@@demopan7853 Though the Phase Locket level and the segment after getting it from Chester would have to be revised if the item was changed in that way.
rather than a cooldown i think just making it cost a lot more mana, maybe 30, would be fine. that way you can still spam it occasionally, but it has the obvious consequence of leaving you low on mana. i like the idea of not being able to attack while it's active too
Phase locket probs would've been complained about less if it was found in a later stage. It's stupid to be able to get it on potentially the second level you play.
@Pokémon ultra Sun fan 647, RABBIDS! GODZILLA! that does seem to be a difficulty setting tho, for people who find the game REALLY hard i already beat standard SoH and blitzing through it with invincible shovel knight was still rather fun, and having that code be an 'easy' mode makes good sense in contrast to the normal mode
I used it to dodge the most complex attacks, if I don't know how to avoid it without it, I'll use it until I can dodge without it Self-generated difficulty, unconsciously
I don't know if you still read these, but shovel knight's Dust Knuckles or whatever they are called again make you invulnerable, move you, damage the enemy and cost practically nothing. They're insane.
This is why I learned to love the Magicist Coat. More magic lead to me experiment with more relics which made me learn the Dust Knuckles can effectively *replace* the Shovel. Nuts to think about.
Yeah you have to say they're the best close-range item in the game but remember it's close range and it moves you away from the boss when you hit it so that balance it out
@@tinakennedy8073 It actually moves you closer, sometimes even past them, and then you can just turn around and punch again. Also, it has a slight amount of range, and it can easily kill an enemy if you get close.
Shovel Knight was my favorite game before I saw this video, and now it's still my favorite game, but I have an enhanced appreciation of what it does right because my love is no longer blind and I can recognize the bits that don't work as well
My only complaint with the NG+ is that you can still select the will skull. While scrolling through the items you have, there's always this one "dead" option. Maybe they should have made it so it consumes a medium-small amount of darkness, but temporarily boosts the darkness you gain from killing enemies, so it becomes a risk/reward system of "If I use it now, will I be able to earn back what I lost?" And then, taking that back to the original campaign, it would temporarily make all enemies drop will, making it not an easy health restoration, but not a terrible one either.
I feel like King Knight does a decent job with it's relics, as probably the most useful one, the hammer that can produce hearts, only occurs when you actually hit with it, and you still have to collect the hearts afterwards.
The Hammer? I would say F l a m e S w o r d or the Scepter or the Gyro Boots are the best ones, for different situations. Of course I don't really use very many of them ever anyway but you know.
@@pikminman13 my problem is that, in the base game, the vitality armor makes the flame sword and scepter waaaay too broken, the only things that still give me trouble are dragon knights and even then the sword is the best solution.
@@masonjones7777 Yea, I guess that's fair. Personally, I put on the air dash armor and never took it off for all 20 achievements, and rarely used the heirlooms to begin with because my buster only nature makes me less likely to use things regardless of how cool they look.
yeah king of cards has really good items. I found myself every item to great effect atleast once (well, there is ranged javelin, but whatever.) but never abusing any. in SoH and PoS I never used items and in SoT I abused will skull (I'll be it I never tanked) so KoC was a nice refresher.
Honestly i feel the best way to balance the relics would be to simply increase the mana cost of utilizing the phase locket. I say this because I truly believe most of the items in shovel of hope are already broken in their own way, they just require more experimentation to realize that potential and generally aren't applicable to every situation, which is why the phase locket appears to be so much better than every other relic, when in reality, for almost every case, there's a better relic for the job. An instance of this could be seen in the chaos orb and flare rod, which because of them being right next to each other could easily be spammed in tandem with your basic attacks to kill mini bosses and bosses within literal seconds. You also have the alchemy coin which deals twice the damage of your shovel allowing you to one shot most enemies(which keeps the flow going) and yields more gold at the same time. If you have a firm grasp on how each of the items work there is very few situations in which the phase locket is the best item to use, simply because the phase locket is A: slow(which destroys the game's flow), B: trivializes a lot of the games challenge and C: prevents you from yielding as many rewards as possible. Other items don't trivialize the game's challenges whilst yielding an even better result if you make good use of them. So in my opinion they should've kept the phase locket functionally the same but given it a ridiculously high mana cost, like 20 or so, to encourage more creative play. If you deliberately try playing the game without making use of the phase locket I think this point is actually self evident.
I'm suprised you haven't complained about the judgement rush, or dedicated a larger amount of time to complaining about it. that curio lets you skip literal entire sections of an area. you do need a bit of skill to use it, but i used that way more than the will skull in my original playthrouhg of the game. that aside, Skeletor is completely overpowered, definitely agree, phase locket is absolutely dumb levels of ridiculous, and I haven't tried NG+ because I am a lazy ass person.
Well, me personally my Spectre Knight play through I finally got through, I didn't even get the judgement rush till the very end. Of course had I known about it, and that the red skull items you can buy depending on levels beaten, I might have done Propeller Knight's stage first.
@@anafu-sankanashi8933 It's also pretty useful in several spots for speed runs, and it's why you pretty much have to start at Propeller Knight, it lets you get around some walls, and skip some platforming sections or bypass parts of some rooms. Having 100%ed the game on both PC and Switch and done a handful of speed runs myself, It's a must have item.
In Plague of Shadows at the end credits Spectre knight is given the ending of “the lost locket” yacht games I guess pointed out that it was overpowered and put it in spectys lore and also to laugh at the joke and get angry for shovel knight commuting theft in a graveyard.
Great video, thought the commentary was very insightful. Like you, I have found myself completely avoiding item use during my first attempt at New Game plus. I was fortunate that I found your video before completing my first playthrough. However, not sure if I'm going to take advantage of the mr. Skittles cheese strat. I've been using the risk rainment and blowing up my first check point so I can relax a little bit through the stage and not feel like I'm being forced to speed run it (despite that being the main draw for me). All together, this is by far the best version of shovel Knight
Fantastic video mate! I love what you said about optional not being immune to criticism, and that players WILL naturally abuse any overpowered items/weapons they find because they're using everything they have in order to win. I agree that the whole "Don't like it? Just don't use it!" argument is really shallow, and you can confirm it's a weak argument by simply playing any video game that has a broken tool to utilize. I'll totally admit that I abuse Metal Blade every time I play Mega Man 2 because not only is the game hard enough as is, but it's simply the most useful weapon that's in the game. If Metal Blade had, say, little ammunition or strictly horizontal fire, then it might've encouraged players to use different weapons. But as is, imbalance in one's apparatus or arsenal of weapons encourages cheap play, and diminishes challenge for all that it's worth. That's just my take though, fantastic analysis man! Can't wait to see what you think of King of Cards.
I'm glad I unintentionally completely neglected every relic besides the propeller dagger in all my playthroughs of shovel knight lol. I had no idea how busted the phase locket was
I have a feeling that they removed the will skull less because it was broken, and more because it does not function with combined health and magic meters. You're consuming darkness, to give you darkness. Its either useless, or an unlimited loop that destroys the mode
Another thing that supports this idea is that new game + was released at the same time as specter of torment, so if they realised it was broken why not nerf it in normal specter of torment
The Shovel Knight NG+ wasn't that great as you said, but the Boss Rush was fantastic. You couldn't just use the phase locket on each boss, because you had limited mana (you don't get a mana refill until after two bosses) so you had to experiment with cheaper/more efficient items to deal with your threat. You also had to strategize and learn your opponents attack patterns. It was a pretty great experience, and it would have been nice if the rest of the NG+ was like that.
VeinerSchnoozle except that, at Max Mana, you have at least 100 Mana, giving you 12 phases for two bosses, more than enough to dodge all incoming damage. Also, some bosses (like king Knight, specter knight, and tinker Knight) are so easy to beat without taking much damage that you don't need it for them.
@Fresh_Knight oh that. Yeah, but 30/8= 3 remainder 6, so as long as you used all 100+ Mana to cheese Polar Knight, that's 3-4 get out of jail free cards
Great video as always, and I love the kind of analysis and discussion you sparked in the comments section. Lots of interesting weigh-ins from a lot of different perspectives.
Before I go on this little tangent I'd like to say that I really enjoy your videos. How can you say the items are part of the intended experience when you have to go out of your way to find them? None of them appear on the main path, if you get them it's because you chose to go find them. It's less "don't like don't use" and more "why do you keep going out of your way to find them". The propeller dagger is a great example of this, you specifically have to drop in from the screen above to be able to go get it. This makes it very likely that first-time players won't find all of them. This is why the game isn't balanced around the items, it would be unfair to players who didn't find them. They aren't meant to be standard weapons in your inventory, they're a reward you get for going out of your way to find them. In risk/reward terms, the risk comes from you as the player diverging from the main path and going the extra mile to explore the unknown, the reward is the use you then get out of them item. The balance isn't perfect, but compare the items that are hard to miss to the items that are hard to get, and it becomes clear that the more effort it took to acquire, the easier it makes your play-through. It's less like the Metal Blade and more like Zero's saber in X3. Does it break the game? Yes. But is it just handed to you? No. And I'm not saying "it's optional so you can't critique it", but I am saying that being optional should play a part in how we think of them, not just brushed off to the side like a minor detail.
