MC2100 NOT a Good Power Supply Option for Shop Tools!
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- I have said in a lot of my videos that I prefer a quality SCR voltage controller with bridge rectifier as a way to power a treadmill motor over the MC-2100. But with each video I kept getting comments on how the MC-2100 was a "good option". Then when I did the power supply shootout and subsequent tests on the MC-2100 using the tach input I began to think my original assessment was inaccurate. To know for sure I installed an MC-2100 on my bandsaw, after using the bandsaw I am NOT happy with the results. If you want to try it anyway here are the parts
MC2100:
PWM signal generator for the MC 2100 amzn.to/3z3ivu3
20 Amp circuit breaker amzn.to/3ufQDRh
OR
15 Amp circuit breaker amzn.to/3FgoQGP
Emergency stop switch amzn.to/43mgveT
3PDT direction switch amzn.to/3ZShNLG
OR
DPDT center of switch amzn.to/46hjbdM
Toroid Core for AC inductor/choke amzn.to/3QTk5Zs
Inclosuers and inclosure parts:
8” X 6” X 4” hinged box amzn.to/3jPndaR
8” X 10” X 4” Power supply box amzn.to/3HEHeun
12” x 12” x 4” Large component box amzn.to/3Imerv6
7.9” x 4.7” x 2.95” Large plastic box amzn.to/3nQEylT
6.22” x 3.54” x 2.36” Medium plastic box (the one I put all the parts in) amzn.to/40JB9nn
Cable Gland amzn.to/3VZNrWb
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I love your videos, and respect your knowledge, i believe a more dialed in gear ratio to make better use of the higher rpms is key. torque is cool, but irrelevant without some inertia (at working speeds). with lathes/saws that have been converted, we must also keep in mind that we control the motors load by "feeding" material/cutter into the saw/material. i tried 3 tin can motors before finding my baldor 3hp, all of which were powering a 10x36 rockwell lathe via the same mc2100lt. i've probably stalled it 1000 times by now before setting on a gear ratio that suite's my machine. i may just be lucky, or it could be the re-freshened thermal paste and 40mm blower on the heatsink. it goes into a limp mode occasionally, but a power cycle fixes that. again I'm not saying your wrong, but gearing the motors max rpm to match the machines max rated rpm is your best bet usually.
Thank you for your comment, I agree with everything you said except "torque is cool, but irrelevant without some inertia " You are completely correct that for best results you want to gear the motor to max motor RPMs but unless using a massive flywheel its not about inertia but rather torque. If you have a motor that had 2 foot pounds of torque and a max RPM of 4500 and your application only needs 1500 RPM, if possible you should gear it at 3:1. Yes there would be a slight benefit to inertia but the bigger advantage is that gearing has converted RPMs into torque and the output has gone from 2 foot pounds to 6 foot pounds. On my lathe and mill I have the motors setup with gear ratios to maximize motor RPMs and they work extremely well. On the band saw there is not room to "correctly" gear the motor to the saw. Sadly I am leaving 1/2 to 1/3 the motors capability on the table. When I stuck the blade it wasn't about feed, I was cutting something round and it spun in my hand and completely froze the blade. In my case parts failed in the MC2100 no limp mode. Again I appreciate your comments and agree proper gear ratio is key.
Why? Because the MC-60 features feedback loops etc on the board itself, in order to stabilize and maintain speed under load, It does not use feedback from a tach etc to do this.
The Mc2100 does use it when on the TM, due to the belt or motor opto sensor sent directly up to the console processor via the main board, but the main board does not see the tach directly on some versions,
I am thinking of reprogramming a PicMicro to replace the one on board and include these features. I already built a small Picmicro one for the 20hz PWM with stop start P.B.
The tach input goes directly into the MC2100 board and works well to help maintain speed... the MC2100 is just a terrible power supply 😂😂😂
You mean because it has a bridge rectifier? The SCR after the bridge is just used to ramp up the DC.
no a bridge rectifier converts AC to DC and nothing to do with the tach input on the MC2100. Im saying I used the tach input on the MC2100 and it helped regulate speed untill the board fried.
