Is The Sumo Deadlift Cheating? (Response To CBum)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Is it?
All my science-based training programs: jeffnippard.com
Get my Ultimate Guide To Body Recomposition here:
shop.jeffnippa...
If you're still in your first 1-2 years of lifting, I strongly recommend running my Fundamentals Program: shop.jeffnippa...
-------------------------------
Help SUPPORT the channel by:
1. Trying one of my training programs: → www.jeffnippard...
2. Checking out what my sponsors have to offer:
▹ MASS (Monthly Research Review)
‣
‣ Only $25/month (pre-paid yearly)
▹ PEScience Supplements
‣ www.PEScience.com
‣ Use discount code JEFF to save $$
▹ RISE Training Gear and Sportwear
‣ rise.ca/jeff
‣ Use discount code JEFF to save 10%
The shirt, shorts and belt I'm wearing in this video can be found through this affiliate link. I earn a commission when you shop through the link below:
rise.ca/jeff
-------------------------------
In this video I'm covering the most common arguments for why the sumo deadlift is cheating and seeing if they hold up against the scientific evidence. People will often point to range of motion as the main reason for why conventional is superior. We will also look at what the science says about the biomechanical and muscle activation differences between conventional and sumo and look at some powerlifting examples from IPF Worlds.
-------------------------------
Sources:
Sources:
IPF Rulebook:
www.powerlifti...
Powerlifting Data:
/ thestrengthathlete
ROM:
www.massmember...
Biomechanics:
pubmed.ncbi.nl...
EMG Research:
pubmed.ncbi.nl...
Filmed by Jeff Nippard, Big 3 Media & Omar Isuf
Edited by Jeff Nippard using Final Cut Pro
-------------------------------
Follow me on social media:
INSTAGRAM ‣ / jeffnippard
SNAPCHAT ‣ / jeffnippard
FACEBOOK ‣ / jeffnippard
TWITTER ‣ / jeffnippard
PODCAST ‣ The Jeff Nippard Podcast on iTunes and Stitcher
-------------------------------
About me: I'm a Canadian natural pro bodybuilder and internationally-qualified powerlifter with a BSc in biochemistry/chemistry and a passion for science. I've been training for 12 years drug-free. I'm 5'5 and fluctuate between 160 lbs (lean) and 180 lbs (bulked).
-------------------------------
Disclaimers: Jeff Nippard is not a doctor or a medical professional. Always consult a physician before starting any exercise program. Use of this information is strictly at your own risk. Jeff Nippard will not assume any liability for direct or indirect losses or damages that may result from the use of information contained in this video including but not limited to economic loss, injury, illness or death.
For Chris Bumstead's Lawyer: Yes, Cbum is still in my basement. I'm sure we can work this out. Call me.
2:42 "Why would the majority of lifters choose not to use it?"
Well because it's cheating... duh
😂👍🏽👍🏽
Straight up don’t tell me do you really want to love me forever oh oh oh
xd
The biggest bum of them all, Chris.
U look good, maybe U will could become a IFBB Pro one day.
Never before have I ever seen or heard something as menacing as Jeff whistling the Harry Potter theme
Creepy shit
Beautiful.
sup sexy man 😘
Excuse me , what did you say? I don't speak smol back
Back Guy? More like Guy, cause no back ❤
Jeff no longer makes fitness “videos”. He has now transcended to fitness cinema. Proud of you, Jeff.
I was thinking….”Jeff Nippard Studio” or “Nippard Film” would be appropriate names for the new endeavor.
@@naturallywilde Nipp films
@@AlexAnteroLammikko nipplestudio
☝️🤓
The random tall guy should start a RUclips channel imo
naw he doesnt even look like he lifts when he has a shirt on, he probably has the worst genetics of any body builder
Nah, it would never be good
@@dragan176 bro
@@ivanbobanovic he’s joking ofc
@@ivanbobanovic bro
Something tells me Chris is gonna look really catabolic this year at the Olympia…
Not everyone deadlifts
Just like Omar's calves
@@user-xs4rm1ti8f has nothing to do with what he was saying lol
@@Max78912 lmao facts whats this guy on about xD
Omar you're still alive!! Get back to your youtube videos... they are missed.
Lmao at the Will Tenny random tall guy cameo at the gym.
That random guy has some good camera presence. He should start a youtube channel
@@leokal457 yeah looks like he'd be great doing a diet based one
Maybe he will even get sponsored to give 10% off supplement
@@ChamathEdi i think he could potentially hit 1 million subscribers at some point in the future too
@@ChamathEdi tenny10 for 10% 0ff?
That intro made me laugh WAY harder than it should have 😂
We need more Evil Jeff
actually we don't
@@wileecoyote5749 yeah. we do.
@@wileecoyote5749 shut up
Psycho Jeff sounds better :p
Another character added to the roster of Jeffs!
"Some random tall guy." Your delivery on this is comedy gold.
I want Will to become the Stan lee of fitness videos now
... and proceeds to give him the money...!! 😂😂😂😂
Lol, love the Will cameo
Frrr, that's no random!
Is it?
No
Nah
Yes
Yess
Perhaps
One of your best videos yet- the comedy, the content, the Will Tenny- a true masterpiece. Thank you Jeff for sharing this with us.
Random tall dude 🤣
I tought I was hallucinating when Will showed up😂
I discovered Will recently, compared to Jeff. Was hilarious seeing him show up!
@@tarantulamantis5189 right. I forgot whose video I was watching for a moment.
ignore this comment hes just trying to get views
Poor Cbum, saying sumo is cheating was the equivalent to hurting John Wick’s dog
no range of motion no dog alive
He killed his career on this comment
@@stevend481 can’t really kill your career when you’re the 3 time champ and regarded as a god
3 time olympia champion
@@stevend481 as if
An important factor that most people don't consider, that I'm glad you pointed out, is the variance in biomechanics from person to person. Sumo can be more of a "squat" for some people.
