Episode 64 (June 24, 2024), "The Historicity of David"
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- It's a judge and a king this week, and both are fascinating! First we're looking at Deborah, a prophet, a judge, and a really interesting figure whose story gets told twice in the Bible: back-to-back! Women often get short-shrift in the Bible, but Deborah's story is pretty satisfying. She's tough and her army wins the battle, and even more awesome-- she's not the only badass woman in the story! Stay tuned for the exciting (and gratuitously gorey) conclusion!
Speaking of staying tuned, you're DEFINITELY going to want to stick around for our second half, where we discuss one of the most important figures in the whole book! Who was this David character? A lowly shepherd who rises to be King? A roving warlord? A bisexual rapist? DID HE EVEN EXIST AT ALL?
For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at:
/ dataoverdogma
Follow us on the various social media places:
/ dataoverdogmapod
/ data_over_dogma
Jael, the essence of hospitality. He asked for water, she gives him milk. He asks for bread, she gives him meat. He asked for sleep, she gave him death. The hostess with the mostest!
Well put
A wise man once asked "What does God need with a starship?" I ask "Why does God need an army?"
That's how he Built this city.
That Mickey story actually comes from a Brothers Grimm story, it’s called the Brave Little Tailor. (Das tapfere Schneiderlein, number 20.)
Everything's fun and games until the stars start shooting laser beams at your chariots
Loved the Deborah lore.
You guys nailed it.
Nice
Sisera's mother pondering on his spoils of war is such an amazing way to end the song
The idea of David being a warlord makes a lot of sense. For example, it explains the story of how he got his third wife, Abigail. If he was running border guard in the area, keeping the Philistines out, I can see where he would expect Nabal to feed him.
Either that, or he was just a thug running a protection racket. 😁
LOL. Posted too soon. I should have known you'd get to the story of Nabal and Abigail.
Yes ppl seem to die very conveniently for David, but never directly by his hand. Saul and all his sons, Uriah, even his rebel son Absolom. Seems like someone's trying to clean up the story 😅
This is helping me so much get through data collection for some research for my dissertation. Thanks for these podcasts!
Lordy Forty have I had my eyes opened today 😳😳. Thank you soooo much 🙏🙏❤️❤️
Very King Arthurish - presummed that there was an ancient Arthur a ruler in British tribes. But all the stories just legends (esp medieval Knights and chivalry mythology)
I accept the theory that king Arthur was originally a minor military commander called Arturuos under a local British King or chief. The first mentions of Arthur never call him a king but they do ascribe military victories to him, a few he couldn't have possibly all won because they are too far apart in time and geography. I think he was the equivalent of a general who's career was combined with other generals and kings and over time his story was built upon with Welsh mythology about demigods, stories of roman emperors, biblical motifs and myths about Hercules. As well as anachronistic additions like knights and castles which wouldn't have existed at the time of a historical Arthur
@@MrWaterlionmonkey I wouldn’t be surprised if the stories of David also influenced the stories of Arthur as well
@@thescoobymike I think you're right. David earnt God's favour as a boy when he killed golith. Arthur earns favour as a boy by pulling the sword from the stone. David was an armour barrier for King Saul. Arthur was a squire for Sir Kay. David had an affair with Bethesda which pissed off God. Arthur had an affair with his half sister, the witch Morgan le faye, this pissed off God. David had to wage war against his son Absolom but he didn't want to kill him. Arthur waged war against his son Mordred but didn't want to kill him. David had Nathan who would chastise David. Arthur had Merlin who would chastise Arthur. David slays the giant Goliath. Arthur slays the Giant of Saint Michael's mount.
I'm reminded of King Arthur. I'm no historian but if I remember correctly scholars also believe him to have been a warlord that existed before England was unified, and then they just piled up a bunch of legends on him
Abraham entertained Angel's "under a tree"
Great team
Good day everyone. New listener.
I heard you on Danny's podcast
Great episode, thank you
Historical David episode without Joel Baden?! That’s a crime!
