i changed my mind about the best curse for my ice shot starter 5 times during this video and ultimately you convinced my my current snipers mark setup is the best for me. xD great vid!
This is very nice @Subtractem, I was advising a few friends of mine who were playing same build as me, manaforged arrows, not dex stacking but Omni. regarding this "issue". My problem was that I was not crit capped, you are in this example. The Benefit, or difference between Snipers Mark and Assassins, is totally different, if you also go from 65% to 95% crit :)
If you are calculating melee range damage as 0 + 70 units it might be a good idea to look into taking Far Shot + Point Blank. Between 0 and 70 units the combination is actually more damage than either one alone. The overall multiplier is also more consistent for damage compared to Far Shot alone(1.04 more at melee going to 1.402 at 70 vs 0.8x at melee going to 1.6). I think its a good addition if you are doing Manaforged and stand at either melee range or inbetween and not at max Far Shot distance. Note: The combination is only better if you are hitting with both outgoing and returning projectiles. This might be why people aren't really looking into it because the combo is usually worse than only one.
This series of build info. has been SO helpful for me, and I've been playing this game for years. I've 40/40'd a few leagues, have a bunch of 100 level characters... and am STILL learning. Thanks for all the guidance, subtractem.
Kinda the same conclusion I had. Something I noticed was when I tried out barrage, now matter what I tried the sniper's mark did a lot more than all the others. I suspect there is something wonky going on with it together with the "barrage has no spread" node.
Can always just use both a curse and mark. Would require an influenced chest or awoke hex touch via Vortex. or in nichè cases a unique that can add a second anoint.
i'd like to point out that using elemental weakness isn't as strong as that if you're using elemental mastery 25% to treat resistance values as inverted.
Melee range is the best anyway since you fire multiple projectiles. At max distance most of your projectiles will not hit your single target so if you stand close enough you can basically make all your projectiles hit the single target twice.
@@subtractem So you are telling me a single target can't be hit by more than one projectile each shot ? Cause I feel a big damage difference when I'm in melee range. Like when I'm doing 5ways and I want to kill the generals fast I just stick to them to kill them quickly, I thought that was because of the "shotgun" effect.
@Seksappeal only one projectile per skill (save for a few niche cases like tornado shot) can hit an enemy. If you have multiple skills firing, one projectile from each of those will hit. Let's say you have 5 projectiles on Ice Shot, Burning Arrow, and Lightning Arrow, and each fire at the same time. The number of projectiles you have for a single target won't matter, you'll always hit only 3. With VC that'll be 6 total hits, because each return will also hit once.
mark effect ascendancy + point blank, get the best of both, and save alot of passives, you will not need the higher dps for clearing trash, you only need it for bossing and super juiced rares. The real power of assasins mark endgame isnt the 40 multi, its the base crit, and the amount of passives, gear mods, you will save by capping your crit, that can be used for other damage sources.
This is very build dependent. You also can't rely on the mark for all enemies. If you're fighting 3-4 hard legion rares at once only one of them can be marked, which is why I like general reliable damage instead of conditional. It's all about what you choose to maximize in your build and your playstyle.
@@subtractem Ofc, that holds true for all situations where you have 3 or 4 hard rares, Having higher single target in my opinion is still better, reducing the number of dangerous juiced rares fast is still more beneficial than chipping away at them all at the same time. All im saying is taking increased crit chance is about the worst stat to invest heavily in for bow builds. And most bow builds have to take crit, there just isnt enough more damage multipliers to play non crit in a viable way. The true power of assassin mark is not in the multi, but in the fact you need much less investment to get to a very high reliable crit number. Even more so if you use a unique chest like in your case, and you can not get crit with attacks on a rare one.
thanks at first i was like wtf is he on about they return to target then i tested it and you where 100% right i just have never noticed since i dont want to want to cuddle bosses i swaped to punishment and droped focal point for wind ward now im a way tankier and do more damage in 99% of situations due to being able to curse everything and my proj actually retuning
are we even sure that normal arrows that return do double hit? i was under the assumption skills and spells cant hit the same target twice from the same cast / attack ? so vengeant cascade would only increase the singletarget dps if we use snipers mark since those forked proj count as a "new" attack/ cast
@@subtractem ok nice thank you for testing it :) now im curios if the crucible node for "ice spear shoots in a circle and returns to you" also can double hit
I am following your build and I love it so much I am blasting in map and recent update with update make the build faster and tanky. I feel bad this build will no longer be available in next league I am left with bow I don’t know how to craft that I craft a normal dex stacking bow following your video but I am stuck now because there is no guide
Not entirely related to this video, but if you aren't using forbidden jewels to get far shot or focal point isn't the best option to skip ricochet entirely, path to farshot and swap mirage archer for awakened chain? I could be missing something here but from my pob calcs you gain roughly 20% more damage and you get +2 additional chains. Am I totally messing up my vengeant cascade or something?