I have long femurs so I def have to get deep into hips to set up for sumo. but I have such long arms that it also greatly shortens the length of pull for me by about 4" vs conventional. so it's a trade-off
@@nottheone582 The visual I have of a person with abnormally long femurs and abnormally long arms makes me wonder if Dr. Frankenstein built you. Or you could just say that you're tall?
I do believe sumo is easier (allows you to pull more) - if we somehow included person's height into his starting point. If someone who is 6'6'' would pull from 12 inches and someone who is 5'6'' would pull from 10, we might see more balanced distribution between weight classes.
The lower weight class pulls sumo, because they are typically shorter people, for whom it is easier to get low enough to proper sumo position. For me (6'1'') sumo feels easier to lift, but at the same time I struggle to get low enough with knees properly out (due to long legs, long torso and short arms) - my knees are too high from the ground, and get in the way of the barbell.
Berbell
I have relatively long femurs and short torso and conventional makes me feel I have to bend over myself just to grab the bar. With sumo, torso is much more vertical and am much stronger that way. A friend with opposite proportions is better with conventional.
In not even going to lie, your comparisons of a short grip bench and short grip lat pulldown made PERFECT sense when compared to conventional vs sumo. I really never thought of it in that way, damn good work as always Jeff!
Yes i like that point too
@@TheArchm due to humans not being cranes lmao, our levers become less functional at certain angles
@@TheArchm saying that a shorter ROM is automatically easier shows that they know nothing about lifting, so I don’t even take them seriously
yes also thought that was a great analogy. also hitting the hard parts of the lift both ways
@@TheArchm bcs its uncomfortsble asf if you do it wide it becomes harder bcs the motion doenstt work well for your body
Jeff is the science geek of the fitness community
He is the obi wan to Mpmd's darth vader.
if you didn't know about his youtube you'd think this guy is an absolute gym bro but then you realise its the exact opposite
He’s Han Swolo
@@LowTide941 yo, that was so damn good.
Literally!
I’m 6’4” with long femurs. Traditional deadlifts suck for me, so I primarily do sumo. I also have a weaker lower back (something I’m working on), so the sumo deadlift helps me strengthen my legs more before my back fatigues. Just do what works best for your body, and stay in your lane.
I think I’m in the same situation! How’s your hamstring flexibility? I think that is also a reason why sumo is more comfortable for me even though I’m 6’3”. Hard to not round my lower back with conventional
@@RatanSur my hamstrings are way more flexible than they used to be. When I first started lifting, my hamstrings were consistently tight and were usually the first muscles to fatigue when squatting and deadlifting. I worked on some mobility exercises with my personal trainer that have helped me strengthen my hamstrings so that they aren’t the first muscles to fatigue anymore.
Sumo deadlifts won't help you strengthen your back. That's like the guys that lock there arms at right angles while doing curls with enormous delts saying their hitting their biceps,.. nope.
@@_.Dave._ never said sumo deadlifts help with your back. Just stated I’m also working on strengthening my back.
6’5" with long ass legs. I feel it more in the legs when I do sumo, but I prefer conventional due to more strengthening of my back
From now on I'll exclusively refer to Will as a "Random tall guy" everywhere.
"at my gym" too
Haha
Let’s all take a moment to process Jeff has a “life sized” cut out of Cbum
Que Dexter laboratory and Einstein scene
What do you think he gets off too?
wdym thats cbum himself
What... You don't?
The best part is spotting it randomly showing up in the background of some of the gym clips like 7:30
Jeff and Will in the same video is something that I didn’t expect but I’m glad it happened.👌🏽👌🏽
You mean random tall guy. Don't get confused.
Whats Will channel in youtube?
@@AMaz-zx9sj Will Tennyson
This is interesting because I'm 6'1. I noticed when I pull sumo, I actually get better glute activation. Which makes sense when you compared the knee range of motion, and how sumo is similar to full squat, and conventional is better compared to half squat. This difference is why I alternate sumo and conventional every other week. Even though the EMG results say there's no difference. I def feel the difference in my post workout soreness.
Same with me
Same here. My conventional moves really fast due to my long arms and legs. No matter how hard I try to squat low, my hamstrings and glutes take over and yank the weight. Sumo is heavy as hell.
Ahh, you gave me a simple but great way to include both of them without increasing the length of my sessions. Thanks, man. Have a great day!
you have realized the truth, don't listen to the dipshts that say to skip it, they're only in the gym for the glamor muscles, they're not even athletes. sumo dl and squats are game changers for hip mobility and therefore give strength gains no other lifts can. you're not imagining the pump being different, it's the same for me. do your sumo squats ass to grass and then tell me there's no difference. narrow stance focuses on thighs, wide stance focuses on hips. these tards have no idea about hip strength and therefore have (highly) incomplete strength. but they're only here for the glamor muscles and want to spend 2 hour laying down on a bench... losers, every last one of them.
i just pull sumo cause my back hurts😂
That walk over to the computer, with the whistle... Nailed that! lol
Harry potter theme
Had been giggling through the intro, then sitting down at the computer and a sigh into his usual video intro chipper voice 'Is the sumo deadlift cheating' made me burst out laughing
@@TitanFM That's the moment! I cracked up too. Comedy gold!
After watching this video I've come to the educated, science-based conclusion that conventional is cheating. Thank you Jeff!
🤣🤣🤣
HAHAHAHAHAH
Hahahhaha good one my dude
😂😂😂😂 LMAOO I agree 100 percent
Cope
I think this is my favorite video you've ever done, the comedy was on point lol. Definitely do more videos with Will...I mean the random stranger
@@Alex-Aviation huh?
