AsA is always going for value on the river. I even think AsQ(pre-flop 4bet bluff) goes for value on the river after going tiny on flop and turn. OOP only has a few flushes when the As and Qs are accounted for so it’s really only KK and 1 combo of QQ you lose to w AsQ. I’m value jamming that all day if I went that small on flop and turn.
Yeah sorry I’d play the same line but check raise shove on the turn. You got it you got it. Simple! Especially since hero was in the straddle and there’s history lol. Calling down to river to fold is silly especially when the river is a blank. Otherwise you need to fold the turn because you can’t simply hope to spike a 4th spade or fold because any Asx which should be included in most of his range is now crushing you. Basically I always try to make my river decisions on the turn based on what I believe I need, don’t need ,what I think he doesn’t want to see and his bet size etc etc. So for this example I’m calling bet on the flop with the intention of automatically check raising shove on turn if I peel a spade, king, queen, blank and maybe if I pair the board with the other two cards (forgot) It’s too tough of a decision going to the river with this line hero made so I usually fold or make villian decide on turn. Good players will always choose aggression to take full advantage when they sense weakness and I think that’s what happened here. But who knows and what do I know lol
Well, it matters knowing what's V's 4bet range in order to successfully answer this puzzle. Based on the callers description, anything from Ax suited, AKx, AQx, to pocket TT or higher. If this is correct, then shoving/folding pre is the only sound decision. (calling is a road for troubles).
lmao he had >3k behind the 4bet was only 350 you cant jam 1. missed value if opp has less than QQ bc they will fold. 2. You get snapped by AA and loses your whole stack when you could just play flop this deep.
@@HoangTruong-vk7ek Scaring a pocket QQ away in this hand would be a great job, wouldn't it. . H could 5-bet instead of jamming, to achieve the same effect. . There was no need to be scared of AA with this V profile and his position. Based on the intro, H was scared of V, and not of what he was holding. . Calling 4-bet pre was calling for troubles. Which H eventually got. 😂 . H did not have >$3k
@@pot_kivach160 no you dont want to scare QQ away you had KK you want opponent to be in with anything but AA thats why he only calls. In a sense this call was a trap. A 5bet would have been ok but then when he got calls he's basically playing his cards face up
Taking all into account, villain would have stacked me. By hero's own admission, villain dominates him when in position, this hand seems to be no exception.
This is about as close as it gets. AA/QQ has you beat but I'm not sure they're betting 1/5th the pot on the flop. He's more or less representing the nut flush but we block AKs, there's no AQs, AJ-A6s is likely not 4betting. The only hand I can think of that would be a flush is maybe Aj-A5s. That's a pretty narrow range. I think a call or a fold is fine. AxAs is a real possibility because how do you have a flush w/ the A/Q out of the deck in a 4bet pot? If you had a set on the flop, you're probably raising that probe bet. I lean fold but I think calling due to history of him pushing you oop is also fine. AsQx is also possible.
My totally armchair take: Villain’s value range for sure includes AsAx (3 combos) and QQ (3 combos). Also any nut flush hands he might have, but what hands are those? He cannot have AQss or AKss, but let’s just say he has AJ, AT, and A5ss all the time (which of course he might not), for 3 more combos. So that’s 9, and if we throw in AA no spade then it’s 12. So from a pot odds perspective we need to come up with 6 bluff combos I think (because we get 2:1 so we gotta be good 1/3 times). If he doesn’t have many offsuit Ax hands, then it’s kinda tough. we gotta give him AsKx (2 combos), and then maybe AKcc and AKhh is 4. If we throw in a couple random ones maybe we get to 6. All that being said, I probably am still calling with KsKx simply because I don’t have it in me to fold that in this spot.
Bart i don’t watch your videos or understand this new age idea of putting your entire thought process out on the internet for others the try and imitate while playing live but please, by all means, make yourself comfortable and KEEP THEM COMING
I think I got turned around in this one. If the villain has the nut flush, what hand did he start with that he 4-bets pre? AJ, AT, JT are the only broadway combos left, the only suited connectors are J9, J7, T9, 97, or 75, and some Ax maybe? How many, if any, of those is he 4-betting?
One Interesting to consider @bart is that you say that KKs is better than 1010s and JJs which is obvious , but when you think about it , is it ?? And what I mean is that is it better to unlock the AsK combos ? Giving him 2x more combos of the Askx combo? And If we think he may check back KK on the river at SOME frequency , there’s a case to be made that JJs could be better than KKs? Interesting little thing to think about .
I raised the button with JJ and got called by UTG and cutoff in a tournament with blinds at 2/4000. Flop came QJ3 with 2 clubs. UTG checked, cutoff bet, I raise, UTG shoves for 85k, cutoff folds, I consider folding as he can have QQ here even without raising preflop. I call, he turns over K5 of clubs for the second nut draw and gets there on the river. I love poker.
For me, the key would be the 3 bet out of the straddle. When he 4 bets, caution is called for. As you were the straddle, he knows if you 3 bet it's likely you have at least 8's plus, or suited high connectors. After calling a 4 bet, small bet on flop, and a larger but still small bet on turn, he's polarized to either a nut draw, or a strong made hand. On the shove at the river, I would painfully fold.
5 bet pre anything else is kind of garbage and puts the whole hand off the rails. I don’t know what id do on the river because id never get here this way.
I DISAGREE! The Hero needs to 5-bet preflop or fold!!! If 5-bet then maybe fold if the Villain shoves or re-raises! DO NOT CALL WITH KINGS OUT OF POSITION TO A 4-BET! Calling in that position makes no sense to me! What do you think about my analysis?
Any further thoughts about how the flop was played? how likely is villain c-betting 20% of pot with AA? And is villain's bet sizing on flop even advisable? Hero also said they have history, so have there been instances where this villain has induced raises from 2nd best have with small bets? Taking villain's 2.5x 4-bet and their 1/5th flop sizing together, I'm wondering if check raising flop is the best play. Thoughts?
My only thought here is that the hero can't reraise the flop since there was no previous raise. He could have check-raised the flop, but reraising was impossible there.
