Having to explain to my partner when she walks in the room why I'm listening to Anna talking about coils was something I don't want to do again . Great informative video 👍
I swapped my Fox DPX2 for an Ohlins Coil - made all the difference in the world. I ride trails, like the wheels on the ground ('cause I'm old, almost 65), and the Ohlins Coil fit my riding style much better and was so much easier to set up. So it was heavier - I just need to lose a pound. btw, I ride a 2012 Kona Satori which is heavily retro-fitted with newer components.
Yep - for most people have high/low speed compression and high/low speed rebound is a bit much, so many variables. And then having to also thing about tokens for the air chamber on top of that.
Sorry but I have to disagree on the statement that coil shocks require the same amount of servicing as air shocks. I don't know about fox shocks but RS coil shocks require service only once every 200 hrs of riding, whereas air shocks need it at 50 hrs. Personally, I only service my coil shock if it feels too sluggish or if the adjustments aren't working properly.
50hrs on lets say super deluxe air its more like basic maitanance than service to me, its done in few minutes. But I servicing damping on both coil or air its same interval if im not mistaken. I mean I do air can "service" more often then adjusting my rd or chaning pads or whatever. But you need to service your dapming in shock atleast once a year, so its more or less the same atleast for me.
You are correct, the reality is a high quality coil shock can handle years of use without servicing, pretty much what you said, send it in if you feel any performance drop
#AskGMBNTech Thanks for all the useful tech tips, Doddie & Anna! My question: rather than just slinging away old bike maintenance rags, and just contributing to more and more landfill, is it possible to wash them successfully, and if so, how? I don't think I dare use the family washing machine...
You got me thinking. Coil shocks still have a shaft. Why is there not a sag/travel setting o-ring there? My old Fifth Element's bottom out bumper moved freely so I just used that. Thanks.
@@gmbntech cause it's the only combination I've never owned till now (even have a Kashima coil shock) I have to say yes. No tbh it really depends on the frame. My DH bike would look bad with air and my enduro nicer with coil (but it doesn't work with coil)
I have to disagree with his statement about coil forks lacking support. I really struggled with brake dive on my Fox 36 - increasing pressure or winding on more compression damping would just make it overly harsh, but to get the suppleness I wanted the fork would feel quite divey. I stuck a Vorsprung coil conversion in there and it completely changed the fork - it's even more supple, but has bags of midstroke support, too. This is inherent to a linear spring rate vs the progression of air. Coils do lack support at the end of the stroke, but Vorsprung's hydraulic bottom-out takes care of that.
Same set up here 36 with smashpot, loads more support than air, all air forks have a pressure dip in the mid stroke, even the best (Secus and Luftkappe) the have more mid stroke than any other air spring and even they have a dip, this channels information has as much truth as the sun newspapers article's. GMBN offer misinformation all the time, to mostly people that have no idea its mostly BS, its disgusting really
Is that Tim that set up Mojo Suspension wayyyyy back in the day, if so he build me am extended shock for my Orange X4 (UFO), top bloke that really knows his stuff👍
On the last one I'm not an expert but shocks, the coil big ones in downhill bikes in particular must influence the center of gravity on the bike if the frame is designed higher or lower. Perhaps marginal differences but I don't think it's the same
Great video Anna, it seems like most mountain bike components are made for people weighing around 58 to 80 kilos, I weigh 104 kilos, and was wondering if I would benefit from a costume tune shock?
air shocks have more sealing surfaces and therefore generate more heat, which on high speed DH creates more dampening fade, air expands with heat and the spring rate gets stiffer while the oil gets thinner. So air shocks won't perform the same at the top as the bottom of a DH run. That's why coil on DH is more common. How was that not covered?
Because the guy did answer question for 20 minutes like a pro and didn't had 15 minutes to think about a single Question and then go to wikipedia like you did. If you have any other question just let me know!
@@th_js Didn't know that at the start as came from YT and Giant. Even designed a linkage for the Giant trance when it was released but they where not willing to take it up as their was a patent crosssover.
As said there are progressive springs, but you can also combine two springs with different rates and play around with bump stops. Some RST forks even used to be built this way at the factory
What about elastomers instead of a metal spring? OR as an addition so that these could be added to increase the weight bearing of the spring for different riders (avoid having to get specific springs for a weight)
#AskGMBNTech Hey guys. My fox 36 factory airchamber is loosing high amounts of pressure. Can I fix this by installing a new air shaft or could this be something different? I feel comfortable installing a new air shaft
Surely it would be possible to set up the suspension linkage design to make an air shock like a coil spring? For example more mechanical advantage as the air shock compresses? And indeed if that could be adjusted by the rider between linear and progressive characteristics even better. Best of both worlds?