Comedy was 😂😂😂🔥🔥 he needs to do more it’s a niche market
The whole "sumo is cheating" thing always seemed so bizarre to me. When I was competing as a 117 lb woman, I pulled conventional because it felt way easier for me than sumo. That hammered home for me that it is really about leverages and the relative proportions of your limbs. I just think the coolest part is seeing how heavy a thing you can pick up off the ground and set down again. If the lifter isn't risking injury, I think it's silly to get caught up in which stance/grip/etc they're using.
People will justify any ridiculous opinion they have just to feel superior to someone else.
@user-op8lh8nr8ilol😂
@user-op8lh8nr8icringe
@user-op8lh8nr8i go outside incel
That's because sumo technique has a learning curve. Please learn sumo and i guarantee you'll pull a lot more
i'm a tall guy with decently long arms and legs, and i am dogshit at sumo and can only lift a fraction compared to conventional. definitely depends on the body type and preference.
That’s because your technique is ass. You have more of a reason to pull sumo if you are taller not because you are short. Sumo is cheating if you call it a “Deadlift”
@@JSAF0 lmao
same here, i started out trying to sumo lift, and it puts too much strain on the inner part of my upper legs. you know, the part right next to my nutsack. dont know the name, this is not my first language. i switched to lifting conventional in fear of tearing the nutsack bordering tendons.
@@longdongmc.johnson your groin haha
@@longdongmc.johnson just add some stretching of these areas to ur routine. As 4 me I'm 2m tall and its much easier and safer for me doing sumo cuz in conventional I don't have enough space to do it with full comfort.
Anyway, it just works 4 me. Good luck!
He just paid some random tall dude at the gym that just happened to look like Will Tennyson to compare sumo to conventional..
That was the first hard laugh of the day Jeff thank you
This got me thinking, why are all the fitness RUclipsrs I watch Canadian.
@@jkfang they’re just more entertaining
I laughed so hard when he put the kiwi in Chris mouth 😂😂😂
“Eat some carbs Chris. You look catabolic.” ☠️
Me too I was dying lol 😂
☠️☠️☠️
"Shorter range of motion doesn't equal easier, because lifters can offset any reduction in ROM with an increase in weight."
True, but this is also why people consider it cheating!
"I have a 15% decrease in ROM with a 15% increase in weight" literally right there is why ya know. Totally agree with you!
Dude thank you. Like did no one notice that he literally says you then use more load to offset the decrease in ROM? This is exactly why people say it's cheating. It would appear, based on this video, that for every single person, sumo is not always going to be easier. But for those that can do both relatively equally, they will find they can lift more weight with sumo likely do to this range of motion decrease.
ALSO, with sumo, you can abuse your limb lenghts MUCH MORE. some people lift the weight a few inches and its done for them with sumo.
@@inmyhead00 I mean, arching and using a wide grip can be considered cheating one day. There should be limits to how wide you can go, as 1 inch ROM and calling it a bench is very different to the standard bench press that most people do.
exactly
"My sumo range of motion is 15% shorter, but I also lift about 15% more weight."
Work is force times distance. Assuming your conventional RoM (d) and weight (F) are both 1, the work you do is 1 E. For sumo, you'd be .85 d × 1.15 F = 0.9775 E. So for 2.25% less work, you get a 15% bigger number. I'm not sorry, but how is this NOT cheating? In a meet, the only number that matters is the weight that goes up, not what percentage of total exertion you think you're lifting at. If we're in a meet and you pull 225 at 75% effort and I pull 225 at 99.999% effort, guess what? We tie.
Cheating the laws of biomechanics and physics, good, cheating laws of the sport, bad. Like Bill Clinton said, if you’re not cheating you’re not trying
exactly, he started off by using powerlifting definitions then switched to bodybuilding. I don't know why he did this, am I: missing something?
More content like this, hilarious AND presenting the facts. You’re the best Jeff!
I’ve always looked at both of these exercises as different exercises just like narrow grip lat pull downs and wide grip lat pull downs. I just use whichever feels best for me regardless of muscle activation. Due to my leverages I cannot comfortably squat or deadlift with a narrow stance since my hips start internally rotating as my knees flex during the eccentric so I tend to use wider stances in both squats and deadlifts which just feels much better for me.
Someone with an actual brain. You are awarded all of the points.
@@DeDieuAntique hahahaha thank you
Sumo is cheating
I think the same thing. It seems obvious. It’s a different exercise
Exactly, they are different exercises and it doesn't make sense to use them interchangeably when comparing strength
I had some lower back issues in the past and after that using sumo positions feels just more safe for me and my lower back 🙃
same brother. although it took me a few months to adjust my feet position in sumo to lessen hip pain. my back feels safer in sumo and lowerback soreness after deadlifts gladly dont
exist anymore.
@@tsu1068 try using a hexbar
@@tsu1068 What did you do to lessen the hip pain? I am currently having the exact same problem.
same. i lifted conventional until I blew up my L4/L5. now its sumo for me, I find it more upright, less stress on lower back
Probabilmente sbagli la tecnica nel conventional
You covered and emphasised more on “range of motion” which is still the key however you missed another key point, “stability” in the stance/position which combined with the range of motion contributes significantly to the “ease” of lifting more in Sumo than Conventional.
Sumo’s stance/position is in a tripod fashion which offers significantly more stability overall in lifting than Conventional which significantly enhances overall lifting stability compared to the Conventional style.
This combined stability, along with an emphasised range of motion, plays a pivotal role in enabling the ease of lifting heavier weights in the Sumo deadlift.
Will Tennyson = random tall guy at the gym 😂😂
The editing, the writing, the comedy, everything is so good. The fact that you do it all yourself is unbelievable. You are the gold standard in RUclips fitness content. Period.
5:35 "i paid a random tall guy" yes indeed a very "random" one 😂😂. That cracked me up. And the exchange afterwards as well!
