boot camp. They did this to break us down and remold us into what they wanted us to be. I hated going through it but after it was all done I loved to brag about how tough it was. (As did most of my fellow Marines. We would laugh about who had the worst experiences.) So it seems very similar to Zen monk training.
Muho does a great series about life at Antaiji - and how hard it is. NOT the “easy life”. I think retreats there involve sitting 15 hours a day, plus massive amounts of work and study.
Like many have in the comments section, I went through Army enlisted and officer basic training many years ago. Restructuring the individual psyche to carry out orders without questioning and just act is a large part of it. Although back in the day, I received a few slaps. Plus, the drill instructors relied on us to keep discipline in the ranks. Execute orders as a unit and conduct one’s self as such. Yes, there are similarities between the military and Japanese Zen initiate training but there are large differences. Both rely on institutionalism.
I found it curious that when you read Dogen’s passage used Curly and Moe’s names to replace masters’ names in the story. I do the same thing, except I like using the Marx Brothers. This was a especially useful when I read Lin ji. Not only did it make it funnier, but a lot easier to inculcate the stories into understanding. For one Zen talk, I restructured some of Lin ji’s stories as a play using the Marx brothers and others as characters. It was entertaining and successful in relaying understanding. Fun stuff
Have fun and a good laugh!
the most impressive thing about eihei-ji is how unhealthy the climate is, especially for TB
the sort of training described in that book is in fact military designed to render soldiers obedient where there's a high probability of being killed or injured, which, given zen's historical involvement with samurai, its hardly surprising
zen is in fact a cult and being in a cult does extreme mental violence to the brain
brad is not a cultist as evidenced by him not removing this comment critical of zen
unlike some commenters here who would remove it if they could
All religions are cults. All are nonsense.
I remember Kung Fu! Hell, I have the series on DVD. Loved it as a kid and appreciated it a lot more as an adult. It certainly played a role in my wanting to learn what "meditation" was all about, as Caine is shown several times sitting.
Wow you have it on dvd AND you remember it?! Go figure lol
Great series. Cain's teacher master PO was a Chinese Shaolin monastery teacher. They seemed very calm and benevolent in that series.
Best Endiggy I remember. Meaty topic and then THAT send off 🙏😆
Ziggy Dog really loves your new backyard!
He does!
It’s like the military. Break down the civilian to remold him as a soldier. I went through this myself at the Air Force Academy. Beating was not allowed but there are plenty of other ways to make someone physically uncomfortable without striking them.
That book is amazing.
Anyone know if Steve Jobs ever visited Eihei-ji? I heard he really wanted to. Maybe that’s where he got his management style from…!😆😂🤣
My top hairstyling tip is to only use shampoo once a week, top max - you're welcome 😊
"From the beginning, self-annihilation has been an important task imposed on Zen monks"
What is it that annihilates the self?
Annihilation is derived from nihilism.
Is Buddhism an expression of nihilism?
Is beating the monks an example of mortification?
Isnt this exactly what Buddha warned against...both mortification and indulgence?
Two words sharing a root word, doesn't mean one derives from the other. It means they both derive from that root. And they don't mean the same thing, or there would be no need for two words.
This kind of thinking leads to that "strings on the corkboard" type of conspiracy thinking. It feels like you are making intellectual leaps, but you're really just making up connections that aren't there.
@@ernststravoblofeld . "It means they both derive from that root. And they don't mean the same thing, or there would be no need for two words."
There's a need for two words that mean the same thing because they have different applications.
In this case, the two words 'annihilation' and 'nihilism' are only differentiated by their endings...making one an action and the other a principle. Same meaning...different application. The action is derived from the principle.
I think it is very teacher-specific. I practise in Chan and the teachers I know seem to be rather warm and helpful people that wouldn't slap a fly. There is a teacher though, who engages such methods on daily basis, not only when a student is at the verge. It's being said he does it out of compassion. Relating this to what you said: he still is a teacher, not a monk with relatively little experience, as in the Eiheiji case.
rest in present awareness be still close eyes listen to your breathing do no harm help others.
I seem to remember some other artist performing that song but now I forget… who was that guy again?
Kosho Uchiyama quotes Dogen Zenji (Regulations for the officers) in his book Opening the Hand of Thought going along with what you're saying: Fayuan approached Guixing. “We’ve had to walk more than a thousand miles to get here. Don’t think that you can drive us away by beating us or by splashing a little water on us.” How might someone know the difference between ego driven punishment (look at me I'm suffering to face reality) vs "encountering the reality of life"?
A video about the weird time stuff would be nice
It sounds no different than the kind of hazing you’d find in a military academy (or many fraternities & sororities). So you’re seeing more of a ‘reversion to the mean’ than any great misinterpretation of enlightenment techniques.
