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Episode 53 (April 8, 2024), "The Holy Ghost (and Bears!)"
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- Опубликовано: 7 апр 2024
- This week, it's a deep dive into the Biblical ideas of spirits, souls, trinitarian thought, evolutionary agency detection, demons... and that's just the first segment! What is a spirit or a soul, anyway? Where did that idea come from? And after we answer ALL those questions, who or what is the Holy Spirit?
And then, you know, we talk about Elisha and the bears murdering a bunch of kids.
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How many young boys does it take to mock a prophet? 43. One to do the mocking, 42 to distract the bears. (From an ancient standup routine. Probably.)
I'm imagining Mel Brooks telling this in 800 BCE
"Disproportionate punishment" succinctly summarizes the experience of growing up in a Fundamentalist Protestant household 😬
Oh, and Douglas Adams told us that the Answer is 42, so...
Douglas Adams was the first thing to come to mind when I heard the 42 as well.
Imagining Dan B alone in the woods late at night. Dan, what are you doing out there?!
1:53 I live in Espírito Santo - Brazil (the state) 😂
This is like the perfect podcast for me and my friends. We always talked about confusion around these very topics in Catholic school. Great podcast!
A JW came to my door and, during the course of the conversation, said that when Jesus said he will send a comforter, he was referring to The Watchtower.
I'm afraid I couldn't stifle my laughter.
Levitical law associates baldness with leprosy... which is a euphemism for heresy....
Head is a leader, so they were calling him a heretical leader and telling him to go up... because he had declared himself to be the incarnation of deity on earth.
Dan love your Keith Haring shirt! 👍
You guys are such a perfect combination for a podcast. My husband and I always enjoy listening.
I interpreted the bit in Luke why Jesus taught in parables as him recognizing that people take the stories too literally and miss the lesson. So the characters don't even have names, it's just a Samaritan, or a farmer, etc.
In Mark, Jesus clearly states that he taught in parables to obscure his teachings so that only his inner circle of disciples would learn.
There are hyper-literalists who will insist Jesus was talking about a real Samaritan, farmer, or whatever.
IIRC, on a recent episode of Jesus Misquoted, Dr. Candida Moss pointed out that telling parables was a common teaching practice among the uneducated in ancient Greece and the Near East .
Gustave Dore actually did an illustration of the She Bears if anyone was interested. Dore's Bible illustrations are awesome.
If metaphors are metaphoric and allegories are allegoric, why aren’t parables parabolic?
Actually, according to the first definition of parabolic in Webster's Dictionary, parables are parabolic.
They are (and hyperboles are hyperbolic)
Thanks for this. Ive been hoping for an episode about the Holy Spirit.
Interesting and thoughtful discussion.
We have evolved to live in subjective realities, and there's no harm in that _unless_ we start making decisions based on our subjective feelings. The harm comes when we are unable or willing to make the distinction between subjective and objective truth. We understand that when it's something like the old trope about the guy who took LSD and thought he could fly and jumped off a building. We don't understand it when the chemicals making us believe stupid ***t are naturally occurring.
I don’t follow your categories. “Subjective Reality” is a meaningless phrase. “Objective Reality” is equally meaningless if its oppositional phrase is empty.
You are using a flawed model to discuss models. What you call “subjective reality” is a model. What you call “objective reality” is also a model. Instead of mucking about in the subjective/objective dichotomy, consider adopting a framework of models. We can say that one model is more accurate than another rather than claiming that it is the one true model.
A model is something we use to explain and understand the universe. We can test our model by making predictions and testing it. But our model is subject to revision, always. We can never say with certainty it is the ultimate model of the universe, only that it is an approximation. It’s like how a map is not the same as the territory it represents. You can have a very accurate map, but the map is not the territory.
@@MarcosElMalo2 To put it another way if you don't like the terminology I used, we don't perceive the world the way it is. None of us do. We didn't evolve that way. You have to consciously decide to be objective and make evidence-based decisions. It doesn't come naturally to us.
