Collectible Games - I: How Can We Make Good CCGs? - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- What are the benefits of collectible monetization? How can it be abused?
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(Original air date: November 6, 2013)
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He's just smiling and talking about a bright future. I wonder if they even realized the light was an approaching mushroom cloud
"Rage of Bahamut is not a good game"
THANK YOU!!! Finally I hear someone say it! Yes this is soo true!!!
It is another one of those games that looks amazing but has NO substance to it. People put so much focus on the aesthetics and then think they are done, then they just slap together some boring gameplay. Boo.
@@OthelloBoulevard It's the exact opposite of what game development is supposed to be.
The idea of being able to use low-level items for something useful is one of the main reasons the loot dropping in Team Fortress 2 is so engaging. You might not need another sammich, but you could always use some scrap metal
ME WANT SANDVICH!
You're probably the only channel that gets me to watch the outro of every video ^^ Great music you got there!
This has been by far my favorite closing credits song. Please more of this. Also I have matpat from game theory to thank for my discovery of you guys. Thanks for making consistently intriguing videos
Valve has been watching these I swear. The resemblance to the Dota 2 chests is uncanny. "Oh, i'm just gonna buy a Timbersaw set because I only play Timbersaw." "hmm, the chest I just got contains a Tusk set. Eh, it looks really nice, I might give him a try I guess."
And then you recycle items you don't want to get new items. Yep, pretty on point!
Of course those men in suits would want to point to short-term solutions that get them quick money. Their intent is to jump into the business, make a killing destroying it, and move on to another business. They are the white-collar equivalent to Chinese maritime poachers.
Something that I wonder got brought up in the comments or the second part (I haven't seen that yet) is Final Fantasy: All the Bravest. It has a randomized reward system much as described in this video, but it was a bomb and a critical failure that, while not on the scale of Sonic 2006, was comparably negative in proportion to its size.
Thank you for making this video! This has opened new doors to my perspective on games. You guys are awesome :0
The O-Queso part made me laugh for much longer than it should have.
I think Cygames has learned and grown a lot since Rage of Bahamut. Shadowverse (their newest CCG) is incredibly generous and easy to get into as a F2P player, it's what drew me in and has kept me playing.
i don't know how well this translates to physical ccg's, i have in the past found ways to exploit the randomness of given booster set. because every box had a given number of rares, super rares, etc and boxes tended to be packed in a certain way for some unknown reason, i could stroll into my local card shop, say i want some of a set, if the box wasn't brand new i'd hold off until they were forced to open a new one, then id pick from only the right side and at least 8 packs deep in the stack. i would pull the rarest cards in the set consistently because people are idiots and had boxes packed the same way every time, i eventually told the shop i was doing it so they knew to mix the packs a bit lest they upset newer players looking for some rare cards that i hadn't already sniped by knowing the packaging, but there is always people who can exploit what seems random as long as they know the system
I totally don't buy into tho- *has three collectible games on phone*
1:15 i understood dev speak better than human speak... is that a good thing?
+josh baughman (enderlordmc) no... but i have the same problem
+josh baughman (enderlordmc) yeah, its fine so long as you have someone to translate when needed.
It’s not dev speak
Devs are people too.
Yes but actually no.
You finally touched on the idea that you could solve inflation by making the money useful in other ways, such as making other items. Do more on it
I feel that this episode correlates very well with the one about MMORPGs, and how the developers use slim chances of dropping an awesome item, instead of dropping the "ingredients" so you can craft the item you want, since everything that is left to chance is engaging. (Btw, sorry I forgot which episode it is).
I believe that is the J.C. Penney's Effect.
rustler_of_jimmies yeah, I do believe it is. They said the same thing in the next episode though.
thanks for posting these videos! they are really enlightening and entertaining and I will remember these if I ever start working with video games. thanks again, you guys are heroes!
Sooo many commons... I had a friend literally bring up the notion of burning them. I had to dissuade them, and promptly be annoyed by their existence. Thank god for casual commons drafts. I finally get to use stuff like Daggerdrome Imp and kick ass with it.
