Even before I started evaluating my Christian faith critically these writings resonated with me. They line up nicely with Christian values (the good ones, anyway). These same philosophies also influenced several Christian thinkers. I've not looked too far into it yet, but it also seems to line up nicely with Buddhism. I wonder if the comparatively small number of Stoic writings help to keep things focused. It's easier to get the "nuggets" out of the problematic, misogynistic, or theistic passages.
I agree! It does seem that many faiths around the world were influenced in their teachings by stoicism and the principles behind it, which I'm not surprised by, because many of modern day Christian teachings are based on Paul's letters and Paul was very involved in the Greek/Roman world so he definitely got influenced by the teachings of stoicism and implemented them into Christian teaching when he was writing his letters. I definitely do think stoicism is a lot more accessible to the average person if they're looking for wisdom and knowledge without having to base it on supernatural claims of religion and god. When it comes to religious texts, you really have to dig deep and ignore a lot of problematic passages in order to extract any sliver of wisdom that can be used in the modern day world. Thanks for commenting!
My only problem with stoicism is that it does not prioritize love on the same level as temperance or justice. I think Stoicism is amazing but it is missing love.
dailystoic.com/stoicism-love/ www.getstoic.com/quotes/10-stoic-quotes-on-love-relationships-and-compassion Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. - Seneca I see why it seems that way, but I believe there is a lot of good writings in stoicism that is about love and compassion for others. But even so, stoicism mostly focuses on the controlling of thoughts and isn't meant to be taken as a single philosophy for one's entire life, it can be paired with many other ways of thought in order to create a more full and encompassing life philosophy. Thanks for commenting!
"And short too the longest posthumous fame," I wonder, why is working towards goals that will leave a legacy and known effects following your death considered valuable when ones legacy in death is fleeting and meaningless? Endless useful productivity is seen as the ultimate end goal, but innate aspect of being productive makes it such that it triumphs over all other states of being? The legacy one leaves is a non factor, and I don't think there is such thing as useful productivity beyond doing what is necessary to barely survive. Working towards intelligence, strength, wisdom, unity - things I consider noble and respectable - serve no useful purpose beyond furthering ones own material or mental state beyond what is necessary. I also find issue in the stoic thought to suppress "negative" emotions rather than finding means to express those emotions in healthy manners. To completely suppress the strongest and most personal emotions one can feel seems almost as if it is stripping one of their most personal connection to humanity. It seems almost like an inferior version of CBT and DBT seen in psychology, where rather than regulate and be rational about emotions and understanding them, there is an attempt to completely suppress them. Great video btw very informative
"I wonder, why is working towards goals that will leave a legacy and known effects following your death considered valuable when ones legacy in death is fleeting and meaningless?" - That's a really good objection, I'm not someone who studies stoicism very heavily, but I think the answer to that would something like, while it's true that the material legacy we leave behind may fade over time, Stoicism suggests that the pursuit of meaningful goals is valuable because it aligns with our nature as rational and moral beings. Working towards worthy goals allows us to exercise virtues such as courage, wisdom, justice, and temperance, which are central tenets of Stoic ethics. "Endless useful productivity is seen as the ultimate end goal" - In stoicism, the ultimate end goal is to achieve eudaimonia which is basically to live in agreement with nature. This end goal will also lead to profound happiness and flourishing in one's life. Now it is said that we achieve this end goal by working towards our goals and accomplishing things in our life, but working towards our goals and accomplishing things in life are not the meaning for our lives but rather the tool that we use to pursue that meaning. "Don't think there is such thing as useful productivity beyond doing what is necessary to barely survive. Working towards intelligence, strength, wisdom, unity - things I consider noble and respectable - serve no useful purpose beyond furthering ones own material or mental state beyond what is necessary" - I agree with you that if we're talking about necessary in terms of just surviving as an organism, then we don't need anything beyond that to be productive. But, in stoicism, it is not enough to just survive but to also thrive in one's life, and by working towards the aforementioned characteristics, one can thrive in their life and also pass their knowledge and skills unto those in need which is also another teaching in stoicism. "I also find issue in the stoic thought to suppress "negative" emotions rather than finding means to express those emotions in healthy manners." - I see this as a common objection towards stoicism and I understand why it is. I apologize if I misrepresented the stoic position, but that's not entirely the stoic teaching. I think the following is a really good article on this topic: philosophybreak.com/articles/stoicism-and-emotion-dont-repress-your-feelings-reframe-them/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20modern%20use%20of,to%20accept%20and%20reframe%20them.&text=When%20we're%20in,snap%20ourselves%20out%20of%20it. Stoicism is a really complex and large philosophy, and quite honestly at times, I'm not the best communicator when it comes to sharing these topics (which I'm working on) so I may end up misrepresenting these positions. Thank you so much for commenting! I love having these discussions in the comments because I always end up learning something too!