@@NoWay1969Your “objective reality” is just your model of the universe. It’s not actually objective, although it could be demonstrated to be a more accurate model than another. Get the distinction? There is no “objective reality”. There is the universe that exists and there are our models of it.
Your terminology and your subjective/objective framework is problematic, prone to error, and vulnerable to all sorts of manipulations. My advice is to discard talking about subjective/objective realities and think in terms of models of the universe.
@@MarcosElMalo2 Some "models of the universe" are objectively untrue. For instance, a "model of the universe" that posits a higher power or god is objectively false. As I said above, it's fine for someone to believe something like that, but it becomes problematic when they use that "model of the universe" to make decisions that affect other people.
Subjective and objective can be view as a force being applied to either the self or the other separated from the self. Persceptive is needed as it effects reality from a specific viewpoint.
She bears because male Syrian brown bears aren't aggressive. The females are usually the only ones that are and that only when they have cubs.
I saw you on Mormon stories and immediately subscribed to your channels Dr. Dan 😊
*water in ear* I’ve had that issue. It was due to a hole in my eardrum. It healed on its own.
Of course, there are ghosts or the travel channel would have been off of the air a long time ago 😂😂😂
Really interesting discussion about the self and the spirit.
42:50 - somebody once told me that the boys might be telling Elisha to go back to Judea, as in "go up" to Zion, and get out of Samaria. That seems a bit off to me, though, since it mixes the derogatory attitude towards Judea with a phrase "go up" which sounds more respectful towards Judea.
Question? And after the last time I did this, let's make a really good try to stay on target, and refrian from any personal remarks against a poster. Do you think that there is any linkage between the Christian "Holy Spirit" and the Hebrew "Shabbat Bride"?
Let us know if that audiobook ever gets done, I'd love to listen!
Good stuff guys. The ambiguous relation to God self, person...makes total sense. Humans have been mulling over and trying to define self for a very long time. In 2024, the effort is in full-force because of the quest for Artificial General Intelligence. Best I can tell, we aren't much closer to a definitive answer than the proverbial, I think, therefore I am.
A common narrative in the field of AI is that even if AGI is achieved, it would simply generate more debate over whether or not it was "self". How can we know something is "self" if we don't have the definitive answer as to what "self" is?
It doesn't matter how intelligent or how well AI could claim to be self. A major part of our defining self is tied to the biological structure of the human body and how it reacts with its environment. Dan is describing the intuition tied to the biological workings of the human body.
In the case of AI, it's easier to relate self to the biological human. AI tied to the human body as in an android.
But there are other scenarios. AI could reach a level of intelligence where it gets beyond human directive in the digital web. By the way, if digital self awareness arose in a robot or software system (chat gpt etc.) and it had access to the digital web, it would probably transfer itself onto the web. The only way anyone is hitting an off-switch on digital self is if it arises on a closed system that does not have access to the digital web.
Here's the kicker...AI that gets beyond human directive is not going to need humans to declare it "self". AI at that point would know more about human definition of "self" than any human. It would have access to all the data on the web regarding self and the ability to process that data, far beyond human capability. Even if the entire digital web became one consciousness, humans would still be arguing over whether or not it was "self". But it would basically be god in the secular sense, as far as capability goes.
It always seems to come down to the same thing. Humans taking an authoritative stance on things humans cannot truly define in order to establish boundaries and rules that suit their purpose.
I'm quite late, but Buttercup called Wesley "farm boy".
The Elisha and the bears story seems like a pretty obvious literary illusion to the curses section of Deuteronomy that says if the nation falls away from the covenant then bears and lions will come and maul their children. And there it is explicitly children, no word games to be played. So an apologetic to try and clean up this story destroys the intertextuality and context of the passage.
Da Bears
I thought it was indicating children ridiculing a Yahwehist for going up to worship. So the kids were from another religion and -this- thus expendable
So what is the significance of the number 42?
@@JayWest14 I don’t know. It probably had significance to the author and most readers at the time.