I keep begging y'all to bring Joel Baden on your show. This would've been the episode to do it! Please!!!
How timely. I just finished Joel Baden's The Historical David.
That's minor, but I am skeptical about the claim that the Philistines would have introduced the usage of war chariots in the region, from what I remember the Hittites and the Egyptians at least used those way before the bronze age collapse. Or maybe I didn't understand what you were saying?
Just listening to an audiobook. And, what a coincidence, one of the characters murdered her husband by hammering a tent peg through his head. One of the inspectors wonders if she was inspired by Jael, who killed Sisera.
Two times on the same day!
Trees- provide shade, landmark
@9:45 I think you meant Judges 1,19: "The Lord was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country but could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron."
Sung to the tune of "Thong". "Love, love love love, love!"
Loved this story -- as Dan B. notes, the women are the heroes here! Also, though it doesn't seem to fit the time period of the story, my NRSV in a footnote says that Machir was a son of Manasseh, who was a king of Judah, so maybe Judah was represented?
I'd love to hear you talk about Micah and the ephod and the Levite and concubine. Why the hell are those stories even in the Bible. There is no moral lesson to learn.
It seems plausible that there was a historical David because of the amount of obvious apologetic spin in the stories. Why invent someone with so many flaws and then try to absolve him of the most egregious sins?
These myths are invented for power over territory and society. Once they have that power, they have to perpetuate the myth.
As Henry Gondorff once said “You gotta keep his con, even after you took his money. He can’t know you took him”.
my headcanon, as it were, is that he was a puppet ruler asserted upon the israelites by the philistines who may or may not have eventually rebelled against them, but either way his descendents pretended he'd been against them all along
You start out with one story and have to keep revising it throughout time. It's not that one person created the whole mess. You can't just overturn mythology you build on it.
That said, I think they found some evidence for a king david...which is more than we have for Jesus lol
I think it’s plausible because why wouldn’t there be a King David. Minimalism is so weird
Yeah, I believe that is more or less Dr Joel Baden's position as well
Could the tree that grew over Jonah and then died while he watched Ninevah have some symbolism in Jonah allowing his venerated status to wither under his own stubbornness and desire to see their destruction?
The woman in the window seems to be a Canaanite artistic motif. Were the biblical authors mocking a known Canaanite tradition?
Great episode!
Thank you.
This would get a lot more views if it was live streamed.
Re under a tree. My interpretation is this is a sign of humility. Deborah and the others said to have done this don't need a palace or court to dispense judgment and their authority is accepted wherever they are.
I thought that they sit there because it’s inn the shadow. And under a tree it’s always a bit cooler. When it’s hot, I liked to sit under the tree in my garden.
@@jannetteberends8730I also thought so. I was reminded straight away of large trees in Africa which were traditional meeting places for various people.
Sisera's mother and her handmaids imagine that Sisera and his victorious soldiers are awarding girls to themselves and collecting beautiful clothes for their mothers and other female relatives back home. Typical souvenirs of their time and station, I guess. In the late 90s, I lived next door to a postman who traveled to the Philippines and came back with the exact same prizes for himself and his mother and brought back a neon pink bedspread to boot.
"Lappidoth" is sometimes used to mean "lightnings." "Barak" is found as an epithet of Semitic warrior-heroes and gods and means, "lightning bolt." Coincidence? I think not.
Hearing history instead of preaching really changes the flavor of what I believed in my church days. And history makes a ton more sense instead of patching every hole with "mystery of God's will".
I’m curious about this mythological link between the visible stars and the concept of the “heavenly host” in the Hebrew Bible. Should we read that connection in the many other passages that use that phrase? It would seem to make sense as a visual metaphor: the stars in the night sky as the numerous campfires (or torches?) of an enormous army. Assuming that the distinction between “angels” and other heavenly beings was less defined in the earlier layers of these texts.
Shamgar, son of Anath. Legend.
