I enjoy using a variation of number four, mechanically abstracting the additional forces and using them almost like contextual time limited special abilities. The galactic navy shows up as requested and immediately gets into a fight with Dr Doomsday's spacestation that turns the night sky to midday. Orbital bombardment might be available (spend your turn on the radio to delay-cast an improved fireball) but they're pretty busy up there (on a 3+ on d6, else no result). Cops show up and cast a dragnet around the block, so if The Pusher tries to flee the gunfight will key off the PCs to his location and The Pusher takes a few slugs, going to half health. Redlighted snipers are set at the water tower - anyone, PC or Cartel, who draws a gun in a room with west facing windows gets a free high initiative, high damage attack against them every other round. Players know this, Cartel members don't. The Town Guard charges into the cult compound with you. For simplicities sake we're not going to roll their attacks constantly, but you're unflankable and won't get ganged up on (more than 2 attackers against a given PC) while they're with you.
Another option that works particularly well for dnd or other games where the players are far above the individual capabilities of the guards (or police or whatever), is that a small group of guards is sent in to solve the problem and they get massacred, and now no more want to go in and they are just evacuating people or setting up a perimeter, and will take a long time to get enough numbers gathered or bring in their big guns. The players now also have the guilt aspect of being partially responsible for the deaths because they didn't handle the problem themselves, and if they wait for the authorities to handle the problem then more will go wrong in the meantime (probably in the form of deaths or the enemy escaping). I find guilt of weaker followers getting killed by the threats players are facing as a good way to avoid players getting masses of hirelings to adventure with them if it isn't the system for it. Even if they can afford them and it is better strategically on paper, unless the characters are completely heartless they are unlikely to be fine with dozens of comrades being fried by AOEs every mission. Even if they don't care, rumours are sure to spread about high employment turnover rates and they would have a hard time finding new hirelings. I also find it much more believable for authorities to take time to gather than individual big guns, even if bureaucracy isn't slowing things down unless you are in a big city then gathering a reasonable amount can take time, so time pressure can make it unviable.
This works if the 'cops' are not plausibly aware of either PC power (>cops) or enemy threat level (>cops). If the cops know both then it makes sense for them to defer to the PCs, maybe establish a permiter & provide support while the PCs go in. In a superhero or high level D&D game that typically makes the most sense.
A few extra approaches to this issue that occur to me (some genre-specific): Option 1: The Herd Must Not Know. In some ways a subset of Number 1 above, this approach works best for urban fantasy (a la The Dresden Files, or Chronicles of Darkness) and postulates an extensive supernatural underground which keeps itself concealed from the broader human society, out of fear that revealing themselves would touch off an apocalyptic civil war between human and "other" which neither side could possibly win. In the first place, if you establish this as an explicit part of the setting lore, the players are a lot less likely to even think of calling in the cops, because they'll have internalized that the authorities getting involved is a Bad Thing. In addition, this also means that if the PCs *try* to call in the cops, then all factions involved will join forces to thwart them, because the one thing *everyone* agrees on is that they don't want mortal authorities getting involved. Option 2: This Is Beyond You. This covers any situation where the Little Guys are simply useless against the threat in hand, whether because radically disparate powerlevels mean that the PCs can battle monsters that would slaughter whole detachments of the army or because you're fighting incorporeal ghosts that can only be harmed by magical weapons or any number of other reasons. Another variant of this is to use something similar to the classic Points Of Light setting, where there are islands of civilization in the midst of a sea of wilderness. In this sort of setting, maybe the local Guard patrols everything within a day's march of the town walls, and those areas are (relatively) safe and monster-free. But beyond those safe zones is the wilderness, where adventurers like the PCs go to hunt monsters and seek for treasure. You can even use this in a more modern setting, by setting the adventures and challenges in some kind of hidden realm or parallel dimension that the Little Guys cannot access. Another thought is that your Option #1 here (they don't believe them) can combine really nicely with Option #1 from the Big Guns video (It Works). What you do is you create a campaign where the PCs know from early on who the bad guy is and what his Evil Plan is, but they can't go to the cops because the cops wouldn't believe them (whether because they just plain don't have enough proof, the proof they have depends on supernatural abilities the cops wouldn't believe in, the proof would in some way incriminate them or cause other negative consequences, or whatever other reason). The goal of the campaign then becomes to acquire (or create!) evidence that the cops *will* believe in, and once the PCs have actually succeeded in that then you're past the climax and on mop-up. Anyway, really interesting video, and good breakdown of various approaches to this issue!