I'm not using mirage archer, I'm using Hypothermia (though either is good, MA is technically 27% more damage vs Hypothermia's 30% and great utility). I have +1 chain on my quiver corruption so, with Ricochet, I have 1 pierce and 2 chains already which makes Awakened Chain total overkill. Also Chain is a Less damage multiplier, so for single target you'd still want to use something else. Focal Point is more damage but, in bossing mode, my build is already over 50M dps and it's just a mapping build anyway so it's total overkill and I'd rather use Ricochet for smoother mapping.
If you don't have any sources of pierce/fork/chain on your manaforge setup and you don't use sniper's mark, could you also use ensnaring arrow on a manaforged setup (assuming gem slots available)? I heard sniper's mark / pierce screws with manaforged ensnaring arrow stacks, but maybe using a different curse opens this up depending on your build and could be something to consider as well.
Vengeant cascade alone breaks ensnaring arrow, it will immediately return. If you aren't using vc you then need to avoid any sources of arrow behavior such as pierce and split from snipers mark.
@@subtractem Just a thought - does the curse on hit rings work with unset rings hexbloom slotted in? Or those are simply effects and not actual skill triggers?
i changed my mind about the best curse for my ice shot starter 5 times during this video and ultimately you convinced my my current snipers mark setup is the best for me. xD great vid!
Now, THIS... was interesting content. Seriously, this was such a great talking point and worth diving into. Thanks for your contributions here!
This is very nice @Subtractem, I was advising a few friends of mine who were playing same build as me, manaforged arrows, not dex stacking but Omni. regarding this "issue".
My problem was that I was not crit capped, you are in this example.
The Benefit, or difference between Snipers Mark and Assassins, is totally different, if you also go from 65% to 95% crit :)
If you are calculating melee range damage as 0 + 70 units it might be a good idea to look into taking Far Shot + Point Blank. Between 0 and 70 units the combination is actually more damage than either one alone.
The overall multiplier is also more consistent for damage compared to Far Shot alone(1.04 more at melee going to 1.402 at 70 vs 0.8x at melee going to 1.6).
I think its a good addition if you are doing Manaforged and stand at either melee range or inbetween and not at max Far Shot distance.
Note: The combination is only better if you are hitting with both outgoing and returning projectiles. This might be why people aren't really looking into it because the combo is usually worse than only one.
This series of build info. has been SO helpful for me, and I've been playing this game for years. I've 40/40'd a few leagues, have a bunch of 100 level characters... and am STILL learning. Thanks for all the guidance, subtractem.
This was great! Loved the info. Making my own ice shot build without a guide, so very relevant info.
Great content as always and surprisingly with this video, a question that i couldn't find the answer to so thank you for answering it, kind of 😊
Kinda the same conclusion I had. Something I noticed was when I tried out barrage, now matter what I tried the sniper's mark did a lot more than all the others. I suspect there is something wonky going on with it together with the "barrage has no spread" node.
if this survives the nerf ill be surprised, dont make 3.22 builds including this anoint imo
PoE ladies and gentlemen. Recommend it to your friends now!
Can always just use both a curse and mark. Would require an influenced chest or awoke hex touch via Vortex.
or in nichè cases a unique that can add a second anoint.
i'd like to point out that using elemental weakness isn't as strong as that if you're using elemental mastery 25% to treat resistance values as inverted.
Pob calculates when you have it so it's exactly as strong as you see when you're testing. I don't use that mastery in my build.
Melee range is the best anyway since you fire multiple projectiles. At max distance most of your projectiles will not hit your single target so if you stand close enough you can basically make all your projectiles hit the single target twice.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Can't shotgun with multiple projectiles
@@subtractem so you telling me when i do shotgun, only one projectile count as hit against uniques ? doesn't feel that way to me at all.
@@subtractem So you are telling me a single target can't be hit by more than one projectile each shot ? Cause I feel a big damage difference when I'm in melee range. Like when I'm doing 5ways and I want to kill the generals fast I just stick to them to kill them quickly, I thought that was because of the "shotgun" effect.
@Seksappeal only one projectile per skill (save for a few niche cases like tornado shot) can hit an enemy. If you have multiple skills firing, one projectile from each of those will hit.
Let's say you have 5 projectiles on Ice Shot, Burning Arrow, and Lightning Arrow, and each fire at the same time. The number of projectiles you have for a single target won't matter, you'll always hit only 3. With VC that'll be 6 total hits, because each return will also hit once.