Well I think the presence of Chester in the hub world makes it pretty clear that they wanted players to have relatively easy access to all the items. And your point about whether the game is balanced around items or not brings up a whole new issue: the positive and negative feedback loops that can happen when you reward skilled players with things to make the game easier. Think about it this way. A struggling player who's just barely able to stumble through a level probably isn't going to find the hidden screens to get the items in the level. Plus, they're probably not going to finish the stage with very much money, thanks to shovel knight's death punishment system. So now what happens? This player who's already having a tough time with the game is going to have an even harder time getting access to the items that are supposedly there to help him. And trust me, there are people who are gonna have this hard a time. I saw a guy on reddit who could barely do the first stage because he didn't know that you can hold the button to jump higher, so he was falling into almost every pit over and over. And think about it from the other side (my side). I'm already doing fine with the game, and having no trouble finishing stages with lots of money and finding items for half price in the stages themselves. Now, thanks to my skill at the game, I'm being rewarded with items that make the game EVEN EASIER! Now I'm free to abuse these powerful items as much as I want and the game might as well just roll credits when a skilled player gets their hands on the phase locket or will skull or skellly sentry. (That's an exaggeration of course but you know what I mean.) Now these are somewhat extreme cases, but they illustrate my point. This is why I've never really liked when the big epic secret in a game like, just off the top of my head, Ratchet and Clank, rewards all your money collecting a secret hunting with a weapon that just completely breaks the game. I get that players want a significant reward for their efforts, and I'm not saying it's bad design to do this. But I don't really get much enjoyment from putting in a lot of effort just to be rewarded with something that completely breaks the game and sucks all the challenge out. Or in shovel knight's case, rewards some modest effort with something that sucks some of the challenge out. I prefer games that reward my hard effort with some further challenges. Like how the new Mario games that give you access to the secret super hard world once you've gotten x number of stars or whatever. I wrote a damn essay here and I feel like I've strayed away from the original point but I just had a long weekend camping and I am dead tired. But I appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment!
Specty's New Game Plus also has a real neat interaction with the Raiment of Risk. As long as you make it to a level's first checkpoint, your attack reach and speed increases until you die, and your Darkness/Will Bar will actually regenerate, since the natural decay introduced by the mode is counteracted by the cloak's Darkness regen effect. You have to really limit your Curio usage though, since the regen won't act quickly enough to save you from a botched Judgement rush, and the lack of invincibility frames from failing to complete the move will likely make the next attack fatal.
I actually never used most of these items the ones I used most were: chronos, hover plume, dread rush and the normal scythe I only used the soul in the most dire of times when I had a lot of damage to heal As for shovel of hope: dust knuckles, the anchor, flare wand and the gear of movement and first phase skipping I never used phase locket I love this video though so keep up the good work
I'm going to say, that items are part of the intended game. The game is fairly light hearted and doesn't take itself too seriously, so while yes some items could have been better balanced as you put it. Saying that they aren't communicating to the player that they don't need them, isn't true either. The items are all optional to buy, and there several different feats/ achievements for not using them or otherwise limiting yourself for time or upgrades. And that's one thing this game does well, is it allows the player to set limits on themselves, without making the game impossible or requiring exploits.
Shovel knight is not a hard game, but it is a fun game. I'm not some kind of hardcore 'gamer', nor am I a particularly smart person, but even I recognize the intent of the game is not to challenge just how quickly you can push buttons, but to present an opportunity for wicked, simple, fun. The phase locket's power is not a mistake, and I hate to break it to anyone who thinks it was an oversight, but you are not the only smarty-pants in a world of idiots. The Yacht Club are a bunch of smarty-pants too, it is impossible for them to have believed that the locket was balanced in a difficulty sense, but it was balanced in the fun-enabling sense, which is what was intended. In this video and the item one, you thoroughly explained how the phase locket was obviously broken, while also claiming it wasn't obvious enough to inform the player that they were playing on easy mode. It is blatant. It isn't even trying. No one can pretend it isn't. You are not the lone genius who has realized a vital flaw in the system, you are pointing at a feature and shrieking bug. The phase locket helps accomplish the ultimate goal of Shovel Knight: FUN, but more specifically, fun for everyone. Shovel knight gives ANY player the tools for a fun time. It's got speed running, exploration, casual difficulty, moderate difficulty, music, but it doesn't label any of these things. The game trusts the intelligence of its players, it knows it doesn't need to name the phase locket 'EZ locket', it knows it doesn't need to label new game + 'not so EZ mode', it knows it doesn't need to clarify that upgrades aren't necessary, it knows it doesn't need to say, uh, other stuff. You shouldn't be upset at the game for giving you the reigns for creating your own personal best experience, you should be disappointed that when given all the tools to create your own fun, you are incapable of doing anything except the most standard of runs. Still very well put together and enjoyable video, sorry for commenting so late
Man I think I just got whiplash from that last sentence lol. I appreciate your thoughtful criticism, but I think we just have different philosophies on how games ought to construct difficulty and balance. Thanks for watching.
Hey man I emailed yacht club to ask if the balance really was intentionally off, it seems I was mostly wrong, here was their response: "When we created the relics, we tried our best to make them as balanced as possible but this is very difficult to get just right, so even after many tweaks and changes we still had a few of the relics that could make the game a lot easier than others. We figure that the relics can be used to help players who are having a tougher time with the game, or they could be used selectively as a self imposed challenge for more experienced players, so even if we couldn't get them to be evenly balanced we figure that it can help players who have difficulties with the game." It seems they weren't originally intended to be all over the board in terms of usefulness, but they seem fine with acknowledging the role they play now, so it's all good.
Just finished my first run of new game plus, definitely the best way to play specter knight's campaign I'm really glad you recommended it. I do think the will skull was clearly intended as a difficulty supplement given that they removed it from ng+.
A way I would balance the phase locket is that it could still make you invincible but at the same time you can’t damage enemies. Bounce off of them sure but not damage them. For the skull on the other hand is to either reduce the health healed or give you a boost of some kind like increased damage or defensive.
Very interesting video. I never had problems with relics or curios, because I didn't use them that much altogether, especially in Specter of Torment. I like the base moves and opening a list of items in the middle of action kinda wears off the excitement for me, so, yeah. I now understand why some of these could be overpowered for other types of players.
Going for the achievements, I find use out of a number of the curios. I still use the skull to top off if i really need it, since I feel I am already challenging myself with other conditions.
One cure... THE CHEAT CODE FOR GET HIT ONCE = DEAD. I’ve tried it myself for each campaign, and I managed to get Shovel Knight at the boss-rush level, while beating both Plague and Specter campaigns. Not only does it require you to take your time and memorize attack patterns while providing difficulty, but it forces you to use almost EVERY relic in your arsenal. I recommend trying it out for you guys, sure it may make you cripple in rage, but it’s a Dark-Souls experience you won’t forget. Fun fact: I died exactly 1,358 times in Specter of Torment. Plus you get bragging rights, so checkmate... YOU get good, scrub.
I played Specter if Torment on a Wiimote. I think it’s the only game I’ve played that was fast and comfortable while I used it, which I think is a really impressive feat.
Before watching these videos, I never thought the will skull/phase lockets could break the game like that, honestly, I didnt understood this in the first time, because I never used phase lockets to break the game and always tried to create strategies with the sub weapons (not by implying house rules lol), but it was just my personal experience
I think the point of 'Don't like it don't use it' is just that you aren't FORCED to use that thing all the time... You're still a player and help yourself have a better or worse experience. You act like you can't NOT use op items all the time and that's just... wrong. Of course, only having the OPTION is sad, bad design and the game being unbalanced nonetheless. It just seems as if you're forced by the game to use the phase locket or mr. bones all the time, and you're not. That's why there's challenge runs or individual playstyles, that people do so that the game is as enjoyable as possible for them. Okay, further on, I don't at all say that you shouldn't criticize it, I stated that above. It's completely worth doing that. Yet I personally think, that the intended experience of items was to boost people that either want to get creative and with that crush stages and bosses, or help struggling players. I myself, and I know many other people as well like me, just never even really got into using items except in bonus stages or the refights in challenge mode. Simply because it didn't feel necessary and because the difficulty was very nice as is. They did seem like playthings you don't really need but could use for fun. I mean, it's unclear how the majority of people took it, but that's what I can say from my point of view. Also, another reason why the devs might have made the decision (and a GOOD decision) to keep all the items they have just like that in the main campaign as well as NG+, is that in the achievements section of the game, there are plenty of awesome challenges to be done that include not using items. A very nice balance overall imo for all players to play the game normally with all items available, and for people with more skill and patience there's NG+ with some added difficulty and achievement challenges for taking away some things that can be played in an unbalanced way in the main campaign. Which doesn't really happen to everyone at all again. What do you think about this? I hope I could give some new perspective or smth
You are correct that the phase locket is a bit op. I think it was intended that you'd use the locket to dodge an attack here and there that you don't know how to dodge, or help you if you're not that great at avoiding spikes. That's how I used it, at least. After playing it a few times, I stopped using the locket entirely. I don't think spamming it was ever the intent. It really should've had a higher cost. Also, it should've prevented you from damaging enemies. You ARE phasing through them, after all!