The moment the players call in the cops is a great way to show off your setting and the themes of your campaign. Is there a sufficiently built structure of law enforcers? Are they organized? Corrupt? Benign? Overworked? The first time the players call in the cops can have huge effect on how they deal with problems going forward. Do you want your players to feel like rogues flying solo? Have the cops not take them seriously. Do you want your players to care about their reputation? Have the cops tell them they don’t trust the players because of things they did. Do you want to make npc’s a valuable resource for the players? Make them useful and helpful, without overshadowing the player’s expertise. The players can then experience themes of corruption, reputation, law vs freedom, bureaucracy vs wild card and so on. The local law enforcement are a VERY important tool for showing what the culture is in you world. As an example: my players have reached a village occupied by the Cult of the Dragon. An actual dragon and her half-brother have laid claim to the village. Some villagers were cultists, and condone the occupation. The village guard cannot fight the dragon (pc hook!) so they defer to their main goal: keeping people safe. So now the guard have to capture rebels and enforce a new law. It’s great fun to see my PC’s understand the situation and investigate who is in the cult and who isn’t. Who secretly supports the rebels? The village guard can’t help the players, because their hands are tied! A dragon will take it out on the villagers, and no-one wants that. “Better for us to enforce the law, than them…”
Great subject! In my D&D campaigns the players are like the show Angel from the Buffy Franchise. They're detectives, but not problem solvers. "We found the problem and will take our finder's fee. You want us to solve it? Not our line of work. Post something on the notice board." It lets them play into the scenario of, agents of the kingdom have found XYZ and heroes are needed to deal with it. They're not the heroes but the spies and infiltrators. Most groups would take the money for "clean up" work in addition to the scouting, but it's a fun other side to RPGs being the detective agency or government contractors who wash their hands of the problem once they've fulfilled their end of the contract or reward system. Keep up the great work!
That's a great tip! Framing the call to the cops AS the victory lap is a great way of leaning in. And knowing that this is your group's modus operandi will let you prep the appropriate finales.
The perspective you bring to the game is great. You treat the scenario like a prism and every side is a new way to move ahead. Thank you for sharing. Love the spot on description of the pandemic, I laughed at that.
Number 3 is a great way to set the players on edge with uncertainty and paranoia. They've gotten some evidence, alerted the authorities, they think that they have solved the problem... only to find out that the Bad Guys not only aren't about to be neutralized, but the BGs are aware of the evidence, and perhaps even have it in their possession. This never fails to spook the players, as it dawns on them how much worse things are now; after something like that, they never leave it to the authorities again.
A classic variation from the old days is the Suicide Squad/Dirty Dozen scenario. Either the big guys or the little guys realize that having the PCs tackle the threat offers low risk and high deniability.
No problem. We often have (and are supposed to have) a way more "romantic", calm keeping picture of our systems. Reason: TV-Shows. In germany (and as far as I know in most "western" countries) the cops only react to emergency calls. If it is, let the situation escalate while the players describe details and maybe spoiler a to long response time on top. Its common in big citys while Demos, big accidents, TownSportEvents, etc,. Elsewhere its normal for exampel if there is another emrgency in the region. If no emergency was claimed, an officer will open a new case-file, interviewing details. Especially about the accusers and witnesses. Happend also when I received lifethreads who knew details about familymembers, workplace and home. The next free officers will interview the "suspect" at some point . If "filed against unknown" (german legal term) wait for closing-report. Btw: Playing lawyers and aiming with threads, paragraphs and "prime-case-sentence" (wrong term i guess), mybe salted by dropping local authority names is a MIGHTY SPELL Better call Saul Goodman!