Dan M., did you once talk about how in ancient times, women were often the heads of tribes? The Bible just changed the narrative. I know it’s common in the Native American culture with respect to elders!
It certainly happened, I don't know if there is any evidence that it happened "often". Unfortunately the earsure of women from history is not unique to the bible either. The Greeks, Romans, Chinese (except for a few small tribes largely ignored or oppressed), and so on, none of them needed the Hebrew scriptures to erase women from their history. You can go back even further back before these biblical stories were supposed to have even happened, nevermind written down. Go back to Mespotamian or Egyptian works and women are treated largely the same. Even the female deities do not represent anything close to equality for human women, like great there's epic warrior Goddess queens, but actual human women didn't benefit from that in any meaningful way, at best it was empty representation. At worst it was some bizzare objectification, even the virgin warrior goddesses, their physical appearance is centered far more then their male counterparts (Artemis and Athena for example, their looks aren't really relevant but for some reason the story tellers thought it was important for us to know that they were hot ladies and then they had to deal with attempted assaults from men).
Even without the backstory, I think it would be fair to say she earned her authority (not "given" it).
The judges are stories mostly from the Northern Kingdom as synthesizes N and S. No Philestines prior to approx 1150BCE. Demonstrating the writing of OT "books" were written after the merger of N and S. Literary Hebrew started approx 8th century BCE. All Judges were legends 500 yrs after the events described.
Did they have different iron tent pegs. In those times?
Because the wooden ones I remember wouldn’t be that sharp.
So about David it could be as simple as god chose David to be king. I don’t see how Jonathan gave up his birth right to David since he was killed with his father b4 David was king
In the Deborah story Is it possible that Yael (Ibex) getting the glory is a reference to Asherah's Ibex?
“What all this means.”
The late Bronze Age collapse essentially spreads from NW to SE over the next century and a half.
What this entails is Egypt gradually begins to lose the ability to reduce the factors that pushed it back to the Nile. As this spreads so also the peoples behind the collapse to recover. The first are the syroanatolian city states.
So what does this exactly mean
During the period of collapse rulers don’t have the ability to operate as threats rise and resources are depleted. As this period equilibrates then new rulers appear that can galvanize resources and operate with far fewer resources and administration. These early Iron Age polities are often called micro-states and their sphere of influence is small
We could imagine that Isra’el is in the process of recovering whereas Yehudah is in the process of equilibration. We also can look at this another way. Egypt may have not fully retracted in 1130 BCE but may have incrementally retracted over a longer period.
So then we really need to be serious about this and not doing the ballet about the issue.
Shamgar of Anath (Anath was a goddess, there are at least three settled areas that follow her), Beth Shamesh/Shappesh (sun god/goddess), Gad (Mt Hermon the gif of fortune), Bêt Lahmi (Yehudah, the house of the guardian of Enki - Ia), Luz (almond grove/tree -Asherah) = Bethel before name covered up by the Nehemiah/Yosiah group. In fact we have no idea how many gods in Isra’el during the LBAC, the confederation, the earliest kingdom. Many of the theophorics were corrupted in the transmission history and many we simply don’t know what they mean.
What is Isra’el to the pharoahs. It a group of people living in its territory that are not as loyal and law obedient as Pharoah wants them to be.
So here is my take on David.
I think David was from Bêt Lahmi and the Philistines were giving the region problems. It’s says Saul was from Benjamin, but it seems odd that the Benjaminites, whom all men where killed late in Judges would suddenly have the ruling king.
I think the story in judges is a backstory of how Urusalem, the city of the Benjaminites was taken by Yehudah and David. What I think happened was the Philistines took Bêt Lahmi and then David army retreated to Urushalim where there was a coup, and he took over. The Benjaminites called out to Saul, who at that time might have been fighting the philistinism and between David and the philistines the Army of the Benjaminites is defeated.
Are you Jewish?
Jael's favorite band was Nine Inch Nails
It would be great to do the Ehud story. Comedy of errors.
Do you guys plan on posting this on Spotify? Or will it only be on RUclips?
