But you know, that goes for every single job ever. If you don't have a relationship, let alone kids, to worry about, you can give more of your time and energy into the company you work for. Imagine if every workplace mandated no dating policy, there'd be a relationship crisis followed by a drop in births- oh, right, we're talking about Japan
It always ticks me off a bit, only pinning birth rates to japan. Several european countries have worse birth rates (like italy), and bad birth rates are present across the western world.
@@NambarkMy understanding is its not just the rate itself, but the decline over time. Japan used to have a much higher birth rate so the issue is that the elderly who can't work now greatly outnumber the younger working population.
@@Nambarkit should, but the reason it's talked about the most with japan is that while it's a problem in many countries, it's much worse in Japan than it is almost anywhere else due to just how awful their work culture is, and because that work culture itself derives from a culture that already places groups above individuals in terms of value, and this isn't helped by the older generations extreme xenophobia
Given the context that idol groups started out as talent academies for highschoolers, it makes sense that they would be encouraged to focus on themselves instead of getting distracted by relationships. It's basically what any parent tells their kid once they start college, especially the ones aiming for law or medicine. It's unfortunate that agencies turned something innocent into a distorted part of the brand aimed to attract the parasocial freaks of a fanbase.
That's something I really want to have change. Unfortunately, the willingness to do anything to change that isn't there. Their never going to be willing to make the hard choices.
At least over here in Germany that's not the case. Parents don't tell you to not date if you go to university for law or medicine. Not a thing over here. Our laywers and doctors are considered to be on par with every other big Western industrial country. We also have enough graduates in these fields. If it works for us, then i probably would work for others as well.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmoomstheir bank relies on the parasocial fans so nothing will ever change, idols knows that and it has been a part of culture in East Asia.
@@8S1ns You think I didn't recognize that problem? That's part of why I said they would never make the hard choices. Mind you, it would eventually correct itself with money. By ditching that it would bring in new fans and lots of them. Those new ones may not spend as much individually but collectively it would make up for the loss. They would just need to hold out for a period of time to allow things to correct themselves. Now how do I know there are people who would replace the freaks? Because there are lots of people that don't want anything to do with idols because of the extreme parasocial aspect. Once that's gone the biggest problem they have would be solved. There are people who have other problems that would get in the way, but it would be enough to compensate.
I wouldn't call it totally innocent. Sure it's not as bad as the parasocial aspect, but preventing someone from having a personal life outside of their job isn't really a great thing regardless of good intentions.
The good things for virtual idols is they managed to find a way to relax the rules while still maintain the immersion. You can date, get married, divorced, etc but don't ever whine or bring the issues on stream. And company is clear that outside stream, they don't intervene how the idols are living their life as long as it won't bring trouble for them or company. The irl idols don't have that privilege because they have papparazzi everywhere Brilliant clip and good take from Geega btw.
I can actually understand this origin and it makes sense in my head, but only when kept within the context that this is not meant to be a long-term thing. If you knew that it was ONLY going to be 3-5 years and after that time you would amass the skills and connections to go off on your own and do whatever then it kind of makes sense because you could be seen as being on that "grindset" that could set you up for the rest of your life. Oddly enough, we have seen this with many Vtubers as of late where they do grind it out with an agency only to go off on their own (or join another different agency) after several years and being able to maintain many of those connections while fully utilizing all the skills that they've acquired to hopefully be able to sustain doing their own thing at their own pace.
indeed "work stuff" which is basically common across an entire culture is basically just work culture and work culture shapes the entire culture and society of a region. The differences in societal thinking about different matters or actions between say Japan and some Western country is a direct result of their work culture
This is normal in any entertainment industry. As a young actor back in the early 2000s, I was encouraged to break my relationship of the time off over and over by different agencies and also by the Union because it would help boost popularity and likelihood of getting roles. "availability" is indeed an attracting factor and so when its all about the role and the job, then the relationship restriction has to be paramount.
was it worth it? I get the reasons but a part of me finds it a bit controlling or absurd. like I would be like "ok fine whatever just as long as the partner isn't abusive, controlling, or sabotaging it"
Encouraging your young women employees to end relationships sounds like a way for creepy employers like Harvey Weinstein to remove inconvenient barriers to sexually violating said women.
Whenever I hear these thresholds or “while you’re young”, it’s hard to think that way cause it’s not like you get multiple attempts at life, you only have one life
Also kinda telling that she seems to never had any real struggles socially. Because that is also a skill that needs to be fostered. Most peoploe can't just forego creating relationships in early life and just somehow be proficient at it when they are adults. That will set them back massively and maybe ruin any chance they ever had, know from experience.
One thing is self-choice, but some of those companies literally want to own the talents to a creepy degree even more than stalkers... and there is quite a lot of that even today
Dating does get in the way. Especially when you're trying to work on a personal project. A lot of people just want all your attention and time when you start dating and they get annoyed if you try to focus on work or art while dating.
That's not even just idol groups. That goes for a LOT of athletes as well, specifically young people training for the Olympics. It also tends to be mostly skewed toward female athletes, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but a lot of people in the athletic scene I've spoken to over the years have said teenage boys and/or young men are better at focusing the sport while having a girlfriend than teenage girls and/or young women having a boyfriend. The coach wants that person's undivided attention, and while I think idol groups take it WAY too far, it's not uncommon even today in the sports world.
This is the biggest reason I can't live in Japan as a unretired person. You MUST work and live for the job over there, that is necessary but its the work culture over there. I did moderate research while learning(and failing) to learn Japanese to see IF I could move there. I don't have it in me to survive their work culture. It's INSANE what goes into every day to day job. Like, if you take biggest ass kisser you've ever known over there. They'd still be inadequate in the eyes of the culture over there. Not just by their superiors, but by their peers too. It is insanely different from the west that you really need understand your role and place otherwise you'd be a piraha ready to be replaced. Different culture, different values. Still working on it and might retire over there!
And it's not even effective. Japan has some of the lowest productivity rates in the developed world. Who would have guess that putting human beings into an environment not conducive to human health would _f*cking harm them..._
Maybe. But as for EN and Vtubers, I don't watch them because of "idol things". I watch them because they are streamers with anime avatars. And to be honest, I really don't like the idol culture. Some companies are trying to bring it to EN, but it's a sick thing. Even the idea of it is sick.