Will 😩
As a 6'1" guy with a 6'5" wingspan, I feel that conventional suits my body type more. My arms hang too low when my arms are apart and it feels like I am skipping part of the lift. I'm torn on if sumo and conventional should be separate lifts, given their slight mechanical differences. It varies so much person to person.
The video seemed to make it pretty clear that there's really not much difference. Very much the same lift, just with different emphasis in not many ways.
@@Siberius- but in reality there's a hell lot of difference. In case of me i can lift more in sumo but I'm a conventional lifter. And my height is 6 feet. Nothing to do with height and weight. Clearly the range of motion is less in sumo but the sumo guys won't accept that fact 😂
@@donnyinfinity - The next day I was thinking about that comment I left and was gonna find it to edit it a bit, but screw that. So I'm glad you replied lol.
I was going to add that while it is the same lift, and only has somewhat minor emphasis differences, that can still make each lift feel very different to do, and so powerlifting should ideally probably have lifters do both lifts and then combine the total number. They're different enough, that it's weird to have competitors do only one or the other.
As far as your comment goes, that's you. Plenty of others can't lift more when they do sumo.
The range of motion (knee flexion) for sumo is MORE than conventional. It's just that the bar doesn't travel as much, which is not what range of motion is.
As a short torso & long legs 5"7 guy, sumo works so much better with my anatomy.
@@vicnad92 same lol, sumo lets me deadlift without breaking my back
“You look catabolic”
The line hits like a dagger ..
Quality video Jeff, loved the Will and Chris cameos and everything was explained well! People really put their entire identity into which stance we pick a bar up with, so it’s nice to apply some good science and biomechanics to the debate
Lol. I thought the "Random guy at the gym" looked familiar.
@@garrettsweaney9394 yea I would love to see a collab between them!
I really like the graphic designs you’re using in charts or in showing significant points in your fitness movements. Overall, your videos are fun to watch and teaching.
*animation
I actually first hit 405 on sumo after trying it out for a month, since deadlift (conv) was a lacking movement for me. Note that I was sub-88kgs. After a month of layoff and an introductory such, i hit 405 conventional at 92kgs.
I suppose switching in-between and breaking the ceiling, be it mental or physical, is best.
nice
i agree. I slightly injured my back on conventional hitting 305. i did some recovery on sumo and hit 315 no problem. im considering on going back to conventional to see if i can improve on it again.
For most people sumo is an accessory to conventional and vis versa. They both address weaknesses of the other, making a combination of the 2 in a training plan beneficial for most!!
Damn you and your mature even handedness
You hit 405 kg ?! Damn !
5:58 - "reduction in range of motion. doesn't nessasarily equal easier because they can add more weight"
That is exactly what easier means?
Man! jeff just outdid himself. From whistling the harry potter theme to using will as a random tall guy and ending the video with cbum classic "what is up... RUclips" and obviously proving his science backed claims. This was so much fun ✨🔥
Don’t forget cbum silently watching in some of the clips
He can lift 15% heavier while doing sumos 🤔🤔🤔 interesting
Both are different, and both have more emphasis on different muscles. I’ve been doing conventional deadlifts for years , recently I’ve switched to sumo to diversify my training. I’ve noticed with sumo , your adductors, abductors, glute medius glute minimus, quads and calves are wayyyyyy more involved
Exactly, they are just different. That's why you'll see a lot of girls preferring sumo, to focus on glutes. Personally, I can lift more with conventional deadlifts, but still do sumo deadlifts more often to train glutes.
Yep. Then do squats!. Conventional deadlifts are designed to hit the other areas
Which one puts more stress on rotstor cuff scapula muscles?
@@batman-sr2px It feels like Sumos put more stress on the scapula. However I use double over hand grip you might be able to relieve some pressure off of the scapula with a hook grip
@@chrisperez2369 Squats and conventional deadlifts don't activate glute meds and mins at all, of course you can isolation for both but I find involving them in a big compound movement is beneficial.
I'm 6'2", 240lbs and I switched to sumo about a year ago. My deadlift is up about 70lbs since then and I feel much better after every session. Switching is one of the best decisions I've made at the gym.
What was your deadlift weight to start with
@@vitoconigliaro7926 about a year ago it was 550 and had been for about 2 years
We need to up those numbers
It's much better because the exercise is much easier. If you can't do more sumo style something is wrong. Add in the fact you're 6'2", the bar has to travel a lot farther conventional style.
@@jayoh2k I’m not sure there was anything wrong with KK or Benni’s deadlifts
Amazing content Jeff, still trying to figure out how you brought Chris to the gym tho 😂 … I always felt frustrated for feeling that conventional deadlift’s was so much harder for me than sumo, I always felt a lot of pressure in the back and much harder to progress.. It all makes more sense now. Thank you for that
Over my lifting career i've gone from 133lbs to 195lbs and at no point was sumo comfortable to me and that's what it all came down to, what feels right.
No it doesn't these lifts need to be standardized for the sake of competiton. You can't compare a sumo deadlifter to a conventional deadlifter in competition because they are different lifts. That shouldn't be a thing in a competitive sport.
@@alexwenger9655 Do the same for the remaining two lifts and then your argument is valid and logical.
But until then, conventional deadlifting is cheating and only snatch grip deadlifts are the true test of hip hinging strength lmao
@@talonwoolsey3 sound good to me. We've got people folding themselves in half to bench press and people doing ultra wide squat stances to reduce rom. It's rediculous
@@alexwenger9655 he straight up explained how similar they are
@@alexwenger9655 short and and short arm people yeah it's bullshit
Long Arm and long legs people it's respectable
8:59 3 lines above the marked text it is stated: "25-40% [energy expenditure] greater in the conventional group."
Nice catch, wonder why that was not addressed.