Just went and checked, and it looks like it's there on Spotify... Are you still not seeing it?
@@dataoverdogma I just looked. I have your show saved on my homepage, so that’s usually just where I click to see your channel. Well, the “latest” episode that shows when I click it is “God’s Wife with Francesca Stavrakopoulou.” But when I search “Data Over Dogma” it shows your newest episodes. Maybe my Spotify is just glitched out. But thank you for the reply!
As Draco the lawgiver in ancient greece was placed into the heavens as Draco the constellation, David was done the same and immortalized as the constellation Auriga, a hexagon shaped constellation. Goliath is Perseus depicted in the story, and if you read greek myth you will know where the biblical narratives were coming from. The dragon in Revelation is Draco.
"Did you tell them about the FUNDAMENTALS?" (You get a gold star if you know the reference.)
I never wanted a gold star I can't have😂.
Did Saul not give David his Daughter Michal?
The question is not if David is historical. Even Hebrew kings have forefathers, so unless we defy basic biology the answer is yes.
The question if he was a king. And that depends on a grain of corn found in a palace at Megiddo. Radiometry is ambiguous - it supports twó time intervals (both 10th Century BCE). One matches the supposed reign of King David. The other is a few decades later.
Well, that's a bit of a fuzzy claim. It's true that there must have been forefathers of the kings, yes, and it appears to be true that there is a "House of David" spoken of in historical record. Neither of those things specifically prove there was a David, let alone a King David. Romans traced their lineages to Romulus, a guy who almost certainly did not exist historically even as a vague analogue; at the point we're arguing "Well, Romans had forefathers, so there was basically a historical Romulus" we've lost sight of what "historical Romulus" even means.
What's fuzzy about that Megiddo palace, that grain of corn and radiometry? And really, don't you see why your analogy fails? You don't understand the difference between merely 50 years (two generations) and several centuries? Plus evidence that those genealogies are entirely madecup? The correct analogy would be the Roman kings before the city became a Republic, not yours.
The only thing you've argued is that the name of this specific forefather might be not David. You have zero evidence for that.
I recommend you to study Minimalism and Maximalism in history of Antiquity. Livius Org is a good source. Then you might realize: we dó know that Israel had a king between 950 - 900 CE and that we can't just dismiss the claim that his grandfather was called David until you present evidence for another name. What you can maintain is that he wasn't a king.
Nothing fuzzy here - just the limits of our knowledge due to lack of data - and what we havecis ambiguous. In such cases we use Ockham's Razor. And calling the guy David is simplest.
@@marknieuweboer8099 the evidence shows there was a "house of david" and a bunch of myths. that's it. anything else is speculation.
A striking woman.
I can recommend the episodes "In the sight of the lord" of the BBC drama Waking the dead pertaining to this.
I heard my people being talked about....
Not only Chariots but Chariots of Iron. Leading some to think Yahweh was somewhat Djinn like.
My question for Dan is how many founders of dynasties are fictional and why is David different?
Many in the region are definitely not fictional, including Israel's Omri.
@@Erimgard13 as someone who has actually looked into the subject "many" is a very serious overstatement. Most founders are fictional.
@@Erimgard13 Okay so i had to double check the Omri claim and having now done so... Not so much. While the house of Omri existed there is question about the existence of the founder.
The very first thing we have to keep in mind when it comes to the bible is that it is a political document that is historically untrustworthy. The second thing we have to keep in mind is that dynastic founders historically do not exist. The reason is related to proto-indo-european influence. In order to have legitimacy one must claim descent from a mythical hero who is descended from or god.
Third the David myth is a reflex of patroclus and achilles. In fact much of the Old Testament is clearly Greek in origin. One of the most obvious in your face cannot deny examples is Samson. While bible scholars will often point to the similarities between Samson and Gilgamesh, Samson actually has more in common with Hercules.
I am sorry but all evidence points to David being as real as Romulus or Arthur. Founders tend to be fictional and you cannot take "well there is a story about them" as evidence that they existed. If your argument proves spiderman exists then its a bad argument.