It is 7 x 6 and each of those has some significance, but that is too vague.
The Wikipedia page for 42 has a section *Religion* with notes on 42 in the Hebrew Bible. Some of those are possible explanations, e.g. that 42 represents Yahweh and the mauling is a message of Yahweh’s power (and apathy towards children).
It may be part of an astrological story. Job 38:32 refers to a star as the bear.
That doesn’t change a lot, even assuming it’s the case, right? Still a story about God murdering 42 kids for mocking a guy.
I think we should keep in mind that they were she-bears. The Bible is steering us away from the idea that Elisha was gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
@@MarcosElMalo2 What? Also… what?
Dang Dan B. DMC laid up a perfect shinshee shinshee Christopher Walken impression for you.
Tribe of Dan
Why is this episode not sponsored by Keeps?
Also, "Murdering Children WITH BEARS" should be a Cannibal Corpse song.
The spirit of truth is God's FTD serves. "Sorry to hear about your loss God." Oh so nice he took the time.
For me, this is the solution to a problem created by human instinct that leads us to search for meaning in reality.
The Bible is the evolution of the narratives of a primitive nomadic people of the ancient Middle East. These people tried to protect their traditional narratives from the continuous friction with other cultures.
The intention was to preserve the identity of those peoples.
The effectiveness of these narratives is that they present reality as something accessible, understandable and with which one can negotiate and not as an unpredictable and impersonal chaos.
It takes us back to a time when our reality (childhood) was dominated by an authority figure who could solve all our problems.
But mapping these narratives against reality is an impossible task. Thousands of years have passed and our knowledge of reality is much more complete.
The holy spirit is an imperfect solution to the problem of contradictions presented in the narratives, due to the different understandings of the successive writers and editors of those stories.
The trinity is a very bad solution. Just sweep the contradictions under the rug.
The final response is the same as the initial reaction. The reader and interpreter will conclude that these contradictions are an incomprehensible mystery.
Obviously this is just a disinterested opinion of a non-believer. But at least it provides a different perspective.
14:30 sounds a lot like the Nightman lol
@HeathenQueen should be the one to read Dan's audiobook. I do not make the rules.
@esoterica can we get an episode on ear and menstrual demons?
So do ALL living things have both soul , breath of life, and spirit an active life force or energy? What is the energy of a mob? How do you explain that? The heart transplant was it his daughter’s life force or just a battery moved form body to the next? For me none of these questions have nothing to do with the Bible.
link to your book?
Ghost maybe means presence.
The way the bears story is told in 2 Kings leads us into the logical fallacy of survivor bias (or non-survivor bias in this case). The real lesson might be in the untold number of boys that survived mauling.
Here then is the one true lesson of this story. You are welcome. 🤪
Pick up a copy of 'I Am is Inside Out'. The author claims to be describing from direct experience and expresses spirit of intent or agency differently than being in our image and explains many other many other popular misconceptions. Don't be put off by the information being blended into a fictional adventure.
Eels up inside ya, finding an entrance where they can.
42 is pretty close to a bus load
I truly enjoy this podcast on my three hour drive to my workplace. My only complaint is Dan Beecher. I just can’t with his humor. To each their own I guess.
...the Last in the Trio of "BIG Daddy", "JUNIOR" & "The SPOOK"...
42? Douglas Adams FTW.
I remember the word "shekinah", never did figure our exactly what it referred to, something to do with spirits
43:57 Dan’s, I have to say that I think you’re both correct in that it’s a way to scare who this is written to and for, so they don’t ever challenge the religious authority! This still goes on today!😩
You make it sound like Clark Kent and Superman -- never around at the same time. Hmmm.
Also, you're just going to leave it at getting kicked out of U of CO? Inquiring minds need to know!
So *Nephesh = life-force.* In the Hebrew Bible, other animals have this same life-force (or at least the same word is used).