Yeah, I fried my MC2100 messing around with the DPDT switch for reverse. Accidentally switched froward to reverse and the shop braker tripped and when I tried to restart the MC2100 I got the exact same result as you. Looks like the MOSFET shorted. I ordered a part, and I will replace it when it comes in to see if that will fix the power supply. The main reason I want to try this board is the very slow speed I can get. I want to be able to weld a shaft in the lathe with the spindle turning. But also like you I'm starting to dislike this fragile power supply. Seems to be a common issue with treadmills when the running belt sticks or is not lubed well. I wonder if a fuse in line with the motor + wire would make a difference. I'm trying to have a video of all this nonsense uploaded soon. Hope you get well soon. Thanks for the video.
You need a flyback diode.😊
That would not have eliminated the issue. Flyback diodes dissipate current created from a free spinning motor. In his case the board was over loaded because of reversing directions, in effect stalling the motor. A flyback diode would have done nothing in that case.
I have heard of others frying these board with a forward and reverse switch. This is the second one I have fried. The first one failed testing on the bench when I had it cranked up to a high RPM, I turned it off at the PWM and then after it came to a stop I turned it back on. The sudden draw at near max RPM fried the board in the same way where it tries to go to full speed when you first turn it on then shuts off. If you want to be able to go a very slow speeds you should look into a Variac. Of all the power supplies I tested this one had the slowest minimum speed ruclips.net/video/oSZYEUm1SuY/видео.html
Thanks for the comment here and sorry see that your and his board got friend. It helps others not to make the error sharing. I wad just asking questions around about reverse option because that's a really nice option to have for tapping and reverse drill bits. I was about to try what you did last night but got tired and slept it in. I just got a treadmill that has a good motor but the mc-2100 w rev 5 board turns on with a solid led but doesn't seem to turn the motor after user input. I wanted to put these components on my small drill press. I am happy his videos are recent and is doing stuff is what I am working nowadays. Alot of documents about these stuff. I wonder the board would be good for like a skateboard but again it's a ac to DC unit so idk.
@@dazecars I think you're mistaken about what a flyback diode, or snubber circuit does. Have you ever occasionally noticed a spark when a relay is turned on? The spark is usually hundreds or even thousands of volts--enough to pass through an air gap. The reason it occurs is simple. Inside the relay, there's a coil that when activated creates a magnetic field around itself which either closes or opens its electrical contacts. When the relay turns off, the magnetic field changes, or collapses to zero. It goes from being a electromagnet magnet to a generator, creating current in the opposite direction which can be high enough to spark.
Your DC motor is nothing more than a big ass coil. When it suddenly stalls, it has enough back current enough to kill the MOSFET in its path. Why doesn't the fuse trip? This happens too fast for most fuses. A fuse needs enough time to heat up and break. Back current can be generated in milliseconds.
Why doesn't the controller board have a flyback diode? Due to wire resistance and other factors, it's best to put the flyback diode as close as possible to the source, which is the motor. It probably doesn't make sense to have one since it could cause the motor to kick suddenly in the opposite direction which can injure the treadmill user.
If none of this makes sense, at least watch this video it explains better than I:
ruclips.net/video/haUWO7BGYTE/видео.html
Thanks for the video. Last night I just bought a variac that you recommended in the other videos info link. Hope it'll do me good for drill press hopefully I can figure out adding reverse option to it. I did bought the other parts for the mc-2100, incase I can figure out if it's good or if I can repair/modify/or even upgrade the board.
I have a thought about your board dying. Not a electrical genius here but what if those big caps or mofest had failed and could be swapped out for a newer one and or a better one to fix that.
I also tied testing my treadmill motor with a Milwaukee m18 battery pack it ran with its 20v supply. When i did idea popped. Wouldn't it be the same or worst using several power tools batteries in series, like the more there is more rpm.. or adding parallel more torque. Again I'm no electrical savvy here, just sharing thoughts.
assuming the batteries have adiquite amperage putting them in parallel will not add any extra torque. Changing the voltage however is exactly what we are doing with the power supply to change speed.
