This is a prime example of how these videos should be make! No clickbait, first thing you see is the result and the answer to the title. Then a demonstration of why it's needed and thorough research! Absolutely love this channel, keep it up!
Dont forget, that the concret slab on itself acts similar to a flywheel by absorbing the acceleration because of its huge weight. You can compare this concept to a capacitor on alternating voltage, which smoothes the output voltage. F = m * a a = F / m If there is a constant force F you can reduce the acceleration a by increasing the mass m.
I am using tennis ball (soft ones, that are used for kids training, they dont bounce that much) feet and foam mat under them. People was saying that this will reduce print quality. After that, I stopped arguing with community).
For those unfamiliar with how industrial machining equipment is installed, this is standard practice. The structural rigidity and accuracy of 95% of large turning and milling machines lies in the manner in which they're installed. Typically they're anchored to an isolation pad. This pad is reinforced concrete anywhere from 2 feet to 8 feet deep possibly more depending on the application that is isolated from the earth below and surrounding edges to the existing shop floor by several inches of high density foam.
CNC machinist whos setup several machines here, can confirm. thought it's less for the noise and more for the other benefits, like not vibrating the floor in the whole shop with heavy cuts.
@Cara.314 if you've ever machined in a large part facility it becomes pretty obvious why machines are on isolation pads. Oh, you're taking a finish boring pass on an h7 bearing fit bore? Oh did someone just flip a 30 ton part in the next bay? Did the weld department just drop a 50 ton part? If you're on a proper isolation pad you won't feel a thing.
One of the two machines I operate in a steel mill has a foundation of 14 feet thick. I was part of the project and was here when the hole was dug, piling drove in to support the hole and isolate the foundation. The company that built the machine and installed it recommended 18 feet, but my employer decided to go cheaper. Their 18 feet suggested was based off a week of vibration monitoring where the machine was to be installed. Not saying 18 feet would have fixed it, but I can feel our furnace moving slabs sometimes when I sit on the machine.
@@matthewjordan3348Exactly. I work in a roll shop in a hot strip steel mill. We build,maintain and grind the rolls. As a grinder that operates a Herkules KPM roll grinder I can see in real time the profile of the roll for every mm of it. If a furnace stocker drops a bar I can see shape peak out of tolerance because the probes on the caliper moved because the impact. And sometimes when the furnace is pushing bars in the furnace I can feel the skidding that’s happening in the furnace. Needless to say putting the roll shop near the furnace was a bad idea on many fronts and it doesn’t help the furnace we have is a “pusher style” and not a walking beam furnace. The foundation on that machine is 14 feet thick and isolated from the rest of the mill’s floor. The contractor wanted 18 my company said good enough.😂
To be honest? I thought you were pulling my leg. However, in order to refute it scientifically, I had to test it first. The result? Jaw-dropping sound reduction!
@@baljazz By the looks of the materials in the video you could probably go to a carpet store and ask for a swatch of their thickest underlayment. You'll get something about 8mm-10mm thick, but you can stack up a couple of layers if you want.
This video is amazing and saved my sleep. My printer is in my bedroom on an IKEA bookshelf and it's been keeping me awake during longer prints with noise from the steppers. I bought a $1.75 concrete paver and some non-slip drawer lining foam I had lying around and now I can finally sleep again! Thank you so much!
(Engineer hat on) @@elyasstephens8242 True; that's what he said. However, the increased inertial mass really attenuates the vibration being transmitted to the foam. F=ma, and all that. For a given force, a higher mass object (concrete) won't move as quickly as a lower mass object (wood), therefore dampening the conducted sound. Set a printer directly on a concrete floor, and you'll be really close to the limit on how quiet you can make it. (Engineer hat removed)
@@JamieStuff "Set a printer directly on a concrete floor, and you'll be really close to the limit on how quiet you can make it." UNTIL you get it on a pre-stressed concrete unsupported open span - you'll then hear it... this is the same way that you find voids under a sidewalk or driveway - by taking a metal rod and dropping it onto the concrete and listening for the "singing" - unreal until you see it in action... pretty wild stuff. The rod acts as a tuning fork when you hit it on the concrete, and causes the concrete to vibrate above any voids. Granted, if you hear that, it means you have work ahead to repair it (else the concrete will eventually fail there from lack of support) The concrete if it was floating would make noise - the concrete on another surface (and supported on edges) will be quieter. I agree that the mass is the main thing, but it also has to have a decent support. If you haven't been in a part of the world where the concrete can get washed out underneath, you may not be aware of it, but this really is a thing.
I'm late to the party on this but in case it helps anyone: I just got a 16x16 paver from Home Depot and four 1 inch circle felt stick on's, one for each corner that the paver sits on. This fits inside my self built lack table enclosure for my Prusa MK3S with about an inch to spare in height inside the enclosure. This has made the printer practically silent, in comparison to how loud it was before. Those hollow lack tables really amplify the sound vibrations, and this solution made a HUGE, and I mean HUGE difference.
something not really being mentioned by anyone is the benifit of thermal mass. i think this is a big deal without an enclosure, but maybe might require running the heated bed for an hour before printing? i think most people would greatly benifit from building enclosures but few seem to notice the benifits, just put a cardboard box over the printer lol
@@TheGunguy461 ?? Not sure what you mean. The printer sits on the concrete block and it doesn't move and isn't subjected to any stress to cause anything to flake off.
@@PatJones82 First of all, thanks for responding. Maybe I'm overthinking. I went to Home Depot. When I lightly ran my fingers over the concrete slabs, tiny particles came off. My 3D printer is in an enclosure. With the fan running, I'm worried that the concrete particles will fly around and damage the printer.
A thing to consider is leaving the filament spool out of the printer's frame. It's sprung mass that will add inertia to the system. Having it separated will make it easier to damp the movement.
This is a great representation of isolation and dampening when it come to not only 3D printing, but just about anything that moves. A grinder on a table or a generator would be a good example. Thank you Stefan. You have, once again, presented an incredible example and explanation of engineering principles for the non-initiated.
This is true, I recently read a study on Hard Drive dampening that showed attaching them to a granite plate (added mass) and dampening below that was way more effective than what most people do (soft rubber dampeners). It's basically the same setup that worked best in the Stefan's testing, just concrete instead of granite as the mass.
I work as a packaging engineer, and sometimes customers get confused when we add weight to a very sensitive pack. you can't have any cushioning from impact if the item is so lightweight that it bounces right off the packaging!
Unfortunatly he missed the main point: the mass and cosequently the low Eigenfrequency. Actually this is a good example of missunderstood physics. Partially perfect but missing the main point.
Yes. I wish more 3D makers and small cnc makers would take time to understand the principles that cnc machine tool manufacturers spent decades researching and refining. A stable platform is step 1 for anything precise
Well, I was so inspired I went to the store. To get a paving slab for each of my two printers... I ended up paving my drive. I am holding you responsible!!! (Also, thanks for great content as ever) :)
LOL. I had the same thing happen to me.. Got the paver, some plastidip to coat it... and a ton of concrete and supplies to make a pad to wheel the trash cans on.
I know this video is 4 years old but I did this for my Neptune 4 Plus plus attached brackets from my wall and desk and it is now rock solid and no longer shakes. Thanks for sharing this!
"viscoelasticity" is the keyword here :) one of the proper material out there with a great viscoelasticity and perfect to put under your concrete block is "memory foam". Give it a try! Thanks for your work Stefan
@@StavrosKor maybe plywood or mdf but wood or steel would probably ring. You could try 2 layers of mdf with a different material in between (constrained layer) but the concrete paver would be a lot easier. Maybe a granite cutoff if there is a counter top place nearby?
I just did this and the hardest part was getting the concrete slab home without a car. I'm very pleased with the result. Best quality of life upgrade ever! 👍
Your ball drop tests brought me back to one of my introductory engineering courses where we investigated coefficient of restitution. Very interesting and thorough investigation!
Instinctively this made sense to me & was something I planned to do because as an audio engineer, our industry has been doing the same on studio monitors for ages! Heavy blocks, then springy material ☺️ Concrete and foam pads is pretty common! Funnily enough, that‘s also how washing machines deal with vibration - If you‘ve ever opened one up, you‘ll see that the majority of its weight actually comes from a heavy concrete weight on the inside! And then we often put foam pads underneath. Same principle 😁 Thank you for the confirmation!