Is this the video that inspired the Lootbox system in games? It's very convincing.
2:35 "100% of your audience are now customers for 100% of what you have to sell"
Personally, when I play MTG I actually do the opposite. I play casual, and enjoy creatively gaining an advantage more than having one. I never buy rares or mythics unless I have some specific strategy that makes them better than they should be from the designed use. This means that I can build custom decks without costing huge sums, am safe from the trap of using an overpowered card in place of a well-placed card, and have the power level of my decks automatically reduced, which is useful because most of my decks would be way to powerful to play against my buddies. Also, commons actually do include some pretty overpowered cards even without cleverness required to use them.
Duel Links does the "better the more you buy" thing really well. Your odds for rare stuff goes up as you buy packs
Seems exploitative from the very onset. You either pay more than you would have to get the full game if you want the full game or you pay more than you would have to get certain parts of a game if you only want those parts.
A collectable game is a game that has:
1- A variant cool cover (but not overtly better than the original, otherwise it will generate hate).
2- A fully coloured manual inside the game's protective case.
3- A cloth map (If RPG, or if needed for the action adventure).
4- An Art Book.. RICH ART BOOK!
5- A big nice poster. (Optional).
6- Some cool postcards with unique art. (Optional).
7- An Action Figure or Figurine of the main hero.. (Optional).
8- Some cool stickers.. (Optional).
That's all!!!
No key-chains.. no watches.. no necklaces.. no rings.. no calenders.. no wearables of ANY sorts (Iron-on T-Shirt badge crap, T-Shirts, Caps, boxers or even Bags.. ).
Oh yes, and no DLCs, extra skins.. NOTHING DIGITAL!
Digital crap must be free, or possible to buy from the stores..
Digital "Items" must not be part of the collectable experience..
ANYTHING that CANNOT BE PASSED to the next person when the "Collectable" item is sold must not be included!
The next buyer other wise has the option to re-buy the digital crap at any time he/she likes..
(I am thinking of the old times of the SEGA Genesis and the Nintendo SNES era).
Anywho, the game industry can shove the current games up their asses, starting with Minecraft, and all the way to the latest MMO.. :^)
Greeting from Dubai.
Sounds like a mixup of a collectable game (a game about collectable things) and a collector's edition of a game (a copy of a game targeted at collectors of games).
You guys realize part two is already out, right?
For the Pokemon TCG, you can't even get basic energy cards from boosters. You can only get them from the starter decks which focus around 2 types. This means you need to buy at least 6 starter decks for all your energy cards, thus getting people to buy more of the product. This also makes it so you get more variety in the packs. The packs, then, can have special energy cards that gives bonuses, like reduced retreat cost, to the pokemon they're put on, but those cards are rare/uncommon.
It's interesting that both the reasons for CCG monetization mentioned in this video are now probably the driving forces behind the lootbox-oriented design of non-CCG multiplayer (and even singleplayer) games today. How things can change in a few years.
The thing with a game like Magic is that opening packs becomes part of a game unto itself through limited formats like Draft. Even if you open nothing that you will use in constructed play and are just going to throw the commons away, you still got value from playing with them temporarily. Ideally, digital CCGs should provide something like this in addition to being able to turn excess cards in for the ones you want.
In a digital collectable game you can also manipulate the randomizer, so for example the pack can be almost random - with the excaption that it has to include at last one card the palyer doesn't already have
Many of the points raised by this video are the reasons I quit buying Magic cards. Collectible games are sold on the premise that plyers will buy the mountain in order to get the molehill.
Oh god, he mentioned Rucks. And Bastion. I've already resolved to watch this entire series, but now even more so.
This was an excellent video, and I feel that anyone into collectable gaming should watch it. Lots of great points very clearly explained.
hey hey HEY I'll buy the Rucks voice pack as many times as I like, thank you very much. Now leave me to wallow in his smooth buttery voice.
Goddamned Chimney Imps!