@@dazecars you are right, I don't know why I said it like that. But what was in mind when commenting about batteries was they make adapters that like is having them on tool but on whatever it can be mounted to let's say we line 4 mounts up on a fixed board. 20 volts each mount would be applied from battery so if I have all of them mounted with the same style battery in series 80 volts so it were to drive the motor I would imagine that would be running fast rpm whatever 80 volts give. If I wanted it go half the speed I go take off 2 battery and leave two. But again I might never do this, I remembered how much the Milwaukee 12ah m18 battery was that I bought. Thanks for replying anyways have a good day.
@@nicholasderbin7667 something worth noting is that LiOn batteries for power tools are made ti operate within a certain voltage. Meaning you need to be able to maintain between a 3.2v and 4.2v charge for each individual cell to keep the battery useable. Any time you have and under voltage or over voltage condition, it significantly reduces the life of the cell/battery. So use them with a voltage protection board to shut them off or simply at your own risk
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Did you ever make the video about bypassing the soft start? I'm trying to turn a coffee roaster drum with this motor and I have the MC2100 (it already has a ferrite inductance ring, and the transformer). I think the PWM will be a great option for me.
yep there is a video on that ruclips.net/video/CrKpH_BrqVA/видео.html
This was interesting, and killed my direction with the mc2100. I'm glad to move on early, but I'm still confused on the choke in the SCR circuit. I understand the amps and volts. I think Hz is constant at 60, but I don't understand how to size the inductance rating. It sounds like too little and the choke is irrelevant while too much and I'm overpaying. How can we determine the right range? I'm thinking I'm just going to buy this one part new so I may as well get it right. Thank you for putting all of this out there!
The choke in most of my videos is part number 130993. Instead of getting one new I would get a used one. A lot of treadmills come with a choke. Go to eBay and search “treadmill motor choke” BUT know that most people on eBay don’t know what they have and the word transformer will also appear in most listings. Problem is a choke and a transformer look almost identical so some listings are for transformers and some are fore chokes because the sellers think they are interchangeable. They are not. They would only be interchangeable if you modify a transformer to work as a choke. (see my DIY choke video) To tell the difference count the wires. A choke will only have 2, a transformer will have 3 or more. Generl rule of thumb for sizing a choke is the bigger they are the better they work, also the coil needs to be at least 16 awg. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
I have been getting components together. Do you have a link where to get a small little circuit breaker you have used? I enjoy your videos Thanks
Let me know if you need anything else
20 Amp circuit breaker amzn.to/3ufQDRh
15 Amp circuit breaker amzn.to/3FgoQGP
Do your hands (having no body), ever wander off, doing things on their own? Do your feet keep them in line?
Sometimes
What nobody seems to realize is these cheap treadmills are made to be used by just one person, walking, only a few times a week, for 3-5 years TOPS. If you’re lucky to have it last that long with consistent use, you’re extremely lucky… but the reality is that these residential treadmills aren’t designed for consistent use. Fact is 3 of 4 people that buy a treadmill will literally NEVER use it a single time EVER. Similar statistic is true for gym memberships(I ran multiple gyms for 8 years). Needless to say, these treadmill manufacturers know this fact and they build them accordingly for their highest return(typically to break after 3 yrs, once warranty expires)
If you want reliable components for shop tools, then you need to source components from a commercial grade treadmill. These are made to be used all day, everyday, 365. The difference between a commercial grade treadmill and a residential unit is astronomical.
I couldn't agree more. I have scrapped 18 treadmills and half have been cheap. Easiest way to tell the difference at a glance in motor size. The ones with a 4" diameter motor are cheap. Still lots of good usable parts there for various projects but I would never put those parts on a mill or lathe. The bigger motor treadmills (5" or bigger) are of much better quality with a ton of different variations in quality from the expensive home unit to the commercial unit.
Do you still have that dead MC2100? I've got a different variant of it I've been trying to repair for my treadmill and it might be useful to start part swapping between the two since a new MC2100 these days costs more than I paid for the treadmill itself.
there are two switching transistors that typically go bad the mosfet on the dc side and another one on the AC side. if it is not one of those or the capacitor then it is the main chip and is not repairable.