My instinct would be to have raised flop once they bet that small simply because I need some value hands to include when I attack that bet and I seriously lack 2-pair and set combos. That said I can understand not doing it, given that it is rare he is check raising flop in a 4-bet pot, certainly the plan going into the flop would be check call.
I had AA in the SB. UTG raised to 15. UTG+1 called. I 3B to 50. UTG and UTG+1 both call. Flop J 6 3 rainbow. I bet 75. UTG raises to 180. UTG+1 calls. What is UTG+1 calling there against a 3 bet and a caller pre, and a bet-raise after the flop?
The villain has 4 reasonable value hands: AsAx, QQ (since light 3-betting and 4-betting between the two is apparently commonplace, the villain should also have QQ), AJss (same reasoning), A5ss. Villain may even have partials of A4ss and A3ss, if these two have a _really_ frisky dynamic. However, the hero mentioned trying to not play OOP against this villain, which makes his 3-bet range out of the straddle that much stronger, and should have the same effect on the villain's 4-betting range. So, stay with 4 value hands. Pretty much all his triple-barrel bluffs contain the As , because it's a little suicidal otherwise, as the hero can be sitting there with AKss, waiting for the fair catch. I'm going to skip the combo counting, but the villain shouldn't have that many offsuit 4-betting hands when the hero 3-bets from the straddle. This is probably a (very) reluctant fold.
AsKx feels most likely to me. Pot control sizing on the flop, semi-bluff sizing on the turn to get AK/JJ/TT to fold, bomb the river with the nut flush blocker.
But that tiny bet is confusing as hell to most players. A very experienced player will make that bet knowing that if his flush doesn’t hit on the turn, he’s almost guaranteed to get checked to and then he can decide what to do on the turn and river. That tiny bet often freezes players into thinking it could be a trap bet and they will usually default to check calling. It ensures he can realize equity on flush draws but still get value with AA and flopped sets etc.
@@EricSmyth4Christ that's exactly why I personally would prefer a larger bet or a check.... to either fold out something while I have the equity or to take the free card.
Wouldn't you rather defend here with Kings (with King of Spades) than Queens? You beat the same hands, but the King is an important blocker (he can't have AKs, can't have KJs, which are two of the key hands you're worried about).
Found myself in a similar spot recently with kings over pair on Queen high but board was a missed front door flush.. pot on River was 5k and he jammed remainder of my effective stack for 5k left and I folded
Honestly listening through this pretty quickly I'm thinking V holds: AsQx or JsJx, with AsKx as a bluff (even though we have good blocker and is unlikely) I honestly think V is value betting AsAx or even set of queens, I don't really see a flush line with this unless V had AsJs or AsTs
What's Hero's type here from the tables perspective? It matters because villain could think the hero would call with JJ> vs AQ. Looks like JJ> after preflop action.
Table's perspective may be different from villain's perspective. From villain's perspective hero probably is solid, capable of making big laydowns, and doesn't want to battle with villain in big pots without the near nuts. Hero said he was thinking of folding the turn. No battling player would ever consider folding the turn in this spot. Villain should only have about 4 flushes in his range, if he has more than that then hero should be punishing him more preflop and/or making more bluff catching calls.
I think you played the hand great. PF 200bb deep is a call for all the reasons mentioned. On the flip you’ve got the Ks so I like calling and trying to get to showdown. Once you call the flop, he knows you don’t have a set here so when the spade hits he can bet small with the nfd setting up a psb on the river. His story makes sense. Can he do this with worse? Doubtful bc you’re range consists of overpairs, AQ, and flushes. If he has AA w/out a spade I would expect a bigger bet on the turn to charge your As hands. AsAx is possible on the river but you lose to that too. There 1 combo of KK out there but that should take a similar line to AA w/out the As and should bet bigger on the turn. Does he have any bluffs in his range? Tough to say w/out knowing his 4 betting tendencies but your 3 bang from straddle is pretty strong so I would expect him to be fairly solid here. If we give him a range of Kk+ and 1 Axs hand for balance then he’s got 3 bluffs in his range to 4 value hands (assuming he plays AsAx like this). He’d have to be running a multi street bluff fairly often with Axs no spade which is pretty suicidal bc you could easily hold the As and snap him off. Absent a strong read to the contrary I think it’s a pretty safe fold.
I guess I would have to sigh call instead of folding. I will only fold this if I don’t have the King of Spades. Playing 2-5-10, it’s impossible Villain have AQo here with his line. I don’t think Villain river shoves have Queens too because it’s more likely will bet maybe half pot or less with Sets or Aces, or some might check river for passive routes. This means Hero will lose to only Ax Spades. Bluffing range could be AKo with Ace of Spades or Ax with Ace of Spades.
Lets say that (AKo) IP @260bb ES is always a 4B. Still there are only 2 combos bc Hero has (Kd). So if we add some (As3s, As4s, As5s, AsTs, AsJs, maybe As8s, As9s) as 4B IP bluffs Deep and also lets say 1-2 combos of (AsAx) then it is a razor thin call on River at best... If ya like variance Call, if ya don't Fold...
It seems to me that the only value hand Hero can beat is AsQx and that is pushing it based on preflop action. The only bluff that you can beat is AsKx. Lose to QQ, AA, and obviously all flushes. I don't think villain will turn JJ or worse into a bluff, JJ has some showdown value.
the instructive part of the hand is to slowplay the nuts to an aggressive/crusher opponent in a 4b pot. hero has as much/more QQ, more flushes, and your range looks very capped after checking river. There's no way he's jamming river at the right frequency, especially when there is no AsKs or AsQs. If we're folding KsK here then we must be calling down with QQ/AsXs a fair amount. it's also possible he makes it to the river with close to his full range as played. how often is he checking back turn in position in 4b pots when he can credibly rep AA, top set, and the nut flush? it's also reasonable that villain may have too wide of a 4b range here that will be incentivized to bluff. If we think villain has flushes, then it means he arrives at turn with a lot of AJ/AT/A5/KQ/KJ type hands that want to check. based on caller's explanation, thought process, and play of the hand, fold can't be awful, but I lean toward a call. it's certainly possible villain knows the caller wants to call and is valuetowning him, but it seems more likely that he's attacking a capped range from an opponent he has owned in the past.