As a workforce management/cultural thing yeah that makes sense. To be honest the thing that most creeps me out about the idol scene is when the fans are shitting on someone because of this kinda thing... it's like bro why you gotta make it weird like that.
So it's about Parasocial anyways LOL. Every single thing about "Living, giving and doing everything for your fans" , is PEAK definition of grooming parasocials 101 LOL. That concept itself, is making sure your fans would be parasocial about Idols. And this toxic concept was born in Japan, Idol is NOT Japan brand exclusive btw, everywhere around the world have Idols, but none are playing this Parasocial game as HARD as Japanese Idols. Other Idols, American Idols for instance, are free to be in relationship with anyone. Nobody give a shiitake even the fans, as long as they can be Professional in producing music and stuffs, they can frick anyone they want.
Idols are inherently parasocial, it's the whole point. They have a relatively niche audience so they need high income per customer compared to more generic entertainers.
> "Living, giving and doing everything for your fans" Yes and no. Idol culture is specifically about selling a certain kind of dream to clients, sure, but the "giving everything for fans/art" is hardly exclusive for idols. "Show must go on", after all, is not just a popular song by Queen. It's the way by which many artists, especially young ones in theater, work and abide by. You are sick? Show must go on. You feel bad/depressed? Show must go on. You have problems outside in your life? Put that smile and make up, because Show. Must. Go. On.
Ironically, the original reason for the no dating rule with Idols, sound oddly similar to how Sumo Wrestlers are brought up. When they start out, you are required to live in a stable, have a curfew, even what they are allowed to wear, and only once they rank up, are they granted more and more freedom.
"No time" is why I basically never see my local friends in the city now that we've graduated. The neighbours are all much older than me. Hard to imagine dating without apps. This sucks. :P
It doesn't feel fair to claim that the idols go into it knowingly and choose the harsh conditions for the sake of their future, when in the same statement you also acknowledge all of those idols are teens, some even younger teens that are still dependent on adults in their lives. Does anyone sit them down for a crash course on how to navigate the labor of being an idol? does anyone teach them what to do if their managers pressure them or abuse power? Is it a 15 minute conversation or a several day long course? This is the same old tale of young programmers and artists getting into game development for a dream job where they know they won't be fairly paid but they really want to work for that big studio next to their favorite people. Sure they agree to unfair conditions, but does anyone prepare them for potential future abuse? Does anyone guarantee them success after that damned dream job? After all, does the situation become any less unfair simply because the person agreed to it? Yeah I think not.
Huh. That makes some sense. For so many years I just thought it was because of the immersion and sales thing. I think if this had always been common knowledge and was more out there, it wouldn't have devolved as rapidly into the parasocial aspect over the years as it did. And a lotta folks especially outside Japan looking into this idol culture might not have had immediate negative assumptions about it.
THANK YOU FOR VALIDATING ME. People ostracize me for pointing this shit out like I don't know what I'm talking about omfg... OTL Ugh... I feel catharsis...
i always wondered why quitting/ getting fired was called 'graduation' but now it makes sense if it was something that you were only meant to do when you were young
i think the age group is important too. idols (kpop jpop boybands etc), and also esports with what i'm more familiar with, they look for teenagers either due to the market or since they want to mould them into a successful product or player and these teenagers are suddenly going to get HUGE amounts of attention from people who are fans/obsessed wtih them. in esports some organisations werent as strict with relationship rules it and it just led these nerdy teenagers with no experience in relationships amped up on hormones just have women literally flock to them and, as this person said, have it affect their practice since they're just obsessed and tbh form unhealthy relationships with awkward power dynamics that they arent emotionally equipped to handle. i obviously feel like it should be the talent's choice but i think being famous really fucks with your chance of having a normal relationship
I get the feeling that if Geega ended up with someone that someone would end up bullied/playfully teased by a sassy shortie, settling down just ain't for some people however so whatever keeps people happy and all that good stuff. Currently on the Grindset making a busness myself so I get that, anyone that busy usually isn't actively looking since it'd effect their schedule I figure.
i think is crazy in every way, people treat work like a god that they need to devote themselves to be worth of something, this fucked up your mind if you're not successful, idol industry doing this to such young teens is fucked up
The problem is in Japan it’s still as bad, because if your a popular idol, voice actor, or Vtuber even that if the fans even get a hint your in a relationship, they will burn down your career in a instant. Japanese fans can be to obsessive, think of their favorite idol or vtuber is only meant for them that it becomes crazy, that soon their whole apartment or bed room is like covered in that persona’s stuff, and think that person is only for them. Japan idol fan culture is the reason the term was created, not 100% a relationship thing. Also Japan work culture is a different beast, which needs to change so very badly, as you got people who work 60, 70, to 80 hour work weeks with 6 day or even 7 day work weeks. Japan has laws against this stuff, but it’s sadly isn’t as enforced like it does in other countries. In Japan if your part of group project with your job, even if it’s time to leave the supervisors or managers expect you to stay, as leaving early is considered to be frowned upon as not working as hard as others. Japan’s work culture is ruthless, and uncaring.
That brings into the spotlight one substantial culture shock some Japanese vtubers get: if they appeal to Spanish or Portuguese speakers, they actively WANT them to date and meme about it in encouragement. They always, _always_ get floored by that. I'm not sure if it's the same in SEA (though they're pretty based so I don't doubt it), but that's one point where it's objectively better than Japanese idol chicanery.
@@DinnerForkTongue The constant encouragement is just as bad if you ask me. It's something that should be treated as none of our business. At most a congratulations would be appropriate.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmooms You're thinking this is a lot more serious than the Latinos themselves treat it as. I said we _meme_ about it in encouragement, and that was not a word I picked on accident. It's all in lighthearted fun, and if you don't realize that then you're no Latin American.
@@DinnerForkTongue It's my personal view, that's it. And no, I'm not Latin American, I'm Canadian born and raised. I will state, I don't like it because it's not my business. If you want to do that for fun, that's fine. But to me it doesn't sound fun. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen because of the crazies to me.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmooms In this case you can reserve your feelings. You North Americans have no ground to judge the nuances of a culture that isn't yours when no harm is done, you're not important enough to have that prerogative.