@@dazecars The problem for my board is that the 12V rail is not putting out enough power to drive the display. I can work around it by giving the display 12V externally and then turning the control board on and it works just fine. Part of it was that I've been dragging my feet on making a schematic of the DC side since no one seems to have made one for it already.
@@NearEDGE I would check the DC side capacitor (smaller capacitor rear the pin outs) as a possible source of the problem. The basic components of the 12v side are the transformer stepping 120V AC down to 2 legs of 8 V AC which are wired together for 16 V AC so if one leg has an issue that might be part of the problem. Then it goes to two diodes mounted back to back (looks kind of like two larger transistors mounted back to back) That converts the AC to DC. From there it goes to the capacitor to smooth the power out. There are other components but those are the main ones to look at.
Hi, I have a question. Why do you use a 10,000 watt 75 amp SCR voltage regulator and not a 2,000 or 4,000 watt ? A 2.25 hp dc treadmill motor will use 1850 watts at 27 amps. Is it just being over safe ? Was just wondering. Seems like a 4,000 watt would work just as well. Thank you.
Max watt rating is simply that max it is for small bursts of max amp draw. Continuous use is typically about half of max so 5000 watts. My biggest motors are in the 3000 watt range so the smaller 4000 watt units were out. If I was running a smaller motor like the one you provided the specs for a 4000 watt unit would work BUT the components are smaller and less robust and I wanted something that would survive the punishment it was going to see in my shop. It is no different than the situation with the 50 amp 1000V rectifier that a lot of people are using because you can get a 5 pack for $10. (same one I use on the bench for some of my videos because of convenience about 1" by 1") but on my machines I use a much bigger rectifier. I started with the smaller one everyone else was using and I burned out several of them on my machines. After I upgraded to the 100 amp 1500 volt rectifier I have not been able to burn one out. It is much more robust and will last longer because it is not operating anywhere near max. If you are going to use what ever you are putting the treadmill motor on a lot you want components that will last.
If the DC treadmill motor was one that you commonly see rated for 80vdc (85vdc?) you could always put one of these inline with the motor power leads:
Blue Sea Systems 7220 Ac / Dc Single Pole Magnetic World Circuit Breaker 30 Amp
They are rated for 80vdc and while I may not know the correct amperage rating needed to be used for prolonged working load conditions, they are manufactured in varying amperage ratings all costing about the same $20.
Normally a treadmill motor will experience around 10A DC at low speed when loaded by a 240lb person. This number can be higher at 15-20amp depending on the tension and health of the belt. So I’m just guessing that the 30amp version might be sufficient to handle a prolonged working load at higher rpm but still be sufficient to trip in a motor stall scenario.
Originally I had thought you could use those automotive/marine 32vdc resettable fuses, however after doing enough researching found that if the fuse isn’t sufficiently rated for the DC voltage, it may not have a sufficient arc gap to suddenly terminate the flow so the voltage may just end up arcing across the gap rendering the fuse ineffective.
It still likely would not save the MC2100. Most fuses have a delay and the board will fry before the fuse. In fact I heard from another viewer that had put a fuse in line with his motor. He accidentally went from forward to reverse without letting the motor come to a stop and it killed his MC2100. The fuse was even undersized making it more prone to blow but it didn't matter. When it comes to power supplies the 2100 is "made of glass"
I don't like the 2100 either because there's too much unused circuitry and it looks as if there's not much in way of supplying ample power when the motor needs it. However, I am using 1 in my bench top drill press, and because there's a belt that isn't taught enough, when a bit gets stuck, the motor continues to spin in the belt which buys me enough time to free the bit or press the yellow button to stop. I still don't like it though, but I already installed it before stumbling onto your videos.
I am sure having the slippage makes all the difference in the world. Had the drive belt on the bandsaw been looser my MC2100 probably would have survived the stuck blade.
It looks like you need snubber or flyback diode. There's a high reverse current generated when the motor suddenly stops.
I understand the purpose of a flyback diode but that is not the problem here. The current you speak of is not generated from a sudden stop it it is from a free spinning motor acting as a generator. In other words you turn the motor off but inertia allows the motor to continue spinning. A flyback diode bleeds off that power. With a sudden stop there is no current because there is no motion to create power. The board failed because of the stalled motor drew more amps than the components on the board could handle.