At top level racing riding a coil hard, at speed, will be just as ‘chattery’ as an air shock for your average weekend rider going half the speed. Where average riders tend to go wrong is they look to technology to make the ride easier as a means to make up for a lack of skill, but you’d be better off investing that time and money into enhancing riding ability. If you want to go fast & plow, first go slow and learn how to throw the bike around. Once the skill is there, then lean on the tech to get as much of a marginal gain as possible.
For shocks I think the challenging piece is that they are charged with nitrogen, so you have to have the right tools/knowledge to do that. I just stripped and serviced my 34 Step Cast with a GRIP damper and it was pretty simple if you have the right tools.
#askgmbntech Hi, just want to know the ideal rotor size for trail/enduro/semi downhill riding. And which should have the bigger rotor the front or the rear? Thanks
#AskGMBNTech hi i was wondering would it be ok to use a shock which has the same eye to eye but would increase my travel by about 40mm .If this wouldn't work what would be a good number to increase my rear travel by.
#Askgmnntech I kindly need you to upload a video regarding how to service Manitou Dorado Pro. I can’t find any informative video on RUclips to service that fork.
#askgmbntech Hello I’m in the state of Illinois in the US. The closest suspension service center is in Minnesota (I have Rock Shox). I was recently approached about buying a local bike shop. How would someone go about being certified to service suspension for Rock Shox and Fox? If I were to buy the bike shop I think being able to service suspension components would set me apart from other local shops.
I would like to #askgmbntecha question. I have a trail virtually outside my door. It’s not terribly challenging but if I’m creative I can get a fun 40-50 minute ride. The problem I face is that because the soil here is clay based when it rains the minute you get of the pavement or as you say Tarmac the tires pack solid and your ride is over. I’ve asked other riders and my local bike shop but it’s as if nobody knows what I’m talking about. Is there anything I can do to remedy this? Thanks.
Its unlikely Charlie, riding wet clay-like soil tends to have this effect on most bikes, its an issue we see in parts of southern California on the rare occasion it does rain. Unless you have tons of clearance, it’s just going to pack right up on the frame and the wheels will stick :(
I'm more of a hardtail mountainbiker. That said, I might be needing a full-suspension MTB when I get older. Learning the basics of rear suspension in advance isn't a bad idea at all, eh! Lots'a love, cheers, & Mabuhay, from tropical Philippines! #KeepBiking
This is just the vid I needed to watch. My coil spring has lost its values and I have no idea what rate it runs at, came with a second hand frame. I'll be looking now for the relevant info, cheers guys.
#askgmbntech Why on a 1x system are all the gears in the back? (Why not have the 12 speed cogs in the front and a single rear) Putting them up front would reduce unsprung mass
That's why a gearbox is the future. However, with a traditional derailleur, the derailleur would have to be above the chainrings/casette, which would not work for obvious reasons. The only way to get around that is to have a separate chain tensioner that also takes the load, instead of the derailleur. Would be physically almost impossible to make work with normal off-the-shelf stuff, and would be very messy. Let's just wait for the gearbox revolution.
#askgmbntech I am wondering in the real world is upgrading a good air fork (Lyrik ultimate etc) with a ACS3 coil spring, a worth while upgrade? I'm thinking it would give the best of both worlds.
How do we know the bike is designed around coil or air shock? As there are some bike model comes with an air or coil shock option. Lets say if the bike was designed around an air shock & not "suitable" for a coil shock setup..but the rider rides better or prefer the coil setup over the air setup? Just these things bugging my brain cells..🤣🤣
My understanding is that it is more about the leverage rate rather than a bike being "designed for" an air or coil shock. Air shocks are naturally more inclined to ramp up their effective rate as they compress (they get harder to compress a given travel value the more they are compressed). A frame that works well with an air shock because of the natural bottom out resistance of an air spring, could bottom out too easily with a coil which are either linear or only mildly progressive (depending on spring).
Isn’t the point of a custom tune to get your bike setup by somebody who actually knows what they’re doing? Because lol I sure don’t know what I’m doing when it comes to setting up suspension
Everyone forgetting that foxes are orange?