Unless, of course, if that’s what everyone means hazing to be. There is a longstanding tendency throughout society (especially ‘academic societies) for each generation to want to put the next generation though the same set of ‘hoops’ that they went through themselves to ‘earn their stripes.’ It’s not hard to see how readily this intent can be confounded with a well-intentioned desire to ‘toughen up’ those who follow-on in the tradition(s).
In this interview Bill Porter says zen is very much alive and well in China. He talks about some of the differences between Japanese and Chinese monasteries, referring to the sort of thing you talk about here at about 25 minutes in: ruclips.net/video/YajeC8NjqTE/видео.html
Interesting video, thanks for the link.
Good discussion.
The casual acceptance of abuse is a key part of sect dynamics. There are rationalizations of course.
It’s about breaking the ego, maybe? Sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Making the monks mentally tough.
the teachings more fully. Maybe 🤔
I understand that letting others slap you is a method of challenging your ego that is supposed to lead to its eradication. I think I still prefer "Know Thyself" over "Eradicate yourself".
Can you see your mind?
@Deerheart Actually I think they are aiming at the same thing. Dogen: "To study the self is to forget the self."
@Deerheart I never claimed otherwise.
@@Teller3448 I don't see any point in your question. Soon you will ask me koans here.
@@TheJedynak "I don't see any point in your question. Soon you will ask me koans here."
Its not a koan. You have a mind dont you? Can you see it?
If the answer is no...how then can you "know thyself"?
As others have said similar things, it all reminds me strongly of the dynamic in high school sports teams here in Japan. As soon as I read it, I recognized it. However, in contrast, Gesshin Greenwood's account of her time in the training convent in Nagoya sounds quite different from Eiheiji. I don't know if the gender difference accounts for this.
I don't think that the training is exactly the same in all the temples.
Cool beans. But in my (limited) experience in china (off and on since 1999) Zen in China has many faces & forms, many of them (like ceremonial stuff I saw & participated in at the 6th Ancestor's temple) are still a happening deal. Red Pine might agree with me a little. Great post, Brad. I doubt very much that Vietnamese Zen training temples yank or push or kick. But my teacher did holler at me (I needed it) in front of everyone at a Beginner's Mind Sesshin once. IDK but I think there is a lot of hypermasculinity in Japanese daily life practice, but it gets softened up with humor and jabs from women's point(s) of view. I think. Great post, Brad. Thanks!
Thank you. That's interesting.
So, it's the front porch of the Fight Club house?
I've read stories about Zen monasteries where they hit students with bamboo sticks during meditation,probably if they start falling asleep I'd guess. This seems very severe and beside the point of enlightenment. I can see the purpose of violence in the military. I do not understand it in Buddhist practice. Aren't Buddhists supposed to practice non-violence? How would striking or name- calling help them reach beyond their ego self? It's confusing.
My assumption was that the violence came out of Chinese “Lin-Ji”(i.e. “Rinzai”) style monasteries where there was a belief in “sudden enlightenment”…that a shock of some kind can produce a sudden enlightenment experience. Certainly there are many old Chinese stories reflecting this belief…
So I was surprised to read of this stuff happening at a Soto/Dogen/Shikantaza style monastery (Eihei-ji) where the belief is in “gradual enlightenment” and goalless “just sitting”…
I loved Kung Fu when I was really little. I kicked a fly on a window and broke it, somehow not getting hurt. I really liked how he always walked around all calm, but then when he had to, he would kick butt. The reboot with his son... not so good. :)
"Time is carving you Grasshopper...let yourself be shaped according to your true nature." -Master Po.
I just took those examples as allegories and not “verbatim” ways to treat students.
Frenetic Random Activity Period (FRAP) aka the zoomies
Is that the official name?
yes
Lol! I would certainly fall into the “bum looking for an easy life” category. I wouldn’t last a day at a place like that. Sounds horrible.
I seriously doubt Guatama would approve of such methods. I’ll punch you in the face and say it was for teaching. I doubt my teacher (Kobun) Went around hitting and slapping junior monks while he was there. Buddhism teaches compassion. Abuse isn’t compassion. I liked the book and the insights into the daily life there.
Could Japan's militarism of the mid-20th century have contributed to the violence you speak of, i.e. providing a boot camp mentality influence?
You can probably go back to at least the feudal era. The imperial Japanese military injected bushido (and samurai worship) into everyday life.
salary man = wagie, for the gen Zers
Non prepared supposed masters slapping non prepared student's faces just propagates the whole "nonpreparation" thing. This is sad and unnecessary...
lil outa tune :-p
Not even a tiny bit.
No wrong notes in jazz, punk, or zen :-)
@@yogimango5824 YES!