Its a call imo vs a good player. We are at the top of our range here. I'm prob calling KK with no spade as well and maybe start folding AQ. The nut flush he had? He is 4 betting A5ss then I guess
If I’m sitting there-all im thing about is “Is he balanced enough to have 4 combos of AJo with the Ace of spaces and 2x AKo with the Ace of spades, and could he turn TT or JJ with a spade into a bluff?” And if so I can call. Calling is only a punt if your opponent is the type to have 0 bluffs here. He’s always gonna have 6x AA, 3x QQ, and some A-high spades in his value range…
I’m confused. Hero and villain have history where they will 3 and 4 bet lighter than most of the player pool. So why the fuck aren’t you 5 betting KK oop vs this villain. Once you just call you have to call down vs this villain on this run out. This game is probably to big for you.
Kinda easy (not snap) fold. At best you're hoping villain plays AKo as a 5b!, which I doubt. Villain's range is weighted to AxAs, KK for a chop, wheel suited AX, QQ. There's no way based on how the caller described villain is overplaying AKs no spades, JJ, or TT. Personally i like a check-raise on the flop as I have more top set in my range. It's not going to get villain to fold, but it might go check check on turn and then evaluate the river.
villain is 4! pre and c/r flop, check turn is an absurdly weak line on this board and playing to have to go double check raise with nutted hands is awful. if you're going to c/r flop then it's with what QQ and your AK/Q/J/5 of spades and maybe AdQd. and you're hoping to get value from??? AQ? NFD? Don't think he's folding better than KK. if you want to turn KK into a bluff, I think you're better off shoving turn than c/r flop.
I feel like the whole “not having a 5-betting range” is a mistake. It allows thinking players to 4-bet you liberally knowing you won’t come back over the top.
If villain owns hero when in position then why not 5-bet and make the hand a lot easier to play. Hero says there’s a lot of light 3 and 4 betting being done between them.
So maybe villain had AA or QQ. Maybe he made the nut flush [although that would be kind of a bad beat/cooler here]. Who knows? Maybe hero made the correct fold. What's certain is he played the hand terribly. He seemed to just be waiting for villain to stop betting. Villain has position & 4 bet pre. I would not count on him stopping. Hero really needs to raise this flop or possibly turn. Otherwise he should save himself some chips & just fold pre.
I think 50% because villain is laying himself 1:1 on a bluff. I think 67% would be for facing a half-pot bet because then villain is laying himself 2:1 on a bluff.
Couldn't he have AQ with the Ace of spades going for thin value? His line would make sense for flop and turn, but wondering if he's trying to get a call from JJ or KQ, and also comfortably shove against an AQ chop since he holds the nut blocker. Otherwise he's representing 8 combos - AA, AsJs, and As5s, but AJ seems unlikely as well.
Bart already explained right why 5 bet shoves is not a good move here. Most pro doesn’t have 5 bet range because it’s impossible or extremely difficult to balance the range. This means only better hand will call your 5 bets, otherwise all fold because you will never try to shoves your AK with 5 bets to balance your range. Furthermore, it’s almost 300 bbs depth, if 100 bbs game, then you can shoves it.
Why does the villain have any more flushes in his range than the hero? Hero blocks the one major hand that 4 bets pre with the Ks, therefore the villain would need to be 4 betting reallyyyyyy light to have the nut flush here. A5ss A4ss really the only two that make sense. Not sure what I'd do but if you're not calling with KK here I don't know what you are calling with
I am going to 5b to 900 always. If you are going to play like this with KKs you might as well 5 bet and see if the person jams. If he jams you can fold. I dunno how many people at 2-5-10 faces a 5 bet with AAs is going to flat call back. Flop I would also lead out $400 if I flat called the $350 for blocker bet.
Lol at 5betting so that you can fold to a shove. Seeing the flop for 350 in position is way better. The problem with 5 betting is that villain will often fold everything except AA and KK, which means doing it with KK is obviously terrible.
I’m folding. He’s got AA QQ a lot with this line and you have KK blockers for AsKos. He has more flushes than you cause you are not calling that 4bet OOP with something like Js10s or AsXs. But he is 4bet bluffing with those hands PF.
@@KyprosEc okay???? One guy buys Amazon stock because he is clicking buttons, another guy buys Amazon stock after 40 hours of research Both people are ultimately making the same decision
I think the villain has QQ and is targeting AA, and KK. How many flushes are you going to have in your range in a 4 bet pot? There shouldn't be many flushes in his range either.
So if the villain consistently outplays the hero in position almost everytime why in the world would just flat the 4bet? You want to either be playing for stacks here or folding. I do not play this deep but I just don't see why you wouldn't 5 bet here especially against a superior player out of position.
If the villain had the nuts, he made a foolish river bet (against an opponent admittedly afraid of him). But that's not what happened. He played his mid pair (likely JJ) perfectly and got the result he wanted.
Thoughts on playing AsAx this way on flop and turn? (As played, I think AsAx could jam river profitably because it seems like hero's range is no better than AQ, KQ or KK ... and those hands are likely to call a river shove.)
@@alexbehrend1886 yeah AsAx can show up here for sure... and the remaining combos of AsK left that he's bluff jamming the river hoping hero folds his non-nutted made hands. Interesting spot.
Without seeing the results, I think you have to call river here vs a good/thinking player. I would only expect to be beat by QQ and possibly AA with the ace of spades. Beating a lot of hands that V would play this way as bluffs and there just aren’t many hands that are playing this way for value. So I would have to pay off here. I’m not even sure a nut flush always jams river here vs betting an amount like 1k or 1200.
Would a properly sized raise on the flop down bet narrow his range considerably? Or is he just still continuing with all flush draws and AA? Maybe gets him to fold JJ type hands, but as you mention, he’s probably not taking that line with JJ. Maybe gets him to fold non-nut flush draws? Making your KK much weaker by the river?