Sorry to hijack after a year, just getting my slab and foam. Would it be beneficial to leave the whole square of foam intact (I have a 50x50 foam for the 40x40 slab) or cut it up and put it in different corners/spots as shown in the video. Not sure if it still falls under your domain nor if you are still around, but thank you for your answer
Mechanically, all sound is wasted energy (other than in audio speakers, that is). The key to minimizing it is to ensure all motion (momentum, technically) in one direction is balanced by an equal and opposite momentum AS CLOSE TO THE SOURCE OF MOTION AS POSSIBLE. When one side of an axis is held rigid, any imbalance is transmitted through that rigid structure to whatever is supporting it, and so on to the building itself. Motion in one axis can be coupled to other axes when the imbalance is forced through anything that can act as a lever. The spring supports were horrible at this, converting most X-Y motion into Z motion, with oscillatory bouncing! A better mount would be stiffer and/or more damped in Z, since there relatively little direct imbalance due to the slow Z axis movements. I remember well when I started applying my embedded real-time programming skills to actuator controls. I designed my software to drive the system well within specs, but when I tested it rigidly mounted to a large concrete test-bed, the mechanism tore itself apart. I next tested it attached to a mass more closely representing its operational load, only to have it shake that apart as well, severing it's mount to the test-bed. Only when I properly isolated the system did I get correct performance, in this case adding mounts that closely matched the mechanical aspects of the fluid dynamics of its intended operational environment. Quite a valuable applied physics lesson for a software engineer! The same applies to 3D printers, though the goal is to isolate it from the environment without that isolation reflecting unwanted problems back into the 3D printer. Printers with a bed moving laterally will generate the most forceful motion on that axis, with other axes contribution less until you get to the axis carrying the carriage. Carriage motion has the longest path to be conducted to the base, and so can use the other axes to absorb the imbalance, leading to ringing when any mechanical part in that path provides any reasonance. This gets worse as print speed grows. Fortunately, the same techniques that permit faster printing can also result in less noise! The reverse is also true: techniques that reduce noise can permit faster printing! So let's instead attack this as a single full-system problem. The best way to reduce momentum imbalance is to reduce either acceleration (and its derivative, jerk) or the mass being accelerated. Which is the one huge reason to switch to a Bowden feed: The extruder drive stepper is no longer part of the moving mass of the carriage, with the added complexity of more difficult filament feed/retract behavior. But there is a middle solution that is nearly as good, if more expensive: Keep the filament feeder on the carriage, but move the stepper away using a flexible drive. The industry standard RepRap design also moves the stepper driving the carriage axis. The general technique of "move no steppers" can be applied further away from the carriage. The CoreXY and Delta are printer architectures having no moving steppers. That nice for a new printer, but we still must deal with whatever imbalance is left, no matter what printer we have. How? At this point, we need to work with the printer as a whole. The solutions Stefan showed all act at the base, the primary goal being to reduce conducted noise. Can we do better? We ideally would absorb each imbalance as close to its source as possible. But how to do so while maintaining the mechanical integrity, alignment and performance of the printer as a whole? If you are a printer designer you can add flexibility to the structure that is compensated by a drive system that models, and accounts for, that flexible structure and the applied forces. A great example of such modeling is "melt zone pressure" that is controlled to ensure actual filament flow accounts for variables such as filament composition, filament diameter, melt-zone size, heater capacity, nozzle diameter, and so on, and do so without actually having a pressure sensor at the melt zone. A model is designed then tuned for the print environment, which is what "linear advance" does in Marlin, and is why the Klipper project exists. We can do similar software modeling for momentum imbalance. Since printers don't change like filament, we don't need a dynamic model: We can solve a static model one time, by separately tuning acceleration and jerk for each axis. I'm presently in the design phase of a project to automate this calibration, by attaching 6-axis IMUs (accelerometers + gyros) to each axis then using a very simple optimization/learning network on a PC or RasPi to null out as much imbalance as possible while still meeting performance/speed goals. (I already did a similar project to isolate my aging body from road vibration when riding my triathlon race bicycle while still providing, and even enhancing, my maximum performance: The feet, butt and hands/elbows were separate paths needing separate solutions, some of which included changing my riding style and bike fit.) Modeling and software can get us only so far: Whatever imbalance still remains will need to be absorbed external to the printer. But we certainly can crudely model it, and in some cases directly measure it. The imbalances can get complex due to axis coupling as imbalances make their way to the base. There won't be just the linear components due to the motion of each axis, but additional components due to axis coupling. Wow. This comment got long, and I have other things to get done. I'll end it here. Please comment if you'd like more, and I'll expand this into a blog post that I'll link here.
BobC /. I always thought I but too much information on my posts. After reading your I’m very impressed with your content. Unfortunately I feel most viewers are not going to take the time to read it. I for one think most viewers are only on this channel to make short silly comments that most of the time are off topic.
What about adding a mass on the other side of the belt (the one which goes back when the bed go ahead) ? It could give the opposite force, isn't it ? (Sorry for my English)
I got excited and rushed out to do this without considering the necessity first. I find my ender 3 isn't super loud to begin with and the shelves it sits on top of are narrow and quite solid. Testing before and after mounting on the slab + packing foam, the reduction might be 1-2db, but both were around ~56db. Great video, the fault was mine :)
I'd done similar with some scrap around the house. Used Pelican case foam (harder foam) and scrap granite that I got when a friend re-did their kitchen. It was a night and day difference. Very cool to see the actual test data. I might try and find some softer foam to use with it! Keep the great content coming.
Great content man! reminder: mass is an important factor on vibrations as well, the stifness, elasticity and the mass of the system. The concrete adds mass, possibly reducing the overall amplitude of vibration.
Several years ago I noticed that there were imperfections in my layer height each time I leaned on my workbench to look at the printer (an old i3) . I solved this with a large tile placed under it - not as much mass as a concrete paver block, but much more aesthetic and cleanable.
Let me be the umpteenth person to say that this is STUNNINGLY EFFECTIVE 😍 . Thank you so much! I was getting noise transmitted through the floor to the room below, and now that's completely silenced. Brilliant! I happened to have a big chunk of that super-foam left over from when I used to build and fly remote control aeroplanes, we used that stuff to pack around components and it's great. Sadly I couldn't find any pavers for 2 notes, but I did find one for £8 GBP which was within budget for this mod and turned out to be very well worth the expense.
Good job man! always a pleasure. Been using a pizza stone and memory foam myself, but if i had the space I'd try sand like subwoofer isolation. A couple thoughts to drive engagement here in the comments (pardon the messiness, i am typing with a broken hand): an addition for any viewers unfamiliar with decibel scale, know that it is log, not linear, and one Bel (ie. 10 dB) different = 2x perceived loudness change as far as psychoacoustic perception goes, so the ~68dB loudest result is literally more than 2x 'louder' than the ~56dB quietest result (assuming fairly similar spectrum). Another benefit of decoupling that doesn't show up in weighted SPL comparison is that down beyond the low range of the dBa weighting, low frequency/high amplitude "thump, thump' directional change impacts are also decoupled, which are what used to wake me up during nighttime printing since those are more omnidirectional freq and more easily transmitted by conduction... they are not as "loud" in the human hearing range, but i sleep on a japanese bed, so i could feel it through the floor.
I found you channel, and I like the technical approach to the problems that 3d printers have , also your experience speaks for itself. Keep up the good work!!
I tried the sand method by putting the printer in my kitty litter box. Sound improved but left some brown cylindrical artifacts on the print surface... Not sure what happened.
Literally the best 3d printer upgrade, no lie here. My Ender 3 was on a small wood console (floor is a concrete slab on IPN beams). I could hear it from the other room, but I could also feel the micro vibrations. On long prints it was barely bearable. I added a 1 3/8" concrete tile on medium-hard mattress foam. I can still hear the stepper motors from afar but it's way quieter, and absolutely no vibration felt ever since. So simple yet so clever
This is a wonderful exposition! I just wish you had measured the audio from the printer with a spectral analyzer to identify which frequency is contributing most to the resonance, and test whether this frequency is attenuated with via the concrete block.
So this just saved my butt. As I posted a couple days ago, it worked great for my 3d printer... This weekend we got my daughter a small rock tumbler kit. I agreed to have it in the office as we cant put it in her bedroom for days without her messing with it. Now I thought I was smart... we set it up in the closet. Since the room is an office, its never used. Plugged it in and... that was a big mistake. I didnt realize how LOUD rock tumblers are. Now I know you can cover it pretty easily, but that makes it overheat. This has to run a motor turning a barrell for days on end..and heating it up could dry out the slurry inside too. Listening carefully I realize the sound we hear isnt from the tumbler its the door and walls and everything from the tumbler. Then I realize.. Stefan! You saved the day for us. I fold up some craft batting (didnt have any foam), put a paver on it and put the tumbler on the paver. Its not silent, but about as loud as the washing machine.. easily ignored and fades into the background. Thank you!
Picked one up for mine last year. Difference was like night and day. I put thick felt pads under the slab to try and isolate any extra vibration from reaching the table it's on. Works great :)
I have a small CNC router. I built an MDF enclosure for it and filled the base with fine play sand. When it comes to tools like this, the heavier, the better, not just for noise, but for quality of cut. The sand works a bit like the lead balls in a dead blow hammer. Compliant (rubber, etc.) is to prevent transmission of vibration. But weight (paver, sand, etc.) is to actually dampen the vibrations. (Edit: you point this out later in the video) For additional dampening, I recommend fixing the CNC router or 3d printer to the weight. Clamps or screws can help. This couples the weight to the machine, making the whole machine weigh more, and resonate less, assuming it's tightly built. This is usually less necessary for a 3d printer, though.
I already had my printer sitting on a 15mm slab of plywood. I added 4 mm of foam under the printer and 4 mm of foam under the plywood. Blown away by how quiet the printer got (even with Trinamic stepper drivers). Stefan, sehr schön!