Yep. This is probably why birthrates are going down across the planet. We could kind of get away with the industrial revolution when it was mostly men away from home all the time but now that women are also expected to work full time, EVERYONE is now at their jobs all the time and "needing" to focus on that so a lot of people can't really devote themselves to a family. When we lived in a mostly Agrarian society this wasn't a factor since your house and your property are also where you work. Your family life WAS your job.
I think caring about your oshi's personal relationship is weird either way, but somehow people in support of the talents being relationships are not called out for being too invested in them.
I sometimes see two people collab with really great chemistry and some part of my brain can't help but ship them together. On a general level, if they're dating, that's more juicy content as far as I'm concerned.
My one visit to the vtuber board on 4chan was nightmarish, just an army of Perfect Blue-esque stalkers on the verge of snapping if their favorite streamer collaborated with a man or something. A lot of these people are the big Super Chatters, and some of them are moderators.
In fairness, 4chan prides itself on being the internet's official Wretched Hive. I don't think they should be taken as representative of the culture as a whole.
The no dating rule is a function of capitalism, which only works when people are dehumanized and treat other people as property. Hearing about vtubers dating and navigating building mature, adult relationships would go a long LONG way to helping antisocial weebs stop putting virtual women on pedestals and make them start seeing women as people with rich, full, meaningful lives. Yeah there would be some pushback from individuals that see women as objects, but it takes seeing other men treat women like people to teach men.
@@NevisYsbrydbecause they see them everyday and get crushes and they can buy body pillows and others things due to grown attachment but its always 1-sided then it becomes a parasocial sunk cost fallacy where you spend alot and expect the talent to embrace you more because you spent money on them
Nah, relationships are a problem when you're trying to do something productive. Like if you had a band and one of the members got a girlfriend and became obsessed with her, there's a 50% chance they won't stay in the band. They stop showing up for practice because they're too busy with the girl. It's not dehumanizing to make a pact with a group not to date if you're trying to do something real.
Any company that tries to exert any control on employees off the clock needs to be sued into the ground. It's extreme power abuse imo. (And if the company goes "hurr durr, not an employee" they out themselves as lying because the employee/employer relationship is defined by the control the employer has. Freelancers are people who _independently_ provide a service. The only thing the client gets a say in is the result. I think a lot of Vtubers in western countries could win if they sued for employee rights.)
Schools were segregated by gender as soon as they were invented, in almost every society that did. That definitely came before idol culture, and even modern work practices.
Like... omg... I mean... not even the military in most part of the world would push the narrative "Your romance life would distract you from doing your job, so you need to be single to enlist" right? And this is literally the job that asked you to be willing to sacrifice your life away for it, literally I mean... no hate, but I can't help but comparing the two and find the origin of idol culture to be outrageus, and thank god most military doesn't develop this very mindset (if it's even the case anyway)
To be fair the traditional military logic is that a soldier is more willing to sacrifice themselves to defend their country when they have family in said country so having a spouse/so and/or children is a positive motivator for a soldier in such a circumstance.
@@Alessus95 Yes. _Although,_ having so much to protect can backfire sometimes In war. Specifically if the enemy approaches with an open hand and a good deal, warriors may conclude it would be better to take such a deal then to risk everything in a violent conflict.
@@kjj26k Certainly true, but things are generally weighted against the enemy in their attempt at persuasion since the military would have worked to demonize them, the inherent risk that the enemy could be lying, desertion/switching sides could easily endanger the family because the soldier has now become an enemy of the state his family is in and so forth. Generally speaking defections are most common when the person defecting has little to lose or when they have determined that the cause they are fighting for is lost and are attempting to salvage whatever they can.
Yeah, there's a clip of her going full idol fan mode while playing the Dave the Diver idol mini game ruclips.net/video/cLSVgF11lYw/видео.htmlsi=zaCGk_RU0c_PD_DO
It's a stupid and outdated rule, IMO. It's one thing if it's a personal choice. It's something else entirely if a business demands it of its employees. No job has the right or privilege to even ask anyone to sacrifice everything for them. That is slavery. We are all more than our work. We are humans. And I believe our personal lives are far too precious and valuable to allow any job to invade it. It's only if it becomes a safety issue, then I can agree to it. But I also believe this rule is a contributing factor to toxic parasocial behavior. People get fantasies in their head on meeting their favorite vTubers, because the WHOLE industry is based on fantasy. A little escapism if fine, but a lot of people need a nice big pitcher of ice cold reality poured over their heads - and I can't think of a better way to do that than, "she's already married, bro."
"No job has the right or privilege to even ask anyone to sacrifice everything for them. That is slavery." Dude, seriously no. The only way you have a point is if this was suddenly forced on them out of the blue. But it overwhelmingly isn't. It's a condition you have to agree to if you want to get hired by them. I see absolutely no issue with a company listing specific employment criteria they want to you to abide by if you want to be hired by them. YOU choose to work with them. YOU agree to those conditions. How TF is that in any way related to "slavery". Lmao. In fact, how TF is not having a sexual relationship "sacrificing everything"? It is literally one thing highly specific thing. If "you" don't think it is a worthwhile "sacrifice" to agree to, you can just... not go into that company? Its not like its some unknown highly secret thing which you are suddenly faced with, its common knowledge even outside the idol industry. Or, if you no longer want to be relationshipless, you don't have to stay in a job which requires you to be. Slavery implies being "forced" to be there or do something. You personally not liking Parasocial behaviour doesn't mean you need to lie about lack of consent or talent agreement in general within the industry. You can say you would never choose to do something like that, and accept that some people do.
By your logic isn't jobs like police, firefighter and military slavery then? Because part of the job is that you need to put yourself in danger of death and injury when ordered to regardless of your personal feelings which is way "worse" than a "no dating" rule
You have both completely missed the point, and are arguing over semantics like a "gotcha" moment. And you both completely missed the jab at "kurosanji" where they literally told another vTuber he couldn't reapply unless he was ready to _sacrifice_ everything for them after he turned them down because he wasn't willing to give up his voice work.