Of course he was. Who otherwise cried naked with Jonathan in the field?
Re chariots and sea peoples: it's the other way around. Egypt, Hittites and the other nations had chariots from ~18th c BCE After the sea peoples the chariot was no longer that popular, possibly because the sea peoples introduced heavy infantry formations which made them less effective.
It was more that chariot troops were prohibitively expensive to both train and maintain.
@@IamVerilance And as we know, expensive weapon systems fall out of use.
@@TheArghnono😂
Yebbut, did anyone see Barak's Birth Certificate? 😂
The TEL DAN TABLET mentions the house of David. David is a fact. The tunnel he carved out is in Jerusalem.
I don't think they are questioning David's possible existence, just more so that the way the Bible describes his existence is probably not how he actually existed. Also, the house of David isn't necessarily solid evidence of his existence. People can dedicate themselves to something and personify it through a person or being that doesn't actually exist. At least that's how some people have explained it in the comments.
@@87rayban and the House of Tudor never existed either? or Hanover. The enemy know who they are fighting. House of David. And David means beloved, and his name is part of over 70 names that give us a large message from Adam to Jesus. The First ten names say - Man APPOINTED Mortal SORROW the BLESSED GOD, comes teaching, his death brings lamentation, comfort and rest. That message is extended all the way to JEsus. Includes DAVID. Start to take out names? HISTORY and you have no message. But David exists. So that message implies his father Jesse can't name David any other way. every man on that list must carefully choose a name. Many billions are saved, we do not NEED YOU. We offer you mercy. As this is the last decade. WE DO NOT NEED YOU AT ALL. we are sorted. we can go to heaven and leave you to SATAN. no skin off our noses. You do not seem to understand we don't give a toss if you get saved. That Job belongs to GOD. Our task is to spread the news. That is DONE. everyone will know JESUS. Its over saturated. SO by all means screw with hell. We are just sick of you slandering God. We are happy as hell to see you fall into a pit. We applaud your IGNORANCE. We applaud your bravado. We all like a camera shot of a man going splat.
Rome was named after Romulus who was fictional.
Algorithm
Jael - a woman I would not approach with a 10-foot pole 😂
54:35 peeping Tom or a peeping David?.?.?
SO, you guys don't know what Quickening IS or that there IS such a Thing(function/process??)
Psalm 71 has an interesting thought/process?? and Psalm 119 is SO LONG with SO much and Much about the different Types of quickening?? Then Psalm 139 verse 15 and 16 YOU WILL NEVER TRANSLATE CORRECTLY---TRY IT---the WEBB has Just Proven??? what 16 says
DAVID was REAL and a :PROPHET to BOOT. You will SOON learn that--some already KNOW---some will NEVER KNOW.. BEWARE Psalm 127 for the year 2027--------OUCH---PRAISE be the YOUTH.
So yall don’t believe the Bible at all huh
the bible isn't one thing. you have to be more specific.
Guys a woman sitting under a palm tree outside of Luz - Duh, Asherah Cult.
I have heard Deborah is supposed to be pronounced De BOR ah.
It’s just a bunch of nomadic copper miners making up these stories. Since Egypt still had control of this area.
and HE loved Johnathan So much?? and He would castrate 200 dead Enemy for SAUL when Saul only asked for 100??? For his First Wife?? maybe I got that wrong
The amount of useless Babel as well as a frequent harsh interruptions of Dan make this a very unpleasant podcast
Would watch more of these if the other Dan wasn't there. His constant "jokes" are infuriatingly annoying
This show would be so great if that smart@ss guy was NOT on it wasting Dr. McClellans and our time with his dumb comments. It will never make it big, bc people do not have the patience to keep listening to him.
I hope Dan McClellan finds another host very soon.
One that is actually funny and speaks better that is the matchup they are going for, otherwise a serious host that is actually intellectual like Dan.
I don’t think many people agree with you