When I got my firt printer, i placed it on a very old (~1950), classy and wobbly table. When i was having it renovated i had to place my printer directly on the floor. At first i thought i damaged my printer by moving it. It was much louder and ghosting appeared. When i was printing on the table it was shaking a lot. I guess it absorbed lots of vibrations.
I've just done that on Friday under CR10S I have in our spare office that's used by our homeoffice guys two days a week. Huge improvement in surrounding offices separated only by glass walls. It can't be heard there anymore. Only needed part was to buy that concrete piece and shift the printer feet slightly to fit that 40x40cm I bought. Great and thanks.
One of my "favorite cheap and effective printer upgrades" is a silicone sock. When printing with high temperature materials, a silicone sock can prevent spurious "MINTEMP" and "THERMAL RUNAWAY" error messages. It can also save your heater block and delicate thermistor wires from being ruined by the dreaded blob caused by an unattended long print becoming unstuck.
Interesting! My ender 3 pro came with one installed, but it must have been installed loosely because it snagged on a print and caused a huge blob between the sock and the hot end, extending up the sides to where the filament doesn’t remelt (at least not now that I’ve had to remove the sock). I think your comment has convinced me to clean the hot end off and try reinstalling the sock
I feel like I got a small course in physics. Liked, commented and subscribed Today my neighbor below came and knocked on my door and asked what that humming sound was. Turns out it's my Anycubic Photon M3 Max standing in an otherwise empty wardrobe, and probably resonated like a speaker when the Z axis moves. I had previously put thick corrugated card board under it to dampen a bit. Now I will take my oversized wooden cutting board instead of the concrete slab and put whatever suitable soft material I can find around the house as feet below the cutting board, until I can get the optimal solution. Really informative.
Thank you very much for an interesting video. I have seen it featured on most of the major electronics-blogs - good job :) A good rule of thumb is: kill the noise at the source. This goes for both mechanical an electronics engineering. There's a lot of stepper motor damping mounting brackets for sale. How about doing a video on the various types, how much they reduce noise and how they affect the printing quality?
Holy crap this worked... I took it one step further. My wife did not like the idea of a big 16" x 16" paver on her nice desk that my printer rests on. So I bought a can of the dipping style Plasti-Dip and coated the entire paver on all sides with a thick layer. Once dry, the paver is inside a shell of thick soft rubber. I then put 4 felt pads on the bottom. The rubber seems to help couple it to the cement paver, and provide additional dampening while the concrete works as a mass dampener and the felt pads decouple the whole thing from the desk... and since I bought one with a nice beveled edge, it looks good too. My printer now sits about 2.25" higher ( 57mm) and that also gives me a better view of the printing when seated at my desk nearby.
I used a bouncy ball to test many materials I was able to find like felt, rubber, foam, sponges, cardboard, and piles of paper and I found that stacking towels until it's at least 15mm thick is an excellent dampener. Used towels can be found in any home and can also be bought at thrift stores for next to nothing, so I would personally recommend that.
Interesting. I watched a video from DIY Perks some years ago where he made his own sound dampening wall decoration and when he was trying different materials to damp sounds he founds towels were the best solution too. I’ll go shopping tomorrow for some concrete and towels, wish me luck :)
Also worth noting that if you use a soft material like a big sheet of foam, when the printer eventually sinks into it a bit any cooling underneath is severely limited. Some of my printers have a cooling fan that exhausts under the unit, and it's all too easy to block that path. 👍
I just purchased a 18x18 in concrete slab and installed on my printer with some foam in the bottom and it definitely helps with the noise, I wish I knew this years ago! Awesome videos!
Best upgrade ever. Quality of my prints is so much better. The sound benefits to this are worth it just in itself. I can now do long prints with out disturbing anyone in the house.
If people are looking for both high density and very firm (a high Indent Load Deflection - I.L.D. number) foam, what you want is "rebonded" foam, which is the type of multicolored foam that Stefan is using in the video. A number of online retailers can offer you this type of foam in custom sizes.
This is an excellent resource and is useful for explaining the concept of damping in a practical application. Just wanted to point out that 'damping' and 'dampening' are not interchangeable. Dampening == Making something wet Damping == Decreasing the amplitude of an oscillation
If you want to know how quiet your printer could be with good sound insulation, just pick it up (from somewhere on the frame that won't snag your fingers!) whilst it's printing. It's a great way to know what kind of noise level you're aiming for. I ended up buying some (not cheap) special foam domes meant to isolate speakers from furniture -- they are calibrated for the speaker's weight (OK, the printer's weight in my case). The difference with my MK2s Prusa (now a MK2.5s) is night-and-day. In normal use it's almost as quiet as my MK3s Prusas. Take those rubber domes away and it's much, much noisier.
Hello Stefan, I've bought my concrete paving stone and some upholstery foam from a local hardware store today. I am stunned to hear the difference. It looks quite strange but well the result is great! Luckily they had upholstery foam in the same dimensions as the concrete paver. So I had just to stack them on each and sit the printer on top. Thank you and keep up the good work! Best wishes, Sebastian
Very well explained! I will try using this heavy block under my ender 3 as it's definitely not the most quiet printer, especially with the stock board. Thank you!
I have a table with 4 screwed legs so the table is a bit wobbly. For my Ender 3 Pro it worked fine to put a large mousepad under the whole printer. In combination with the silent mainboard upgrade vibrations are 90% gone and not disturbing anymore. The most sound emitting parts are now the PSU fan and the hotend fan which i plan to replace with bigger fans so the airflow remains the same at reduced rpm. Thanks for your nice videos and please keep on, CNC Kitchen :-)
I tried felt pads under my printer, but it was actually a really bad idea. I have a wood frame printer and it's not at all stiff, so it was capable of twisting more and worsened wall print quality, so i removed them. I made a replacement top frame piece which adds two swept back pieces with mount points for two rods. One of the rods just ties things together, and one is basically my filament rack, i put several spools on it. It stiffens the printer somewhat and weighs it down. Now i have some kind of foam rubber feet under the legs of the IKEA LACK table that the printer sits on. Sure it's not ideal because there is a cavity in the LACK table that can amplify the noise, the top surface is basically a thin piece of hard paper that is supported by a hex cell hard paper lattice on the inside, but it's satisfactory enough, the printer isn't heard outside the room. I remember in the early days of PC watercooling, people used those Eheim garden pumps, and they're BEASTS, they vibrate quite a bit; so a number of mounting methods were tested, including suspending the pump from bungee cords etc. The best material that has been found, according to several tests, was the orange open-cell foam rubber. OK you know at a home improvement store, where you get those plastic trowel handles? and then you get a variety of pads to go with them, like the black dense foam rubber, and the bright orange fluffy foam? Well the orange stuff. Silent PC enthusiasts also found them to be among the best way to quieten some particularly egregious hard disks from that era. So yeah it's not difficult to obtain, nor expensive, i think it would be good to add to this test.
Fire hazard - Stefan already discussed it and you weren't paying attention. And, if you use the right kind of foam, it will produce cyanide gas which helps you not worry about the fire
I have filled my Ender 3 frame extrusions with rice for damping in the structure itself, I think this is a good addition to any base damping that is implemented as it will increase the mass as well raising the frames natural frequency. I am thinking about attaching a tuned mass damper to the frame as well as a future improvement but have yet to get to testing.
@@jimmer411I agree sand would be heavier and fill the gaps better, ideally I would want to use a thick oil as it would fill everywhere, it's far more difficult to seal inside which is my issue with sand aswell.
Okay I just made a new 3D printing table with layers of concrete->foam->plywood->concrete and my printer became amazingly silent. No idea where you can get those materials for $2. 16x16 concrete block alone costs $8 + transportation costs.
i had my 3d printer hanging from the ceiling with ropes. including a spring on top. most silent setup but a hassle to work on the printer :) so i am back to soft foam with a plate.
I saw this video a few months ago and coincidentally dug up a bunch of old slate and bricks buried in my back yard by a previous owner. Tried it using the packing material from my CR10S and it works beautifully!
I placed my rock tumbler (don't have a printer *yet*) on a folded over towel to reduce vibration, no clue why I didn't think of using a high inertia concrete slab. I feel like now, most of your noise problems are due to sound in the air, which you could dampen with at least the back wall being sound absorbent. Love the graphs and the truly scientific experiments!
@@TheRainHarvester no im kinda nub too but it just helps with print removal since I'm printing ppe so it helps to rub glue stick all over the print bed so i don't need to use a raft to adhere the print onto the bed. Also it tends to get stuck so i just peel the print surface of the print bed and the print just unsticks itself lol
Audio engineer here: we use a similar idea in a few areas in recording studios. One is the studio itself; the idea is you build an acoustically isolated room within the existing room, put the new floor on massive dampers, and fill the cavity between the inner and outer structures with rockwool. This ensures that any physical vibrations transmitted between them will spend most of their energy in heat and friction, so won't produce enough acoustic energy to be picked up by even very sensitive microphones.