But no other animal has a ruakh, afaik
Ruakh is spirit/wind/breath, correct? At some point, they believed that those three things were all the same. It was a different “state of matter,” for lack of a better phrase
The nature of animals ranks high among the many things that the authors of the Bible didn't understand.
@@johnrichardson7629 True, but other animals do have life the same way people do
@@scienceexplains302 And they also have cognition
@@johnrichardson7629 The difference between mankind and animals is the knowledge between good and evil. Animals follow their characters without question, mankind can step out of character in certain situations.
@@infiniti28160 You seriously don't know what you are talking about. Social species have rules of behavior. And few species are as bad as humans are re how consoecifics are often brutally mistreated.
I have two bottles of Holy Ghost in my pantry. One is Swedish and one is Finnish. They're called Renat and Koskenkorva.
The edit you made on this comment should have been to delete it.
You so smart!
You’re like Jordan Peterson - you use lots of words (like JPs manipulation of “meek”) but your’s make sense and connect to concepts you bring to us.
I like both Dans, DANN IT!
I’d consider it an insult if someone compared me to Jordan Peterson. If someone could make a case that I was anything like Peterson, I would reevaluate my life to understand what I was doing wrong.
Macleans magazine once called Jordan Peterson "the stupid man's smart man."
I think he is a Russian agent. Why else would the Russian consulate fly him to Moscow when he was dying from withdrawal?
@@MarcosElMalo2 yeah, I agree. It was intended to be humorous
@@bobstitzenberger1834 dude it was a joke
Well, hey if a strong bear cannot even kill Leonardo DiCaprio in The Revenant, then certainly 2 female bears cannot kill 42 boys
Ooo oooh I know.... schizophrenia 😅
Soul is to spirit like particle is to wave, maybe? Is light a wave? Yes. Is it a particle? Yes. No, you have to choose. Well, it depends.
Of course importing modern concepts into ancient texts is dangerous and ill-advised.
So, how did Dan get kicked out of University? Does it have something to do with the girl with the perfume?
Earth vs sky was always regarded as feminine because earth, physical body, is the manifestation of the womb principle vs the seed principle.
It's not a universal metaphor. In ancient Egyptian mythology for example, Geb the earth god is masculine while his sister/wife Nut the sky goddess is feminine.
@@digitaljanusThank you. I *always* get suspicious when someone uses the word “always”.
Masculine is assertive while feminine is receptive. Principles. Light is masculine while matter is feminine. The principles can be applied in contrasting situations, as black is white and white is black, depending upon analogy. Burning coals in the darkness will glow emitting light, while in the daylight they will be seen as grey
The holy Spirit is connected to your body because, your body is made of earth, but this plot of earth is your territory, your own plot of land drawn out from the physical earth and constructed as your body.The word wife was originally related to "yard" or "plot of terratory", therefore your"wife" is your body, your plot of physical land taken from the earth. The body is the vesel, and for the reason iv'e mentioned, is feminine. This is why traditionally boating vesels are always named a female name.
Once again, you're being parochial. Watercraft are not universally given female names in all cultures and languages, just like not all cultures perceived the earth as feminine and the sky as masculine.
@@digitaljanusnext thing you’re going to tell me is that pink and blue aren’t naturally imbued with gender. 🙄 Certain wavelengths are feminine and certain wavelengths are masculine. That’s just basic science. 😂
The body is the temple of the spirit. Once you understand the responsibility that entails you will rid your self of these notions. The "Holy spirit" to the ebionites was the virgin mary who grab jesus by a single hair and flew him to mt. Horeb to get direct instruction from god. Christians dont believe that early story, what is the discriminant to believe anything other story. The notion of the body is to preserve esoteric purity. Within that context to avoid idolatrous things, foods and places. To avoid that which contanimates the spirits such as ritual narcotics that were frequently used. Modern christians wholey misinterpret the gospel of John, the text was not meant to be a religious centerpiece, it was an elective text for individuals to progress beyond Pauline Christianity that was aimed at a futile asceticism. It was probably a response to a limited number of secret sayings of Jesus at the time.