I play with a lot of regs which I am as well, but when I have a top 5 hand like AK or better, I always get into positions where I 3 bet and the other person will shove pre-flop. Obviously we both have great hands and it’s gonna be a coin flip. But I hate losing my whole stack to a coin flip. Would folding sometimes be okay in that scenario or is that a crazy thing to do given the strength of my hand? I feel like shoving there is more of a tournament play rather than a cash game.
I guess it matters how often you play because if a lot variance works out and you'll be plus EV. For me who barely gets to play I'll shy away wanting to actually play post flop and find better spots.
@@geniusmode1219 that means that there’s already so much in the pot that you always want to coinflip after the two raises. You’re both getting good odds at that point
This looks like QQ or AA to me. Would QQ 4-bet pre-flop? Sure. Would AQo, AJ or A5? Only if opponent is extremely aggressive or thinks you are a donkey. AQ and AK of spades are excluded. Caller check-calls flop with the flush draw, and turn when flush comes in, and checks river. This is an odd line for the caller if he has the flush. So if opponent has QQ, and can rule out caller having the flush, he's got the best hand and can jam. In practice he might also do it with AA even though it's a weaker hand, but it doesn't feel weaker when you have it. I think caller should have been more aggressive on flop (or shoved pre).
Caller correctly folded here. How much value do you beat on the river? I don’t see any, really. If you don’t beat any value, you have to be unblocking all of his likely bluffs to put in the call. The Kd isn’t a good card to have for a bluff catcher here. His most likely bluffs are AKo with the As, so having the Kd blocks a good bluff candidate, he’s more likely to have value which you can’t beat, so it’s an easy fold.
Against a balanced 4b range I would place my opponent, the caller, on AQs(3) or KK(6). Knowing this yea this is a tough call on the river when you count the combos of Axss, QQ, AA, AsKx, and KK that shoves as basically a bluff here when getting 2:1.
You’re beating some of his value (AQ). I don’t see how I could fold here, but also I play in Florida where players are splashy and absolutely would shove AQ here hoping to get called by a worse queen.
haven't listened to the result yet, come on we have KK w/ the Ks, just gotta put our big boy pants on and just call. We can maybe fold some KK without the Ks but this hand is way too good to fold.
good advice!People coming up with all sorts of crazy bluffs here.AJo with ace spades,AQ with Ace of spades,whatever but you know the guy will just show a better hand hand
I DISAGREE! The Hero needs to 5-bet preflop or fold!!! If 5-bet then maybe fold if the Villain shoves or re-raises! DO NOT CALL WITH KINGS OUT OF POSITION TO A 4-BET! Calling in that position makes no sense to me!
Jesus, hero's playing the room's best player, he is quite underrepped, has a decent bluffcatcher at worst, and villain is taking a line in which it's very easy to just bomb every unpaired hand thus overbluff. Snapcall, win 50% at least.
I'm not the target audience for this video (never dealt a big pair), but it was still interesting how others navigate this spot
HaHaHaHaaaaaa. Hilarious.
Probably the best run bad joke I’ve EVER heard (I usually hate those)
🤣👌🏻
Wow the Tank getting a call-in is pretty cool
AsA is always going for value on the river. I even think AsQ(pre-flop 4bet bluff) goes for value on the river after going tiny on flop and turn. OOP only has a few flushes when the As and Qs are accounted for so it’s really only KK and 1 combo of QQ you lose to w AsQ. I’m value jamming that all day if I went that small on flop and turn.
If you have history of 3-4 betting light with this guy then you should construct a 5bet range
Yes. That's what I thought too initially.
Yeah sorry I’d play the same line but check raise shove on the turn. You got it you got it. Simple! Especially since hero was in the straddle and there’s history lol. Calling down to river to fold is silly especially when the river is a blank. Otherwise you need to fold the turn because you can’t simply hope to spike a 4th spade or fold because any Asx which should be included in most of his range is now crushing you. Basically I always try to make my river decisions on the turn based on what I believe I need, don’t need ,what I think he doesn’t want to see and his bet size etc etc. So for this example I’m calling bet on the flop with the intention of automatically check raising shove on turn if I peel a spade, king, queen, blank and maybe if I pair the board with the other two cards (forgot) It’s too tough of a decision going to the river with this line hero made so I usually fold or make villian decide on turn. Good players will always choose aggression to take full advantage when they sense weakness and I think that’s what happened here. But who knows and what do I know lol
So basically turn you're c/r shoving no matter whatever comes
I will call here for sure. Hero CC all the way, that is why he shove allin to prevent your call
Well, it matters knowing what's V's 4bet range in order to successfully answer this puzzle. Based on the callers description, anything from Ax suited, AKx, AQx, to pocket TT or higher.
If this is correct, then shoving/folding pre is the only sound decision. (calling is a road for troubles).
lmao he had >3k behind the 4bet was only 350 you cant jam 1. missed value if opp has less than QQ bc they will fold. 2. You get snapped by AA and loses your whole stack when you could just play flop this deep.
@@HoangTruong-vk7ek
Scaring a pocket QQ away in this hand would be a great job, wouldn't it.
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H could 5-bet instead of jamming, to achieve the same effect.
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There was no need to be scared of AA with this V profile and his position. Based on the intro, H was scared of V, and not of what he was holding.
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Calling 4-bet pre was calling for troubles. Which H eventually got. 😂
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H did not have >$3k
@@pot_kivach160 no you dont want to scare QQ away you had KK you want opponent to be in with anything but AA thats why he only calls. In a sense this call was a trap. A 5bet would have been ok but then when he got calls he's basically playing his cards face up
Taking all into account, villain would have stacked me. By hero's own admission, villain dominates him when in position, this hand seems to be no exception.
I think the history between the 2 players have to be taken into the consideration indeed. Cards, position matter but so does your opponent’s profile.
I've played at Shark Tank. Good club. I stop there on my trips back to Indiana.