AVGN once said that the design of Castlevania was to make using items during the level appealing, but that smart players would save their hearts for the bosses because the right item can cripple a boss who was normally very difficult with the whip. The same seems to be true with Shovel Knight, but the checkpoints right before the bosses ensure that no matter how many items you used getting to the boss youre only 1 death away from a full magic bar to use on the boss. With Specter and Plague Knight this is even more of a problem, because they both have ways to regain their items during the boss fight while Shovel at least has to use them wisely. If the boss checkpoint was removed in favor of one that was say halfway through the level in NG+ then item use would feel more fair for Shovel who would have to conserve items in level and Specter who would have to play well to get to the boss with significant darkness. Plague would still have unlimited though...
For myself, I just found Specter Knight's regular gameplay to be so fun I never really bothered with the items. It's interesting to hear the perspective of someone who did
I never thought of using items until entrantress when I used the lantern shield when realizing she was very projectile based and it let me hit her when she was beneath the platform
I loved Specter Knight campaing, new game + was definitely a blast and the fight against the dark knight was a pain in the *ss I definitely agree with what you say about the items, everything should have their own niche, not much to say, very good and enjoyable video overall (i watched it entirely)
Seriously, I loved this mode because it turned the whole game into a speedrun, and it's clear the devs had this in mind. The Rail Mail platforms perfectly in the explodatorium and the raiment of risk also allows for a fun, yet challenging way of subverting the main restriction of NG+. And yes, judgement rush is the most overpowered curio for this mode. I actually never ended up using the skeletal sentry because I a) understood it was a high-level item that required the training I didn't feel like putting in, and b) I was more comfortable using items such as judgement rush, chronos coin, and feather that I both enjoy more and think are ultimately more useful. BTW, I think the hardest boss in specter knight NG+ is the revamped black knight near the end of the game. I spent an hour on that guy and ultimately beat him only through patience and memorizing his move set because nothing else really worked on him. Actually, it felt just like Dark Souls.
you know how i figured out mr bones is OP? i accidentally (not realizing it was equipped) threw him out against polar knight just as he ran past me and before i can even blink i get the damage-less boss fight achievement. it shredded him in less than 5 seconds. even outside of NG+, specter was the character i experimented the most with and learned some surprisingly useful items for scenarios. for example, bounding soul and the spider scythe can both collect money bags, and are safer than the risk involved jumping into a pit after them. the different angles and ability to stick to surfaces give them unique uses.
It’s like with the exp. share in the new Pokémon. Sure you can turn it off, but it shouldn’t be there in the first place. It renders most the grinding, team building, etc. pointless, because you know you don’t have to do it to progress and you’re essentially just wasting time. Time and effort spent on a game should feel productive in some way, not like some self imposed chore.
To be fair, grinding in Pokemon is God awful. Because NONE of the wild Pokemon will give nearly enough exp unless you're fighting Audinos or chanseys. It makes grinding a pain in the ass. The new exp share would be dumb if Pokemon was good at level curves
I mean, with Pokemon, the EXP Share is overall a moot point anyway because today's Pokemon games are easy even without the EXP Share. If you're an experienced Pokemon player that knows all the weaknesses and strengths to each type, that knowledge alone makes the game really easy. To me, the EXP Share is overkill so it really doesn't matter if it's on or off.
to be fair you can leave the skeletal sentry out and use other curios at the same time, so while it me be broken, at least it doesn't discourage using other curios at the same time.
Idk, for how I played, I found Specter Knight's homing slash (not the curio, just his jumping attack) to be the most OP lol just spam them bosses. Plague Knight had the toughest campaign for me as well as the more balanced items imo. Great vid, always enjoy your Shovel Knight stuff.
While the Will Skull and the Phase locket are absolutely fucking busted and trivialize challenge (Mister Bonez to a lesser degree), All the items have the potential to just break levels. One of Shovel Knight's most obvious inspirations is the Mega Man series, and a huge part of those games is utilizing the right abilities from certain bosses on others to dunk on them. One of the biggest draws to those games was figuring out the correct setup to cheese bosses and your real skill came from maneuvering the stages in the most effective way possible. I was actually surprised you weren't more upset with the items you get from Propeller Knight in Shovel Knight and Specty's campaigns (and the Knuckles) as they make platforming in most cases an absolute cakewalk. Also, Horace's minigame with optimal Judgement Rush use is peak Specter Knight gameplay.
I know this will sound weird, but Phase Locket is the safe option overall, right, no discussion on that, but it is not the optimal. For example, against Specter Knight, I realized that using the Fire Wand is even more broken against Specter and the Enchantress Phase 1 than just playing defensively. The Flying Dagger can really be useful for the Phase 2. The Chaos Orb works like a charm on the Plague Knight battle. Yes, we have a broken item, but it our responsability to discover that other items are broken on the right scenarios.
I never really used the sentry. I use the bounding soul a lot because it usually hits eventually. I did spam the will skull though. Edit: the barrier lantern is OP if you ask me.
This is a case where I agree with the video on alot of things but I have to admit that Shovel Knight might not have been as popular if there wasn't an OP option that people could use to blow through things. Accessibility is an important feature for a game to be popular. I know Hyve Minds repeatedly says that ''if it's not good don't use it'' isn't a good argument but gamers have a long history of just cutting out parts of games they don't like even though another gamer might like said part of the game. Competitive Smash Bros Melee players (the largest group of people that currently play) cut out all the items and most of the stages cause they are all break the way they want to play the game; However without these things the game wouldn't be near as popular in the first place since the large majority of casual players like them (casual players being the larger initial player base). Pokemon Nuzlock challenges are self imposed rules that remove large chunks of the game to add challenge and 'fun' for the more experienced players. This isn't even a case like a Fighting Game or RTS where one character is too overpowered an limits the rest of the roster like "Jo Jo's Bizzare Adventure Heritage for the Future" where Petshop has to be straight up banned to make the game any fun for either player. This is a single player game where it's up to you how to play it and use any of the items at your disposal. I could come up with more examples like prefering bad weapons in Dark Souls or not using any boss weapons but the Mega Buster.... actually Megaman is the perfect example of this game design which I think the Shovel Knight Devs may have copied purposefully. Hear me out here... Megaman bosses have a weakness weapon that makes them a joke or you can just fight them your own way with the other weapons. Weakness weapons lock the enemy boss in stun and make them 'not fun' using Hyve Mind's standards. At the same time I know alot of people won't play through Megaman if they can't use the Weakness Weapons. Is it 'Bad Design'? Maybe it is. Is it design that makes a popular and successful game? Yes it is for better or for worse. ...All this being said I think the Phase Locket is a bit of a lazy way to make an Overpowered weapon and guiding players to more creative solutions should generally be the goal instead of doing as I mentioned. I do think all the criticism's of the items are valid yet still mostly subjective which is why so many people are allowed to dissagree with you saying the OP items, while flawed for many players, are still something that makes the game overall more successful.
I feel like you're missing the point. Items may be powerful, but just because *you* have an easy time using and abusing them to get ahead, doesn't mean everybody does. When playing Specter of Torment I almost never used the will skull. I had other curios I would've rather used my darkness on, and I frequently got manhandled whenever I tried using it for a quick heal, only ever able to make use of it in pauses in the action, and I never found the skull sentry particularly useful, because I had troubles lining it up sufficiently, and a lot of it would go to waste unless I was fighting a particular boss. Rather, I frequently used the dread talon especially on bosses, because I frequently found myself in close proximity to my enemies a lot, and judgement rush was another go-to when I got it, and trashed the game using them. The phase locket is somewhat the same, although it was still a really good item, I primarily excused it because of it's significance to the overall story of shovel knight, and the poetic nature of it's use, but all that doesn't negate your points on it's balance any. Point is, just because you made devastating usage of it doesn't mean it did that for everyone, and what's more having items of that nature makes the game more accessible, where otherwise it would be frustratingly hard for someone who's far more casual or less skilled than you or I.
I think that unobtrusive difficulty modes, the kind that you don't need to actively select, should feel slightly cheesy and suboptimal, perhaps involving abnormal gameplay. Say, waiting for platforms instead of taking risky jumps; looking for environment clues in a puzzle game. In Terraria, you can beat some bosses easily, even the one meant to be near-unbeatable, with complex machines and arenas- it's just a matter of how low you're willing to stoop. I've also heard about a boss in Dark Souls that you can shoot with arrows before the boss fight, which seems like a great idea. Thinking about it more, the phase locket seems like less of a problem: at least to me, it didn't feel like an obvious route to spam the phase locket, but I imagine a player turning to it when very frustrated and looking for possibilities. Admittedly, it didn't occur to me to use the items that often at all, so I might be a bad example. Or maybe you're meant to not see to use them until you need to, in which case I'm a perfect example.
Specty's ng+ was the only one i beat. It was by far the most enjoyable. Plus, his campaign and basic moveset are by far the best anyway. I will admit, I discovered that using the apparel that let's you break checkpoints to regen darkness does break this mode. It makes it super easy and ruins the satisfaction.
what if SoH NG+ had no refill of mana whatsoever throughout the level? And Phase Locket costs ya 25% of your maximum mana? And Dust Knuckles had a cooldown of 5 seconds?