@age471 I like Jabs at Kurosanji just as much as the next guy. That doesn't mean I like bogus jabs. They have more than enough real problems to jab at lol. Your own example disproves your own point. That Vtuber (called CyYu btw) applied to Nijisanji. He does voice acting. As part of the recruitment process they said he would have to be willing to "sacrifice" his Voice Acting career if he wanted to join them. He said no because Voice Acting was very important to him, so they said he need not apply again unless he changes his mind since its a deal breaker for both of them. Again; what you love to call "sacrifice everything" is in fact just one or two specified things, that they were making him aware of before he joined as something he would have to give up. Perfectly normal and correct procedure. Turns out they could not agree on this point so he did not join Niji. I'm finding it really difficult to see where the "slavery" is, or where the disrespecting of the rights of "humans" is; which YOU allege. They asked whether x working conditions were acceptable for him to agree to, he said no, so they said "in that case, we will not be able to offer you a job with us". Like, what is your problem with that lmao. That is literally respecting his decision.
@@blackmage471 I'd say we didn't miss the point, you overexaggerated your own point to such a ludicrous degree that I assume we both felt it needed to be called out. It does a disservice to what you are trying to say and it cheapens what actual slavery entailed because it doesn't come even close to the horror of actual slavery.
Why did she leave out the fact that most these idols and streamers have major mental problems from the job too which make relationships hard to deal with. I mean what guy wants to share his girl and compete for her attention with thousands of other guys long term every day? It sounds like a nightmare.
"We pay for your food, we let you live here, you just have to work" "You shouldn't be in a relationships for the first initial years and dedicate all your life to work" "it's their choice so they know what they're deciding on" Jeesus, hell no. I strongly disagree on most of those takes
You know what that sounds? Slavery. You're owned by the taskmaster, you're fed and sheltered enough to work, and you get swamped with work. And if you dare step out of line, god help you.
You guys realize that you are cheapening the meaning of the word "slavery" here right? Because those people knew what rules they were signing up for. If they later come to regret that decision or realise that it wasn't for them is unfortunate, but still not slavery.
@@Alessus95slavery has two forms, chattel and de facto. In de facto slavery, you dont need to legally "own" the person as an object, just enforce conditions that force them to do what you want with no recourse. Bonded labor, as in forced labor using debt as a mechanism, is one type. "until paying me back, you can only work for me" "you cant leave" "the debt is enourmous, you WILL not finish paying". There is one small difference though, often times in bonded labor the contracts have NO EXIT. until paying. period. Obviously not all live in jobs are slavery, neither is debt. The key thing is being able to QUIT. If anything is trying to restrict you from quitting, then that's pretty sus.
As long as a line in the sand is drawn, there should be no problem. Dont go parasocial guys, its not healthy for you or your oshi. Isnt that right, cardboard cut out of Calliope Mori in a weddind dress?
Bro i'm sorry but if we're not literally on a first name basis and dating, and doing couple style shit then they're not FOR ME. That's why I don't put much stock into those idol things. It's just like having OF model white knights going off like they're ever gonna have a shot or gain points with the person.
Just yet another day of GEEGA being based as usual. Nobody has time for this stuff in current era. Maybe in 50 years or something after we get actual AI and not a facsimile.
People when a man cast aside relationship to work on himself and/or his career: Absolute alpha People when a women does the exact thing: omg that's toxic, why can't you let them have a normal life? Go queen! It's sad to see that the concept of a woman putting everything for her career is completely alien for a lot of people. That's probably caused by the modern feminist mindset: enjoy all the benefits that men do, but complain if you have to face the same challenges
You may be conflating the opinions of different people. I am strongly against the idolatry of work for men and women both. I think the "alpha" and "grindset" stuff is complete bullshit.
It's all the same shit but with a gender flip. Men used to be overworked and neglect theirs wives/girlfriends and now vice-versa. Now we are at a stage where both genders are opting out of relationships altogether to follow the money or their career. Loneliness is at an all time high for a reason.
At this point, everyone has long since known what they’re getting into whenever they decide to go into the idol industry. It’s been common knowledge for years. And to be honest, it’s perfectly reasonable.
![Bang Chan "Railway" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](/img/1.gif)
But you know, that goes for every single job ever. If you don't have a relationship, let alone kids, to worry about, you can give more of your time and energy into the company you work for. Imagine if every workplace mandated no dating policy, there'd be a relationship crisis followed by a drop in births- oh, right, we're talking about Japan
It always ticks me off a bit, only pinning birth rates to japan. Several european countries have worse birth rates (like italy), and bad birth rates are present across the western world.
@@NambarkMy understanding is its not just the rate itself, but the decline over time. Japan used to have a much higher birth rate so the issue is that the elderly who can't work now greatly outnumber the younger working population.
@@UTO7 True, but it also ties into immigration (which japan is very restrictive). But the problem should be adressed for every western nation.
Replacement is not a solution unless you want to erase culture
@@Nambarkit should, but the reason it's talked about the most with japan is that while it's a problem in many countries, it's much worse in Japan than it is almost anywhere else due to just how awful their work culture is, and because that work culture itself derives from a culture that already places groups above individuals in terms of value, and this isn't helped by the older generations extreme xenophobia
Given the context that idol groups started out as talent academies for highschoolers, it makes sense that they would be encouraged to focus on themselves instead of getting distracted by relationships. It's basically what any parent tells their kid once they start college, especially the ones aiming for law or medicine. It's unfortunate that agencies turned something innocent into a distorted part of the brand aimed to attract the parasocial freaks of a fanbase.
That's something I really want to have change. Unfortunately, the willingness to do anything to change that isn't there. Their never going to be willing to make the hard choices.
At least over here in Germany that's not the case. Parents don't tell you to not date if you go to university for law or medicine. Not a thing over here. Our laywers and doctors are considered to be on par with every other big Western industrial country. We also have enough graduates in these fields. If it works for us, then i probably would work for others as well.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmoomstheir bank relies on the parasocial fans so nothing will ever change, idols knows that and it has been a part of culture in East Asia.
@@8S1ns You think I didn't recognize that problem? That's part of why I said they would never make the hard choices. Mind you, it would eventually correct itself with money. By ditching that it would bring in new fans and lots of them. Those new ones may not spend as much individually but collectively it would make up for the loss. They would just need to hold out for a period of time to allow things to correct themselves.