@@DS-ej9wm he states that HE can lift more weight, as he is a shorter individual and his leverages support sumo better whereas a taller/ heavier individual wouldn't find this strength boost even if he reduced the ROM
That doesn't even matter, means you probably can do more reps with sumo, in rep endurance it matters but strength and hyperthrophy you're not aiming for rep endurance.
Did you read the full sentence or only start at the most convenient point? It's based on work which only takes into account force and displacement. By that logic the predicted energy expenditure on an explosive 50kg upright row could be similar to a 400kg above the knee rack pull and it should be obvious one is significantly harder than the other. Work ≠ difficulty
yes, because the distance is longer in conventional.
but a max strength lift is not failed because you are to weak over a whole distance, a lift is failed because you are to weak at the point of failure. many people seem to not get this point.
Okay so as far as "cheating goes" if it is allowed, it is not cheating. But if you are talking world record numbers, it is incredibly important to note whether it was a sumo deadlift or not. The mechanics are important and lifting something in a different way, resulting in more movement, is not the same lift and should not be considered for the same world record.
As a intermediate, the transition to sumo has meant my form has not only become more consistent, but also heavier and safer. Conventional just stresses my hips and makes me want to use my back more, which became an issue at higher weights resulting in worse form. I'm 6'3, 105kg.
For me, 1.8m, 75kg, I started off with sumo first because my friends were mostly doing sumo, I hit a PR of 160kg in about 6 months of regular PPL.
Recently, I did a switch to train conventional as well, about 3 weeks now, and I'm still struggling to do 140kg 1RM with conventionals cleanly.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 good advice, im trying to gain more mass, almost 8 months into gymming now, so i made some mistakes, now i only attempt my max during deload.
Well conventional is more back. Sumo is more like a squat.
What you are saying resonated with me 100%. I find sumo allows me to lift with stricter form and virtually no back pain, which was an issue for me around my 1RM, while moving more weight.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 nah it's more hip mobility, I've got the same problem for my squats, so I've got a really open stance. It's just meant I can push safer and higher.
You pointed out you compensate for the shorter range of motion with more weight, that's what I think people mean by "cheating". Not so much if one is objectively easier than the other but that you can lift more weight with one than the other with possibly an equal amount of effort.
But why is a wide grip bench press not cheating versus a close grip bench press? They are just different variations of bench presses. Just like sumo and conventional deadlift. Not cheating, just different.
not everyone can lift more with sumo though. If you can, it probably means that your leverages are better for sumo and you should train it if you desire maximum strength.
@@nhatho1723 if you watch the lifters who have a stupid arch in bench also go very wide so less rom, they just tend to often be female and in smaller weight categories cause big dudes aren’t always as flexible, that’s why you won’t see it as much
@@nhatho1723 FALSE. Sumo is the decline bench. it’s easier and shouldn’t even be counted as a lift. It’s a sumo lift not deadlift.
I sometimes wonder if commenters even watch the video.
"Random tall guy" fucking love it
I'm wondering if main reason the heavier (and generally taller) lifters in your data don't prefer sumo is because the available space for foot placement remains constant regardless of height, which would reduce the advantage for those taller lifters. Basically, the available width between the plates on the barbell is the same if you're 5' or 7' tall. That would also line up with the reduced difference in vertical movement between the two approaches for taller lifters compared to the shorter lifters. Anyway, that seemed like a reasonable explanation that I didn't noticed being called out in the video. So maybe Chris is right if you are comparing the movements for shorter lifters instead of an across the board advantage.
Props to Jeff for trying to end this stupid debate, unfortunately I think people like to argue too much for it to ever be truly resolved.
There’s no debate, sumo is cheating
@@lukas_g243 Some people are simply not built to pull conventional. So they both are equal
The Intro is just what we expected 🔥 Nippard Supremacy
I think it's important to mention bar bend w/ the extreme outlier heavy sumo pulls. A sumo stance allows your hands to be much closer together than a conventional stance, which increased the moment arm length between the weight and the hand, which allows the bar to bend a hell of a lot more for the same weight. Similar to stiff bar vs deadlift bar, or deadlifting from 1-2in blocks, this can make the pull much easier from the floor which is a huge advantage for some. Watch someone like Jerry Pritchett who deadlifts with an insanely wide grip. The bar hardly flexes even at 1000lbs, compared to any 800+# sumo pull.
Interesting edge case, maybe Jeff needs to hire you as a consultant for the future. Although, he did show that the majority of lifters who could manage the outlier heavy sumo pull prefer to pull conventionally, which minimizes the significance of your proposed edge case. Still interesting to think about.
This comment should be pinned
Underrated comment
@@sirfranciscanadianbacon1468 YO actually a well reasoned OC with a well reasoned rebuttal. Points to both
That's super advantageous at high weight.
Adding weight to make up for reduce ROM is fine for exercise, but is only an admittance that in competition, sumo should be considered a different lift.
I’d really love to see some research into the impact torso to leg ratio has on deadlift leverages and overall performance.
Same. I’m 6’3" with a short torso. If I normal squat with no weight, I have to go up on my toes or I fall backwards every time. My friend is the same height but his torso is at least 3 inches longer and he can normal squat with feet flat no problem. It’s weird because I am much more flexible than him.
@@JakeVincentDelpine Interesting. I was expecting this to be talked about in a bit more detail but maybe there isn’t much information or research on it. I’m 6’1” 6 years of training and i MUCH prefer sumo for comfort, leverage, and overall load.