Thanks for this tip! I just put a heavy slab of soapstone (happened to have the stuff around) and some packing material under my Prusa. The effect is phenomenal. It's like putting on hearing protectors. Amazing.
Agree. Great idea, and I love these videos, but this was a bit long. Rigidly mount the printer to a heavy solid mass, the concrete block, to reduce the resonant frequencies of the system. Then decouple that with a dampened spring. If the table vibrates, I'd switch to a heavier, stronger table.
I agree that you don’t need more than 5 seconds to see this method works. But Stefan has more of a scientific method/style for his videos, which I appreciate. I think the benefit of this long winded video is that you could improve on his method, because he explains the problem and solutions in depth.
This was very informative, I currently have my printer on a wire shelf which has wheels, it is causing the whole shelf to wabble around, but that is absorbing the vibration a bit. I plan to put foam below and a piece of coroplast ontop of the foam, and reinforce the wire shelf a little at the top to keep it from wabbling, while putting some felt below the wheels so it can more around a little, because most of the noise is in the wheels grinding onto the wooden floor. really enjoying the video, thanks
I have my CR10-S5 sitting on a large piece of 1/2” tempered glass which used to be a table-top. I have 5” machined aluminum risers on each corner epoxied to the glass and connected to each foot of the printer. I know that’s not realistic for many people to have setup, but sometimes it’s good to be a machinist. Try Craigslist for a small cheap outdoor table if you like the look of glass. It’s extremely heavy and stops reverberations. This allows me to reach under the printer to adjust the bed better than just using the larger adjusting knobs. It’s very handy to be able to make adjustments while running a large dialing pattern to dial in the bed just right. You cant beat a large mass securing the base. There is a reason CNC machines require a large, deep concrete slab extending through the floor. This is a great idea on the cheap for smaller printers though.
You're underselling yourself. When you go from 60 to 50 decibels it looks like you've reduced volume by 1/6th, but since decibels are on a log scale, every 10 points down halves the volume. If you do another video about noise it might be worth graphing on a log scale so people can see the huge the difference you've made. It's actually really impressive.
@@xKenn I didn't try concrete but I tried several different foam based decouplers and they all worked in the beginning but went flat after a couple of weeks or months. Also they had the problem that the unevenly distributed weight of the printer flattened the foam on one side more than on the other. I tried to compensate for that by adding more layers on the more compressed side but it never got to a steady state with a level printer.
@@myketheoneill Maybe a combination of the mass of the concrete plate and the damping of the squash ball could really come together if you cinched those two up with some hose clamps, or a similar tensioning device. I think that would probably work really well. The machine needs something to pull against right?
Same here, they cut the noise and ringing down nicely. Also added the stepper motor dampeners and with both the most noticeable sound is now the faint whirr of the cooling blower
A neighbour left an aged parasol base beside their driveway. After it wasn't collected for a couple of months, I took it, drilled out the wobbly steel upright, cleaned up the slab, slipped it under my printer, and it made a world of difference. At 600x600x30mm it's a perfect base for my Ender 3 v2, and being decorative granite, the top side is highly polished, so no cable abrasion, and the printers rubber feet still grip it nicely. It's good to know that my instincts were right on this, though I might now have to play with what I put under the granite slab to improve things even more.
I'm more for a hybrid solution.. paver with felt pads as shown, but using multiple thicknesses to tune an additional softer foam to approximately 1/3rd total compression. Excellent video!
Speaking of accelerations causing issues, a change in velocity is called acceleration. A change in acceleration is called jerk. A change in jerk is called jounce. Cura lets you change the maximum allowable acceleration and jerk, and in my experience this doesnt add that much time to most prints. This can be a way to tune out the lower vibration noises from the slicer if you struggle with hearing your printer from the other room.
I have a MK2.5s I've borrowed from work (to help printing frames for PPE visors) and the sound insulation I'm using is a single piece of toilet paper, folded multiple times into a square - one under each foot. Works really well :D
Just did this to my Ender 3, with 5015 fan noctua cooling fans and Tmc2208 she is just about silent. Though I think that putting a slab of concrete was really the best bang for the buck upgrade the difference is really noticeable Thanks!
Hab Squash Bälle unter 2 Druckern. Funktioniert super. Jedoch werde ich jetzt nach diesem Video wohl doch den hässlichen, schweren, harten, klobigen Weg beschreiten und sämtliche Drucker auf Beton stellen. Ich probiere es mal aus. Jedoch waren die Dunlop Squash Bälle (2 gelbe Punkte müssen die haben, falls es jemand macht) nicht ganz billig 🙈
This is a prime example of how these videos should be make! No clickbait, first thing you see is the result and the answer to the title. Then a demonstration of why it's needed and thorough research! Absolutely love this channel, keep it up!
Yes indeed.
You can't buy a slab of concrete and foam for 2$ though so it is clickbait for sure but the video itself is good and teaches a lot.
I thought it was a $2 printer lol
It actually starts at 1:21 so not quite a prime example imo. ⏰
Keep your dixk in your pants dude.
Dont forget, that the concret slab on itself acts similar to a flywheel by absorbing the acceleration because of its huge weight. You can compare this concept to a capacitor on alternating voltage, which smoothes the output voltage.
F = m * a a = F / m
If there is a constant force F you can reduce the acceleration a by increasing the mass m.
Ah of course.
It increases inertial mass meaning more force is needed to accelerate it
I did this a year ago and everyone on the forums laughed at me 😅
That's not why they were laughing at you.
Just kiddin.
I am using tennis ball (soft ones, that are used for kids training, they dont bounce that much) feet and foam mat under them. People was saying that this will reduce print quality. After that, I stopped arguing with community).
I know that feeling mate!! I bet they are going around claiming they invented the method too!!
I'm sure people laughed at Elon Musk too.
Tyler Zlatkus they did
For those unfamiliar with how industrial machining equipment is installed, this is standard practice. The structural rigidity and accuracy of 95% of large turning and milling machines lies in the manner in which they're installed. Typically they're anchored to an isolation pad. This pad is reinforced concrete anywhere from 2 feet to 8 feet deep possibly more depending on the application that is isolated from the earth below and surrounding edges to the existing shop floor by several inches of high density foam.
Millwright here, can confirm
CNC machinist whos setup several machines here, can confirm. thought it's less for the noise and more for the other benefits, like not vibrating the floor in the whole shop with heavy cuts.
@Cara.314 if you've ever machined in a large part facility it becomes pretty obvious why machines are on isolation pads. Oh, you're taking a finish boring pass on an h7 bearing fit bore? Oh did someone just flip a 30 ton part in the next bay? Did the weld department just drop a 50 ton part? If you're on a proper isolation pad you won't feel a thing.
One of the two machines I operate in a steel mill has a foundation of 14 feet thick. I was part of the project and was here when the hole was dug, piling drove in to support the hole and isolate the foundation. The company that built the machine and installed it recommended 18 feet, but my employer decided to go cheaper. Their 18 feet suggested was based off a week of vibration monitoring where the machine was to be installed. Not saying 18 feet would have fixed it, but I can feel our furnace moving slabs sometimes when I sit on the machine.
@@matthewjordan3348Exactly. I work in a roll shop in a hot strip steel mill. We build,maintain and grind the rolls. As a grinder that operates a Herkules KPM roll grinder I can see in real time the profile of the roll for every mm of it. If a furnace stocker drops a bar I can see shape peak out of tolerance because the probes on the caliper moved because the impact. And sometimes when the furnace is pushing bars in the furnace I can feel the skidding that’s happening in the furnace. Needless to say putting the roll shop near the furnace was a bad idea on many fronts and it doesn’t help the furnace we have is a “pusher style” and not a walking beam furnace. The foundation on that machine is 14 feet thick and isolated from the rest of the mill’s floor. The contractor wanted 18 my company said good enough.😂
To be honest? I thought you were pulling my leg. However, in order to refute it scientifically, I had to test it first. The result? Jaw-dropping sound reduction!
Same here! Just got a spare one from my parents in law and placed it minutes ago. Damn!
What foam did you use? If possible a link. Thank you.
I honestly cant believe how large the difference is. Just did it and WOW!
@@baljazz By the looks of the materials in the video you could probably go to a carpet store and ask for a swatch of their thickest underlayment. You'll get something about 8mm-10mm thick, but you can stack up a couple of layers if you want.
" Jaw-dropping sound reduction!"
Duh. Decoupling the noisemaker from the soundboard reduces noise. That's not rocketscience.
This video is amazing and saved my sleep. My printer is in my bedroom on an IKEA bookshelf and it's been keeping me awake during longer prints with noise from the steppers.
I bought a $1.75 concrete paver and some non-slip drawer lining foam I had lying around and now I can finally sleep again! Thank you so much!
Should have invested in waxy earplugs and an eye mask too xD
4:30 The paver is not to distribute the load evenly, it's to add mass which reduces acoustic coupling to air by impedance mismatch.
I think he meant better decoupling by the foam since it won’t be compressed
(Engineer hat on)
@@elyasstephens8242 True; that's what he said. However, the increased inertial mass really attenuates the vibration being transmitted to the foam. F=ma, and all that. For a given force, a higher mass object (concrete) won't move as quickly as a lower mass object (wood), therefore dampening the conducted sound.