Now how do I know there are people who would replace the freaks? Because there are lots of people that don't want anything to do with idols because of the extreme parasocial aspect. Once that's gone the biggest problem they have would be solved. There are people who have other problems that would get in the way, but it would be enough to compensate.
I wouldn't call it totally innocent. Sure it's not as bad as the parasocial aspect, but preventing someone from having a personal life outside of their job isn't really a great thing regardless of good intentions.
The good things for virtual idols is they managed to find a way to relax the rules while still maintain the immersion. You can date, get married, divorced, etc but don't ever whine or bring the issues on stream. And company is clear that outside stream, they don't intervene how the idols are living their life as long as it won't bring trouble for them or company.
The irl idols don't have that privilege because they have papparazzi everywhere
Brilliant clip and good take from Geega btw.
I can actually understand this origin and it makes sense in my head, but only when kept within the context that this is not meant to be a long-term thing. If you knew that it was ONLY going to be 3-5 years and after that time you would amass the skills and connections to go off on your own and do whatever then it kind of makes sense because you could be seen as being on that "grindset" that could set you up for the rest of your life. Oddly enough, we have seen this with many Vtubers as of late where they do grind it out with an agency only to go off on their own (or join another different agency) after several years and being able to maintain many of those connections while fully utilizing all the skills that they've acquired to hopefully be able to sustain doing their own thing at their own pace.
5:37 "oh, it's a horrible cultural thing. But no, it's usually just work stuff" well, it kinda is. work-culture is part of society/culture.
indeed "work stuff" which is basically common across an entire culture is basically just work culture and work culture shapes the entire culture and society of a region. The differences in societal thinking about different matters or actions between say Japan and some Western country is a direct result of their work culture
And it is a horrible cultural thing if the country's birthrate decline because of it
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena I don't think idol keyfabe would affect the birth rate on a national level. That's more to do with economics.
@@Graknorke
You are thinking too small, consider the big picture, nothing exists in isolation.
it is a horrible work culture, if its just part of the general culture then its a horrible general culture, and the statistics dont exactly disagree
This is normal in any entertainment industry.
As a young actor back in the early 2000s, I was encouraged to break my relationship of the time off over and over by different agencies and also by the Union because it would help boost popularity and likelihood of getting roles.
"availability" is indeed an attracting factor and so when its all about the role and the job, then the relationship restriction has to be paramount.
was it worth it? I get the reasons but a part of me finds it a bit controlling or absurd. like I would be like "ok fine whatever just as long as the partner isn't abusive, controlling, or sabotaging it"
Encouraging your young women employees to end relationships sounds like a way for creepy employers like Harvey Weinstein to remove inconvenient barriers to sexually violating said women.
@@baltakatei
Exactly, let's not pretend things like that are not a part of all this.
Wow that’s messed up. “Don’t have a life, only work.”
Whenever I hear these thresholds or “while you’re young”, it’s hard to think that way cause it’s not like you get multiple attempts at life, you only have one life
Also kinda telling that she seems to never had any real struggles socially.
Because that is also a skill that needs to be fostered. Most peoploe can't just forego creating relationships in early life and just somehow be proficient at it when they are adults.
That will set them back massively and maybe ruin any chance they ever had, know from experience.
One thing is self-choice, but some of those companies literally want to own the talents to a creepy degree even more than stalkers... and there is quite a lot of that even today
Dating does get in the way. Especially when you're trying to work on a personal project. A lot of people just want all your attention and time when you start dating and they get annoyed if you try to focus on work or art while dating.
Love Geegas insight yapping
4:57 their are definitely agencies who soft control it that way: keep the idol so busy they don't want to date because they feel they don't have time.
That's just korean and japanese work culture in general, though.
@@angeleyes2c supposedly it's done with that specific goal by some agencies.
@@angeleyes2c and their governments wonder why their birth rate is on the decline
That's not even just idol groups. That goes for a LOT of athletes as well, specifically young people training for the Olympics. It also tends to be mostly skewed toward female athletes, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but a lot of people in the athletic scene I've spoken to over the years have said teenage boys and/or young men are better at focusing the sport while having a girlfriend than teenage girls and/or young women having a boyfriend. The coach wants that person's undivided attention, and while I think idol groups take it WAY too far, it's not uncommon even today in the sports world.
No wonder the birth rate dropped. They spent their best years training to be a hermit.
This is the biggest reason I can't live in Japan as a unretired person. You MUST work and live for the job over there, that is necessary but its the work culture over there. I did moderate research while learning(and failing) to learn Japanese to see IF I could move there. I don't have it in me to survive their work culture. It's INSANE what goes into every day to day job. Like, if you take biggest ass kisser you've ever known over there. They'd still be inadequate in the eyes of the culture over there. Not just by their superiors, but by their peers too. It is insanely different from the west that you really need understand your role and place otherwise you'd be a piraha ready to be replaced. Different culture, different values. Still working on it and might retire over there!
And it's not even effective.
Japan has some of the lowest productivity rates in the developed world.
Who would have guess that putting human beings into an environment not conducive to human health would _f*cking harm them..._
Not sure America is really all that much better.
Maybe. But as for EN and Vtubers, I don't watch them because of "idol things". I watch them because they are streamers with anime avatars. And to be honest, I really don't like the idol culture. Some companies are trying to bring it to EN, but it's a sick thing. Even the idea of it is sick.
As a workforce management/cultural thing yeah that makes sense.
To be honest the thing that most creeps me out about the idol scene is when the fans are shitting on someone because of this kinda thing... it's like bro why you gotta make it weird like that.
So it's about Parasocial anyways LOL. Every single thing about "Living, giving and doing everything for your fans" , is PEAK definition of grooming parasocials 101 LOL. That concept itself, is making sure your fans would be parasocial about Idols. And this toxic concept was born in Japan, Idol is NOT Japan brand exclusive btw, everywhere around the world have Idols, but none are playing this Parasocial game as HARD as Japanese Idols. Other Idols, American Idols for instance, are free to be in relationship with anyone. Nobody give a shiitake even the fans, as long as they can be Professional in producing music and stuffs, they can frick anyone they want.