My one big problem with the original Shovel Knight was that the Lich Yard was way too close to the beginning of the game. It could have worked much better as a wrecked town near the end of the game (much like Old Kasuto in Zelda 2). Specter Knight would be built up from the beginning of the game and serve as a last big challenge before the Tower of Fate (much like Death in Castlevania) in a legitimately difficult boss fight. The phase locket's overpowered nature would be at the very end of the game, leaving it more like the -infini- propeller dagger; only game-breaking at the end, when the difficulty ramps up as well.
I love specter knight, I have played it over 12 times and beatenNew game plus at least once the story is amazing and I love specter Knight abilities and the ghostly garb is just sick.
"NG+ is the hardest gaming experience of my life." I just did the "Checkpointless, No Will No Darkness Upgrade and 60000 Gold Ending" Run and let me tell you, it's nightmare fuel.
Personally yeah I can see that the skeleton sentry is really good and yeah if I have it I'll use it but the immediate problem I have with the Enchantress fight is that the blocks can be destroyed by both her and you meaning that part of your literal ground is dependent on RNG I fucking hate that. Especially when this campaign encourages you to jump around to gain that air dash/slash. This was the fight where I found a use for the bouncy orbs. because when a foe stands still and then darts around the screen lasting like 10 or more seconds is good. also I liked using the barrier more than the skull because of the blocks that attack you before the enchantress encounter.
I can’t imagine fighting a boss and saying: “Man, I wish I couldn’t use this technique to beat the boss,” as I’m using said technique, and then proceeding to use said technique for the rest of the game. I get your point, but with so many items in your possession, it’s ultimately up to the player to make a strategy that they deem both effective AND fun. Despite your solid arguments, I still think it comes down to “You don’t like it, don’t use it.”
I think the best way to play shovel knight is to play it like a speedrunner find the fastest way to beat a level with the items. The feats recommend that you learn to speedrun beating the game in less than an 1h and 30min needs you to use you're items that does not slow you down like in shovel of hope chaos orb the bosses get good at platforming the locket is too slow.
I have played through specter of torment normal 2 times and ng+ 2 times and i never onced used the skeleton sniper because i thought it was a bad weapon. I was wrong
Easily the best experience for this game is no curios. I’m playing through all campaigns this way and it’s so fun and challenging. I’d recommend to any decently experienced shovel knight player
It's funny, I've almost finished completing everything to do in the game, and I don't think I've ever used the Phase Locket outside of the one level designed for it. I'm not saying this to disagree or anything, but I never considered it at all. The same goes for the Skeletal Sentry, until I got to halfway through Specter Knight's NG+.
a good argument against the idea that optional = uncritiquable; all content is intended content. yacht club games didn't put the phase locket, will skull and skeletal sentry in because they wanted them to go unused. they put those in under the impression someone was going to see them, use them, and have an opinion on them.
additionally, by their same logic, imagine a competitive fighting game got a new character added as DLC, and that character was overpowered. are the people who play the competitive fighting game NOT allowed to critique that character for being unbalanced, simply because the character is DLC, and therefore optional?
or even; you didn't have to buy shovel knight if you didn't like shovel knight. by their logic, you aren't allowed to critique ANY elements of shovel knight, period. which is completely nonsensical reasoning.
I still completely disagree with the combined darkness/will meter as a required feature. In a game that plays up the player's choice of tools, to lock everybody into this feels like it's a totally mixed signal. Had it been a separate costume or equippable, or just an _option,_ I very likely would love it because it doesn't totally force me to change my entire playstyle. That's what a separate experimenting file is for! And "adapt" is exactly what I did in the previous campaigns, for the record. That's why I've beaten this game nearly 100 times since launch! I've done every Feat multiple times, I've learned the best uses for every item in each campaign over time. It is specifically this one thing that draws my ire. In general I still feel much of Specter loses the design philosophy that made Shovel Knight so captivating, all in the name of selling the game individually. I respect that decision - after all, Plague Knight LOST them money! - but I don't care for the product that came out as a result, at least not nearly as much as the two campaigns that came before it.
Well, for one, Shovel and Plague Knight were each based around a relatively basic character who's _enhanced_ by the choices given to him, rather than a character whose design explicitly tosses away those abilities (first in the base game and then especially so in the NG+). There's a lot more than that but I'm typing this sporadically at work so I'm sure I'm missing some points I'd otherwise bring up, forgive me. I think we have a fundamental disagreement about items and their balance, really, that's what it comes down to. What's funny is I used to agree with you before I did the Feats and whatnot! Your personal use of the Phase Locket defined your playthroughs because of dominant strategy, and in many ways that's what defined my early playthroughs too. I strongly suggest you try to do the challenges, the boss challenges especially. Those are what really changed my opinion about the items and what brought the game from "yeah I really like it" to "goddamn, this is a masterclass in design" and had me playing it over and over again, sometimes casually blowing through it multiple times a day.
@Golden Bolt: Regarding judging item balance based off of its feats, that ignores a very large part of the overall game's item balance. If you're going for the feats and going through the boss challenge mode then yes, item balance becomes less of on an issue, but that doesn't change the fact that item balance is very poor in the base game. Both bad and good item balance exist in Shovel Knight; the good doesn't excuse or erase the bad, especially because the bad item balance exists in the portion of the game that most players will be interacting with.
Oh 100%, it wouldn't be fair to say that Specter Knight's item balance is 'good' either just because of New Game +. I think we can all agree that Shovel Knight can be very well balanced in a few places, but really poorly balanced in a whole lot of places too.
not gonna lie,but yeah ik the fusioned will and darkness darin down,but when they reach it's end,you can't die(unless you'll be damaged),but there are still curios that are still usable even it's ALL EMPTY like the scythe boomberang or more alike (if no,then it's just me lol)
i wonder If the will skull wasnt removed What would it do I have a few possibilities Because it refills WILL and in new game + will is thanos snapped out of existence so the skull would just use darkness and give nothing OR it would use an amount of darkness and give back an equal amount of darkness and cancel it out or give a grater amount So basically infinite healing What do you think
Ha, I'm terrible at knowing when to use items, so I barely used the phase locket and the sentry. Seriously, I only beat the enchantress on Specter's NG+ without curios because I didn't know what curios to use.
Totally! Just trying to get as much mileage out of those two popular shovel knight videos as I can. Kingdom Hearts might be next in line for an analysis.
For Specter knight new game plus I didn’t really use items at all lol, not cuz I limited myself but cuz it takes away life. Also I never knew skely boi was so op
phase locket would've been balanced with two simple changes : You can't attack during invincibility, and it has a cooldown. done.
More or less has a use when platforming but isn't that great during boss encounters unless you're using it to dodge a hit or two.
Perfect
@@demopan7853 Though the Phase Locket level and the segment after getting it from Chester would have to be revised if the item was changed in that way.
rather than a cooldown i think just making it cost a lot more mana, maybe 30, would be fine. that way you can still spam it occasionally, but it has the obvious consequence of leaving you low on mana. i like the idea of not being able to attack while it's active too
Maybe you can make it so that the phase locket stops its effect early if you attack.
Phase locket probs would've been complained about less if it was found in a later stage. It's stupid to be able to get it on potentially the second level you play.
First comment of mine that's been highlighted and liked, my day has been made. Thank you Hyve Minds :)
@Pokémon ultra Sun fan 647, RABBIDS! GODZILLA! that does seem to be a difficulty setting tho, for people who find the game REALLY hard
i already beat standard SoH and blitzing through it with invincible shovel knight was still rather fun, and having that code be an 'easy' mode makes good sense in contrast to the normal mode
the leach yard was supposed 2 be on the 3rd part in early dev, not sure y they changed it
@Pokémon ultra Sun fan 647, RABBIDS! GODZILLA! thats a cheat mode. Doesnt count
correction: first level
I feel like an idiot cause I've played Shovel of Hope 4 times 100% and never thought to use the phase locket to break the game
even after watching this video and others I still rarley use phase locket (although I rarley play SoH so...)
That's because you're not a little baby.
That's probably a good thing. The phase locked takes a lot of the challenge and fun out of the game.
I used it to dodge the most complex attacks, if I don't know how to avoid it without it, I'll use it until I can dodge without it
Self-generated difficulty, unconsciously
Same lol, I just used it on situational things
I don't know if you still read these, but shovel knight's Dust Knuckles or whatever they are called again make you invulnerable, move you, damage the enemy and cost practically nothing. They're insane.
This is why I learned to love the Magicist Coat. More magic lead to me experiment with more relics which made me learn the Dust Knuckles can effectively *replace* the Shovel. Nuts to think about.
lol
Yeah you have to say they're the best close-range item in the game but remember it's close range and it moves you away from the boss when you hit it so that balance it out
@@tinakennedy8073 It actually moves you closer, sometimes even past them, and then you can just turn around and punch again. Also, it has a slight amount of range, and it can easily kill an enemy if you get close.
DUST KNUX 4 LIFE
"Except the Bounding Soul, that thing is still pretty garbage"
Speedrunners: "ohohohoho, you fool!"