This is about as close as it gets. AA/QQ has you beat but I'm not sure they're betting 1/5th the pot on the flop. He's more or less representing the nut flush but we block AKs, there's no AQs, AJ-A6s is likely not 4betting. The only hand I can think of that would be a flush is maybe Aj-A5s. That's a pretty narrow range. I think a call or a fold is fine. AxAs is a real possibility because how do you have a flush w/ the A/Q out of the deck in a 4bet pot? If you had a set on the flop, you're probably raising that probe bet. I lean fold but I think calling due to history of him pushing you oop is also fine. AsQx is also possible.
My totally armchair take:
Villain’s value range for sure includes AsAx (3 combos) and QQ (3 combos). Also any nut flush hands he might have, but what hands are those? He cannot have AQss or AKss, but let’s just say he has AJ, AT, and A5ss all the time (which of course he might not), for 3 more combos. So that’s 9, and if we throw in AA no spade then it’s 12. So from a pot odds perspective we need to come up with 6 bluff combos I think (because we get 2:1 so we gotta be good 1/3 times). If he doesn’t have many offsuit Ax hands, then it’s kinda tough. we gotta give him AsKx (2 combos), and then maybe AKcc and AKhh is 4. If we throw in a couple random ones maybe we get to 6.
All that being said, I probably am still calling with KsKx simply because I don’t have it in me to fold that in this spot.
Bart i don’t watch your videos or understand this new age idea of putting your entire thought process out on the internet for others the try and imitate while playing live but please, by all means, make yourself comfortable and KEEP THEM COMING
“I was thinking of folding the turn”
LOL
I think I got turned around in this one. If the villain has the nut flush, what hand did he start with that he 4-bets pre? AJ, AT, JT are the only broadway combos left, the only suited connectors are J9, J7, T9, 97, or 75, and some Ax maybe? How many, if any, of those is he 4-betting?
Ace rag suited. Maybe JTs sometimes to balance his 4 betting range. Caller said villain is a really good player.
I'm all in on the TURN!
One Interesting to consider @bart is that you say that KKs is better than 1010s and JJs which is obvious , but when you think about it , is it ?? And what I mean is that is it better to unlock the AsK combos ? Giving him 2x more combos of the Askx combo? And If we think he may check back KK on the river at SOME frequency , there’s a case to be made that JJs could be better than KKs? Interesting little thing to think about .
This is one of the main rooms I play in on a daily basis. Some of the lineups there are ridiculously tough by 2/5 standards.
I raised the button with JJ and got called by UTG and cutoff in a tournament with blinds at 2/4000. Flop came QJ3 with 2 clubs. UTG checked, cutoff bet, I raise, UTG shoves for 85k, cutoff folds, I consider folding as he can have QQ here even without raising preflop. I call, he turns over K5 of clubs for the second nut draw and gets there on the river. I love poker.
Have you ever made a post about the reverse happening?
Either your ahead hand holds up or your behind hand sucks out?
Can tell ur a noob when you said you considered folding middle set on the flop🤣😂
For me, the key would be the 3 bet out of the straddle. When he 4 bets, caution is called for. As you were the straddle, he knows if you 3 bet it's likely you have at least 8's plus, or suited high connectors. After calling a 4 bet, small bet on flop, and a larger but still small bet on turn, he's polarized to either a nut draw, or a strong made hand. On the shove at the river, I would painfully fold.
5 bet pre anything else is kind of garbage and puts the whole hand off the rails. I don’t know what id do on the river because id never get here this way.
I DISAGREE! The Hero needs to 5-bet preflop or fold!!! If 5-bet then maybe fold if the Villain shoves or re-raises! DO NOT CALL WITH KINGS OUT OF POSITION TO A 4-BET! Calling in that position makes no sense to me! What do you think about my analysis?
Any further thoughts about how the flop was played? how likely is villain c-betting 20% of pot with AA? And is villain's bet sizing on flop even advisable?
Hero also said they have history, so have there been instances where this villain has induced raises from 2nd best have with small bets?
Taking villain's 2.5x 4-bet and their 1/5th flop sizing together, I'm wondering if check raising flop is the best play.
Thoughts?
My only thought here is that the hero can't reraise the flop since there was no previous raise. He could have check-raised the flop, but reraising was impossible there.
My instinct would be to have raised flop once they bet that small simply because I need some value hands to include when I attack that bet and I seriously lack 2-pair and set combos. That said I can understand not doing it, given that it is rare he is check raising flop in a 4-bet pot, certainly the plan going into the flop would be check call.
I had AA in the SB. UTG raised to 15. UTG+1 called. I 3B to 50. UTG and UTG+1 both call. Flop J 6 3 rainbow. I bet 75. UTG raises to 180. UTG+1 calls. What is UTG+1 calling there against a 3 bet and a caller pre, and a bet-raise after the flop?
So we're giving the villain the nut flush, but it's a four bet AJ or less?
The villain has 4 reasonable value hands: AsAx, QQ (since light 3-betting and 4-betting between the two is apparently commonplace, the villain should also have QQ), AJss (same reasoning), A5ss. Villain may even have partials of A4ss and A3ss, if these two have a _really_ frisky dynamic. However, the hero mentioned trying to not play OOP against this villain, which makes his 3-bet range out of the straddle that much stronger, and should have the same effect on the villain's 4-betting range. So, stay with 4 value hands. Pretty much all his triple-barrel bluffs contain the As , because it's a little suicidal otherwise, as the hero can be sitting there with AKss, waiting for the fair catch. I'm going to skip the combo counting, but the villain shouldn't have that many offsuit 4-betting hands when the hero 3-bets from the straddle. This is probably a (very) reluctant fold.
Just call. Most aren’t 4 betting aj suited. You have the k spades. He can’t have aq of spades. Either he has aa with a or spade or ak with a spade
AsKx feels most likely to me. Pot control sizing on the flop, semi-bluff sizing on the turn to get AK/JJ/TT to fold, bomb the river with the nut flush blocker.
Would a 20%~ blocker bet on the river be kosher here? Or is that just an absolute punt?
When the Villain 4 bets pre flop the hero must go all in with KK.