Idols are inherently parasocial, it's the whole point. They have a relatively niche audience so they need high income per customer compared to more generic entertainers.
> "Living, giving and doing everything for your fans"
Yes and no.
Idol culture is specifically about selling a certain kind of dream to clients, sure, but the "giving everything for fans/art" is hardly exclusive for idols.
"Show must go on", after all, is not just a popular song by Queen. It's the way by which many artists, especially young ones in theater, work and abide by.
You are sick? Show must go on. You feel bad/depressed? Show must go on. You have problems outside in your life? Put that smile and make up, because Show. Must. Go. On.
The girlfriend effect in esports
I only heard the term once ever, but same thing, really
Ironically, the original reason for the no dating rule with Idols, sound oddly similar to how Sumo Wrestlers are brought up.
When they start out, you are required to live in a stable, have a curfew, even what they are allowed to wear, and only once they rank up, are they granted more and more freedom.
"No time" is why I basically never see my local friends in the city now that we've graduated. The neighbours are all much older than me. Hard to imagine dating without apps. This sucks. :P
Idol agencies are basically just strict Asian parents that want their daughters to focus on school instead of having a boyfriend 😂
It doesn't feel fair to claim that the idols go into it knowingly and choose the harsh conditions for the sake of their future, when in the same statement you also acknowledge all of those idols are teens, some even younger teens that are still dependent on adults in their lives. Does anyone sit them down for a crash course on how to navigate the labor of being an idol? does anyone teach them what to do if their managers pressure them or abuse power? Is it a 15 minute conversation or a several day long course?
This is the same old tale of young programmers and artists getting into game development for a dream job where they know they won't be fairly paid but they really want to work for that big studio next to their favorite people. Sure they agree to unfair conditions, but does anyone prepare them for potential future abuse? Does anyone guarantee them success after that damned dream job? After all, does the situation become any less unfair simply because the person agreed to it? Yeah I think not.
Seriously, people can be manipulated into agreeing, or just outright lied to.
While this is a sensical explanation, it doesn't make me like idol culture or the idol industry.
There was 15, "you know"s i counted in this vid of 5 min. She really does say it a ton.
This is the my first time seeing this vtuber
She sound very smart
Huh. That makes some sense. For so many years I just thought it was because of the immersion and sales thing. I think if this had always been common knowledge and was more out there, it wouldn't have devolved as rapidly into the parasocial aspect over the years as it did. And a lotta folks especially outside Japan looking into this idol culture might not have had immediate negative assumptions about it.
THANK YOU FOR VALIDATING ME. People ostracize me for pointing this shit out like I don't know what I'm talking about omfg... OTL
Ugh... I feel catharsis...
I like her outfit there.
makes sense
i always wondered why quitting/ getting fired was called 'graduation' but now it makes sense if it was something that you were only meant to do when you were young
i think the age group is important too. idols (kpop jpop boybands etc), and also esports with what i'm more familiar with, they look for teenagers either due to the market or since they want to mould them into a successful product or player and these teenagers are suddenly going to get HUGE amounts of attention from people who are fans/obsessed wtih them. in esports some organisations werent as strict with relationship rules it and it just led these nerdy teenagers with no experience in relationships amped up on hormones just have women literally flock to them and, as this person said, have it affect their practice since they're just obsessed and tbh form unhealthy relationships with awkward power dynamics that they arent emotionally equipped to handle. i obviously feel like it should be the talent's choice but i think being famous really fucks with your chance of having a normal relationship
I would argue that there's a critical difference between "don't let relationships interfere with the job" and "don't form relationships."
I get the feeling that if Geega ended up with someone that someone would end up bullied/playfully teased by a sassy shortie, settling down just ain't for some people however so whatever keeps people happy and all that good stuff. Currently on the Grindset making a busness myself so I get that, anyone that busy usually isn't actively looking since it'd effect their schedule I figure.
i think is crazy in every way, people treat work like a god that they need to devote themselves to be worth of something, this fucked up your mind if you're not successful, idol industry doing this to such young teens is fucked up
The whole Kpop industry is fucked though, those idols are slaves to their company….
No, companies don't force them to do it... It's not a crime to work for food and lodgings aka live in cleaner
@@christopherhall619
No, that is far too much control over a person, it can only go wrong.
@@kjj26k Well they can quit...
@@christopherhall619 They _can,_ if they're okay with potentially starving to death.
The more you know with the boss
The problem is in Japan it’s still as bad, because if your a popular idol, voice actor, or Vtuber even that if the fans even get a hint your in a relationship, they will burn down your career in a instant. Japanese fans can be to obsessive, think of their favorite idol or vtuber is only meant for them that it becomes crazy, that soon their whole apartment or bed room is like covered in that persona’s stuff, and think that person is only for them. Japan idol fan culture is the reason the term was created, not 100% a relationship thing. Also Japan work culture is a different beast, which needs to change so very badly, as you got people who work 60, 70, to 80 hour work weeks with 6 day or even 7 day work weeks. Japan has laws against this stuff, but it’s sadly isn’t as enforced like it does in other countries. In Japan if your part of group project with your job, even if it’s time to leave the supervisors or managers expect you to stay, as leaving early is considered to be frowned upon as not working as hard as others. Japan’s work culture is ruthless, and uncaring.
That brings into the spotlight one substantial culture shock some Japanese vtubers get: if they appeal to Spanish or Portuguese speakers, they actively WANT them to date and meme about it in encouragement. They always, _always_ get floored by that.
I'm not sure if it's the same in SEA (though they're pretty based so I don't doubt it), but that's one point where it's objectively better than Japanese idol chicanery.
@@DinnerForkTongue The constant encouragement is just as bad if you ask me. It's something that should be treated as none of our business. At most a congratulations would be appropriate.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmooms You're thinking this is a lot more serious than the Latinos themselves treat it as. I said we _meme_ about it in encouragement, and that was not a word I picked on accident. It's all in lighthearted fun, and if you don't realize that then you're no Latin American.
@@DinnerForkTongue It's my personal view, that's it. And no, I'm not Latin American, I'm Canadian born and raised. I will state, I don't like it because it's not my business. If you want to do that for fun, that's fine. But to me it doesn't sound fun. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen because of the crazies to me.