Some more options: 1. if what the players do is illegal drawing police attention might be a bad idea, or at least a dangerous one. This can work with any organization that doesn't approve of the PCs for one reason or another. 2. Response time of five minutes is an eternity in the middle of a shootout, the police\millitary can come to bail the PCs out... if they survive long enough. 3. Sure the authorities can take care of the problem, but in a way that will shut the PCs from their personnel goals. Want to avenge your lovers death? Sorry the bad guy is facing 10 year prison sentence at the most and will most likely manage to get out on technicality, as the authorities just want to shut their operations down. Need to free your family from slavers? Well the authorities will just shut down the local ring and destroy your lead. Make sure the players understand what they lose if they let the plot become someone's else's problem, and they will only try to involve authorities in a limited manner.
First of all, keep doing these! Your blog had been a treasure trove, but I don't always have the time to be reading it. If I have free time then it's often prepping a campaign or the next session. Secondly, I've been trying to deal with exactly this problem. My most recent campaign setting the players are the cops. They're have it explained immediately that they're being sent there as a last ditch effort to solve what weirdness is affecting this town. Despite that, they're still constantly acting like they should write back to "base" to figure out how to deal with their situations. It's been a fun challenge to thread this needle just right.
I don't run a lot of games in modern/urban settings, but something I like to establish as part of a "busted future" tone is that there was a very high profile police cock-up right before the game starts-- centering around something (somehow) related to the mess the PCs are investigating-- so the police are on strike, and if you call the handful that are on-duty over "another goddamn X problem", they'll suddenly come down with the flu. It also explains why the PCs can act like PCs, or just walk down the street, without being bothered.
I'm reminded of Wuxia conventions, in which it seems like nine times out of ten any government officials that should in theory be getting involved are either too apathetic, too scared, or too corrupt to help at all. And if they do actually show up and try, they tend to be low-powered enough that the bad guys mop the floor with them just to show how powerful the bad guys are against ordinary folks.
I'm currently in a PF2e where my character is a guard from the main city. The party can't run to the city guards to help because technically the guard is already helping
Another video! Glad you're back. My favorite is #4 Defer to the PCs. This is the best way to make the PCs really feel like Heroes. It reinforces that their decisions matter. I'm a big fan of letting PCs drive any NPCs that have joined the party. This has worked with 100% success for me over the years.
Absolutely. In episodic play having the cops take over the first time they're called, deputize the heroes to help on the second and third times, and finally start treating them as coequals or the people to look for for guidance after that can give a great sense of progression, if a GM knows that calling them in is the kind of thing the players are likely to do frequently.
This is the primary problem for role players who really want to play their characters ‘exactly as they would behave’. Very interested to hear what your solutions might be…
What this man can convey in 7 minutes will change your games for the better, instantly. This video is the epitome of efficiency.
Amen!
I enjoy using a variation of number four, mechanically abstracting the additional forces and using them almost like contextual time limited special abilities.
The galactic navy shows up as requested and immediately gets into a fight with Dr Doomsday's spacestation that turns the night sky to midday. Orbital bombardment might be available (spend your turn on the radio to delay-cast an improved fireball) but they're pretty busy up there (on a 3+ on d6, else no result).
Cops show up and cast a dragnet around the block, so if The Pusher tries to flee the gunfight will key off the PCs to his location and The Pusher takes a few slugs, going to half health. Redlighted snipers are set at the water tower - anyone, PC or Cartel, who draws a gun in a room with west facing windows gets a free high initiative, high damage attack against them every other round. Players know this, Cartel members don't.