I really enjoyed that O-queso joke. More than anyone ever should.
I'm not really much into the whole card game collectible genre, but I like the appeal of it which is simple gambling. Too bad not too many video games use this kind of strategy to it's fullest potential. The one that does come to mind when thinking about this is Borderlands, you basically only play it to get new items and to see what effect it has on your environment of stored items and opponents. I'm a console gamer and I have this gut feeling that the PC games do apply this element more, so yeah, can't speak for that part...
In paper card games, such as MTG, you can still trade cards away for cards you want.
et's compare the good with the bad on this Google+ update shall we?
The Good:
1. Being able to edit comments, in case of glaring typos
2. Being able to post lengthy opinions without multiple comments
3. Organizing replies to an easier and less confusing system
4. Making it easy to share things for those who actually use Google+
The Bad
1. Being forced to use a Service most of us have no intention of using
2. Google trying to force us to use our real names
3. Not being able to comment for a while, even with Google+ linked (luckily resolved for me but not others)
4. Massive loss of information for users, like subscriptions
5. Being notified for every like a comment of mine gets, on all my thousands of comments that I'm sure to post in the nest few weeks
6. Being notified when someone replies to a comment I replied to, even when it has nothing to do with me, filling my Bell with comments I couldn't care less about.
7. ASCII Penii everywhere
8. Links to viruses that can destroy computers with one curious click, especially bad to those who can't afford to replace their computer
9. Links to Screamers, Seizure Sites, Porn, and more for all out children to enjoy
10. These comments can be disguised as "Expand this comment" making avoiding them difficult to impossible, so this is sure to cause multiple Seizures and Destory Countless Hard Drives
11. Screen filling comments of utter pointlessness
12. People can now edit their comments and change the context of an argument to make you look like an asshole
13. Having to click "Allow" on my Noscript everytime I click the bell window no matter how many times I allow it
14. Disliking a comment does not show any dislikes so you can't dislike a comment effectively
15. Impersonation of Username and Avatar
16. Some people can't reply to comments
17. Top (usually first) comments getting all priority and attention and leaving newer comments mostly ignored unless people click the option themselves every video
18. The Ultimate Evil itself infecting RUclips, Fucking Hashtags, themselves worth multiple points
19. Hashtags
20. Hashtags
21. Hashtags
22. #FuckingHashtags
23. Clean and easy to use Inbox replaces by laggy, glitchy and convoluted Bell
24. Once again never asking for user opinion
25. And finally, abusing the fact that most of our favorite content providers are on RUclips and can't risk losing their income switching to someplace else, forcing us to stay here and take the Butt Rape Google is handing us.
So tell us, do we have a right to complain?
Atleast in Magic most of the commons you get in a pack are integral to a deck's strategy. Especially in Zendikar or Ravnica.
TF2 is a prime example of this done right. you have a chance of getting rare hat, but if you dont, you have a component to create a hat.
2:54 "the Rucks Voice Pack" DOES THIS EXIST?
GIVE THIS TO ME!
Dota 2. But that's the narrator.
That is amazing!
Wait, this first video was an explanation on how collectable games can work and NOT be exploitable?
Jeez, I look forward to seeing whet the guys at Extra Credits consider to be negative points. My opinion throughout this video was just how horrible the whole collectable system seems to me,
THAT. When your second best argument for a system is "it allows you to sell multiple times the same thing to the same people even though they don't really need them, without them noticing", it kinda looks like the system is a great... well, way to scam the consumers ?
Olivier Faure
Yes, exactly. There is a REASON someone always brings up Rage of Bahamut. These producers COULDN'T CARE LESS if it is a good game. All they want is an effective and cheap Skinner box designed to sap as much money from customers as possible. The whole idea is to make a game worth maybe $9.99 and sell it to vulnerable people for $1000+. And here Extra Credits is saying 'this is great because you can sell people a lot of stuff they don't want.' Really? I thought these guys were artists. For shame.
Well,they're not saying that it's great for players, only for developers. I mean, they depict the system accurately, except I wish they had a more consumer-centered POV.