Set a printer directly on a concrete floor, and you'll be really close to the limit on how quiet you can make it.
(Engineer hat removed)
@@JamieStuff You remove yours? I can't take mine off. Really irritates people when watching movies ;)
@@JamieStuff good job mate :) well explained!
@@JamieStuff "Set a printer directly on a concrete floor, and you'll be really close to the limit on how quiet you can make it." UNTIL you get it on a pre-stressed concrete unsupported open span - you'll then hear it... this is the same way that you find voids under a sidewalk or driveway - by taking a metal rod and dropping it onto the concrete and listening for the "singing" - unreal until you see it in action... pretty wild stuff. The rod acts as a tuning fork when you hit it on the concrete, and causes the concrete to vibrate above any voids. Granted, if you hear that, it means you have work ahead to repair it (else the concrete will eventually fail there from lack of support)
The concrete if it was floating would make noise - the concrete on another surface (and supported on edges) will be quieter. I agree that the mass is the main thing, but it also has to have a decent support.
If you haven't been in a part of the world where the concrete can get washed out underneath, you may not be aware of it, but this really is a thing.
I'm late to the party on this but in case it helps anyone: I just got a 16x16 paver from Home Depot and four 1 inch circle felt stick on's, one for each corner that the paver sits on. This fits inside my self built lack table enclosure for my Prusa MK3S with about an inch to spare in height inside the enclosure. This has made the printer practically silent, in comparison to how loud it was before. Those hollow lack tables really amplify the sound vibrations, and this solution made a HUGE, and I mean HUGE difference.
something not really being mentioned by anyone is the benifit of thermal mass. i think this is a big deal without an enclosure, but maybe might require running the heated bed for an hour before printing? i think most people would greatly benifit from building enclosures but few seem to notice the benifits, just put a cardboard box over the printer lol
+1 for the Lack + paver crew :D
Won't the concrete flake off and get into the printer?
@@TheGunguy461 ?? Not sure what you mean. The printer sits on the concrete block and it doesn't move and isn't subjected to any stress to cause anything to flake off.
@@PatJones82 First of all, thanks for responding.
Maybe I'm overthinking. I went to Home Depot. When I lightly ran my fingers over the concrete slabs, tiny particles came off. My 3D printer is in an enclosure. With the fan running, I'm worried that the concrete particles will fly around and damage the printer.
A thing to consider is leaving the filament spool out of the printer's frame. It's sprung mass that will add inertia to the system. Having it separated will make it easier to damp the movement.
I have had this for my printer for about six months and the improvement in noise is awesome. Thanks Stefan!
This is a great representation of isolation and dampening when it come to not only 3D printing, but just about anything that moves. A grinder on a table or a generator would be a good example.
Thank you Stefan. You have, once again, presented an incredible example and explanation of engineering principles for the
non-initiated.
This is true, I recently read a study on Hard Drive dampening that showed attaching them to a granite plate (added mass) and dampening below that was way more effective than what most people do (soft rubber dampeners).
It's basically the same setup that worked best in the Stefan's testing, just concrete instead of granite as the mass.
I work as a packaging engineer, and sometimes customers get confused when we add weight to a very sensitive pack. you can't have any cushioning from impact if the item is so lightweight that it bounces right off the packaging!
Unfortunatly he missed the main point: the mass and cosequently the low Eigenfrequency. Actually this is a good example of missunderstood physics. Partially perfect but missing the main point.
It's "damping"
I use a similar setup for my rock tumbler, but I use an old towel instead of foam
Yes. I wish more 3D makers and small cnc makers would take time to understand the principles that cnc machine tool manufacturers spent decades researching and refining. A stable platform is step 1 for anything precise
So ... I shouldn't have my CNC router and 3d printer on a web workbench that shifts backwards once you start looking at it?
@@TheBinklemNetwork 😂
Well, I was so inspired I went to the store. To get a paving slab for each of my two printers... I ended up paving my drive. I am holding you responsible!!! (Also, thanks for great content as ever)
:)
I have pavers that I was parking on.. but screw the car. Im sticking these puppies under my printer.
LOL. I had the same thing happen to me.. Got the paver, some plastidip to coat it... and a ton of concrete and supplies to make a pad to wheel the trash cans on.
Love it! Lol
Did it work?
So - did you get a lower noise level when parking your car?
I know this video is 4 years old but I did this for my Neptune 4 Plus plus attached brackets from my wall and desk and it is now rock solid and no longer shakes. Thanks for sharing this!
"viscoelasticity" is the keyword here :) one of the proper material out there with a great viscoelasticity and perfect to put under your concrete block is "memory foam". Give it a try! Thanks for your work Stefan
@@StavrosKor you need WEIGHT. A steel plate should work too
@@rolandroli2678 Or gold plate. 😂
@@StavrosKor maybe plywood or mdf but wood or steel would probably ring. You could try 2 layers of mdf with a different material in between (constrained layer) but the concrete paver would be a lot easier. Maybe a granite cutoff if there is a counter top place nearby?
@@gabiold I actually spray-painted my concrete slab with gold paint :D
@@anullhandle put vibration resistant adhesive or silicone between the layers of mdf. Learned this from the drywall used in soundproofing a studio.
I just did this and the hardest part was getting the concrete slab home without a car. I'm very pleased with the result. Best quality of life upgrade ever! 👍
was googling this last night and then you posted a video today, brilliant!
Your ball drop tests brought me back to one of my introductory engineering courses where we investigated coefficient of restitution. Very interesting and thorough investigation!
I did this about 2 years ago, and I cannot recommend this enough. Seriously, the amount of noise cancelling a concrete slab does is astounding
Do have to rise it like this ( foam under corners)?
@@riyadh1121 I used part of a yoga mat instead
Instinctively this made sense to
me & was something I planned to do because as an audio engineer, our industry has been doing the same on studio monitors for ages! Heavy blocks, then springy material ☺️ Concrete and foam pads is pretty common! Funnily enough, that‘s also how washing machines deal with vibration - If you‘ve ever opened one up, you‘ll see that the majority of its weight actually comes from a heavy concrete weight on the inside! And then we often put foam pads underneath. Same principle 😁
Thank you for the confirmation!
Sorry to hijack after a year, just getting my slab and foam. Would it be beneficial to leave the whole square of foam intact (I have a 50x50 foam for the 40x40 slab) or cut it up and put it in different corners/spots as shown in the video. Not sure if it still falls under your domain nor if you are still around, but thank you for your answer
Mechanically, all sound is wasted energy (other than in audio speakers, that is). The key to minimizing it is to ensure all motion (momentum, technically) in one direction is balanced by an equal and opposite momentum AS CLOSE TO THE SOURCE OF MOTION AS POSSIBLE. When one side of an axis is held rigid, any imbalance is transmitted through that rigid structure to whatever is supporting it, and so on to the building itself.
Motion in one axis can be coupled to other axes when the imbalance is forced through anything that can act as a lever. The spring supports were horrible at this, converting most X-Y motion into Z motion, with oscillatory bouncing! A better mount would be stiffer and/or more damped in Z, since there relatively little direct imbalance due to the slow Z axis movements.
I remember well when I started applying my embedded real-time programming skills to actuator controls. I designed my software to drive the system well within specs, but when I tested it rigidly mounted to a large concrete test-bed, the mechanism tore itself apart. I next tested it attached to a mass more closely representing its operational load, only to have it shake that apart as well, severing it's mount to the test-bed. Only when I properly isolated the system did I get correct performance, in this case adding mounts that closely matched the mechanical aspects of the fluid dynamics of its intended operational environment. Quite a valuable applied physics lesson for a software engineer!
The same applies to 3D printers, though the goal is to isolate it from the environment without that isolation reflecting unwanted problems back into the 3D printer. Printers with a bed moving laterally will generate the most forceful motion on that axis, with other axes contribution less until you get to the axis carrying the carriage. Carriage motion has the longest path to be conducted to the base, and so can use the other axes to absorb the imbalance, leading to ringing when any mechanical part in that path provides any reasonance.
This gets worse as print speed grows. Fortunately, the same techniques that permit faster printing can also result in less noise! The reverse is also true: techniques that reduce noise can permit faster printing! So let's instead attack this as a single full-system problem.
The best way to reduce momentum imbalance is to reduce either acceleration (and its derivative, jerk) or the mass being accelerated. Which is the one huge reason to switch to a Bowden feed: The extruder drive stepper is no longer part of the moving mass of the carriage, with the added complexity of more difficult filament feed/retract behavior. But there is a middle solution that is nearly as good, if more expensive: Keep the filament feeder on the carriage, but move the stepper away using a flexible drive. The industry standard RepRap design also moves the stepper driving the carriage axis. The general technique of "move no steppers" can be applied further away from the carriage. The CoreXY and Delta are printer architectures having no moving steppers.
That nice for a new printer, but we still must deal with whatever imbalance is left, no matter what printer we have. How? At this point, we need to work with the printer as a whole. The solutions Stefan showed all act at the base, the primary goal being to reduce conducted noise. Can we do better?