The Town Guard charges into the cult compound with you. For simplicities sake we're not going to roll their attacks constantly, but you're unflankable and won't get ganged up on (more than 2 attackers against a given PC) while they're with you.
Did not expect the commentary on current events - and I admire you all the more for it. Looking forward to more great advice!
Me neither but it made me bust out laughing and like Justin all the more.
2 alexandrian videos in 8 days! Whose birthday is it?
I don't want to jinx it, but if all goes well this will be the new normal!
Another option that works particularly well for dnd or other games where the players are far above the individual capabilities of the guards (or police or whatever), is that a small group of guards is sent in to solve the problem and they get massacred, and now no more want to go in and they are just evacuating people or setting up a perimeter, and will take a long time to get enough numbers gathered or bring in their big guns. The players now also have the guilt aspect of being partially responsible for the deaths because they didn't handle the problem themselves, and if they wait for the authorities to handle the problem then more will go wrong in the meantime (probably in the form of deaths or the enemy escaping). I find guilt of weaker followers getting killed by the threats players are facing as a good way to avoid players getting masses of hirelings to adventure with them if it isn't the system for it. Even if they can afford them and it is better strategically on paper, unless the characters are completely heartless they are unlikely to be fine with dozens of comrades being fried by AOEs every mission. Even if they don't care, rumours are sure to spread about high employment turnover rates and they would have a hard time finding new hirelings.
I also find it much more believable for authorities to take time to gather than individual big guns, even if bureaucracy isn't slowing things down unless you are in a big city then gathering a reasonable amount can take time, so time pressure can make it unviable.
This works if the 'cops' are not plausibly aware of either PC power (>cops) or enemy threat level (>cops). If the cops know both then it makes sense for them to defer to the PCs, maybe establish a permiter & provide support while the PCs go in. In a superhero or high level D&D game that typically makes the most sense.
Option 5? The cops take over, charge in to try and solve the problem but get obliterated, leaving an even bigger mess for the party.
Option 5-A: the party is now wanted for the murder of the dead cops.
That's pretty much the Die Hard #1 & #2 approach.
A few extra approaches to this issue that occur to me (some genre-specific):
Option 1: The Herd Must Not Know. In some ways a subset of Number 1 above, this approach works best for urban fantasy (a la The Dresden Files, or Chronicles of Darkness) and postulates an extensive supernatural underground which keeps itself concealed from the broader human society, out of fear that revealing themselves would touch off an apocalyptic civil war between human and "other" which neither side could possibly win. In the first place, if you establish this as an explicit part of the setting lore, the players are a lot less likely to even think of calling in the cops, because they'll have internalized that the authorities getting involved is a Bad Thing. In addition, this also means that if the PCs *try* to call in the cops, then all factions involved will join forces to thwart them, because the one thing *everyone* agrees on is that they don't want mortal authorities getting involved.
Option 2: This Is Beyond You. This covers any situation where the Little Guys are simply useless against the threat in hand, whether because radically disparate powerlevels mean that the PCs can battle monsters that would slaughter whole detachments of the army or because you're fighting incorporeal ghosts that can only be harmed by magical weapons or any number of other reasons.
Another variant of this is to use something similar to the classic Points Of Light setting, where there are islands of civilization in the midst of a sea of wilderness. In this sort of setting, maybe the local Guard patrols everything within a day's march of the town walls, and those areas are (relatively) safe and monster-free. But beyond those safe zones is the wilderness, where adventurers like the PCs go to hunt monsters and seek for treasure. You can even use this in a more modern setting, by setting the adventures and challenges in some kind of hidden realm or parallel dimension that the Little Guys cannot access.