And I don't think this is out of character for extra credits : they already had this "Here is how to make money making good games, and here is how to make money, period"
I don't think it's a shame, it's just factual. But again, they sure should think a bit more about the consumer's interests.
Yes. It's also factual that crappy sell-out-the-franchise games make a lot of money. "Purchase an development studio that is in trouble, then sell out on the reputation by investing in clever marketing. Skimp on the game because people will rush to buy based on previous reputation! (This is great for developers!)" Hell, a Ponzi scheme makes lots of money. Is that what this channel is about?
Ah man! I know how that feels to have a bunch of cards you can't exactly use for your Magic deck. I do what my friend always does, create multiple decks to find use out of the cards you don't need for your primary deck! What if Online TCG games were to do this? Allow you to make multiple decks
They'd never allow that, and the rare ones that do are either indie or demand you pay for those extra decks.
I've never even heard of Rage of Bahamut... It sounds dumb and gross.
One thing that MTG does well is essentially allow you to start for little to no cash. Any serious player will give great swaths of cards to a new player for free, because that stack of commons is worthless.
I think Puzzle and Dragons is a fantastic example of the "feed your unwanted items to your more useful items to power them up."
I think Axis&Allies miniatures would be a better collectable game model than a lot of others. While you could (and still can if you look hard enough) buy them individually, you would get a bonus for having many of the same unit. It would even be considered a good thing to have........10 Screaming Eagles figures since you could call them in at anytime, anywhere on the map. And some figures cost more than others and accidentally grabbing an unwanted piece could end up being more of a positive than a negative.
Warframe is a great example of a collectible game that has sidelined this model for one of player choice. You choose what you want to buy, what you want to level up, and what you want to keep, with no randomness involved. Of course, it does run into issues mentioned of only having a fraction of your audience interested in another fraction of the total volume of collectables. Of course, with collectable slots costing real world money, only the statistical outliers will have room for everything, and everything maxed.
But the game has managed to keep fresh for me because of the amount of development that has gone into creating new experiences for players. Warframe really does seem to be in eternal beta, but I see that as somewhat of a good thing when I see how much it has improved technically, aesthetically, and even gameplay-wise with Damage 2.0 and now alerts that are capped to a certain power level.
Player: I really like the Wizard and I think the mechanics for the ranger are really bad
Dev: The bow is Purple
Player: Take my money
So basically TF2 crates.
This creates a different curve, but you could also have it so you just can't get something you already have.
Ofcourse the good thing about selling them is that you can control how many new ones they can buy for the ones they already had and thus have more control over the curve.
There's also the randomness in how many you get that you already had, basically it's just a less extreme way of making sure people get new stuff with every pack. You could take it the other way and have cards you already had sellable for more cards actually, but that'd be silly I think lol
Played Rage of Bahamut for a while, but I never spent any money on it. I saw it as an interesting take on skinner box games like Clash of Clans, and I found it to be pretty fun
From now on I think I'm always going to picture the phrase "okay, so.." as "oh queso". Thanks Extra Credits! :D
I'm a gamer, not a designer, and THIS shit is why I only play games with one flat price. No micro chargers, no DLC, just charge me what the game is worth, then leave me alone and stop badgering me for more money! I wanted some new games, so instead of buying a wii u, ps4 or xbox1, I went on amazon, bought a gamecube and a couple of used games.
Smart. Im a big time gamer. And every time i see what kind of shit there is on a digital store front on Lets say... A ps4, i just get sad.
Tf2 covers this well. Almost within perfection, the crate and key system
ur videos should be taught in game development courses ,,, if I ever give one in the future i'll try to include ur videos as a reference to my audience :D ,, awesome channel (p.s. I watch a lot of ur videos but i'm not a usual commentator ;p )
oh man chimney imps reference
Got me too. Tough to say if it's Chimney Imps or Dementia Bat that's worse, though.
Wooo! 3 Videos in 1 day!