We ideally would absorb each imbalance as close to its source as possible. But how to do so while maintaining the mechanical integrity, alignment and performance of the printer as a whole? If you are a printer designer you can add flexibility to the structure that is compensated by a drive system that models, and accounts for, that flexible structure and the applied forces. A great example of such modeling is "melt zone pressure" that is controlled to ensure actual filament flow accounts for variables such as filament composition, filament diameter, melt-zone size, heater capacity, nozzle diameter, and so on, and do so without actually having a pressure sensor at the melt zone. A model is designed then tuned for the print environment, which is what "linear advance" does in Marlin, and is why the Klipper project exists.
We can do similar software modeling for momentum imbalance. Since printers don't change like filament, we don't need a dynamic model: We can solve a static model one time, by separately tuning acceleration and jerk for each axis. I'm presently in the design phase of a project to automate this calibration, by attaching 6-axis IMUs (accelerometers + gyros) to each axis then using a very simple optimization/learning network on a PC or RasPi to null out as much imbalance as possible while still meeting performance/speed goals. (I already did a similar project to isolate my aging body from road vibration when riding my triathlon race bicycle while still providing, and even enhancing, my maximum performance: The feet, butt and hands/elbows were separate paths needing separate solutions, some of which included changing my riding style and bike fit.)
Modeling and software can get us only so far: Whatever imbalance still remains will need to be absorbed external to the printer. But we certainly can crudely model it, and in some cases directly measure it. The imbalances can get complex due to axis coupling as imbalances make their way to the base. There won't be just the linear components due to the motion of each axis, but additional components due to axis coupling.
Wow. This comment got long, and I have other things to get done. I'll end it here. Please comment if you'd like more, and I'll expand this into a blog post that I'll link here.
This was a cool read
BobC /. I always thought I but too much information on my posts. After reading your I’m very impressed with your content. Unfortunately I feel most viewers are not going to take the time to read it.
I for one think most viewers are only on this channel to make short silly comments that most of the time are off topic.
Thank you! You should start a RUclips channel...Now, checking if you already did...
What about adding a mass on the other side of the belt (the one which goes back when the bed go ahead) ? It could give the opposite force, isn't it ? (Sorry for my English)
I'd be interested in your road bike solutions as much as the printer!
I got excited and rushed out to do this without considering the necessity first. I find my ender 3 isn't super loud to begin with and the shelves it sits on top of are narrow and quite solid. Testing before and after mounting on the slab + packing foam, the reduction might be 1-2db, but both were around ~56db. Great video, the fault was mine :)
I'd done similar with some scrap around the house. Used Pelican case foam (harder foam) and scrap granite that I got when a friend re-did their kitchen. It was a night and day difference. Very cool to see the actual test data. I might try and find some softer foam to use with it!
Keep the great content coming.
Great content man! reminder: mass is an important factor on vibrations as well, the stifness, elasticity and the mass of the system. The concrete adds mass, possibly reducing the overall amplitude of vibration.
@@TheRealWurstCase Yeah, probably, a rigid fixture would transfer vibrational energy from the printer to the concrete more efectivelly
Several years ago I noticed that there were imperfections in my layer height each time I leaned on my workbench to look at the printer (an old i3) . I solved this with a large tile placed under it - not as much mass as a concrete paver block, but much more aesthetic and cleanable.
Let me be the umpteenth person to say that this is STUNNINGLY EFFECTIVE 😍 . Thank you so much! I was getting noise transmitted through the floor to the room below, and now that's completely silenced. Brilliant! I happened to have a big chunk of that super-foam left over from when I used to build and fly remote control aeroplanes, we used that stuff to pack around components and it's great. Sadly I couldn't find any pavers for 2 notes, but I did find one for £8 GBP which was within budget for this mod and turned out to be very well worth the expense.
Good job man! always a pleasure. Been using a pizza stone and memory foam myself, but if i had the space I'd try sand like subwoofer isolation. A couple thoughts to drive engagement here in the comments (pardon the messiness, i am typing with a broken hand): an addition for any viewers unfamiliar with decibel scale, know that it is log, not linear, and one Bel (ie. 10 dB) different = 2x perceived loudness change as far as psychoacoustic perception goes, so the ~68dB loudest result is literally more than 2x 'louder' than the ~56dB quietest result (assuming fairly similar spectrum).
Another benefit of decoupling that doesn't show up in weighted SPL comparison is that down beyond the low range of the dBa weighting, low frequency/high amplitude "thump, thump' directional change impacts are also decoupled, which are what used to wake me up during nighttime printing since those are more omnidirectional freq and more easily transmitted by conduction... they are not as "loud" in the human hearing range, but i sleep on a japanese bed, so i could feel it through the floor.
I found you channel, and I like the technical approach to the problems that 3d printers have , also your experience speaks for itself. Keep up the good work!!
get well soon Alex. Now i know why there are no new videos from you..
I tried the sand method by putting the printer in my kitty litter box. Sound improved but left some brown cylindrical artifacts on the print surface... Not sure what happened.
Alex Kenis how do your farts sound
What thickness memory foam? Thoughts of 2" memory foam?
Literally the best 3d printer upgrade, no lie here. My Ender 3 was on a small wood console (floor is a concrete slab on IPN beams). I could hear it from the other room, but I could also feel the micro vibrations. On long prints it was barely bearable. I added a 1 3/8" concrete tile on medium-hard mattress foam. I can still hear the stepper motors from afar but it's way quieter, and absolutely no vibration felt ever since. So simple yet so clever
Won't the concrete flake off and get into the printer?
This is a wonderful exposition! I just wish you had measured the audio from the printer with a spectral analyzer to identify which frequency is contributing most to the resonance, and test whether this frequency is attenuated with via the concrete block.
So this just saved my butt. As I posted a couple days ago, it worked great for my 3d printer... This weekend we got my daughter a small rock tumbler kit. I agreed to have it in the office as we cant put it in her bedroom for days without her messing with it. Now I thought I was smart... we set it up in the closet. Since the room is an office, its never used. Plugged it in and... that was a big mistake. I didnt realize how LOUD rock tumblers are. Now I know you can cover it pretty easily, but that makes it overheat. This has to run a motor turning a barrell for days on end..and heating it up could dry out the slurry inside too.
Listening carefully I realize the sound we hear isnt from the tumbler its the door and walls and everything from the tumbler.
Then I realize.. Stefan! You saved the day for us. I fold up some craft batting (didnt have any foam), put a paver on it and put the tumbler on the paver. Its not silent, but about as loud as the washing machine.. easily ignored and fades into the background.
Thank you!
I liked the bit with "I sometime wear only one" and my left speaker went silent for a second :D
I didnt. It worried me that my headphones broke.
@@beerenmusli8220 I'm deaf in my left year, so I didn't even notice.
Picked one up for mine last year. Difference was like night and day. I put thick felt pads under the slab to try and isolate any extra vibration from reaching the table it's on. Works great :)
I have a small CNC router. I built an MDF enclosure for it and filled the base with fine play sand. When it comes to tools like this, the heavier, the better, not just for noise, but for quality of cut. The sand works a bit like the lead balls in a dead blow hammer.
Compliant (rubber, etc.) is to prevent transmission of vibration. But weight (paver, sand, etc.) is to actually dampen the vibrations. (Edit: you point this out later in the video)
For additional dampening, I recommend fixing the CNC router or 3d printer to the weight. Clamps or screws can help. This couples the weight to the machine, making the whole machine weigh more, and resonate less, assuming it's tightly built. This is usually less necessary for a 3d printer, though.
I also suggested the sand in another comment. And it was the dead blow hammer I use as a meat mallet that was my inspiration.
I already had my printer sitting on a 15mm slab of plywood. I added 4 mm of foam under the printer and 4 mm of foam under the plywood. Blown away by how quiet the printer got (even with Trinamic stepper drivers). Stefan, sehr schön!
When I got my firt printer, i placed it on a very old (~1950), classy and wobbly table. When i was having it renovated i had to place my printer directly on the floor. At first i thought i damaged my printer by moving it. It was much louder and ghosting appeared. When i was printing on the table it was shaking a lot. I guess it absorbed lots of vibrations.
I've just done that on Friday under CR10S I have in our spare office that's used by our homeoffice guys two days a week. Huge improvement in surrounding offices separated only by glass walls. It can't be heard there anymore. Only needed part was to buy that concrete piece and shift the printer feet slightly to fit that 40x40cm I bought. Great and thanks.
One of my "favorite cheap and effective printer upgrades" is a silicone sock. When printing with high temperature materials, a silicone sock can prevent spurious "MINTEMP" and "THERMAL RUNAWAY" error messages. It can also save your heater block and delicate thermistor wires from being ruined by the dreaded blob caused by an unattended long print becoming unstuck.