Another thought is that your Option #1 here (they don't believe them) can combine really nicely with Option #1 from the Big Guns video (It Works). What you do is you create a campaign where the PCs know from early on who the bad guy is and what his Evil Plan is, but they can't go to the cops because the cops wouldn't believe them (whether because they just plain don't have enough proof, the proof they have depends on supernatural abilities the cops wouldn't believe in, the proof would in some way incriminate them or cause other negative consequences, or whatever other reason). The goal of the campaign then becomes to acquire (or create!) evidence that the cops *will* believe in, and once the PCs have actually succeeded in that then you're past the climax and on mop-up.
Anyway, really interesting video, and good breakdown of various approaches to this issue!
The moment the players call in the cops is a great way to show off your setting and the themes of your campaign. Is there a sufficiently built structure of law enforcers? Are they organized? Corrupt? Benign? Overworked? The first time the players call in the cops can have huge effect on how they deal with problems going forward. Do you want your players to feel like rogues flying solo? Have the cops not take them seriously. Do you want your players to care about their reputation? Have the cops tell them they don’t trust the players because of things they did. Do you want to make npc’s a valuable resource for the players? Make them useful and helpful, without overshadowing the player’s expertise.
The players can then experience themes of corruption, reputation, law vs freedom, bureaucracy vs wild card and so on. The local law enforcement are a VERY important tool for showing what the culture is in you world.
As an example: my players have reached a village occupied by the Cult of the Dragon. An actual dragon and her half-brother have laid claim to the village. Some villagers were cultists, and condone the occupation. The village guard cannot fight the dragon (pc hook!) so they defer to their main goal: keeping people safe. So now the guard have to capture rebels and enforce a new law. It’s great fun to see my PC’s understand the situation and investigate who is in the cult and who isn’t. Who secretly supports the rebels? The village guard can’t help the players, because their hands are tied! A dragon will take it out on the villagers, and no-one wants that. “Better for us to enforce the law, than them…”
Great subject! In my D&D campaigns the players are like the show Angel from the Buffy Franchise. They're detectives, but not problem solvers. "We found the problem and will take our finder's fee. You want us to solve it? Not our line of work. Post something on the notice board." It lets them play into the scenario of, agents of the kingdom have found XYZ and heroes are needed to deal with it. They're not the heroes but the spies and infiltrators. Most groups would take the money for "clean up" work in addition to the scouting, but it's a fun other side to RPGs being the detective agency or government contractors who wash their hands of the problem once they've fulfilled their end of the contract or reward system. Keep up the great work!
That's a great tip! Framing the call to the cops AS the victory lap is a great way of leaning in.
And knowing that this is your group's modus operandi will let you prep the appropriate finales.
That's basically what they did in most of the Leverage episodes, too. Good call!
The perspective you bring to the game is great. You treat the scenario like a prism and every side is a new way to move ahead. Thank you for sharing. Love the spot on description of the pandemic, I laughed at that.
Number 3 is a great way to set the players on edge with uncertainty and paranoia. They've gotten some evidence, alerted the authorities, they think that they have solved the problem... only to find out that the Bad Guys not only aren't about to be neutralized, but the BGs are aware of the evidence, and perhaps even have it in their possession. This never fails to spook the players, as it dawns on them how much worse things are now; after something like that, they never leave it to the authorities again.
A classic variation from the old days is the Suicide Squad/Dirty Dozen scenario. Either the big guys or the little guys realize that having the PCs tackle the threat offers low risk and high deniability.
I usually watch every video at 2x speed, but I have to savor Alexandrian videos when they come out.
Yep, same here. I think it also helps that Justin talks at speed with clarity, and doesn't pad the videos out!
I make videos that I would want to watch. ;)
@@TheAlexandrian it shows! It’s easy to fall into the trap of trying to please ‘The Algorithm’ and not the viewer.
No problem. We often have (and are supposed to have) a way more "romantic", calm keeping picture of our systems. Reason: TV-Shows.
In germany (and as far as I know in most "western" countries) the cops only react to emergency calls. If it is, let the situation escalate while the players describe details and maybe spoiler a to long response time on top. Its common in big citys while Demos, big accidents, TownSportEvents, etc,. Elsewhere its normal for exampel if there is another emrgency in the region.