Having to explain to my partner when she walks in the room why I'm listening to Anna talking about coils was something I don't want to do again . Great informative video 👍
😂
Brilliant
Just show the video
"Oh it's one of your bike things"
I swapped my Fox DPX2 for an Ohlins Coil - made all the difference in the world. I ride trails, like the wheels on the ground ('cause I'm old, almost 65), and the Ohlins Coil fit my riding style much better and was so much easier to set up. So it was heavier - I just need to lose a pound. btw, I ride a 2012 Kona Satori which is heavily retro-fitted with newer components.
Would you say it was easier to set up because well, there’s less you can even set up?…
Yep - for most people have high/low speed compression and high/low speed rebound is a bit much, so many variables. And then having to also thing about tokens for the air chamber on top of that.
There is alot more money in servicing and repairing Air Shocks, hence the excellent way he avoided answering the coil vers air question
Exactly
It's way easier to set up a noobie with air.
Sorry but I have to disagree on the statement that coil shocks require the same amount of servicing as air shocks. I don't know about fox shocks but RS coil shocks require service only once every 200 hrs of riding, whereas air shocks need it at 50 hrs. Personally, I only service my coil shock if it feels too sluggish or if the adjustments aren't working properly.
50hrs on lets say super deluxe air its more like basic maitanance than service to me, its done in few minutes. But I servicing damping on both coil or air its same interval if im not mistaken. I mean I do air can "service" more often then adjusting my rd or chaning pads or whatever. But you need to service your dapming in shock atleast once a year, so its more or less the same atleast for me.
You are correct, the reality is a high quality coil shock can handle years of use without servicing, pretty much what you said, send it in if you feel any performance drop
Anna delivers yet again! 🤘🏼
Tradition! 🙌
Could you make a suspension setup clinic on the Global Bike Festival? That would be great.
Hey Christian! We've got Calvin Jones from Park Tool coming over so he'll definitely be able to help with any suspension tuning! 👍
@@gmbntech Maybe also a topic during riding sessions. I often can‘t tell if it‘s the suspension or just my bad riding.
#AskGMBNTech Thanks for all the useful tech tips, Doddie & Anna! My question: rather than just slinging away old bike maintenance rags, and just contributing to more and more landfill, is it possible to wash them successfully, and if so, how? I don't think I dare use the family washing machine...
I wash them by hand, very warm water, cheapest white soap almost 90% dirt come off
You got me thinking. Coil shocks still have a shaft. Why is there not a sag/travel setting o-ring there? My old Fifth Element's bottom out bumper moved freely so I just used that. Thanks.
Difficult to get a measuring instrument inside the spring ? Easier to measure collar to collar, subtract the difference from the stroke length
The main reason I like coil shocks: they look way nicer than air shocks in my opinion
Well that's a amazing reason to buy one 🤦♂️
They do look great but can you really beat a Kashima coated air shock?
@@gmbntech cause it's the only combination I've never owned till now (even have a Kashima coil shock) I have to say yes. No tbh it really depends on the frame. My DH bike would look bad with air and my enduro nicer with coil (but it doesn't work with coil)
Looks cool and foxes are orange
Fox orange is awesome!
It pops so nicely!
I have to disagree with his statement about coil forks lacking support. I really struggled with brake dive on my Fox 36 - increasing pressure or winding on more compression damping would just make it overly harsh, but to get the suppleness I wanted the fork would feel quite divey. I stuck a Vorsprung coil conversion in there and it completely changed the fork - it's even more supple, but has bags of midstroke support, too. This is inherent to a linear spring rate vs the progression of air. Coils do lack support at the end of the stroke, but Vorsprung's hydraulic bottom-out takes care of that.
Same set up here 36 with smashpot, loads more support than air, all air forks have a pressure dip in the mid stroke, even the best (Secus and Luftkappe) the have more mid stroke than any other air spring and even they have a dip, this channels information has as much truth as the sun newspapers article's. GMBN offer misinformation all the time, to mostly people that have no idea its mostly BS, its disgusting really
The orange color is actually the fox heritage color from the 70s I believe, when bob fox first started the suspension company
Is that Tim that set up Mojo Suspension wayyyyy back in the day, if so he build me am extended shock for my Orange X4 (UFO), top bloke that really knows his stuff👍
Interesting RC truck in the background.