@@JakeVincentDelpine I have very long femurs compared to my torso yet I do mainly ATG squats and can easily do so with just my bodyweight too. You say you are "flexible" but that doesn't apply to your whole body, you can be flexible in your hamstrings but not your spine. However, regarding deep squats, it's not an issue of flexibility but rather mobility. You most likely lack mobility in your ankles and hips, which is what you need in order to do a deep squat. Although your friend has a longer torso which helps with squatting and staying upright in a squat, if you have no mobility then you can't do a deep squat, long torso or not. Simply working on your ankle dorsiflexion and hip mobility every day will allow you to achieve a deep ATG squat with your heels planted on the ground. You can also progressively get better at this by doing assisted deep squats.
The best start to one of your videos to date. Had me laughing during my lunch break😂
Thanks for another great video Jeff. When I started lifting, I started conventional. Lifted for almost 2 years before trying sumo. When I did, I was shocked to discover that sumo was way harder for me than conventional. Now I always use both in my cycles when I program 2 pull days per week. My conventional is still 60lbs over my sumo, so until my sumo pulls get better than my conventional, I will continue to use conventional for powerlifting meets, although I honestly will never say nor secretly think that some other dude pulling sumo at the same meet is cheating. For your reference, I am 44 years old, 6'2" tall and weigh 185lbs and closing in on 3 years of lifting experience. Current single records are 424lbs conventional, 365lbs sumo - Calculated 1RM records are 443lbs conventional, 383lbs sumo.
Blown away by another video of yours. Thanks for producing these extreme high quality informative videos with a dash of your humor too.
Never was good at sumo. Maybe it’s my hip mobility or something, but I remember I couldn’t get 315 sumo, but managed 365 conventional in the same workout. Definitely isn’t cheating in my book
It's 100% your mobility. Sumo will always be lighter (cheating) if you have the flexibility. Simple physics.
I agree. My numbers are exactly the same as yours lol. Could never get more than 3 plates on SUMO.. I really wanted to be good at it, but it could never get it to the same numbers as my conventional..
It’s a different lift. A conventional deadlift is supposed to be hip hinge movement whereas the point of sumo is to try and eliminate the hip hinge as much as possible. It should be contested separately if at all
@@legrandfromage9682 @8:52 "At no point was there [in the study] a significant difference in hip extension demands between sumo and conventional. This is probably why EMG research shows no difference between glute and hamstring activation between sumo and conventional."
@@HaloDude557 it’s not simple physics uve ignored the entire video
We need more videos like this Jeff! Hilarious and educational! I had a giant smile this whole video!
Completely agree hope he see this
I can't even do conventional deadlifts because I have really deep hip sockets... I was so shattered but after actually doing sumos, I fell in love with em! Mostly because of how good they feel, it was even therapeutic to all that hip and back pain I got from conventional deadlifts! Now I'm pain free! Weeeee!
That "weeee!" part wat so adorable I like it it made me smile a bit tehe 🤭
The real issue that causes people to call Sumo "cheating," is the increase of athletes who use a ridiculously wide sumo stance. They usually are feet rotated way out to the sides with a stance so wide they risk crushing their toes with the plates. The ROM at that point is over 5" in difference from conventional pulling. They're knees are already mostly extended also. So like you said, with a high partial squat being the easiest part, they're knees being almost fully extended allows for just the tiniest bit of knee and hip extension to lock out. So with 2 joints (knees, hip) going through maybe at most 15° of ROM max to move a barbell up 12", then people become skeptical.
Your sumo stance is very very narrow compared to a lot of the sumo pullers that show up on my feed. If you look at Brian Shaws deadlift he uses a stupid wide conventional stance, almost as wide as your sumo. However he keeps his hands between his knees thus keeping it a "conventional," pull.
I’ve seen the same which confused me because I thought vertical shins was one of the hallmarks of a good sumo setup. The people I see going super wide have their shins diagonal and it looks like their MCLs are about to explode when they start lifting
Doesn't matter how wide thier legs are because thier trading for a shorter range of motion for in increase in force per distance required to pull the bar above thier knees. The total force required is still same either way.
This had me laughing hard, best video by far. This was informative (always is), included passive comedy (best yet), and really dove in to a topical issue in current trends (always do). Keep it up Jeff, I'm certainly a fan.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Conventional deadlift WR: 501 kg
Sumo deadlift WR: 454 kg
It looks like it should be the other way around.
@Watch Dog2 like it would even matter all the top level strongmen would suck ass at sumo cause of the lacking mobility
@Watch Dog2 it’s banned in one organization literally every other allows it
@Watch Dog2 idk if that is a credible statement I would like a source on that I’d say Olympic is the biggest in my opinion
It seems like we wont talk about the distance between the hip and the bar today, but that's what I consider the most important part. Legs are straighter, the bar is closer to the hip, and the torso is also straighter, what makes it faster to get into a locking position with the bar already lifted. In the end, it's an advantage, and the difference in range of motion is not in the bar movement, it is in fact in the angle your legs make with your torso measuring from the hip and taking into account also the knees. Let's say your legs and torso must reach 180º, yes? That would be standing straight, but the sumo stance starts with your torso/leg angle at almost 90º already, so you'll only have to move another 90º to get the 180º, and for your leg/calves, with sumo it is already over 100º, so you has to move a lot less. Now for conventional, your back have to travel a lot more. The hip/leg angle can even be lower than 45º, so you have to end up rotating your hip up to 135º, and your leg/calves never gets over 90º, in fact it extends from 45º to 90º, which leads to a range of movement of 90º to 135º. Also, another thing to take into account, is that the axis of main rotation, which would be your hip, is far closer to the line of movement of the bar, what makes it easier to lift, the same as grabbing a bar from one end, and adding a brick with tape to add wheight, the longer it is from the end you are holding, the more difficult it'll be to lift. So, is sumo cheating? Well, cheating or not, it's easier, but it will depend on your height. If you legs can't fit into the standard barbell length while holding a good sumo stance, it's pointless. My resolution? Instead of just one lift, make it two, one category for conventional, and another for sumo. Force lifters to train both and nobody will complain because it will be normalized to have both PRs.