Tekken Card Tournament is one of the best collectible card games I've ever played! XD
1:08
My favorite part is the 'lets try that again in human speak'
xd
Man, I miss retro extra credits
Doing silhouettes of your characters makes them look like they're all in tutus and have no arms (see 2:35). Just thought it was worth mentioning.
Hearthstone goes around this with the Arena,Disenchanting and crafting.
I love how Dan gets so excited over "YAY WE CAN SELL THE PLAYER STUFF THEY DONT WANT!" I mean isn't that as much of a problem as it is a boon? As a player sure there's going to be ok items that aren't to my preference that I'll find use for, but if I repeatedly work on dailies to buy boosters once a week and constantly get garbage I'm likely going to quit. You need a way in order to steer your collection towards what you want and simply grinding dust in hearthstone while effective for the hardcore community trying to fill in the last few spots of their collection is bad for casual players. Unless you're grinding out every single quest and going for more rewards you're not going to get the dust you need for a specific card for a while. Hell its about the rate you get a random hat out of scrap in TF2 and the weapons you're guaranteed as a droplist daily are much more valuable individually than most cards you'd get out of a booster.
+Jeremy West just try to make an effort to avoid exploitative games like that, I suppose thats the best we can do.
Only letting players buy random packs is the worst thing ever.
They're flat out saying: "Yes, we know very well that you guys don't want everything we sell, but dammit, we want to sell it to you anyway, so we'll lock the stuff you want away behind stuff you couldn't care less about."
That's like that skinner box used to its' most awful degree in RPG questing. It stinks and it should go away immediately.
Which could possibly be fixed in the digital realm by having packs that are more expensive but only give you things you don't have. Alternatively, making different packs for different levels of power.
Conrad Hochstrasser a keyword in your (academic)argument being "more expensive" imagine going to a restaurant and being told that if you pay them up front you will get food, what food you get will be a mystery, but if you want to narrow the possibilities down you can pay us even more money. then you end up with a bowl of cabbage soup and some chips.
sonicloyalfan The expensiveness was just a placeholder. I don't know what you would actually put there, but still.
sonicloyalfan I feel like maybe you're missing the point. Most of these games have multiple styles you can play and the designer makes those items to open the game to many possibilities, is many ways the artists and designers make multiple products for one game with no idea if it will be a wanted item or not. No matter if you arbitrarily decide you want an item they still need to get paid for work they already did and make at least enough revenue to go home and either make an expansion on the game or a new game.
What you're saying is because you decide you only wanted a few cards they should make all the other options available to you and never get paid for it. You're implying you will only go to a buffet and it can only have a few items because you won't pay for anything else. A restaurant by contrast doesn't make a meal until you order it so your analogy is flawed.
my analogy was not men't to be taken literally.
I'm all for the artists getting paid. My thinking is that if you make something and people like it you make money. you can't just make a bunch of junk and try to hawk it off by telling people they might get what they want.
now for something like a card game that's different. card games work on gambler logic. buying a pack of cards is like pulling a slot machine it's supposed to be up to chance. using random packs in games of chance makes since It's when you use random packs in games like rpgs or shooters or what have you that it becomes a rip off.
Uploaded on my birthday and all that jazz.
Check out Valkyrie Crusade on smartphones (available for both Android and iPhone). I think the game does a lot of things right for being a collectable game - or at least, it did in its early days. Now, I'm not so sure if I've just gotten bored of the game, or if the design of the game is just not good enough to keep people interested long-term (practically all of my friends that used to play have stopped since). It lasted a good 7-8 months for me.
It's all true in Duel of Champions. And probobly in Heartstone (don't have beta yet). I love to buy new packs and collect.
oh about that problem that you said about last. im am REALLY seeing you say the truth on that i mean like just play elemental power on kongregate and you see that you can use ANY card as something to make another card more powerful or if max capacity of power it evolves and has a better play effect or gains another
you glossed over the point that digital collectible games often need to lack trading.
Also the converting into fuel makes the marginal utility of each pack decline more slowly, but it still declines quite rapidly.