YOU ABSOLUTE BUFFOON!
Honestly, it's the best enchantress-killing tool yet!
I thought you were Ben Stiller for a moment
@Grimm I approve your approval my good sir!
"Murdering everything in your path heals you. Just...like...in real.......life.”
That actually made me laugh out loud.
Shovel Knight was my favorite game before I saw this video, and now it's still my favorite game, but I have an enhanced appreciation of what it does right because my love is no longer blind and I can recognize the bits that don't work as well
This comment makes me super happy, I'm glad I was able to give you new perspective on this fantastic game!
My only complaint with the NG+ is that you can still select the will skull. While scrolling through the items you have, there's always this one "dead" option. Maybe they should have made it so it consumes a medium-small amount of darkness, but temporarily boosts the darkness you gain from killing enemies, so it becomes a risk/reward system of "If I use it now, will I be able to earn back what I lost?"
And then, taking that back to the original campaign, it would temporarily make all enemies drop will, making it not an easy health restoration, but not a terrible one either.
I like that idea a lot! Use up a little bit of your resources to increase how much your earn for a while
I feel like King Knight does a decent job with it's relics, as probably the most useful one, the hammer that can produce hearts, only occurs when you actually hit with it, and you still have to collect the hearts afterwards.
Do you think he’s gonna see that? This video was made a year ago!
Edit: but seriously tho I agree
The Hammer? I would say F l a m e S w o r d or the Scepter or the Gyro Boots are the best ones, for different situations. Of course I don't really use very many of them ever anyway but you know.
@@pikminman13 my problem is that, in the base game, the vitality armor makes the flame sword and scepter waaaay too broken, the only things that still give me trouble are dragon knights and even then the sword is the best solution.
@@masonjones7777 Yea, I guess that's fair. Personally, I put on the air dash armor and never took it off for all 20 achievements, and rarely used the heirlooms to begin with because my buster only nature makes me less likely to use things regardless of how cool they look.
yeah king of cards has really good items. I found myself every item to great effect atleast once (well, there is ranged javelin, but whatever.) but never abusing any. in SoH and PoS I never used items and in SoT I abused will skull (I'll be it I never tanked) so KoC was a nice refresher.
I always thought that the items where optional/complement to the intended experience, but not actually part of of it
Honestly i feel the best way to balance the relics would be to simply increase the mana cost of utilizing the phase locket. I say this because I truly believe most of the items in shovel of hope are already broken in their own way, they just require more experimentation to realize that potential and generally aren't applicable to every situation, which is why the phase locket appears to be so much better than every other relic, when in reality, for almost every case, there's a better relic for the job. An instance of this could be seen in the chaos orb and flare rod, which because of them being right next to each other could easily be spammed in tandem with your basic attacks to kill mini bosses and bosses within literal seconds. You also have the alchemy coin which deals twice the damage of your shovel allowing you to one shot most enemies(which keeps the flow going) and yields more gold at the same time. If you have a firm grasp on how each of the items work there is very few situations in which the phase locket is the best item to use, simply because the phase locket is A: slow(which destroys the game's flow), B: trivializes a lot of the games challenge and C: prevents you from yielding as many rewards as possible. Other items don't trivialize the game's challenges whilst yielding an even better result if you make good use of them. So in my opinion they should've kept the phase locket functionally the same but given it a ridiculously high mana cost, like 20 or so, to encourage more creative play. If you deliberately try playing the game without making use of the phase locket I think this point is actually self evident.
I feel like it should cost about as much as war horn. (by which i mean around 15, not 20 or more.)
I'm suprised you haven't complained about the judgement rush, or dedicated a larger amount of time to complaining about it. that curio lets you skip literal entire sections of an area. you do need a bit of skill to use it, but i used that way more than the will skull in my original playthrouhg of the game. that aside, Skeletor is completely overpowered, definitely agree, phase locket is absolutely dumb levels of ridiculous, and I haven't tried NG+ because I am a lazy ass person.
Well, me personally my Spectre Knight play through I finally got through, I didn't even get the judgement rush till the very end. Of course had I known about it, and that the red skull items you can buy depending on levels beaten, I might have done Propeller Knight's stage first.
Yeah I actually did use it to skip move sections that annoying me
@@TheJadeFist the only truely proper location to use judgement rush is Horace's tower challenge.
@@anafu-sankanashi8933 It's also pretty useful in several spots for speed runs, and it's why you pretty much have to start at Propeller Knight, it lets you get around some walls, and skip some platforming sections or bypass parts of some rooms. Having 100%ed the game on both PC and Switch and done a handful of speed runs myself, It's a must have item.
@@TheJadeFist did you beat horace's challenge?
In Plague of Shadows at the end credits Spectre knight is given the ending of “the lost locket” yacht games I guess pointed out that it was overpowered and put it in spectys lore and also to laugh at the joke and get angry for shovel knight commuting theft in a graveyard.
I know Im like a year late on this video but this video convinced me to try out Specter of Torment NG+ first because of the challenge.
"Don't like it don't use it" is like saying not to criticize things like Brawl Meta Knight.
Or smash4 bayo and cloud
NG+ with every character should be like this but with no special items...
Great video, thought the commentary was very insightful. Like you, I have found myself completely avoiding item use during my first attempt at New Game plus. I was fortunate that I found your video before completing my first playthrough. However, not sure if I'm going to take advantage of the mr. Skittles cheese strat.
I've been using the risk rainment and blowing up my first check point so I can relax a little bit through the stage and not feel like I'm being forced to speed run it (despite that being the main draw for me). All together, this is by far the best version of shovel Knight
Fantastic video mate! I love what you said about optional not being immune to criticism, and that players WILL naturally abuse any overpowered items/weapons they find because they're using everything they have in order to win. I agree that the whole "Don't like it? Just don't use it!" argument is really shallow, and you can confirm it's a weak argument by simply playing any video game that has a broken tool to utilize. I'll totally admit that I abuse Metal Blade every time I play Mega Man 2 because not only is the game hard enough as is, but it's simply the most useful weapon that's in the game. If Metal Blade had, say, little ammunition or strictly horizontal fire, then it might've encouraged players to use different weapons. But as is, imbalance in one's apparatus or arsenal of weapons encourages cheap play, and diminishes challenge for all that it's worth.
That's just my take though, fantastic analysis man! Can't wait to see what you think of King of Cards.
I'm glad I unintentionally completely neglected every relic besides the propeller dagger in all my playthroughs of shovel knight lol. I had no idea how busted the phase locket was
I have a feeling that they removed the will skull less because it was broken, and more because it does not function with combined health and magic meters. You're consuming darkness, to give you darkness. Its either useless, or an unlimited loop that destroys the mode
Another thing that supports this idea is that new game + was released at the same time as specter of torment, so if they realised it was broken why not nerf it in normal specter of torment
The Shovel Knight NG+ wasn't that great as you said, but the Boss Rush was fantastic. You couldn't just use the phase locket on each boss, because you had limited mana (you don't get a mana refill until after two bosses) so you had to experiment with cheaper/more efficient items to deal with your threat. You also had to strategize and learn your opponents attack patterns. It was a pretty great experience, and it would have been nice if the rest of the NG+ was like that.
VeinerSchnoozle except that, at Max Mana, you have at least 100 Mana, giving you 12 phases for two bosses, more than enough to dodge all incoming damage. Also, some bosses (like king Knight, specter knight, and tinker Knight) are so easy to beat without taking much damage that you don't need it for them.
@Fresh_Knight don't you refill your Mana every other boss?
@Fresh_Knight oh that. Yeah, but 30/8= 3 remainder 6, so as long as you used all 100+ Mana to cheese Polar Knight, that's 3-4 get out of jail free cards
me: huh, will skull basically turns health into mana
yacht club games: * rubs hands together *
The depth you go into on this video is great. I think you reached some very logical and well thought out conclusions
Great video as always, and I love the kind of analysis and discussion you sparked in the comments section. Lots of interesting weigh-ins from a lot of different perspectives.
I like specter of torment the least out of the game modes. Specter is just so slow and cluncky that the new game + just isn't fun for me.
Before I go on this little tangent I'd like to say that I really enjoy your videos.
How can you say the items are part of the intended experience when you have to go out of your way to find them? None of them appear on the main path, if you get them it's because you chose to go find them. It's less "don't like don't use" and more "why do you keep going out of your way to find them". The propeller dagger is a great example of this, you specifically have to drop in from the screen above to be able to go get it. This makes it very likely that first-time players won't find all of them.
This is why the game isn't balanced around the items, it would be unfair to players who didn't find them. They aren't meant to be standard weapons in your inventory, they're a reward you get for going out of your way to find them. In risk/reward terms, the risk comes from you as the player diverging from the main path and going the extra mile to explore the unknown, the reward is the use you then get out of them item. The balance isn't perfect, but compare the items that are hard to miss to the items that are hard to get, and it becomes clear that the more effort it took to acquire, the easier it makes your play-through.
It's less like the Metal Blade and more like Zero's saber in X3. Does it break the game? Yes. But is it just handed to you? No.
And I'm not saying "it's optional so you can't critique it", but I am saying that being optional should play a part in how we think of them, not just brushed off to the side like a minor detail.