Would the nut flush draw bet so little on the flop? I think I would prefer to bet atleast 1/3 or take the free card
But that tiny bet is confusing as hell to most players. A very experienced player will make that bet knowing that if his flush doesn’t hit on the turn, he’s almost guaranteed to get checked to and then he can decide what to do on the turn and river. That tiny bet often freezes players into thinking it could be a trap bet and they will usually default to check calling. It ensures he can realize equity on flush draws but still get value with AA and flopped sets etc.
It might be a better size for certain turn cards
@@EricSmyth4Christ that's exactly why I personally would prefer a larger bet or a check.... to either fold out something while I have the equity or to take the free card.
@@jmiller6612 Well humans have really bad and low turn/donking frequencies, so smaller bets actually give you an extra free card most of the time
@@EricSmyth4Christ what?
I saw a very similar hand where the villain down bet very small on the flop, the hero raised and villain shoved with QQ vs heros KK... thoughts
Wouldn't you rather defend here with Kings (with King of Spades) than Queens? You beat the same hands, but the King is an important blocker (he can't have AKs, can't have KJs, which are two of the key hands you're worried about).
Pretty nasty spot for hero ontheriver. I think I would most likely sigh call but excited to hear the result!
No result 😢
I woukd Min click the turn to see where your at when the third spade comes
Amazing video you might want to watch!
Max Lethal “You’re vs your” rap
Found myself in a similar spot recently with kings over pair on Queen high but board was a missed front door flush.. pot on River was 5k and he jammed remainder of my effective stack for 5k left and I folded
What was action pre/post?
Honestly listening through this pretty quickly I'm thinking V holds:
AsQx or JsJx, with AsKx as a bluff (even though we have good blocker and is unlikely)
I honestly think V is value betting AsAx or even set of queens, I don't really see a flush line with this unless V had AsJs or AsTs
I had AQo A of spades, that was a funny hand
What's Hero's type here from the tables perspective? It matters because villain could think the hero would call with JJ> vs AQ. Looks like JJ> after preflop action.
Table's perspective may be different from villain's perspective. From villain's perspective hero probably is solid, capable of making big laydowns, and doesn't want to battle with villain in big pots without the near nuts. Hero said he was thinking of folding the turn. No battling player would ever consider folding the turn in this spot. Villain should only have about 4 flushes in his range, if he has more than that then hero should be punishing him more preflop and/or making more bluff catching calls.
@@AT-bw4cm that's probably what he meant: the profile H left for the table/V to perceive.
Agreed with comment.
I think you played the hand great. PF 200bb deep is a call for all the reasons mentioned. On the flip you’ve got the Ks so I like calling and trying to get to showdown. Once you call the flop, he knows you don’t have a set here so when the spade hits he can bet small with the nfd setting up a psb on the river. His story makes sense. Can he do this with worse? Doubtful bc you’re range consists of overpairs, AQ, and flushes. If he has AA w/out a spade I would expect a bigger bet on the turn to charge your As hands. AsAx is possible on the river but you lose to that too. There 1 combo of KK out there but that should take a similar line to AA w/out the As and should bet bigger on the turn. Does he have any bluffs in his range? Tough to say w/out knowing his 4 betting tendencies but your 3 bang from straddle is pretty strong so I would expect him to be fairly solid here. If we give him a range of Kk+ and 1 Axs hand for balance then he’s got 3 bluffs in his range to 4 value hands (assuming he plays AsAx like this). He’d have to be running a multi street bluff fairly often with Axs no spade which is pretty suicidal bc you could easily hold the As and snap him off. Absent a strong read to the contrary I think it’s a pretty safe fold.
I guess I would have to sigh call instead of folding. I will only fold this if I don’t have the King of Spades.
Playing 2-5-10, it’s impossible Villain have AQo here with his line. I don’t think Villain river shoves have Queens too because it’s more likely will bet maybe half pot or less with Sets or Aces, or some might check river for passive routes.
This means Hero will lose to only Ax Spades. Bluffing range could be AKo with Ace of Spades or Ax with Ace of Spades.
Lets say that (AKo) IP @260bb ES is always a 4B. Still there are only 2 combos bc Hero has (Kd). So if we add some (As3s, As4s, As5s, AsTs, AsJs, maybe As8s, As9s) as 4B IP bluffs Deep and also lets say 1-2 combos of (AsAx) then it is a razor thin call on River at best... If ya like variance Call, if ya don't Fold...
What nut flush? AJ, A10, A5 that 4bets pre?
Yeha doesn’t make sense when you block AK spades
It seems to me that the only value hand Hero can beat is AsQx and that is pushing it based on preflop action. The only bluff that you can beat is AsKx. Lose to QQ, AA, and obviously all flushes. I don't think villain will turn JJ or worse into a bluff, JJ has some showdown value.
2:10 Why calling is the best option here?
the instructive part of the hand is to slowplay the nuts to an aggressive/crusher opponent in a 4b pot. hero has as much/more QQ, more flushes, and your range looks very capped after checking river. There's no way he's jamming river at the right frequency, especially when there is no AsKs or AsQs. If we're folding KsK here then we must be calling down with QQ/AsXs a fair amount.
it's also possible he makes it to the river with close to his full range as played. how often is he checking back turn in position in 4b pots when he can credibly rep AA, top set, and the nut flush? it's also reasonable that villain may have too wide of a 4b range here that will be incentivized to bluff. If we think villain has flushes, then it means he arrives at turn with a lot of AJ/AT/A5/KQ/KJ type hands that want to check.
based on caller's explanation, thought process, and play of the hand, fold can't be awful, but I lean toward a call. it's certainly possible villain knows the caller wants to call and is valuetowning him, but it seems more likely that he's attacking a capped range from an opponent he has owned in the past.
Its a call imo vs a good player. We are at the top of our range here. I'm prob calling KK with no spade as well and maybe start folding AQ. The nut flush he had? He is 4 betting A5ss then I guess
If I’m sitting there-all im thing about is “Is he balanced enough to have 4 combos of AJo with the Ace of spaces and 2x AKo with the Ace of spades, and could he turn TT or JJ with a spade into a bluff?” And if so I can call. Calling is only a punt if your opponent is the type to have 0 bluffs here.