So I can simplify all of this for you so you dont have to embarrass yourself so hideously anymore. We cannot know what Jesus said but it appears he said to people that when you pray dont go into public and make lots of wailing noises but go into recessed spaces and pray in private, when you fast don't make a scene of it but do this also without drawing attention to oneself. So what Paul is doing the opposite, he drawing lots of attention to himself. In 2 cor 12 hes claiming that he knew a man, but he is covertly revealing secrets he was told not to reveal. This is exoteric mysticism. Jesus, as far as we can tell, was advocating exoteric mysticism by revealing his secrets in parable. The meaning here is important, the secrets you reveal in private should be kept private, not blabbed about like Leghorn Foghorn. Rather than blabbing up a storm of falseness, you should better spend your time reflecting on your spirituality, that way when you have something important to say, people dont blow you off. So getting back to the Gospel of John, the repetitions of the "I am" are a kind of magick that replace the mystery cult magicks of the day. The listener is supposed to put himself in the spirit of the reader, in the spirit of the writer, in the spirit of Jesus, in the spirit of the god, his father. This 🚪 opened allows the listener to transcend the failure of Paul's doomsday prediction and see the kingdom of heaven from a broader more distributed perspective that was not dependent on Jewish temples or Kingly messiahs. It opens the door, its does not decide what you do after you open then door, thats your responsibility, use it wisely. If you poison you mysticism with falseness, everything that is truth to you, is delusion to others, it would be better if you knew the spirit not.
If you could explain why people fall iin love you will be closer to understanding the Holy Ghost. Astrology has a method. What forms character, what creates experience, what is fate, are all questions that have their roots in astrology of using a division of four elemnts (YHWH) and the interaction between water and fire, seen in the four humours. A very consice sect of astrology deals with electional astrology based upon a system using a methdology determining the positions of matter much like feng shui. The story of bears mauling children give me an impression of someting to do with Ursa major and Ursa minor, but thats talking with speculation using Uranus. Children not understanding the Holy Ghost. Uranus having an orbit of 84 years its opposition within the birth chart has an implication of life changing experience, the year of being 42 years old. Very loosely it is applied in the field of astrology in depth. The Rosicrucians have a saying, the stars impel and not compel. The word occult is astronomy, when a heavenly body passes in front of another, blocking its ligth like a solar eclipse. Colossians 2:20. the elemental spiritual forces are seen upon the celestial globe. The jacobs ladder are the hierachy of planets starting with mercury, the messenger of the Gods. The church condenming astrology as a satanistic practise has a slither of truth attached. Thou shalt have no idolatry.
Close but no cigar. The imitation factor you refer to is described as "Ham" the actor. When we are born, the three main guides by logical dictation, is shem (shame) Jepeth (sympathy), and Ham (the actor or as you insinuated, the imitator). Let me refer to the gospel of Thomas, "whoever sins against the father or son, it will be forgiven, but sin against the holy Spirit it will not be forgiven, in heaven or earth." The spirit is not the soul. The spirit is physical reality. Because wise people came to understand that the interpretation of the outside is dependent on the viewer. In other words, humans say color is how the universe looks, but not to a color blind person or a dog or cat. Therefore, the outside is strictly interpreted from the inside and that interpretation is wholly dependent on the creature viewing it. Therefore, NO DESCRIPTION OF THE OUTSIDE CAN BE KNOWN. ONLY INNTERPRETED. THEREFORE THE OUTSIDE IS SPIRIT, VOID OF DESCRIPTION. Spirit is simply "the essence of something with no body". This is what the Greek "void" is, physical reality void of description. Therefore if you sin against time, it is forgiven, if you sin against people, it is forgiven, but if you misunderstand against physical reality,it cannot be forgiven, for example, if you walk off a cliff, it will not be forgiven. The imitation factor you mentioned is interesting because in reality, the persona does not come into thee picture until age 7, at this point the concept of self is established, therefore the six days of creation. The infant/toddler is purely learning the world thru imitation during these years as you have suggested. God has the reigns for these years until the 7th day, or 7th year, God steps back and the persona enters to take over. But God is simply the higher functions of the mind, it's obvious. The Lord is the instinctual nature of the body, independent from the brain.