Interesting! My ender 3 pro came with one installed, but it must have been installed loosely because it snagged on a print and caused a huge blob between the sock and the hot end, extending up the sides to where the filament doesn’t remelt (at least not now that I’ve had to remove the sock). I think your comment has convinced me to clean the hot end off and try reinstalling the sock
I feel like I got a small course in physics. Liked, commented and subscribed
Today my neighbor below came and knocked on my door and asked what that humming sound was. Turns out it's my Anycubic Photon M3 Max standing in an otherwise empty wardrobe, and probably resonated like a speaker when the Z axis moves. I had previously put thick corrugated card board under it to dampen a bit. Now I will take my oversized wooden cutting board instead of the concrete slab and put whatever suitable soft material I can find around the house as feet below the cutting board, until I can get the optimal solution. Really informative.
Thank you very much for an interesting video. I have seen it featured on most of the major electronics-blogs - good job :)
A good rule of thumb is: kill the noise at the source. This goes for both mechanical an electronics engineering. There's a lot of stepper motor damping mounting brackets for sale. How about doing a video on the various types, how much they reduce noise and how they affect the printing quality?
Holy crap this worked... I took it one step further. My wife did not like the idea of a big 16" x 16" paver on her nice desk that my printer rests on. So I bought a can of the dipping style Plasti-Dip and coated the entire paver on all sides with a thick layer. Once dry, the paver is inside a shell of thick soft rubber.
I then put 4 felt pads on the bottom. The rubber seems to help couple it to the cement paver, and provide additional dampening while the concrete works as a mass dampener and the felt pads decouple the whole thing from the desk... and since I bought one with a nice beveled edge, it looks good too. My printer now sits about 2.25" higher ( 57mm) and that also gives me a better view of the printing when seated at my desk nearby.
I used a bouncy ball to test many materials I was able to find like felt, rubber, foam, sponges, cardboard, and piles of paper and I found that stacking towels until it's at least 15mm thick is an excellent dampener. Used towels can be found in any home and can also be bought at thrift stores for next to nothing, so I would personally recommend that.
Interesting. I watched a video from DIY Perks some years ago where he made his own sound dampening wall decoration and when he was trying different materials to damp sounds he founds towels were the best solution too. I’ll go shopping tomorrow for some concrete and towels, wish me luck :)
This is a game changer! So much better. Even just foam and wood block improves things. Family unit is 100% on board with this!
Also worth noting that if you use a soft material like a big sheet of foam, when the printer eventually sinks into it a bit any cooling underneath is severely limited. Some of my printers have a cooling fan that exhausts under the unit, and it's all too easy to block that path. 👍
I just purchased a 18x18 in concrete slab and installed on my printer with some foam in the bottom and it definitely helps with the noise, I wish I knew this years ago! Awesome videos!
Actually this was much more interesting than I thought it would be! Great job!
Best upgrade ever. Quality of my prints is so much better. The sound benefits to this are worth it just in itself. I can now do long prints with out disturbing anyone in the house.
If people are looking for both high density and very firm (a high Indent Load Deflection - I.L.D. number) foam, what you want is "rebonded" foam, which is the type of multicolored foam that Stefan is using in the video. A number of online retailers can offer you this type of foam in custom sizes.
Thank you!
This is an excellent resource and is useful for explaining the concept of damping in a practical application.
Just wanted to point out that 'damping' and 'dampening' are not interchangeable.
Dampening == Making something wet
Damping == Decreasing the amplitude of an oscillation
If you want to know how quiet your printer could be with good sound insulation, just pick it up (from somewhere on the frame that won't snag your fingers!) whilst it's printing. It's a great way to know what kind of noise level you're aiming for. I ended up buying some (not cheap) special foam domes meant to isolate speakers from furniture -- they are calibrated for the speaker's weight (OK, the printer's weight in my case). The difference with my MK2s Prusa (now a MK2.5s) is night-and-day. In normal use it's almost as quiet as my MK3s Prusas. Take those rubber domes away and it's much, much noisier.
You're almost there. You set the slab/paver ON those little isolation domes, then the printer on the slab.
Hello Stefan,
I've bought my concrete paving stone and some upholstery foam from a local hardware store today. I am stunned to hear the difference. It looks quite strange but well the result is great! Luckily they had upholstery foam in the same dimensions as the concrete paver. So I had just to stack them on each and sit the printer on top.
Thank you and keep up the good work!
Best wishes,
Sebastian
Sebastian Span You can paint the paver and foam black to match your printer if you like. Just make sure the paint you use doesn’t dissolve the foam.
Very well explained! I will try using this heavy block under my ender 3 as it's definitely not the most quiet printer, especially with the stock board. Thank you!
Yes! My E3 pro is SO loud!
I have a table with 4 screwed legs so the table is a bit wobbly. For my Ender 3 Pro it worked fine to put a large mousepad under the whole printer. In combination with the silent mainboard upgrade vibrations are 90% gone and not disturbing anymore. The most sound emitting parts are now the PSU fan and the hotend fan which i plan to replace with bigger fans so the airflow remains the same at reduced rpm. Thanks for your nice videos and please keep on, CNC Kitchen :-)
I tried felt pads under my printer, but it was actually a really bad idea. I have a wood frame printer and it's not at all stiff, so it was capable of twisting more and worsened wall print quality, so i removed them. I made a replacement top frame piece which adds two swept back pieces with mount points for two rods. One of the rods just ties things together, and one is basically my filament rack, i put several spools on it. It stiffens the printer somewhat and weighs it down.
Now i have some kind of foam rubber feet under the legs of the IKEA LACK table that the printer sits on. Sure it's not ideal because there is a cavity in the LACK table that can amplify the noise, the top surface is basically a thin piece of hard paper that is supported by a hex cell hard paper lattice on the inside, but it's satisfactory enough, the printer isn't heard outside the room.
I remember in the early days of PC watercooling, people used those Eheim garden pumps, and they're BEASTS, they vibrate quite a bit; so a number of mounting methods were tested, including suspending the pump from bungee cords etc. The best material that has been found, according to several tests, was the orange open-cell foam rubber. OK you know at a home improvement store, where you get those plastic trowel handles? and then you get a variety of pads to go with them, like the black dense foam rubber, and the bright orange fluffy foam? Well the orange stuff. Silent PC enthusiasts also found them to be among the best way to quieten some particularly egregious hard disks from that era. So yeah it's not difficult to obtain, nor expensive, i think it would be good to add to this test.
After watching this video, I used dense foam + furniture felt pads for my SnapMaker. Got great result, thanks.
This video definitely added depth to my understanding on this topic. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Just want to confirm that this quieted my printer down about 75% !!! this was easily the best printer mod ever!
the foam from the packaging from a 3d printer is a good dampener
Yea, and cut them into square feet and not use the whole thing like a barbarian. Keep cutting till it's all gone
Fire hazard - Stefan already discussed it and you weren't paying attention. And, if you use the right kind of foam, it will produce cyanide gas which helps you not worry about the fire
@@ittotaq Barbarians engineer better energy absorption than Neanderthals with a foot fetish.
@@vidznstuff1 wat?
Ultra Nyan I’m not sure we’re meant to know
Just found this excellent video. I was going to do this 3 months ago. Now I will as soon as I get to LOWES and pick up a paver and some foam!
I have filled my Ender 3 frame extrusions with rice for damping in the structure itself, I think this is a good addition to any base damping that is implemented as it will increase the mass as well raising the frames natural frequency.
I am thinking about attaching a tuned mass damper to the frame as well as a future improvement but have yet to get to testing.
@@jimmer411 sand is abrasive to aluminum. think sandblaster from the inside out
That's a great idea, would be interesting to see the real effect, but just as they do it with roller coasters.
@@jimmer411I agree sand would be heavier and fill the gaps better, ideally I would want to use a thick oil as it would fill everywhere, it's far more difficult to seal inside which is my issue with sand aswell.
@@PeakEfficiency maybe expanding foam? Flammable but would get into crevices.
Searched high and low through the comments for this. The added mass of the concrete here is really playing a critical role.
This video was incredibly helpful! I never thought of reducing the noice before, but it is definitely much more pleasant this way! Thanks a lot!
Okay I just made a new 3D printing table with layers of concrete->foam->plywood->concrete and my printer became amazingly silent.
No idea where you can get those materials for $2. 16x16 concrete block alone costs $8 + transportation costs.
I've just started up my Ender 3 again and really appreciate you bringing this issue to light. Great work!
i had my 3d printer hanging from the ceiling with ropes. including a spring on top. most silent setup but a hassle to work on the printer :)
so i am back to soft foam with a plate.
Could be a nice gift for noisy neighbours :D
I love G-code noises, they put me to sleep like a lullaby.
Can I get a link to the dense foam on amazon? need an example.
A friend turned me on to this. and so happy I did!
0:00 I hear that noise coming out of my parents room at night
maybe they are printing something =)
@@TheGFS lol
Their last print took 9 months. They needed to heat the bed for the first few layers
i did this a while ago, it works like a charm! even spray painted the brick black to blend in lol
Okay, but how can we make the 3D printer as *loud* as possible?
This is by far the best mod for my E3. Thank you very much for this video und Alles Gute für die Zukunft.
i use 2 mouse pads stacked on top of each other it works extremely well.