@@bonez994 so..., I guess my damage "boost" from going closer to the mob come from Far Shot ..?
mark effect ascendancy + point blank, get the best of both, and save alot of passives, you will not need the higher dps for clearing trash, you only need it for bossing and super juiced rares. The real power of assasins mark endgame isnt the 40 multi, its the base crit, and the amount of passives, gear mods, you will save by capping your crit, that can be used for other damage sources.
This is very build dependent. You also can't rely on the mark for all enemies. If you're fighting 3-4 hard legion rares at once only one of them can be marked, which is why I like general reliable damage instead of conditional.
It's all about what you choose to maximize in your build and your playstyle.
@@subtractem Ofc, that holds true for all situations where you have 3 or 4 hard rares, Having higher single target in my opinion is still better, reducing the number of dangerous juiced rares fast is still more beneficial than chipping away at them all at the same time.
All im saying is taking increased crit chance is about the worst stat to invest heavily in for bow builds. And most bow builds have to take crit, there just isnt enough more damage multipliers to play non crit in a viable way. The true power of assassin mark is not in the multi, but in the fact you need much less investment to get to a very high reliable crit number. Even more so if you use a unique chest like in your case, and you can not get crit with attacks on a rare one.
thanks at first i was like wtf is he on about they return to target then i tested it and you where 100% right i just have never noticed since i dont want to want to cuddle bosses i swaped to punishment and droped focal point for wind ward now im a way tankier and do more damage in 99% of situations due to being able to curse everything and my proj actually retuning
are we even sure that normal arrows that return do double hit? i was under the assumption skills and spells cant hit the same target twice from the same cast / attack ?
so vengeant cascade would only increase the singletarget dps if we use snipers mark since those forked proj count as a "new" attack/ cast
Return hits twice yes. I tested it extensively.
@@subtractem ok nice thank you for testing it :)
now im curios if the crucible node for "ice spear shoots in a circle and returns to you" also can double hit
I am following your build and I love it so much I am blasting in map and recent update with update make the build faster and tanky. I feel bad this build will no longer be available in next league
I am left with bow I don’t know how to craft that I craft a normal dex stacking bow following your video but I am stuck now because there is no guide
so how would this work with spectral shield throw if i dont have pierce, fork, chain and only snipers
Not entirely related to this video, but if you aren't using forbidden jewels to get far shot or focal point isn't the best option to skip ricochet entirely, path to farshot and swap mirage archer for awakened chain? I could be missing something here but from my pob calcs you gain roughly 20% more damage and you get +2 additional chains. Am I totally messing up my vengeant cascade or something?
I'm not using mirage archer, I'm using Hypothermia (though either is good, MA is technically 27% more damage vs Hypothermia's 30% and great utility). I have +1 chain on my quiver corruption so, with Ricochet, I have 1 pierce and 2 chains already which makes Awakened Chain total overkill.
Also Chain is a Less damage multiplier, so for single target you'd still want to use something else. Focal Point is more damage but, in bossing mode, my build is already over 50M dps and it's just a mapping build anyway so it's total overkill and I'd rather use Ricochet for smoother mapping.
If you don't have any sources of pierce/fork/chain on your manaforge setup and you don't use sniper's mark, could you also use ensnaring arrow on a manaforged setup (assuming gem slots available)? I heard sniper's mark / pierce screws with manaforged ensnaring arrow stacks, but maybe using a different curse opens this up depending on your build and could be something to consider as well.
Vengeant cascade alone breaks ensnaring arrow, it will immediately return.
If you aren't using vc you then need to avoid any sources of arrow behavior such as pierce and split from snipers mark.
@@subtractem I see, thanks for that information!
What do you think about the interaction with lightning strike?
What about using hydrosphere + sniper's mark?
So just to be clear, if I run Sniper's mark, having +1 pierce is meaningless?
Not meaningless no, but for single target the split will be pushed to the front of the queue before pierce happens.
Any curse + Hex Bloom is really underrated, just sayin' :D
Doesn't work with marks unfortunately and they can only affect one enemy at a time anyway. Great for builds that can use it though!
@@subtractem Just a thought - does the curse on hit rings work with unset rings hexbloom slotted in? Or those are simply effects and not actual skill triggers?
Idk about melee range. :/ To me it felt like I doubled my dmg when I got vengent cascade. I guess it was placebo? Have the past few weeks been a lie?
I have enough currency now, want to try a bow build. Anyone can recommend? omniscience or ashes of stars? i crafted a multi element T1 thicket bow
pob so we can see it as you explain !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a question about hideout, if anyone can please, how do i set my floor the same as his? I use atlas ho base
divergence environmental effect
What is that wing mtx ?
Nullifier
How do you switch between barrage and not ruclips.net/video/yGrqWsIPOiY/видео.html
Different support gem
How much u spend dude for this build??
About 150 divines, you can import my profile to see the pob.
And pob please.