I train both, but my hip mobility makes conventional harder and I really feel more pain in the lower back (Already injured before). When I do Sumo, I feel less stress on my lower back and for that reason I can pull more weight. Also, my legs are long and my arms a little short, making sumo a better option based on my individual biomechanic.
So I agree with everything said in this video.
For me as a tall guy (6'4) I feel I can lift more conventionally because of leverages but I prefer sumo because I feel it's easier to keep my back straight and my form correct. I was training someone who struggled with conventional deadlift form and they found the same thing with sumo.
That's interesting, hip mobility means sumo is harder and more inconsistent for me than conventional. Conventional always feels and moves the same for me regardless of how my body feels that day, although like you said it does put more stress on the lower back and I do struggle with heavier (>80%) weight on the conventional
When you say hip mobility makes conventional harder what do you mean? As in you have good or bad hip mobility?
@@Kenan-de7uv I have a good external rotation and a little restrict internal rotation because of my hip bone structure. For example, when I performe a squat with a narrow stance is harder compared with the wide stance (Jeff already talked about this in a video).
@@OUTSiiiD3R Hmm that’s interesting I feel like that might apply to me as well
Clear, concise, no bro bs, as always, Jeff is the King we wanted ! I (80kilos, 173cm male) recently found I liked sumo more than conventional, even though I did the later for far longer, but was not happy about my progress on the DL. With the switch, AND the fact I placed DL at the beginning of the week, I enjoy it a lot more, and feel stronger on it.
I did conventional for 3 years and was hesitant to switch to sumo because of the whole stigma that "sumo is cheating". I did it anyways, and when I started recording myself I wondered why the bar didn't look like it moved less. So I measured myself doing both stances and turns out my range of motion decreases by 3 inches. I also have narrow hips, so I cannot wedge as much. This causes my back to not be as upright as other sumo pullers. I also cannot do an extremely wide stance because again, my hips won't allow it. If I tried, they would just shoot back and my back becomes essentially parallel to the floor. I would be basically doing a wide stance conventional pull lol.
The whole argument is meaningless anyways. Sumo uses more quads + knee extension and less posterior chain, while conventional uses more posterior chain and hamstring but less quads. It's equivalent to someone doing a wide stance squat using more of their hamstrings and glutes than someone doing a narrow stance squat using more of their quads. You should be training both anyways, because there's evidence that sumo lifters benefit from doing conventional as well.
Definitely a meaningless arguement and this is the most important fact that people are forgetting: to mind their own damn business...people are in the gym to be a better version of themselves and only average gym goers seem to be the only ones arguing about this shit when in turn theyre a bunch of fuckin nobodies. Seems pro-lifters are far more supportive of people lifting in what others specialize/compete in.
The problem is that people equate the two versions...would you compare your squat weight to your leg press weight...
@@ggsdude1 Couldn’t have said it better
@@raghu5038 Not even a close comparison. Squat is a full body compound movement vs a fixed path seated machine leg press lol. Compare high bar or lowbar squats or narrow vs wide stances squats instead
You can improve your hip mobility, and this will sound weird but trust me, check out some videos of ballet dancers improving their turnout. It's the same thing :)
I have a hypothesis on this. With the conventional DL, the heavier you get, you get more support from the pressure between the thighs and the abdomen. This makes it easier to start the weight moving from the bottom of the lift. Just like doing leg press with really narrow stance, it makes it alot easier to stop the weight at the bottom. Any opinions on this?
And about the cheating part, conventional and sumo are just different movements. I don't see how one gets called out as cheating.
Different movement you say. If it's a different movement then it shouldn't be used?
"I just don't understand how people call dribbling the ball with their feet at a basketball game cheating. It's just different sports and rule sets 😐🤷"
You're just giving us good examples for why there should be seperate events - conventional and sumo.
@@schmui more like dribbling with your palm vs with fingers. But everyone has their own opinion
Really love when you incorporate skits or acting into these videos. Been stoked to watch ever since the announcement yesterday and it did not disappoint! 👌
EAT A KIWI CHRIS im dead lmao
7:28.... how did he escape the basement?
I’ve always treated convention DL’s as a back / leg exercise and sumo’s more of a glutes / leg exercise, especially after watching Jeff’s deadlift video where he stressed to “pack your lats”.
But sumo doesn’t work your glutes anymore than conventional. You could even argue it’s worse for loading the glute because it puts them at a disadvantageous position and it doesn’t stretch as much.
Isn't conventional hit more glute because more ROM for the hips and also more hip hinge?
@@jeremiahh9839 source?
@@TheyCallMeJurd the source is literally this video, Jeff says it in here
Jeff always is so good about presenting facts, I'm not sure if I was eating kiwis wrong my whole life
Love that you’re branching out with your style of content. Keep it up brother, we all learn so much plus it’s entertaining
Whole reason I switched to sumo deadlift was to reduce the torque around my lumbar spine. I've had 2 back surgeries from athletics so don't want to mess it up if I can avoid it. Still do conventional every so often, but only when I keep it pretty light.
I use sumo deadlifting for maxing out only no shame in switching techniques protect the back yall
I do the same, already injured my lower back and sumo helps to avoid another injury
As 5’4 male, sumo definitely feels more comfortable for me, but I mix in the 2 to workout my back with conventional and glutes with sumo.
This might actually be my favorite RUclips video ever
Everything about it
Covers a topic thoroughly, putting the debate to rest
And the humor and cameos were clutch
I’m so happy
Thank you for making my day
Good one
bonus thumbs up for the use of "clutch"
2:07 eyy YOOO....ma man just flew 10 feet in the air!!
Thats them quads
I died when he started whistling Harry Potter in the intro
I started doing deadlifts about 4 years ago and while experimenting between the 2, sumo was more difficult. Back then I was 165 lbs, I’m now 185 lbs. Conventional doesn’t seem to feel like it does as much as when I do sumo these days so I have to alternate between the 2 with more emphasis on sumo.