@@irystocrattakodachithatmooms In this case you can reserve your feelings. You North Americans have no ground to judge the nuances of a culture that isn't yours when no harm is done, you're not important enough to have that prerogative.
wow this makes sense now.
I've never had someone explain this so well.
Yep. This is probably why birthrates are going down across the planet. We could kind of get away with the industrial revolution when it was mostly men away from home all the time but now that women are also expected to work full time, EVERYONE is now at their jobs all the time and "needing" to focus on that so a lot of people can't really devote themselves to a family. When we lived in a mostly Agrarian society this wasn't a factor since your house and your property are also where you work. Your family life WAS your job.
Very well put.
When children are capital assets and a retirement investment you do indeed have quite the incentive
As a total cherry girl, I personally like when my oshi's have fulfilling love lives.
I would LOVE to know that my oshis have a significan other, but I COMPLETELY understand why they might not want the fans to know.
@@useraccount333Oh yeah, definitely.
If numi got with literally anybody id be happy. Another vtuber, some close friend, anybody. I just want her to feel as loved as her fans love her
I think caring about your oshi's personal relationship is weird either way, but somehow people in support of the talents being relationships are not called out for being too invested in them.
I sometimes see two people collab with really great chemistry and some part of my brain can't help but ship them together. On a general level, if they're dating, that's more juicy content as far as I'm concerned.
My one visit to the vtuber board on 4chan was nightmarish, just an army of Perfect Blue-esque stalkers on the verge of snapping if their favorite streamer collaborated with a man or something. A lot of these people are the big Super Chatters, and some of them are moderators.
In fairness, 4chan prides itself on being the internet's official Wretched Hive. I don't think they should be taken as representative of the culture as a whole.
The no dating rule is a function of capitalism, which only works when people are dehumanized and treat other people as property. Hearing about vtubers dating and navigating building mature, adult relationships would go a long LONG way to helping antisocial weebs stop putting virtual women on pedestals and make them start seeing women as people with rich, full, meaningful lives. Yeah there would be some pushback from individuals that see women as objects, but it takes seeing other men treat women like people to teach men.
So much truth to this. They look up to the vtubers, so it would definitely encourage them.
+2
@@NevisYsbryd no one said that because it would a terrible idea
@@NevisYsbrydbecause they see them everyday and get crushes and they can buy body pillows and others things due to grown attachment but its always 1-sided then it becomes a parasocial sunk cost fallacy where you spend alot and expect the talent to embrace you more because you spent money on them
Nah, relationships are a problem when you're trying to do something productive. Like if you had a band and one of the members got a girlfriend and became obsessed with her, there's a 50% chance they won't stay in the band. They stop showing up for practice because they're too busy with the girl. It's not dehumanizing to make a pact with a group not to date if you're trying to do something real.
Each version of this still sounds overly controlling. ^^;
Good clip 👍, commenting for the algo
Any company that tries to exert any control on employees off the clock needs to be sued into the ground. It's extreme power abuse imo.
(And if the company goes "hurr durr, not an employee" they out themselves as lying because the employee/employer relationship is defined by the control the employer has. Freelancers are people who _independently_ provide a service. The only thing the client gets a say in is the result. I think a lot of Vtubers in western countries could win if they sued for employee rights.)
So basically
You get paid for being single
Makes sense
Sounds like itbcoukd be the origin of one gender schools too
Schools were segregated by gender as soon as they were invented, in almost every society that did.
That definitely came before idol culture, and even modern work practices.
Oh, so it worse actually.
Being an idol is less a job more a lifestyle
Like... omg... I mean... not even the military in most part of the world would push the narrative "Your romance life would distract you from doing your job, so you need to be single to enlist" right? And this is literally the job that asked you to be willing to sacrifice your life away for it, literally
I mean... no hate, but I can't help but comparing the two and find the origin of idol culture to be outrageus, and thank god most military doesn't develop this very mindset (if it's even the case anyway)
To be fair the traditional military logic is that a soldier is more willing to sacrifice themselves to defend their country when they have family in said country so having a spouse/so and/or children is a positive motivator for a soldier in such a circumstance.
@@Alessus95
Yes.
_Although,_ having so much to protect can backfire sometimes In war.
Specifically if the enemy approaches with an open hand and a good deal, warriors may conclude it would be better to take such a deal then to risk everything in a violent conflict.
@@kjj26k Certainly true, but things are generally weighted against the enemy in their attempt at persuasion since the military would have worked to demonize them, the inherent risk that the enemy could be lying, desertion/switching sides could easily endanger the family because the soldier has now become an enemy of the state his family is in and so forth. Generally speaking defections are most common when the person defecting has little to lose or when they have determined that the cause they are fighting for is lost and are attempting to salvage whatever they can.
So Geega is an idol fan?
Yeah, there's a clip of her going full idol fan mode while playing the Dave the Diver idol mini game
ruclips.net/video/cLSVgF11lYw/видео.htmlsi=zaCGk_RU0c_PD_DO
The more I learn about vtuber and idol agencies the more I despise the fact of their existence.
Wow… idol culture sounds messed up
In Japan they literally made them modern monks/nuns
It's a stupid and outdated rule, IMO. It's one thing if it's a personal choice. It's something else entirely if a business demands it of its employees. No job has the right or privilege to even ask anyone to sacrifice everything for them. That is slavery. We are all more than our work. We are humans. And I believe our personal lives are far too precious and valuable to allow any job to invade it.
It's only if it becomes a safety issue, then I can agree to it. But I also believe this rule is a contributing factor to toxic parasocial behavior. People get fantasies in their head on meeting their favorite vTubers, because the WHOLE industry is based on fantasy. A little escapism if fine, but a lot of people need a nice big pitcher of ice cold reality poured over their heads - and I can't think of a better way to do that than, "she's already married, bro."
"No job has the right or privilege to even ask anyone to sacrifice everything for them. That is slavery."
Dude, seriously no.
The only way you have a point is if this was suddenly forced on them out of the blue.
But it overwhelmingly isn't.
It's a condition you have to agree to if you want to get hired by them. I see absolutely no issue with a company listing specific employment criteria they want to you to abide by if you want to be hired by them. YOU choose to work with them. YOU agree to those conditions.