Good spot! 😉
On the last one I'm not an expert but shocks, the coil big ones in downhill bikes in particular must influence the center of gravity on the bike if the frame is designed higher or lower. Perhaps marginal differences but I don't think it's the same
Are they not orange because that’s the color foxes are? Thought that would be the simple answer.
Don't know why he stresses it's such a minimal upgrade. For me going from air to coil is a massive upgrade. Very noticeable.
If you think its a massive upgrade then you had the air setup wrong..
Great video Anna, it seems like most mountain bike components are made for people weighing around 58 to 80 kilos, I weigh 104 kilos, and was wondering if I would benefit from a costume tune shock?
I'm around the same weight, would like to know the answer to that as well 👍
Definitely. You'd benefit more from coil than most people.
air shocks have more sealing surfaces and therefore generate more heat, which on high speed DH creates more dampening fade, air expands with heat and the spring rate gets stiffer while the oil gets thinner. So air shocks won't perform the same at the top as the bottom of a DH run. That's why coil on DH is more common. How was that not covered?
Because the guy did answer question for 20 minutes like a pro and didn't had 15 minutes to think about a single Question and then go to wikipedia like you did.
If you have any other question just let me know!
@@IIISentorIIIlast question... why are you a dbag?
Learnt something new again!! Thank You Anna, stunning content 💯💯👌
That's amazing! Thanks for the support! We're stoked to see that you're loving the content! 🙌
Coil is better but not on Specialized as the shock bodies can't take the frame loadings.
Just don't ride Specialized.
@@th_js Didn't know that at the start as came from YT and Giant. Even designed a linkage for the Giant trance when it was released but they where not willing to take it up as their was a patent crosssover.
#AskGmbn AskGmbnTech
I have a question. Is it possible to make a coil shock more progressive?
Get a progressive spring, e.g., MRP or Cane Creek.
I guess if the spring coil diameter increased from one end to another, yes
As said there are progressive springs, but you can also combine two springs with different rates and play around with bump stops. Some RST forks even used to be built this way at the factory
@@Pienimusta yeah.. wrote the question before the end of the video. Will go and check them out :)
What about elastomers instead of a metal spring? OR as an addition so that these could be added to increase the weight bearing of the spring for different riders (avoid having to get specific springs for a weight)
We had that in the 90s. Didn‘t work that well.
@@chrisridesbicycles No kiddin'. My old mid 90's Gary Fisher has those. It's still running as a commuter. For mountain biking; no thanks.
@@davidmalakoff147 Can you still get spare elastomers?
@@chrisridesbicycles Couldn't say. Never tried to find them. I think the forks are RST's?
#AskGMBNTech Hey guys. My fox 36 factory airchamber is loosing high amounts of pressure. Can I fix this by installing a new air shaft or could this be something different? I feel comfortable installing a new air shaft
Surely it would be possible to set up the suspension linkage design to make an air shock like a coil spring? For example more mechanical advantage as the air shock compresses? And indeed if that could be adjusted by the rider between linear and progressive characteristics even better. Best of both worlds?
Air will never be as good as coil due to the friction in the seals. When springs become extremely light then air wont compete.
It's not the linearity you want from coil. It's the small pump sensitivity and overall smoother feel that everybody wants.
At top level racing riding a coil hard, at speed, will be just as ‘chattery’ as an air shock for your average weekend rider going half the speed. Where average riders tend to go wrong is they look to technology to make the ride easier as a means to make up for a lack of skill, but you’d be better off investing that time and money into enhancing riding ability. If you want to go fast & plow, first go slow and learn how to throw the bike around. Once the skill is there, then lean on the tech to get as much of a marginal gain as possible.
If a home mechanic is interested in working on suspension and doing service, how does one get certified? Thanks
For shocks I think the challenging piece is that they are charged with nitrogen, so you have to have the right tools/knowledge to do that. I just stripped and serviced my 34 Step Cast with a GRIP damper and it was pretty simple if you have the right tools.
Thought that I would not be very interested in the topic; but, I was wrong. Nice job Anna and Tim!
Thanks for watching, Bill! Glad you enjoyed it! 👍
#askgmbntech Hi, just want to know the ideal rotor size for trail/enduro/semi downhill riding. And which should have the bigger rotor the front or the rear? Thanks
180-220mm. Don't forget to have a fork that can actually handle torque rated for 180-220mm rotors because an XC fork will bend and break eventually.