@@dazecars First, a flyback diode doesn't "dissipate" current, it's more like a check valve and prevents current backflow. Second, current IS generated when the motor suddenly stops. The magnetic field in the motor's coil collapses and the energy has to go somewhere. Since the change is instantaneous or almost instantaneous, it results in a very high current in the opposite direction.
@@bobweiram6321 Sorry to say but you are misapplying the concepts of a transformer to a DC motor and it does not work that way. A transformer works by means of a collapsing magnetic field, but it has TWO coils (or a single coil in the case of a Variac but that is set up totally different and does not even remotely apply to this situation). It is the differential between the number of wraps of these two coils that steps voltage up or down. If you generate a magnetic field in a coil with ten wraps and it collapses next to a coil with 100 wraps voltage will be stepped up, create the field in the 100 wrap coil, when the magnetic field collapses in to the 10 wrap coil voltage will drop. Two ten wrap coils will result in an identical voltage being induced into the secondary coil as was applied to the first coil (small loss for efficiency and resistance). Why am I educating you on transformers? Because it is this concept you are incorrectly applying to a DC motor coil. A magnetic field collapsing in a single coil doesn't magically create a massive voltage spike. In the case of a DC motor there is no second coil for the field to collapse into. Even if your collapsing magnetic field concept was correct (which it is not) you would never get more more voltage than was originally applied because there is no coil differential. If you don't believe me set up a motor and hook it to a DPDT switch (on) (on) with no center off. connect the motor to the middle terminals, power supply to one set of outer terminals and a meter to the other set of outer terminals set to read DC volts. Turn the motor on and throw the switch you will initially see voltage similar to what was powering the motor, no massive spike and as the motor speed drops the voltage will drop. And don't say it happens in between on and on if it were able to damage the board it would register on the meter. When using a diode the voltage is “dissipated” by completing the circuit. That is WHY a diode is used as a flyback. Diodes only allow electricity to flow one direction, your analogy of a check valve is crude but somewhat accurate. When power is applied in one direction to rotate the motor it hits the diode and is not aloud to pass, but when the motor is free spinning the voltage polarity is reversed applying current the other direction as the motor becomes a generator and the diode completes the circuit dissipating the charge and helping bring the motor come to a stop. This works well on small motors because the watts produced are minimal but in the case of a treadmill motor there are a lot of watts being produced. Suddenly shorting the motor out when it is acting as a generator is hard on the internals of the motor. Flyback diodes are used for smaller motors. I use them all the time when wiring automotive electric fans to help prolong the life of the contacts inside the power relay, but they will do nothing good in this situation. Further more if it was a simple as adding a $.05 diode to protect the 2100 don’t you think the manufacture would have done so? It could have easily been added to the motor. And your theory that it could "kick suddenly in the wrong direction" is also completely wrong. The motor is a generator and the diode simply completes the circuit. Manufactures don't add them because one it would not protect the board as you are claiming and two it would shorten the life of the motor. Watch my second video on breaking resistors and you will see what happens inside a free spinning treadmill motor when the leads are shorted together which is exactly what the diode would be doing. My board failed because the motor stalled drawing more amps than the MOSFET could handle, not because of a lack of a flyback diode. I hope this helped clear up your misconception of magnetic coil induction, what a flyback diode actually does, when it should be used and why it would not help in this situation.
So should be fine then for belt grinders and sanders and the like yea?
Could go either way. Most belt grinder builds I have seen people are direct driving the belt with the motor. This eliminates any gear reduction and increased torque afforded by said gear reduction. Less torque means its easier to stall the motor sooooo as long as you are carful it should work ok but would still not be my first choice.
Seems to me that the MC2100 was designed to work with treadmills and not power tools. This is why your SCR design is superior for running shop tools.
But you already know that Daze. I’m just showing you how learned I be.
The both have merit but yes the SCR is more utilitarian.
Dead to me……Dead to me….Dead to me……..
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Always put wax on you band saw blade.
good tip
Dead to me. Ouch!
had to be done
Thanks Daze!!
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