How TF is that in any way related to "slavery". Lmao.
In fact, how TF is not having a sexual relationship "sacrificing everything"? It is literally one thing highly specific thing.
If "you" don't think it is a worthwhile "sacrifice" to agree to, you can just... not go into that company? Its not like its some unknown highly secret thing which you are suddenly faced with, its common knowledge even outside the idol industry. Or, if you no longer want to be relationshipless, you don't have to stay in a job which requires you to be. Slavery implies being "forced" to be there or do something.
You personally not liking Parasocial behaviour doesn't mean you need to lie about lack of consent or talent agreement in general within the industry. You can say you would never choose to do something like that, and accept that some people do.
By your logic isn't jobs like police, firefighter and military slavery then? Because part of the job is that you need to put yourself in danger of death and injury when ordered to regardless of your personal feelings which is way "worse" than a "no dating" rule
You have both completely missed the point, and are arguing over semantics like a "gotcha" moment. And you both completely missed the jab at "kurosanji" where they literally told another vTuber he couldn't reapply unless he was ready to _sacrifice_ everything for them after he turned them down because he wasn't willing to give up his voice work.
@age471 I like Jabs at Kurosanji just as much as the next guy. That doesn't mean I like bogus jabs. They have more than enough real problems to jab at lol.
Your own example disproves your own point. That Vtuber (called CyYu btw) applied to Nijisanji. He does voice acting. As part of the recruitment process they said he would have to be willing to "sacrifice" his Voice Acting career if he wanted to join them. He said no because Voice Acting was very important to him, so they said he need not apply again unless he changes his mind since its a deal breaker for both of them.
Again; what you love to call "sacrifice everything" is in fact just one or two specified things, that they were making him aware of before he joined as something he would have to give up. Perfectly normal and correct procedure. Turns out they could not agree on this point so he did not join Niji. I'm finding it really difficult to see where the "slavery" is, or where the disrespecting of the rights of "humans" is; which YOU allege.
They asked whether x working conditions were acceptable for him to agree to, he said no, so they said "in that case, we will not be able to offer you a job with us". Like, what is your problem with that lmao. That is literally respecting his decision.
@@blackmage471 I'd say we didn't miss the point, you overexaggerated your own point to such a ludicrous degree that I assume we both felt it needed to be called out. It does a disservice to what you are trying to say and it cheapens what actual slavery entailed because it doesn't come even close to the horror of actual slavery.
Because dating a cringe and virginity is based.
honestly, that just makes it worst
Why did she leave out the fact that most these idols and streamers have major mental problems from the job too which make relationships hard to deal with. I mean what guy wants to share his girl and compete for her attention with thousands of other guys long term every day? It sounds like a nightmare.
Tactfully, it seems to me that they show up pre-loaded with the mental problems.
"We pay for your food, we let you live here, you just have to work"
"You shouldn't be in a relationships for the first initial years and dedicate all your life to work"
"it's their choice so they know what they're deciding on"
Jeesus, hell no. I strongly disagree on most of those takes
You know what that sounds? Slavery. You're owned by the taskmaster, you're fed and sheltered enough to work, and you get swamped with work. And if you dare step out of line, god help you.
@@DinnerForkTongue this is exactly what crossed my mind
You guys realize that you are cheapening the meaning of the word "slavery" here right? Because those people knew what rules they were signing up for. If they later come to regret that decision or realise that it wasn't for them is unfortunate, but still not slavery.
@@Alessus95 Refer to the previous points and stop whitewashing it.
@@Alessus95slavery has two forms, chattel and de facto. In de facto slavery, you dont need to legally "own" the person as an object, just enforce conditions that force them to do what you want with no recourse.
Bonded labor, as in forced labor using debt as a mechanism, is one type.
"until paying me back, you can only work for me"
"you cant leave"
"the debt is enourmous, you WILL not finish paying".
There is one small difference though, often times in bonded labor the contracts have NO EXIT. until paying. period.
Obviously not all live in jobs are slavery, neither is debt. The key thing is being able to QUIT.
If anything is trying to restrict you from quitting, then that's pretty sus.
She says that intent is fine but that just sounds like a iron grip on someone's soul to me
So if the point of a Japanese idol is they're fundamentally supposed to be imperfect and have a lot to prove... why do they call them idols?
Because they are imperfect AND aim to better themselves.
As long as a line in the sand is drawn, there should be no problem. Dont go parasocial guys, its not healthy for you or your oshi. Isnt that right, cardboard cut out of Calliope Mori in a weddind dress?
Bro i'm sorry but if we're not literally on a first name basis and dating, and doing couple style shit then they're not FOR ME. That's why I don't put much stock into those idol things. It's just like having OF model white knights going off like they're ever gonna have a shot or gain points with the person.
Just yet another day of GEEGA being based as usual. Nobody has time for this stuff in current era. Maybe in 50 years or something after we get actual AI and not a facsimile.
Japanese work culture, idol industry or otherwise, is one of the reasons why Japan has a plummeting birth rate.
People when a man cast aside relationship to work on himself and/or his career: Absolute alpha
People when a women does the exact thing: omg that's toxic, why can't you let them have a normal life? Go queen!
It's sad to see that the concept of a woman putting everything for her career is completely alien for a lot of people.
That's probably caused by the modern feminist mindset: enjoy all the benefits that men do, but complain if you have to face the same challenges
You may be conflating the opinions of different people. I am strongly against the idolatry of work for men and women both. I think the "alpha" and "grindset" stuff is complete bullshit.
It's all the same shit but with a gender flip. Men used to be overworked and neglect theirs wives/girlfriends and now vice-versa. Now we are at a stage where both genders are opting out of relationships altogether to follow the money or their career. Loneliness is at an all time high for a reason.
So, in other words, Idol= Nun? Checks out, with how cult-like the Idol world feels
At this point, everyone has long since known what they’re getting into whenever they decide to go into the idol industry. It’s been common knowledge for years. And to be honest, it’s perfectly reasonable.
No, it's not at all reasonable.
It's is the freaking opposite of reasonable.
japan's new slogan i mean even is: for the company
check google if ya don't think so
that im joking.
a great great asset? great asset? xD
Maybe you are joking, but Japan isn't.