#AskGMBNTech hi i was wondering would it be ok to use a shock which has the same eye to eye but would increase my travel by about 40mm .If this wouldn't work what would be a good number to increase my rear travel by.
1:02 yea, so no
#Askgmnntech I kindly need you to upload a video regarding how to service Manitou Dorado Pro. I can’t find any informative video on RUclips to service that fork.
#askgmbntech Hello I’m in the state of Illinois in the US. The closest suspension service center is in Minnesota (I have Rock Shox). I was recently approached about buying a local bike shop. How would someone go about being certified to service suspension for Rock Shox and Fox? If I were to buy the bike shop I think being able to service suspension components would set me apart from other local shops.
I would like to #askgmbntecha question. I have a trail virtually outside my door. It’s not terribly challenging but if I’m creative I can get a fun 40-50 minute ride. The problem I face is that because the soil here is clay based when it rains the minute you get of the pavement or as you say Tarmac the tires pack solid and your ride is over. I’ve asked other riders and my local bike shop but it’s as if nobody knows what I’m talking about. Is there anything I can do to remedy this? Thanks.
Its unlikely Charlie, riding wet clay-like soil tends to have this effect on most bikes, its an issue we see in parts of southern California on the rare occasion it does rain. Unless you have tons of clearance, it’s just going to pack right up on the frame and the wheels will stick :(
@@Wabit01 Thanks. Sadly I can put that one to rest ))
Coil is still better lol
I'm more of a hardtail mountainbiker. That said, I might be needing a full-suspension MTB when I get older. Learning the basics of rear suspension in advance isn't a bad idea at all, eh!
Lots'a love, cheers, & Mabuhay, from tropical Philippines! #KeepBiking
You're right! It's brilliant to develop bike knowledge. It means when you look for a full suspension, you'll be an expert!
@@gmbntech GMBN & GMBN Tech have been good guides to my growth, so to speak, in mountainbiking! I thank you dearly!
Orange is the new Black......Ha !!
Orange pops really well! 😍
This is just the vid I needed to watch.
My coil spring has lost its values and I have no idea what rate it runs at, came with a second hand frame. I'll be looking now for the relevant info, cheers guys.
Happy to help! 🙌 Thanks for the support!
Coil fs
#askgmbntech
Why on a 1x system are all the gears in the back? (Why not have the 12 speed cogs in the front and a single rear) Putting them up front would reduce unsprung mass
That's why a gearbox is the future.
However, with a traditional derailleur, the derailleur would have to be above the chainrings/casette, which would not work for obvious reasons. The only way to get around that is to have a separate chain tensioner that also takes the load, instead of the derailleur. Would be physically almost impossible to make work with normal off-the-shelf stuff, and would be very messy.
Let's just wait for the gearbox revolution.
That will surely require redesigning the front derailleur.
@@yengsabio5315 And frame.. And casette.. And cranks..
@@th_js Indeed!
A downhanging derailleur would be very susceptable to damage in the centre of the bike
#askgmbntech I am wondering in the real world is upgrading a good air fork (Lyrik ultimate etc) with a ACS3 coil spring, a worth while upgrade? I'm thinking it would give the best of both worlds.
If you’re riding chunky terrain yea. If you’re riding flowy trail then no
@@ShoneDaddy I ride both but I do prefer the rough, techy stuff.
How do we know the bike is designed around coil or air shock? As there are some bike model comes with an air or coil shock option.
Lets say if the bike was designed around an air shock & not "suitable" for a coil shock setup..but the rider rides better or prefer the coil setup over the air setup?
Just these things bugging my brain cells..🤣🤣
My understanding is that it is more about the leverage rate rather than a bike being "designed for" an air or coil shock. Air shocks are naturally more inclined to ramp up their effective rate as they compress (they get harder to compress a given travel value the more they are compressed). A frame that works well with an air shock because of the natural bottom out resistance of an air spring, could bottom out too easily with a coil which are either linear or only mildly progressive (depending on spring).
Really missed an opportunity by not asking "For Fox sake, why orange?"
Isn’t the point of a custom tune to get your bike setup by somebody who actually knows what they’re doing? Because lol I sure don’t know what I’m doing when it comes to setting up suspension
#askgmbntech
#askgmbn
So, and where's a link to fox's coil spring calculator ??..
Why orange?!?, that guy probably likes flat black huh???.
First
🥇🙌