I honestly thought everyone was saying sumo is cheating for the jokes, but I quickly realized some people go as far as to creating IG accounts solely to ridicule lifters that use sumo. Why can’t we agree that both count, I prefer sumo because the motion to me feels more natural, but I will say sumo is cheating if someone barely makes it past the knee caps…that shit be stupid-mostly clout lifters
I have chronic lower back pain as a result of being a dumb noob who thought he could squat more than he could handle when he first started lifting. 7 years in now and learned from my mistakes but the lower back pain is still there. I tried conventional but in every way possible it fucked up my lower back. Sumo is what saved me, been doing sumo for years now and no back pain from it whatsoever. If I had to endure constant pain on account of not being a "pussy" I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.
@@Dozen. There's no preferring. These are 2 completely different lifts.
A sumo deadlift is as much a deadlift as a decline bench is a bench press. Sure it is, but it's a variation of the core movement.
@@69nites I can do both but if I had chose one then I prefer sumo :)
@@Dozen. Yeah. I get having one that you enjoy more. But they're variations. I'm of the belief that you should train both.
I know that integrating pulling sumo into my training has improved my conventional. No one has to pick one. That's weird fitness cult shit.
Do the deadlift that protects your joints and challenges you.
That's it.
Do what you're joints can do, read the primary lit, ignore tiktok, sleep decent, eat decent, and challenge yourself.
Well said!!
Who tf eats a kiwi like that. 4:34
If people did Sumo like you, people might not be so critical, but we see people damn near doing splits during deadlifts, acting like they accomplished something.
This was hilarious and educational,
Jeff pausing to interrogate and feed him a kiwi was hilarious
This was funny af. Btw I watch like 15+ fitness influencers, but it is you who got me started. Forever grateful Jeff
Berbell
Overall I agree with your video, but your argument in 5:58 doesn't really make sense to me: "Shorter range of motion doesn't necessarily equal easier, because lifters can offset a small reduction in ROM with an increase in weight if it gives them a strength boost". Is this not the very same argument people use when calling sumo cheating? If you have to add weight to a sumo lift to match the intensity of a conventional lift, then is it not by definition easier to pull sumo?
I love how calls will Tennyson a random tall guy
''Have some carbohydrates Chris, you're looking catabolic'' - absolutely killed me! 🤣
Awesome video Jeff! Loved the mix of Casino Royal 'torture' and Nippard analysis!
I've waited so long for this video, I know it'll be hilarious and informative looool.
My personal opinion is it depends on your build and leverages. Just do what ever style suits you an maximizes your strength(or hypertrophy goals for that matter). I'm tall with long limbs and Sumo is harder and weaker for me so I pull conventional. Do what works for you, it's not that deep.
Edit: 5:51 Holy crap, Will is a lot more jacked than I realized!
Dad says sumo is cheating - cbum jr
It seems like the comfort level for sumo is more about height than weight. The reason the tall guy has a smaller difference in ROM is because during the sumo, he can't create as wide of a "triangle" with his legs while keeping his foot position comfortably within the width of the plates. If you can't get your legs wide enough, you can't clear a path for your hands to pass between your knees. You could also imagine a person with really short legs - they could do the splits while keeping their feet between the plates and their change in ROM would be -100%. It's also just a funny mental image.
Thanks Jeff, is there any data on height vs preferred stance?
My thoughts are that a taller lifter, already needs greater knee flex down to the bar in conventional, so they can’t afford the extra knee flex in a sumo starting position. A shorter lifter can get away with the extra knee flex required in sumo and take advantage of the shorter range of motion.
Another consideration for the weight vs which lift you use is not based on height but rather limb length to torso ratio.
Bear in mind over 50% of body weight comes from our torso/truck, having a longer torso likely means you have more body weight Compared to somebody of the same height but with longer legs and less torso.
Longer torso individuals (heavier) already have a greater knee flex in the conventional starting position, so the degree of extra knee flex is disadvantageous in the sumo position.
Shorter torso and longer legs, (lighter) have much less knee flex in the conventional start position and so the sumo would be more advantageous to take advantage of some extra quad use.
What about the rotator cuff shoulder muscles?
love how the videos has taken on a more comedic tone while still providing the same educational fitness value
Cbum sent me to say sumo is cheating.
I am here to let you, Jeff nippard, know that sumo is cheating.
I’m 5’7” 180lb and I like doing both sumo and conventional because how they hit differently. Sumo hits the gluts better and conventional hits the low back. I like the strength benefits of both. I don’t consider either of them cheating just like I do alternate versions of the same lift. I do wide grip and close grip lat pull because we all know they hit different.
Bleh people just like to get to competitive, in a perfect world people would think like you.😅
same i do sumo on first leg day and conventional on back day or on the second leg day
Jeff Nippard gets my respect everytime 💞
Everytime 💯💯💯
5:58 sumo allows you to lift heavier because of the range of motion. I believe this is the point of „cheating“ that the other side is mentioning.
He said HE can lift more as it's more suited for his leverages, a person who is taller and suited for conventional would not get that boost from sumo.
y'all are misinterpreting him
I can lift more by the conventional stance than by sumo. So it depends upon person to person. Do whatever you like and forget about the haters.
I’m the same. Sumo feels very awkward and for any given weight I can do more reps with conventional stance.
your quad weak!
i do connventional because i think it looks better
Recently I’ve been doing conventional on back days and sumo as my compound on leg days to really focus in on my glutes and hammies. Can confirm their both freaking hard 😂
Do you get less glute/hamstring activity when you do conventional? I've never tried sumo, only RDLs to hit my hamstrings more. Conventional always blows up my glutes.