Well I think the presence of Chester in the hub world makes it pretty clear that they wanted players to have relatively easy access to all the items. And your point about whether the game is balanced around items or not brings up a whole new issue: the positive and negative feedback loops that can happen when you reward skilled players with things to make the game easier. Think about it this way. A struggling player who's just barely able to stumble through a level probably isn't going to find the hidden screens to get the items in the level. Plus, they're probably not going to finish the stage with very much money, thanks to shovel knight's death punishment system. So now what happens? This player who's already having a tough time with the game is going to have an even harder time getting access to the items that are supposedly there to help him. And trust me, there are people who are gonna have this hard a time. I saw a guy on reddit who could barely do the first stage because he didn't know that you can hold the button to jump higher, so he was falling into almost every pit over and over.
And think about it from the other side (my side). I'm already doing fine with the game, and having no trouble finishing stages with lots of money and finding items for half price in the stages themselves. Now, thanks to my skill at the game, I'm being rewarded with items that make the game EVEN EASIER! Now I'm free to abuse these powerful items as much as I want and the game might as well just roll credits when a skilled player gets their hands on the phase locket or will skull or skellly sentry. (That's an exaggeration of course but you know what I mean.)
Now these are somewhat extreme cases, but they illustrate my point. This is why I've never really liked when the big epic secret in a game like, just off the top of my head, Ratchet and Clank, rewards all your money collecting a secret hunting with a weapon that just completely breaks the game. I get that players want a significant reward for their efforts, and I'm not saying it's bad design to do this. But I don't really get much enjoyment from putting in a lot of effort just to be rewarded with something that completely breaks the game and sucks all the challenge out. Or in shovel knight's case, rewards some modest effort with something that sucks some of the challenge out. I prefer games that reward my hard effort with some further challenges. Like how the new Mario games that give you access to the secret super hard world once you've gotten x number of stars or whatever.
I wrote a damn essay here and I feel like I've strayed away from the original point but I just had a long weekend camping and I am dead tired. But I appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment!
Specty's New Game Plus also has a real neat interaction with the Raiment of Risk. As long as you make it to a level's first checkpoint, your attack reach and speed increases until you die, and your Darkness/Will Bar will actually regenerate, since the natural decay introduced by the mode is counteracted by the cloak's Darkness regen effect. You have to really limit your Curio usage though, since the regen won't act quickly enough to save you from a botched Judgement rush, and the lack of invincibility frames from failing to complete the move will likely make the next attack fatal.
I actually never used most of these items the ones I used most were: chronos, hover plume, dread rush and the normal scythe I only used the soul in the most dire of times when I had a lot of damage to heal
As for shovel of hope: dust knuckles, the anchor, flare wand and the gear of movement and first phase skipping I never used phase locket I love this video though so keep up the good work
I'm going to say, that items are part of the intended game. The game is fairly light hearted and doesn't take itself too seriously, so while yes some items could have been better balanced as you put it. Saying that they aren't communicating to the player that they don't need them, isn't true either. The items are all optional to buy, and there several different feats/ achievements for not using them or otherwise limiting yourself for time or upgrades.
And that's one thing this game does well, is it allows the player to set limits on themselves, without making the game impossible or requiring exploits.
Shovel knight is not a hard game, but it is a fun game. I'm not some kind of hardcore 'gamer', nor am I a particularly smart person, but even I recognize the intent of the game is not to challenge just how quickly you can push buttons, but to present an opportunity for wicked, simple, fun. The phase locket's power is not a mistake, and I hate to break it to anyone who thinks it was an oversight, but you are not the only smarty-pants in a world of idiots. The Yacht Club are a bunch of smarty-pants too, it is impossible for them to have believed that the locket was balanced in a difficulty sense, but it was balanced in the fun-enabling sense, which is what was intended. In this video and the item one, you thoroughly explained how the phase locket was obviously broken, while also claiming it wasn't obvious enough to inform the player that they were playing on easy mode. It is blatant. It isn't even trying. No one can pretend it isn't. You are not the lone genius who has realized a vital flaw in the system, you are pointing at a feature and shrieking bug. The phase locket helps accomplish the ultimate goal of Shovel Knight: FUN, but more specifically, fun for everyone. Shovel knight gives ANY player the tools for a fun time. It's got speed running, exploration, casual difficulty, moderate difficulty, music, but it doesn't label any of these things. The game trusts the intelligence of its players, it knows it doesn't need to name the phase locket 'EZ locket', it knows it doesn't need to label new game + 'not so EZ mode', it knows it doesn't need to clarify that upgrades aren't necessary, it knows it doesn't need to say, uh, other stuff. You shouldn't be upset at the game for giving you the reigns for creating your own personal best experience, you should be disappointed that when given all the tools to create your own fun, you are incapable of doing anything except the most standard of runs. Still very well put together and enjoyable video, sorry for commenting so late
Man I think I just got whiplash from that last sentence lol. I appreciate your thoughtful criticism, but I think we just have different philosophies on how games ought to construct difficulty and balance. Thanks for watching.
Hey man I emailed yacht club to ask if the balance really was intentionally off, it seems I was mostly wrong, here was their response:
"When we created the relics, we tried our best to make them as balanced as possible but this is very difficult to get just right, so even after many tweaks and changes we still had a few of the relics that could make the game a lot easier than others.
We figure that the relics can be used to help players who are having a tougher time with the game, or they could be used selectively as a self imposed challenge for more experienced players, so even if we couldn't get them to be evenly balanced we figure that it can help players who have difficulties with the game."
It seems they weren't originally intended to be all over the board in terms of usefulness, but they seem fine with acknowledging the role they play now, so it's all good.
I love the rail armor it allows such crazy stuff like extra long jumps invulnerability to spike which just makes speedrunning fun
King Knight: I'm about to end this man's whole career
Just finished my first run of new game plus, definitely the best way to play specter knight's campaign I'm really glad you recommended it.
I do think the will skull was clearly intended as a difficulty supplement given that they removed it from ng+.
In my new game plus, I would speed through plague knights stage with the judgement rush and rail mail
I rarely used the phase locket
A way I would balance the phase locket is that it could still make you invincible but at the same time you can’t damage enemies. Bounce off of them sure but not damage them. For the skull on the other hand is to either reduce the health healed or give you a boost of some kind like increased damage or defensive.
Very interesting video. I never had problems with relics or curios, because I didn't use them that much altogether, especially in Specter of Torment. I like the base moves and opening a list of items in the middle of action kinda wears off the excitement for me, so, yeah. I now understand why some of these could be overpowered for other types of players.
Going for the achievements, I find use out of a number of the curios. I still use the skull to top off if i really need it, since I feel I am already challenging myself with other conditions.
Awesome video! I'm so glad I didn't discover the power of the skeleton in NG+.
Awesome video, def mad me want to play it, i didn't even know about the life meter in the first place
One cure...
THE CHEAT CODE FOR GET HIT ONCE = DEAD.
I’ve tried it myself for each campaign, and I managed to get Shovel Knight at the boss-rush level, while beating both Plague and Specter campaigns. Not only does it require you to take your time and memorize attack patterns while providing difficulty, but it forces you to use almost EVERY relic in your arsenal. I recommend trying it out for you guys, sure it may make you cripple in rage, but it’s a Dark-Souls experience you won’t forget.
Fun fact: I died exactly 1,358 times in Specter of Torment. Plus you get bragging rights, so checkmate... YOU get good, scrub.
I played Specter if Torment on a Wiimote. I think it’s the only game I’ve played that was fast and comfortable while I used it, which I think is a really impressive feat.
I think it'll be interesting to see what items king knight has when that finally comes out. That lifesteal hammer thing seemed pretty broken to me.
Lifesteal hammer turned out to be pretty hard to use, adding the risk/reward element all of the items should have.
Before watching these videos, I never thought the will skull/phase lockets could break the game like that, honestly, I didnt understood this in the first time, because I never used phase lockets to break the game and always tried to create strategies with the sub weapons (not by implying house rules lol), but it was just my personal experience
I think the point of 'Don't like it don't use it' is just that you aren't FORCED to use that thing all the time... You're still a player and help yourself have a better or worse experience. You act like you can't NOT use op items all the time and that's just... wrong.
Of course, only having the OPTION is sad, bad design and the game being unbalanced nonetheless. It just seems as if you're forced by the game to use the phase locket or mr. bones all the time, and you're not. That's why there's challenge runs or individual playstyles, that people do so that the game is as enjoyable as possible for them.
Okay, further on, I don't at all say that you shouldn't criticize it, I stated that above. It's completely worth doing that. Yet I personally think, that the intended experience of items was to boost people that either want to get creative and with that crush stages and bosses, or help struggling players. I myself, and I know many other people as well like me, just never even really got into using items except in bonus stages or the refights in challenge mode. Simply because it didn't feel necessary and because the difficulty was very nice as is. They did seem like playthings you don't really need but could use for fun. I mean, it's unclear how the majority of people took it, but that's what I can say from my point of view.