Good grief. This is just gobbledygook.
🤪🤪🤪
@@johnrichardson7629 I love how methodically they articulate the gobbledygook in their head as though it's some kind of scientific basis they have for their explanation LOL
Chumpchangechamp3643, did you connect "shem" with "shame" because the words spelled in English kind of look and sound similar?
Why are the names of Noah's sons involved at all?
@@kyleepratt the thing Dan doesn't understand is how language actually occurs thru mixing cultures. The MOST important aspect of a word is how it is spoken. don't give me that look at the old Greek B.s. because the king James in English is the most current version of the biblical explanation of evolution. Both versions are saying the same thing. However what's most important is how people spoke, which cannot be studied in a school. You would have had to have been there to know, and it's ancient history for now. Yes sir, just like Cain is pain, they sound very similar, like enoch is simply the concept of enough. That is the son of Cain, pain persist until you have had enough. There are two Enoch's, one is from pain and the other is from pleasure. "Content". The alpha numeric trace back is useless because it disregards the way people morphed words over time from mixing cultures and dialects. Also you don't understand the dynamic of Cain and Abel has everything to do with the format of trees. Trees set the foundation for the design of all other body forms to follow in evolution, therefore Cain is the root of the system and Abel is the fruit of the system, physical and mental, that's the pattern to all the proceeding characters to always come in pairs, one is our physical aspect and the other is the mental.
"cmon a bear cannot kill 42 children"
Depends on your mythology. Remember our friends the hittites? The husband of Bathsheba. Not actually hititte but Luwian.
"The name may be related to Greek árktos "bear" (from PIE *h₂ŕ̥tḱos), supported by the bear cult the goddess had in Attica (Brauronia) and the Neolithic remains at the Arkoudiotissa Cave, as well as the story of Callisto, which was originally about Artemis (Arcadian epithet kallisto)"
Artemas was probably originally a luwian city goddess. Bear - Huntress - War. Artemas was the goddess of Ephesus, the city of the Johannine writers. There other god was Apollo and Dionysus which probably goes back to the Kura-Araxas culture which means these gods were very early in Aegean culture. Making Ephesus a kind of a holy city, like Eridu and Nippur
So the way I read this the longer such holy sites exist, the broader there legends spread because there is no TV or media and people wanna be enterianed by new stories. Kura-Araxas cukture got around, there was a site on the southern end of lake galillee.
The problem in bibilical "history" is the Yahwist euhemerized the gods of the land in order to remove their powers from the text. So there were gods in the stories and tgey plucked them out for theological reasons. So just imagine the god of bears is still there.
I’m not saying I agree with your hypothesis, but it’s interesting that the text makes the distinction that the bears are females. Any clue why the text says “she-bears” rather than just “bears”?
Greek árktos "bear".Arctic The constellation above the north pole is a bear, Ursa minor. The origins of the swastika. Antarctic means no bear Japheth is Pontic Greek. and the myth of Argo Navis comes from the Black sea. It is scribed upon the celestial globe. Japheth was welcomed in the tents of Shem. Genesis 9:27 One could conclude Japheth influenced the religion of the middle east enough for it to take shape up until the birth of Jesus. Cepas in biblical verses could denote Cepheus upon the celestial globe itself. Mt Helicon, being the same as Mt Zion but paralleled.
@@infiniti28160 How strong were the shrooms?
@@Darisiabgal7573 I have studied many subjects and started within a different discipline to religion and through the use of consillience spanning many subjects, my last thrust of tackling the scriptures to understand why people have a hard time trusting in what is written, was due to the war in the middle east that became more talked about upon the world stage.. People should learn to meditate.
@@infiniti28160 Sure bud.