He’s always gonna have 6x AA, 3x QQ, and some A-high spades in his value range…
20% flop sizing is GTO in these spots 100bb eff, 200eff villain can go a little bigger but not necessary
Small sizes op
Feels like a hold your nose and must call here and live with the results
I’m confused. Hero and villain have history where they will 3 and 4 bet lighter than most of the player pool. So why the fuck aren’t you 5 betting KK oop vs this villain. Once you just call you have to call down vs this villain on this run out. This game is probably to big for you.
Kinda easy (not snap) fold. At best you're hoping villain plays AKo as a 5b!, which I doubt. Villain's range is weighted to AxAs, KK for a chop, wheel suited AX, QQ. There's no way based on how the caller described villain is overplaying AKs no spades, JJ, or TT.
Personally i like a check-raise on the flop as I have more top set in my range. It's not going to get villain to fold, but it might go check check on turn and then evaluate the river.
villain is 4! pre and c/r flop, check turn is an absurdly weak line on this board and playing to have to go double check raise with nutted hands is awful. if you're going to c/r flop then it's with what QQ and your AK/Q/J/5 of spades and maybe AdQd. and you're hoping to get value from??? AQ? NFD? Don't think he's folding better than KK. if you want to turn KK into a bluff, I think you're better off shoving turn than c/r flop.
Shark tank is a great room. Love ohio poker.
Guessing out of position is hard work. Shove pre, if he’s got AA take it.
Aces or AK with one Ace spade. Or QQ that knows hero almost never has a flush here and isn’t worried about it.
I feel like the whole “not having a 5-betting range” is a mistake. It allows thinking players to 4-bet you liberally knowing you won’t come back over the top.
Absolutely
Been seeing this in the high stakes big o game I play
People have been calling with AA2xx to a 3 bet even sometimes
If villain owns hero when in position then why not 5-bet and make the hand a lot easier to play. Hero says there’s a lot of light 3 and 4 betting being done between them.
So maybe villain had AA or QQ. Maybe he made the nut flush [although that would be kind of a bad beat/cooler here]. Who knows? Maybe hero made the correct fold. What's certain is he played the hand terribly. He seemed to just be waiting for villain to stop betting. Villain has position & 4 bet pre. I would not count on him stopping. Hero really needs to raise this flop or possibly turn. Otherwise he should save himself some chips & just fold pre.
Did the call get dropped at the end? The guy just went silent after he finished saying he had the nut flush he thinks.
thanks for the analysis of this hand. you mention twice that the mdf needs to be 50%, but should it not be 67% as it is a potsize bet?
I think 50% because villain is laying himself 1:1 on a bluff. I think 67% would be for facing a half-pot bet because then villain is laying himself 2:1 on a bluff.
Nope it’s %50
Keep working on it
Couldn't he have AQ with the Ace of spades going for thin value? His line would make sense for flop and turn, but wondering if he's trying to get a call from JJ or KQ, and also comfortably shove against an AQ chop since he holds the nut blocker. Otherwise he's representing 8 combos - AA, AsJs, and As5s, but AJ seems unlikely as well.
I get big pairs but I can’t call in bc it never goes post flop. Or it goes 74 ways to the flop and the flop is 876.
easy call!
I don't see myself folding if I found myself in this spot....but then I'm 5 bet shoving preflop with KK, so I wouldn't end up here anyway.
So you’d go from a bet of 350 and raise to 2700?
Too deep to do that sir... This isn't a 100bb spot
@@Scott-wq5lk if you 3x $350 and sit at $2700, aren’t you really pot committed? I don’t see a preflop shove as too bad here.
Would 5-betting to $1100 be a better play?
Bart already explained right why 5 bet shoves is not a good move here. Most pro doesn’t have 5 bet range because it’s impossible or extremely difficult to balance the range. This means only better hand will call your 5 bets, otherwise all fold because you will never try to shoves your AK with 5 bets to balance your range. Furthermore, it’s almost 300 bbs depth, if 100 bbs game, then you can shoves it.
Why does the villain have any more flushes in his range than the hero? Hero blocks the one major hand that 4 bets pre with the Ks, therefore the villain would need to be 4 betting reallyyyyyy light to have the nut flush here. A5ss A4ss really the only two that make sense. Not sure what I'd do but if you're not calling with KK here I don't know what you are calling with
I am going to 5b to 900 always. If you are going to play like this with KKs you might as well 5 bet and see if the person jams. If he jams you can fold. I dunno how many people at 2-5-10 faces a 5 bet with AAs is going to flat call back. Flop I would also lead out $400 if I flat called the $350 for blocker bet.
Lol at 5betting so that you can fold to a shove. Seeing the flop for 350 in position is way better. The problem with 5 betting is that villain will often fold everything except AA and KK, which means doing it with KK is obviously terrible.
I’m folding. He’s got AA QQ a lot with this line and you have KK blockers for AsKos. He has more flushes than you cause you are not calling that 4bet OOP with something like Js10s or AsXs. But he is 4bet bluffing with those hands PF.
You can find out where you're at on the flop with a check raise. Otherwise a tough hand.
It’s called the “Find out where you’re at fallacy”
Not a good play
Can raise the flop for other reasons though
@EricSmyth14 lol but you're saying raise the flop for other reasons. You're making 0 sense. Ultimately we're making the same play...
@@KyprosEc okay????
One guy buys Amazon stock because he is clicking buttons, another guy buys Amazon stock after 40 hours of research
Both people are ultimately making the same decision
@@EricSmyth4Christ terrible reasoning. You're raising since you think you might have the best hand as would I be. Case closed
Not at results but I never fold AA or QQ on this board.
I think the villain has QQ and is targeting AA, and KK. How many flushes are you going to have in your range in a 4 bet pot? There shouldn't be many flushes in his range either.