I saw this video a few months ago and coincidentally dug up a bunch of old slate and bricks buried in my back yard by a previous owner. Tried it using the packing material from my CR10S and it works beautifully!
This was a really great, informative video! I rarely watch 3D Printing videos the whole way through but I feel like I learned so much from this!
I placed my rock tumbler (don't have a printer *yet*) on a folded over towel to reduce vibration, no clue why I didn't think of using a high inertia concrete slab. I feel like now, most of your noise problems are due to sound in the air, which you could dampen with at least the back wall being sound absorbent. Love the graphs and the truly scientific experiments!
My fav upgrade is a magnetic print bed for my Ender 3 that made everything so much easier
How does it help being magnetic? I'm a noob.
@@TheRainHarvester no im kinda nub too but it just helps with print removal since I'm printing ppe so it helps to rub glue stick all over the print bed so i don't need to use a raft to adhere the print onto the bed. Also it tends to get stuck so i just peel the print surface of the print bed and the print just unsticks itself lol
@@SpookyBoson but why does it need to be magnetic?
@@TheRainHarvester to secure it. A moving beds is generally a bad idea when printing :)
You fight the noise i embrace it. The whole house hears my prints and they will like it
Those headphones you advertise suck. They don't allow ears to breathe properly. The rest of the video was great !! thank you :)
Audio engineer here: we use a similar idea in a few areas in recording studios. One is the studio itself; the idea is you build an acoustically isolated room within the existing room, put the new floor on massive dampers, and fill the cavity between the inner and outer structures with rockwool. This ensures that any physical vibrations transmitted between them will spend most of their energy in heat and friction, so won't produce enough acoustic energy to be picked up by even very sensitive microphones.
Terrific content as always! Your technical level is perfect.
Thanks for this tip! I just put a heavy slab of soapstone (happened to have the stuff around) and some packing material under my Prusa. The effect is phenomenal. It's like putting on hearing protectors. Amazing.
Sounds great!
I don't need to see this to know it's good from the first 5 seconds.
Agree. Great idea, and I love these videos, but this was a bit long. Rigidly mount the printer to a heavy solid mass, the concrete block, to reduce the resonant frequencies of the system. Then decouple that with a dampened spring. If the table vibrates, I'd switch to a heavier, stronger table.
I agree that you don’t need more than 5 seconds to see this method works. But Stefan has more of a scientific method/style for his videos, which I appreciate. I think the benefit of this long winded video is that you could improve on his method, because he explains the problem and solutions in depth.
His channel gets to the point and are backed with solid numbers and statistics, love it
Just got my first printer & have no idea what I’m doing but am greatful for your input this will b my first move setting up thank you for great vid
11:24 is that a wedding ring??
Well noticed. Corona Lock-Down Wedding... That's something I can tell my kids later.
@@CNCKitchen Congratulations 🎉
@@CNCKitchen Nice! Congrats man!
I thought the right hand was common in many European countries?
@@court2379 It is, AFAIK mainly in the GErman speaking countries.
This was very informative, I currently have my printer on a wire shelf which has wheels, it is causing the whole shelf to wabble around, but that is absorbing the vibration a bit. I plan to put foam below and a piece of coroplast ontop of the foam, and reinforce the wire shelf a little at the top to keep it from wabbling, while putting some felt below the wheels so it can more around a little, because most of the noise is in the wheels grinding onto the wooden floor.
really enjoying the video, thanks
I made some silicone feed for my printer, combine with some TMC2209 I cant hear anything. sometimes I thing the printer is not even running
I upgraded to a silent board and I check my printer way more often because I think its not printing.
Noctua fans?
I have my CR10-S5 sitting on a large piece of 1/2” tempered glass which used to be a table-top. I have 5” machined aluminum risers on each corner epoxied to the glass and connected to each foot of the printer. I know that’s not realistic for many people to have setup, but sometimes it’s good to be a machinist. Try Craigslist for a small cheap outdoor table if you like the look of glass. It’s extremely heavy and stops reverberations. This allows me to reach under the printer to adjust the bed better than just using the larger adjusting knobs. It’s very handy to be able to make adjustments while running a large dialing pattern to dial in the bed just right. You cant beat a large mass securing the base. There is a reason CNC machines require a large, deep concrete slab extending through the floor. This is a great idea on the cheap for smaller printers though.
I like the sound of my printer it helps me sleep especially with cricles, so does the whole family
Damping = absorbing energy or force
Dampening = making something moist
Not the same thing...
According to the dictionary, "Dampening" could mean both things. But damping only means absorbing energy or a force.
Engage the inertial dampeners!
*throws a bucket of water on you*
You're underselling yourself. When you go from 60 to 50 decibels it looks like you've reduced volume by 1/6th, but since decibels are on a log scale, every 10 points down halves the volume.
If you do another video about noise it might be worth graphing on a log scale so people can see the huge the difference you've made. It's actually really impressive.
I tried several decoupling solutions and the best for now are feet with squash balls.
@@xKenn I didn't try concrete but I tried several different foam based decouplers and they all worked in the beginning but went flat after a couple of weeks or months. Also they had the problem that the unevenly distributed weight of the printer flattened the foam on one side more than on the other. I tried to compensate for that by adding more layers on the more compressed side but it never got to a steady state with a level printer.
You can try these as well, they are pretty cheap and fully 3d printable.
ruclips.net/video/2p4lFFAz-jg/видео.html
Would love to see a comparison of the foam/concrete in this vid, the squash balls and the item in Fedellando's link.
@@myketheoneill Maybe a combination of the mass of the concrete plate and the damping of the squash ball could really come together if you cinched those two up with some hose clamps, or a similar tensioning device. I think that would probably work really well. The machine needs something to pull against right?
This is BY FAR the best 3D printing channel. Keep being the best dude, we love you!!!
Tennis ball feet on my Kossel style.
Same here, they cut the noise and ringing down nicely. Also added the stepper motor dampeners and with both the most noticeable sound is now the faint whirr of the cooling blower
A neighbour left an aged parasol base beside their driveway. After it wasn't collected for a couple of months, I took it, drilled out the wobbly steel upright, cleaned up the slab, slipped it under my printer, and it made a world of difference.
At 600x600x30mm it's a perfect base for my Ender 3 v2, and being decorative granite, the top side is highly polished, so no cable abrasion, and the printers rubber feet still grip it nicely.
It's good to know that my instincts were right on this, though I might now have to play with what I put under the granite slab to improve things even more.
Hello, what exactly is this foam part (partical foam) ? cant find anything in germany (or how its called) only those rubber mat for a washing machine
The particle foam that he used is used as carpet padding in the USA. For flooring applications, it is usually
It called "Verbundsschaumstoff" and it's thicker than 2cm. Almost 5 or maybe 7cm.
I'm more for a hybrid solution.. paver with felt pads as shown, but using multiple thicknesses to tune an additional softer foam to approximately 1/3rd total compression. Excellent video!
Does anybody know how the foam is callled and where to buy it?
I only find way to soft foam
high density foam. reupholsters shops should have it.
Speaking of accelerations causing issues, a change in velocity is called acceleration. A change in acceleration is called jerk. A change in jerk is called jounce.
Cura lets you change the maximum allowable acceleration and jerk, and in my experience this doesnt add that much time to most prints. This can be a way to tune out the lower vibration noises from the slicer if you struggle with hearing your printer from the other room.
Haha. Never heard of jounce before. Thanks for the info.
I use toilet paper rolls for dampening.
That's perfect but currently probably more expensive than a new house.
@@CNCKitchen Nah, the "hoarding hype" has ended, TP is back in stock pretty much everywhere.
"Damping". Device is a "damper". A dampener is a garden hose.
I have a MK2.5s I've borrowed from work (to help printing frames for PPE visors) and the sound insulation I'm using is a single piece of toilet paper, folded multiple times into a square - one under each foot. Works really well :D
Where do you put them? Do you mean a couple rolls under the printer or around each stepper? Are they empty or still covered?
Just did this to my Ender 3, with 5015 fan noctua cooling fans and Tmc2208 she is just about silent. Though I think that putting a slab of concrete was really the best bang for the buck upgrade the difference is really noticeable Thanks!
hab schon seit 3 Jahren so eine betonplatte drunter. Absolute Empfehlung. hab aber 4€ bezahlt, dafür eine hübsche genommen :-)
gibts´s sowas einfach im Baumarkt? Und nutzt du auch eine Matte darunter?
@@dz7974 Kannst alles beim Bauhaus bekommen. Kostet so um die 6€ am ende.
@@dz7974 Gibt's in jedem Baumarkt und nennt sich Gehwegplatte, 50cm*50cm
Aber hol dir den Flockenverbund Schaum Stoff. Der ist langlebiger.
Hab Squash Bälle unter 2 Druckern. Funktioniert super. Jedoch werde ich jetzt nach diesem Video wohl doch den hässlichen, schweren, harten, klobigen Weg beschreiten und sämtliche Drucker auf Beton stellen. Ich probiere es mal aus. Jedoch waren die Dunlop Squash Bälle (2 gelbe Punkte müssen die haben, falls es jemand macht) nicht ganz billig 🙈