Even before I started evaluating my Christian faith critically these writings resonated with me. They line up nicely with Christian values (the good ones, anyway). These same philosophies also influenced several Christian thinkers.
I've not looked too far into it yet, but it also seems to line up nicely with Buddhism. I wonder if the comparatively small number of Stoic writings help to keep things focused. It's easier to get the "nuggets" out of the problematic, misogynistic, or theistic passages.
I agree! It does seem that many faiths around the world were influenced in their teachings by stoicism and the principles behind it, which I'm not surprised by, because many of modern day Christian teachings are based on Paul's letters and Paul was very involved in the Greek/Roman world so he definitely got influenced by the teachings of stoicism and implemented them into Christian teaching when he was writing his letters.
I definitely do think stoicism is a lot more accessible to the average person if they're looking for wisdom and knowledge without having to base it on supernatural claims of religion and god. When it comes to religious texts, you really have to dig deep and ignore a lot of problematic passages in order to extract any sliver of wisdom that can be used in the modern day world.
Thanks for commenting!
My only problem with stoicism is that it does not prioritize love on the same level as temperance or justice. I think Stoicism is amazing but it is missing love.
It is a kind of a "suck it up" philosophy, huh? I wonder if that gap could be filled.
dailystoic.com/stoicism-love/
www.getstoic.com/quotes/10-stoic-quotes-on-love-relationships-and-compassion
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness.
- Seneca
I see why it seems that way, but I believe there is a lot of good writings in stoicism that is about love and compassion for others. But even so, stoicism mostly focuses on the controlling of thoughts and isn't meant to be taken as a single philosophy for one's entire life, it can be paired with many other ways of thought in order to create a more full and encompassing life philosophy.
Thanks for commenting!
"And short too the longest posthumous fame," I wonder, why is working towards goals that will leave a legacy and known effects following your death considered valuable when ones legacy in death is fleeting and meaningless? Endless useful productivity is seen as the ultimate end goal, but innate aspect of being productive makes it such that it triumphs over all other states of being? The legacy one leaves is a non factor, and I don't think there is such thing as useful productivity beyond doing what is necessary to barely survive. Working towards intelligence, strength, wisdom, unity - things I consider noble and respectable - serve no useful purpose beyond furthering ones own material or mental state beyond what is necessary. I also find issue in the stoic thought to suppress "negative" emotions rather than finding means to express those emotions in healthy manners. To completely suppress the strongest and most personal emotions one can feel seems almost as if it is stripping one of their most personal connection to humanity. It seems almost like an inferior version of CBT and DBT seen in psychology, where rather than regulate and be rational about emotions and understanding them, there is an attempt to completely suppress them. Great video btw very informative
"I wonder, why is working towards goals that will leave a legacy and known effects following your death considered valuable when ones legacy in death is fleeting and meaningless?" - That's a really good objection, I'm not someone who studies stoicism very heavily, but I think the answer to that would something like, while it's true that the material legacy we leave behind may fade over time, Stoicism suggests that the pursuit of meaningful goals is valuable because it aligns with our nature as rational and moral beings. Working towards worthy goals allows us to exercise virtues such as courage, wisdom, justice, and temperance, which are central tenets of Stoic ethics.
"Endless useful productivity is seen as the ultimate end goal" - In stoicism, the ultimate end goal is to achieve eudaimonia which is basically to live in agreement with nature. This end goal will also lead to profound happiness and flourishing in one's life. Now it is said that we achieve this end goal by working towards our goals and accomplishing things in our life, but working towards our goals and accomplishing things in life are not the meaning for our lives but rather the tool that we use to pursue that meaning.
"Don't think there is such thing as useful productivity beyond doing what is necessary to barely survive. Working towards intelligence, strength, wisdom, unity - things I consider noble and respectable - serve no useful purpose beyond furthering ones own material or mental state beyond what is necessary" - I agree with you that if we're talking about necessary in terms of just surviving as an organism, then we don't need anything beyond that to be productive. But, in stoicism, it is not enough to just survive but to also thrive in one's life, and by working towards the aforementioned characteristics, one can thrive in their life and also pass their knowledge and skills unto those in need which is also another teaching in stoicism.
"I also find issue in the stoic thought to suppress "negative" emotions rather than finding means to express those emotions in healthy manners." - I see this as a common objection towards stoicism and I understand why it is. I apologize if I misrepresented the stoic position, but that's not entirely the stoic teaching. I think the following is a really good article on this topic:
philosophybreak.com/articles/stoicism-and-emotion-dont-repress-your-feelings-reframe-them/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20modern%20use%20of,to%20accept%20and%20reframe%20them.&text=When%20we're%20in,snap%20ourselves%20out%20of%20it.
Stoicism is a really complex and large philosophy, and quite honestly at times, I'm not the best communicator when it comes to sharing these topics (which I'm working on) so I may end up misrepresenting these positions.
Thank you so much for commenting! I love having these discussions in the comments because I always end up learning something too!