So if the villain consistently outplays the hero in position almost everytime why in the world would just flat the 4bet? You want to either be playing for stacks here or folding. I do not play this deep but I just don't see why you wouldn't 5 bet here especially against a superior player out of position.
If the villain had the nuts, he made a foolish river bet (against an opponent admittedly afraid of him). But that's not what happened. He played his mid pair (likely JJ) perfectly and got the result he wanted.
A2-A5/AJ of spades that villain decided to 4bet bluff with pre plays the hand this way more than any other holding IMO.
Thoughts on playing AsAx this way on flop and turn? (As played, I think AsAx could jam river profitably because it seems like hero's range is no better than AQ, KQ or KK ... and those hands are likely to call a river shove.)
@@alexbehrend1886 yeah AsAx can show up here for sure... and the remaining combos of AsK left that he's bluff jamming the river hoping hero folds his non-nutted made hands. Interesting spot.
The only bluff I can think of is As with a off suit king and you're blocking that. Villain could have a flush or QQ or AsAx I would fold too.
Without seeing the results, I think you have to call river here vs a good/thinking player. I would only expect to be beat by QQ and possibly AA with the ace of spades. Beating a lot of hands that V would play this way as bluffs and there just aren’t many hands that are playing this way for value. So I would have to pay off here. I’m not even sure a nut flush always jams river here vs betting an amount like 1k or 1200.
If you are good on the flop, I think you are still good.
Hey Bart! Your title is meant to say pocket pairs not poker pairs!
Would a properly sized raise on the flop down bet narrow his range considerably? Or is he just still continuing with all flush draws and AA? Maybe gets him to fold JJ type hands, but as you mention, he’s probably not taking that line with JJ. Maybe gets him to fold non-nut flush draws? Making your KK much weaker by the river?
Maybe AA with a spade blocker, QQ crushes you. It's a spot alright.
I play with a lot of regs which I am as well, but when I have a top 5 hand like AK or better, I always get into positions where I 3 bet and the other person will shove pre-flop. Obviously we both have great hands and it’s gonna be a coin flip. But I hate losing my whole stack to a coin flip. Would folding sometimes be okay in that scenario or is that a crazy thing to do given the strength of my hand? I feel like shoving there is more of a tournament play rather than a cash game.
I guess it matters how often you play because if a lot variance works out and you'll be plus EV. For me who barely gets to play I'll shy away wanting to actually play post flop and find better spots.
@@mrhumble2937 yeah same with me I guess. That’s probably why I prefer to fold , because I don’t get to play as much as I’d like
You have overlay from the raise and 3-bet
@@mattynigma I don’t know what that means
@@geniusmode1219 that means that there’s already so much in the pot that you always want to coinflip after the two raises. You’re both getting good odds at that point
I think he might have AJs or QQ
This looks like QQ or AA to me. Would QQ 4-bet pre-flop? Sure. Would AQo, AJ or A5? Only if opponent is extremely aggressive or thinks you are a donkey. AQ and AK of spades are excluded.
Caller check-calls flop with the flush draw, and turn when flush comes in, and checks river. This is an odd line for the caller if he has the flush.
So if opponent has QQ, and can rule out caller having the flush, he's got the best hand and can jam. In practice he might also do it with AA even though it's a weaker hand, but it doesn't feel weaker when you have it.
I think caller should have been more aggressive on flop (or shoved pre).
his opponent was Ben that hand. I was sitting beside him. he had 10.jack of diamonds
Haha
Villian looks like he was going to jam regardless, he was playing the player.
Feels like bluff, the villan had a lot behind I would’ve called
Villain would check back AA prob. Can’t see villain turning a quality hand into a bluff here. Fold all day long
Caller correctly folded here. How much value do you beat on the river? I don’t see any, really. If you don’t beat any value, you have to be unblocking all of his likely bluffs to put in the call. The Kd isn’t a good card to have for a bluff catcher here. His most likely bluffs are AKo with the As, so having the Kd blocks a good bluff candidate, he’s more likely to have value which you can’t beat, so it’s an easy fold.
I don’t think he had the nut flush, maybe AQ with the ace of spades
makes no sense. What worse hand is calling a psb otr?
He was supposed to raise the villain on the flop or turn to get the information, instead of having to guess by taking such a passive line.
Against a balanced 4b range I would place my opponent, the caller, on AQs(3) or KK(6).
Knowing this yea this is a tough call on the river when you count the combos of Axss, QQ, AA, AsKx, and KK that shoves as basically a bluff here when getting 2:1.
You’re beating some of his value (AQ). I don’t see how I could fold here, but also I play in Florida where players are splashy and absolutely would shove AQ here hoping to get called by a worse queen.
If you're going to play this scared just flat the original raise and call down plus the money saved you can get a monsters under the bed detector
A Q .
haven't listened to the result yet, come on we have KK w/ the Ks, just gotta put our big boy pants on and just call. We can maybe fold some KK without the Ks but this hand is way too good to fold.
When you have to dream up a few hands you can beat, fold lol
good advice!People coming up with all sorts of crazy bluffs here.AJo with ace spades,AQ with Ace of spades,whatever but you know the guy will just show a better hand hand
pocket*
good ol shark tank CHINOS BUTTON TIME
Probably jamming pre lol. If you’re just gonna get outplayed like this on the river just get it in pre. If he’s got aces, you lose
I DISAGREE! The Hero needs to 5-bet preflop or fold!!! If 5-bet then maybe fold if the Villain shoves or re-raises! DO NOT CALL WITH KINGS OUT OF POSITION TO A 4-BET! Calling in that position makes no sense to me!
Jesus, hero's playing the room's best player, he is quite underrepped, has a decent bluffcatcher at worst, and villain is taking a line in which it's very easy to just bomb every unpaired hand thus overbluff. Snapcall, win 50% at least.
Not sure I would post a video like this where you don't know the end result of BOTH players hands... seems kinda pointless
Terrible. You have to jam pre or call down if you know he gets out of line again you often.
I doubt the flush..... I bet it was a bluff of aq with aS..... it's the old he knows that I know that he knows....blah blah blah
QQ
Bad fold
First