What Rage of Bahamut does show us is how a TCG can be turned into a bloody amazing anime.
I understand that this all is good from a monetary point. But as a rather stuborn person random items can realy turn me off. That is why i can't get in to game who use this. It feels unfair to me.
What would you say about a system than increases the chance of rare items appearing in lootbox as the player increases in level, i.e. a levelled lootbox? That way the player is rewarded for playing the game and is continually encouraged to spend money, because they know they generally won't get crap from the things.
I think I heard him say chimney imp is useless. Did I hear that right? I don't understand. Chimney imp is one of the greatest cards ever, it can only be beaten by a storm crow.
I keep thinking of defenders of texel and how it did everything mentioned in this video correctly.
I thought that outro music sounded familiar! Woo, secret of mana music!
I love Magic, and I enjoy getting good commons and uncommons as much as I do rares. Nothing is better than spending $5 to make an entire deck and completely destroying your neighbor who is convinced that "Rare cards = good cards"
I've already bought the rucks voice pack, AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN
I actually played rage of bahamut for longer than I have any other F2P card game (there's quite a few on android). It's got great production values, but all these PvE focused CCGs with leveled cards that you have to upgrade... are all giant skinner boxes. There's no focus on deck building like there is in something like MTG or Hearthstone.
No comments as of right now? No comments... This is my chance... My chance to say something funny, witty, and intelligent and possibly have it seen by hundreds of viewers and the producers of this video... I can't screw this up. Here goes:
First!
No, but seriously. I love these videos. They're a chance for me to listen to intelligent discussion about the things I love most and to learn a little bit about a wide variety of topics. Hell, I even managed to apply the idea of the "uncanny valley" to something in my personal life.
So in terms of all the good things you described digital card games can do, you pretty much just described Hearthstone.
Before watching, I was rather keen on collectable games, and enjoyed the concept. Now I don't.
Alright.. now I just need to get part 2 for the collection.
Why exactly must every CCG or TCG be based on a multiplayer? -.-
This like SEGA's Kingdom Conquest 1 and 2 and they have been around quite a few years on IOS and Android
I have like 100 chimney imps. But they are really good defense cards to distract your opponent.
I wonder what he would think of Ayakashi Ghost Guild. It's my favorite phone game.
Alright I want to just take a second to talk about Clash Royale. Some people love it, others hate it. I personally think it's pretty decent and play it quite a bit. I think they did great with the collectable model though. You gain access to more cards as you progress and getting ones you already have is still cool because you can upgrade it if you get enough. Anyway, if you disagree, feel free to tell me, I'm open to debate.
Pvz Garden Warfare is also a Collectible Game. I like it! :D
Is it just me or isn't it much better simply to pay 60$ and get it all at once... seem like every other modle end up costing way more and are often unbalanced or don't give what you want.
Hearthstone does just what was described in the video very well.
Brave Frontier does a nice job of this.
What if there was something like Mario 3D World or Sonic Colors where certain power ups are helpful but not required to get through an area. You can 100% the game without power ups, but it is very difficult. The power ups wouldn't be very abundant, but you can find them if you look hard enough, and keep them after the area has been passed. Power ups can be sold in packs of 3-5-10, going up in price, $1-3-5.
You know that's micro transactions, the thing that gamers hate?
Well... you're stupid!
You're lonely.
You are too... friends?
Friends.
Spoiler from the future: Rage of Bahamut wins.
And to this day, so many good games follow this model today
So is there a list of games James has worked on? I'm curious
You think I would only buy a Rucks voice pack one time?
You guys play the coolest music at the end of your video's. Where do you dig that up at?
a lot of it comes from here: ocremix.org/
also note that they usually put links to their outro music in the description
Thanks for the tip!
i'm sorry what? spare chimney imps? they're the rarest and most powerful of magic cards. do your research!
I love mtg so much. The great thing is, if I don't like a rare, I can trade it for something I do want.
Haha, Chimney Imp. There's an MTG player in there somewhere XD