Also, another reason why the devs might have made the decision (and a GOOD decision) to keep all the items they have just like that in the main campaign as well as NG+, is that in the achievements section of the game, there are plenty of awesome challenges to be done that include not using items. A very nice balance overall imo for all players to play the game normally with all items available, and for people with more skill and patience there's NG+ with some added difficulty and achievement challenges for taking away some things that can be played in an unbalanced way in the main campaign. Which doesn't really happen to everyone at all again.
What do you think about this? I hope I could give some new perspective or smth
You are correct that the phase locket is a bit op. I think it was intended that you'd use the locket to dodge an attack here and there that you don't know how to dodge, or help you if you're not that great at avoiding spikes. That's how I used it, at least. After playing it a few times, I stopped using the locket entirely. I don't think spamming it was ever the intent. It really should've had a higher cost. Also, it should've prevented you from damaging enemies. You ARE phasing through them, after all!
AVGN once said that the design of Castlevania was to make using items during the level appealing, but that smart players would save their hearts for the bosses because the right item can cripple a boss who was normally very difficult with the whip. The same seems to be true with Shovel Knight, but the checkpoints right before the bosses ensure that no matter how many items you used getting to the boss youre only 1 death away from a full magic bar to use on the boss. With Specter and Plague Knight this is even more of a problem, because they both have ways to regain their items during the boss fight while Shovel at least has to use them wisely.
If the boss checkpoint was removed in favor of one that was say halfway through the level in NG+ then item use would feel more fair for Shovel who would have to conserve items in level and Specter who would have to play well to get to the boss with significant darkness. Plague would still have unlimited though...
That's an interesting solution, I had never considered how the location of checkpoints effects the power level of items
For myself, I just found Specter Knight's regular gameplay to be so fun I never really bothered with the items. It's interesting to hear the perspective of someone who did
I never thought of using items until entrantress when I used the lantern shield when realizing she was very projectile based and it let me hit her when she was beneath the platform
I never used the phase locket in my first shovel knight playthrough i only used it for the level that needed it but then i just like threw it away.
I loved Specter Knight campaing, new game + was definitely a blast and the fight against the dark knight was a pain in the *ss
I definitely agree with what you say about the items, everything should have their own niche, not much to say, very good and enjoyable video overall (i watched it entirely)
Seriously, I loved this mode because it turned the whole game into a speedrun, and it's clear the devs had this in mind. The Rail Mail platforms perfectly in the explodatorium and the raiment of risk also allows for a fun, yet challenging way of subverting the main restriction of NG+. And yes, judgement rush is the most overpowered curio for this mode. I actually never ended up using the skeletal sentry because I a) understood it was a high-level item that required the training I didn't feel like putting in, and b) I was more comfortable using items such as judgement rush, chronos coin, and feather that I both enjoy more and think are ultimately more useful. BTW, I think the hardest boss in specter knight NG+ is the revamped black knight near the end of the game. I spent an hour on that guy and ultimately beat him only through patience and memorizing his move set because nothing else really worked on him. Actually, it felt just like Dark Souls.
interesting, in NG+ I had so much more trouble with the Enchantress than any other Specty boss
you know how i figured out mr bones is OP? i accidentally (not realizing it was equipped) threw him out against polar knight just as he ran past me and before i can even blink i get the damage-less boss fight achievement. it shredded him in less than 5 seconds. even outside of NG+, specter was the character i experimented the most with and learned some surprisingly useful items for scenarios. for example, bounding soul and the spider scythe can both collect money bags, and are safer than the risk involved jumping into a pit after them. the different angles and ability to stick to surfaces give them unique uses.
It’s like with the exp. share in the new Pokémon. Sure you can turn it off, but it shouldn’t be there in the first place. It renders most the grinding, team building, etc. pointless, because you know you don’t have to do it to progress and you’re essentially just wasting time. Time and effort spent on a game should feel productive in some way, not like some self imposed chore.
To be fair, grinding in Pokemon is God awful. Because NONE of the wild Pokemon will give nearly enough exp unless you're fighting Audinos or chanseys. It makes grinding a pain in the ass. The new exp share would be dumb if Pokemon was good at level curves
I mean, with Pokemon, the EXP Share is overall a moot point anyway because today's Pokemon games are easy even without the EXP Share. If you're an experienced Pokemon player that knows all the weaknesses and strengths to each type, that knowledge alone makes the game really easy.
To me, the EXP Share is overkill so it really doesn't matter if it's on or off.
Wow I actually never got the skeleton item when I played through the game and didn’t even know it was a thing until now.
to be fair you can leave the skeletal sentry out and use other curios at the same time, so while it me be broken, at least it doesn't discourage using other curios at the same time.
Idk, for how I played, I found Specter Knight's homing slash (not the curio, just his jumping attack) to be the most OP lol just spam them bosses. Plague Knight had the toughest campaign for me as well as the more balanced items imo. Great vid, always enjoy your Shovel Knight stuff.
While the Will Skull and the Phase locket are absolutely fucking busted and trivialize challenge (Mister Bonez to a lesser degree), All the items have the potential to just break levels. One of Shovel Knight's most obvious inspirations is the Mega Man series, and a huge part of those games is utilizing the right abilities from certain bosses on others to dunk on them. One of the biggest draws to those games was figuring out the correct setup to cheese bosses and your real skill came from maneuvering the stages in the most effective way possible. I was actually surprised you weren't more upset with the items you get from Propeller Knight in Shovel Knight and Specty's campaigns (and the Knuckles) as they make platforming in most cases an absolute cakewalk.
Also, Horace's minigame with optimal Judgement Rush use is peak Specter Knight gameplay.
Specter Knights new game plus has you be quick and efficient or die
6:33 um... excuse me? best curio in the game hands down.
Videos like these make me think people dont play video games to have fun
These Shovel Knight videos are so good!
I wish that combining your health and magic was a thing for all campaigns, at LEAST via cheat code.
I know this will sound weird, but Phase Locket is the safe option overall, right, no discussion on that, but it is not the optimal. For example, against Specter Knight, I realized that using the Fire Wand is even more broken against Specter and the Enchantress Phase 1 than just playing defensively. The Flying Dagger can really be useful for the Phase 2. The Chaos Orb works like a charm on the Plague Knight battle. Yes, we have a broken item, but it our responsability to discover that other items are broken on the right scenarios.
I never really used the sentry. I use the bounding soul a lot because it usually hits eventually. I did spam the will skull though.
Edit: the barrier lantern is OP if you ask me.
This is a case where I agree with the video on alot of things but I have to admit that Shovel Knight might not have been as popular if there wasn't an OP option that people could use to blow through things. Accessibility is an important feature for a game to be popular.
I know Hyve Minds repeatedly says that ''if it's not good don't use it'' isn't a good argument but gamers have a long history of just cutting out parts of games they don't like even though another gamer might like said part of the game. Competitive Smash Bros Melee players (the largest group of people that currently play) cut out all the items and most of the stages cause they are all break the way they want to play the game; However without these things the game wouldn't be near as popular in the first place since the large majority of casual players like them (casual players being the larger initial player base). Pokemon Nuzlock challenges are self imposed rules that remove large chunks of the game to add challenge and 'fun' for the more experienced players. This isn't even a case like a Fighting Game or RTS where one character is too overpowered an limits the rest of the roster like "Jo Jo's Bizzare Adventure Heritage for the Future" where Petshop has to be straight up banned to make the game any fun for either player. This is a single player game where it's up to you how to play it and use any of the items at your disposal. I could come up with more examples like prefering bad weapons in Dark Souls or not using any boss weapons but the Mega Buster.... actually Megaman is the perfect example of this game design which I think the Shovel Knight Devs may have copied purposefully.
Hear me out here... Megaman bosses have a weakness weapon that makes them a joke or you can just fight them your own way with the other weapons. Weakness weapons lock the enemy boss in stun and make them 'not fun' using Hyve Mind's standards. At the same time I know alot of people won't play through Megaman if they can't use the Weakness Weapons. Is it 'Bad Design'? Maybe it is. Is it design that makes a popular and successful game? Yes it is for better or for worse.
...All this being said I think the Phase Locket is a bit of a lazy way to make an Overpowered weapon and guiding players to more creative solutions should generally be the goal instead of doing as I mentioned. I do think all the criticism's of the items are valid yet still mostly subjective which is why so many people are allowed to dissagree with you saying the OP items, while flawed for many players, are still something that makes the game overall more successful.
5:31 Get Over it with Specter of Torment
I feel like you're missing the point. Items may be powerful, but just because *you* have an easy time using and abusing them to get ahead, doesn't mean everybody does. When playing Specter of Torment I almost never used the will skull. I had other curios I would've rather used my darkness on, and I frequently got manhandled whenever I tried using it for a quick heal, only ever able to make use of it in pauses in the action, and I never found the skull sentry particularly useful, because I had troubles lining it up sufficiently, and a lot of it would go to waste unless I was fighting a particular boss. Rather, I frequently used the dread talon especially on bosses, because I frequently found myself in close proximity to my enemies a lot, and judgement rush was another go-to when I got it, and trashed the game using them. The phase locket is somewhat the same, although it was still a really good item, I primarily excused it because of it's significance to the overall story of shovel knight, and the poetic nature of it's use, but all that doesn't negate your points on it's balance any. Point is, just because you made devastating usage of it doesn't mean it did that for everyone, and what's more having items of that nature makes the game more accessible, where otherwise it would be frustratingly hard for someone who's far more casual or less skilled than you or I.