If no emergency was claimed, an officer will open a new case-file, interviewing details. Especially about the accusers and witnesses. Happend also when I received lifethreads who knew details about familymembers, workplace and home.
The next free officers will interview the "suspect" at some point . If "filed against unknown" (german legal term) wait for closing-report.
Btw: Playing lawyers and aiming with threads, paragraphs and "prime-case-sentence" (wrong term i guess), mybe salted by dropping local authority names is a MIGHTY SPELL
Better call Saul Goodman!
Thanks for the English subtitles, it makes the video easier to watch by translating it into Spanish. (Google Translate) ❤❤
Some more options:
1. if what the players do is illegal drawing police attention might be a bad idea, or at least a dangerous one. This can work with any organization that doesn't approve of the PCs for one reason or another.
2. Response time of five minutes is an eternity in the middle of a shootout, the police\millitary can come to bail the PCs out... if they survive long enough.
3. Sure the authorities can take care of the problem, but in a way that will shut the PCs from their personnel goals. Want to avenge your lovers death? Sorry the bad guy is facing 10 year prison sentence at the most and will most likely manage to get out on technicality, as the authorities just want to shut their operations down. Need to free your family from slavers? Well the authorities will just shut down the local ring and destroy your lead. Make sure the players understand what they lose if they let the plot become someone's else's problem, and they will only try to involve authorities in a limited manner.
First of all, keep doing these! Your blog had been a treasure trove, but I don't always have the time to be reading it. If I have free time then it's often prepping a campaign or the next session.
Secondly, I've been trying to deal with exactly this problem. My most recent campaign setting the players are the cops. They're have it explained immediately that they're being sent there as a last ditch effort to solve what weirdness is affecting this town. Despite that, they're still constantly acting like they should write back to "base" to figure out how to deal with their situations. It's been a fun challenge to thread this needle just right.
I don't run a lot of games in modern/urban settings, but something I like to establish as part of a "busted future" tone is that there was a very high profile police cock-up right before the game starts-- centering around something (somehow) related to the mess the PCs are investigating-- so the police are on strike, and if you call the handful that are on-duty over "another goddamn X problem", they'll suddenly come down with the flu.
It also explains why the PCs can act like PCs, or just walk down the street, without being bothered.
I'm reminded of Wuxia conventions, in which it seems like nine times out of ten any government officials that should in theory be getting involved are either too apathetic, too scared, or too corrupt to help at all. And if they do actually show up and try, they tend to be low-powered enough that the bad guys mop the floor with them just to show how powerful the bad guys are against ordinary folks.
As a player in a Chronicles of Darkness game, calling the cops comes up a lot. Especially when one of our player characters is one.
This is a great breakdown of how the system can fail you. :)
I'm currently in a PF2e where my character is a guard from the main city. The party can't run to the city guards to help because technically the guard is already helping
Got 'em. :)
Another video! Glad you're back. My favorite is #4 Defer to the PCs. This is the best way to make the PCs really feel like Heroes. It reinforces that their decisions matter. I'm a big fan of letting PCs drive any NPCs that have joined the party. This has worked with 100% success for me over the years.
Absolutely. In episodic play having the cops take over the first time they're called, deputize the heroes to help on the second and third times, and finally start treating them as coequals or the people to look for for guidance after that can give a great sense of progression, if a GM knows that calling them in is the kind of thing the players are likely to do frequently.
I love ALL Alexandrian videos.
You're passionate about this. And I like that.
This is the primary problem for role players who really want to play their characters ‘exactly as they would behave’. Very interested to hear what your solutions might be…
"Cluster Fuck" is the perfect terminology for what has been found on. Well stated, sir.
Insightful as always! Thanks for covering this so clearly.
Hi Alexandrian, it has been a while. How are you doing?
Fantastic advice. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!