I think that unobtrusive difficulty modes, the kind that you don't need to actively select, should feel slightly cheesy and suboptimal, perhaps involving abnormal gameplay. Say, waiting for platforms instead of taking risky jumps; looking for environment clues in a puzzle game. In Terraria, you can beat some bosses easily, even the one meant to be near-unbeatable, with complex machines and arenas- it's just a matter of how low you're willing to stoop. I've also heard about a boss in Dark Souls that you can shoot with arrows before the boss fight, which seems like a great idea. Thinking about it more, the phase locket seems like less of a problem: at least to me, it didn't feel like an obvious route to spam the phase locket, but I imagine a player turning to it when very frustrated and looking for possibilities.
Admittedly, it didn't occur to me to use the items that often at all, so I might be a bad example. Or maybe you're meant to not see to use them until you need to, in which case I'm a perfect example.
I happen to use all items when playing shovel knight and mostly the vat when i got it on plague knight
Well, this video was fun to watch. If I ever buy this game and the expansions, I'll go unusing these,.
Specty's ng+ was the only one i beat. It was by far the most enjoyable. Plus, his campaign and basic moveset are by far the best anyway. I will admit, I discovered that using the apparel that let's you break checkpoints to regen darkness does break this mode. It makes it super easy and ruins the satisfaction.
Brooke is my favorite straw hat crew member❤️
what if SoH NG+ had no refill of mana whatsoever throughout the level? And Phase Locket costs ya 25% of your maximum mana? And Dust Knuckles had a cooldown of 5 seconds?
My one big problem with the original Shovel Knight was that the Lich Yard was way too close to the beginning of the game. It could have worked much better as a wrecked town near the end of the game (much like Old Kasuto in Zelda 2). Specter Knight would be built up from the beginning of the game and serve as a last big challenge before the Tower of Fate (much like Death in Castlevania) in a legitimately difficult boss fight. The phase locket's overpowered nature would be at the very end of the game, leaving it more like the -infini- propeller dagger; only game-breaking at the end, when the difficulty ramps up as well.
I love specter knight, I have played it over 12 times and beatenNew game plus at least once the story is amazing and I love specter Knight abilities and the ghostly garb is just sick.
"NG+ is the hardest gaming experience of my life."
I just did the "Checkpointless, No Will No Darkness Upgrade and 60000 Gold Ending" Run and let me tell you, it's nightmare fuel.
Personally yeah I can see that the skeleton sentry is really good and yeah if I have it I'll use it but the immediate problem I have with the Enchantress fight is that the blocks can be destroyed by both her and you meaning that part of your literal ground is dependent on RNG I fucking hate that. Especially when this campaign encourages you to jump around to gain that air dash/slash. This was the fight where I found a use for the bouncy orbs. because when a foe stands still and then darts around the screen lasting like 10 or more seconds is good. also I liked using the barrier more than the skull because of the blocks that attack you before the enchantress encounter.
I can’t imagine fighting a boss and saying: “Man, I wish I couldn’t use this technique to beat the boss,” as I’m using said technique, and then proceeding to use said technique for the rest of the game. I get your point, but with so many items in your possession, it’s ultimately up to the player to make a strategy that they deem both effective AND fun. Despite your solid arguments, I still think it comes down to “You don’t like it, don’t use it.”
Im planning to not even use the phase locket on my first playthrough when I get it soon
Zachary Walker I rarely ever use it when I play.
I cant believe I never once even attempted to use the skeleton on bosses. I think I might be daft.
Specter knight doesn't die... he just gives up
I think the best way to play shovel knight is to play it like a speedrunner find the fastest way to beat a level with the items. The feats recommend that you learn to speedrun beating the game in less than an 1h and 30min needs you to use you're items that does not slow you down like in shovel of hope chaos orb the bosses get good at platforming the locket is too slow.
I have played through specter of torment normal 2 times and ng+ 2 times and i never onced used the skeleton sniper because i thought it was a bad weapon. I was wrong
Easily the best experience for this game is no curios. I’m playing through all campaigns this way and it’s so fun and challenging. I’d recommend to any decently experienced shovel knight player
It is sad that the enchantress is harder than the actual final boss
It's funny, I've almost finished completing everything to do in the game, and I don't think I've ever used the Phase Locket outside of the one level designed for it. I'm not saying this to disagree or anything, but I never considered it at all. The same goes for the Skeletal Sentry, until I got to halfway through Specter Knight's NG+.
a good argument against the idea that optional = uncritiquable; all content is intended content. yacht club games didn't put the phase locket, will skull and skeletal sentry in because they wanted them to go unused. they put those in under the impression someone was going to see them, use them, and have an opinion on them.
additionally, by their same logic, imagine a competitive fighting game got a new character added as DLC, and that character was overpowered. are the people who play the competitive fighting game NOT allowed to critique that character for being unbalanced, simply because the character is DLC, and therefore optional?
or even; you didn't have to buy shovel knight if you didn't like shovel knight. by their logic, you aren't allowed to critique ANY elements of shovel knight, period. which is completely nonsensical reasoning.
I still completely disagree with the combined darkness/will meter as a required feature. In a game that plays up the player's choice of tools, to lock everybody into this feels like it's a totally mixed signal. Had it been a separate costume or equippable, or just an _option,_ I very likely would love it because it doesn't totally force me to change my entire playstyle. That's what a separate experimenting file is for! And "adapt" is exactly what I did in the previous campaigns, for the record. That's why I've beaten this game nearly 100 times since launch! I've done every Feat multiple times, I've learned the best uses for every item in each campaign over time. It is specifically this one thing that draws my ire.
In general I still feel much of Specter loses the design philosophy that made Shovel Knight so captivating, all in the name of selling the game individually. I respect that decision - after all, Plague Knight LOST them money! - but I don't care for the product that came out as a result, at least not nearly as much as the two campaigns that came before it.
So what exactly would you say is the design philosophy that specter knight lost?
Well, for one, Shovel and Plague Knight were each based around a relatively basic character who's _enhanced_ by the choices given to him, rather than a character whose design explicitly tosses away those abilities (first in the base game and then especially so in the NG+). There's a lot more than that but I'm typing this sporadically at work so I'm sure I'm missing some points I'd otherwise bring up, forgive me.
I think we have a fundamental disagreement about items and their balance, really, that's what it comes down to. What's funny is I used to agree with you before I did the Feats and whatnot! Your personal use of the Phase Locket defined your playthroughs because of dominant strategy, and in many ways that's what defined my early playthroughs too. I strongly suggest you try to do the challenges, the boss challenges especially. Those are what really changed my opinion about the items and what brought the game from "yeah I really like it" to "goddamn, this is a masterclass in design" and had me playing it over and over again, sometimes casually blowing through it multiple times a day.
@Golden Bolt: Regarding judging item balance based off of its feats, that ignores a very large part of the overall game's item balance. If you're going for the feats and going through the boss challenge mode then yes, item balance becomes less of on an issue, but that doesn't change the fact that item balance is very poor in the base game. Both bad and good item balance exist in Shovel Knight; the good doesn't excuse or erase the bad, especially because the bad item balance exists in the portion of the game that most players will be interacting with.
Likewise, most players only experience the most unbalanced part of Specter Knight, considering how few likely even started New Game+! 😉
Oh 100%, it wouldn't be fair to say that Specter Knight's item balance is 'good' either just because of New Game +. I think we can all agree that Shovel Knight can be very well balanced in a few places, but really poorly balanced in a whole lot of places too.
not gonna lie,but yeah ik the fusioned will and darkness darin down,but when they reach it's end,you can't die(unless you'll be damaged),but there are still curios that are still usable even it's ALL EMPTY like the scythe boomberang or more alike (if no,then it's just me lol)
i wonder
If the will skull wasnt removed
What would it do
I have a few possibilities
Because it refills WILL and in new game + will is thanos snapped out of existence so the skull would just use darkness and give nothing
OR
it would use an amount of darkness and give back an equal amount of darkness and cancel it out or give a grater amount
So basically infinite healing
What do you think
Hope king knight has something like this in his NG+
Ha, I'm terrible at knowing when to use items, so I barely used the phase locket and the sentry. Seriously, I only beat the enchantress on Specter's NG+ without curios because I didn't know what curios to use.
Nice, please make more shovel knight videos
Thx for the protip, ive never even tried the doot boy
Cool, another Tony Hawk Pro Gamertelling us how to git good. Cool beans, bro.
Specter Knight to be the next Straw Hat?! I'm digging your analysis videos! Have you considered doing them for a different game?
Totally! Just trying to get as much mileage out of those two popular shovel knight videos as I can. Kingdom Hearts might be next in line for an analysis.
Not the Bees Now I'm really excited! That's a series I'm well versed in!
well let's hope they fix this in king of cards
For Specter knight new game plus I didn’t really use items at all lol, not cuz I limited myself but cuz it takes away life. Also I never knew skely boi was so op
I love the secret final boss
didn't even use phase locket that much in shovel knight, but I see what you mean